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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on whether or not Jeremy Hunt will be Health Secretary

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on whether or not Jeremy Hunt will be Health Secretary on the 1st of January 2018

William Hill have a market up whether Jeremy Hunt will be Health Secretary on the 1st of January 2018. I think taking the 2/5 on him being Health Secretary on the 1st of January 2018 is the best option. Here’s why you’ll be getting a 40% return in less than ten months.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First?

    Good morning from Mumbai, where it's scorchio!
  • Second In the morning beauty contest.. oh it's PB,,,
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    It seems a bad bet. Hunt's had loads of muck thrown at him whilst in the job, but the attacks have been ineffective (perhaps because of the way they've been done). What Labour needs is a scandal, preferably NHS related, that can be nailed firmly to his door.

    However, even then Labour might find it difficult. Labour are the party of: "the NHS is a wonder of the world; all it's staff are saints and everything's perfect." If anything happens with that attitude, it cannot be the NHS's fault, and therefore politicians are in the bullseye.

    The Conservatives are currently much more: "The NHS is generally good, but could be better." Not only is it more realistic, it also offers them a modicum of protection.

    Still, anyone using the NHS should wake up each morning thankful that we have Hunt in the job, and not Burnham. The man who puts the reputation of the NHS over patients' safety.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    First?

    Good morning from Mumbai, where it's scorchio!

    Disqualified for want of certainty ...

    Second In the morning beauty contest.. oh it's PB,,,

    Disqualified for want of acknowledgment that you love animals.

    It seems a bad bet. Hunt's had loads of muck thrown at him whilst in the job, but the attacks have been ineffective (perhaps because of the way they've been done). What Labour needs is a scandal, preferably NHS related, that can be nailed firmly to his door.

    However, even then Labour might find it difficult. Labour are the party of: "the NHS is a wonder of the world; all it's staff are saints and everything's perfect." If anything happens with that attitude, it cannot be the NHS's fault, and therefore politicians are in the bullseye.

    The Conservatives are currently much more: "The NHS is generally good, but could be better." Not only is it more realistic, it also offers them a modicum of protection.

    Still, anyone using the NHS should wake up each morning thankful that we have Hunt in the job, and not Burnham. The man who puts the reputation of the NHS over patients' safety.

    Disqualified for want of noting first place ....

    ...............................................................

    FIRST .. :smile:
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    I saw Hunt speak at a Conference in Bmth - 04?

    He was clearly heading for the top job even then...
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited February 2017

    It seems a bad bet. Hunt's had loads of muck thrown at him whilst in the job, but the attacks have been ineffective (perhaps because of the way they've been done). What Labour needs is a scandal, preferably NHS related, that can be nailed firmly to his door.

    However, even then Labour might find it difficult. Labour are the party of: "the NHS is a wonder of the world; all it's staff are saints and everything's perfect." If anything happens with that attitude, it cannot be the NHS's fault, and therefore politicians are in the bullseye.

    The Conservatives are currently much more: "The NHS is generally good, but could be better." Not only is it more realistic, it also offers them a modicum of protection.

    Still, anyone using the NHS should wake up each morning thankful that we have Hunt in the job, and not Burnham. The man who puts the reputation of the NHS over patients' safety.

    I still rate Hunt as a real contender in a future Consevative Leadership contest, especially after he survived his epic battle with junior doctors and their Union the BMA over the a seven day NHS. At the end of the day, still find it incredible that Hunt came under so much political fire outside the medical profession for simple wanting to make sure that we extended a fully functioning National Health service to seven days a week for the patients.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mortimer said:

    I saw Hunt speak at a Conference in Bmth - 04?

    He was clearly heading for the top job even then...

    But as yet has failed to become Head Taster for Auchentennach Fine Pies ....

    And now a mere Cabinet Minister - How the mighty have fallen.
  • Mrs May has learned from David Cameron’s example and will not make annual reshuffles, so I’d expect scandals notwithstanding, Mrs May won’t be holding a major reshuffle this year

    Indeed - Mrs May benefited from being in post 6 years. In a previous life we used to reckon the first two-three years of an assignment could be written off - learning, making mistakes, it was only from year three onwards people really started contributing (so of course, we moved people after three years...).

    If you're worried about good governance, leave people in post as long as they are contributing or there isn't someone better suited to the job. If you're worried about rivals and internal factions, keep people moving.....
  • JackW said:

    First?

    Good morning from Mumbai, where it's scorchio!

    Disqualified for want of certainty ...

    Second In the morning beauty contest.. oh it's PB,,,

    Disqualified for want of acknowledgment that you love animals.

    It seems a bad bet. Hunt's had loads of muck thrown at him whilst in the job, but the attacks have been ineffective (perhaps because of the way they've been done). What Labour needs is a scandal, preferably NHS related, that can be nailed firmly to his door.

    However, even then Labour might find it difficult. Labour are the party of: "the NHS is a wonder of the world; all it's staff are saints and everything's perfect." If anything happens with that attitude, it cannot be the NHS's fault, and therefore politicians are in the bullseye.

    The Conservatives are currently much more: "The NHS is generally good, but could be better." Not only is it more realistic, it also offers them a modicum of protection.

