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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In the other election in Copeland on GE2015 day voters rejecte

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In the other election in Copeland on GE2015 day voters rejected both LAB and CON. A by-election pointer?

With the big Westminster by-election in 2017 set to be the Cumbrian seat of Copeland currently held by Labour it is worth looking at another recent election in the area to get a sense of the voting patterns in the area.

Read the full story here


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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Glorious first!
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    Second ..... Grrh!
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    Third! like the Lib Dems & SLAB.....

    Gloomy prognosis for Europe in 2017:

    In 2016, the decision by the British to quit the European Union has robbed Europe of a member state that had a long tradition and experience in security, intelligence-gathering and defense.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2016/12/27/a-weakened-europe-isnt-prepared-for-what-2017-may-bring
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited December 2016
    Fourth like Labour, if an independent stands?

    Can anyone with some local knowledge fill us in about this local independent mayor - what are his policies and is there any chance of him or one of his supporters standing in the by-election?

    There's a price of 70 on Betfair for any other than Con, Lab, UKIP, LD and Green to win.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/#/politics/event/28056513/market?marketId=1.128848952
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Third! like the Lib Dems & SLAB.....

    Gloomy prognosis for Europe in 2017:

    In 2016, the decision by the British to quit the European Union has robbed Europe of a member state that had a long tradition and experience in security, intelligence-gathering and defense.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2016/12/27/a-weakened-europe-isnt-prepared-for-what-2017-may-bring

    That's a very good read. How will European governments react to being told by the US to stump up the 2% they are committed to, as the Americans cut defence spending - at the same time as a destabilising Russia widens her reach and terrorist activity increases?

    It also makes the good point that British intelligence will be a card to keep up our sleeves as we negotiate the EU exit. Given that the EU bureaucracy want to take over intelligence operations from the nation states of Europe, we can offer them our continuing support in such matters.
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    Sandpit said:

    That's a very good read. How will European governments react to being told by the US to stump up the 2% they are committed to, as the Americans cut defence spending - at the same time as a destabilising Russia widens her reach and terrorist activity increases?

    It also makes the good point that British intelligence will be a card to keep up our sleeves as we negotiate the EU exit. Given that the EU bureaucracy want to take over intelligence operations from the nation states of Europe, we can offer them our continuing support in such matters.

    It won't be a huge change overnight - the EU doesn't do huge changes overnight - but I think they'll cough up. The right are always in favour of having more guns and bombs, and a Trump-Putin White Nationalist Axis of Evil is pretty much the best advert you could dream up to get the left on board as well.

    EU military spending is also a great place the hide fiscal transfers that everyone knows the Eurozone needs but nobody knows how to sell to northern voters. The security challenges are at the periphery, and if you want to hire people to get shot by the Russians for you, it's more cost-effective to do it where life is cheapest.

    As for intelligence and military help, it's definitely something the British have that the rest of the EU wants. I'm not sure exactly how you'd fit it into a deal, though. It works as an unspoken quid-pro-quo, but you can't hide the benefits to the other member states too well or you won't be able to get the deal through their parliaments.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited December 2016


    It won't be a huge change overnight - the EU doesn't do huge changes overnight - but I think they'll cough up. The right are always in favour of having more guns and bombs, and a Trump-Putin White Nationalist Axis of Evil is pretty much the best advert you could dream up to get the left on board as well.

    EU military spending is also a great place the hide fiscal transfers that everyone knows the Eurozone needs but nobody knows how to sell to northern voters. The security challenges are at the periphery, and if you want to hire people to get shot by the Russians for you, it's more cost-effective to do it where life is cheapest.

    As for intelligence and military help, it's definitely something the British have that the rest of the EU wants. I'm not sure exactly how you'd fit it into a deal, though. It works as an unspoken quid-pro-quo, but you can't hide the benefits to the other member states too well or you won't be able to get the deal through their parliaments.

    Yes, Trump's first actions on defence are going to be very interesting to watch. He's already signalled his disapproval at some of the larger projects which appear to be little more than money pits for contractors and lobbyists. He'd much rather put his resources into tackling domestic problems - rather than defending Europe from Russia because Europe can't be arsed to do it themselves.

    As you say, nothing ever happens quickly at EU level, which is why I think an EU Army would be little more than another layer of brass hats who endlessly procrastinate any actions. That said, there's definitely an incentive to use such an organisation as a cover for targeting fiscal transfers to areas of relative decline in eastern and Southern Europe, so it will probably happen eventually, even if I can't see many young Poles signing up to fight for Germany and JC Drunker.

    A good start would be to enhance co-operation on intelligence and security matters, and here the British can show their worth, in or out of the EU political structures. The work done by GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 can't be easily taught to others, it comes from nearly a century of experience, but it can certainly be sold to the EU governments as critically important to them. As an example it's well known that the British are well embedded in my part of the world, for historic reasons, assisting local governments and providing invaluable intelligence to the whole Western world. I'd wager there's probably a lot already going on behind the scenes in this area now, in Europe, that we will never know about.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Sandpit said:

    Fourth like Labour, if an independent stands?

    Can anyone with some local knowledge fill us in about this local independent mayor - what are his policies and is there any chance of him or one of his supporters standing in the by-election?

