Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meet Ed Kinnock

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited August 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meet Ed Kinnock

According to the press, today we’re going to see the start of a new phase of the Tory campaign targeting Ed Miliband as weak by comparing him unfavourably with Neil Kinnock.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    First for insomniacs!
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited August 2013
    At least Kinnock had a tangible heartland and supporters, 15 years experience as an MP, and could make a gutsy, if long-winded, speech now and then.

    Ed Moribund is the sixth-former who's lost his text books, in comparison...
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Did the closing of the polling gap coincide with the recent anti-Ed media narrative? It looked more to me like the gap closed first, and if anything it's been opening up again a touch since the Ed Is Crap meme started getting a lot of play.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,576
    edited August 2013
    Ed Miliband will probably be about 10 years younger than the average voter at the next election, (by which I mean those who actually bother to vote as opposed to those entitled to).
  • Options
    Being boring is OK for a politician as long as they have trust and integrity. Being boring and weak and idea-less and untrustworthy is another matter.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,576
    edited August 2013
    John Major was able to generate charisma out of greyness, although it only worked on those he met personally. On TV he just seemed boring boring, so to speak.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited August 2013
    One of the dangers with polling analysis is to confuse correlation with causation. The fact that something has happened and that the polls have moved in a particular way does not prove that they are linked.

    However weak EdM might appear it does not appear to have impacted on Labour shares - it is as though this is priced into the voting intention ratings.

    Will people be voting for a party or a leader or is it a mix of the two? Add on to that the fact that their actual choice in their own constituencies is for an individual MP and it gets even more complicated.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Andy_JS said:

    John Major was able to generate charisma out of greyness, although it only worked on those he met personally. On TV he just seemed boring boring, so to speak.

    I can agree with this from personal experience. I was in a small-ish audience when he spoke at a private meeting whilst PM at the Holiday Inn outside Portsmouth. He dominated the room in a way which has left an impression on me to this day. He could have charmed the entire electorate if he had met them in small groups like that. The mass media did not suit the way he was at all.

  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    As West debated air strikes on Syria, where was peace envoy Blair? On a yacht in the Mediterranean

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2402354
  • Options
    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013
    BBC News (UK) ‏@BBCNews 7h

    Times: Blair joins clamour for attack on Syria
    pic.twitter.com/OWcYB7EEp2 #tomorrowspaperstoday #BBCpapers via @hendopolis
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,576
    "None of the experts saw India's debt bubble coming. Sound familiar?
    India's economic problems reflect a global boom-to-bust pattern. Why do policymakers act surprised?"

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/26/india-debt-bubble-boom-bust-pattern
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited August 2013
    While the summer has made only a small difference to Labour’s lead, it has been undoubtedly bad for Ed Miliband’s leadership ratings as well as his personal ratings

    This summer has seen a tirade of panic and criticism over the future of Ed Miliband and the Labour party. Almost daily, past Labour heavyweights, current MPs and commentators have given interviews and written articles on where Ed is going wrong, what Ed must do and how Labour are doomed. But has there really been any truth to the claims that public opinion is failing Mr Miliband and Labour – or has it all been speculation?

    YouGov has searched through its daily, weekly and monthly tracking questions to bring you the full guide to Ed Miliband’s summer of discontent.


    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/08/26/ed-milibands-summer-discontent/
  • Options
    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013
    Crosby is merely rerunning his 'Not Ken Again' campaign as has been pointed out many times before. Sadly for him while portraying little Ed as ineffectual and weak is believable and indeed done by enough of his own labour MPs - the 'Red' Ed stuff never resonated because the thought of little Ed as some kind of rabidly left wing Stalinesque figure is uproariously funny. The kind of nonsense only a joke like Dan Hodges would entertain.

    Won't stop Crosby trying though since apart from dog whistling it's basically all he knows how to do and CCHQ has to have him do something to justify his enormous pay. He'll keep bashing away at variations of 'Red' Ed just like Cammie kept bashing away on "the Big Society" and to as much effect.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,576
    "Lynton Crosby: David Cameron's Lizard of Oz

    The Tories' election strategist is a master of 'dog-whistle' politics, honed in his native Australia, but concerns about his lobbying business are putting the prime minister on the spot":

    http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2013/jul/21/lynton-crosby-cameron-lizard-oz
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    As a former hardline trade unionist surely Michael Gove is well aware that the trade unions are actually founders of the party and a major part of the movement rather than an entryist grouping?
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited August 2013
    Telegraph Reshuffle Rumours

    Esther McVey, a former GMTV presenter and junior minister at the Department for Work and Pensions, is likely to be promoted to more prominent Government role by David Cameron, the Daily Telegraph understands.

