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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A look at the next US. Secretary of State market

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A look at the next US. Secretary of State market

The Betfair market makes Trump’s pick Rex Tillerson an overwhelming favourite at c. 90% to be confirmed by the US Senate.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    On topic, I wouldn't take the Politico story at face value. If nothing else it's not credible that Giuliani was ever top of the list.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Hard to imagine Tillerson being turned down, frankly. If anything he looks like one of Trump's more sensible appointments so far.

    George H. Bush was the one. In addition to the aforementioned loss of Tower as Secretary of Defense, he also famously put forward Peter Secchia as ambassador to Italy. When asked what he knew about Italy at his confirmation hearing. He replied: 'I saw the new Italian navy last week. Its boats have glass bottoms so they can see the old Italian navy.'

    To give you some idea of how rare it is for Presidential appointments to be vetoed - Secchia was approved.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited January 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    As with the Teheran operation, I think history will judge Obama's administration to have been very much 'an incomplete success' - certainly when it comes to foreign affairs, his record has been little short of disastrous. That's especially unimpressive given the enormous prestige, popularity and goodwill he had internationally after the Bush years.
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    From prev. thread, I know the Queen is 90 and so the odds now of her sending herself a message in ten years' time are better than one in 10,000. But probably not even evens.

    This man managed to get the wrong odds from the bookies
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6587309.stm
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    And here is a cheery New year message from a columnist who I think has not had a great year...

    @DAaronovitch: In 2016 the shit was thrown. In 2017 it hits the fan.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Er....Obama sanctions are not about Syria. It is much closer to home.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited January 2017
    Remembers comments about betting on things changing rather than staying the same.

    Assuming there's no massive skeletons hidden in Mr Tillerson's closet, that no-one found while he was CEO of one of the most high profile companies in the US, that 1/10 seems a great value bet against the majority Senate refusing to confirm the new president's star appointment. I'd make it about 1/50.

    Given he will be one of the first names put to the Senate, that's a 10% return in less than a month.

    It's possible that the Senate might throw out one of the more unsuitable and minor picks, just to remind the president that they're there, but not such a high profile and suitable candidate as Tillerson.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393
    Coming soon: Russia to blame for chlamidya, things coming without the batteries, badly behaved children, the collapse of MG-Rover, and toast landing jam side down.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393
    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    And by extension a humiliation for us, as we're flying along on US coat-tails. And we're now doubling down on Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, which won't be great news if there's a *real* Arab Spring.

    It was the US' own ham-fisted support for (initiation of?) the Turkey coup that sent Erdogan into the arms of Russia. Their own meddling has buggered them. It would take a heart of stone etc.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited January 2017
    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    The key moment was when Obama decided against action even after Assad crossed the "red line".

    Obama was of course influenced by Cameron's failure to carry UK support in the House of Commons thanks to one Ed Miliband!

    So Ed not only screwed up the Labour Party, he also helped bring about a collapse in Western Power in the Middle East. Useless.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    On topic:

    I've taken the other side of this bet to OGH.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,807
    @SeanT@MaxPB

    Even if the US was as powerful, relatively, as in 1960, there would be nothing that they could usefully do in Syria. Russia, Iran, and Turkey all have dogs in this fight. The US (and the West) haven't. Our only interest is to ensure that IS is crushed, and to minimise disruption to Southern Europe.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393

    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    The key moment was when Obama decided against action even after Assad crossed the "red line".

    Obama was of course influenced by Cameron's failure to carry UK support in the House of Commons thanks to one Ed Miliband!

    So Ed not only screwed up the Labour Party, he also helped bring about a collapse in Western Power in the Middle East. Useless.
    Given that you profess to be a big fan of 'logic' and 'facts', you could perhaps explain the virtue of us bombing the fuck out of Syria - how it would have resulted in a better outcome for anyone concerned. Backed up by case studies of similar interventions please, there are plenty to choose from.

    Whilst you're at it, you might also explain why 'Western Power in the Middle East', or indeed Russian Power, or anyone else not actually Middle Eastern is automatically a 'good thing'.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    It's reds under the bed!!!!1!

    Oh, it wasn't.

    Mikael Thalen
    Washington Post issues a retraction of all its original claims regarding 'power grid hack' https://t.co/35imGktn2r
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393
    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    And by extension a humiliation for us, as we're flying along on US coat-tails. And we're now doubling down on Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, which won't be great news if there's a *real* Arab Spring.

    It was the US' own ham-fisted support for (initiation of?) the Turkey coup that sent Erdogan into the arms of Russia. Their own meddling has buggered them. It would take a heart of stone etc.
    Let's hope there isn't a real Arab spring in Saudi, because - taking recent history as an example - the great likelihood is that the Saudi royal family would be replaced by Islamists. Sitting on the world's biggest oil reserves, and possessing one of the world's biggest militaries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
    That's not a spring, that's terrorist blowback. The protest movement in Saudi Arabia doesn't have anything to do with ISIS.
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    mosespbmosespb Posts: 2
    edited January 2017
    .....
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    SeanT said:

    That's an astonishing and epochal change. And underlies many of the geopolitical trends we see now, even though people don't quite realise.

    It also illustrates why our obsession with the EU is so much navel gazing. We should just accept that some form of European integration is inevitable and start playing our full part in making it work.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    @SeanT@MaxPB

    Even if the US was as powerful, relatively, as in 1960, there would be nothing that they could usefully do in Syria. Russia, Iran, and Turkey all have dogs in this fight. The US (and the West) haven't. Our only interest is to ensure that IS is crushed, and to minimise disruption to Southern Europe.

    The swiftness of America's decline, relative to other countries, is really quite something, and often goes unremarked.

    The stats don't lie, however.

    25 years ago America was 22.28% of the global economy, and China was 4.07%. America was, in other words, five times more powerful than China.

