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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » UKIP has suffered most in real elections in LEAVE areas since

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » UKIP has suffered most in real elections in LEAVE areas since BREXIT – the pro-EU LDs the best

A few months ago Harry Hayfield, PB’s local election specialist, introduced a new element in his regular monitoring of local by-election: dividing them up into whether the local authority areas voted REMAIN or LEAVE on June 23rd. This enables us to compare the two areas.

Read the full story here


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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    First like Trump.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Second, like Tories in Copeland
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    When it says leave/remain areas - at what level is that at? If it's district level then there's probably a fair amount of variance within those so the wards in question might have voted the other way. So I wouldn't read too much into it.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,894
    "I was quite surprised by the vote share changes that have the most pro-EU party doing far better in places that voted for BREXIT than those that didn’t"

    It isn't really surprising it it? SNP did better once they lost the referendum too.

    I think UKIP will only really play a part again if the establishment find smart arse ways of trying to stall or prevent our leaving.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited January 2017
    Also interesting that the Tories have made a net gain in Remain areas but a net loss in Leave areas (albeit fractional). However given how low the LDs are likely to have been in Leave areas previously (a majority of the 8 LD held seats voted Remain) really the only way was up
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    tlg86 said:

    When it says leave/remain areas - at what level is that at? If it's district level then there's probably a fair amount of variance within those so the wards in question might have voted the other way. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

    It may well be a motivating factor for Remainers to turn out or switch to the LDs, but why should that be different for Leaverstan vs Remania? Both areas were like the rest of the country rarely split more than 60/40 each way.

    It may simply be that Remania is more urban, so left wingers are inclined to Labour, while Leaverstan is more rural, so lefties prefer a milder alternative to Labour. It may also reflect that LDs run a better ground game in the Shires.

    It does bode well for LD gains in May either way.



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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,839
    edited January 2017
    It's fair to say Alex Massie isn't much of a Corbyn fan, but this is quite brutal.
    https://capx.co/labour-is-ludicrous-but-its-no-laughing-matter/
    "So hapless in fact, he makes Iain Duncan Smith’s stewardship of the Conservative party seem a triumph of Bismarckian proportions. It’s one thing being wrong but quite another to be so inept. And a politician who cannot even appear to stand up for himself is a politician who invites contempt. A party can survive mere unpopularity but it will be sunk by ridicule."
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    isam said:

    "I was quite surprised by the vote share changes that have the most pro-EU party doing far better in places that voted for BREXIT than those that didn’t"

    It isn't really surprising it it? SNP did better once they lost the referendum too.

    I think UKIP will only really play a part again if the establishment find smart arse ways of trying to stall or prevent our leaving.

    Or if it is a fudge not hard Brexit
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    isam said:

    "I was quite surprised by the vote share changes that have the most pro-EU party doing far better in places that voted for BREXIT than those that didn’t"

    It isn't really surprising it it? SNP did better once they lost the referendum too.

    I think UKIP will only really play a part again if the establishment find smart arse ways of trying to stall or prevent our leaving.

    I agree once the betrayal happens as it will as seen by many leavers UKIP will be playing a big part again.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    The notion that Le Pen is fading may be something of an exaggeration. The French presidential polls are complex - an entire series of questions is asked using a range of possible candidates - and she appears as third in the first round in only this specific scenario. And even then she's only four points adrift of the first place contender. I believe that she still places second or joint second in all of the other scenarios polled.

    All of that said, based on my (very limited) knowledge of the French situation, I would still expect Fillon to win the run-off.

    Probably.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Mike has consistently been spinning for the liberal democrats ever since David Cameron left. Such partisan drivel.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    It appears that the Lib Dems *may* be ever so gradually picking themselves up off the floor, although if the Westminster VI polls are to be believed (and they were pretty good on the smaller parties at the last election) then the rate of any possible progress is glacial.

    That said, local elections traditionally suffer from low turnout, and the Lib Dems are determined campaigners operating from a badly depleted base. They did make a little progress last May; this May coming, they might do better again.

    We should also bear in mind that there's a world of difference between voting in an election to choose who organises library opening hours and bin collections, and an election to decide who forms a Government.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    The notion that Le Pen is fading may be something of an exaggeration. The French presidential polls are complex - an entire series of questions is asked using a range of possible candidates - and she appears as third in the first round in only this specific scenario. And even then she's only four points adrift of the first place contender. I believe that she still places second or joint second in all of the other scenarios polled.

    All of that said, based on my (very limited) knowledge of the French situation, I would still expect Fillon to win the run-off.

    Probably.
    If the PS don't pick Valls then it becomes very tight between Le Pen/Fillon/Macron. Any combination from that trio could make the run-off.

    image
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    Calling local by - elections "real elections" and trying to extrapolate anything from the outcomes is a bit desperate. Mark Senior territory.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    FPT: Mr. T, how many more burkha-wearing Labour voters will there be by then? With each passing year it becomes less likely.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited January 2017
    fpt

    For those, like me, just catching up with the newspapers today, this is excellent on Labour's position:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/06/jeremy-corbyn-symptom-labour-party

    Good, but there is a flaw. For all that 1997 is only or is fully 20 years ago, so 1977 is only 20 years before that. As, funnily enough, the first comment notes, what's the point of the Labour Party as being a slightly more leftwing Tory Party? What, in other words, changed between 21.59 and 20.01 on May 7th? Nothing in policy terms and hence the challengers only had a watered-down version of Dave and George's vision to offer.