    Miss McVey, who has a seat in her native Merseyside, entered Parliament at the 2010 election.

    Nadhim Zahawi, the Tory MP for Stratford-on-Avon, is also believed to be heading for a ministerial post.

    Mr Zahawi is seen as a reliable media performer who can both defend the Government and successfully attack Labour.

    A number of other female MPs elected in 2010 are also tipped for elevation in the reshuffle.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10267035
  • Options
    @Financier - Can you refrain from copying and pasting entire articles from other websites.

    Thank you.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    @Financier

    Some really good names highlighted in that DT piece - Matt Hancock caught my eye a while ago along with Sajid Javid.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Who'd have thought mixing Ed with Kinnock would give you IDS
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Well blow me down :^ ) 5/5?

    Most hospitals claim they are serving five-star food to patients - but a survey reveals many patients disagree.

    Three in five hospitals give themselves the highest possible rating for the standard of their food, figures show.

    Out of 156 NHS hospital trusts in England 95 trusts rated the quality of the meals they served to patients as five-out-of-five.

    But the Campaign for Better Hospital Food (CBHF) said that the figures were a dramatic contrast to an independent Care Quality Commission survey.

    That survey showed that half of patients were dissatisfied with hospital food. http://news.sky.com/story/1133521/hospital-food-patients-reject-nhs-boasts
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited August 2013
    Interesting Interview with Nicola Benedetti


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/10266879
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,615
    3) It's childish and silly and will only appeal to your own supporters - like the Hague/Thatcher mock up Labour did. While the anoraks may dismiss Kinnock as a failure I suspect more than a few Labour supporters have fonder memories of him given who came after....
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    3) It's childish and silly and will only appeal to your own supporters - like the Hague/Thatcher mock up Labour did. While the anoraks may dismiss Kinnock as a failure I suspect more than a few Labour supporters have fonder memories of him given who came after....

    I agree - its very creepy mind.

    I've said on here many times that I've quite a soft spot for Kinnock - he spoke with great passion and conviction - he took on Militant and won. EdM is nowhere in comparison.
  • Options
    Eeeek! That's a creepy photo.
  • Options
    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    I always suspect these photo mock ups are rather childish but as I am not a Sun reader, cannot say whether they will go down well with them or not. I would rather have a normal picture of the Bland one and then a simple list of 10 things he has said and then failed to do/comments which were just total guff.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Now the badger cull has started - thought this may help to tell the other side of the story. And badgers are no more cuddly than being bitten by a large dog.

    http://www.tbfreeengland.co.uk/home/
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Sun Paywall - BTW - its only £1 to get behind it.

    "In a blistering attack designed to heap further pressure on the Opposition leader, Mr Gove will say: “The sad truth is in this critical test of leadership he has been uncertain, irresolute, weak.

    “To the question — who governs Labour? — his answer would appear to be the unions.” Comparing Ed to the 1980s Labour leader — after the Tories created an image of the men merged — Mr Gove will add: “The contrast with Neil Kinnock is striking and not at all flattering.

    “While Kinnock moved bravely and remorselessly to eradicate militants’ influence, Miliband has done nothing to stop the takeover of his party.” He will add: “Labour are sinking back into their pre-Blair position of living in the unions’ shadow. That’s because Ed Miliband owes his position as Labour leader to them.”
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2013
    Ed's collapsing credibility seems to be having no impact on the polls. But if he really does move into some sort of a crisis phase and a leadership challenge emerges - well then I suspect that the 'divided party' woes would kick in for Labour. Maybe this is what the Tories really want, a Labour leadership crisis - and one that would enforce a debate in public about where Labour is going, what it stands for, what policies to expect.

    Actually it would be good for the country if Labour started being clear what they would do. We know what Dave and George would do in future - more of the same and continued rebalancing of public sector vs private sector. Labour's a mystery, and a worrying one because we all assume they would let rip on the borrowing again. The real problem with Labour right now is not that they have indefensible policies but that they seem to have no policies.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I see someone has woken up the Labour Press Office.

    I'm being spammed every few mins with outrage/demands/hyperbole. If you'd like to follow them @LabourPress
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    These photos are silly.

    The comparison with Kinnock is silly too. There is also the small matter that Kinnock left power nearly 20 years ago. It is as daft as Labour going on and on about Maggie. For a significant and growing part of the electorate this is history, not modern studies.

    I also think it is unwise for the tories to get overly involved in the criticism of Ed when the blue on blue stuff is going so well. Leave them to it and concentrate on running the country.

