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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PETITION calling for everyone to be able to see a GP withi

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PETITION calling for everyone to be able to see a GP within 48 hours needs your support

Until 2016, I was typical of many thirty-somethings in that I had little need to see my local GP too often. This year that changed. Due to a recurring issue I found myself having to see the GP more regularly. Nothing critical, I’m fine, but this experience opened my eyes to a real problem and prompted me to want to find out more. In this post, I want to share my experience, start a debate and hopefully win some support for a petition I have started.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Surely this has to be caveated in some way? Some people's concerns are trivial and not urgent. They don't necessarily need to see the GP immediately. Saying that, reducing waiting lists is generally a good thing!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2016
    48hrs rule is too blunt. Often I don't want or need to see a GP within 2 days, I want to see them when it is convenient. When Blair tried to enforce this 48hr approach it caused lots of problems.

    Two words...Online Booking..the fact even the smallest of businesses these days have online booking and you can buy off the shelf systems makes the fact the majority of GP surgeries not having it both incredible and unacceptable.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited December 2016
    "FARAGE WILL NOT BE IN THE DEBATES"

    "Monty Hall"

    Will this part 3 succeed where The Godfather failed?
  • To my eternal shame, I forgot to put in my petition to officially rename "Brussels Sprouts" to "Freedom Sprouts" in time for Christmas!

    *facepalm*

  • 48hrs rule is too blunt. Often I don't want or need to see a GP within 2 days, I want to see them when it is convenient. When Blair tried to enforce this 48hr approach it caused lots of problems.

    Two words...Online Booking..the fact even the smallest of businesses these days have online booking and you can buy off the shelf systems makes the fact the majority of GP surgeries not having it both incredible and unacceptable.

    Until we start penalising people who don't turn up for appointments we're going to continue having problems.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    48hrs rule is too blunt. Often I don't want or need to see a GP within 2 days, I want to see them when it is convenient.

    Two words...Online Booking..the fact even the smallest of businesses these days have online booking and you can buy off the shelf systems makes the fact the majority of GP surgeries not having it both incredible and unacceptable.

    The current system at my local practise is the demented phone-at-8am-exactly for an appointment that day. They reserve a couple of appointments - queue speed redial to jam the the queue....

    Apparently having GP practise near work places would be Evil - though a number of years ago, when I worked for an oil major in London, they had an NHS GP and Dentist on site and part of the company. This enabled them (by the way) to deal with no-shows. You'd get a phone call a few minutes before your appointment as a reminder. Also, the dentists and doctors were on the company rolls as rather senior staff. So not turning up would be ignoring a meeting with a very senior manager....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    A GP's pension costs taxpayers something like £3m a head. They also cost us about £100K a year, plus staff, plus offices etc. And we get to pay for their training. How many more do we want to employ to meet this completely pointless target?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    @SeanT - I think I would be opposed to changing from our current legal system to one based on Sharia law. As for becoming majority Muslim... I'm sure similar discussions/thoughts were had when Christianity was encroaching on the world, and that didn't do us to badly!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Until we start penalising people who don't turn up for appointments we're going to continue having problems.

    My BUPA dentist did that as standard.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_P said:

    Until we start penalising people who don't turn up for appointments we're going to continue having problems.

    My BUPA dentist did that as standard.
    My old NHS dentist did that, and my current non-NHS one does too. I thought it was standard within 24 hours?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I doubt Farage as PM would do anything to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. As I have shown here before, London will probably be majority Muslim by 2050. The damage is done.

    Enoch Powell said if he felt the problem could not be stopped, then he would do his utmost to limit the damage. In the late 60s, he thought it was possible to prevent it coming to this, but Ted Heath prevented any action being taken. Now I think even Enoch would say we have to make the best of what we have got.

    Mixed marriage is our only hope I reckon.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The NHS is the ultimate free bar. An all you can eat buffet.

    The focus has to be on excessive demand. The public are ready. It's one of the reasons they voted Leave.

    Mine a little deeper and all those grievances so readily aired about welfare will surface about healthcare. Money wasted, time wasters, people splurging on the system. It will all be there.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    edited December 2016
    Setting a target all too often puts yet another burden on the shoulders of the providers who are already ill-equipped to meet the demands. All very well to say "We/they should be able to" but if we aren't willing/able to address (or even identify) fundamental blocks to meeting the targets, we're spitting in the wind.

    Is the real answer more & ever more money?

    Why don't we identify a country (anywhere in the world) where the health system works without big problems and implement it here?

    We could start by looking at the places where the majority of emigrating doctors go. Is the system there only really attractive to the producers, but less so to the customers?

    So many questions; chief one is, are there any answers?

    (Edited to add: good evening, everyone)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    @SeanT - I think I would be opposed to changing from our current legal system to one based on Sharia law. As for becoming majority Muslim... I'm sure similar discussions/thoughts were had when Christianity was encroaching on the world, and that didn't do us to badly!

    Answer. The. Question.

    It's really that simple.

    Well I answered one of them!
  • @SeanT

    Le Pen and Farage
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Not sure about a petition for this...
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    No doubt reading these comments will be depressing and the all-the-NHS-needs-is-more -efficiency brigade will be out in force.