    And hence we have Jezza.

    Of course it is politically unelectable as politics now occupies the centre ground, but I see why it's there.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Not that I want her to win, but how many times did Trump fade in the polls? And in France we are talking about more complex system of multi-round voting.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited January 2017
    Can't believe it, we get started on a non-Br*x*t whither Jezza discussion over on the last thread but then we are plunged back into Brexitania with this one.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Can't believe it, we get started on a non-Br*x*t discussion over on the last thread but then we are plunged back into Brexitania with this one.

    I keep trying to move the conversion on...slagging off Jamie's, poking fun at the ridiculous over importance given to the story of one London nightclub by a couple of media outlets,....
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209

    TOPPING said:

    Can't believe it, we get started on a non-Br*x*t discussion over on the last thread but then we are plunged back into Brexitania with this one.

    I keep trying to move the conversion on...slagging off Jamie's, poking fun at the ridiculous over importance given to the story of one London nightclub by a couple of media outlets,....
    All pointing to one thing....A...V....
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    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Can't believe it, we get started on a non-Br*x*t discussion over on the last thread but then we are plunged back into Brexitania with this one.

    I keep trying to move the conversion on...slagging off Jamie's, poking fun at the ridiculous over importance given to the story of one London nightclub by a couple of media outlets,....
    All pointing to one thing....A...V....
    Please...FPTP vs AV vs PR^2...lets have it :-)
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    TOPPING said:

    Can't believe it, we get started on a non-Br*x*t whither Jezza discussion over on the last thread but then we are plunged back into Brexitania with this one.

    Yes, let's start talking about the French election. Much more interesting, and significant, than any number of local elections.
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    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    Shooter in custody.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    Not that I want her to win, but how many times did Trump fade in the polls? And in France we are talking about more complex system of multi-round voting.

    What's significant is that Macron is rising despite the focus being on the PS primary at the moment. He's looking like a stronger candidate as we get closer to the election.

    Sarkozy failing to get the Republican nomination was bad for Le Pen as he would have been her preferred opponent.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    We talk a lot about polling failures on here - and there have been a few - but a polling failure in France could seriously influence the outcome of the first round.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,839
    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
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    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Varying reports. Given that this is America could easily be some random nutter, gang fight, who knows.
    Or they didn't get their Starbucks order right.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Calling local by - elections "real elections" and trying to extrapolate anything from the outcomes is a bit desperate. Mark Senior territory.

    A current rolling average for the Westminster VI polls puts the Lib Dems on about 9%, or 1pt up on the 2015 GE. Plug all of the party shares into the Electoral Calculus model and the Lib Dems come out of a 2020 election on the revised boundaries with five seats (although that's still five more than either the Greens or Ukip!)

    Recent polling results also appear to suggest that, if there was any significant bounce post-Richmond Park, it has mostly abated - though I think we need more data to establish for certain whether there is any discernible trend in Lib Dem support one way or another, or if they've resumed their long-term pattern of stagnation. Regardless, they still have an awful lot of work to do.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited January 2017

    Calling local by - elections "real elections" and trying to extrapolate anything from the outcomes is a bit desperate. Mark Senior territory.

    A current rolling average for the Westminster VI polls puts the Lib Dems on about 9%, or 1pt up on the 2015 GE. Plug all of the party shares into the Electoral Calculus model and the Lib Dems come out of a 2020 election on the revised boundaries with five seats (although that's still five more than either the Greens or Ukip!)

    Recent polling results also appear to suggest that, if there was any significant bounce post-Richmond Park, it has mostly abated - though I think we need more data to establish for certain whether there is any discernible trend in Lib Dem support one way or another, or if they've resumed their long-term pattern of stagnation. Regardless, they still have an awful lot of work to do.
    Not that I'm angling to make my and @FrancisUrquhart's wishes about thread topic come true but it is properly, Polly acknowledged bonkers that the Kippers have no MPs for the number of votes they received in 2015.

    I am actually amazed (mildly, this is England, after all) that no one is on the streets about it.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Fillon is Thatcher. Macron is Blair.

    I would very much enjoy a face off between the two (albeit solely from a desire for amusement).

    Disclaimer: I met Macron in late 2015, and was very impressed. At a personal level he was clearly extremely bright and understood a lot of France's problems. But I wonder if he has the cojones to take on the vested interests in France.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    The notion that Le Pen is fading may be something of an exaggeration. The French presidential polls are complex - an entire series of questions is asked using a range of possible candidates - and she appears as third in the first round in only this specific scenario. And even then she's only four points adrift of the first place contender. I believe that she still places second or joint second in all of the other scenarios polled.

    All of that said, based on my (very limited) knowledge of the French situation, I would still expect Fillon to win the run-off.

    Probably.
    She was at 32% in the polls. She's now at about 24%.

    What term, other than 'fading', would you prefer?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    rcs1000 said:

    Disclaimer: I met Macron in late 2015, and was very impressed. At a personal level he was clearly extremely bright and understood a lot of France's problems. But I wonder if he has the cojones to take on the vested interests in France.

    Given that he would need to form a government from the other parties, they might see it as the ideal opportunity to slaughter some sacred cows and let Macron deal with the unpopularity.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    Jeez. The power of the Net

    This is the live audio feed from Fort Lauderdale Fire and Rescue

    http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/1216

    In what I must believe was an early tweet, the media staging area was identified by the airport. They know what importance media communication is these days.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,839
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.

