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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Purge: Election Year

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Purge: Election Year

Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn said he ‘fear[ed]some of his supporters may have been “unfairly” barred from voting in the party’s leadership election. He has handed a list of names to party officials, saying he wants a “fair and open” contest, with all those eligible to take part able to do so.’

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Comments

  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited August 2016
    1st - like Clinton
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Second like Team GB :sunglasses:
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    RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 110
    Smith's odds have come in from around 7 to 5.9 just today on Betfair. Maybe TSE isn't the only one to think these thoughts.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    I would have been first but I couldn't find any spare seats around here. Got to be two together for me and the invisible woman.
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    The number excluded will be miniscule as a % of total electorate.

    Seem to recall that last year about 3,000 were excluded for views not compatible with Labour party / membership of other parties.

    NB. Far, far more were excluded for duplication (ie Registered Supporters who were already members etc) or not being on the electoral register - but that's another matter. About 40,000 who signed up this time as Registered Supporters were excluded for these reasons.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Given this extract, a book I won't be reading

    Marie le Conte
    oh my god this extract from Ed Balls's book https://t.co/czTrL8SnYT https://t.co/fJe82b1kdh
  • Options
    Apparently the Foo Fighters fan used to be something called a Liberal Democrat....never heard of them, are they some extremist grouping? Could that be the reason for her expulsion?
  • Options
    MontyMonty Posts: 346
    Can't see anything other than a Corbyn victory, but if the margin is narrow it wouldn't surprise me. Corbyn has looked increasingly inept lately even by his standards.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Apparently the Foo Fighters fan used to be something called a Liberal Democrat....never heard of them, are they some extremist grouping?

    Imagine a sandal, and a sock, stamping on your face. Forever...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    edited August 2016

    Smith's odds have come in from around 7 to 5.9 just today on Betfair. Maybe TSE isn't the only one to think these thoughts.

    Indeed, Smith's pledge to scrap tuition fees today coupled with his pro EU stance and promise to restore the 50% top tax rate and fight austerity shows he is going all out to appeal to the Labour membership and in my view his Corbynlite policies delivered with more competence than Corbyn gives him a real chance of victory. There may even be a new yougov tonight
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Apparently the Foo Fighters fan used to be something called a Liberal Democrat....never heard of them, are they some extremist grouping?

    Imagine a sandal, and a sock, stamping on your face. Forever...
    Somebody wearing and sandals with socks you say...aren't they banned on French beaches?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    FPT
    malcolmg said:

    You didn't listen in class then?

    You know her subject, surely?

    Music and Drama I believe, though not an expert.
  • Options
    theakestheakes Posts: 842
    It is about time somebody subitted that Corbyn is the better candidate, which he clearly is. I have said so many times I am not a Labour supporter, too right of centre, but this seemingly endless boring effort to demote him is now bordering on the ridiculous. The only problem he has is not just falling under 60% of the vote, all the signs are that he will hit between 60 & 66%. Come on TSE lighten up.
    To me this represents another effort to make the party a broad church, some may not like the left side of broad, but that is life. The Labour vote has been holding under his reign. Why Labour nationally keeps trying to stop people voting is becoming implausible. The way to slow the left down is for the party to get nehind him and do things in a subtle way, up to now they have tried to destroy the castle rather than work within it, and maintain its standing and appeal
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Miss Plato, it's sometimes irksome that rubbish writers with famous names get such a headstart over more talented, and handsome, writers.

    Besides, if anyone wants to read of a self-absorbed charlatan they should check The Adventures of Sir Edric on Amazon. It's much better-written, and the money goes to me instead of Balls.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    malcolmg said:

    You didn't listen in class then?

    You know her subject, surely?

    Music and Drama I believe, though not an expert.

    Tsk, dragging a meaningless spat over to a new thread.

    Yellow card.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Roman legionaries in Britain used to wear socks with their sandals.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Miss Plato, it's sometimes irksome that rubbish writers with famous names get such a headstart over more talented, and handsome, writers.

    Besides, if anyone wants to read of a self-absorbed charlatan they should check The Adventures of Sir Edric on Amazon. It's much better-written, and the money goes to me instead of Balls.

    By chance, do you have a link or a blog? :wink:
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Roman legionaries in Britain used to wear socks with their sandals.

    Does anyone still darn socks? I used to a very long time ago.
  • Options
    Apparently Turkey are blocking Facebook, Youtube, and Twitter again.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited August 2016
    Mr. Urquhart, that's what a victory for democracy looks like...

    Miss Plato, I've darned socks in the past. Should probably do it again, actually. Also mended the hems (is that the right word?) on jeans before.

    And yes :D

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK/

    Edited extra bit: there are many reasons PBers should buy the above book.
    1) Ensures the Morris Dancer Food Fund has sufficient fish food for the enormo-haddock.
    2) Mirth decreases stress, lowering the chance of heart attack. Stay safe and buy today!
    3) Excellent opportunity to laugh at the ridiculousness of old-fashioned right-wing hierarchical types.
    4) Excellent opportunity to laugh at ridiculousness of new-fangled over-sensitive political correctness.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    malcolmg said:

    You didn't listen in class then?