    There's a price of 70 on Betfair for any other than Con, Lab, UKIP, LD and Green to win.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/#/politics/event/28056513/market?marketId=1.128848952

    Noteworthy, perhaps, that neither the LibDems or the Green stood against him. The point that the Labour candidate got a very poor number of 'second choices’ is a good one, too.
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    Sandpit said:

    Fourth like Labour, if an independent stands?

    Can anyone with some local knowledge fill us in about this local independent mayor - what are his policies and is there any chance of him or one of his supporters standing in the by-election?

    There's a price of 70 on Betfair for any other than Con, Lab, UKIP, LD and Green to win.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/#/politics/event/28056513/market?marketId=1.128848952

    Noteworthy, perhaps, that neither the LibDems or the Green stood against him. The point that the Labour candidate got a very poor number of 'second choices’ is a good one, too.
    Googling it up the Tory candidate there was quite positive about him as well. It's not quite an outright endorsement for second preferences but it's pretty close: http://chris4copeland.blogspot.jp/2015/03/and-then-there-were-three.html
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    Fourth like Labour, if an independent stands?

    Can anyone with some local knowledge fill us in about this local independent mayor - what are his policies and is there any chance of him or one of his supporters standing in the by-election?

    There's a price of 70 on Betfair for any other than Con, Lab, UKIP, LD and Green to win.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/#/politics/event/28056513/market?marketId=1.128848952

    Noteworthy, perhaps, that neither the LibDems or the Green stood against him. The point that the Labour candidate got a very poor number of 'second choices’ is a good one, too.
    Googling it up the Tory candidate there was quite positive about him as well. It's not quite an outright endorsement for second preferences but it's pretty close: http://chris4copeland.blogspot.jp/2015/03/and-then-there-were-three.html
    Good link. I wonder if Mr Copeland might be the Con candidate for the BE, he's obviously got a good local following?
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    edited December 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Given that the EU bureaucracy want to take over intelligence operations from the nation states of Europe, we can offer them our continuing support in such matters.

    We CAN, but should we? Given the EU's habit of cocking up everything it touches, and the unreliability of some of its members, I'm not so sure we should increase our intelligence sharing with them. If a pro-Russian government is ever installed in Germany (remember Ostpolitik?) or one of the Baltic states, for example, we could find assets or intelligence compromised. I'm happiest sharing intelligence with like-minded, time-tested democracies. The Five Eyes agreement is the best example of that.

    Also, of course, the Americans, from whom we gain so much in intelligence matters, might look askance at such arrangements. Not sure if they would, but it's certainly a consideration.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Right at the back of my addled mind is the thought that Chris Whiteside was once a pb poster.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Sandpit, it's my understanding we've limited the sharing of intelligence with the Germans because it simply ends up in the wrong hands.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Given that the EU bureaucracy want to take over intelligence operations from the nation states of Europe, we can offer them our continuing support in such matters.

    We CAN, but should we? Given the EU's habit of cocking up everything it touches, and the unreliability of some of its members, I'm not so sure we should increase our intelligence sharing with them. If a pro-Russian government is ever installed in Germany (remember Ostpolitik?) or one of the Baltic states, for example, we could find assets or intelligence compromised. I'm happiest sharing intelligence with like-minded, time-tested democracies. The Five Eyes agreement is the best example of that.

    Also, of course, the Americans, from whom we gain so much in intelligence matters, might look askance at such arrangements. Not sure if they would, but it's certainly a consideration.
    You definitely have a point there about intelligence sharing, and it's definitely an area where careful treading and diplomacy are required, rather than the political bluster we've seen from British and European politicians over the last year or so. The politicians need to stay out of it, except to understand that it's too important for he UK to be cut off as we leave the political EU.

    I would think that the British sharing of information with the EU and its governments would be discussing suspects and targets, rather than the more detailed sharing of assets that happens under Five Eyes - whilest also working to train the Europeans to run their own operations. But yes, it's diplomatically a very sensitive area and needs to be done carefully.
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    Mr. O, you might well be right.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    An interesting subject to be brought up three days before the NY Honours are announced.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/27/camerons-cronies-backlash-nominated-peers-could-have-prove-have/

    Lord Bew, chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, told The Telegraph the idea of putting political appointments through rigorous interviews should be considered.

    The crossbench peer said his committee was “very interested” in tighter safeguards to ensure that only those suitable to enter the House of Lords are picked.
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    JohnO said:

    Right at the back of my addled mind is the thought that Chris Whiteside was once a pb poster.

    He was, before the 2010 election in which he stood in this seat.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Why is Mike pushing third parties so hard? Is he wearing his betting head or his campaigning head?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Jonathan said:

    Why is Mike pushing third parties so hard? Is he wearing his betting head or his campaigning head?

    There's 70 to be had on Betfair for an indy winner, but no indication that one is standing and very little information about the incumbent mayor and his team.

    Hell, the sitting MP isn't going to resign for another month, and the by-election could be four months away yet, on May 4th.

    I think it's a quiet time between now and the A50 court judgement, after which it will be non-stop Brexit for the next two years!
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    Mr. Sandpit, non-stop? Presumably you mean 'excepting Formula 1'?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Mr. Sandpit, non-stop? Presumably you mean 'excepting Formula 1'?

    Obviously excepting F1. ;) Hopefully Bottas gets announced soon as I've a few quid on him at 5/2 for the Mercedes seat, and want to get my ticket for Bahrain before the price goes up in January!

