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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Will Jeremy Hunt be Health Secretary on the 1st of January

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Will Jeremy Hunt be Health Secretary on the 1st of January 2017?

William Hill have brought back their market on whether or not Jeremy Hunt will be Health Secretary on the 1st of January 2017 in light of the announcement this week of further strike action by junior doctors. Normally I’m loathe to back 1/6 bets, however I’m prepared to make an exception to get a 16% return in a little under 4 months for the following reasons.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    First!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    Second.

    What's up, Doc?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Bronze.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Go forth and multiply!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Fifth, like a Scottish Lib Dem ;)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think that the other side of this bet is attractive. I have put a fiver on.

    Against is that we may not see a reshuffle soon enough.

    For:

    1) Senior doctors are far from unified in opposing this strike. The College of GPs and Psychiatrists have supported the juniors

    2) Changing the Health Sec is one way to resolve the deadlock.

    3) Contract imposition is being bodged by incompetent HR teams, with less than a month to go, fewer than 20% are able to go ahead.

    4) the NHS deficit is spiraling out of control independent of the strike, and urgent targets are being missed. These both will get worse this autumn.

    5) the hospitals closure plan that was leaked will add to the pressure.

    6) Hunt was prominent for Remain and strongly associated with the Cameron regime. His days are numbered. Indeed keeping him at Health may be part of killing off the old guard.
  • A Jeremy Hunt thread? It's like the last year never happened.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited September 2016
    Ninth, like Jeremy Hunt in a five way popularity contest.

    Edit - actually, I really do expect him to resign once the contracts are in place so someone else can soothe things over. So it's a question of when that will happen, which is what I'm not sure of.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited September 2016
    Ninth - after the recount

    Those extra £billions for the NHS cannot come soon enough. Who will be the lucky health secretary in post when the lorries with all the extra cash pull in through the gate?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited September 2016
    The medical profession need to be put back in their boxes. It is full of over paid self important leeches who are proactive Luddites preventing evolution of the NHS from an archaic model designed for a past age evolving into a service suited to the modern world.

    I never understand how consultants employed full time by NHS can spend so much time stuffing ever greater wads of cash into back pockets from the private sector. Or how so many of them have the lack of morality or commitment and care for out society that they channel money through companies to evade contributing to society by reducing taxation.

    The NHS is plagued by so many classes of prima donnas that improvement of the service is almost impossible. Administrators and medical staff alike.

  • Meanwhile across the pond the race is tightening: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-as-the-race-tightens-dont-assume-the-electoral-college-will-save-clinton/

    Nate actually under-estimates the shift to Trump, as is his tendency. Some polls (and not just the LA Times) have the candidates tied.

    I continue to think Trump will win.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    Ninth, like Jeremy Hunt in a five way popularity contest.

    Edit - actually, I really do expect him to resign once the contracts are in place so someone else can soothe things over. So it's a question of when that will happen, which is what I'm not sure of.

    If imposition is as bodged as I expect (and Hospital HR departments are notoriously hopeless), then I expect that we will see further rota gaps appearing. I also expect absenteeism to worsen as a reflection of poor morale.

    Over 20% of Hospital physicians think these rota gaps are a threat to patient safety, and 40% of Consultant jobs could not be fulled in this recent College of Physicians survey:

    https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/one-fifth-consultants-state-rota-gaps-are-causing-significant-problems-patient-safety

    To my mind the biggest problem of the contract is that it does not mention training, in what are essentially apprentice like training posts. There is no plan for how to equip the juniors with the skills to become autonomous practitioners. I would not want a junior to be doing my emergency laparotomy if they had not done many elective operations under close supervision first. That is how it will be though under Hunts plans. Not the way to get good outcomes.

    The death of a relative of mine earlier in the year was in part because of poor continuity of care, due to the hospital concerned being unable to staff the rota, so needing to rely on locums and underexperienced cross cover.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    As of tomorrow Hunt will have been at Health for four years. You have to go back to Norman Fowler for a longer run (at DHSS between 1981 and 1987). I don't know if that means he's more likely to see this out or if his time is running out. I can't see May sacking him so I think those backing him to be gone by the end of the year are counting on him saying "sod it, I've had enough."

    I think he'll survive, but 1/6 bets are not my cup of tea.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
  • IanB2 said:

    Ninth - after the recount

    Those extra £billions for the NHS cannot come soon enough. Who will be the lucky health secretary in post when the lorries with all the extra cash pull in through the gate?

    Boris Johnson?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    IanB2 said:

    Ninth - after the recount

    Those extra £billions for the NHS cannot come soon enough. Who will be the lucky health secretary in post when the lorries with all the extra cash pull in through the gate?

    Boris Johnson?
    I have to say that so far Boris has done OK as FS though. Not perhaps the most brilliant since Canning, but equally not the most disastrous since Halifax.
  • Interesting contrast between what Scots Tories think are the top one or two things the Scottish government should focus on, and what SNP voters think.....

    SNP Voters - diff vs Con voters:

    Which one or two of the following do you think should be the main priorities for the Scottish Government at this time? Please tick up to two.

    Healthcare: -15
    Economic Development: -24
    Relationship with EU: +29
    Education: -20
    Independence: +19

    'Education' ranks fifth among SNP voters, after 'Independence'......

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/eva2tvwhn2/TimesScotland_160831_Results_website.pdf
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
  • ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Ninth - after the recount

    Those extra £billions for the NHS cannot come soon enough. Who will be the lucky health secretary in post when the lorries with all the extra cash pull in through the gate?

    Boris Johnson?
    I have to say that so far Boris has done OK as FS though. Not perhaps the most brilliant since Canning, but equally not the most disastrous since Halifax.
    Far too early to judge either way- it's only been 2 months
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Ninth - after the recount

    Those extra £billions for the NHS cannot come soon enough. Who will be the lucky health secretary in post when the lorries with all the extra cash pull in through the gate?

    Boris Johnson?
    I have to say that so far Boris has done OK as FS though. Not perhaps the most brilliant since Canning, but equally not the most disastrous since Halifax.
    Far too early to judge either way- it's only been 2 months
    Ordinarily I would agree, but I did confidently expect him to make some suicidal diplomatic gaffe or other within five minutes of taking office. 2 months without causing someone somewhere to fire up with injured pride must surely be a record for him.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited September 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Came across this rather good long read in the Atlantic on the dangers of safe spaces, vindictive protection and the rise of mental health issues in youngsters.