    You know her subject, surely?

    Music and Drama I believe, though not an expert.

    Who are we talking about ?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    Music and Drama I believe, though not an expert.

    Drama indeed.

    HOW VERY DARE YOU accuse me of not paying attention in class...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    theakes said:

    It is about time somebody subitted that Corbyn is the better candidate, which he clearly is. I have said so many times I am not a Labour supporter, too right of centre, but this seemingly endless boring effort to demote him is now bordering on the ridiculous. The only problem he has is not just falling under 60% of the vote, all the signs are that he will hit between 60 & 66%. Come on TSE lighten up.
    To me this represents another effort to make the party a broad church, some may not like the left side of broad, but that is life. The Labour vote has been holding under his reign. Why Labour nationally keeps trying to stop people voting is becoming implausible. The way to slow the left down is for the party to get nehind him and do things in a subtle way, up to now they have tried to destroy the castle rather than work within it, and maintain its standing and appeal

    The Labour vote has been holding? Most polls have Corbyn doing worse than Ed Miliband and Labour has now even fallen behind the Tories in Scotland with Ruth Davidson having taken the mantle of the Unionist leader north of the border
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    surbiton said:

    Who are we talking about ?

    Elaine C Smith
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    PlatoSaid said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    malcolmg said:

    You didn't listen in class then?

    You know her subject, surely?

    Music and Drama I believe, though not an expert.

    Tsk, dragging a meaningless spat over to a new thread.

    Yellow card.
    I beg your pardon, we are having a conversation. Red card for you.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Urquhart, that's what a victory for democracy looks like...

    Miss Plato, I've darned socks in the past. Should probably do it again, actually. Also mended the hems (is that the right word?) on jeans before.

    And yes :D

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK/

    Edited extra bit: there are many reasons PBers should buy the above book.
    1) Ensures the Morris Dancer Food Fund has sufficient fish food for the enormo-haddock.
    2) Mirth decreases stress, lowering the chance of heart attack. Stay safe and buy today!
    3) Excellent opportunity to laugh at the ridiculousness of old-fashioned right-wing hierarchical types.
    4) Excellent opportunity to laugh at ridiculousness of new-fangled over-sensitive political correctness.

    I waste so much time here and watching pulp TV that I've recharged my Kindle several times - and still haven't read Sir Edric yet and bought it months ago. Road to Hell paved and all that...


    *goes off to find Kindle charger...*
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    Music and Drama I believe, though not an expert.

    Drama indeed.

    HOW VERY DARE YOU accuse me of not paying attention in class...
    I thought you would be doing drama, bet you had pigails as well :smiley:
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    malcolmg said:

    You didn't listen in class then?

    You know her subject, surely?

    Music and Drama I believe, though not an expert.

    Who are we talking about ?
    Elaine C Smith
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Miss Plato, hope you enjoy it (but shan't be offended if not. Most reviews have been very positive, one did dislike its old-fashioned approach).
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Is the biggest year ever for political popcorn? Labour couldn't even keep a silly season story off the front pages last week, up against an actual earthquake!
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    Miss Plato, it's sometimes irksome that rubbish writers with famous names get such a headstart over more talented, and handsome, writers.

    Besides, if anyone wants to read of a self-absorbed charlatan they should check The Adventures of Sir Edric on Amazon. It's much better-written, and the money goes to me instead of Balls.

    MD, don't answer if you think cheeky , but , do you manage to make a living with your writing or do you have to do other things to supplement.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    Scott_P said:

    Apparently the Foo Fighters fan used to be something called a Liberal Democrat....never heard of them, are they some extremist grouping?

    Imagine a sandal, and a sock, stamping on your face. Forever...
    Somebody wearing and sandals with socks you say...aren't they banned on French beaches?
    should be , worst faux pas apart from a man bag.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. G, it's difficult now. Things will likely come to a head in the nearish future. On the plus side, I've got the trilogy lined up (book 1 done, book 2 almost done, about 1/4 into draft 1 of book 3) plus one completed and one roughly half-completed sequel to Sir Edric, so if things are even so-so I can churn out new novels yearly until the next election.

    It's tough, though.

    I did have work writing something else [don't want to go into detail, it was just boring news stuff] on a part-time basis but that folded for technical reasons. Ironically, the only area I'm exceeding expectations is gambling. My total funds in accounts have roughly tripled since 2009, and that's with the initial deposits long since withdrawn. Small sums, alas, but there we are.

    [I might shove together a beginner's guide to F1 betting to self-publish, if I have the time].

    Don't be fooled by Mr. T's success. It's very difficult, especially with sci-fi/fantasy (which are still seen as niche genres) to make anything approaching a living.

    Anyway, got a story in a fantasy anthology early next year, and one of the other contributors (Adrian Tchaikovsky[sp]) recently won an award, so that (and a few other pretty big names) should help sales, and I'm hoping that, in turn, will help drive readers from that to Kingdom Asunder, which should be out late this year/early next.