    By the way, Joe Saward's blog is doing a daily F1 story over the closed season. Today's is that the 1981 Monaco GP was postponed by an hour as it was raining - not on the track, but in the tunnel!
    https://joesaward.wordpress.com/
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    Cheers for that heads up on Joe Saward's blog, Mr. Sandpit.

    *sighs* Bit irked at myself for only backing Bottas to be top 3 rather than for the seat. Ah well.

    Mr. Observer, Defence, like power generation, seems to be an area where all the major parties are ****ing terrible.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    It's the Telegraph. It's either:

    A. Untrue; or

    B. A puff piece for the UK defence industry.

    I'd take the latter here (should have bought BAE, no currency risk).
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Well let's start with all the surplus military land that can be sold for much-needed development, and the huge number of brass hats sitting in that fancy office in Whitehall waiting for their massive pensions to kick in.

    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    What the UK has to offer is firstly GCHQ and secondly the shared intelligence with the US that this has access to. A problem is clearly going to be the extent to which GCHQ intelligence comes from, well spying, on EU internet and telephony services. Are the Europeans going to be keen for that to happen and even facilitate it or are they going to seek to harden their systems to make it more difficult?

    It is in our interests that Europe is not a safe haven for terrorists. It is in their interests to have access to the sort of intelligence that GCHQ can provide. But will they tolerate it once we are out?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    What the UK has to offer is firstly GCHQ and secondly the shared intelligence with the US that this has access to. A problem is clearly going to be the extent to which GCHQ intelligence comes from, well spying, on EU internet and telephony services. Are the Europeans going to be keen for that to happen and even facilitate it or are they going to seek to harden their systems to make it more difficult?

    It is in our interests that Europe is not a safe haven for terrorists. It is in their interests to have access to the sort of intelligence that GCHQ can provide. But will they tolerate it once we are out?

    That's a really informative article, thanks for posting.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    What the UK has to offer is firstly GCHQ and secondly the shared intelligence with the US that this has access to. A problem is clearly going to be the extent to which GCHQ intelligence comes from, well spying, on EU internet and telephony services. Are the Europeans going to be keen for that to happen and even facilitate it or are they going to seek to harden their systems to make it more difficult?

    It is in our interests that Europe is not a safe haven for terrorists. It is in their interests to have access to the sort of intelligence that GCHQ can provide. But will they tolerate it once we are out?

    That's a really informative article, thanks for posting.
    It is really good on structures, not so much on capabilities.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    50yrs of Eurovision with Terry on Yesterday now
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    edited December 2016
    Sandpit said:

    An interesting subject to be brought up three days before the NY Honours are announced.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/27/camerons-cronies-backlash-nominated-peers-could-have-prove-have/

    Lord Bew, chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, told The Telegraph the idea of putting political appointments through rigorous interviews should be considered.

    The crossbench peer said his committee was “very interested” in tighter safeguards to ensure that only those suitable to enter the House of Lords are picked.

    Baron Cameron of Witney? Lord Farage of Thanet?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    What the UK has to offer is firstly GCHQ and secondly the shared intelligence with the US that this has access to. A problem is clearly going to be the extent to which GCHQ intelligence comes from, well spying, on EU internet and telephony services. Are the Europeans going to be keen for that to happen and even facilitate it or are they going to seek to harden their systems to make it more difficult?

    It is in our interests that Europe is not a safe haven for terrorists. It is in their interests to have access to the sort of intelligence that GCHQ can provide. But will they tolerate it once we are out?

    That's a really informative article, thanks for posting.
    It is really good on structures, not so much on capabilities.
    Yes, it's very "EU" in content, which is unsurprising given the source.

    My fear about "More EU" in defence and intelligence is that there will be hundreds of talking shops but few decisions made, and little actual capability in relation to the money spent - which will be in a top-heavy management and board structures to match the various EU institutions, rather than investing in assets as seen in smaller countries such as the UK and Israel.
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    Mr. Sandpit, the chief wound caused by 'More EU' won't be shrapnel, explosive damage or bullet holes, but paper cuts.

    It'll be like when an early Eastern Emperor reduced the number of men in a legion to just 1,000, so that the roll call of legions sounded more impressive.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    What is being passed to the CIA from GCHQ?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Re Richard Adams, he's an example (following our discussion a few days ago) of someone whose literary career took off late in life (he flourished in his 50's and 60's)
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Sandpit said:

    Third! like the Lib Dems & SLAB.....

    Gloomy prognosis for Europe in 2017:

    In 2016, the decision by the British to quit the European Union has robbed Europe of a member state that had a long tradition and experience in security, intelligence-gathering and defense.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2016/12/27/a-weakened-europe-isnt-prepared-for-what-2017-may-bring

    That's a very good read. How will European governments react to being told by the US to stump up the 2% they are committed to, as the Americans cut defence spending - at the same time as a destabilising Russia widens her reach and terrorist activity increases?

    It also makes the good point that British intelligence will be a card to keep up our sleeves as we negotiate the EU exit. Given that the EU bureaucracy want to take over intelligence operations from the nation states of Europe, we can offer them our continuing support in such matters.
    Keep hoping we have something they want , it will make you feel better as the three amigos get us teh worst deal in history.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Lightweight Obama , cannot stand up to trump so tries to bully Corbyn now , how pathetic can the loser get.
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    Sandpit said:

    Well let's start with all the surplus military land that can be sold for much-needed development, and the huge number of brass hats sitting in that fancy office in Whitehall waiting for their massive pensions to kick in.