    Thankfully, this one looks like it's over pretty quickly.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Calling local by - elections "real elections" and trying to extrapolate anything from the outcomes is a bit desperate. Mark Senior territory.

    A current rolling average for the Westminster VI polls puts the Lib Dems on about 9%, or 1pt up on the 2015 GE. Plug all of the party shares into the Electoral Calculus model and the Lib Dems come out of a 2020 election on the revised boundaries with five seats (although that's still five more than either the Greens or Ukip!)

    Recent polling results also appear to suggest that, if there was any significant bounce post-Richmond Park, it has mostly abated - though I think we need more data to establish for certain whether there is any discernible trend in Lib Dem support one way or another, or if they've resumed their long-term pattern of stagnation. Regardless, they still have an awful lot of work to do.
    Polls are a snapshot of opinion a bit like the advisory referendum.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Smithson, a poll with 34 million participants would cost an awful lot of cash...
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987

    Calling local by - elections "real elections" and trying to extrapolate anything from the outcomes is a bit desperate. Mark Senior territory.

    Here is a desperate extrapolation.

    Using an exponential moving average on national polls, the current position (and the movement over the last two months) is as follows;

    Con 40.4% (-0.3%)
    Lab 27.9% (-1.0%)
    LD 9.2% (+1.3%)
    UKIP 12.5% (+0.5%)

    Extrapolating forward four months to May 2017 gives

    Con 39.8%
    Lab 25.9%
    LD 11.8%
    UKIP 13.5%

    Extrapolating forward another 36 months to May 2020 gives

    Con 35.0%
    Lab 9.9%
    LD 32.6%
    UKIP 21.5%

    Baxtering this gives the Tories 4 short of a majority as follows:


    Con 322
    Lab 9
    LD 215
    UKIP 25
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    edited January 2017

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Not that I want her to win, but how many times did Trump fade in the polls? And in France we are talking about more complex system of multi-round voting.
    But Trump also got to ride the most popular political party in the US, that regularly polled more than 50% and controlled the vast majority of states. He was also facing a truly abysmal Democrat candidate, who was - at best - a serial liar, and looked like she was hiding a serious medical condition.

    The Front National has underperformed - often by large margins - its opinion poll ratings in recent years. Dromedary calculated that, taking the December 2015 Regional elections, when the FN was polling 32% rather than 24%, and assuming that they got 100% of the increase in turnout (i.e. going from 58% at the Regionals to 80% in Presidential), that they would still be 10 points adrift.

    That's a staggering difference. Did the US polls ever have Hillary 2:1 up on Trump? They did not. There might have been a 10 point lead here or there, perhaps even 11 points. Fillon bests Le Pen between 65:35 and 72:28. That's not close. That's 40-1 territory, not 6-1.

    Le Pen had a chance: and that was that it would be her in the high 20s in the first round, and the six five dwarves (Sarkozy, Macron, Hollande, Melachon and Bayrou) all in the mid teens.

    But Hollande and Sarkozy have gone, and Bayrou will likely step aside. Against Fillon or Macron, she's absolutely slaughtered. As happened even in the most depressed regions of France in the immediate aftermath of the Bataclan attack.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Not that I want her to win, but how many times did Trump fade in the polls?
    The difference here is the voting system - if there had been two rounds in America Clinton would have won, I reckon, because the threat of Trump actually winning would have been made clear in the first round.

    Also, if Le Pen looks like winning Fillon will just go further right on culture and security issues, cutting off her oxygen.

    Le Pen needs Bataclan times 10 (and God forbid it ever happens)
    Hillary would have won in France. There is no electoral college there, they merely count the votes.
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    I really struggle to see the point of UKIP now. At best they are a 'backpocket party' to be kept alive in case the Tories renege on Brexit. But really they were only ever necessary to ensure we left the EU and now that looks like happening I see no point in keeping yet another party alive to pollute our politics (and I consider all parties to be pollution in the political landscape not just UKIP)
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Varying reports. Given that this is America could easily be some random nutter, gang fight, who knows.
    Or they didn't get their Starbucks order right.
    The best and most pertinent comment of the day.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    @rcs1000 - do you think Macron can beat Fillon if they were the final two?
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    The notion that Le Pen is fading may be something of an exaggeration. The French presidential polls are complex - an entire series of questions is asked using a range of possible candidates - and she appears as third in the first round in only this specific scenario. And even then she's only four points adrift of the first place contender. I believe that she still places second or joint second in all of the other scenarios polled.

    All of that said, based on my (very limited) knowledge of the French situation, I would still expect Fillon to win the run-off.

    Probably.
    She was at 32% in the polls. She's now at about 24%.

    What term, other than 'fading', would you prefer?
    Strategically redeploying her potential vote?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,839
    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    Yes, was JFK. Looked liked it started off by people reacting to the Olympic 100m final on television and quickly spread panic around the terminal as it was reported gunshots were heard. Horrible, and undoubtedly something that the bad guys will have noted.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/08/the-terrifying-jfk-airport-shooting-that-wasnt.html
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    matt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    The notion that Le Pen is fading may be something of an exaggeration. The French presidential polls are complex - an entire series of questions is asked using a range of possible candidates - and she appears as third in the first round in only this specific scenario. And even then she's only four points adrift of the first place contender. I believe that she still places second or joint second in all of the other scenarios polled.