    At that time, America's nearest rival (with the Soviet Union breaking up in chaos) was Japan, but Japan was just 8.79% of global GDP. So America was three times bigger than her nearest competitor.

    Now America constitutes 16.14% of the global economy, and China - which was five times smaller a generation ago - is now slightly BIGGER than America, at 16.32%

    (yes yes yes, PPP)

    https://www.quandl.com/collections/economics/gdp-as-share-of-world-gdp-at-ppp-by-country

    That's an astonishing and epochal change. And underlies many of the geopolitical trends we see now, even though people don't quite realise.

    That's what happens when you outsource all* your industry, I guess.

    * Slight exaggeration.

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393

    SeanT said:

    That's an astonishing and epochal change. And underlies many of the geopolitical trends we see now, even though people don't quite realise.

    It also illustrates why our obsession with the EU is so much navel gazing. We should just accept that some form of European integration is inevitable and start playing our full part in making it work.
    Well, you'll be delighted we won't have to be obsessed with it anymore - as we won't be in it. And we can wish them well, and help them make it work as any good neighbour would.
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    mosespbmosespb Posts: 2
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    And by extension a humiliation for us, as we're flying along on US coat-tails. And we're now doubling down on Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, which won't be great news if there's a *real* Arab Spring.

    It was the US' own ham-fisted support for (initiation of?) the Turkey coup that sent Erdogan into the arms of Russia. Their own meddling has buggered them. It would take a heart of stone etc.
    Let's hope there isn't a real Arab spring in Saudi, because - taking recent history as an example - the great likelihood is that the Saudi royal family would be replaced by Islamists. Sitting on the world's biggest oil reserves, and possessing one of the world's biggest militaries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
    That's not a spring, that's terrorist blowback. The protest movement in Saudi Arabia doesn't have anything to do with ISIS.
    Sure. But as we have seen, these Arab Springs have a horrible tendency to turn into Islamist winter. And I see no reason why Saudi should be different, indeed, given their religiosity and history, quite the opposite.

    And now I really must work. For the rest of 2017. Later.
    I can't see it but if Saudi did turn that way it really would be a mess beyond belief. To be fair it most likely would be a female type revolution with the heads of family stunned as to what to do about wives and daughters.

    We will see, but the male strength is so strong there I just cannot envisage a situation where females even get the most basic of rights and become treated as humans.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    And by extension a humiliation for us, as we're flying along on US coat-tails. And we're now doubling down on Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, which won't be great news if there's a *real* Arab Spring.

    It was the US' own ham-fisted support for (initiation of?) the Turkey coup that sent Erdogan into the arms of Russia. Their own meddling has buggered them. It would take a heart of stone etc.
    Let's hope there isn't a real Arab spring in Saudi, because - taking recent history as an example - the great likelihood is that the Saudi royal family would be replaced by Islamists. Sitting on the world's biggest oil reserves, and possessing one of the world's biggest militaries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
    That's not a spring, that's terrorist blowback. The protest movement in Saudi Arabia doesn't have anything to do with ISIS.
    Within 5 minutes of letting the man in the street in Saudi decide the government, you'll have a very very hard core Islamist regime. The entire "standard" educational system has been owned by such views for decades.

    Most of the Saudis I know (non fundys) have an exit plan. Think Iran in 79....
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    SeanT said:

    That's an astonishing and epochal change. And underlies many of the geopolitical trends we see now, even though people don't quite realise.

    It also illustrates why our obsession with the EU is so much navel gazing. We should just accept that some form of European integration is inevitable and start playing our full part in making it work.
    Well, you'll be delighted we won't have to be obsessed with it anymore - as we won't be in it. And we can wish them well, and help them make it work as any good neighbour would.
    You're remarkably out of tune with the nation's psychology. If we're out of it, its success will wound the pride of those who wanted to leave and fuel the anger of those who were dragged out against their will. There's no way we can have a healthy relationship with a healthy EU from the outside.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    @SeanT@MaxPB

    Even if the US was as powerful, relatively, as in 1960, there would be nothing that they could usefully do in Syria. Russia, Iran, and Turkey all have dogs in this fight. The US (and the West) haven't. Our only interest is to ensure that IS is crushed, and to minimise disruption to Southern Europe.

    The swiftness of America's decline, relative to other countries, is really quite something, and often goes unremarked.

    The stats don't lie, however.

    25 years ago America was 22.28% of the global economy, and China was 4.07%. America was, in other words, five times more powerful than China.

    At that time, America's nearest rival (with the Soviet Union breaking up in chaos) was Japan, but Japan was just 8.79% of global GDP. So America was three times bigger than her nearest competitor.

    Now America constitutes 16.14% of the global economy, and China - which was five times smaller a generation ago - is now slightly BIGGER than America, at 16.32%

    (yes yes yes, PPP)

    https://www.quandl.com/collections/economics/gdp-as-share-of-world-gdp-at-ppp-by-country

    That's an astonishing and epochal change. And underlies many of the geopolitical trends we see now, even though people don't quite realise.

    That's what happens when you outsource all* your industry, I guess.

    * Slight exaggeration.

    Simple levelling of the world's economy, really. As other nations catch up on the First World, this is exactly what you expect to happen.

    The US is 4.5% (approx) of the world population.
    The UK is 0.88%

    The thing to be careful about is extrapolating trends - when I was young, it was a commonplace that Japan would be in charge of the world by now.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Sandpit said:

    Remembers comments about betting on things changing rather than staying the same.

    Assuming there's no massive skeletons hidden in Mr Tillerson's closet, that no-one found while he was CEO of one of the most high profile companies in the US, that 1/10 seems a great value bet against the majority Senate refusing to confirm the new president's star appointment. I'd make it about 1/50.