    Once you've manged to see your GP of course you have to hope that the CCG (or NHSE if you've got something really exotic) have the cash to pay for the treatment.
  • I called my surgery on the Tuesday before Christmas and was in to see a GP by 10.30am. I suspect this so called crisis is one many people will simply not recognise. In case anyone is interested I'm in Morley.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    And in order to fulfill the pledge we need far, far more doctors (even getting to the European average for patients/doctor would be a start). Hunt has pissed off all the juniors and Rudd has pissed off all the Europeans, so where are they coming from?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited December 2016
    I was discussing the NHS the other day with a friend, we need to start charging based on income.

    I've had an illness since birth that requires monthly prescriptions, which the NHS doesn't charge me for. I'm on a decent salary, and I feel guilty that someone on a low paid/minium wage job has to pay for their irregular prescriptions.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    I was discussing the NHS the other day with a friend, we need to start charging based on income.

    I've had an illness since birth that requires monthly prescriptions, which the NHS doesn't charge me for. I'm on a decent salary, and I feel guilty that someone on a low paid/minium wage job has to pay for their prescriptions.

    It sort of is with income tax.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2016

    48hrs rule is too blunt. Often I don't want or need to see a GP within 2 days, I want to see them when it is convenient.

    Two words...Online Booking..the fact even the smallest of businesses these days have online booking and you can buy off the shelf systems makes the fact the majority of GP surgeries not having it both incredible and unacceptable.

    The current system at my local practise is the demented phone-at-8am-exactly for an appointment that day. They reserve a couple of appointments - queue speed redial to jam the the queue....

    Apparently having GP practise near work places would be Evil - though a number of years ago, when I worked for an oil major in London, they had an NHS GP and Dentist on site and part of the company. This enabled them (by the way) to deal with no-shows. You'd get a phone call a few minutes before your appointment as a reminder. Also, the dentists and doctors were on the company rolls as rather senior staff. So not turning up would be ignoring a meeting with a very senior manager....
    As well as the demented phone at 8am being massively inefficient for both patient and GP surgery, it ain't much of a service, nor is the inability to be able to choose GP near your place of work. I can for a dentist, but not for a GP is crackers.

    I know the government once talked about a) making all GP surgeries get online booking by well years ago and b) enabling individuals to choose which GP surgery they would like to register, but both appear to have been kicked into the long grass.

    Online is particular gripe of mine, because anybody with reasonable IT knowledge knows it is possible to set this up for a small business very very easily.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    My GP has an appointments system and sometimes it can take a fortnight to get a non-urgent appointment. But the practice also has a nurse who does the flu injections, smear tests and asthma clinics.

    Even more usefully, if you need an urgent appointment, the practice keeps the middle of the day free for these. So if you ring after 9 am you can get an appointment within hours, sometimes within the hour, to see a doctor. It works very well indeed.

    As someone whose health, sadly, has necessitated a lot of visits to doctors and hospitals in recent years, I am very impressed by my current GP practice.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited December 2016
    SeanT said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I doubt Farage as PM would do anything to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. As I have shown here before, London will probably be majority Muslim by 2050. The damage is done.

    Enoch Powell said if he felt the problem could not be stopped, then he would do his utmost to limit the damage. In the late 60s, he thought it was possible to prevent it coming to this, but Ted Heath prevented any action being taken. Now I think even Enoch would say we have to make the best of what we have got.

    Mixed marriage is our only hope I reckon.
    How about answering the question? How far would you go, electorally, to prevent Britain becoming a majority Muslim country? i.e. would you help elect a government which explicitly had a "racist" immigration policy - No More Muslims?

    I've been honest. I would, in these extreme and distressing circumstances, vote for Farage, and even Le Pen or Wilders, and I'd probably go so far as to vote for a Mussolini-type government, with much misery and lamentation.

    Come on PB. Man up. Call me a racist. I don't care. But address the question.
    I have already voted for UKIP, campaigned for them, and was on the verge of becoming their candidate for Islington South! Seeing as my political hero is Enoch Powell, and I think the biggest mistake the country ever made was not listening to him, is it really difficult to guess my answer?!

    I just don't want to get banned from the site anymore!! Always wary of traps...
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I doubt Farage as PM would do anything to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. As I have shown here before, London will probably be majority Muslim by 2050. The damage is done.

    Enoch Powell said if he felt the problem could not be stopped, then he would do his utmost to limit the damage. In the late 60s, he thought it was possible to prevent it coming to this, but Ted Heath prevented any action being taken. Now I think even Enoch would say we have to make the best of what we have got.

    Mixed marriage is our only hope I reckon.
    4.5% of the population is Muslim. We do not need Farage to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. Get a grip man.
  • @SeanT

    Vote for Farage or Le Pen.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited December 2016
    DavidL said:

    A GP's pension costs taxpayers something like £3m a head. They also cost us about £100K a year, plus staff, plus offices etc. And we get to pay for their training. How many more do we want to employ to meet this completely pointless target?

    Then why are they always whinging ?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited December 2016
    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    Tough questions because Nazism and Islamism are both Master Race (or religion) theory, authoritarianism and brutality.

    I know Farage and Le Pen aren't Nazism but I'm really not sure how far some of them would go given enough freedom. I'm fairly strongly pro-independence, but no great fan of Farage or numerous other Kippers.