    Still, anyone using the NHS should wake up each morning thankful that we have Hunt in the job, and not Burnham. The man who puts the reputation of the NHS over patients' safety.

    Disqualified for want of noting first place ....

    ...............................................................

    FIRST .. :smile:

    As deluded as a Corbyn supporter.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    JackW said:

    First?

    Good morning from Mumbai, where it's scorchio!

    Disqualified for want of certainty ...

    Second In the morning beauty contest.. oh it's PB,,,

    Disqualified for want of acknowledgment that you love animals.

    It seems a bad bet. Hunt's had loads of muck thrown at him whilst in the job, but the attacks have been ineffective (perhaps because of the way they've been done). What Labour needs is a scandal, preferably NHS related, that can be nailed firmly to his door.

    However, even then Labour might find it difficult. Labour are the party of: "the NHS is a wonder of the world; all it's staff are saints and everything's perfect." If anything happens with that attitude, it cannot be the NHS's fault, and therefore politicians are in the bullseye.

    The Conservatives are currently much more: "The NHS is generally good, but could be better." Not only is it more realistic, it also offers them a modicum of protection.

    Still, anyone using the NHS should wake up each morning thankful that we have Hunt in the job, and not Burnham. The man who puts the reputation of the NHS over patients' safety.

    Disqualified for want of noting first place ....

    ...............................................................

    FIRST .. :smile:

    As deluded as a Corbyn supporter.
    The lust for a PB first corrupts even the most noble of people. :smiley:
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Mrs May has learned from David Cameron’s example and will not make annual reshuffles, so I’d expect scandals notwithstanding, Mrs May won’t be holding a major reshuffle this year

    Indeed - Mrs May benefited from being in post 6 years. In a previous life we used to reckon the first two-three years of an assignment could be written off - learning, making mistakes, it was only from year three onwards people really started contributing (so of course, we moved people after three years...).

    If you're worried about good governance, leave people in post as long as they are contributing or there isn't someone better suited to the job. If you're worried about rivals and internal factions, keep people moving.....

    David Davis would be my guess. Temperamentally unsuited to being a cabinet minister and i/c of a task that is almost certainly doomed to failure.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    First?

    Good morning from Mumbai, where it's scorchio!

    Disqualified for want of certainty ...

    Second In the morning beauty contest.. oh it's PB,,,

    Disqualified for want of acknowledgment that you love animals.

    It seems a bad bet. Hunt's had loads of muck thrown at him whilst in the job, but the attacks have been ineffective (perhaps because of the way they've been done). What Labour needs is a scandal, preferably NHS related, that can be nailed firmly to his door.

    However, even then Labour might find it difficult. Labour are the party of: "the NHS is a wonder of the world; all it's staff are saints and everything's perfect." If anything happens with that attitude, it cannot be the NHS's fault, and therefore politicians are in the bullseye.

    The Conservatives are currently much more: "The NHS is generally good, but could be better." Not only is it more realistic, it also offers them a modicum of protection.

    Still, anyone using the NHS should wake up each morning thankful that we have Hunt in the job, and not Burnham. The man who puts the reputation of the NHS over patients' safety.

    Disqualified for want of noting first place ....

    ...............................................................

    FIRST .. :smile:

    As deluded as a Corbyn supporter.
    Mr Mada Safish - You are hereby refused entry to PB under the terms of President Trump's Executive Order - Exclusion of Muslim Sounding Names (Potential Internet Access To United States).
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    I would expect a reshuffle this Summer, 12 months after the Brexit vote, with locals out of the way,May will need to promote and move talent and lose it where necessary (and to keep faithful MPs hopeful). Hunt seems safe as its a job that is difficult, easy to be blamed for and seems to have come through. Fallon seems a more likely move/retirement, he is getting on a bit, has come across as a bit too nasty party (remember his comments about Sadiq Khan last year). Whether Liam Fox and Boris will move???? - I agree Davis looks vulnerable remains to be seen - esp once the EU leaders' positions become more clear (and France, Germay and Netherlands have voted), in sum, a reshuffle looks more likely than not.
  • Roger said:

    Mrs May has learned from David Cameron’s example and will not make annual reshuffles, so I’d expect scandals notwithstanding, Mrs May won’t be holding a major reshuffle this year

    Indeed - Mrs May benefited from being in post 6 years. In a previous life we used to reckon the first two-three years of an assignment could be written off - learning, making mistakes, it was only from year three onwards people really started contributing (so of course, we moved people after three years...).

    If you're worried about good governance, leave people in post as long as they are contributing or there isn't someone better suited to the job. If you're worried about rivals and internal factions, keep people moving.....

    David Davis would be my guess. Temperamentally unsuited to being a cabinet minister and i/c of a task that is almost certainly doomed to failure.
    Before he started work that would have been my guess too - but he seems to have knuckled down to the job and appears to be getting on with it. If it is a disaster though I suspect a large chunk of the electorate will be more than willing to blame the EU......
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    The NHS appears to serve as Labour's comfort blanket, and these days, it is essentially all they have got.

    They claim full credit for its existence and never mention that the ball was set rolling under Churchill's coalition government. The fact that it has been run by Tory governments for the larger part of its existence never crosses their lips.