    All of that said, based on my (very limited) knowledge of the French situation, I would still expect Fillon to win the run-off.

    Probably.
    She was at 32% in the polls. She's now at about 24%.

    What term, other than 'fading', would you prefer?
    Strategically redeploying her potential vote?
    negative growth?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    tlg86 said:

    @rcs1000 - do you think Macron can beat Fillon if they were the final two?

    I don't know.

    A week ago I was feeling really smug, having bought Macron in the 20s, and sold him between 9 and 12. (Netting myself enough for half a case of the Terrazas Malbec.)

    Now I'm feeling dumb. He's at 7s, and I'm thinking he definitely beats Le Pen, and is probably a 25% shot against Fillon. What chance he overtakes Le Pen? Probably one in the three.

    So, 33% * 25% + (what) 10% * 90% is about what's on offer now...
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Fillon is Thatcher. Macron is Blair.

    I would very much enjoy a face off between the two (albeit solely from a desire for amusement).

    Disclaimer: I met Macron in late 2015, and was very impressed. At a personal level he was clearly extremely bright and understood a lot of France's problems. But I wonder if he has the cojones to take on the vested interests in France.
    7/1 with Shadsy on these final two seems a reasonable punt, but is it better elsewhere?
  • Options

    Calling local by - elections "real elections" and trying to extrapolate anything from the outcomes is a bit desperate. Mark Senior territory.

    A current rolling average for the Westminster VI polls puts the Lib Dems on about 9%, or 1pt up on the 2015 GE. Plug all of the party shares into the Electoral Calculus model and the Lib Dems come out of a 2020 election on the revised boundaries with five seats (although that's still five more than either the Greens or Ukip!)

    Recent polling results also appear to suggest that, if there was any significant bounce post-Richmond Park, it has mostly abated - though I think we need more data to establish for certain whether there is any discernible trend in Lib Dem support one way or another, or if they've resumed their long-term pattern of stagnation. Regardless, they still have an awful lot of work to do.
    Polls are a snapshot of opinion a bit like the advisory referendum.

    And a bit like a general election.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    And a couple of decent ones, like JetBlue and Virgin America. And it's not like BA is anything to write home about these days.

    I agree that most American airports are a s**tshow, and the way that domestic baggage reclaim is open to anyone who wants to walk off the street was probably the reason it was targetted in this incident.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Yes but the PS candidate is not going to be Montebourg it is going to be Valls according to all the PS primary polls and that same poll showed in a Fillon, Le Pen, Valls, Macron race Fillon gets 26%, Le Pen 23%, Macron 18% and Valls 13%. With Bayrou Macron does even worse falling to 16% with Fillon on 23% and Le Pen on 22%. Unless Valls loses the PS nomination Macron has next to no chance of getting into the final 2

    http://elabe.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/05012017_les_echos_radio_classique_intentions-de-vote-presidentielles_vague_5.pdf

    Of course in the unlikely event it is Valls/Macron v Le Pen her chances of becoming president actually increase as she would be the candidate of the right, not Fillon
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    rpjs said:

    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    And a couple of decent ones, like JetBlue and Virgin America. And it's not like BA is anything to write home about these days.

    I agree that most American airports are a s**tshow, and the way that domestic baggage reclaim is open to anyone who wants to walk off the street was probably the reason it was targetted in this incident.
    To be honest, all commercial airlines are shit. If you have to travel, it's best to just charter.

    (True story time. I was at a party, and there was a loud, drunk and obnoxious person there. She said "My husband and I went to India for Christmas, and - of course - we flew First Class." I couldn't hold myself back. I looked her in the eye and said, in a voice of utter incredulity "You fly commercial???")

    ((I don't really charter planes.))
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Yes but the PS candidate is not going to be Montebourg it is going to be Valls according to all the PS primary polls and that same poll showed in a Fillon, Le Pen, Valls, Macron race Fillon gets 26%, Le Pen 23%, Macron 18% and Valls 13%. With Bayrou Macron does even worse falling to 16% with Fillon on 23% and Le Pen on 22%. Unless Valls loses the PS nomination Macron has next to no chance of getting into the final 2

    http://elabe.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/05012017_les_echos_radio_classique_intentions-de-vote-presidentielles_vague_5.pdf
    Clearly this is some new meaning of the phrase "no chance" that I was previously unaware of.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Calling local by - elections "real elections" and trying to extrapolate anything from the outcomes is a bit desperate. Mark Senior territory.

    A current rolling average for the Westminster VI polls puts the Lib Dems on about 9%, or 1pt up on the 2015 GE. Plug all of the party shares into the Electoral Calculus model and the Lib Dems come out of a 2020 election on the revised boundaries with five seats (although that's still five more than either the Greens or Ukip!)

    Recent polling results also appear to suggest that, if there was any significant bounce post-Richmond Park, it has mostly abated - though I think we need more data to establish for certain whether there is any discernible trend in Lib Dem support one way or another, or if they've resumed their long-term pattern of stagnation. Regardless, they still have an awful lot of work to do.
    Polls are a snapshot of opinion a bit like the advisory referendum.
    Now now... the Liberal Democrats were on about 8% for a couple of years before the election, they got 8% in the election, and have been on 8% pretty consistently since the election (possibly with a tiny, tiny uptick in the last few months.)