    Forced at gunpoint to make a choice, I'd opt for the one most likely to favour my family's background but I find the extreme right and the Islamists to be almost equally unpalatable.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    My GP has an appointments system and sometimes it can take a fortnight to get a non-urgent appointment. But the practice also has a nurse who does the flu injections, smear tests and asthma clinics.

    Even more usefully, if you need an urgent appointment, the practice keeps the middle of the day free for these. So if you ring after 9 am you can get an appointment within hours, sometimes within the hour, to see a doctor. It works very well indeed.

    As someone whose health, sadly, has necessitated a lot of visits to doctors and hospitals in recent years, I am very impressed by my current GP practice.
  • Pleased to see Ray Davies get a knighthood.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    chestnut said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    Tough questions because Nazism and Islamism are both Master Race theory, authoritarianism and brutality.

    I know Farage and Le Pen aren't Nazism but I'm really not sure how far some of them would go given enough freedom. I'm fairly strongly pro-independence, but no great fan of Farage or numerous other Kippers.

    Forced at gunpoint to make a choice, I'd opt for the one most likely to favour my family's background but I find the extreme right and the Islamists to be almost equally unpalatable.
    Yeah, I agree with your last paragraph. An unpleasant choice to say the least!
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I doubt Farage as PM would do anything to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. As I have shown here before, London will probably be majority Muslim by 2050. The damage is done.

    Enoch Powell said if he felt the problem could not be stopped, then he would do his utmost to limit the damage. In the late 60s, he thought it was possible to prevent it coming to this, but Ted Heath prevented any action being taken. Now I think even Enoch would say we have to make the best of what we have got.

    Mixed marriage is our only hope I reckon.
    4.5% of the population is Muslim. We do not need Farage to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. Get a grip man.
    The % of Muslims in London rises almost 150% every decade. It was 12% in 2011. It isn't hard to see where its going
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    SeanT said:

    chestnut said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    Tough questions because Nazism and Islamism are both Master Race theory, authoritarianism and brutality.

    I know Farage and Le Pen aren't Nazism but I'm really not sure how far some of them would go given enough freedom. I'm fairly strongly pro-independence, but no great fan of Farage or numerous other Kippers.

    Forced at gunpoint to make a choice, I'd opt for the one most likely to favour my family's background but I find the extreme right and the Islamists to be almost equally unpalatable.
    lol. At least you tried. Blurred and slurred but you sorta got there. Kinda.

    Well done. Better than anyone else, so far.
    Eh? I am already doing it!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Couldn't they find a picture with her face in it? :smiley:
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    SeanT said:

    My God you're a

    SeanT said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I doubt Farage as PM would do anything to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. As I have shown here before, London will probably be majority Muslim by 2050. The damage is done.

    Enoch Powell said if he felt the problem could not be stopped, then he would do his utmost to limit the damage. In the late 60s, he thought it was possible to prevent it coming to this, but Ted Heath prevented any action being taken. Now I think even Enoch would say we have to make the best of what we have got.

    Mixed marriage is our only hope I reckon.
    4.5% of the population is Muslim. We do not need Farage to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. Get a grip man.
    But we have already seen how a Muslim minority of 5-10% can change the host society. What happens at 10-20%? 40%??

    Here's a challenge. Try answering the question. Do you have the guts?
    It's not a choice that's going to be before us. There's no point, it's a silly game.

    You come across as an angry man who is somewhat obsessed by Muslims. I wonder why that is?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    the petition is laudable but unrealistic. there are not enough GP's/
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    SeanT said:

    chestnut said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    Tough questions because Nazism and Islamism are both Master Race theory, authoritarianism and brutality.

    I know Farage and Le Pen aren't Nazism but I'm really not sure how far some of them would go given enough freedom. I'm fairly strongly pro-independence, but no great fan of Farage or numerous other Kippers.

    Forced at gunpoint to make a choice, I'd opt for the one most likely to favour my family's background but I find the extreme right and the Islamists to be almost equally unpalatable.
    lol. At least you tried. Blurred and slurred but you sorta got there. Kinda.

    Well done. Better than anyone else, so far.
    In a choice of 'Christian' nutters and Islamic nutters - christians will choose the christian option, muslims would choose the Islamic one.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2016
    SeanT said:

    @SeanT

    Vote for Farage or Le Pen.

    Well done. The only clear and honest answer so far.

    It is my sincere belief that non-Muslim racial minorities in Britain have a much more brutal, informed and honest perception of the threat posed by Islam to western democracies than complacent westerners themselves. Cf MaxPB
    That certainly echos the opinion of Maajid Nawaz.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited December 2016
    SeanT,

    Actually, if you did not want the UK to become majority Muslim then Brexit is probably the last thing you would support. Why do I say this? Well the migrants from Poland and other Eastern European countries don't tend to be Muslim. So they would have ensured that Muslims from the rest of the world were kept at bay.

    If you stopped ranting at everybody who happens to voice their concern about the coming economic dislocation that Brexit will no doubt hit us with, you might realise that Brexit WILL diminish the UK in terms of political and economic power. You might also realise that Muslim migrants are more likely to come now, than they would have been if we stayed in the EU. All these Brexit politicians like Fox, Johnson and Davis want immigration, who will this be well it will be the people a fascist does not like i.e, muslims.

    To be honest I would rather not have any migrants at all, however I accept for demographic reasons it is a necessity. The political decisions to increase pensioner benefits enhance the coming difficult decisions as everybody expects a state pension at retirement age and that money has to come from an increasing working population.
  • SeanT said:

    @SeanT

    Vote for Farage or Le Pen.