    Instead they stick their fingers in their ears and seem to work upon the basis that if you say something often enough, it must be true.

    It does however seem that the electorate have got tired of listening.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2017

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    Wasn’t that mentioned in the expenses?
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Hmm. Those odds are long. And yet, I can't see him actually winning.

    Would work as a trading bet, if Hunt wanted to chance his arm.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    Wasn’t that mentioned in the expenses?
    I was being cheeky and talking about the Government's pamphlet, which didn't count towards the expenditure limit.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    First Blair now Hesseltine...I think it's going to be a while before the fat lady sings.

    http://news.sky.com/story/lord-heseltine-to-head-tory-rebellion-against-pm-on-brexit-10782525
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    First Blair now Hesseltine...I think it's going to be a while before the fat lady sings.

    http://news.sky.com/story/lord-heseltine-to-head-tory-rebellion-against-pm-on-brexit-10782525
    I bet May is quaking in her boots.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    Wasn’t that mentioned in the expenses?
    I was being cheeky and talking about the Government's pamphlet, which didn't count towards the expenditure limit.
    At least we all knew about that!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Morning. That 80/1 is probably worth a pint, I'm on. The 2/5 is probably not worth it given it's 10 months away, they only way I can see it happening is if there's a general election this year - and even then, Hunt was one of the few ministers offer in post by May when she took over, so they are clearly on the same page when it comes to policy decisions.

    It would also be a massive scoop for Labour if he were to go, so, barring a personal scandal or an inquiry/inquest pointing directly at his door, he's safe this year.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hmm. Those odds are long. And yet, I can't see him actually winning.

    Would work as a trading bet, if Hunt wanted to chance his arm.

    The best you can say about Hunt is that he is one of the very few politicians who can make Corbyn look like a leader
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    First Blair now Hesseltine...I think it's going to be a while before the fat lady sings.

    http://news.sky.com/story/lord-heseltine-to-head-tory-rebellion-against-pm-on-brexit-10782525
    I'm reminded of Jack Carter's words - as uttered by the Prime Minister:

    "You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself."
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    First Blair now Hesseltine...I think it's going to be a while before the fat lady sings.

    http://news.sky.com/story/lord-heseltine-to-head-tory-rebellion-against-pm-on-brexit-10782525
    I bet May is quaking in her boots.
    You obviously can't spot a big beast when you see one!
  • DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    When I'm sad, I pop along to labourlist.org to see the Labour Party playing with their faux outrage and getting muddled about simple concepts. This is Citizen Khan's speech - Pot, Kettle etc. The comments are most fun.

    http://labourlist.org/2017/02/sadiq-khan-scottish-nationalism-can-be-as-divisive-as-racism/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    And if Hunt were to go, who would want to replace him in the role that's political poison to opponents of the government. One is also reminded of the immortal reaction of John Reid, on being appointed SoS for Health back in 2003*

    * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reid,_Baron_Reid_of_Cardowan#cite_note-39
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2017
    Sandpit said:

    And if Hunt were to go, who would want to replace him in the role that's political poison to opponents of the government. One is also reminded of the immortal reaction of John Reid, on being appointed SoS for Health back in 2003*

    * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reid,_Baron_Reid_of_Cardowan#cite_note-39

    Andrea Leadsom would be my choice though I'd always fancied her as prisons minister. Now we're not constrained by Europe we could become the S & M capital of the civilised world
  • The tweet about the shadow cabinet is fascinating, what a complete mess the Labour Party is in.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited February 2017
    Roger said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hmm. Those odds are long. And yet, I can't see him actually winning.

    Would work as a trading bet, if Hunt wanted to chance his arm.

    The best you can say about Hunt is that he is one of the very few politicians who can make Corbyn look like a leader
    Hunt is not good at his job, and doesn't listen to experts. He did Murdoch some major favours over the years so is in his pocket, and has the backing of Mrs May as in this clip:

    https://youtu.be/nsCDAp_aFEg

    Both TSE's tips are reasonable bets. The fact that he is rubbish, insults his own staff and cannot staff a hospital 5 days a week, let alone 7, is beside the point. Incompetence at the job (such as May controlling Non EU immigration) is completly beside the point. Incompetence has never been a bar to high office in Westminster.

    I have always said Mid Staffs was not an isolated case. Read here how 10 years of warnings, five of which were under Hunt, were ignored about the Pennine Trust:

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/scandalous-failings-pennine-acute-were-12467640
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    The tweet about the shadow cabinet is fascinating, what a complete mess the Labour Party is in.

    Well spotted
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    "..........a donation of services that was not declared to the electoral commission".