    Ahem, I apologise for banging on about this. I think a bit of self-promotion is ok, but I don't want to go overboard, so I'll stop rambling about this [and confine my rambling to F1]. The pre-race piece is mostly done, but the markets are still half asleep.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    The fact Smith is the only alternative candidate and is positioning himself to the left of Burnham and Cooper, let alone Kendall means it could be close
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    If they do that they'll take the subset of the 45% of Independence supporters who both dislike the SNP (who would be more trusted otherwise on both competence and independence) and are very left wing.

    What share of the 45% of the vote that backed independence do you think will switch to Labour if they do as you propose?
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    Thoughts on why we have not had a poll of Labour Party members since the one that Included Angela Eagle? I have been polled, as a Party member, twice in the past month, but the results of these polls has not been made public. Maybe whoever paid for the polls didn't like the results they gave.

    If I had backed Corbyn heavily, I would be more than a little concerned at "the purge" of Labour members. Certainly would appear that some Corbyn supporters are being banned for the flimsiest of reasons. If Corbyn wins, Party officials responsible for the bans are likely to face a backlash. Which begs the question, why would they risk losing their jobs if the numbers involved are not likely to make much of a difference to the result? Fot that reason, they must feel that banning members is likely to have a reasonable chance of stopping Corbyn.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    malcolmg said:

    Miss Plato, it's sometimes irksome that rubbish writers with famous names get such a headstart over more talented, and handsome, writers.

    Besides, if anyone wants to read of a self-absorbed charlatan they should check The Adventures of Sir Edric on Amazon. It's much better-written, and the money goes to me instead of Balls.

    MD, don't answer if you think cheeky , but , do you manage to make a living with your writing or do you have to do other things to supplement.
    Interesting question malcolmg.

    I'd observe as a reader that MD certainly *deserves* to be rewarded with a comfortable income based on his considerable talent.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    edited August 2016
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    If you want independence you will vote for the SNP not Labour SNPlite, if you want the Union you will vote Tory, if you want left of SNP you can vote Green, hence Scottish Labour is in such a hole
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    They are just seen as Tory helpers now so finished, majority on left oer wanting independence have gone SNP and teh middle class have goneTory or Greens. Currently they serve no purpose whatsoever or than to help Tories.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited August 2016
    Mr. M, 'deserves' is nice but you get what you get. Craterus deserved a leading role in the Diadochi wars.

    F1: looking like one of those weekends where I have a thousand potential bets and difficulty picking one. Hmm.

    Edited extra bit: and thanks :)
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Douglas Murray adds his 2p

    "...Nevertheless, from the Middle East outwards there has been a significant regression in recent decades away from all freer forms of female attire. Forty years ago, the burqa was a rare sight in Afghanistan. Today it dominates.

    In the same way, within the lifetime of most readers the Islamic headscarf was comparatively rare in North Africa. Now it has become commonplace – indeed it is becoming a statement not to wear one. The same regression is happening in Turkey and across Europe. Globally Islam is becoming more puritanical and one of the first signs of this, always, is the suppression of women’s freedom..."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/26/from-cannes-to-bavaria-politicians-fiddle-with-burkini-bans-whil/
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    GeoffM said:

    malcolmg said:

    Miss Plato, it's sometimes irksome that rubbish writers with famous names get such a headstart over more talented, and handsome, writers.

    Besides, if anyone wants to read of a self-absorbed charlatan they should check The Adventures of Sir Edric on Amazon. It's much better-written, and the money goes to me instead of Balls.

    MD, don't answer if you think cheeky , but , do you manage to make a living with your writing or do you have to do other things to supplement.
    Interesting question malcolmg.

    I'd observe as a reader that MD certainly *deserves* to be rewarded with a comfortable income based on his considerable talent.
    I am always impressed that people can write books but imagine that unless you have a best seller it is hard to make a good living.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    If they do that they'll take the subset of the 45% of Independence supporters who both dislike the SNP (who would be more trusted otherwise on both competence and independence) and are very left wing.

    What share of the 45% of the vote that backed independence do you think will switch to Labour if they do as you propose?
    Probably less than the remaining Scottish Labour voting unionists who will switch to the Tories, LDs or UKIP
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    If they do that they'll take the subset of the 45% of Independence supporters who both dislike the SNP (who would be more trusted otherwise on both competence and independence) and are very left wing.

    What share of the 45% of the vote that backed independence do you think will switch to Labour if they do as you propose?
    Philip, I have no idea. They are so unpopular now it is hard to see them coming back in the mid term.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,744

    Roman legionaries in Britain used to wear socks with their sandals.

    Well, not all were Italian but i imagine many would have found things chilly. And wasn't Britain mostly dank forest and swamp back then?