    Given he will be one of the first names put to the Senate, that's a 10% return in less than a month.

    It's possible that the Senate might throw out one of the more unsuitable and minor picks, just to remind the president that they're there, but not such a high profile and suitable candidate as Tillerson.

    You don't think the whole friend of Russia thing means people will see him as unsuitable? I'm not saying the guy isn't impressive... But there was bipartisan consensus on sanctions on Russia... Strange then to accept a friend of Putin?

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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    William Glenn - do tell what a "healthy" EU would look like - can I expect to see such a thing in the next 5 years?

    We really are better off out, rather than shackled to a rotting corpse.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Remembers comments about betting on things changing rather than staying the same.

    Assuming there's no massive skeletons hidden in Mr Tillerson's closet, that no-one found while he was CEO of one of the most high profile companies in the US, that 1/10 seems a great value bet against the majority Senate refusing to confirm the new president's star appointment. I'd make it about 1/50.

    Given he will be one of the first names put to the Senate, that's a 10% return in less than a month.

    It's possible that the Senate might throw out one of the more unsuitable and minor picks, just to remind the president that they're there, but not such a high profile and suitable candidate as Tillerson.

    You don't think the whole friend of Russia thing means people will see him as unsuitable? I'm not saying the guy isn't impressive... But there was bipartisan consensus on sanctions on Russia... Strange then to accept a friend of Putin?
    An oil exec with dealings with Putin knows where the bodies are buried in the Russian elite. There's really no better person you could think of to deal in a tough and realistic way with Russia.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    Floater said:

    William Glenn - do tell what a "healthy" EU would look like - can I expect to see such a thing in the next 5 years?

    We really are better off out, rather than shackled to a rotting corpse.

    To illustrate my point, Farage is now campaigning against Schengen, despite it being really none of the UK's business. People like him actively need the EU to fail to validate their world-view. The EU will not oblige them.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Interesting article, Mr. Rkrkrk. Might see if Ladbrokes have anything that appeals.
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    And by extension a humiliation for us, as we're flying along on US coat-tails. And we're now doubling down on Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, which won't be great news if there's a *real* Arab Spring.

    It was the US' own ham-fisted support for (initiation of?) the Turkey coup that sent Erdogan into the arms of Russia. Their own meddling has buggered them. It would take a heart of stone etc.
    Let's hope there isn't a real Arab spring in Saudi, because - taking recent history as an example - the great likelihood is that the Saudi royal family would be replaced by Islamists. Sitting on the world's biggest oil reserves, and possessing one of the world's biggest militaries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
    That's not a spring, that's terrorist blowback. The protest movement in Saudi Arabia doesn't have anything to do with ISIS.
    Sure. But as we have seen, these Arab Springs have a horrible tendency to turn into Islamist winter. And I see no reason why Saudi should be different, indeed, given their religiosity and history, quite the opposite.

    And now I really must work. For the rest of 2017. Later.
    Work happily. Drink moderately. But ignore the govt.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/12088101/Health-chiefs-attacked-over-nanny-state-alcohol-guide.html
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393

    SeanT said:

    That's an astonishing and epochal change. And underlies many of the geopolitical trends we see now, even though people don't quite realise.

    It also illustrates why our obsession with the EU is so much navel gazing. We should just accept that some form of European integration is inevitable and start playing our full part in making it work.
    Well, you'll be delighted we won't have to be obsessed with it anymore - as we won't be in it. And we can wish them well, and help them make it work as any good neighbour would.
    You're remarkably out of tune with the nation's psychology. If we're out of it, its success will wound the pride of those who wanted to leave and fuel the anger of those who were dragged out against their will. There's no way we can have a healthy relationship with a healthy EU from the outside.
    And you're remarkably out of tune with sanity. If the EU is successful, it will be a better market for the UK's visitor economy, and goods, assuming we ever make anything again. A few psychologically scarred remoaners are, I'm afraid an insignificance, as everyone else just gets on with it.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Voter, the CMO is an idiot. Giving equal alcohol guidance to men and women strongly implies that the genders can take drink equally. On average, that's plain wrong. It's probably politically correct (mmm, equality) but it'll be women more than men who suffer with alcohol poisoning and liver problems if they think they can keep up with men.

    [Yes, there are exceptions, but in general, women have lower tolerance].
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    Olivier Giroud has just scored the goal of 2017
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    leaveleave Posts: 3
    From a few threads ago, @alistairmeeks:

    "Until Leave come to terms with the way in which they won, this country is in for a grim time."

    There is no such person as "Leave".

    There were 17 million voters who voted leave, various campaigning groups such as Vote Leave, Grassroots Out, Leave.EU and the many smaller groups, there were politicians, people from industry and civil society who campaigned for leave, there were newspapers that endorsed leave, there were the leafleteers, canvassers, knockers, tellers, and there were millions of people who argued the case for leave in pubs, coffee shops, sitting rooms, work places and terraces up and down the land and of course also those who argued ad infinitum online including in this parish. But the idea that these people and institutions can, as some kind of collective, come to terms with anything seems fanciful.

    The nature of the EU is binary and the nature of a referendum campaign is necessarily divisive. But a divisive campaign and the binary nature of the EU masks the reality that there are not really two separate tribes of British people with different interests. There are, at the fringes and among political obsessives, a small amount of people who feel passionately about the EU and of course such people are hugely over-represented here. But the vast majority of the country aren't like that, they are somewhere in the (unsequeezed) middle on the question of EU membership, liking some bits of it and not others, voting reluctantly for one side or another because the pros outweighed the cons or viceversa.