    Maybe we should rerun the vote


    Interesting how 'Breibart' is now preceded by the word 'shadowy'
    Maybe it was enough to counter Remain's free mail shot to every single residence in the UK? :smiley:
    Wasn’t that mentioned in the expenses?
    Nope. It was paid for - with public money - before the referendum spending period kicked in.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,771
    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869

    I've just signed it. Likely to be more effective than Corbyn
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    Roger said:

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869

    I've just signed it. Likely to be more effective than Corbyn
    Good. I'm looking forward to Boris's contribution to the debate.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869


    The UK electorate was also led to believe that continued access to the EU single market would be likely if we voted to leave the EU. Many people believed this but the government has stated it will not be seeking to remain in the single market

    Simply not true.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Roger said:

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869

    I've just signed it. Likely to be more effective than Corbyn
    So have I. It’s a win/win, really, isn’t it!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2017
    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    Perhaps being Scottish you don't get really irritating English voices? When James Naughtie made his famous freudian slip I'm sure it was because he was psyching himself up for that 'scratching a blackboard' sound.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjH4arIn-80
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,771

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Ok, that is an obvious exception. But tories like someone who is willing to take on over mighty Unions (Maggie style) and stand their ground. I remember hearing Hunt doing a Nicky Campbell show at the GE replacing Cameron at short notice. No one laid a glove on him. Given the hysteria that surrounds the NHS it struck me as an excellent performance.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    RobD said:

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869


    The UK electorate was also led to believe that continued access to the EU single market would be likely if we voted to leave the EU. Many people believed this but the government has stated it will not be seeking to remain in the single market

    Simply not true.
    Well, it's debatable. But I agree that it would have been better (i.e. more clearly focused) if the proposer had left it as simply:

    The only slogan on the side of the Leave EU campaign bus stated in large letters that if we left the EU, £350m per week could go to the NHS. The government has now stated that this will not happen so the reason thousands voted for Brexit and the democratic will of the people has been ignored.
  • RobD said:

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869


    The UK electorate was also led to believe that continued access to the EU single market would be likely if we voted to leave the EU. Many people believed this but the government has stated it will not be seeking to remain in the single market

    Simply not true.
    https://youtu.be/4MaYV778kgU
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869


    The UK electorate was also led to believe that continued access to the EU single market would be likely if we voted to leave the EU. Many people believed this but the government has stated it will not be seeking to remain in the single market

    Simply not true.
    Well, it's debatable. But I agree that it would have been better (i.e. more clearly focused) if the proposer had left it as simply:

    The only slogan on the side of the Leave EU campaign bus stated in large letters that if we left the EU, £350m per week could go to the NHS. The government has now stated that this will not happen so the reason thousands voted for Brexit and the democratic will of the people has been ignored.
    And I must have missed the government's announcement on NHS spending? Surely at some point in the future spending will be £350mn/week higher than it is now. :smiley:
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    O/t, but interesting. Perhaps we should have a second look at the ‘decision’ by the ‘overwhelming’ majority.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

    quote.....Robert Mercer, who bankrolled Donald Trump, played key role with ‘sinister’ advice on using Facebook data...... unquote

    I had no idea that Bertie Nix was CEO! Was sort of mates at school but have lost touch since.

    Fairly marginal article though - Mercer made an introduction & presumably there was either a pitch or Alexander got paid for his work.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Roger said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hmm. Those odds are long. And yet, I can't see him actually winning.

    Would work as a trading bet, if Hunt wanted to chance his arm.

    The best you can say about Hunt is that he is one of the very few politicians who can make Corbyn look like a leader
    (Snip)

    I have always said Mid Staffs was not an isolated case. Read here how 10 years of warnings, five of which were under Hunt, were ignored about the Pennine Trust:

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/scandalous-failings-pennine-acute-were-12467640
    Who has ever said that the mid-Staffs scandal was an isolated case?

    In an organisation the size of the NHS, there will always be mistakes. The important thing is for mistakes to be detected, corrected, and lessons learnt and spread. If possible, mechanisms should be put in place to prevent repeats.

    Labour's policy seems to be to make the NHS into some sort of god-like organisation, infallible and perfect. This is a massively dangerous route to take, and directly leads to patient harm. Burnham's comments about the second Francis report is typical.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited February 2017
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Morning Roger and the Remainers,

    Just to remind you to sign this, if you've not already done so. It has been gathering momentum over the last week.

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171869


    The UK electorate was also led to believe that continued access to the EU single market would be likely if we voted to leave the EU. Many people believed this but the government has stated it will not be seeking to remain in the single market

    Simply not true.
    Well, it's debatable. But I agree that it would have been better (i.e. more clearly focused) if the proposer had left it as simply:

    The only slogan on the side of the Leave EU campaign bus stated in large letters that if we left the EU, £350m per week could go to the NHS. The government has now stated that this will not happen so the reason thousands voted for Brexit and the democratic will of the people has been ignored.
    And I must have missed the government's announcement on NHS spending? Surely at some point in the future spending will be £350mn/week higher than it is now. :smiley:
    Indeed. And if we leave the EU in 2019 as planned, any Chancellor worth his job will announce in his 2020 budget just before the election, that health spending will be £350m more per week than it was on the date of the referendum. A good dose of inflation in the next couple of years makes that easier to achieve than the average man watching the news might think, it being something like a 1% annual real terms increase with inflation at 1.3% over four years
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    Just for the record my wife is not 'of the left'. Politics is not an interest we share, and at election time I have to drag her to the polling station, generally offering some alcohol-related incentive once she has performed her democratic duty.
  • Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    The system as it is currently set up and funded is inevitably going to fall apart at some point, given the demographic pressures. It seems quite possible that moment is upon us. On this occasion we know there's a wolf out there somewhere.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    The system as it is currently set up and funded is inevitably going to fall apart at some point, given the demographic pressures. It seems quite possible that moment is upon us. On this occasion we know there's a wolf out there somewhere.
    24 hours to save the NHS... and this time, we are serious.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Might be worth watching...