    On topic, I've not seen The Purge: Election Year. The Purge: Anarchy was good.
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    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    They are just seen as Tory helpers now so finished, majority on left oer wanting independence have gone SNP and teh middle class have goneTory or Greens. Currently they serve no purpose whatsoever or than to help Tories.
    Other than not being the SNP how do they help the Tories? If anything they split the unionist vote with the Tories leaving the field wide open for the SNP to hoover up the military of Indyref supporters to form a government.

    If the SNP and Labour were splitting the Indyref vote and the Tories were hoovering up the unionist vote, then that would help the Tories.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    Mr. G, it's difficult now. Things will likely come to a head in the nearish future. On the plus side, I've got the trilogy lined up (book 1 done, book 2 almost done, about 1/4 into draft 1 of book 3) plus one completed and one roughly half-completed sequel to Sir Edric, so if things are even so-so I can churn out new novels yearly until the next election.

    It's tough, though.

    I did have work writing something else [don't want to go into detail, it was just boring news stuff] on a part-time basis but that folded for technical reasons. Ironically, the only area I'm exceeding expectations is gambling. My total funds in accounts have roughly tripled since 2009, and that's with the initial deposits long since withdrawn. Small sums, alas, but there we are.

    [I might shove together a beginner's guide to F1 betting to self-publish, if I have the time].

    Don't be fooled by Mr. T's success. It's very difficult, especially with sci-fi/fantasy (which are still seen as niche genres) to make anything approaching a living.

    Anyway, got a story in a fantasy anthology early next year, and one of the other contributors (Adrian Tchaikovsky[sp]) recently won an award, so that (and a few other pretty big names) should help sales, and I'm hoping that, in turn, will help drive readers from that to Kingdom Asunder, which should be out late this year/early next.

    Ahem, I apologise for banging on about this. I think a bit of self-promotion is ok, but I don't want to go overboard, so I'll stop rambling about this [and confine my rambling to F1]. The pre-race piece is mostly done, but the markets are still half asleep.

    Thanks MD, I thought it would be tough for such hard work as well.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. kle4, my understanding is that the forests (as a percentage of the country) haven't really changed much in thousands of years.

    It probably was damp and chilly for the Romans.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
    If Smith wins it will be narrowly and only because he ran on a Corbynlite platform, having the endorsement of MPs and members Smith would then certainly lead Labour into the next general election regardless of what happens and if Labour lose again that would be the time for Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis etc to put their hats into the ring
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,744



    Don't be fooled by Mr. T's success. It's very difficult, especially with sci-fi/fantasy (which are still seen as niche genres) to make anything approaching a living.

    .

    No kidding. Niche genre, but also oversaturated. I imagine you have to be very good, original and lucky to get a look in.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    They are just seen as Tory helpers now so finished, majority on left oer wanting independence have gone SNP and teh middle class have goneTory or Greens. Currently they serve no purpose whatsoever or than to help Tories.
    Other than not being the SNP how do they help the Tories? If anything they split the unionist vote with the Tories leaving the field wide open for the SNP to hoover up the military of Indyref supporters to form a government.

    If the SNP and Labour were splitting the Indyref vote and the Tories were hoovering up the unionist vote, then that would help the Tories.
    Perception is that they are just Tories pretending to be labour , they have been seen to be Tories front men in the referendum and ar emost unpopular.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    edited August 2016

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    They are just seen as Tory helpers now so finished, majority on left oer wanting independence have gone SNP and teh middle class have goneTory or Greens. Currently they serve no purpose whatsoever or than to help Tories.
    Other than not being the SNP how do they help the Tories? If anything they split the unionist vote with the Tories leaving the field wide open for the SNP to hoover up the military of Indyref supporters to form a government.

    If the SNP and Labour were splitting the Indyref vote and the Tories were hoovering up the unionist vote, then that would help the Tories.
    The Greens split the independence vote somewhat at the last Holyrood election
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: perusing things (and I think I will be a while) but if you fancy Verstappen to win outright, he's 6. But a Dutchman is 7 (nationality of winning driver market on Ladbrokes).
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,081
    edited August 2016

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    It's much too late now but they could have carved out a position as THE Devo Max party with a credible position on maximum powers for Scotland within the Union, reflecting the stated views of Gordon 'Federalism' Brown. As things stand, in the post referendum more powers dickering SLab were arguing for substantially less powers than the SCons. If SLab did an about turn now they'd just look like convictionless headless chickens (not that that would necessarily stop them).
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Divvie, isn't Scottish Labour's problem that they're going to look like the Diet Coke version of either the SNP or the Scottish Conservatives?
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Smith's odds have come in from around 7 to 5.9 just today on Betfair. Maybe TSE isn't the only one to think these thoughts.

    I think it is TSE.

    The market is so light that any extra betting caused by TSE's article is enough to shift the odds.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Owen Smith wants to scrap tuition fees and have a graduate tax on those earning over £15,000:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37204996
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Apparently Turkey are blocking Facebook, Youtube, and Twitter again.