    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.
    Land sales have already been announced. How many brass hats' salaries is the equivalent of, say, a working anti-ship missile system?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    An interesting subject to be brought up three days before the NY Honours are announced.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/27/camerons-cronies-backlash-nominated-peers-could-have-prove-have/

    Lord Bew, chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, told The Telegraph the idea of putting political appointments through rigorous interviews should be considered.

    The crossbench peer said his committee was “very interested” in tighter safeguards to ensure that only those suitable to enter the House of Lords are picked.

    Baron Cameron of Witney?
    To be fair, as a former PM he has every right to go to the Red Benches.

    I suspect he will do the lecture circuit for a few years, write his memoir and retire in a similar way to Sir John Major. It will be interesting to see what's in store for Cameron in the NY Honours, that might give us an indication of how he sees his future public life.

    I did wonder at some of the outgoing PM's awards, but, to be fair to him, given that "Prime Minister's Resignation Honours" exist, who did we expect them to be given to? They exist purely to reward those whom the outgoing PM wishes to thank officially for contributing to his time in office. One can argue whether that's a good thing or bad though, or whether people contribute (especially party donors contributing financially) in the expectation of an Honour down the line.

    Personally I'm in favour of reducing the number of Honours given out, but would rebalance them in favour of those who have genuinely achieved something extraordinary in life, to scientists and athletes rather than party donors and SpAds.
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    JohnO said:

    Right at the back of my addled mind is the thought that Chris Whiteside was once a pb poster.

    He still is, albeit a most infrequent poster.
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    So that's two consecutive threads on pb that discuss AV, the finest voting system known to man.

    We know how to spoil PBers during the Winterval period.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Sandpit said:

    Well let's start with all the surplus military land that can be sold for much-needed development, and the huge number of brass hats sitting in that fancy office in Whitehall waiting for their massive pensions to kick in.

    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.
    We still have more than 30 admirals and about 20 surface ships of any substance and some submarines. Do we need more than 1 with such a small navy? If we got rid of 30 admirals and their support staff would we be able to afford more surface vessels or even some aircraft for the carriers? Very similar criticisms could be made of the other armed forces.

    The people making the cuts are those in head office and funnily enough they have not considered cutting themselves the priority. The failure to tackle this shambles is one of the reasons I look a little askance when people claim Hammond is competent. He did not grasp this thistle at all.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    One of the issues in this constituency will be the National Grid's proposal to have electricity pylons across part of the Duddon Valley rather than underground as in the National Park. The Duddon Valley is an area of great beauty and not tremendously well known but there is a campaign afoot to try and persuade National Grid to extend their tunnel so that this area remains unspoilt.

    How it will affect the voting I have no idea. The deadline for submissions is early January.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited December 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Well let's start with all the surplus military land that can be sold for much-needed development, and the huge number of brass hats sitting in that fancy office in Whitehall waiting for their massive pensions to kick in.

    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.
    Land sales have already been announced. How many brass hats' salaries is the equivalent of, say, a working anti-ship missile system?
    The issue with the Top Brass costs (and the Civil Service have the same problem) is ongoing pensions. Not sure how much it still goes on, but the practice used to be to give someone a promotion in each of their last two years, which significantly increased their annual pension in retirement. Such people could easily earn more in retirement than they ever did in service, even in real terms.

    Military pensions are AIUI now going to be counted in the 2% figure, so hopefully that sort of culture will start to change.
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    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    An interesting subject to be brought up three days before the NY Honours are announced.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/27/camerons-cronies-backlash-nominated-peers-could-have-prove-have/

    Lord Bew, chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, told The Telegraph the idea of putting political appointments through rigorous interviews should be considered.

    The crossbench peer said his committee was “very interested” in tighter safeguards to ensure that only those suitable to enter the House of Lords are picked.

    Baron Cameron of Witney?
    To be fair, as a former PM he has every right to go to the Red Benches.

    I suspect he will do the lecture circuit for a few years, write his memoir and retire in a similar way to Sir John Major. It will be interesting to see what's in store for Cameron in the NY Honours, that might give us an indication of how he sees his future public life.

    I did wonder at some of the outgoing PM's awards, but, to be fair to him, given that "Prime Minister's Resignation Honours" exist, who did we expect them to be given to? They exist purely to reward those whom the outgoing PM wishes to thank officially for contributing to his time in office. One can argue whether that's a good thing or bad though, or whether people contribute (especially party donors contributing financially) in the expectation of an Honour down the line.

    Personally I'm in favour of reducing the number of Honours given out, but would rebalance them in favour of those who have genuinely achieved something extraordinary in life, to scientists and athletes rather than party donors and SpAds.
    Dave's not going to the Lords.

    One of the reasons he quit as an MP was he didn't want to vote regularly against his successor/against the only manifesto the Tories have won a majority in the last 20 odd years.

    The only honour he will receive in the future is the Order of the Garter, but he's got two people ahead of him on that front, and membership of that order is restricted to a couple of dozen.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999
    Sandpit said:



    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.