    Miliband's biggest weaknesses are that he seems to have no clear ideas (at least none that he can translate into English) and when he does suggest something it rarely seems thought through. There is every chance he is going to make the same mistake at conference committing himself to building lots of houses (with whose money?) and taking over railway franchises. That is the time to have a go in a rather dismissive kind of way. Right now the cabinet should just leave him alone.
  • Options
    - "Meet Ed Kinnock"

    And just when you thought that Westminster politics could not get any more childish.
  • Options
    FINANCIER

    If you are going to post a link to a story, for copyright reasons please do not paste more than a couple of paragraphs of the said article.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Plato said:

    I see someone has woken up the Labour Press Office.

    I'm being spammed every few mins with outrage/demands/hyperbole. If you'd like to follow them @LabourPress

    You're being spammed, or you are following @LabourPress on Twitter? It's really not the same thing. Right, I'm off to look up what hyperbole means.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    DavidL said:

    These photos are silly.

    The comparison with Kinnock is silly too. There is also the small matter that Kinnock left power nearly 20 years ago. It is as daft as Labour going on and on about Maggie. For a significant and growing part of the electorate this is history, not modern studies.

    I also think it is unwise for the tories to get overly involved in the criticism of Ed when the blue on blue stuff is going so well. Leave them to it and concentrate on running the country.

    Miliband's biggest weaknesses are that he seems to have no clear ideas (at least none that he can translate into English) and when he does suggest something it rarely seems thought through. There is every chance he is going to make the same mistake at conference committing himself to building lots of houses (with whose money?) and taking over railway franchises. That is the time to have a go in a rather dismissive kind of way. Right now the cabinet should just leave him alone.

    I agree - what I think the Tories are trying to do is split Labour using Kinnock - he was the one who said on EdM's victory "We've got our Party back" meaning a Party of the Left not of Blairites.

    It's the older guard who are stirring the pot, and most likely to recall Kinnock. Personally, I'd let them get on with it - but Gove clearly feels its time to add his toe caps along with the lengthening cast list from Labour greybeards and MPs.
  • Options
    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    Andy_JS said:

    "None of the experts saw India's debt bubble coming. Sound familiar?
    India's economic problems reflect a global boom-to-bust pattern. Why do policymakers act surprised?"

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/26/india-debt-bubble-boom-bust-pattern

    The difference is the ruling Congress party has just brought in a Food Security Bill which heavily subsidises food(Rupees 1 for 5 kg of rice,1 rupee=1/100th of pound) to 65% of the population.India has poor estimated at 22% of population but they don`t number 65% of the population.This will increase the current account deficit massively over the coming years and has scared the investment horses away who are withdrawing their investments rather quickly!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The picture is just silly, and rather sinister. No need to kick him when he is down, he has plenty of "friends" to do that.
    DavidL said:

    These photos are silly.

    The comparison with Kinnock is silly too. There is also the small matter that Kinnock left power nearly 20 years ago. It is as daft as Labour going on and on about Maggie. For a significant and growing part of the electorate this is history, not modern studies.

    I also think it is unwise for the tories to get overly involved in the criticism of Ed when the blue on blue stuff is going so well. Leave them to it and concentrate on running the country.

    Miliband's biggest weaknesses are that he seems to have no clear ideas (at least none that he can translate into English) and when he does suggest something it rarely seems thought through. There is every chance he is going to make the same mistake at conference committing himself to building lots of houses (with whose money?) and taking over railway franchises. That is the time to have a go in a rather dismissive kind of way. Right now the cabinet should just leave him alone.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,925
    edited August 2013
    The Tories are not in control of events here. If EdM gets his way on reforming union links to Labour they lose their entire line of attack and EdM ends up looking very strong. If EdM fails he is a busted flush anyway. All this campaign demonstrates is the ongoing JCRisation of Westminster politics. Lots of clever dick points scoring that means very little to people who live in the real world.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    The Tories are not in control of events here. If EdM gets his way on reforming union links to Labour they lose their entire line of attack and EdM ends up looking very strong. If EdM fails he is a busted flush anyway. All this campaign demonstrates is the ongoing JCRisation of Westminster politics. Lots of clever dick points scoring that means very little to people who live in the real world.

    What is JCRisation?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    The Tories are not in control of events here. If EdM gets his way on reforming union links to Labour they lose their entire line of attack and EdM ends up looking very strong. If EdM fails he is a busted flush anyway. All this campaign demonstrates is the ongoing JCRisation of Westminster politics. Lots of clever dick points scoring that means very little to people who live in the real world.

    JCRisation?