    Well done. The only clear and honest answer so far.

    It is my sincere belief that non-Muslim racial minorities in Britain have a much more brutal, informed and honest perception of the threat posed by Islam to western democracies than complacent westerners themselves. Cf MaxPB
    I would do the same. Muslim cultures are just too different.

    Plus a fascist can be deposed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    the petition is laudable but unrealistic. there are not enough GP's/

    What is laudable about it? A target plucked out of the air with no clinical evidence that shows a benefit at an enormous cost to be borne by, well somebody else of course. It is childish nonsense. We seriously need a real opposition in this country not ridiculous gestures.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited December 2016

    SeanT,

    Actually, if you did not want the UK to become majority Muslim then Brexit is probably the last thing you would support. Why do I say this? Well the migrants from Poland and other Eastern European countries don't tend to be Muslim. So they would have ensured that Muslims from the rest of the world were kept at bay.

    If you stopped ranting at everybody who happens to voice their concern about the coming economic dislocation that Brexit will no doubt hit us with, you might realise that Brexit WILL diminish the UK in terms of political and economic power. You might also realise that Muslim migrants are more likely to come now, than they would have been if we stayed in the EU. All these Brexit politicians like Fox, Johnson and Davis want immigration, who will this be well it will be the people a fascist does not like i.e, muslims.

    To be honest I would rather not have any migrants at all, however I accept for demographic reasons it is a necessity. The political decisions to increase pensioner benefits enhance the coming difficult decisions as everybody expects a state pension at retirement age and that money has to come from an increasing working population.

    Did you miss the migrant crisis and Merkel's invite?
  • image
    SeanT said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I doubt Farage as PM would do anything to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. As I have shown here before, London will probably be majority Muslim by 2050. The damage is done.

    Enoch Powell said if he felt the problem could not be stopped, then he would do his utmost to limit the damage. In the late 60s, he thought it was possible to prevent it coming to this, but Ted Heath prevented any action being taken. Now I think even Enoch would say we have to make the best of what we have got.

    Mixed marriage is our only hope I reckon.
    4.5% of the population is Muslim. We do not need Farage to stop us becoming a majority Muslim country. Get a grip man.
    But we have already seen how a Muslim minority of 5-10% can change the host society. What happens at 10-20%? 40%??

    Here's a challenge. Try answering the question. Do you have the guts?
    I would vote for Le Pen or Farage, of course
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    I thought I chose ballet. Or something.
  • SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    isam said:

    SeanT,

    Actually, if you did not want the UK to become majority Muslim then Brexit is probably the last thing you would support. Why do I say this? Well the migrants from Poland and other Eastern European countries don't tend to be Muslim. So they would have ensured that Muslims from the rest of the world were kept at bay.

    If you stopped ranting at everybody who happens to voice their concern about the coming economic dislocation that Brexit will no doubt hit us with, you might realise that Brexit WILL diminish the UK in terms of political and economic power. You might also realise that Muslim migrants are more likely to come now, than they would have been if we stayed in the EU. All these Brexit politicians like Fox, Johnson and Davis want immigration, who will this be well it will be the people a fascist does not like i.e, muslims.

    To be honest I would rather not have any migrants at all, however I accept for demographic reasons it is a necessity. The political decisions to increase pensioner benefits enhance the coming difficult decisions as everybody expects a state pension at retirement age and that money has to come from an increasing working population.

    Did you miss the migrant crisis and Merkel's invite?
    The invite stems from here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees - not from Merkel.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    edited December 2016
    @Keiran - making a target does not ensure that it will be met. It can also give people false hope e.g; the 4 hour waiting target for 95%at A&E. (Actually about 90% get to be treated within that time. Not a problem if your condition is not critical).
    Where I live I can easily make appointments by phone, or more conveniently for me, on the internet. Repeat prescriptions are quickly ordered on the internet too.
    Contrary to your claim, your petition is a political act.

    P.S-One reason for the pressure on GPs is that an increasing number of GPs are women, who tend to often go part time for family reasons.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I think you're displaying an unfortunate enthusiasm for having no alternative but to support fascism.
    And for all your imaginative epithets for those who refuse the choice, it's not particularly convincing.

    Who knows, in Sweden, given their fairly unique politics and demographics, there might be some small chance of those being the two alternatives, but your lack of faith in Britain's ability to navigate a less toxic path is every bit as pitiful as your scattergun insults.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited December 2016
    The GP target is only achievable with less and larger 24 hours surgeries and the end of having your own GP. You will have a Dr, but not your own one. Throw in larger surgeries, some recuperation beds to empty hospitals and basic A&E services to leave hospitals with critical care and surgery that can't be carried out locally.

    Might have to stop consultants doing private work too.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    @seant.....if you despise Muslim migrants so much I am amazed that you are such a fan of Brexit since our EU partners are 97.5% Christian.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)
    Well you're a very interesting example. A liberal British Muslim.

    Which would you vote for?

    Farage or Shariah?

    A 50%+ majority Muslim UK or Marine Le Pen?