    Defence is one area that should be seeing massive cuts. The Royal Navy has 38 Admirals but only 30 fighting ships/subs.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    DavidL, something is going wrong when we have still one of the world's biggest military budgets, but would struggle to put 20,000 soldiers into the field.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999
    Defence policy has been corporate workfare for years but it's (apparently) political suicide to do otherwise. Any defence capability we might accrue from the billions spent keeping people in the North and Scotland off the dole is a happy bonus.
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.

    Defence is one area that should be seeing massive cuts. The Royal Navy has 38 Admirals but only 30 fighting ships/subs.
    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    Conservative Defence Secretaries have been hacking away at the armed forces since Mrs Thatcher's government at least, and the cuts will hit our front lines because they always do, and because no amount of messing around with cheaper wines at mess dinners will save more than peanuts.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    An interesting subject to be brought up three days before the NY Honours are announced.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/27/camerons-cronies-backlash-nominated-peers-could-have-prove-have/

    Lord Bew, chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, told The Telegraph the idea of putting political appointments through rigorous interviews should be considered.

    The crossbench peer said his committee was “very interested” in tighter safeguards to ensure that only those suitable to enter the House of Lords are picked.

    Baron Cameron of Witney?
    To be fair, as a former PM he has every right to go to the Red Benches.

    I suspect he will do the lecture circuit for a few years, write his memoir and retire in a similar way to Sir John Major. It will be interesting to see what's in store for Cameron in the NY Honours, that might give us an indication of how he sees his future public life.

    I did wonder at some of the outgoing PM's awards, but, to be fair to him, given that "Prime Minister's Resignation Honours" exist, who did we expect them to be given to? They exist purely to reward those whom the outgoing PM wishes to thank officially for contributing to his time in office. One can argue whether that's a good thing or bad though, or whether people contribute (especially party donors contributing financially) in the expectation of an Honour down the line.

    Personally I'm in favour of reducing the number of Honours given out, but would rebalance them in favour of those who have genuinely achieved something extraordinary in life, to scientists and athletes rather than party donors and SpAds.
    Dave's not going to the Lords.

    One of the reasons he quit as an MP was he didn't want to vote regularly against his successor/against the only manifesto the Tories have won a majority in the last 20 odd years.

    The only honour he will receive in the future is the Order of the Garter, but he's got two people ahead of him on that front, and membership of that order is restricted to a couple of dozen.
    Wiki reckons there's two vacancies in the Order of the Garter, four members in their nineties and four more aged over 85.
    However, of the current Members, 64 was the youngest age on appointment - David Cameron is only 50.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_Knights_and_Ladies_of_the_Garter
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    An interesting subject to be brought up three days before the NY Honours are announced.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/27/camerons-cronies-backlash-nominated-peers-could-have-prove-have/

    Lord Bew, chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, told The Telegraph the idea of putting political appointments through rigorous interviews should be considered.

    The crossbench peer said his committee was “very interested” in tighter safeguards to ensure that only those suitable to enter the House of Lords are picked.

    Baron Cameron of Witney?
    To be fair, as a former PM he has every right to go to the Red Benches.

    I suspect he will do the lecture circuit for a few years, write his memoir and retire in a similar way to Sir John Major. It will be interesting to see what's in store for Cameron in the NY Honours, that might give us an indication of how he sees his future public life.

    I did wonder at some of the outgoing PM's awards, but, to be fair to him, given that "Prime Minister's Resignation Honours" exist, who did we expect them to be given to? They exist purely to reward those whom the outgoing PM wishes to thank officially for contributing to his time in office. One can argue whether that's a good thing or bad though, or whether people contribute (especially party donors contributing financially) in the expectation of an Honour down the line.

    Personally I'm in favour of reducing the number of Honours given out, but would rebalance them in favour of those who have genuinely achieved something extraordinary in life, to scientists and athletes rather than party donors and SpAds.
    Dave's not going to the Lords.

    One of the reasons he quit as an MP was he didn't want to vote regularly against his successor/against the only manifesto the Tories have won a majority in the last 20 odd years.

    The only honour he will receive in the future is the Order of the Garter, but he's got two people ahead of him on that front, and membership of that order is restricted to a couple of dozen.
    He wouldn't sit in the Lords with an hereditary earldom, would he?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL, something is going wrong when we have still one of the world's biggest military budgets, but would struggle to put 20,000 soldiers into the field.

    Completely agree. In Afghanistan we struggled to maintain a force of 10K men over a very extended period of time with the front line troops having to do too many rotations which causes a great deal of family stress and resignations from your more experienced men.

    Although there are plans to cut them we currently have in excess of 200 brigadiers and generals. That really should be plenty for an army of 500K, not 82K. These are the current plans: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30962007 They do not strike me as nearly drastic enough in respect of the senior officers.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999



    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    How are they plane-less? 17(R) squadron at Edwards AFB has F-35s right now.
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    Sean_F said:

    DavidL, something is going wrong when we have still one of the world's biggest military budgets, but would struggle to put 20,000 soldiers into the field.

    Nuclear weapons are not cheap. Well, ours aren't.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616
    edited December 2016
    Is anyone surprised that Tory voters gave their second preferences to the 'not Labour' candidate?

    What would be interesting to know is how Starkie's second preferences split between the two other candidates. If the Tory had sneaked second, Labour could well have won.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.