    All very pertinent to several discussions we've had on here. Co authored by the excellent Jonathan Haidt.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited September 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    Always good to get a perspective from the inside, and I agree with you that something needs to be sorted out, just don't think that continuing to put patients' live at risk with a strike is the right way of going about it.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    Came across this rather good long read in the Atlantic on the dangers of safe spaces, vindictive protection and the rise of mental health issues in youngsters.

    All very pertinent to several discussions we've had on here. Co authored by the excellent Jonathan Haidt. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

    "...Political scientists call this process “affective partisan polarization,” and it is a very serious problem for any democracy. As each side increasingly demonizes the other, compromise becomes more difficult. A recent study shows that implicit or unconscious biases are now at least as strong across political parties as they are across races.

    So it’s not hard to imagine why students arriving on campus today might be more desirous of protection and more hostile toward ideological opponents than in generations past. This hostility, and the self-righteousness fueled by strong partisan emotions, can be expected to add force to any moral crusade. A principle of moral psychology is that “morality binds and blinds.” Part of what we do when we make moral judgments is express allegiance to a team. But that can interfere with our ability to think critically. Acknowledging that the other side’s viewpoint has any merit is risky—your teammates may see you as a traitor.

    Social media makes it extraordinarily easy to join crusades, express solidarity and outrage, and shun traitors. Facebook was founded in 2004, and since 2006 it has allowed children as young as 13 to join. This means that the first wave of students who spent all their teen years using Facebook reached college in 2011, and graduated from college only this year... "
  • If May wanted to remove Hunt the time to do it was during the original reshuffle when she removed Osborne. Then it would have been just a part of the reshuffle and not due to the strikes.

    If she does remove him now she'll be showing weakness at this early juncture which will encourage everyone else to push her about.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Good work from Brazilian cops

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/olympics-alleged-chemical-terror-plotters-charged-in-brazil/article/2600944?custom_click=rss

    Brazilian officials announced Friday the indictment of 12 men who allegedly planned a biochemical terrorist attack at the Rio de Janeiro Olympics last month, in a NBC report published late Friday.

    Authorities said the dozen Brazilian men were taken in to custody between June and August, some just weeks before the games kicked off. The men have been accused of "realizing preparations for terrorist acts with the purpose of realizing the offense" and other offenses.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    The public are not virgins anymore either, the adoration of doctors by patients is going out the window and fast... and about time too.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    There would be less rota gaps if people weren't agitating or striking and were actually turning up to work. Striking due to rota gaps is like refusing to wear sun screen because of sun burn.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    4) the NHS deficit is spiraling out of control independent of the strike, and urgent targets are being missed. These both will get worse this autumn.

    The NHS has more money than ever before.

    And you *still* have a record deficit?

    Why is that Hunt's fault?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    edited September 2016
    Charles said:



    4) the NHS deficit is spiraling out of control independent of the strike, and urgent targets are being missed. These both will get worse this autumn.

    The NHS has more money than ever before.

    And you *still* have a record deficit?

    Why is that Hunt's fault?
    For not stopping or reversing Lansley's evidently disastrous reforms. Luckily, the £350m a week will help plug the gap.
  • Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The Junior Doctors have lost this. The writing's on the wall. Hunt is not just safe but massively strengthened.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    4) the NHS deficit is spiraling out of control independent of the strike, and urgent targets are being missed. These both will get worse this autumn.

    The NHS has more money than ever before.

    And you *still* have a record deficit?

    Why is that Hunt's fault?
    For not stopping or reversing Lansley's evidently disastrous reforms. Luckily, the £350m a week will help plug the gap.
    Lansley's reforms weren't disastrous. A little pointless, but not that impactful.

    From my side (the commercial end of healthcare) we are seeing a continual and increasingly aggressive squeeze on pricing and availability of innovative medicine (I don't have a problem with the former; on the latter NICE is a great idea if frustrating at times, but I do worry when PCTs decide not to implement NICE recommendations)

    Makes you wonder where all the money is going sometimes
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Frank McDonagh
    3 September 1752. This day never happened because Britain introduced the Gregorian calendar and it became 14 September.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    BTW hope PBers have been backing Kyle Edmund at the US Open ..

    Mrs JackW is fingering my lolly ... :smile:
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Meanwhile across the pond the race is tightening: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-as-the-race-tightens-dont-assume-the-electoral-college-will-save-clinton/

    Nate actually under-estimates the shift to Trump, as is his tendency. Some polls (and not just the LA Times) have the candidates tied.

    I continue to think Trump will win.

    It's because he gives some weight to historical polls - this slows down sudden changes. (The NH poll isn't good for Trump)
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.
    By and large it does and its a disgrace. Go to your local hospital in the daytime mid-week and good luck trying to find a parking space. Go on a Saturday or Sunday and the car parks and the hospital is a complete ghost town.

    There is more to the NHS than just A&E.
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Frank McDonagh
    3 September 1752. This day never happened because Britain introduced the Gregorian calendar and it became 14 September.

    Does Brexit mean we can cast off the shackles of this European invention and revert to the Julian calendar?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    This is brilliant - Green Party conference subtitling typos.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/new-leaders-present-gibberish-party-6fnjlzqln

    "...the subtitler had Ms Lucas saying “no nuclear, no mice”, which created an image of a line of redundant rodents being told they were no longer needed on the wheel. I think she really said “no compromise”.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.
    By and large it does and its a disgrace. Go to your local hospital in the daytime mid-week and good luck trying to find a parking space. Go on a Saturday or Sunday and the car parks and the hospital is a complete ghost town.

    There is more to the NHS than just A&E.
    The problem with A&E is that many GP's practises are shut at the weekend(mine is) you get a message to ring 101) and after 7pm so there is nowhere for anyone to go to bar A and E..

    The GP's practises should be open at weekends, ALL of them with at least one GP on duty
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited September 2016
    Greetings, comrade doctors!

    Only by sitting on the floor outside the hospital can patient care be guaranteed!

    Government plans to have doctors in the wards on weekends can only end in disaster [unless they pay more, which will ensure heavier wallets promote good psychological health]!

    Edited extra bit: on a more serious note, if leftist infiltration of BMA leadership becomes the story, the situation may not necessarily develop to their advantage.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I thi
    There would be less rota gaps if people weren't agitating or striking and were actually turning up to work. Striking due to rota gaps is like refusing to wear sun screen because of sun burn.
    The rota gaps are there every day, not strike related.

    They are there because of the problem of recruitment and retention of staff, something that the new contract will exacerbate.

    I do not particularly blame the Tories (or Hunt) for the NHS staffing crisis, of which the contract is one aspect. The biggest factor is the disastourous changes to postgraduate medical training ten years ago with MMC/MTAS forced through by Patricia Hewitt and an incompetent medical educationalist establishment. This is a large part of why the grassroots are so militant, and the BMA trying to keep up.