    These horrible questions are not trivial, they are in essence the question which is roiling all of Europe, and Trump's America, right now. And we are all on one side or the other, or we are just pathetic and hiding under the duvet (e.g. 90% of pb.com)
    I'd vote for neither, I'd be expending all my energies on trying to ensure the UK isn't faced with an appalling choice.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    Your hypothetical choice assumes/implies too much. There are different ways of such a transition occurring.

    At one extreme there is outright invasion. At the other there is simple demographics. If the original inhabitants of a place simply give up on having children, but those who have immigrated carry on their line, then the transition from one tradition to another will happen.

    In their wisdom, our leaders have pursued courses of action that result in some of the population feeling invaded. That has caused us problems.

    But the traditions of a people who abort so many babies are probably doomed anyway in the long run. Of course each individual unwilling mother is entitled to choose, but there is a cumulative impact, just as with problematic immigration policies.

    You'll mark my answer FAIL of course, but never mind.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited December 2016
    Isam,

    I seem to remember the Sun having that picture of the dead child on its front page condemning Europe for not helping the migrants in the seas off southern Europe. Those migrants are not European, the UK is not part of Schengen and it is likely many of them will return to the middle east. Even if they do not once they are settled in Germany I don't see them coming to the UK. The point being the Sun advocates allsorts of conflicting advice to its readers.

    If I was merkel I would not have let the migrants into Germany but she is democratically elected and makes decisions for the Germans. I don't think you should conflate the Eastern European immigration from Poland et al and the middle east migration to try and advocate a far right administration. As I have said the Syrians for instance would not have any rights to come to the UK anyway. I don't see it as a problem.

    In reply to SeanT's test I would never vote for a far right politician as it unleashes forces that are not intended by the initial vote.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    I am not going to sign this, because I remember when Blair brought in a similar policy. In order to meet his targets GP practices simply didn't make appointments more than 48 hours ahead, and therefore sorting routine non-urgent appointments could literally take months because they weren't within 48 hours.

    A massive expansion of GP services might help, but where do the doctors come from? It takes years to train them and they have to be of a high academic standard to start with. Or we could import them from abroad, because of course immigration is so uncontroversial in this country they'll all be welcomed.

    The post/petition identifies a grievance, but does not offer any practical solution. Indeed, I can foresee the proposed solution making matters far worse (a la Blair or Obama). Come up with practical suggestions for reform and put forward a petition on that basis and I will sign it. Until then, be careful what you wish for.
  • SeanT's hypothetical is absurd. And the correct answer is that I would emigrate and leave the two factions to fight for control of a country that I would no longer consider one that I had any affinity with. I would look to move to somewhere that still placed some weight on liberal values, probably a long way away. On the hypothetical as posed, I understand that to mean that I would let Britain become majority Muslim under sharia law.

    By what mechanism in the hypothetical is Nigel Farage going to stop Britain becoming majority Muslim?
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)
    Well you're a very interesting example. A liberal British Muslim.

    Which would you vote for?

    Farage or Shariah?

    A 50%+ majority Muslim UK or Marine Le Pen?

    These horrible questions are not trivial, they are in essence the question which is roiling all of Europe, and Trump's America, right now. And we are all on one side or the other, or we are just pathetic and hiding under the duvet (e.g. 90% of pb.com)
    I'd vote for neither, I'd be expending all my energies on trying to ensure the UK isn't faced with an appalling choice.
    Yes, but, CHOOSE

    It's called hypothesis. And debate. It's how people educate each other. And I am hoping to be educated. Try and grow a pair. CHOOSE

    It really is sensational how pb-ers will twist in the wind, rather than answer a fairly simple question.
    I refuse to choose, it's like asking me which is my favourite STD, or which would you rather see explode outside your front door, a chemical weapon or an atomic bomb.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited December 2016

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)
    Well you're a very interesting example. A liberal British Muslim.

    Which would you vote for?

    Farage or Shariah?

    A 50%+ majority Muslim UK or Marine Le Pen?

    These horrible questions are not trivial, they are in essence the question which is roiling all of Europe, and Trump's America, right now. And we are all on one side or the other, or we are just pathetic and hiding under the duvet (e.g. 90% of pb.com)
    I'd vote for neither, I'd be expending all my energies on trying to ensure the UK isn't faced with an appalling choice.
    Yes, but, CHOOSE

    It's called hypothesis. And debate. It's how people educate each other. And I am hoping to be educated. Try and grow a pair. CHOOSE

    It really is sensational how pb-ers will twist in the wind, rather than answer a fairly simple question.
    I refuse to choose, it's like asking me which is my favourite STD, or which would you rather see explode outside your front door, a chemical weapon or an atomic bomb.
    Errm these are very simple hypotheticals,

    Gonnorhea, a chemical weapon & Farage.
  • SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)

    Would ConHome do? :lol:
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    Keiran...I've signed your petition....I only post one time every other year or so on Facebook and have a handful of friends so cannot help on that one I'm afraid.....

    Of course we need a massive uptick in GP's...we need named GP's too that know the patent history....everywhere else in Europe has it...
  • On tôpic, the demand for healthcare is almost limitless and the supply is under huge financial and structural pressure. The aim is a noble one but right now we must hope that the NHS doesn't buckle in the short term under the strains that it is facing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)

    Would ConHome do? :lol:
    He's only just let me back from there after my slight spelling snafu. :D
  • @SeanT

    Vote for Farage or Le Pen.