    @skynewsniall: @lisanandy describes Jeremy Corbyn's response to Copeland as "inadequate", says party currently unelectable. See interview on @RidgeOnSunday

    @skynewsniall: Rather difficult to dismiss Nandy's remarks as the ravings of a rabid Blairite.
  • RobD said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    The system as it is currently set up and funded is inevitably going to fall apart at some point, given the demographic pressures. It seems quite possible that moment is upon us. On this occasion we know there's a wolf out there somewhere.
    24 hours to save the NHS... and this time, we are serious.
    Old people cost far more to the health service in aggregate than young people. We are getting older as a society. But the funding isn't going up commensurately.

    We cannot expect the same health service in the long term if this doesn't change. The only question is when the crunch point comes.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Blimey, just look at the line up for reviewing the papers on Marr!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    Of all the Health Ministers that I have worked under, the only one who I have truly loathed is Patricia Hewitt. The only one that I have liked was a junior minister in the coalition, Norman Lamb. The rest are much of a muchness in terms of uselessness and malignity.

    I agree that the NHS crisis has been going since 1948, and I suspect we will continue to muddle through, with cuts here, rationing there, hospitals downsized everywhere. Scandals will continue. I voted against Brexit but agree it must be implemented, and the same goes for the NHS. The people have voted against funding it better, when given the chance and that too must be respected. It is the voters who have to live with the consequences after all, and Hunt is delivering that.

    The other week I was headhunted for a job in NZ, in a delightful city that I know from when I worked there 25 years ago. I am sorely tempted, but it is a couple of years too early for me. Grandpa Fox and Fox jr need me here for a couple more years.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Gina Miller fighting for the House of Lords! Who'd have thunk it? She wants a vote in Parliament in 18 months on "all options."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    It's not an outside view. Ask anyone who has lived in another country. Almost every other country has better organised healthcare than the UK.

    AIUI (from afar) the current big issue is the interaction between health and social care leading to significant bed-blocking by the infirm elderly with nowhere else to go. This is primarily a local authority rather than an NHS problem, but its leading to inefficiencies in the NHS as expensive capital equipment and staff sit idle. No-one is repaired to think outside their very small and tightly defined box, and so we are where we are. Someone needs to bang heads together, rather than praising the NHS as if it were a god.

    As an example - rent out a large house for six months of winter, close to a hospital. Staff it with nurses from Manila on temp visas who live on site and earn minimum wage less an allowance for their accommodation. Transfer the bed-blockers there until they can go somewhere else, freeing up consultants, surgeons and operating theatres. This requires the NHS, LA, Home Office and planning authority to work together to arrange - something that's clearly not happening any time soon.
  • tlg86 said:

    Gina Miller fighting for the House of Lords! Who'd have thunk it? She wants a vote in Parliament in 18 months on "all options."

    Gina Miller doesn't want us to leave the EU.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    Of all the Health Ministers that I have worked under, the only one who I have truly loathed is Patricia Hewitt. The only one that I have liked was a junior minister in the coalition, Norman Lamb. The rest are much of a muchness in terms of uselessness and malignity.

    I agree that the NHS crisis has been going since 1948, and I suspect we will continue to muddle through, with cuts here, rationing there, hospitals downsized everywhere. Scandals will continue. I voted against Brexit but agree it must be implemented, and the same goes for the NHS. The people have voted against funding it better, when given the chance and that too must be respected. It is the voters who have to live with the consequences after all, and Hunt is delivering that.

    The other week I was headhunted for a job in NZ, in a delightful city that I know from when I worked there 25 years ago. I am sorely tempted, but it is a couple of years too early for me. Grandpa Fox and Fox jr need me here for a couple more years.
    NHS in crisis since 1948? Even in 2010 after spending on it had doubled in real terms since 1997? Perhaps spending would have to double again to get it out of crisis.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    tlg86 said:

    Gina Miller fighting for the House of Lords! Who'd have thunk it? She wants a vote in Parliament in 18 months on "all options."

    Gina Miller doesn't want us to leave the EU.
    Gina Miller doesn't respect the voters.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Cookie said:

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.

    Agree. This, in my view, is 50% of the reason why Labour's ability to use the NHS as its main political weapon has finally begun to wane in recent years - and, indeed, why Copeland suggests that the sword may have been not merely blunted, but broken. Essentially they've been predicting the imminent demise of the NHS under successive Tory Prime Ministers ever since 1979. Voters can't help but to have noticed by this point that the NHS has not been abolished, or privatised, is still there, and what's more the customer experience of the majority of its users is good.