    @Charles In terms of the NHS deficit, it is simply a matter of public record that this has got a lot worse while Hunt has been in charge. He has failed to address the underlying problems, while tilting at windmills and concentrating on spin.

    There is good evidence that he has been warned of the lack of preparation for his scheme, but damn the icebergs, full speed ahead!

    http://www.channel4.com/news/leaked-nhs-documents-reveal-serious-7-day-concerns
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2016

    deleted
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.



    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.
    By and large it does and its a disgrace. Go to your local hospital in the daytime mid-week and good luck trying to find a parking space. Go on a Saturday or Sunday and the car parks and the hospital is a complete ghost town.

    There is more to the NHS than just A&E.
    The problem with A&E is that many GP's practises are shut at the weekend(mine is) you get a message to ring 101) and after 7pm so there is nowhere for anyone to go to bar A and E..

    The GP's practises should be open at weekends, ALL of them with at least one GP on duty
    There is always GP presence via GP Out of Hours, they work from hubs and cover large areas. How on earth do you expect every practice, some with only 3-4 partners to cover 24 hour care? This has never been the case. Before Tony Blair made the new contract they worked in federations with practices teaming up to provide cover.
  • Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.

    By and large it does and its a disgrace. Go to your local hospital in the daytime mid-week and good luck trying to find a parking space. Go on a Saturday or Sunday and the car parks and the hospital is a complete ghost town.

    There is more to the NHS than just A&E.
    The problem with A&E is that many GP's practises are shut at the weekend(mine is) you get a message to ring 101) and after 7pm so there is nowhere for anyone to go to bar A and E..

    The GP's practises should be open at weekends, ALL of them with at least one GP on duty
    Absolutely and as should the rest of the hospital. If you want a routine consultation, or routine surgery it should be as easy to get a weekend appointment as a weekday one. Each hospital has hundreds of millions of pounds of buildings and equipment that largely lies idle for most of the week (evenings, night, early morning and all weekend). In contrast, many private factories work 24/7 as its a much more effective use of the machinery not to shut down.

    The car parks are symptomatic of how dreadfully mismanaged a 40 hour NHS is and its about time the government is getting a grip on this mammoth waste of money to let it lie largely idle.
  • ReallyEvilMuffinReallyEvilMuffin Posts: 65
    edited September 2016

    Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.

    By and large it does and its a disgrace. Go to your local hospital in the daytime mid-week and good luck trying to find a parking space. Go on a Saturday or Sunday and the car parks and the hospital is a complete ghost town.

    There is more to the NHS than just A&E.
    The problem with A&E is that many GP's practises are shut at the weekend(mine is) you get a message to ring 101) and after 7pm so there is nowhere for anyone to go to bar A and E..

    The GP's practises should be open at weekends, ALL of them with at least one GP on duty
    Absolutely and as should the rest of the hospital. If you want a routine consultation, or routine surgery it should be as easy to get a weekend appointment as a weekday one. Each hospital has hundreds of millions of pounds of buildings and equipment that largely lies idle for most of the week (evenings, night, early morning and all weekend). In contrast, many private factories work 24/7 as its a much more effective use of the machinery not to shut down.

    The car parks are symptomatic of how dreadfully mismanaged a 40 hour NHS is and its about time the government is getting a grip on this mammoth waste of money to let it lie largely idle.
    I have seen these trialled hundreds of times - Saturday clinics just aren't wanted by those who use the NHS most. A typical Saturday morning GP clinic gets a DNA rate of 2-4 times a weekday one. When you would not be increasing capacity, merely moving it as your stopping block is GPs to perform the consultations, this is building in huge inefficiency.

    (when say hundreds it is collegues posting feedback to our groups about lack of attendance to the saturday clinics)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    4) the NHS deficit is spiraling out of control independent of the strike, and urgent targets are being missed. These both will get worse this autumn.

    The NHS has more money than ever before.

    And you *still* have a record deficit?

    Why is that Hunt's fault?
    For not stopping or reversing Lansley's evidently disastrous reforms. Luckily, the £350m a week will help plug the gap.
    Lansley's reforms weren't disastrous. A little pointless, but not that impactful.

    From my side (the commercial end of healthcare) we are seeing a continual and increasingly aggressive squeeze on pricing and availability of innovative medicine (I don't have a problem with the former; on the latter NICE is a great idea if frustrating at times, but I do worry when PCTs decide not to implement NICE recommendations)

    Makes you wonder where all the money is going sometimes
    Acute trusts went from continual surplus into continual deficit timed exactly with the introduction of Lansley 's changes.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.


    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.
    By and large it does and its a disgrace. Go to your local hospital in the daytime mid-week and good luck trying to find a parking space. Go on a Saturday or Sunday and the car parks and the hospital is a complete ghost town.

    There is more to the NHS than just A&E.
    The problem with A&E is that many GP's practises are shut at the weekend(mine is) you get a message to ring 101) and after 7pm so there is nowhere for anyone to go to bar A and E..

    The GP's practises should be open at weekends, ALL of them with at least one GP on duty
    Exactly, any normal business would be run as a 24x7 with local siurgeries open as you say, instead its run to suit the schedules Consultants and GP's have the lifestyle they want. When I was a boy your GP came out for emergencies at any time, now you cannot even get an appointment during the day , it is always phone at 8:30 and try to get one of the slots. It should not be run as a club for Doctor's.
  • Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The interesting part is this: 'Most junior doctors are what I'd call small 'c' conservatives, with fairly centrist views. But the organisation has been taken over by Left-wing radicals.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    That is the risk, not for the government but for the Conservative Party: Jeremy Hunt is alienating thousands of natural Tories. For this generation of doctors, the Conservatives will be once more, "the nasty party". Before betting on Hunt, perhaps we should bear in mind who coined that phrase.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    Interesting background, but I think the support of the wider public for the strikes will start to evaporate as they get longer and have more of an effect.

    The talk of the JDC leaders of trying to topple the government, will only make that government more determined to see them off. As one commentator said on the first day of the strikes, they might have more public support if they didn't sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.
    I am off to work shortly, but I thi
    There would be less rota gaps if people weren't agitating or striking and were actually turning up to work. Striking due to rota gaps is like refusing to wear sun screen because of sun burn.


    http://www.channel4.com/news/leaked-nhs-documents-reveal-serious-7-day-concerns
    Yet in France and Germany you can see a Doctor on the day and be referred the same day to Consultant's , for x-rays etc. The NHS is a shambles , badly run to suit staff and not the patients. Normal businesses would fail if they treated their customers the way the NHS operates.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited September 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    This is brilliant - Green Party conference subtitling typos.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/new-leaders-present-gibberish-party-6fnjlzqln

    "...the subtitler had Ms Lucas saying “no nuclear, no mice”, which created an image of a line of redundant rodents being told they were no longer needed on the wheel. I think she really said “no compromise”.