    What do we mean by this country being in for a grim time? High unemployment and low growth? Terrorist attacks? Book lack in Ongar? 24 hours to save the NHS? Poor performances by our cricket, football and rugby teams and nul points in the Eurovision song contest? A cost of living crisis for the just about managing? New runways at Heathrow but strikes on Southern Rail? Theresa May being disrespected at various EU summits? These things will be grim whether or not "Leave" comes to term with the way in which they won - it is hard to think of a single thing that will become less grim if "Leave" somehow comes to terms with something.

    Perhaps "grim time" means that a few wealthy middle class people on the extreme edges of EUphilia are appalled that working class people refused, in the privacy of the ballot box, to do what they were told. That feeling must indeed be grim for "remain". But, from the perspective of "leave", that grimness, though not something that motivated leave or that leave even predicted, has been one of the many positive side effects of leave's victory and remain's defeat. To misquote Julie Burchill, "bathing in the tears of the vanquished" has been an added bonus. Perhaps this is a little bit childish - but if leave's failure to come to terms with anything makes remain continue to be in for a grim time, then I think leave can and will hold out a little bit longer.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr 1983,

    "Coming soon: Russia to blame for chlamidya, things coming without the batteries, badly behaved children, the collapse of MG-Rover, and toast landing jam side down."

    Surely that's Brexit?
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited January 2017

    SeanT said:

    That's an astonishing and epochal change. And underlies many of the geopolitical trends we see now, even though people don't quite realise.

    It also illustrates why our obsession with the EU is so much navel gazing. We should just accept that some form of European integration is inevitable and start playing our full part in making it work.
    Well, you'll be delighted we won't have to be obsessed with it anymore - as we won't be in it. And we can wish them well, and help them make it work as any good neighbour would.
    You're remarkably out of tune with the nation's psychology. If we're out of it, its success will wound the pride of those who wanted to leave and fuel the anger of those who were dragged out against their will. There's no way we can have a healthy relationship with a healthy EU from the outside.
    For that it would need to be a success. While Liberals here talk about the EU being a scapegoat you have to remember our European "friends" have long sought to make out to their own populations that it is us and our veto that has prevented the EU being a success.

    I wonder what the excuse will be now?
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    CD13 said:

    Mr 1983,

    "Coming soon: Russia to blame for chlamidya, things coming without the batteries, badly behaved children, the collapse of MG-Rover, and toast landing jam side down."

    Surely that's Brexit?

    With allegations that Russia interfered in the referendum, we might soon be able to blame both Russia and Brexit for chlamidya, things coming without the batteries, badly behaved children, the collapse of MG-Rover, and toast landing jam side down.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393

    Floater said:

    William Glenn - do tell what a "healthy" EU would look like - can I expect to see such a thing in the next 5 years?

    We really are better off out, rather than shackled to a rotting corpse.

    To illustrate my point, Farage is now campaigning against Schengen, despite it being really none of the UK's business. People like him actively need the EU to fail to validate their world-view. The EU will not oblige them.
    Nigel Farage hates the instituations of the EU, and the institutions EU hate him - and there are years of acrimony, mockery and vituperation on both sides. To suggest that he is representative of 'the country' not being able to handle the EU returning to growth is Grade A horse manure, and you know it.

    You've become the new Richard Nabavi, but with the EU not Cameron. That poster has gained some perspective now Cameron and the 'near perfect Chancellor' have departed.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Eagles, it's true. I didn't want to say anything at the time, but in the polling booth, the pencil I used had "Made in Vladivostok" written on the side.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Mr. Eagles, it's true. I didn't want to say anything at the time, but in the polling booth, the pencil I used had "Made in Vladivostok" written on the side.


    Mine said "From Russia With Love".

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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Eagles, it's true. I didn't want to say anything at the time, but in the polling booth, the pencil I used had "Made in Vladivostok" written on the side.

    Mine had the coded voting message HB2 too.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Mr. Voter, the CMO is an idiot. Giving equal alcohol guidance to men and women strongly implies that the genders can take drink equally. On average, that's plain wrong. It's probably politically correct (mmm, equality) but it'll be women more than men who suffer with alcohol poisoning and liver problems if they think they can keep up with men.

    [Yes, there are exceptions, but in general, women have lower tolerance].

    Yes I agree. The guidelines seem to aim to encourage binge drinkers to consume less by way of encouraging modest drinkers - the least at risk, if they're taking 2-3 units/day - to take even less.

    The stats. also seem to suggest the rich consume more alcohol than the poor but suffer less illness as a result of it. Maybe that's how Churchill lived to 90, by being rich and eating a luxurious diet washed down with brandy, champagne and other booze.
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    Mr. Eagles, it's true. I didn't want to say anything at the time, but in the polling booth, the pencil I used had "Made in Vladivostok" written on the side.

    There was a reason why the Russians invited Mike to their Embassy, Mike went for the honeytrap, and they just wanted to talk about the referendum.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393
    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    'Leave'

    "Perhaps this is a little bit childish - but if leave's failure to come to terms with anything makes remain continue to be in for a grim time, then I think leave can and will hold out a little bit longer."

    More than a little bit childish! ......and so many words to say nothing.

    Clearly you're not new to the site so why not reveal yourself.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393
    CD13 said:

    Mr 1983,

    "Coming soon: Russia to blame for chlamidya, things coming without the batteries, badly behaved children, the collapse of MG-Rover, and toast landing jam side down."

    Surely that's Brexit?

    Yes, but the Russians were behind that. I believe they did it by infusing Nigel Farage with irrestible electoral pheremones that hypnotised the unwilling masses into the polling booths.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Eagles, reminds me of the latter half of The Adventures of Sir Edric, in which the eponymous anti-hero has to tangle with the vicious Strokov sisters.
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    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040
    Happy New Year my fellow PB Tories!
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393
    @Morris_Dancer - I liked both the covers for Kingdom Asunder - Welsh Dragon slightly more I think.