    I wish we would block twitter.....
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
    If Smith wins it will be narrowly and only because he ran on a Corbynlite platform, having the endorsement of MPs and members Smith would then certainly lead Labour into the next general election regardless of what happens and if Labour lose again that would be the time for Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis etc to put their hats into the ring
    Possibly so but Smith is no heavyweight - an MP of six years with no experience in government, no great experience before parliament, and a nondescript time in the Shadow Cabinet. Will he be given the chance to succeed? Perhaps so: Labour's history has been tolerant of underperforming leaders but I wonder whether that period has no passed, it having been tested to destruction this last year. I don't see Smith being forced out but if he polls badly, there'll be calls for him to go and for someone with more experience to take over.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600
    HYUFD said:

    Smith's odds have come in from around 7 to 5.9 just today on Betfair. Maybe TSE isn't the only one to think these thoughts.

    Indeed, Smith's pledge to scrap tuition fees today coupled with his pro EU stance and promise to restore the 50% top tax rate and fight austerity shows he is going all out to appeal to the Labour membership and in my view his Corbynlite policies delivered with more competence than Corbyn gives him a real chance of victory. There may even be a new yougov tonight
    I was polled (as a Labour member) by YouGov on Tuesday. The June YouGov members poll was compiled over a four day fieldwork period so if nothing appears by tonight I think it must have been a privately commissioned poll.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2016

    Owen Smith wants to scrap tuition fees and have a graduate tax on those earning over £15,000:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37204996

    That's not going to gain him any votes though, the problem for Smith is that he is crappier than Corbyn.

    After 3 months campaigning, a promise on tuition fees reminds me of Cameron desperately campaigning for students to vote for him in the referendum.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    They are just seen as Tory helpers now so finished, majority on left oer wanting independence have gone SNP and teh middle class have goneTory or Greens. Currently they serve no purpose whatsoever or than to help Tories.
    Other than not being the SNP how do they help the Tories? If anything they split the unionist vote with the Tories leaving the field wide open for the SNP to hoover up the military of Indyref supporters to form a government.

    If the SNP and Labour were splitting the Indyref vote and the Tories were hoovering up the unionist vote, then that would help the Tories.
    The Greens split the independence vote somewhat at the last Holyrood election
    The SNP are only interested in a pro-independence majority in Scotland. Them suggesting that Labour should support Indy is so nakedly transparent.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,081
    edited August 2016

    Mr. Divvie, isn't Scottish Labour's problem that they're going to look like the Diet Coke version of either the SNP or the Scottish Conservatives?

    Probably, but that's where you end up if you lack convictions, or at least change them with every moon phase.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
    If Smith wins it will be narrowly and only because he ran on a Corbynlite platform, having the endorsement of MPs and members Smith would then certainly lead Labour into the next general election regardless of what happens and if Labour lose again that would be the time for Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis etc to put their hats into the ring
    I haven't seen or heard or read anything that has changed my opinion of a Corbyn victory by a margin of 2-1 over Smith, something that I have held since the beginning.

    Smith has done a terrible campaign, really bad debate performances, his own campaign is starting to admit defeat (though they are keeping the line of "it's closer that you think").

    The 34% of Labour voters who don't think Corbyn told the truth about Trains and the 29% who say May is a better PM are probably close to what Smith is going to get.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    It's much too late now but they could have carved out a position as THE Devo Max party with a credible position on maximum powers for Scotland within the Union, reflecting the stated views of Gordon 'Federalism' Brown. As things stand, in the post referendum more powers dickering SLab were arguing for substantially less powers than the SCons. If SLab did an about turn now they'd just look like convictionless headless chickens (not that that would necessarily stop them).
    I'd agree with that. But that's why they need to stick as a pro-Union (of some nature) party. With the SNP now camped firmly on the left, and the Greens also as a left-wing pro-independence party, there's no space for Labour to fill. There is, however, space for a pro-Union left-of-centre party.

    Scottish Labour's long-term problem (leaving aside their personnel and UK party troubles), is that having dropped to third, they're now stuck between backing the SNP (which makes them largely irrelevant, apart from on the independence question) and backing the Tories (which makes them disliked).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    edited August 2016

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
    If Smith wins it will be narrowly and only because he ran on a Corbynlite platform, having the endorsement of MPs and members Smith would then certainly lead Labour into the next general election regardless of what happens and if Labour lose again that would be the time for Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis etc to put their hats into the ring
    Possibly so but Smith is no heavyweight - an MP of six years with no experience in government, no great experience before parliament, and a nondescript time in the Shadow Cabinet. Will he be given the chance to succeed? Perhaps so: Labour's history has been tolerant of underperforming leaders but I wonder whether that period has no passed, it having been tested to destruction this last year. I don't see Smith being forced out but if he polls badly, there'll be calls for him to go and for someone with more experience to take over.
    Compared to Corbyn a mouldy cabbage would be heavyweight and Labour is not exactly full of heavyweight alternatives to Smith either which was why he was the candidate in the first place. If Smith wins he has a mandate from the membership and MPs, end of and arguably no Labour leader has really had that since Blair (Ed Miliband lost the MPs vote and Brown never won the membership) Smith would be in a very powerful position.