    Not voting Green then. I mean at least you get a free owl with Labour..... :frowning:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited September 2016

    If May wanted to remove Hunt the time to do it was during the original reshuffle when she removed Osborne. Then it would have been just a part of the reshuffle and not due to the strikes.

    If she does remove him now she'll be showing weakness at this early juncture which will encourage everyone else to push her about.

    Agree completely. Mrs May isn't going to back down against a Militant Union in her first six months in charge, it will only give ammunition to every other militant Union. Hunt is safe, at least until this dispute is over. I think Mrs May will be more of a Cameron than a Blair when it comes to reshuffles, with maybe one in 2019 before a 2020 election
  • Tennis: Edmund has beaten Isner to reach the fourth round of the US Open.

    Good stuff from the Briton. Although his next match is against Djokovic.
  • JennyFreemanJennyFreeman Posts: 488
    edited September 2016
    The tide has turned and junior doctors will soon find themselves out of public favour. It's time to put a sock in it and get on with their job.

    Now for the NHS:

    1. Immediately end nursing degrees. The demise of the NHS owes in part to this stupid Blairite decision, fuelled by the RCN, to require all nurses have degrees. The net result of this idiocy was first to block a vast swathe of otherwise ideal nursing candidates from entering their care profession. And second, and even more serious, it induced a holier-than-thou attitude amongst some nursing staff that even the most basic functions were beneath them. Chief amongst this was keeping the bloody ward clean.

    2. Sack every single NHS manager. Okay, slight exaggeration but it's ridiculous Blairite nonsense to have such top-heavy over-paid managers who don't know anything about the profession. There are eye-watering pay-offs that have been lavished on managers. That's our money.

    3. Computerise patient care centrally. It's ludicrous that if a patient is transferred from one hospital to another they are sent with a wodge of notes which these terribly overworked junior doctors cannot read. One hospital will not trust another so they will then run all the same tests all over again: wasting thousands of pounds and care quality.

    4. Yes GP surgery hours should be extended. The point about no-shows at weekends isn't entirely relevant because it takes time for people to get used to new systems and besides ...

    5. Charge patients for no-shows. £20 a no-show. Three strikes and you're out.

    6. Stop sending out bloody silly reminder letters and phone calls. Total waste of money. Automated free text reminders please.

    7. Obesity tax. It's very simple. The more obese you are the more you will cost the NHS so you should pay for it.

    8. Smoking tax. It's very simple. The more you smoke the more you will cost the NHS so should pay for it.

    and finally

    9. Tourists and non-residents should have to pay for their care.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    There would be less rota gaps if people weren't agitating or striking and were actually turning up to work. Striking due to rota gaps is like refusing to wear sun screen because of sun burn.

    The rota gaps are there every day, not strike related.

    They are there because of the problem of recruitment and retention of staff, something that the new contract will exacerbate.

    I do not particularly blame the Tories (or Hunt) for the NHS staffing crisis, of which the contract is one aspect. The biggest factor is the disastourous changes to postgraduate medical training ten years ago with MMC/MTAS forced through by Patricia Hewitt and an incompetent medical educationalist establishment. This is a large part of why the grassroots are so militant, and the BMA trying to keep up.

    @Charles In terms of the NHS deficit, it is simply a matter of public record that this has got a lot worse while Hunt has been in charge. He has failed to address the underlying problems, while tilting at windmills and concentrating on spin.

    There is good evidence that he has been warned of the lack of preparation for his scheme, but damn the icebergs, full speed ahead!

    http://www.channel4.com/news/leaked-nhs-documents-reveal-serious-7-day-concerns

    My point is that spending is at a high and patient throughput has not increased markedly. Yes treatment costs have risen in some cases and yes legacy PFI is a burden. But these are not unexpected issues. The deficit is caused by a failure to plan correctly and to control local spending in a disciplined manner
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016

    Tim_B said:

    The EU just gets more and more ridiculous: they order Apple to pay $14.5 billion in back taxes to Ireland. Apple appeals, and Ireland joins the appeal against the EU ruling.

    What do you think should be happening in this situation? I mean, normally if a country breaks the rules they get fined, but the outcome of that is that the politically favoured company gets their state aid at the cost of the taxpayers of that country, which is what these rules are supposed to be preventing in the first place.
    Because EU rules like this only apply to the "little people" ie not France especially (who do what they like with impunity and always get away with it and Germany (who can get away with behaving like France but culturally prefer to obey the rules normally)

    First the EU bankrupted Ireland, sending in Gaulitiers to run their economy and loading billions of bank debt on it to save Germanys banks. Now they impose a retrospecitve fine on their public finances of about 10% of their GDP.

    Well, no longer do we in the UK have to go cap in hand appealing to the ECJ over anything. We make our own rules and if they don't like it then we can send the Navy round to discuss it with them. If Ireland had any sense they would rejoin the UK with the same rights and privileges as the Isle of Man has and be done with the EU.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    4) the NHS deficit is spiraling out of control independent of the strike, and urgent targets are being missed. These both will get worse this autumn.

    The NHS has more money than ever before.

    And you *still* have a record deficit?

    Why is that Hunt's fault?
    For not stopping or reversing Lansley's evidently disastrous reforms. Luckily, the £350m a week will help plug the gap.
    Lansley's reforms weren't disastrous. A little pointless, but not that impactful.

    From my side (the commercial end of healthcare) we are seeing a continual and increasingly aggressive squeeze on pricing and availability of innovative medicine (I don't have a problem with the former; on the latter NICE is a great idea if frustrating at times, but I do worry when PCTs decide not to implement NICE recommendations)

    Makes you wonder where all the money is going sometimes
    Acute trusts went from continual surplus into continual deficit timed exactly with the introduction of Lansley 's changes.
    Part of the system. Resources moved to primary care deliberately because that's a better system. Acute trusts failed to adapt.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank McDonagh
    3 September 1752. This day never happened because Britain introduced the Gregorian calendar and it became 14 September.

    Does Brexit mean we can cast off the shackles of this European invention and revert to the Julian calendar?
    The Julian Calendar was introduced by another European who wanted domination from a central location - in this case Rome. Plus ca change.....

    You cannae change the laws of physics.
  • philiph said:

    The medical profession need to be put back in their boxes. It is full of over paid self important leeches who are proactive Luddites preventing evolution of the NHS from an archaic model designed for a past age evolving into a service suited to the modern world.