    Thus the "boy who cried wolf" analogy is spot on. Even if there were some nefarious plan being hatched in the heart of Whitehall to sell the whole lot off to an American pharmaceutical conglomerate or some such thing (and I think we can be pretty confident that there ain't,) then pretty much the only people who would believe reports of it would be just the sort of committed Leftists who have already been predicting the end of the world - rather like a preacher from an apocalyptic cult who issues regular, and invariably false, prophecies of the imminent advent of the Rapture - for the last four decades.

    The other half of the reason why Labour's NHS strategy won't work is even more obvious: namely, of course, that its leadership is literally incredible, nobody outside of the 10-15% of the electorate willing to seriously entertain a Far Left Government thinks it displays any degree of economic or broader managerial competence, and the wider Parliamentary party is gradually crumbling to rubble. Rather like the picturesque ruin of some once-great old mansion that's been gutted by a tremendous fire.

    A great many voters are still suspicious of entrusting the NHS to the Tories. However, faced with a choice of management team - either Theresa May and Jeremy Hunt, or Jeremy Corbyn and whoever the Hell's Shadow Health Secretary this week (I really can't be arsed to find out, and neither would 99.9% of voters) - then is it really any wonder if rather a lot of people prefer the former?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    I still cannot get over, even by his standards, how stupid corbyns remarks about turning back the Tory tide were. Poor drafting of a speech, but did nobody comment that tides cannot be turned back?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Purple Pinocchio on holiday

    Presumably a day trip to Australia via the moon!!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited February 2017

    tlg86 said:

    Gina Miller fighting for the House of Lords! Who'd have thunk it? She wants a vote in Parliament in 18 months on "all options."

    Gina Miller doesn't want us to leave the EU.
    Gina Miller doesn't respect the voters.
    We all knew that anyway. If it were that she genuinely wanted to see a role for Parliament, as she professed a few months ago, then fair enough. But that's not the case. Gina (and her wealthy backers) are determined to subvert the will of the people at any price. They're going to be a legal opposition to everything the government tries to do over Brexit, they want the PM's hands tied behind her back in the negotiations.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,771

    tlg86 said:

    Gina Miller fighting for the House of Lords! Who'd have thunk it? She wants a vote in Parliament in 18 months on "all options."

    Gina Miller doesn't want us to leave the EU.
    No, no, non. She is just a publically spirited citizen very concerned with the constitutional niceties. Honest.
  • A question for our linguistic experts. Is it reasonable to refer to a female victor or should she be a victrix?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,771
    Scott_P said:
    So is 5m the target then? Anything New Labour can do Maomentum can do better.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Woo, has 15% replaced 25% as the Labour floor under Corbyn?
  • Mr. kle4, are you saying Corbyn is not a modern day Cnut?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Scott_P said:
    Those 36% of don't knows just don't want to hurt Jeremy's feelings....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/yougov/status/835781802224668672

    Look at that LD surge! :smiley:
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    RobD said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    Of all the Health Ministers that I have worked under, the only one who I have truly loathed is Patricia Hewitt. The only one that I have liked was a junior minister in the coalition, Norman Lamb. The rest are much of a muchness in terms of uselessness and malignity.

    I agree that the NHS crisis has been going since 1948, and I suspect we will continue to muddle through, with cuts here, rationing there, hospitals downsized everywhere. Scandals will continue. I voted against Brexit but agree it must be implemented, and the same goes for the NHS. The people have voted against funding it better, when given the chance and that too must be respected. It is the voters who have to live with the consequences after all, and Hunt is delivering that.

    The other week I was headhunted for a job in NZ, in a delightful city that I know from when I worked there 25 years ago. I am sorely tempted, but it is a couple of years too early for me. Grandpa Fox and Fox jr need me here for a couple more years.
    NHS in crisis since 1948? Even in 2010 after spending on it had doubled in real terms since 1997? Perhaps spending would have to double again to get it out of crisis.
    I doubt that it doubled in real terms or we'd be spending more than ~9% of GDP on it. Anyway, double a dysfunctional hierarchy is still a dysfunctional hierarchy. The history of it since 1979 seems to be roughly one major reorganisation for every SoS of Health.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    kle4 said:

    I still cannot get over, even by his standards, how stupid corbyns remarks about turning back the Tory tide were. Poor drafting of a speech, but did nobody comment that tides cannot be turned back?

    Is there anybody in Labour not stupid. The cretinous mayor of London called 50% of Scots racists yesterday , wrecked the Labour Conference ( for what it was with half empty hall ) and had to backtrack big time. Makes Corbyn look like a genius.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    kle4 said:

    I still cannot get over, even by his standards, how stupid corbyns remarks about turning back the Tory tide were. Poor drafting of a speech, but did nobody comment that tides cannot be turned back?

    Calls to mind the following mixed metaphor: 'To take arms against a sea of troubles/ And by opposing them, end them'.

    If you're going to mix a metaphor you need to be Shakespeare to pull it off.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    RobD said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    Of all the Health Ministers that I have worked under, the only one who I have truly loathed is Patricia Hewitt. The only one that I have liked was a junior minister in the coalition, Norman Lamb. The rest are much of a muchness in terms of uselessness and malignity.

    I agree that the NHS crisis has been going since 1948, and I suspect we will continue to muddle through, with cuts here, rationing there, hospitals downsized everywhere. Scandals will continue. I voted against Brexit but agree it must be implemented, and the same goes for the NHS. The people have voted against funding it better, when given the chance and that too must be respected. It is the voters who have to live with the consequences after all, and Hunt is delivering that.