    Umunna and Jarvis would be insane to take the Labour leadership and lose to May in 2020 which is why they will let Smith do it instead. They would aim to be Cameron to Smith's Howard, having got rid of Corbyn, their IDS
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    nunu said:

    Apparently Turkey are blocking Facebook, Youtube, and Twitter again.

    I wish we would block twitter.....
    But what would Scott_P do instead?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
    If Smith wins it will be narrowly and only because he ran on a Corbynlite platform, having the endorsement of MPs and members Smith would then certainly lead Labour into the next general election regardless of what happens and if Labour lose again that would be the time for Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis etc to put their hats into the ring
    I haven't seen or heard or read anything that has changed my opinion of a Corbyn victory by a margin of 2-1 over Smith, something that I have held since the beginning.

    Smith has done a terrible campaign, really bad debate performances, his own campaign is starting to admit defeat (though they are keeping the line of "it's closer that you think").

    The 34% of Labour voters who don't think Corbyn told the truth about Trains and the 29% who say May is a better PM are probably close to what Smith is going to get.
    Smith isn't Smith. Smith is Not-Corbyn. Smith might well be useless but Corbyn is not only demonstrably useless but is content to risk wrecking his own party into the bargain, in pursuit of his 'ideals'. The worst that Smith offers is a sound defeat in 2020; Corbyn risks Labour's annihilation. It's that which is his appeal to the Labour selectorate.
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 898
    Solar power wouldn't be much use in darkest Leicestershire this afternoon. Torrential rain and thunder and lightening.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    edited August 2016
    Speedy said:

    Owen Smith wants to scrap tuition fees and have a graduate tax on those earning over £15,000:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37204996

    That's not going to gain him any votes though, the problem for Smith is that he is crappier than Corbyn.

    After 3 months campaigning, a promise on tuition fees reminds me of Cameron desperately campaigning for students to vote for him in the referendum.
    Coupled with a more pro European message than Corbyn, a promise to fight austerity and restore the 50% top tax rate Corbyn has a package designed to appeal to the Labour membership
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Icarus, fitting that you, of all people, point out a problem with the sun :p
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Icarus said:

    Solar power wouldn't be much use in darkest Leicestershire this afternoon. Torrential rain and thunder and lightening.

    It's pretty overcast here in W Yorks at the moment but our panels are still generating 600W (out of a maximum of something like 3.5kW). Sure, that's less than 20% of capacity but it's more than enough to power the house at the moment.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    50 for Joe Root in the Lords ODI
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: got one bet in mind. Agonising over a potential second. The pre-race piece is largely written, just waiting for me to try and make my mind up. So it might be a while.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Sandpit said:



    The SNP are only interested in a pro-independence majority in Scotland. Them suggesting that Labour should support Indy is so nakedly transparent.

    The problem for Labour in scotland was that it was too right wing and disconnected from it's local base, the SNP saw that and latched to it.

    Now due to FPTP it's too late to save scottish Labour, but the SNP moving left means that is losing to it's right towards the Tories.

    For a recovery in scotland, S.Labour needs 3 things to happen simultaneously and for the long term:

    1. A left wing local leader.
    2. The SNP moving right to counter the Tories.
    3. Oil prices to be low.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    It's much too late now but they could have carved out a position as THE Devo Max party with a credible position on maximum powers for Scotland within the Union, reflecting the stated views of Gordon 'Federalism' Brown. As things stand, in the post referendum more powers dickering SLab were arguing for substantially less powers than the SCons. If SLab did an about turn now they'd just look like convictionless headless chickens (not that that would necessarily stop them).
    I'd agree with that. But that's why they need to stick as a pro-Union (of some nature) party. With the SNP now camped firmly on the left, and the Greens also as a left-wing pro-independence party, there's no space for Labour to fill. There is, however, space for a pro-Union left-of-centre party.

    Scottish Labour's long-term problem (leaving aside their personnel and UK party troubles), is that having dropped to third, they're now stuck between backing the SNP (which makes them largely irrelevant, apart from on the independence question) and backing the Tories (which makes them disliked).
    Scottish Labour dropped to third place on the basis of the List Vote last May , but still held second place on the constituency votes. Labour would probably have performed a bit better had it been a Westminster election - say circa 25% - and the SNP somewhat worse .
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
    If Smith wins it will be narrowly and only because he ran on a Corbynlite platform, having the endorsement of MPs and members Smith would then certainly lead Labour into the next general election regardless of what happens and if Labour lose again that would be the time for Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis etc to put their hats into the ring
    I haven't seen or heard or read anything that has changed my opinion of a Corbyn victory by a margin of 2-1 over Smith, something that I have held since the beginning.

    Smith has done a terrible campaign, really bad debate performances, his own campaign is starting to admit defeat (though they are keeping the line of "it's closer that you think").