    Though I must be honest (and I realise this is annoying and far too late even if you agreed with me), I'm not mad keen on the title.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Interesting article, Mr. Rkrkrk. Might see if Ladbrokes have anything that appeals.

    Thanks. Finished Kingdom Asunder which became increasingly addictive as I went on- looking forward buying the sequel.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Remembers comments about betting on things changing rather than staying the same.

    Assuming there's no massive skeletons hidden in Mr Tillerson's closet, that no-one found while he was CEO of one of the most high profile companies in the US, that 1/10 seems a great value bet against the majority Senate refusing to confirm the new president's star appointment. I'd make it about 1/50.

    Given he will be one of the first names put to the Senate, that's a 10% return in less than a month.

    It's possible that the Senate might throw out one of the more unsuitable and minor picks, just to remind the president that they're there, but not such a high profile and suitable candidate as Tillerson.

    You don't think the whole friend of Russia thing means people will see him as unsuitable? I'm not saying the guy isn't impressive... But there was bipartisan consensus on sanctions on Russia... Strange then to accept a friend of Putin?
    An oil exec with dealings with Putin knows where the bodies are buried in the Russian elite. There's really no better person you could think of to deal in a tough and realistic way with Russia.
    Yes, that was my thinking with regard to Tillerson and Russia.

    He has done business all over the world, something that isn't possible without some very high-level diplomatic skills, and a clear understanding of realpolitik in order to get stuff done. IMHO he's an inspired choice for SoS.
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    @TSE

    Mike is a Russian agent, real name Mikhail Smithsonovski :lol:

    BTW Happy New Year everyone!
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Luckyguy1983 Farage and UKIP do hate the EU but they will need the income stream coming from MEPs especially if Carswell reverts to a Conservative MP..I suppose they will have extra funding in place for 2019.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. rkrkrk, thanks, I'm glad you liked it :D

    Do feel free to mention/recommend/emotionally blackmail your friends into buying it ;)

    Also, do check out Bane of Souls/Journey to Altmortis (same world but different characters), and I should have a fantasy short story included in an anthology later this month.

    Mr. 1983, technically, it's an English dragon. The English dragon was white, the Welsh was and is red. Titles are always a bugger. It's why so many fantasy stories have the title The Something Of Somethings. Rogue, Assassin, Dark, Chronicles, Dragons, Tales, Legend etc are all pretty common too.

    What do you think of Traitor's Prize? [Sequel title].
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited January 2017
    WG Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capitas than the EU average and a perfectly amicable relationship with it
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama is getting a lot of stick at the moment for his aggressive stance on Russia just after the Russians seem to have brokered a peace deal in Syria.

    Obama is probably afraid that something is going to happen, or not happen, in the next 19 days which is going to be for his legacy what Tehran was for Carter's.
    Well the fact that the USA has been completely frozen out of the peace talks in Syria is an absolute humiliation for the west. Obama has been a complete and utter disaster for US foreign policy, probably worse than Dubya.
    And by extension a humiliation for us, as we're flying along on US coat-tails. And we're now doubling down on Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, which won't be great news if there's a *real* Arab Spring.

    It was the US' own ham-fisted support for (initiation of?) the Turkey coup that sent Erdogan into the arms of Russia. Their own meddling has buggered them. It would take a heart of stone etc.
    Let's hope there isn't a real Arab spring in Saudi, because - taking recent history as an example - the great likelihood is that the Saudi royal family would be replaced by Islamists. Sitting on the world's biggest oil reserves, and possessing one of the world's biggest militaries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
    That's not a spring, that's terrorist blowback. The protest movement in Saudi Arabia doesn't have anything to do with ISIS.
    Within 5 minutes of letting the man in the street in Saudi decide the government, you'll have a very very hard core Islamist regime. The entire "standard" educational system has been owned by such views for decades.

    Most of the Saudis I know (non fundys) have an exit plan. Think Iran in 79....
    It's not just for investment reasons that rich Saudis buy property in London and New York...
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited January 2017
    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    Oh good but surely the original story was that the Russian malware was found on a laptop belonging to the power company and not the grid itself. And if you look at that tweet carefully, the US authorities seem to be confirming the grid itself was not hacked by anyone, which was where we came in.

    Edit: and "when no one is watching" -- well, today is New Year's Day, so that's no good, and tomorrow is also a holiday in America. So when should the news have been released? Shrove Tuesday?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    @TSE

    Mike is a Russian agent, real name Mikhail Smithsonovski :lol:

    BTW Happy New Year everyone!

    с новым годом мой друг!
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    CD13 said:

    Mr 1983,

    "Coming soon: Russia to blame for chlamidya, things coming without the batteries, badly behaved children, the collapse of MG-Rover, and toast landing jam side down."

    Surely that's Brexit?

    Yes, but the Russians were behind that. I believe they did it by infusing Nigel Farage with irrestible electoral pheremones that hypnotised the unwilling masses into the polling booths.
    The Russians would surely love the government to be hounded by a competent opposition, able to force U-turn after U-turn and generally causing a ruckus.

    Jeremy Corbyn is proof you can't always get what you want
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    Mr. rkrkrk, thanks, I'm glad you liked it :D

    Do feel free to mention/recommend/emotionally blackmail your friends into buying it ;)

    Also, do check out Bane of Souls/Journey to Altmortis (same world but different characters), and I should have a fantasy short story included in an anthology later this month.

    Mr. 1983, technically, it's an English dragon. The English dragon was white, the Welsh was and is red. Titles are always a bugger. It's why so many fantasy stories have the title The Something Of Somethings. Rogue, Assassin, Dark, Chronicles, Dragons, Tales, Legend etc are all pretty common too.

    What do you think of Traitor's Prize? [Sequel title].

    Do your works sell much abroad, or can't you tell with e-books?