    If there were an election in the near future, it would therefore be perfectly reasonable to assume that they would get... 8%. Or something pretty damned close. That doesn't mean that they can't do better, of course, it's just that there's little indication at present that they will. The polls were almost much bang on in terms of vote share for all the smaller parties in 2015, as you know perfectly well, and there's no particular reason to suppose they are wildly out of kilter now - any more than there's any particular reason to suppose that the SNP aren't still on somewhere around 50% for the next GE in Scotland.

    When you take snapshots of something over and over and over and over again and they are all practically the same, it's a fair bet that said thing isn't moving very far.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    And a couple of decent ones, like JetBlue and Virgin America. And it's not like BA is anything to write home about these days.

    I agree that most American airports are a s**tshow, and the way that domestic baggage reclaim is open to anyone who wants to walk off the street was probably the reason it was targetted in this incident.
    To be honest, all commercial airlines are shit. If you have to travel, it's best to just charter.

    (True story time. I was at a party, and there was a loud, drunk and obnoxious person there. She said "My husband and I went to India for Christmas, and - of course - we flew First Class." I couldn't hold myself back. I looked her in the eye and said, in a voice of utter incredulity "You fly commercial???")

    ((I don't really charter planes.))
    If you ain't on a PJ, you ain't.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    I use AA a great deal because they are convenient and are part of One World. Their drinks policy is puritan.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    matt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    The notion that Le Pen is fading may be something of an exaggeration. The French presidential polls are complex - an entire series of questions is asked using a range of possible candidates - and she appears as third in the first round in only this specific scenario. And even then she's only four points adrift of the first place contender. I believe that she still places second or joint second in all of the other scenarios polled.

    All of that said, based on my (very limited) knowledge of the French situation, I would still expect Fillon to win the run-off.

    Probably.
    She was at 32% in the polls. She's now at about 24%.

    What term, other than 'fading', would you prefer?
    Strategically redeploying her potential vote?
    Fillon and Le Pen are fishing in the same rightwing pool, Melenchon and Montebourg would be fishing in the left pool leaving Macron with the centre all to himself. As soon as Valls wins the PS nomination he instantly splits the centre with Macron leaving Melenchon with the left to himself and if Le Pen takes back some of the right vote from Fillon she tops the poll
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Not that I want her to win, but how many times did Trump fade in the polls? And in France we are talking about more complex system of multi-round voting.
    But Trump also got to ride the most popular political party in the US, that regularly polled more than 50% and controlled the vast majority of states. He was also facing a truly abysmal Democrat candidate, who was - at best - a serial liar, and looked like she was hiding a serious medical condition.

    The Front National has underperformed - often by large margins - its opinion poll ratings in recent years. Dromedary calculated that, taking the December 2015 Regional elections, when the FN was polling 32% rather than 24%, and assuming that they got 100% of the increase in turnout (i.e. going from 58% at the Regionals to 80% in Presidential), that they would still be 10 points adrift.

    That's a staggering difference. Did the US polls ever have Hillary 2:1 up on Trump? They did not. There might have been a 10 point lead here or there, perhaps even 11 points. Fillon bests Le Pen between 65:35 and 72:28. That's not close. That's 40-1 territory, not 6-1.

    Le Pen had a chance: and that was that it would be her in the high 20s in the first round, and the six five dwarves (Sarkozy, Macron, Hollande, Melachon and Bayrou) all in the mid teens.

    But Hollande and Sarkozy have gone, and Bayrou will likely step aside. Against Fillon or Macron, she's absolutely slaughtered. As happened even in the most depressed regions of France in the immediate aftermath of the Bataclan attack.
    In round 1 in 2002 and 2012 the FN the Le Pens overperformed their poll rating
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rpjs said:

    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    And a couple of decent ones, like JetBlue and Virgin America. And it's not like BA is anything to write home about these days.

    I agree that most American airports are a s**tshow, and the way that domestic baggage reclaim is open to anyone who wants to walk off the street was probably the reason it was targetted in this incident.
    And international if you clear through Ireland (which I'd recommend).
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,839
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    And a couple of decent ones, like JetBlue and Virgin America. And it's not like BA is anything to write home about these days.

    I agree that most American airports are a s**tshow, and the way that domestic baggage reclaim is open to anyone who wants to walk off the street was probably the reason it was targetted in this incident.
    To be honest, all commercial airlines are shit. If you have to travel, it's best to just charter.

    (True story time. I was at a party, and there was a loud, drunk and obnoxious person there. She said "My husband and I went to India for Christmas, and - of course - we flew First Class." I couldn't hold myself back. I looked her in the eye and said, in a voice of utter incredulity "You fly commercial???")

    ((I don't really charter planes.))
    :+1: for that story!
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    matt said:

    rpjs said:

    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    And a couple of decent ones, like JetBlue and Virgin America. And it's not like BA is anything to write home about these days.

    I agree that most American airports are a s**tshow, and the way that domestic baggage reclaim is open to anyone who wants to walk off the street was probably the reason it was targetted in this incident.
    And international if you clear through Ireland (which I'd recommend).
    In that situation your flight is deemed "domestic" and handled as such on arrival. I agree the Irish pre-clearance is excellent.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Yes but the PS candidate is not going to be Montebourg it is going to be Valls according to all the PS primary polls and that same poll showed in a Fillon, Le Pen, Valls, Macron race Fillon gets 26%, Le Pen 23%, Macron 18% and Valls 13%. With Bayrou Macron does even worse falling to 16% with Fillon on 23% and Le Pen on 22%. Unless Valls loses the PS nomination Macron has next to no chance of getting into the final 2

    http://elabe.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/05012017_les_echos_radio_classique_intentions-de-vote-presidentielles_vague_5.pdf
    Clearly this is some new meaning of the phrase "no chance" that I was previously unaware of.
    Macron is further behind Le Pen than Le Pen is behind Fillon with or without Bayrou if Valls is PS candidate so that is pretty much no chance yes
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    And a couple of decent ones, like JetBlue and Virgin America. And it's not like BA is anything to write home about these days.