    Defence is one area that should be seeing massive cuts. The Royal Navy has 38 Admirals but only 30 fighting ships/subs.
    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    Conservative Defence Secretaries have been hacking away at the armed forces since Mrs Thatcher's government at least, and the cuts will hit our front lines because they always do, and because no amount of messing around with cheaper wines at mess dinners will save more than peanuts.
    You completely underestimate what these senior officers cost. They not only have humongous pensions, they have large staffs, reporting structures, kit, offices, accommodation, transport etc etc.
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    Dura_Ace said:



    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    How are they plane-less? 17(R) squadron at Edwards AFB has F-35s right now.
    The RAF is testing planes in California, you mean?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited December 2016
    Dura_Ace said:



    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    How are they plane-less? 17(R) squadron at Edwards AFB has F-35s right now.
    Yes, but they're still testing developing them at Edwards AFB in the USA, appear to be several years away from having them fit to fly operationally from the QE carrier. They still can't land vertically with weapons onboard.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    How are they plane-less? 17(R) squadron at Edwards AFB has F-35s right now.
    Yes, but they're still testing developing them at Edwards AFB in the USA, appear to be several years away from having them fit to fly operationally from the QE carrier. They still can't land vertically with weapons onboard.
    Don't they do a rolling landing with weapons attached?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRVL
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    @DecreiptJohn,

    Nuclear weapons are only a small part of the budget.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616
    If Russia starts shadowing our Trident subs 24/7, as suggested on the front page of the 'i' they would then be in a position to take them out prior to launching a preemptive nuclear strike on the UK. Under such a scenario, what is the point of renewing the 'deterrent'?
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    When was the last time a General (or equivalent in the RAF or RN) was killed in action?
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    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    Which is why it should be freed from government control and the consequent management timidity.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    @DavidL,

    With an army of 82,000 you should only need about 30 officers at that level.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Dura_Ace said:

    Defence policy has been corporate workfare for years but it's (apparently) political suicide to do otherwise. Any defence capability we might accrue from the billions spent keeping people in the North and Scotland off the dole is a happy bonus.

    What a joke. They are on the dole due to the waste by the halfwits in Westminster, they coudl produce 10's of times eth jobs that are produced by their willy waving toys.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Dura_Ace said:



    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    How are they plane-less? 17(R) squadron at Edwards AFB has F-35s right now.
    I see we have a new comedian on the site
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    edited December 2016

    When was the last time a General (or equivalent in the RAF or RN) was killed in action?

    From memory the most senior officer killed in combat in recent times was Colonel H Jones in the Falklands.

    Edit, there was a lieutenant colonel killed in Afghanistan. Rupert Thorneloe
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    It's hard to see why anyone would want a career in the armed forces. Not only are you underfunded, but the government seems quite happy to hang you out to dry when this country's enemies complain about you.
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    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    Which is why it should be freed from government control and the consequent management timidity.
    Skimming the thread it took me a few seconds to work out that this comment was about the BBC, not the British army. They both seem like strong candidates for privatization, for the same reasons.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    You could sack 37 of the 38 admirals and still not save enough to buy a single F-35 for one of our plane-less aircraft carriers.

    How are they plane-less? 17(R) squadron at Edwards AFB has F-35s right now.
    Yes, but they're still testing developing them at Edwards AFB in the USA, appear to be several years away from having them fit to fly operationally from the QE carrier. They still can't land vertically with weapons onboard.
    Don't they do a rolling landing with weapons attached?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRVL
    "SRVL landing is under development for use with the F-35B when it enters service with the Royal Navy in 2018.[3] The aircraft will operate in the STOVL mode on the new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers. Rolling landings will enable the F-35B to land on these carriers with an increased weapon and fuel load and will use the aircraft's computer controlled disc brakes. A number of defence analysts have suggested that operational SRVL landings may only be possible within a limited range of sea states.[4]"

    There's an awful lot of future tense in that article. Not happening any time soon!
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    When was the last time a General (or equivalent in the RAF or RN) was killed in action?

    Quite a few in Iraq and Syria but none British.

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    When was the last time a General (or equivalent in the RAF or RN) was killed in action?

    The IRA would say 1979 when they took out Admiral Mountbatten.

    The last conventional death in action I reckon is William Gott during WW2
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    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    Planet Earth has been a tour de force with brilliant photography, direction and commentary.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    Planet Earth has been a tour de force with brilliant photography, direction and commentary.
    Yes, there's some gems in the rough, the stuff no-one else produces and makes the BBC a World famous broadcaster.

    No need for the 90% of what they do that can be duplicated by commercial broadcasters though, as Top Gear are finding out.
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    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    First, most calls for a more ‘potent’ European intelligence function suffer from self-selection bias – i.e., they tends to come from actors with rather weak intelligence capabilities of their own who seek common solutions. As long as it is only small states with limited capacity (or the European Commission that has even less), which are calling for more centralised cooperation, the prospects for success are slim.

    Not sure the British & German intelligence services are talking to each other much:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/370547-german-spies-mi6-gchq/
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    JohnO said:

    Right at the back of my addled mind is the thought that Chris Whiteside was once a pb poster.

    He still is, albeit a most infrequent poster.
    Didn't he post just before Christmas, predicting a Con win and disparaging the LDs?

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    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    Dr Who on the other hand was utter utter s##t, with embarrassingly bad VFX.

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    JohnO said:

    Right at the back of my addled mind is the thought that Chris Whiteside was once a pb poster.

    He still is, albeit a most infrequent poster.
    Didn't he post just before Christmas, predicting a Con win and disparaging the LDs?