    I'm intrigued by the difference in national tastes in book titles. At one time, I read pretty much every detective story by Patricia Wentworth (standard early - mid 20th century whodunnits) and I discovered that the US titles were (to my ears) positively banal compared to the (to my ears) more enticing English titles.

    English title Spotlight became the US Wicked Uncle; The Traveller Returns became She Came Back.

    Presumably with e-books you can't cater to national tastes in the same way.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Miss JGP, well, bearing in mind sales have been far lower than I'd like, it's mostly the UK and US. Weirdly, sold a couple of Kingdom Asunder copies in Germany. Bane of Souls (earlier book) sold a couple of copies in Germany as well. Not sure why.

    I believe it's possible to release books separately (ie make a UK, US edition and so on) but the expense of multiple covers and faffing with titles means people tend not to do it, certainly when self-publishing. Large-selling traditional books do still get varying artwork and sometimes titles.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    SeanT said:

    I tend to agree, but Obama was also unlucky. He took office just as relative American decline really kicked in.

    All we are seeing stems from that.

    America's GDP as a percentage of the world economy (the simplest measure of power) has been dwindling for decades, but it was masked by the fall of communism, the absence of proper rivals, huge American soft power, the skillful use of alliances, overwhelming military strength, and so on and so forth.

    The ascent of China in the Noughties, and the disaster of Iraq with all its sequelae, finally revealed America as a gravely weakened hegemon.

    So Obama was given a bad hand to play, and he played it badly.

    On the other hand, if you ignore the surge in debt, he's been quite a good president in terms of economics.

    The problem is he promised so much. And delivered very little. Race relations actually got WORSE.

    Obama has played a middling hand terribly. His delusional idea that the middle east would somehow find its way to liberal secular democracy after the Arab Spring was completely smashed in the first country to hold an election after the deposition of a dictator. We encouraged young Egyptians to topple secular and friendly-to-minorities Mubarak and then the oldies all voted for Morsi, a hard-line Islamist who started a feud with the Coptic Christians in Egypt. Obama supported this disgusting man on the basis that he was elected against secularish al-Sisi on the basis that he would be a like-for-like replacement of Mubarak.

    The main problem with Obama is that it seems like he really does believe that Islam is a "religion of peace" and that there are only a few malcontents who are giving it a bad name. Look at the tough time Dave had when he tried to force the White House into conceding the word Islamic being used in a UN resolution against global terrorism. Not only is Obama's position completely delusional, it is utterly smashed by evidence. Wherever there is a Muslim majority in a nation, the minorities are hounded and persecuted and are forced to submit to Islamic law. Where they are a large minority they create sectarian tension with the majority by asking for special rules and treatment and to be subject to Islamic law rather than the law of the land.

    In not facing up to this simple truth, that Islam is not ever going to reform into a moderate and peaceful religion which can live alongside others, Obama lost in Egypt, Syria, Yemmen and soon Turkey. We should have cut Saudi Arabia loose along with Iran and other hardline countries.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847
    Scott_P said:
    The key is the centre left has yet to find an economic policy response to the events of 2008. The events of that year destroyed the reputation of centre left parties for sound economic management.

    Even if Corbyn were not a big enough problem for Labour, the lack of economic policy coherence would be.

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited January 2017

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's it's resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    edited January 2017
    FPT

    Bendy buses in London were very popular with fare dodgers who used to get on at the back.

    They were also good at culling a particular kind of cyclist.
    It takes a particularly sick mind to delight in the death of someone simply because they happen to be using a particular mode of transport.

    Let's see how that sentence sounds with some protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010.

    "They were also good at culling a particular kind of child"

    "They were also good at culling a particular kind of lesbian"

    "They were also good at culling a particular kind of Jew"
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Obama was elected to be a pacifist president after the George W years which he largely was apart from taking out Bin Laden. Trump will be a more aggressive president and prepared to back dictators if necessary if they advance U.S. interests
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,940
    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    This also highlights a major difference between respectable outlets and the shysters: when mistakes are made, the respectable outlets are much more likely to openly admit it. Not every time, and perhaps not prominently enough, but they generally do.

    The fake news sites generally do not.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    It's actually amazing to see in real time America fall into some new era of McCarthyism because some idiot at the DNC downloaded a hacktool from an email.

    The craziest part is that Trump seems to have identified the military "big bad" better than Obama (Islamic terror) and the economic "big bad" better than Obama as well (China). Russia figures a bit here and there but overall it's not going to be Russians that attack America, or Russians that undercut American jobs.
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    leaveleave Posts: 3
    @Roger

    "Clearly you're not new to the site so why not reveal yourself. "

    I read this site and the comments regularly. I am new to posting here.

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    This also highlights a major difference between respectable outlets and the shysters: when mistakes are made, the respectable outlets are much more likely to openly admit it. Not every time, and perhaps not prominently enough, but they generally do.

    The fake news sites generally do not.
    That much is true, but if the MSM are to regain any credibility they need to re-employ the sub-editors and researchers that have clearly disappeared in recent years. And post apologies and retractions in the same 96 point print on the front page, so that they receive the same coverage as the original story.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Leave, welcome to pb.com.

    I wonder if we'll get a Mr. Remain as well.

    Of course, neither will ever match the heights of eloquence and insight achieved by ColinW's Mum or Ave It, but new blood's always welcome [which sounds a shade vampiric...].
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    HYUFD. True Obama was elected to be a pacifist president.Pull troups out of Afghanistan Iraq Europe shut Guantanamo Bay can not say it was a total success.The economy in the US is a better legacy.May has been annointed to leave the EU the success or failure will be her legacy.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Obama did pull troops out of Iraq or Afghanistan. It was the British people who voted to Leave, Brexit's future is down to them not May who backed Remain
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2017
    The Turks are saying the guy who shot up the nightclub last night is a migrant originally from East Turkestan, Afghanistan or Chechnya and an ISIS supporter.