    I never understand how consultants employed full time by NHS can spend so much time stuffing ever greater wads of cash into back pockets from the private sector. Or how so many of them have the lack of morality or commitment and care for out society that they channel money through companies to evade contributing to society by reducing taxation.

    The NHS is plagued by so many classes of prima donnas that improvement of the service is almost impossible. Administrators and medical staff alike.

    It needs to be broken up into county sized units under the supervision of the county authorities (GLA in London).

    You would rapidly see differences between Tory county run health services and Labour run ones
  • Miss Freeman, perhaps.

    An awful lot of people will side with the NHS/junior doctors whatever the merits of the case for or against.

    Mr. Bedfordshire, we haven't left yet. There are plenty of prominent ex-Remain types who now want a departure in name only, under the cloak of convenience.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Moses_ said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is brilliant - Green Party conference subtitling typos.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/new-leaders-present-gibberish-party-6fnjlzqln

    "...the subtitler had Ms Lucas saying “no nuclear, no mice”, which created an image of a line of redundant rodents being told they were no longer needed on the wheel. I think she really said “no compromise”.

    Not voting Green then. I mean at least you get a free owl with Labour..... :frowning:
    Although without move the owls wont survive

    Cunning plan to undermine Labour's USP
  • Brexit Bashing Peer Booed on Cunard Liner

    Glorious:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771784/SEBASTIAN-SHAKESPEARE-Brexit-bashing-Baroness-Wheatcroft-sparks-cruise-ship-mutiny.html

    There was mutiny aboard the Queen Victoria cruise ship after pro-EU peer Patience Wheatcroft lectured her fellow passengers about the perils of Brexit.

    Baroness Wheatcroft must have expected it to be plain sailing after being invited by Cunard to be a guest speaker on the ship’s swanky 14-day cruise

    However, she hadn’t counted on the swell of public opinion and the waters turned distinctly choppy after Wheatcroft, below, regally set out her campaign for a second referendum to overturn the June vote, saying she would do everything in her power to stop Britain leaving Europe.

    Cue maritime mayhem. According to one Brexiteer on board, the Tory peer was ‘nearly lynched’ after several audience members walked out in protest.

  • Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Every junior doctor who stays the course and makes consultant retires with a pension worth in excess of £2m, some who earn additional payments considerably more. These are very well paid public servants so what exactly is the problem?

    Medicine continues to attract many of the brightest of our students. My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers. That was the end of his plan to follow his father into medicine. From friends of my daughter and my own experience many years ago medical students work much harder than any other category of student (dentists were similar) and unlike most parts of Universities these days those that underperform are chucked out.

    Junior doctors also continue to work absurdly long hours, hours that impact on your social life and ultimately affect your psychological balance. I think the perception is that this contract will make that even worse by upping the anti social aspects of their work life balance. When you feel yourself already stretched thin or to the limit I can understand why that makes you angry or depressed.

    What we really need are a lot more doctors who live more normal lives for rather more normal salaries. But they are so expensive to train that there is an obvious attraction to working those assets very hard and the NHS has operated on this basis for a long time. In the longer term this leads to poor retention in the profession and, I fear, quite poor medicine too.

    I suspect that foxinsox has it right when he identifies failures in the training regime as being at the heart of this. Does anyone in the 21st century really believe that only those working 70 hours a week can gain enough experience? The solution, however, is not straightforward, especially for a service that has had several years now of much slower growth in its budgets than it was used to whilst demand continues to soar.

  • Mr. Herdson, congratulations :)

    Two heroic British names in one. And another Caesarean on the site :p
  • If Ireland had any sense they would rejoin the UK with the same rights and privileges as the Isle of Man has and be done with the EU.

    And if you had any sense you would keep your irredentist fantasies to yourself.
  • Congratulations to the Herdson family on the arrival of the new Herdsonson.
  • Moses_ said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is brilliant - Green Party conference subtitling typos.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/new-leaders-present-gibberish-party-6fnjlzqln

    "...the subtitler had Ms Lucas saying “no nuclear, no mice”, which created an image of a line of redundant rodents being told they were no longer needed on the wheel. I think she really said “no compromise”.

    Not voting Green then. I mean at least you get a free owl with Labour..... :frowning:
    I can't read the whole article as a paywall, but judging by first two or three paragraphs, it is the standard article written about Green conference. I'm not even sure these journos actually bother to go anymore as they can just reuse the template from the office e.g. vegan food stands, woman baby feeding, beards, sandals, people who don't like cars etc etc.

    The original template was created by a young Andrew Rawnsley back in the 1990s when he coined, iirc, the infamous 'yoghurt woven yurts' phrase.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.

    Congratulations, David!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.

    Don't worry about what might have been.

    Enjoy the here and now!

    Congratulations!
  • Do you support or oppose the junior doctor strikes?
    Support 57% (-17) Oppose 43% (+17)

    Some mistake surely? I was assured by PB Tories only days ago that the junior doctors have lost 'all' public support with their latest strike proposals.
  • Congratulation Mr Herdson, - under such circumstances, we shall excuse your tardiness. :lol:
  • Congratulations to the Herdson family on the arrival of the new Herdsonson.

    :+1::+1:

    A new PB generation!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited September 2016

    Do you support or oppose the junior doctor strikes?
    Support 57% (-17) Oppose 43% (+17)

    Some mistake surely? I was assured by PB Tories only days ago that the junior doctors have lost 'all' public support with their latest strike proposals.

    That's a huge swing against them and the strike hasn't happened yet.
  • DavidL said:

    Every junior doctor who stays the course and makes consultant retires with a pension worth in excess of £2m, some who earn additional payments considerably more. These are very well paid public servants so what exactly is the problem?

    Medicine continues to attract many of the brightest of our students. My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers. That was the end of his plan to follow his father into medicine. From friends of my daughter and my own experience many years ago medical students work much harder than any other category of student (dentists were similar) and unlike most parts of Universities these days those that underperform are chucked out.

    Junior doctors also continue to work absurdly long hours, hours that impact on your social life and ultimately affect your psychological balance. I think the perception is that this contract will make that even worse by upping the anti social aspects of their work life balance. When you feel yourself already stretched thin or to the limit I can understand why that makes you angry or depressed.

    What we really need are a lot more doctors who live more normal lives for rather more normal salaries. But they are so expensive to train that there is an obvious attraction to working those assets very hard and the NHS has operated on this basis for a long time. In the longer term this leads to poor retention in the profession and, I fear, quite poor medicine too.