    Don't think so, his last post was in October
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2016
    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    It was rather good on the sleazier side of London in the Twenties, no country house murder this. The casual violence and grime of the police and prison were particularly well done, and a good plot twist too.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    First, most calls for a more ‘potent’ European intelligence function suffer from self-selection bias – i.e., they tends to come from actors with rather weak intelligence capabilities of their own who seek common solutions. As long as it is only small states with limited capacity (or the European Commission that has even less), which are calling for more centralised cooperation, the prospects for success are slim.

    Not sure the British & German intelligence services are talking to each other much:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/370547-german-spies-mi6-gchq/
    Not sure I would trust that source. They are hardly disinterested.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    JohnO said:

    Right at the back of my addled mind is the thought that Chris Whiteside was once a pb poster.

    He still is, albeit a most infrequent poster.
    Didn't he post just before Christmas, predicting a Con win and disparaging the LDs?

    Don't think so, his last post was in October
    Must have been another local Tory then. There seemed to be no love lost.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    David H

    "Which is why it should be freed from government control and the consequent management timidity. "

    And then it would be like ITV or Sky or it's various competitors. Cut corners all the way down the line until you sit the focus puller on a supermarket trolly because setting up a complex track takes too long and they don't have the budget.

    David Evershed.

    Absolutely but everyone recognises the BBC's brilliance on wildlife. In a drama it's the 1001 little details that no one really notices because the story is essentially the same but in one instance it's a Rolls Royce in the other a Trabant.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    First, most calls for a more ‘potent’ European intelligence function suffer from self-selection bias – i.e., they tends to come from actors with rather weak intelligence capabilities of their own who seek common solutions. As long as it is only small states with limited capacity (or the European Commission that has even less), which are calling for more centralised cooperation, the prospects for success are slim.

    Not sure the British & German intelligence services are talking to each other much:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/370547-german-spies-mi6-gchq/
    Not sure I would trust that source. They are hardly disinterested.
    But it's true that those wanting a more robust European intelligence solution are those without any right now - and that's where the UK has a huge advantage as the Brexit talks get underway.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    Dr Who on the other hand was utter utter s##t, with embarrassingly bad VFX.

    Dr Who need a decent scriptwriter able to reformulate a simple tale of peril and hero, rather than complex self referential time paradoxes.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    JohnO said:

    Right at the back of my addled mind is the thought that Chris Whiteside was once a pb poster.

    He still is, albeit a most infrequent poster.
    Didn't he post just before Christmas, predicting a Con win and disparaging the LDs?

    Don't think so, his last post was in October
    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/profile/comments/567/Chris_Whiteside
    His few posts certainly suggest he has a good knowledge of the Conservatives and of electoral processes.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    First, most calls for a more ‘potent’ European intelligence function suffer from self-selection bias – i.e., they tends to come from actors with rather weak intelligence capabilities of their own who seek common solutions. As long as it is only small states with limited capacity (or the European Commission that has even less), which are calling for more centralised cooperation, the prospects for success are slim.

    Not sure the British & German intelligence services are talking to each other much:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/370547-german-spies-mi6-gchq/
    Not sure I would trust that source. They are hardly disinterested.
    No, but there is a kernel of truth in that. Look at how the post attack operation was bungled in Germany and the reports of officials interfering and blocking the release of identity pictures due to racial sensitivity or some other rubbish. I don't think the Germans would get on board with GCHQs data and statistics driven approach.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Roger said:

    Completely OT. If anyone saw the Agatha Christie on TV over the last few nights I'd just like to put in a plug for the BBC. Technically it was a tour de force. Without going into whether it was a great story or not the technical bravura of this two hours of TV could only be done by the BBC.

    They get and train the very best and they unerringly know where to put their money. The people move on but the standards have been set. If any government decides to emasculate the organisation it's effect will appear some years down the line and even the likes of Hollywood will be the poorer for it.

    Dr Who on the other hand was utter utter s##t, with embarrassingly bad VFX.

    The bad VFX are part of the charm, surely, continuing the tradition of daleks made of sink plungers? As it is it genuinely takes me back to watching in the 1960s. Good special effects are two a penny these days and would make it just another sci fi series.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    BBC having a bit of a Renaissance. Netflix and Amazon stuffed with BBC content and talent.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    First, most calls for a more ‘potent’ European intelligence function suffer from self-selection bias – i.e., they tends to come from actors with rather weak intelligence capabilities of their own who seek common solutions. As long as it is only small states with limited capacity (or the European Commission that has even less), which are calling for more centralised cooperation, the prospects for success are slim.

    Not sure the British & German intelligence services are talking to each other much:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/370547-german-spies-mi6-gchq/
    Not sure I would trust that source. They are hardly disinterested.
    But it's true that those wanting a more robust European intelligence solution are those without any right now - and that's where the UK has a huge advantage as the Brexit talks get underway.
    That's undoubtedly true. And every outrage on the continent will increase the pressure.
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    Roger said:

    David H

    "Which is why it should be freed from government control and the consequent management timidity. "

    And then it would be like ITV or Sky or it's various competitors. Cut corners all the way down the line until you sit the focus puller on a supermarket trolly because setting up a complex track takes too long and they don't have the budget.

    David Evershed.