    The other week I was headhunted for a job in NZ, in a delightful city that I know from when I worked there 25 years ago. I am sorely tempted, but it is a couple of years too early for me. Grandpa Fox and Fox jr need me here for a couple more years.
    NHS in crisis since 1948? Even in 2010 after spending on it had doubled in real terms since 1997? Perhaps spending would have to double again to get it out of crisis.
    Far, far too much time has been spent 1974-2011 in re-organising the NHS. Those in managerial ...... I know, I know...... roles haven’t had the security to enable clinicians to get on with their real work.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited February 2017



    I doubt that it doubled in real terms or we'd be spending more than ~9% of GDP on it. Anyway, double a dysfunctional hierarchy is still a dysfunctional hierarchy. The history of it since 1979 seems to be roughly one major reorganisation for every SoS of Health.

    From £63bn in 97/8 to £137.2bn in 09/10, in 12/13 prices.

    https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chart/a-history-of-nhs-spending-in-the-uk
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920

    A question for our linguistic experts. Is it reasonable to refer to a female victor or should she be a victrix?

    Victor! We speak English, not Latin.
  • Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Gina Miller fighting for the House of Lords! Who'd have thunk it? She wants a vote in Parliament in 18 months on "all options."

    Gina Miller doesn't want us to leave the EU.
    Gina Miller doesn't respect the voters.
    We all knew that anyway. If it were that she genuinely wanted to see a role for Parliament, as she professed a few months ago, then fair enough. But that's not the case. Gina (and her wealthy backers) are determined to subvert the will of the people at any price. They're going to be a legal opposition to everything the government tries to do over Brexit.
    Her body language shows her total disrespect for those who voted to leave and sheer arrogance at wanting to stop the whole process. She always was a wolf in sheep's clothing trying to make out that Parliament is where the decision is to be taken in the knowledge that Parliament is full of EU toadies who will do anything to subvert the will of the people.

    No one has explained what would happen if Parliament voted down Theresa May's deal following A50. How could we even start to undo all the negotiations including new legislation on work visas and meekly ask the EU, please can we come back. Complete nonsense
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/yougov/status/835781802224668672

    Look at that LD surge! :smiley:
    And if that poll yesterday is correct, even that is a fake stupefied, with over half saying they'll go labour when they are led by someone other than corbyn.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited February 2017

    Mr. kle4, are you saying Corbyn is not a modern day Cnut?

    Even he knew he couldn't turn back the tides, but his lackeys were too toadying or stupid to realise it.

    In all seriousness, sure few people will see he's said this and it won't change anyone's opinion, but who is his speechwriter and did they not think it a bad idea to describe Tory support as a tide, and a rising one at that given it needs stopping, the thing you famously cannot turn back?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited February 2017
    RobD said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. .
    Of all the Health Ministers that I have worked under, the only one who I have truly loathed is Patricia Hewitt. The only one that I have liked was a junior minister in the coalition, Norman Lamb. The rest are much of a muchness in terms of uselessness and malignity.

    I agree that the NHS crisis has been going since 1948, and I suspect we will continue to muddle through, with cuts here, rationing there, hospitals downsized everywhere. Scandals will continue. I voted against Brexit but agree it must be implemented, and the same goes for the NHS. The people have voted against funding it better, when given the chance and that too must be respected. It is the voters who have to live with the consequences after all, and Hunt is delivering that.

    The other week I was headhunted for a job in NZ, in a delightful city that I know from when I worked there 25 years ago. I am sorely tempted, but it is a couple of years too early for me. Grandpa Fox and Fox jr need me here for a couple more years.
    NHS in crisis since 1948? Even in 2010 after spending on it had doubled in real terms since 1997? Perhaps spending would have to double again to get it out of crisis.
    It is not just about money, but other aspects of health care, though clearly money matters. I loathe Patricia Hewitt for her botched changes to junior doctors training in 2006-2007 that did lasting damage , to the point that newly appointed Consultants are running into clinical difficulties at an alarming rates, as well as creating many of the rota gaps that we now have to endure.

    At times, since 1948 the crisis has been about money, at times other things. I expect the crisis of staffing over the next decade is bigger than the funding problems. We simply cannot fill enough posts with enough competent staff, even when there are funds. Staffing shortages are why Whitehaven is losing its maternity and Paeds unit. I blame Hewitt for that, though no subsequent Health Minister is willing to sort it. Simpler to close units, as will also be the case in the Pennine Trust that I linked to.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    A word of advice to all our gentle readers. When watching rugby, never mix cider, white wine and brandy. No matter how much it seems a good idea at the time
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited February 2017

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Gina Miller fighting for the House of Lords! Who'd have thunk it? She wants a vote in Parliament in 18 months on "all options."