    I agree with Sunil!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    On Doctors, I can well understand why there are shortages in A&E (Hunt's reforms seemed to have a blind spot here even though the intention was good) but a GP shortage is an odd one to "spring up" to my mind...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    @AlastairMeeks The hypotheticals are absurd but very simple to answer I think !
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)
    Well you're a very interesting example. A liberal British Muslim.

    Which would you vote for?

    Farage or Shariah?

    A 50%+ majority Muslim UK or Marine Le Pen?

    These horrible questions are not trivial, they are in essence the question which is roiling all of Europe, and Trump's America, right now. And we are all on one side or the other, or we are just pathetic and hiding under the duvet (e.g. 90% of pb.com)
    Isn't this about asking whether you'd prefer Hitler or Stalin?

    As it happens, I'd probably choose Le Pen (Marine), but I believe this is (fortunately) what I'd describe as a false dichotomy.

    Were it Le Pen Senior, who denied the holocaust and frequently blamed France's problems on 'the shadowy world of international financiers'*, it would be a much harder call.

    * That might be code for something, but I'm not sure what.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    perdix said:

    @Keiran - making a target does not ensure that it will be met. It can also give people false hope e.g; the 4 hour waiting target for 95%at A&E. (Actually about 90% get to be treated within that time. Not a problem if your condition is not critical).
    Where I live I can easily make appointments by phone, or more conveniently for me, on the internet. Repeat prescriptions are quickly ordered on the internet too.
    Contrary to your claim, your petition is a political act.

    P.S-One reason for the pressure on GPs is that an increasing number of GPs are women, who tend to often go part time for family reasons.

    Anecdote re adverse impact of targets in A&E: my condition needed attention but was in no way life-threatening. I was reasonably comfortable, just waiting my turn. Then I became aware that I was the focus of attention again, only not the attention I needed. Great efforts were being made to find me a bed because I was about to breach the guidelines.

    I was taken up to a ward & allotted a bed (which I took care not to touch, in the hope that at least the staff would not be put to the trouble of stripping & re-making it after I'd been discharged) and continued to wait. I was seen, and given an appointment for surgery the following day, and sent home.

    The waiting rooms aren't very comfortable, it's true, but it would be better to improve comfort there rather than waste resources the way they were wasted over me, just because some artificial deadline was approaching.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    tyson said:

    @seant.....if you despise Muslim migrants so much I am amazed that you are such a fan of Brexit since our EU partners are 97.5% Christian.

    Well quite. As good a reason as any to vote "Remain", the European 'pool' is far more culturally similiar than the rest of the world tbh.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited December 2016
    Apols if already posted

    Scottish Labour's private polling leaked

    SNP 45%

    Con 25%

    Lab 15%

    http://tinyurl.com/ScottishTorySurge
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Apols if already posted

    Scottish Labour's private polling leaked

    SNP 45%

    Con 25%

    Lab 15%

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/polling-data-shows-labour-braced-for-electoral-wipeout-in-scottish-elections-2016-12

    You must not have heard the Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon. :p
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited December 2016
    RobD said:

    Apols if already posted

    Scottish Labour's private polling leaked

    SNP 45%

    Con 25%

    Lab 15%

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/polling-data-shows-labour-braced-for-electoral-wipeout-in-scottish-elections-2016-12

    You must not have heard the Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon. :p
    Check out my edit
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    So far one pb-er has answered the question directly. Sunil. And all power to him.

    The rest of you are too scared to even address a hypothetical question. It's quite incredible. And very revealing.

    Last time I discussed Muslims/Islam with you, you wanted to deport me to Madagascar.

    (Though you did graciously apologise the next day for going too far)
    Well you're a very interesting example. A liberal British Muslim.

    Which would you vote for?

    Farage or Shariah?

    A 50%+ majority Muslim UK or Marine Le Pen?

    These horrible questions are not trivial, they are in essence the question which is roiling all of Europe, and Trump's America, right now. And we are all on one side or the other, or we are just pathetic and hiding under the duvet (e.g. 90% of pb.com)
    I'd vote for neither, I'd be expending all my energies on trying to ensure the UK isn't faced with an appalling choice.
    Yes, but, CHOOSE

    It's called hypothesis. And debate. It's how people educate each other. And I am hoping to be educated. Try and grow a pair. CHOOSE

    It really is sensational how pb-ers will twist in the wind, rather than answer a fairly simple question.
    I refuse to choose, it's like asking me which is my favourite STD, or which would you rather see explode outside your front door, a chemical weapon or an atomic bomb.
    Yes, but you could theoretically choose between those things.

    Fascists over Islamists for me. At least the trains might run on time. Though I agree with many in saying the proposition is a silly one.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    TSE the prescription charge exempt list is a complete nonsense and always has been. Can't understand why no government will bit the bullet and get rid of it.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT's hypothetical is absurd. And the correct answer is that I would emigrate and leave the two factions to fight for control of a country that I would no longer consider one that I had any affinity with. I would look to move to somewhere that still placed some weight on liberal values, probably a long way away. On the hypothetical as posed, I understand that to mean that I would let Britain become majority Muslim under sharia law.

    By what mechanism in the hypothetical is Nigel Farage going to stop Britain becoming majority Muslim?

    So you'd emigrate to Orban's quasi-Fascist Hungary, where you'd be safe. Rather than, as a homosexual, be thrown off walls in your own country, England.