    Have to say in terms of countries that sounds a bit like "we don't have a f##king clue just he ain't turkish, Kurdish or Syrian".
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    It's actually amazing to see in real time America fall into some new era of McCarthyism because some idiot at the DNC downloaded a hacktool from an email.

    The craziest part is that Trump seems to have identified the military "big bad" better than Obama (Islamic terror) and the economic "big bad" better than Obama as well (China). Russia figures a bit here and there but overall it's not going to be Russians that attack America, or Russians that undercut American jobs.
    Do the people who blame the DNC for the hacking take the same view of people burgled via open windows, tourists robbed for having their cameras on view or girls harrassed for wearing revealing clothes?

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    It's actually amazing to see in real time America fall into some new era of McCarthyism because some idiot at the DNC downloaded a hacktool from an email.

    The craziest part is that Trump seems to have identified the military "big bad" better than Obama (Islamic terror) and the economic "big bad" better than Obama as well (China). Russia figures a bit here and there but overall it's not going to be Russians that attack America, or Russians that undercut American jobs.
    Do the people who blame the DNC for the hacking take the same view of people burgled via open windows, tourists robbed for having their cameras on view or girls harrassed for wearing revealing clothes?

    I have no idea how they think...

    As an IT professional, the idea that you can blame Russia for the hack because of the use of Russian hack tool is a bit like saying that since the guy who robbed the corner store was waving a Makarov, it must have been the Russian army.

    By its very nature that hack tool is freely available on the web - it is emailed to it's victims after all.....
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    @FrancisUrquhart

    Known locally as Dave?
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    Oh good but surely the original story was that the Russian malware was found on a laptop belonging to the power company and not the grid itself. And if you look at that tweet carefully, the US authorities seem to be confirming the grid itself was not hacked by anyone, which was where we came in.

    Edit: and "when no one is watching" -- well, today is New Year's Day, so that's no good, and tomorrow is also a holiday in America. So when should the news have been released? Shrove Tuesday?
    The fact that some malware is found on any particular laptop isn't all that meaningful. What really matters is not the presence of malware, but the target and purpose of the malware.

    Stuxnet was the suite of malware developed to attack the Iranian nuclear enrichment programme. It is one of the most sophisticated cyber attacks ever seen, maybe even the most sophisticated. Despite having a very, very particular target — a specific model of Seimens PLC attached to specific Windows computers running particular applications on both the Windows PC and PLC — it spread very widely. How widely? Over 100,000 hosts, at 40,000 unique external IP addresses, in 155 different countries. Only a tiny number of the infected PCs were actually a target.

    Merely finding malware doesn't tell you a lot.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited January 2017

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    It's actually amazing to see in real time America fall into some new era of McCarthyism because some idiot at the DNC downloaded a hacktool from an email.

    The craziest part is that Trump seems to have identified the military "big bad" better than Obama (Islamic terror) and the economic "big bad" better than Obama as well (China). Russia figures a bit here and there but overall it's not going to be Russians that attack America, or Russians that undercut American jobs.
    Do the people who blame the DNC for the hacking take the same view of people burgled via open windows, tourists robbed for having their cameras on view or girls harrassed for wearing revealing clothes?

    I have no idea how they think...

    As an IT professional, the idea that you can blame Russia for the hack because of the use of Russian hack tool is a bit like saying that since the guy who robbed the corner store was waving a Makarov, it must have been the Russian army.

    By its very nature that hack tool is freely available on the web - it is emailed to it's victims after all.....
    Yes, very true. Greenwald made a similar point in the article linked upthread, that the media making Russian connections to so much don't understand what's actually going on - his example (for an American audience) is blaming the Russians for a killing just because an AK47 was found at the crime scene.

    The less said about the DNC, Clinton and their approach to IT, the better. It's all been said already.

    For most of us who work in or have a keen interest in something technical or complicated (for me IT/technology and aviation, respectively) we know that most of what's written in the media - about our own subject - is rubbish. Makes us think of all the other stuff of which we don't know so much, and about which we rely on the same media to educate us.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    William Glenn - I saw your response.

    But, that isn't an answer to the question is it.

    Lets try again as you are such a fan of all things EU - what does a healthy EU look like and how long before they get there?

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    Good luck to those who trust Russia.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    Good luck to those who trust Russia.

    The Russian government is essentially a mafia clan operating at a national scale, they are a threat to all nations. But that doesn't mean that every shadow we see is Putin sneaking up on us.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2017
    Some upstart young reserve QB called Tony Romo just passed for a touchdown*....

    * gag for the (possibly one) Dallas Cowboy fans on here.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Good luck to those who trust Russia.

    Who said anything about trust? Why not just "nothing" them?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    Some upstart young reserve QB called Tony Romo just passed for a touchdown*....

    * gag for the (possibly one) Dallas Cowboy fans on here.

    There's no Cowboys fans on here. The one you are thinking about is quite insistent that he isn't. ;)
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,922
    edited January 2017
    @glw - Russia is accused of something - mass doping of athletes, seeking to rig foreign elections, poisoning foreign politicians and its own dissidents, arming groups that shoot civilian aeroplanes out of the sky - Russia denies it. Then we all find out it's true. Putin is a Russian nationalist who will do whatever it takes to further what he sees as Russia's interests. Clearly, having regimes sympathetic to Russia in place in key jurisdictions would be a part of that.

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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    @glw - Russia is accused of something - mass doping of athletes, seeking to rig foreign elections, poisoning foreign politicians and its own dissidents, arming groups that shoot civilian aeroplanes out of the sky - Russia denies it. Then we all find out it's true. Putin is a Russian nationalist who will do whatever it takes to further what he sees as Russia's interests. Clearly, having regimes sympathetic to Russia in place in key jurisdictions would be a part of that.