    The 34% of Labour voters who don't think Corbyn told the truth about Trains and the 29% who say May is a better PM are probably close to what Smith is going to get.
    The last poll of 2015 Labour voters by BMG a few weeks ago had Corbyn ahead of Smith by just 51% to 49%, if that is reflected in the membership then it is too close to call
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Know we've at least one fan on here

    Apollo Magazine
    Your chance to win Colour: The Art and Science of Illuminated Manuscripts https://t.co/9pBS3dA0j4 https://t.co/rR64pt32sk
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274



    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    I think, been polite, that you are keeping your options open there.....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD said:

    Smith's odds have come in from around 7 to 5.9 just today on Betfair. Maybe TSE isn't the only one to think these thoughts.

    Indeed, Smith's pledge to scrap tuition fees today coupled with his pro EU stance and promise to restore the 50% top tax rate and fight austerity shows he is going all out to appeal to the Labour membership and in my view his Corbynlite policies delivered with more competence than Corbyn gives him a real chance of victory. There may even be a new yougov tonight
    I was polled (as a Labour member) by YouGov on Tuesday. The June YouGov members poll was compiled over a four day fieldwork period so if nothing appears by tonight I think it must have been a privately commissioned poll.
    Yes we need to keep an eye out for a Sunday Times Yougov Labour members poll tonight
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    Sandpit said:


    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    They are just seen as Tory helpers now so finished, majority on left oer wanting independence have gone SNP and teh middle class have goneTory or Greens. Currently they serve no purpose whatsoever or than to help Tories.
    Other than not being the SNP how do they help the Tories? If anything they split the unionist vote with the Tories leaving the field wide open for the SNP to hoover up the military of Indyref supporters to form a government.

    If the SNP and Labour were splitting the Indyref vote and the Tories were hoovering up the unionist vote, then that would help the Tories.
    The Greens split the independence vote somewhat at the last Holyrood election
    The SNP are only interested in a pro-independence majority in Scotland. Them suggesting that Labour should support Indy is so nakedly transparent.
    Well put
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    justin124 said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    It's much too late now but they could have carved out a position as THE Devo Max party with a credible position on maximum powers for Scotland within the Union, reflecting the stated views ofp them).
    I'd agree with that. But that's why they need to stick as a pro-Union (of some nature) party. With the SNP now camped firmly on the left, and the Greens also as a left-wing pro-independence party, there's no space for Labour to fill. There is, however, space for a pro-Union left-of-centre party.

    Scottish Labour's long-term problem (leaving aside their personnel and UK party troubles), is that having dropped to third, they're now stuck between backing the SNP (which makes them largely irrelevant, apart from on the independence question) and backing the Tories (which makes them disliked).
    Scottish Labour dropped to third place on the basis of the List Vote last May , but still held second place on the constituency votes. Labour would probably have performed a bit better had it been a Westminster election - say circa 25% - and the SNP somewhat worse .
    The Scottish Tories won more constituency seats though than Scottish Labour
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    PlatoSaid said:

    Know we've at least one fan on here

    Apollo Magazine
    Your chance to win Colour: The Art and Science of Illuminated Manuscripts https://t.co/9pBS3dA0j4 https://t.co/rR64pt32sk

    I've entered. Thanks Plato.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Betting Post
    F1: backed Red Bull and Ferrari to top score (split one stake between each, 3.75 and 4.5 respectively).
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/belgium-pre-race-2016.html
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    Every single Labour MP or PPC should be in Scotland, campaigning, every week. Shadow ministers should be there passionately persuading the Scots the good reasons to stay, on a daily basis. Labour should be pouring money and energy into defeating the SNP in September, because it is Labour voters that will swing this plebiscite. Yet you don't do this. It is quite bizarre.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    It's much too late now but they could have carved out a position as THE Devo Max party with a credible position on maximum powers for Scotland within the Union, reflecting the stated views ofp them).
    I'd agree with that. But that's why they need to stick as a pro-Union (of some nature) party. With the SNP now camped firmly on the left, and the Greens also as a left-wing pro-independence party, there's no space for Labour to fill. There is, however, space for a pro-Union left-of-centre party.

    Scottish Labour's long-term problem (leaving aside their personnel and UK party troubles), is that having dropped to third, they're now stuck between backing the SNP (which makes them largely irrelevant, apart from on the independence question) and backing the Tories (which makes them disliked).
    Scottish Labour dropped to third place on the basis of the List Vote last May , but still held second place on the constituency votes. Labour would probably have performed a bit better had it been a Westminster election - say circa 25% - and the SNP somewhat worse .
    The Scottish Tories won more constituency seats though than Scottish Labour
    Indeed so - but Labour did manage to win three seats when most commentators had predicted none at all!
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, it's very difficult to read. Is the opposition to Corbyn more widespread than last year or just noisier? The electorate has changed so much and the nature of the campaign is so different that it's very hard to tell.

    We know that the CLP nominations ran heavily for Corbyn but how representative are they, and have some minds changed even in the few weeks since then? We know that many signed up via the Saving Labour route but how meaningful is that - to what extent is it simply reinforcing pre-existing opposition to Corbyn? How active are the unions that endorsed him in pushing his candidacy and how active are those that oppose him?