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @MikeSmithson wrote :

    "However weak EdM might appear it does not appear to have impacted on Labour shares - it is as though this is priced into the voting intention ratings."

    The Ed is crap but Labour vote share is better might seem perplexing :

    For those of a sound mind and not attracted to the passing flicker of Ukip then Labour remain the only viable alternative to the Coalition. Previously the LibDems have been joint beneficiary of the anti Conservative vote. Accordingly the Labour vote share should be considerably inflated, although a poll lead of 3-6 points indicates not.

    Thus the big question is when Ed is so piss poor what is a sufficient mid term Labour lead to insulate them from the coming storm through to the May 2015 GE. Certainly 3-6 points is not enough. 12-15 points would seem appropriate and consequently Ed and Labour are falling short by some distance.
  • Options
    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Miliband might be irrelevant if people like Labour or dislike the Conservative and Lib Dems enough.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Paul Mason lets it all hang out. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/26/economic-recovery-patchy-left-wrong-ignore?commentpage=1

    "...There are three political implications. First, the argument that fiscal austerity would lead to deep recession or permanent stagnation has proved false. In part, this is because the austerity is back-loaded, with the heaviest cuts starting now. But the economy has also refused to behave as the doomiest predicted. People have clung to jobs, even at the cost of tolerating zero-hours contracts, wage cuts, pension raids and unpaid overtime..."
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Plato said:

    Now the badger cull has started - thought this may help to tell the other side of the story. And badgers are no more cuddly than being bitten by a large dog.

    http://www.tbfreeengland.co.uk/home/

    Owen Paterson impressive and determined on Sky News.

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Roger said:

    Who'd have thought mixing Ed with Kinnock would give you IDS

    LOL

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I have just watched the kinnock video above. Now that is real passion!

    The facing down of Militant, Scargill and Heffer is so vastly different to the stage managed confrrences today, with their anodyne messages and corporate trade stands. Now that was real politics!

    Kinnock was not a bad leader at all, and in 1992 I would have been happy for him to have been PM. He had a large Tory majority to overcome, and made a big dent in it. Winning in 1992 was not good for the Tories, who did really need a period in opposition to develop a post Thatcher philiosophy and direction. It would have likely had them back well before 2010.

    It was also the failure of Kinnock to win that led to the New Labour stage management and spin, in the short term a success, but in the longer term highly destructive of real political debate. It is just court politics now.
  • Options
    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013
    Tony Thomas ‏@GreeGreece 2h

    US Supported Iraq’s Use of Chemical Weapons, Even As It Inches to War With Syria on Lesser Allegations http://bit.ly/16HbMPg

    Gato Preto ‏@GatoPreto19 6h

    Kerry: Use of chemical weapons 'inexcusable' and 'undeniable' -US gave Saddam blessing to use toxins against Iranians http://rt.com/news/chemical-weapons-iran-iraq-980/#.UhvVkynNUmg.twitter

    Jeffrey Kaye ‏@jeff_kaye 14h

    Recent revelations pub. by @ForeignPolicy re US support for Iraq's use of chemical weapons, incl. sarin, means US implicated in war crimes


    Jeffrey Kaye ‏@jeff_kaye 14h

    US intel officials told Saddam location of Iranian troops "fully aware" Iraq wd attack w/chemical weapons, incl sarin http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he_gassed_iran
    Oh dear.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    These photos are silly.

    The comparison with Kinnock is silly too. There is also the small matter that Kinnock left power nearly 20 years ago. It is as daft as Labour going on and on about Maggie. For a significant and growing part of the electorate this is history, not modern studies.

    Dafter, in fact, since there are two good reasons for at least mentioning Maggie from time to time, even if going on and on about her is counterproductive.

    The first is to remind some voters in some parts of the country why they stopped voting Conservative. This is easiest to demonstrate in Scotland because its figures are reported separately. Before Thatcher, the country would return 20-odd Conservative MPs. For the last three elections, only one. In 1997, none at all. She is the reason David Cameron embarked on his detoxification strategy.

    The second reason is squarely aimed at Conservative supporters and, indeed, members. It is to remind them that many of the changes they detest, particularly but not only on Europe and education, and for which they blame Labour, were actually made by Mrs Thatcher.

    But in general you are right to remind us that anyone with an adult memory of Mrs Thatcher's time in office is at least in their 40s, while even fewer can recall Mr Kinnock's premiership.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JackW said:

    Plato said:

    Now the badger cull has started - thought this may help to tell the other side of the story. And badgers are no more cuddly than being bitten by a large dog.

    http://www.tbfreeengland.co.uk/home/

    Owen Paterson impressive and determined on Sky News.