    I agree that most American airports are a s**tshow, and the way that domestic baggage reclaim is open to anyone who wants to walk off the street was probably the reason it was targetted in this incident.
    To be honest, all commercial airlines are shit. If you have to travel, it's best to just charter.

    (True story time. I was at a party, and there was a loud, drunk and obnoxious person there. She said "My husband and I went to India for Christmas, and - of course - we flew First Class." I couldn't hold myself back. I looked her in the eye and said, in a voice of utter incredulity "You fly commercial???")

    ((I don't really charter planes.))
    One of my previous employers which had biz jets (and yes I went on them). I'd take sensible commercial almost every time. The sort of employee that thought it was good to fly on them was, without exception, a ****. The sort of person who would fly business in Europe because of the "status".
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Yes but the PS candidate is not going to be Montebourg it is going to be Valls according to all the PS primary polls and that same poll showed in a Fillon, Le Pen, Valls, Macron race Fillon gets 26%, Le Pen 23%, Macron 18% and Valls 13%. With Bayrou Macron does even worse falling to 16% with Fillon on 23% and Le Pen on 22%. Unless Valls loses the PS nomination Macron has next to no chance of getting into the final 2

    http://elabe.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/05012017_les_echos_radio_classique_intentions-de-vote-presidentielles_vague_5.pdf
    Clearly this is some new meaning of the phrase "no chance" that I was previously unaware of.
    Macron is further behind Le Pen than Le Pen is behind Fillon with or without Bayrou if Valls is PS candidate so that is pretty much no chance yes
    One in a hundred is "no chance".

    What is your definition, for future reference.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    @NBCNightlyNews 2m2 minutes ago
    BREAKING: Multiple people dead after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood airport, federal officials tell @NBCNightlyNews - @PeteWilliamsNBC

    One dead, nine injuries, suspect in custody is the latest report. Fingers crossed that's all it is.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/shots-fired-fort-lauderdale-airport-live/
    Sounds like it's in the baggage claim, which is landside.
    FWIW an airport is a very ISIS-y target. Spreads terror around travelling. More impact than some casual drive-by in the street.

    On the other hand the shooter is apparently alive and in custody (how the hell do you manage that against armed US cops??), which is not very ISIS-y at all.
    Wasn't there a mass panic at a US airport a couple of months ago, the descriptions of which were quite horrifying? Doesn't take much to cause a lot of deaths and injuries.
    Yes, JFK I think.
    LAX I recall. Which is probably the 9th circle of hell at the best of times.
    I stand corrected.

    Yes, LAX is truly horrible.

    America has really shite airports. And rubbish airlines.
    I use AA a great deal because they are convenient and are part of One World. Their drinks policy is puritan.
    Just been to Vegas for Christmas on AA from NYC and the service on the outbound leg was really good. I declined my meal on board as I'd filled up in the Flagship Lounge (OW Emerald) and the FA tried so hard to get me to have more drinks because she felt I was missing out. If I wasn't having to look after my wife who is terrified of flying I'm sure the FA would have given me enough booze to put me out!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Not that I want her to win, but how many times did Trump fade in the polls? And in France we are talking about more complex system of multi-round voting.
    But Trump also got to ride the most popular political party in the US, that regularly polled more than 50% and controlled the vast majority of states. He was also facing a truly abysmal Democrat candidate, who was - at best - a serial liar, and looked like she was hiding a serious medical condition.

    The Front National has underperformed - often by large margins - its opinion poll ratings in recent years. Dromedary calculated that, taking the December 2015 Regional elections, when the FN was polling 32% rather than 24%, and assuming that they got 100% of the increase in turnout (i.e. going from 58% at the Regionals to 80% in Presidential), that they would still be 10 points adrift.

    That's a staggering difference. Did the US polls ever have Hillary 2:1 up on Trump? They did not. There might have been a 10 point lead here or there, perhaps even 11 points. Fillon bests Le Pen between 65:35 and 72:28. That's not close. That's 40-1 territory, not 6-1.

    Le Pen had a chance: and that was that it would be her in the high 20s in the first round, and the six five dwarves (Sarkozy, Macron, Hollande, Melachon and Bayrou) all in the mid teens.