    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    hard to believe there can be enough silly people that would give 45% of vote to Smith, he is so dire and has nothing to add to debate, he just says "I agree with Jeremty"
    He's a stalking horse. If / when he fails then he can be forced out and someone with a bit of experience can take over, with the far left being kept off the ballot.
    If Smith wins it will be narrowly and only because he ran on a Corbynlite platform, having the endorsement of MPs and members Smith would then certainly lead Labour into the next general election regardless of what happens and if Labour lose again that would be the time for Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis etc to put their hats into the ring
    I haven't seen or heard or read anything that has changed my opinion of a Corbyn victory by a margin of 2-1 over Smith, something that I have held since the beginning.

    Smith has done a terrible campaign, really bad debate performances, his own campaign is starting to admit defeat (though they are keeping the line of "it's closer that you think").

    The 34% of Labour voters who don't think Corbyn told the truth about Trains and the 29% who say May is a better PM are probably close to what Smith is going to get.
    The last poll of 2015 Labour voters by BMG a few weeks ago had Corbyn ahead of Smith by just 51% to 49%, if that is reflected in the membership then it is too close to call
    Unrealistic, current Labour voters in that same poll give it 66-34 for Corbyn and members tend to be more left wing than voters.

    Smith's own campaign posted that in order for them to win even by the slimmest of margins they would need more than 60% of the registered supporters and trade unionists, it's more likely that Corbyn gets that than Smith.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    IanB2 said:



    My guess is that Corbyn will win with about 55% of the vote but I wouldn't rule out him losing and I wouldn't rule out a 60%+ share.

    I think, been polite, that you are keeping your options open there.....
    In a sense yes. But I'm also representing what I feel: that this is a race I have a lot of difficulty calling and don't really have a sense for. Last year, I was pretty confident that Corbyn would win and was expecting that earlier than quite a few on here, including Mike. As it turned out, he won by more than I expected but he still won.

    This time, while I expect him to win, there are so many variables that it's a much harder call.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,744
    justin124 said:



    Indeed so - but Labour did manage to win three seats when most commentators had predicted none at all!

    They had some great expectations management ahead of those elections.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    GeoffM said:

    nunu said:

    Apparently Turkey are blocking Facebook, Youtube, and Twitter again.

    I wish we would block twitter.....
    But what would Scott_P do instead?
    Type Scottish Tory surge KLAXON every now and again.

    Can't believe that prophecy actually came true.......
  • Options
    vikvik Posts: 157
    Clinton's lead falls to only 1 point in the latest Gravis poll. It was 5 points in the poll conducted 2 weeks ago.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    nunu said:

    Type Scottish Tory surge KLAXON every now and again.

    Can't believe that prophecy actually came true.......

    PB Tory

    ALL my predictions come true...
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    justin124 said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Didn't think SeanT could be so wise, this is what he said to nick.
    If you win re-election but Scotland is lost then you'll be an MP for about a year.

    If you win or lose the GE in 2015 you can shrug your shoulders and look forward to a rematch in 2020. If you lose Scotland, you are permanently crippled.

    Presently Labour is doing even worse in Scotland than the UK as a whole, Scotland only has use for Labour now in terms of a deal with the SNP but even that is not greatly beneficial to them considering it scares voters in England
    If they dump Kezia and support Independence they have a great chance of coming back. Whether they have enough brain power to work it out is debatable though.
    Surely their opposition to independence is one of the few things that makes them at all relevant? What's the point of a party that mirrors the policy of another one but has far less support?
    It's much too late now but they could have carved out a position as THE Devo Max party with a credible position on maximum powers for Scotland within the Union, reflecting the stated views of Gordon 'Federalism' Brown. As things stand, in the post referendum more powers dickering SLab were arguing for substantially less powers than the SCons. If SLab did an about turn now they'd just look like convictionless headless chickens (not that that would necessarily stop them).
    I'd agree with that. But that's why they need to stick as a pro-Union (of some nature) party. With the SNP now camped firmly on the left, and the Greens also as a left-wing pro-independence party, there's no space for Labour to fill. There is, however, space for a pro-Union left-of-centre party.

    Scottish Labour's long-term problem (leaving aside their personnel and UK party troubles), is that having dropped to third, they're now stuck between backing the SNP (which makes them largely irrelevant, apart from on the independence question) and backing the Tories (which makes them disliked).
    Scottish Labour dropped to third place on the basis of the List Vote last May , but still held second place on the constituency votes. Labour would probably have performed a bit better had it been a Westminster election - say circa 25% - and the SNP somewhat worse .
    I appreciate that it's an unweighted subsample of 150 but YouGov's poll yesterday had the Scottish share for Westminster as

    SNP 50
    Con 25
    Lab 12
    Grn 5
    LD 4
    UKIP 2
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    Betting Post
    F1: backed Red Bull and Ferrari to top score (split one stake between each, 3.75 and 4.5 respectively).
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/belgium-pre-race-2016.html

    That's a good pair of bets, I'll follow you in, one Ayrton each for Ferrari and RB.
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