    People as confused as you are utterly beyond satire.
    I answered your stupid fascist chic hypothetical. Now answer my supplementary question. Would you will forced deportations? Mass sterilsations? Gas chambers? By what means is the march of Islam to be stopped by your alt right chums?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Apols if already posted

    Scottish Labour's private polling leaked

    SNP 45%

    Con 25%

    Lab 15%

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/polling-data-shows-labour-braced-for-electoral-wipeout-in-scottish-elections-2016-12

    You must not have heard the Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon. :p
    Check out my edit
    Superb, although that tiny URL is now forever used. What will you use if the Tories ever come first??

    In other news, look at that squadron of pigs out the window!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited December 2016
    People are arguing that it's a hypothetical question but in some parts of this world it's already very real and it becomes increasingly real nearer to home with migration, population change, terrorism and global conflict.

    Hopefully, it's a question we never have to answer in reality.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Don't know why we pander to Sean T's drunken rants.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    @Chris A

    I have a hypothetical question...how can we rid ourselves of pathological, narcissistic, numpties?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Is it any different to being asked if you prefer Assad or ISIS?
  • Hurrah.

    Steve Webb's become a Knight
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Chris_A said:

    Don't know why we pander to Sean T's drunken rants.

    If you find a question painful to answer, then you should embrace the challenge. If you can only defend your beliefs and values with a scream of "HERETIC!" then... well you are what you are.

    A personal comic point - in the past I have baited progressives with suggestions about immigration....

    When I suggest that if we need to import 6 figures of people each year, why not get them from South America (where my wife's family comes from).... well, in general I get a violently negative response. Why is that?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    chestnut said:

    Is it any different to being asked if you prefer Assad or ISIS?

    No, that's an easy question for anyone with a conscience and a brain cell.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    chestnut said:

    Is it any different to being asked if you prefer Assad or ISIS?

    Assad :p - Is that even supposed to be a hard choice ?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    Is it any different to being asked if you prefer Assad or ISIS?

    No, that's an easy question for anyone with a conscience and a brain cell.
    Which one is the ravishing beauty?
  • I'd take modern day Albania, Kosovo or Northern Cyprus over Mussolini's Italy every day of the week. However, I'd take a fascist state over a theocracy that automatically made my daughter a second class citizen. It's a shit choice though.
  • My GP's surgery now deploys a telephone triage system that seems to work remarkably well. You call the surgery and are invited to give a brief description of the issue to the receptionist (it's not mandatory to comply with the request to provide information about your health concern) and a doctor will call you back within 24 hours to discuss the problem. When the GP calls they either dispense advice, provide a prescription, or book a face to face appointment as required. This means that those needing to sit down with a GP get appointments far quicker.

    I've found it to be incredibly efficient (like Keiran I too have needed to see a GP several times this year after never before requiring their assistance) and means that I don't need to take time off work for most appointments as they take place remotely. I imagine it also avoids the spread of coughs and colds in the surgery waiting room from those who should be taking cold medicine and staying in bed!
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT's hypothetical is absurd. And the correct answer is that I would emigrate and leave the two factions to fight for control of a country that I would no longer consider one that I had any affinity with. I would look to move to somewhere that still placed some weight on liberal values, probably a long way away. On the hypothetical as posed, I understand that to mean that I would let Britain become majority Muslim under sharia law.

    By what mechanism in the hypothetical is Nigel Farage going to stop Britain becoming majority Muslim?

    So you'd emigrate to Orban's quasi-Fascist Hungary, where you'd be safe. Rather than, as a homosexual, be thrown off walls in your own country, England.

    People as confused as you are utterly beyond satire.
    I answered your stupid fascist chic hypothetical. Now answer my supplementary question. Would you will forced deportations? Mass sterilsations? Gas chambers? By what means is the march of Islam to be stopped by your alt right chums?
    I've already answered that a trillion times. I would make hardcore Islam impossible to practise in the UK. Limit or ban halal meat. Prohibit any kind of shariah law. Prosecute FGM wih extreme vigour. Ban cousin marriage. Deport all incendiary imams. Ban the burqa and niqab. Close down any foreign-funded mosques (and forbid foreign-funding). Place restrictions on minarets, praying at work, etc.

    This would, over time, I believe, make the UK an unwelcoming place to be a very conservative Muslim, in the most humane way possible. No one would be deported. They would just leave, and they would stop coming.

    One of my regrets from this turbulent year is how I have grown to despise you, intellectually and morally.
    You're ducking the question, coward. What if those measures don't work? At what point do you decide that an anti Muslim majority measure is too immoral to attempt?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    chestnut said:

    Is it any different to being asked if you prefer Assad or ISIS?

    Very - as that's, sadly, a real choice.

    Partly thanks to our foreign policy decisions.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    tyson said:

    Keiran...I've signed your petition....I only post one time every other year or so on Facebook and have a handful of friends so cannot help on that one I'm afraid.....

    Of course we need a massive uptick in GP's...we need named GP's too that know the patent history....everywhere else in Europe has it...

    @Tyson - don't you live in Italy? but you signed the petition?
    There are actually more GPs in place than ever. And in my area everyone has a named doctor (which can be changed by the patient).
    It seems that some practices in England need to copy the positive results of the GPs in my area.