    I suspect that foxinsox has it right when he identifies failures in the training regime as being at the heart of this. Does anyone in the 21st century really believe that only those working 70 hours a week can gain enough experience? The solution, however, is not straightforward, especially for a service that has had several years now of much slower growth in its budgets than it was used to whilst demand continues to soar.

    "My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers."

    I had heard that medic degrees were going into clearing this year.
  • Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.

    Congratulations David and to your family.
  • JennyFreemanJennyFreeman Posts: 488
    edited September 2016
    MaxPB said:

    .

    That's a huge swing against them and the strike hasn't happened yet.
    Correct. They are losing it.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    I commented first on the strikes after the first day. Support has either stagnated or weakened ever since, whilst opposition grows.

    Docs have, as middle class strikers always do, overplayed their hand. Middle classes whinging about pay rarely goes down well.
  • Charles said:

    Moses_ said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is brilliant - Green Party conference subtitling typos.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/new-leaders-present-gibberish-party-6fnjlzqln

    "...the subtitler had Ms Lucas saying “no nuclear, no mice”, which created an image of a line of redundant rodents being told they were no longer needed on the wheel. I think she really said “no compromise”.

    Not voting Green then. I mean at least you get a free owl with Labour..... :frowning:
    Although without move the owls wont survive

    Cunning plan to undermine Labour's USP
    Apart from 'Vote Labour, get a microwave', the free owls policy is the only one I can recall from their disastrous GE 2015 campaign. I see Ed Balls has made sure that he's not seen to be blamed, which may well be true if they really didn't invite him to any meetings.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.

    Huge congratulations David!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    DavidL said:

    Every junior doctor who stays the course and makes consultant retires with a pension worth in excess of £2m, some who earn additional payments considerably more. These are very well paid public servants so what exactly is the problem?

    Medicine continues to attract many of the brightest of our students. My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers. That was the end of his plan to follow his father into medicine. From friends of my daughter and my own experience many years ago medical students work much harder than any other category of student (dentists were similar) and unlike most parts of Universities these days those that underperform are chucked out.

    Junior doctors also continue to work absurdly long hours, hours that impact on your social life and ultimately affect your psychological balance. I think the perception is that this contract will make that even worse by upping the anti social aspects of their work life balance. When you feel yourself already stretched thin or to the limit I can understand why that makes you angry or depressed.

    What we really need are a lot more doctors who live more normal lives for rather more normal salaries. But they are so expensive to train that there is an obvious attraction to working those assets very hard and the NHS has operated on this basis for a long time. In the longer term this leads to poor retention in the profession and, I fear, quite poor medicine too.

    I suspect that foxinsox has it right when he identifies failures in the training regime as being at the heart of this. Does anyone in the 21st century really believe that only those working 70 hours a week can gain enough experience? The solution, however, is not straightforward, especially for a service that has had several years now of much slower growth in its budgets than it was used to whilst demand continues to soar.

    "My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers."

    I had heard that medic degrees were going into clearing this year.
    I had the same experience 12 years ago, I got a B in biology so I had to go and do my second choice degree. If clearing for medicine had existed then I would have gone to whichever university offered it, glad it didn't now. I see my best friend from college so rarely, he's either on call or studying for some exam or other. I work shitty hours already, but it's nothing compared to what they do.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Every junior doctor who stays the course and makes consultant retires with a pension worth in excess of £2m, some who earn additional payments considerably more. These are very well paid public servants so what exactly is the problem?

    Medicine continues to attract many of the brightest of our students. My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers. That was the end of his plan to follow his father into medicine. From friends of my daughter and my own experience many years ago medical students work much harder than any other category of student (dentists were similar) and unlike most parts of Universities these days those that underperform are chucked out.

    Junior doctors also continue to work absurdly long hours, hours that impact on your social life and ultimately affect your psychological balance. I think the perception is that this contract will make that even worse by upping the anti social aspects of their work life balance. When you feel yourself already stretched thin or to the limit I can understand why that makes you angry or depressed.

    What we really need are a lot more doctors who live more normal lives for rather more normal salaries. But they are so expensive to train that there is an obvious attraction to working those assets very hard and the NHS has operated on this basis for a long time. In the longer term this leads to poor retention in the profession and, I fear, quite poor medicine too.

    I suspect that foxinsox has it right when he identifies failures in the training regime as being at the heart of this. Does anyone in the 21st century really believe that only those working 70 hours a week can gain enough experience? The solution, however, is not straightforward, especially for a service that has had several years now of much slower growth in its budgets than it was used to whilst demand continues to soar.

    For medicine in many cases experience is the only way.

    A client of mine, for instance, has developed a technology for measuring blood flow through arteries during a corony arterial bypass graft. combined with imaging to allow for correct placement of the gratt.

    Rapid adoption in Scandiland and the US. NHS not using - despite NICE recommendation - because doctors prefer old approach of putting their finger on the artery to judge blood flow. (Of course the data shows much greater readmission rates with the manual technique, but what does data prove, eh?)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The BMA JDC leaders had to resign because their members rejected the new contract in a ballot (note that contrary to how it was reported the JDC did not make a recommendation, though some of the leadership did individually). This is not a strike where militant leaders bamboozle the workers, it is very much the opposite with the grassroots fed up with the BMA leadership for being insufficiently militant. Having had the first strike for 40 years they are no longer virgins and will strike much more easily in the future.
    .
    I am off to work shortly, but I think that governments should learn to be more careful of people who feel that they have nothing to lose. That is how Leave won. Many will feel forced to end their UK medical careers if the contract is imposed.

    Many juniors see the shift patterns of the new contract impossible to sustain, and covering rota gaps too. It is very difficult to come to the end of a working day (or night) and for no-one to appear for handover. In practice these staff are usually forced to carry on, which is not sustainable forever.

    If I were 25 years younger as a Doctor, I would emigrate. There is no future for British medicine.
    Off to work? Are you sure you're a doctor? It's Saturday, and the NHS shuts down over the weekend.
    By and large it does and its a disgrace. Go to your local hospital in the daytime mid-week and good luck trying to find a parking space. Go on a Saturday or Sunday and the car parks and the hospital is a complete ghost town.

    There is more to the NHS than just A&E.
    The problem with A&E is that many GP's practises are shut at the weekend(mine is) you get a message to ring 101) and after 7pm so there is nowhere for anyone to go to bar A and E..

    The GP's practises should be open at weekends, ALL of them with at least one GP on duty
    That is not necessarily true. I have just dropped off one of mine with a nasty ear infection at a walk in centre used by my GP when the practice is closed and it is open 7 days a week. Saves a trip to A&E or suffering until Monday.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Every junior doctor who stays the course and makes consultant retires with a pension worth in excess of £2m, some who earn additional payments considerably more. These are very well paid public servants so what exactly is the problem?