    But Hollande and Sarkozy have gone, and Bayrou will likely step aside. Against Fillon or Macron, she's absolutely slaughtered. As happened even in the most depressed regions of France in the immediate aftermath of the Bataclan attack.
    In round 1 in 2002 and 2012 the FN the Le Pens overperformed their poll rating
    Source?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    SeanT said:

    Confirmed

    @jasian12345 55s55 seconds ago
    More shots fired in the parking garage at Fort Lauderdale. #FtLauderdale

    On the feed they're saying multiple shooters and multiple locations.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited January 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Yes but the PS candidate is not going to be Montebourg it is going to be Valls according to all the PS primary polls and that same poll showed in a Fillon, Le Pen, Valls, Macron race Fillon gets 26%, Le Pen 23%, Macron 18% and Valls 13%. With Bayrou Macron does even worse falling to 16% with Fillon on 23% and Le Pen on 22%. Unless Valls loses the PS nomination Macron has next to no chance of getting into the final 2

    http://elabe.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/05012017_les_echos_radio_classique_intentions-de-vote-presidentielles_vague_5.pdf
    Clearly this is some new meaning of the phrase "no chance" that I was previously unaware of.
    Macron is further behind Le Pen than Le Pen is behind Fillon with or without Bayrou if Valls is PS candidate so that is pretty much no chance yes
    One in a hundred is "no chance".

    What is your definition, for future reference.
    There is a chance an asteroid will land in the street in the next 5 minutes I said 'pretty much' no chance for a reason. New PS poll has Valls leading on 43% to 25% for Montebourg and 22% for Hamon in round 1. In round 2 Valls beats Montebourg 55% to 45% and Hamon 57% to 43%
    http://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2017/01/Rapport-Harris-Intentions-de-vote-à-la-primaire-du-PS-et-de-ses-alliés-France-TV.pdf
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    I really struggle to see the point of UKIP now. At best they are a 'backpocket party' to be kept alive in case the Tories renege on Brexit. But really they were only ever necessary to ensure we left the EU and now that looks like happening I see no point in keeping yet another party alive to pollute our politics (and I consider all parties to be pollution in the political landscape not just UKIP)

    Perhaps they will eventually fade away, perhaps not. I think it depends on the Labour Party. My belief is that far more of Ukip's support is now drawn from traditional Labour than from traditional Tory electors: since Brexit, it essentially seems to be an alliance of traditional, social conservative white working class Labour voters who feel that the party no longer either represents them or likes them very much; a residue of the hard line Eurosceptic Right that still won't trust the Tories; and the 2-3% of voters who are most sympathetic to the Far Right and may have voted BNP more than once in the past.

    So long as those ex-Labour voters still feel they have nowhere to go, Ukip should continue to poll in double figures. So the ball is very much in Labour's court - unless Theresa May can convince more of them to come over to the Tories. I suspect that many or most of this group of voters are culturally averse to the Conservatives and very reluctant to consider voting for them, but I think that the Tories are organising in parts of the Labour heartland and are going to try to win them over anyway.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited January 2017
    If this shooting is confirmed as ISIS could be an excuse for Trump to bring back his ban on Muslims entering the US once he enters the White House in a fortnight. Will also likely then see a joint US-Russia-Assad-Turkey-Kurd-Iraqi assault on the ISIS in Iraq and Syria
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    SeanT said:

    Confirmed

    @jasian12345 55s55 seconds ago
    More shots fired in the parking garage at Fort Lauderdale. #FtLauderdale

    On the feed they're saying multiple shooters and multiple locations.
    Watching CNN and there seems to be a lot of confusion and jumpiness by the police (obviously) but no real indication of additional shooters
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited January 2017
    Just announced shooter's name is Esteban Santiago - had a military ID on him. Unclear if ID is real. - FL Sen Bill Nelson on CNN, says he got it from head of TSA - Adm Neffinger.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    edited January 2017
    rpjs said:

    Just announced shooter's name is Esteban Santiago - had a military ID on him. Unclear if ID is real. - FL Sen Bill Nelson on CNN, says he got it from head of TSA - Adm Neffinger.

    Mexican terrorism following wall building plans?
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    SeanT said:

    What the hell does THAT imply?? Bizarre and scary
    "I'm not Jewish" Oh god is it an islamist, is it a white nationalist or a corbynite????we just can't tell.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Le Pen is fading

    https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/817431010396741632



    This is surely Fillon's, barring a terror nightmare. What are the odds on him?

    Not that I want her to win, but how many times did Trump fade in the polls? And in France we are talking about more complex system of multi-round voting.
    But Trump also got to ride the most popular political party in the US, that regularly polled more than 50% and controlled the vast majority of states. He was also facing a truly abysmal Democrat candidate, who was - at best - a serial liar, and looked like she was hiding a serious medical condition.

    The Front National has underperformed - often by large margins - its opinion poll ratings in recent years. Dromedary calculated that, taking the December 2015 Regional elections, when the FN was polling 32% rather than 24%, and assuming that they got 100% of the increase in turnout (i.e. going from 58% at the Regionals to 80% in Presidential), that they would still be 10 points adrift.

    That's a staggering difference. Did the US polls ever have Hillary 2:1 up on Trump? They did not. There might have been a 10 point lead here or there, perhaps even 11 points. Fillon bests Le Pen between 65:35 and 72:28. That's not close. That's 40-1 territory, not 6-1.

    Le Pen had a chance: and that was that it would be her in the high 20s in the first round, and the six five dwarves (Sarkozy, Macron, Hollande, Melachon and Bayrou) all in the mid teens.