  • I'd take modern day Albania, Kosovo or Northern Cyprus over Mussolini's Italy every day of the week. However, I'd take a fascist state over a theocracy that automatically made my daughter a second class citizen. It's a shit choice though.

    I think the only rational answer to Sean's question is that you fight both. No one forces us to acquiesce to anything and we always have the choice of fighting, by peaceful means at first but if that fails then by violent means. This is where Sean's hypothesis falls down. It presents two seemingly unavoidable and unacceptable options but in reality they can only come into existence if we surrender and let them.
  • Thanks to those signing. I think it is a really important issue that risks only being addressed once it is a genuine crisis where people are dying. The point is to get it on the agenda rather than ignore it. I am not wedded to 48 hours (I am not the leader of the opposition) but am convinced this issue is nowhere near where it should be on the agenda.

    As a side issue I am not sure what Sean T's angry Sophie's choice is trying to prove? I believe I would vote for a third party candidate!

    PS. PB poster of the year results coming tomorrow
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    I'd take modern day Albania, Kosovo or Northern Cyprus over Mussolini's Italy every day of the week. However, I'd take a fascist state over a theocracy that automatically made my daughter a second class citizen. It's a shit choice though.

    I think the only rational answer to Sean's question is that you fight both. No one forces us to acquiesce to anything and we always have the choice of fighting, by peaceful means at first but if that fails then by violent means. This is where Sean's hypothesis falls down. It presents two seemingly unavoidable and unacceptable options but in reality they can only come into existence if we surrender and let them.
    I think the following analogy works. There is an EU referendum:

    [ ] I would like the UK to be absorbed into an EU super-state
    [ ] I would like the UK to join the Euro and the European army
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    I'd take modern day Albania, Kosovo or Northern Cyprus over Mussolini's Italy every day of the week. However, I'd take a fascist state over a theocracy that automatically made my daughter a second class citizen. It's a shit choice though.

    I think the only rational answer to Sean's question is that you fight both. No one forces us to acquiesce to anything and we always have the choice of fighting, by peaceful means at first but if that fails then by violent means. This is where Sean's hypothesis falls down. It presents two seemingly unavoidable and unacceptable options but in reality they can only come into existence if we surrender and let them.
    That, and to ask him to please desist from his half-assed attempts to muck with the Overton window for today.

  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Farage or Shariah

    Farage/ Le Pen/ Wilders/ Trump/ or even Corbyn (but it is close the last one)

    Next question?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Regarding the petition. the first step in solving a problem is to define the problem.

    It's an oldie but goody - any system or process is perfectly designed to produce the results it does.

    If there is a problem in getting a doctor appointment, then the cause is somewhere in the way appointments are scheduled - for example are there too many frivolous appointments, are people wanting to see the doctor when in fact a physician assistant or a nurse could handle the issue, and so on.

    You need to identify the problem and then resolve it.

    Passing a petition like this will result in much complication, possibly major expense, and at the end of the day will not solve the underlying problem.

    The difficulty in getting doctor appointments may well be merely a symptom of other problems rather than the problem itself.

    A little intelligent analysis is always a good start.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited December 2016
    Didn't this idea get tried by the Labour govt a few years ago, with the result of a rugby scrum every morning to get an appointment and additional strain on A&E?

    Anything that looks at blunt targets like his isn't going to work. What's required is for some of the NHS 'managers' to look at what's working elsewhere, to allow flexibility e.g. to see a doctor at work rather than home, encourage people to see nurses, pharmacists etc etc.

    It's not going to be easy, especially when dealing with effectively unlimited demand because it's all "free". The whole healthcare system in the UK is close to breaking point and has been for years, and just throwing more money at the problem isn't working. Wholesale reforms are needed, which may be prove to be politically impossible. As a starting point, a reversal of the benefit-in-kind tax treatment of employer-provided private health insurance would be an easy win, would encourage those of working age out of the systems completely and have positive economic effects of reduced work sickness rates and private health sector activity.

    Another outside-the-box idea I've suggested here before is for the NHS to sponsor teaching hospitals in cities like Mumbai and Manila, where there are thousands of potential recruits and could bring Western teaching standards and qualifications that allow for easy transfer to work in the UK at various stages.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    SeanT said:

    I'm gonna repost this, because it really is the acid test for feebleness of intellect and cowardice of character. If you can't even bear to address this hypothetical but not impossible dilemma then you FAIL. Here it is.


    If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

    Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

    Muslim or Le Pen.

    Farage or Shariah

    Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

    What do other pb-ers think?

    I have gay, Jewish, and evangelical Christian friends and relatives[1]. So if we assume there isn't a Kobayashi Maru[2] option, nor abstention, and there are only two rather horrific options, then I would read each party's manifesto and vote for that party that gave them and me the greatest chance of survival.

    [1] As previously noted, it's a biiiiig family.
    [2] Sunil, you explain it to him: it's late.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    Is it any different to being asked if you prefer Assad or ISIS?

    No, that's an easy question for anyone with a conscience and a brain cell.
    Which one is the ravishing beauty?
    Neither - which would you like to be in charge if you had a one way ticket to Palmyra?

    Very easy for UK armchair warriors to claim 'they're both as bad as each other', but I think the above question crystalises things enough to make it obvious that such a claim is an absurdity. Assad is an autocrat. ISIS is a death cult.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The Saxton Oval in New Zealand looks utterly stunning, must say.
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