    Medicine continues to attract many of the brightest of our students. My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers. That was the end of his plan to follow his father into medicine. From friends of my daughter and my own experience many years ago medical students work much harder than any other category of student (dentists were similar) and unlike most parts of Universities these days those that underperform are chucked out.

    Junior doctors also continue to work absurdly long hours, hours that impact on your social life and ultimately affect your psychological balance. I think the perception is that this contract will make that even worse by upping the anti social aspects of their work life balance. When you feel yourself already stretched thin or to the limit I can understand why that makes you angry or depressed.

    What we really need are a lot more doctors who live more normal lives for rather more normal salaries. But they are so expensive to train that there is an obvious attraction to working those assets very hard and the NHS has operated on this basis for a long time. In the longer term this leads to poor retention in the profession and, I fear, quite poor medicine too.

    I suspect that foxinsox has it right when he identifies failures in the training regime as being at the heart of this. Does anyone in the 21st century really believe that only those working 70 hours a week can gain enough experience? The solution, however, is not straightforward, especially for a service that has had several years now of much slower growth in its budgets than it was used to whilst demand continues to soar.

    "My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers."

    I had heard that medic degrees were going into clearing this year.
    Well not in Scotland. Indeed a good friend of my daughter had an interesting twist. She complained that the Universities were taking a 50:50 ratio and that this made it much harder for girls to get in than boys. She said that there were something like 9K girls applying (all with 5 As) and only about 3.5K boys. I think there were something like 3K places (can't swear to these numbers).
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited September 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Oh dear, Mail investigation into takeover of the Junior Doctors' Committee of the BMA by the hard left.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    If there's any truth to this, it will make May and Hunt more determined not to back down, strengthening @TSE's bet.

    The interesting part is this: 'Most junior doctors are what I'd call small 'c' conservatives, with fairly centrist views. But the organisation has been taken over by Left-wing radicals.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3771685/EXPOSED-hard-Left-doctors-care-bashing-Tories-health.html

    That is the risk, not for the government but for the Conservative Party: Jeremy Hunt is alienating thousands of natural Tories. For this generation of doctors, the Conservatives will be once more, "the nasty party". Before betting on Hunt, perhaps we should bear in mind who coined that phrase.
    You do realise that doing the right thing generally attracts more votes than doing what is in the interest of a small number of highly paid public sector professionals, don't you?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.

    Very many congratulations to you all!
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited September 2016
    My thoughts.....

    There are a few things we could all do together to alleviate the immediate pressure.

    1) Reduce attendance at A&E . It accident and emergency not anything else. By doing so the demand for ambulance service is reduced as is A&E waiting rooms and urgent cases are dealt with quickly. This may have to be a change in the publics perception and attitude. Don't turn up for an appointment you get fined but being dealt with as a drunk on Friday night you get charged. ( if that's possible?) I suppose that approach or even charging a fiver for each GP appointment (as suggested yesterday) would also work but would be considered not free at point of use . Well I pay for medicines so it's not free so no difference really.

    2) we need better facilities for care of the aged in the community. This avoids the bed blocking and opens up more facilities for those who need medical care rather than supervision including after care from A&E. Of course that would involve a review of resource allocation but savings in one areas could then be better applied elsewhere and allow critical functions of the hospital to be reallocated to the sick rather than infirm.

    3) we need all facilities to run 7 days a week with rota systems to deal with that but also ensure staff are not doing excessive hours. Staff are not only doctors but those that are cleaners, caterers and other back room unseen staff. Many industries work 7 days a week a number 24 hours a day and manage. Such an approach would spread the numbers across 7 days not confine it to 5 days. Major hospitals are ghost towns on Sunday's.

    4) we must use very expensive equipment all the time and not let it sit idle. To a point this has been addressed over the last few years but his is not enough as the CAPEX its a huge resource drain so it has to be used to recover the expenditure. Imagine parking an aeroplane at Heathrow at 5.30pm on a Friday night and then coming back at 9am Monday morning. Just wouldn't happen as planes are viable with passengers and in the air.

    5) Bring back Matron. There was something about the discipline and organisation that does not seem to exist as once was.

    Easier said than done though and it requires a massive step change, a realisation that to deal with the modern demands of the NHS we need a grown up conversation and yes as we do now, use private where needed?

    It won't happen of course because the unions will just shriek from the rooftops and demand more resources over and over. For the record I am a great supporter of the NHS but even I am now getting sick and tired of the antics of the staff and unions. Change or die I say..... there is no halfway house of for the service only a short sharp shock will allow it to survive....intensive care has failed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.

    A magical day for you. Congratulations.
  • JennyFreemanJennyFreeman Posts: 488
    edited September 2016
    Agreed Cyclefree. It takes time for people to get used to and, anyway, as I mentioned below once we start charging for no-shows it will soon sort out the problem. £20 for a no-show, three strikes and you're booted out of the practice.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Moses_ said:

    My thoughts.....

    There are a few things we could all do together to alleviate the immediate pressure.

    1) Reduce attendance at A&E . It accident and emergency not anything else. By doing so the demand for ambulance service is reduced as is A&E waiting rooms and urgent cases are dealt with quickly. This may have to be a change in the publics perception and attitude. Don't turn up for an appointment you get fined but being dealt with as a drunk on Friday night you get charged. ( if that's possible?) I suppose that approach or even charging a fiver for each GP appointment (as suggested yesterday) would also work but would be considered not free at point of use . Well I pay for medicines so it's not free so no difference really.

    2) we need better facilities for care of the aged in the community. This avoids the bed blocking and opens up more facilities for those who need medical care rather than supervision including after care from A&E. Of course that would involve a review of resource allocation but savings in one areas could then be better applied elsewhere and allow critical functions of the hospital to be reallocated to the sick rather than infirm.

    3) we need all facilities to run 7 days a week with rota systems to deal with that but also ensure staff are not doing excessive hours. Staff are not only doctors but those that are cleaners, caterers and other back room unseen staff. Many industries work 7 days a week a number 24 hours a day and manage. Such an approach would spread the numbers across 7 days not confine it to 5 days. Major hospitals are ghost towns on Sunday's.

    4) we must use very expensive equipment all the time and not let it sit idle. To a point this has been addressed over the last few years but his is not enough as the CAPEX its a huge resource drain so it has to be used to recover the expenditure. Imagine parking an aeroplane at Heathrow at 5.30pm on a Friday night and then coming back at 9am Monday morning. Just wouldn't happen as planes are viable with passengers and in the air.