    Gina Miller doesn't want us to leave the EU.
    Gina Miller doesn't respect the voters.
    We all knew that anyway. If it were that she genuinely wanted to see a role for Parliament, as she professed a few months ago, then fair enough. But that's not the case. Gina (and her wealthy backers) are determined to subvert the will of the people at any price. They're going to be a legal opposition to everything the government tries to do over Brexit.
    Her body language shows her total disrespect for those who voted to leave and sheer arrogance at wanting to stop the whole process. She always was a wolf in sheep's clothing trying to make out that Parliament is where the decision is to be taken in the knowledge that Parliament is full of EU toadies who will do anything to subvert the will of the people.

    No one has explained what would happen if Parliament voted down Theresa May's deal following A50. How could we even start to undo all the negotiations including new legislation on work visas and meekly ask the EU, please can we come back. Complete nonsense
    If Parliament votes down the seal, then there's no deal and we leave to WTO terms.

    Never going to happen, there's absolutely no chance that the ECJ will rule that A50 is revocable and we can somehow stay in without joining the Euro, Shengen etc. In two years and a fortnight, we'll be out.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    One thing that doesn't get mentioned is that whilst Jeremy is undoubtedly crap, the working assumption is that his successor simply has to be so much better. That puts huge expectations on that person. Their great advantage is that they might at least get a hearing from those voters who just tune out to Corbyn. But any new leader will have to have something to say.

    The current focus is on Labour's woes being down to Corbyn; but I'd argue they are more that Labour doesn't have a coherent set of policies. Whoever is talking, they still have nothing to say. What if the new leader gets a hearing from the voters but they assess they are actually saying nothing.
  • malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    I still cannot get over, even by his standards, how stupid corbyns remarks about turning back the Tory tide were. Poor drafting of a speech, but did nobody comment that tides cannot be turned back?

    Is there anybody in Labour not stupid. The cretinous mayor of London called 50% of Scots racists yesterday , wrecked the Labour Conference ( for what it was with half empty hall ) and had to backtrack big time. Makes Corbyn look like a genius.
    Absolutely outrageous comments from those who cry rascist at every opportunity. Hope labour are obliterated in Scotland in May's elections
  • kle4 said:

    I still cannot get over, even by his standards, how stupid corbyns remarks about turning back the Tory tide were. Poor drafting of a speech, but did nobody comment that tides cannot be turned back?

    Calls to mind the following mixed metaphor: 'To take arms against a sea of troubles/ And by opposing them, end them'.

    If you're going to mix a metaphor you need to be Shakespeare to pull it off.
    Are you suggesting suicide as an option for Labour then?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Interesting. The poor woman's living in La La Land
  • kle4 said:

    I still cannot get over, even by his standards, how stupid corbyns remarks about turning back the Tory tide were. Poor drafting of a speech, but did nobody comment that tides cannot be turned back?

    Ah, but if you make your gesture at the right time, it gives every impression of turning back the tide!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    kle4 said:

    I still cannot get over, even by his standards, how stupid corbyns remarks about turning back the Tory tide were. Poor drafting of a speech, but did nobody comment that tides cannot be turned back?

    Calls to mind the following mixed metaphor: 'To take arms against a sea of troubles/ And by opposing them, end them'.

    If you're going to mix a metaphor you need to be Shakespeare to pull it off.
    He's torn between sticking to his core values and trying to electable at the same time and keeps ending up shooting himself in the foot in the confusion of trying to change between those two horses repeatedly midstream.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Isn't the point that you can't turn back the tide, but if you wait long enough the tide will turn?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    The Coral bet is a much better bet than the Health Secretary one. Hunt is an effective politician in the Cameron mode but does not get peoples backs up the same way. He is for me the #1 May under a bus candidate at the present time.

    'does not get peoples backs up the same way'. You're obviously not married to a medic (as I am). I have to leave the room when he appears on television to escape the tirade.
    Yes, but if it wasn't Jeremy Hunt it would be someone else that the health professions and the ;left were constantly furious with. The fury is so permanent; the threats of imminent catastrophe so constant, that they have just become part of the fabric of the existence of the NHS. Just as for healthcare free at the point of use we must put up with an element of queuing and rationing of services to push the most needy to the top of the list, so it seems we must put up with a constantly furious health profession and a background noise of discontent.

    I accept this is an outside view, and that this time it might be different. But there's an element of boy-who-cried-wolf about all of this.
    It's not an outside view. Ask anyone who has lived in another country. Almost every other country has better organised healthcare than the UK.

    AIUI (from afar) the current big issue is the interaction between health and social care leading to significant bed-blocking by the infirm elderly with nowhere else to go. This is primarily a local authority rather than an NHS problem, but its leading to inefficiencies in the NHS as expensive capital equipment and staff sit idle. No-one is repaired to think outside their very small and tightly defined box, and so we are where we are. Someone needs to bang heads together, rather than praising the NHS as if it were a god.

    As an example - rent out a large house for six months of winter, close to a hospital. Staff it with nurses from Manila on temp visas who live on site and earn minimum wage less an allowance for their accommodation. Transfer the bed-blockers there until they can go somewhere else, freeing up consultants, surgeons and operating theatres. This requires the NHS, LA, Home Office and planning authority to work together to arrange - something that's clearly not happening any time soon.
    In other words: stop closing beds in rehab wards and social care, staff them with immigrants.

    Why hasn't anyone thought of it before?
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