    Absolutely but everyone recognises the BBC's brilliance on wildlife. In a drama it's the 1001 little details that no one really notices because the story is essentially the same but in one instance it's a Rolls Royce in the other a Trabant.

    You think ITV are incapable of making good Agatha Christie dramas?

    David Suchet says hello.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Roger said:

    David H

    "Which is why it should be freed from government control and the consequent management timidity. "

    And then it would be like ITV or Sky or it's various competitors. Cut corners all the way down the line until you sit the focus puller on a supermarket trolly because setting up a complex track takes too long and they don't have the budget.

    David Evershed.

    Absolutely but everyone recognises the BBC's brilliance on wildlife. In a drama it's the 1001 little details that no one really notices because the story is essentially the same but in one instance it's a Rolls Royce in the other a Trabant.

    And yet the most successful British drama show for years was an ITV production and the best royal show was made by a unit belonging to Sony and "aired" by Netflix? The BBC dies wonderful work with documentaries, a cursory glance at BBC 4 shows that. But in the golden age of TV drama it has completely fallen behind private sector rivals despite secure a d huge budgets.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Francis

    "Dr Who on the other hand was utter utter s##t, with embarrassingly bad VFX."

    I've never watched it and can't imagine why anyone does. You'd be doing the BBC a favour if you didn't. They could move on....
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    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    First, most calls for a more ‘potent’ European intelligence function suffer from self-selection bias – i.e., they tends to come from actors with rather weak intelligence capabilities of their own who seek common solutions. As long as it is only small states with limited capacity (or the European Commission that has even less), which are calling for more centralised cooperation, the prospects for success are slim.

    Not sure the British & German intelligence services are talking to each other much:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/370547-german-spies-mi6-gchq/
    Not sure I would trust that source. They are hardly disinterested.
    They are quoting the Daily Mail.....there's plenty of stuff(including German) on mistrust between MI6 and BND
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that the comments below underestimate the extent of current co-operation on security matters. There is quite a good summary here: http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Brief_8_EU_Intelligence_Cooperation.pdf

    First, most calls for a more ‘potent’ European intelligence function suffer from self-selection bias – i.e., they tends to come from actors with rather weak intelligence capabilities of their own who seek common solutions. As long as it is only small states with limited capacity (or the European Commission that has even less), which are calling for more centralised cooperation, the prospects for success are slim.

    Not sure the British & German intelligence services are talking to each other much:

    https://www.rt.com/uk/370547-german-spies-mi6-gchq/
    Not sure I would trust that source. They are hardly disinterested.
    But it's true that those wanting a more robust European intelligence solution are those without any right now - and that's where the UK has a huge advantage as the Brexit talks get underway.
    That's undoubtedly true. And every outrage on the continent will increase the pressure.
    Yes, and as @MaxPB says above, look how the Germans f...ed up the aftermath of a terrorist incident - taking 24 hours to search the truck, then being more worried about their suspect's privacy than actually finding him!
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2016
    I've never watched it and can't imagine why anyone does. You'd be doing the BBC a favour if you didn't. They could move on....

    Not my choice, family and Christmas. But the response from family and guests was universal my god that was absolute utter shite (even among Dr Who fans).
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "It's hard to see why anyone would want a career in the armed forces. Not only are you underfunded, but the government seems quite happy to hang you out to dry when this country's enemies complain about you."

    I believe the armed forces are struggling to recruit and retain people. Not wholly for the reasons you give but hey are certainly part of the story.

    The RN/RFA seems to be in desperate straights in this regard with ships tied up alongside because they do not have enough people with the essential skills to crew them. One of the big problems for the RN is that its base numbers have been cut too far and so sailors are spending more and more time at sea. That is fine when you are young, single rating (its what you joined for after all) but not so good for senior rates in their thirties with wives and children to consider and it is those senior chaps, particularly in the engineering branches, that are vital to keep a ship functioning let alone fighting.

    Conversely, one of the problems with army recruiting is that there is no reasonable prospect of any actual action, unless you are in the special forces. Army recruiting fell of a cliff when we pulled out of Afghanistan. Some people struggle with this, but most squaddies join for the adventure and, whilst life in garrison towns can be violent (Catterick on a Saturday night used to be good for a fight), it is not adventurous. I have even read about people who have been in the parachute regiment for a couple of years, but have yet to make a parachute jump.

    I am not sure what the situation with the Crabs is, but there is one poster on this site who was a fairly senior officer in Crab Air and chucked his hand early in disgust. I'll not speak for him.

    Add to the above Cameron's complete failure to follow through on his pre-2010 promises in terms of conditions of service (especially housing), the continuous cuts, the false accounting, IHat investigations (and now even the PSNI going after blokes for events forty years ago whilst the PIRA fellows have immunity - don't bother knocking on my door, I won't be able to remember a thing), it is a wonder morale has not collapsed and that recruiting remains as high as it is.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    @CarlottaVance - not sure how much credibility to give to your post about German and British spies' spat. Remember that rt.com/uk is Putin's propaganda channel.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    r
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    There's plenty of MoD savings to be found if they look in the right places.

    Defence is one area that should be seeing massive cuts. The Royal Navy has 38 Admirals but only 30 fighting ships/subs.
    There was an episode of Yes, Prime Minister where Sir Humphrey mentions that that the RN has 26 Admirals but only 3 aircraft carriers.

    The reality now is much worse than the comedy of 30 years ago.
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