    Sure Putin is a terrible person, but he was a terrible person 10 years ago. Obama's reset was delusional, but now in his final days Obama is letting us know what has been clear all along – the Russian government are crooks.

    I'd have more sympathy for the US governments recent actions if they looked genuinely principled and not the partisan fallout of a particularly bitter electoral defeat.
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    @glw - GOP leaders in the house & Senate have welcomed what Obama has done. Their only criticism is that he should have gone further sooner. John MCain is organising a Senate hearing on Russian hacking activity for later this week. Trump is increasingly isolated on this.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    It's actually amazing to see in real time America fall into some new era of McCarthyism because some idiot at the DNC downloaded a hacktool from an email.

    The craziest part is that Trump seems to have identified the military "big bad" better than Obama (Islamic terror) and the economic "big bad" better than Obama as well (China). Russia figures a bit here and there but overall it's not going to be Russians that attack America, or Russians that undercut American jobs.
    Do the people who blame the DNC for the hacking take the same view of people burgled via open windows, tourists robbed for having their cameras on view or girls harrassed for wearing revealing clothes?

    Speaking for myself Dr, I think people who leave windows open and unattended on ground floors are indeed taking a very unwise risk and it is hard to be as sympathetic as perhaps I should be when they get burgled. Most burglaries are opportunistic - an open door here, an unlocked car there, a handbag unattended anywhere. A little forethought can go a long way towards preventing such incidents.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    @glw - GOP leaders in the house & Senate have welcomed what Obama has done. Their only criticism is that he should have gone further sooner. John MCain is organising a Senate hearing on Russian hacking activity for later this week. Trump is increasingly isolated on this.

    You really have to wonder why it wasn't done sooner (as in before the election!). Weren't the democrats saying basically the election couldn't be rigged when Trump was threatening not to accept the result.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    MaxPB said:

    Good luck to those who trust Russia.

    Who said anything about trust? Why not just "nothing" them?
    MaxPB said:

    Good luck to those who trust Russia.

    Who said anything about trust? Why not just "nothing" them?
    Wonder whether this is a generational thing. Most friends of my generation worry far more about the Middle East than Russia. In my parents' generation it seems to be the opposite.

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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited January 2017
    RobD said:

    @glw - GOP leaders in the house & Senate have welcomed what Obama has done. Their only criticism is that he should have gone further sooner. John MCain is organising a Senate hearing on Russian hacking activity for later this week. Trump is increasingly isolated on this.

    You really have to wonder why it wasn't done sooner (as in before the election!). Weren't the democrats saying basically the election couldn't be rigged when Trump was threatening not to accept the result.
    That will be the Democrats who didn't care about Clinton's email server, and dismissed the DNC email leaks as tittle tattle. They sure as hell have changed their tune.


    I should probably write some boilerplate rant about the stupidity of politicians complaining about foreign hacking whilst simultaneously wanting their own security services to be able to break into everything.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    @glw - GOP leaders in the house & Senate have welcomed what Obama has done. Their only criticism is that he should have gone further sooner. John MCain is organising a Senate hearing on Russian hacking activity for later this week. Trump is increasingly isolated on this.

    Trump is pushing for a major shift in bipartisan policy so naturally this will face resistance. Far from being 'increasingly isolated', his starting position of almost complete isolation is gaining more and more adherents. Just look at polling among Republicans about Putin.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    glw said:

    RobD said:

    @glw - GOP leaders in the house & Senate have welcomed what Obama has done. Their only criticism is that he should have gone further sooner. John MCain is organising a Senate hearing on Russian hacking activity for later this week. Trump is increasingly isolated on this.

    You really have to wonder why it wasn't done sooner (as in before the election!). Weren't the democrats saying basically the election couldn't be rigged when Trump was threatening not to accept the result.
    That will be the Democrats who didn't care about Clinton's email server, and dismissed the DNC email leaks as tittle tattle. They sure as hell have changed their tune.

    I should probably write some boilerplate rant about the stupidity of politicians complaining about foreign hacking whilst simultaneously wanting their own security services to be able to break into everything.
    :smiley:
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Richard Grenell
    on New Years Eve, when no one is watching, the US govt confirms that the Russians didn't hack the power grid. https://t.co/FKanHisbrL

    #Fakenews
    As was mentioned by Ms @PlatoSaid yesterday, a big problem with all the discussion about "Fake News" is that's its resulting in the "Real News" being exposed as just as inaccurate.

    Glen Greenwald's take on this story: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/
    It's actually amazing to see in real time America fall into some new era of McCarthyism because some idiot at the DNC downloaded a hacktool from an email.

    The craziest part is that Trump seems to have identified the military "big bad" better than Obama (Islamic terror) and the economic "big bad" better than Obama as well (China). Russia figures a bit here and there but overall it's not going to be Russians that attack America, or Russians that undercut American jobs.
    Do the people who blame the DNC for the hacking take the same view of people burgled via open windows, tourists robbed for having their cameras on view or girls harrassed for wearing revealing clothes?

    Speaking for myself Dr, I think people who leave windows open and unattended on ground floors are indeed taking a very unwise risk and it is hard to be as sympathetic as perhaps I should be when they get burgled. Most burglaries are opportunistic - an open door here, an unlocked car there, a handbag unattended anywhere. A little forethought can go a long way towards preventing such incidents.
    Sure, people should take appropriate care, but we should still blame thief rather than the victim.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    S.O

    "Good luck to those who trust Russia."

    I certainly trust Putin more than Trump and believe he is a much safer pair of hands on the world 's tiller. Don't you?
This discussion has been closed.