    5) Bring back Matron. There was something about the discipline and organisation that does not seem to exist as once was.

    Easier said than done though and it requires a massive step change, a realisation that to deal with the modern demands of the NHS we need a grown up conversation and yes as we do now, use private where needed?

    It won't happen of course because the unions will just shriek from the rooftops and demand more resources over and over. For the record I am a great supporter of the NHS but even I am now getting sick and tired of the antics of the staff and unions. Change or die I say..... there is no halfway house of for the service only a short sharp shock will allow it to survive....intensive care has failed.

    Very good suggestions, as ever!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    The relationships between the patient, GPs A&E and Hospitals are dysfunctional.

    Why in a small market town, are there 6 GP practices? That is 6 lots of overheads, duplication, profit for private business and a ton of waste. Still access is limited and the appointment system is diabolical and hours are not patient friendly.

    Why is the A&E in the larger adjacent town overrun, broke and struggles with waiting times?

    Because nothing has moved on to keep in step with modern life, transport and lifestyles. Just the skilled and determined actions of the medical profession to keep existing boundaries, demarcation lines and hierarchy within the the medical profession. They have no vision or realisation of how bad things are to the service users.

    The six GP surgeries in a small town should be combined in surgery in the town. They should be open 24 / 7. They should employ Nurses, Drs and provide basic services that fills about 65% of A&E. I would no longer have a specific GP, it would largely be a drop in, not appointment, so I see who is on duty. Appointments would be for people with recurring conditions that need to be monitored, and with a work rota that is manageable.

    To make improvements we need to start by sorting out the initial point of contact with the NHS. Right now it is unworkable. The above changes the relationship between patient, GP and A&E, and therefore access to the hospital.

    Then we get onto the 'Super' Hospitals such as Adenbrookes. The race to the top to be the biggest has blinded the Administrators and Medics that the race should be to be the best. Big Hospitals don't work. By and large the rule is that the larger the organisation the poorer the care a patient receives.

    Why are anesthetists, Consultants etc supplementing income from the reviled immoral private sector? Seems hypocritical to me. If they have the time then the NHS, who employ them, need that time for 7 day working. Make a choice, it is private or NHS for you salary. As is said down thread, the investment, equipment and infrastructure is there, use it!

    I could do another 20 or 30 pages of rant at the dire service NHS provides, but I'll stop now.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    @david_herdson Congrats!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    DavidL said:

    Well not in Scotland. Indeed a good friend of my daughter had an interesting twist. She complained that the Universities were taking a 50:50 ratio and that this made it much harder for girls to get in than boys. She said that there were something like 9K girls applying (all with 5 As) and only about 3.5K boys. I think there were something like 3K places (can't swear to these numbers).

    My friend has a theory on this, he thinks that the government are becoming increasingly irritated by women who study medicine for 6/7 years then do all the post-degree training and bugger off to get married and have kids to shift to becoming a part time locum. He says that from his course which was about 50/50 loads of his female friends have already done this. From my own family I know one doctor and one dentist who have both done this and moved to part time locum work in their early thirties.
  • If Ireland had any sense they would rejoin the UK with the same rights and privileges as the Isle of Man has and be done with the EU.

    And if you had any sense you would keep your irredentist fantasies to yourself.
    Thought that might wake you up :)

    Presumably advocating the EUs irredentist fantasy of restoring the territory gained in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk before being lost at Versailles (Ukraine etc.) is quite in order though?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Every junior doctor who stays the course and makes consultant retires with a pension worth in excess of £2m, some who earn additional payments considerably more. These are very well paid public servants so what exactly is the problem?

    Medicine continues to attract many of the brightest of our students. My next door neighbour's son had a disaster where he only got a B in one of his 5 highers. That was the end of his plan to follow his father into medicine. From friends of my daughter and my own experience many years ago medical students work much harder than any other category of student (dentists were similar) and unlike most parts of Universities these days those that underperform are chucked out.

    Junior doctors also continue to work absurdly long hours, hours that impact on your social life and ultimately affect your psychological balance. I think the perception is that this contract will make that even worse by upping the anti social aspects of their work life balance. When you feel yourself already stretched thin or to the limit I can understand why that makes you angry or depressed.

    What we really need are a lot more doctors who live more normal lives for rather more normal salaries. But they are so expensive to train that there is an obvious attraction to working those assets very hard and the NHS has operated on this basis for a long time. In the longer term this leads to poor retention in the profession and, I fear, quite poor medicine too.

    I suspect that foxinsox has it right when he identifies failures in the training regime as being at the heart of this. Does anyone in the 21st century really believe that only those working 70 hours a week can gain enough experience? The solution, however, is not straightforward, especially for a service that has had several years now of much slower growth in its budgets than it was used to whilst demand continues to soar.

    For medicine in many cases experience is the only way.

    A client of mine, for instance, has developed a technology for measuring blood flow through arteries during a corony arterial bypass graft. combined with imaging to allow for correct placement of the gratt.

    Rapid adoption in Scandiland and the US. NHS not using - despite NICE recommendation - because doctors prefer old approach of putting their finger on the artery to judge blood flow. (Of course the data shows much greater readmission rates with the manual technique, but what does data prove, eh?)
    That would seem to be a vivid demonstration that too much "experience" is positively harmful!
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Apologies for the lack of a piece this morning. Arthur Robin Herdson was born at 2.30am and so gave his dad an even higher priority than PB. He and his mum are doing fine. Have to give a lot of credit to the NHS staff who have given a lot of support throughout. That said, he was born by a last-minute-decision c-section and was originally due on Sept 20. I worry what might have been had he gone to term.

    Congratulations Sir !!! Great news for you all and welcome to PB's most youngest member although a while before he is doodling on the site :lol:
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016

    Miss Freeman, perhaps.

    An awful lot of people will side with the NHS/junior doctors whatever the merits of the case for or against.

    Mr. Bedfordshire, we haven't left yet. There are plenty of prominent ex-Remain types who now want a departure in name only, under the cloak of convenience.

    There are indeed, and one or two of of the lesser ones are here it seems judging by certain postings lol

    I remember donkeys years ago after putting the boot into the EU on usenet in a rather incendiary and entertaining way (where you posted under your real email address - until you learned to use a fake one at any rate), I got an abusive email directly to me in response saying basically you don't know what you are talking about.

    When I looked at the header, the poster was clearly British (from name and language used), but has posted from an ISP in Brussels, Belgium, so I suspect was an annoyed Eurocrat

    They don't like it up 'em....
This discussion has been closed.