    But Hollande and Sarkozy have gone, and Bayrou will likely step aside. Against Fillon or Macron, she's absolutely slaughtered. As happened even in the most depressed regions of France in the immediate aftermath of the Bataclan attack.
    In round 1 in 2002 and 2012 the FN the Le Pens overperformed their poll rating
    Source?
    Final 2002 poll had Jean Marie Le Pen on 14.5% and he got 16.86%.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2002

    Final 2012 polls had Marine Le Pen on 16% and 17% and she got 17.9%
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2012
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    CBS saying shooter Esteban Santiago is from NJ and was bearing multiple weapons and wearing a "dark uniform". None of the media I'm watching are reporting any suggestion that there are confirmed other shooters. Live footage is showing police on alert; searching areas, crouched behind vehicles with rifles etc.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    rpjs said:

    Just announced shooter's name is Esteban Santiago - had a military ID on him. Unclear if ID is real. - FL Sen Bill Nelson on CNN, says he got it from head of TSA - Adm Neffinger.

    Certainly never heard of a Muslim called Esteban before, maybe not ISIS after all
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Just announced shooter's name is Esteban Santiago - had a military ID on him. Unclear if ID is real. - FL Sen Bill Nelson on CNN, says he got it from head of TSA - Adm Neffinger.

    Mexican terrorism following wall building plans?
    How many dead Robert?

    I thought my sense of humor was dark........
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Suspect is living in Naples, FL, reported to have served in military but not clear if still serving.
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    SeanT said:

    2nd shooter "confirmed" by Fox

    Is it definite that the first suspect in custody is a shooter and not an innocent? The Germans nicked the wrong person at first the other day and its unusual to have an armed suspect arrested rather than shot in these scenarios in the US.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    SeanT said:

    2nd shooter "confirmed" by Fox

    Is it definite that the first suspect in custody is a shooter and not an innocent? The Germans nicked the wrong person at first the other day and its unusual to have an armed suspect arrested rather than shot in these scenarios in the US.
    SeanT said:

    rpjs said:

    CBS saying shooter Esteban Santiago is from NJ and was bearing multiple weapons and wearing a "dark uniform". None of the media I'm watching are reporting any suggestion that there are confirmed other shooters. Live footage is showing police on alert; searching areas, crouched behind vehicles with rifles etc.

    Try Fox, or the Live Audio Feed
    Fox currently saying "no evidence" of a second shooter.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    Just announced shooter's name is Esteban Santiago - had a military ID on him. Unclear if ID is real. - FL Sen Bill Nelson on CNN, says he got it from head of TSA - Adm Neffinger.

    Certainly never heard of a Muslim called Esteban before, maybe not ISIS after all
    Howabout one called Dave?

    We have no idea whether this is islamic terrorism or not at this stage but do bear in mind you can't just go by a name. Leaving "Dave" aside, it could have been false ID or even someone who converted.

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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    MSNBC say there are rumours of a second shooter but no confirmation from law enforcement.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Fort Lauderdale is a millatry town right?
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    nunu said:

    Fort Lauderdale is a millatry town right?

    Didn't think so, I thought it was basically a retirement town of old people.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    SeanT said:

    rpjs said:

    SeanT said:

    2nd shooter "confirmed" by Fox

    Is it definite that the first suspect in custody is a shooter and not an innocent? The Germans nicked the wrong person at first the other day and its unusual to have an armed suspect arrested rather than shot in these scenarios in the US.
    SeanT said:

    rpjs said:

    CBS saying shooter Esteban Santiago is from NJ and was bearing multiple weapons and wearing a "dark uniform". None of the media I'm watching are reporting any suggestion that there are confirmed other shooters. Live footage is showing police on alert; searching areas, crouched behind vehicles with rifles etc.

    Try Fox, or the Live Audio Feed
    Fox currently saying "no evidence" of a second shooter.
    But they are quoting the local sheriff who says there IS a 2nd shooter

    I agree, tho: very confused. The controllers on the live audio were adamant about a 2nd shooter... But could just be panic.

    CBS saying that police on site beginning to calm down. There is a parking garage that's still being searched but it seems the police activity there is diminishing.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2017
    Bit weird Sky News haven't gone to Fox for breaking of this shooting. Normally they are very quick to go over to US coverage when there is an ongoing incident.

    Instead they are banging on about Trump.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    nunu said:

    Fort Lauderdale is a millatry town right?

    Didn't think so, I thought it was basically a retirement town of old people.
    Big convention centers there (I've been to one there). Also a cruise ship terminal. Apparently a lot of cruise ships due to depart today so people flying in incl from Canada to join cruises.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    nunu said:

    Fort Lauderdale is a millatry town right?

    There used to be a naval presence there - the airport is the former Fort Lauderdale Naval Air Station, famous for being the station Flight 19 (the early Bermuda triangle case) left from in 1945.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2017
    Shooter (26-year-old Esteban Santiago, of New Jersey) was dressed in a Star Wars shirt apparently.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Some light relief:
    twitter.com/theuptake/status/817452214125883393

    Biden for Governor General? :D
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    Floater said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Just announced shooter's name is Esteban Santiago - had a military ID on him. Unclear if ID is real. - FL Sen Bill Nelson on CNN, says he got it from head of TSA - Adm Neffinger.

    Mexican terrorism following wall building plans?
    How many dead Robert?

    I thought my sense of humor was dark........
    More than 3,000 people died in road accidents today.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Just announced shooter's name is Esteban Santiago - had a military ID on him. Unclear if ID is real. - FL Sen Bill Nelson on CNN, says he got it from head of TSA - Adm Neffinger.

    Mexican terrorism following wall building plans?
    How many dead Robert?

    I thought my sense of humor was dark........
    More than 3,000 people died in road accidents today.
    right........ shakes head and wanders off
This discussion has been closed.