    The misplaced sentimentality here is frankly bizarre - badgers are the size of toddlers. They aren't like some Rupert the Bear character and allowing any animal to spread TB and die a horrible death from it - and cull almost 200 000 cattle is just wrong.

    I put down several of my beloved cats when they contracted FLV from a supposedly healthy pedigree cat - a disease that can't be cured or virus shedding stopped. In kittens it causes eye ulcers and blindness. If I had the same mentality as the badger huggers - there could be hundreds of cases of the vile disease in our local cat population.
  • Options
    Junior Common Room-isation.

    Silly university political games played by people who have very little idea of the real world.
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited August 2013
    I thought we were leaving the silly season not starting it. This poster is simply ridiculous: fortunately no one will notice it.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Junior Common Room-isation.

    Silly university political games played by people who have very little idea of the real world.

    I think you just demonstrated the ultimate in anoraky acronyms there - never heard of it before.
  • Options
    That Kinnock speech was just fantastic. For me it was the moment when I first thought there was a chance Labour could recover from the Bennite madness. There was still a long path to tread, but Kinnock started something that day. Inspirational and historical. It's such a shame he became what he did.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Plato said:

    JackW said:

    Plato said:

    Now the badger cull has started - thought this may help to tell the other side of the story. And badgers are no more cuddly than being bitten by a large dog.

    http://www.tbfreeengland.co.uk/home/

    Owen Paterson impressive and determined on Sky News.

    The misplaced sentimentality here is frankly bizarre - badgers are the size of toddlers. They aren't like some Rupert the Bear character and allowing any animal to spread TB and die a horrible death from it - and cull almost 200 000 cattle is just wrong.

    I put down several of my beloved cats when they contracted FLV from a supposedly healthy pedigree cat - a disease that can't be cured or virus shedding stopped. In kittens it causes eye ulcers and blindness. If I had the same mentality as the badger huggers - there could be hundreds of cases of the vile disease in our local cat population.
    I've some misgivings about the cull but in the final analysis difficult decisions are a price of government. The cull is sadly the correct decision.

  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Ed as Michael Foot...

    The trouble with Ed is that he is seen as a figure of fun.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    JohnO said:

    I thought we were leaving the silly season not starting it. This poster is simply ridiculous: fortunately no one will notice it.

    With your expeditions in mind I think a mock up of you and Christopher Columbus might be in order ?!?

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JackW said:

    Plato said:

    JackW said:

    Plato said:

    Now the badger cull has started - thought this may help to tell the other side of the story. And badgers are no more cuddly than being bitten by a large dog.

    http://www.tbfreeengland.co.uk/home/

    Owen Paterson impressive and determined on Sky News.

    The misplaced sentimentality here is frankly bizarre - badgers are the size of toddlers. They aren't like some Rupert the Bear character and allowing any animal to spread TB and die a horrible death from it - and cull almost 200 000 cattle is just wrong.

    I put down several of my beloved cats when they contracted FLV from a supposedly healthy pedigree cat - a disease that can't be cured or virus shedding stopped. In kittens it causes eye ulcers and blindness. If I had the same mentality as the badger huggers - there could be hundreds of cases of the vile disease in our local cat population.
    I've some misgivings about the cull but in the final analysis difficult decisions are a price of government. The cull is sadly the correct decision.

    A similar cull in NZ reduced TB infections by 94%. It's not perfect and some healthy animals will be caught in the net. But if we were talking about rats not Rupert the Bear, there would be no controversy.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I didn't realize this was from Crosby. It so poor it invites discussion on whether the Tories should be paying nearly a £million a year for work of that quality

    What's more they're so undamaging to Ed that he can afford to lead the ridicule himself without fear of giving legs to anything other than the ineptness of the poster's creator

    (Think 'Ferrero Ambassador'.....)
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    JackW said:

    JohnO said:

    I thought we were leaving the silly season not starting it. This poster is simply ridiculous: fortunately no one will notice it.

    With your expeditions in mind I think a mock up of you and Christopher Columbus might be in order ?!?

    Silly old Christopher - when he discovered Hersham, he thought it was Salford.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It is easier to recover from unpopularity than from being a figure of fun, which tends to be terminal.


    dr_spyn said:

    Ed as Michael Foot...

    The trouble with Ed is that he is seen as a figure of fun.

  • Options
    Plato said:

    Junior Common Room-isation.

    Silly university political games played by people who have very little idea of the real world.

    I think you just demonstrated the ultimate in anoraky acronyms there - never heard of it before.

    I made it up. Let's see if it enters the lexicon!!

    The real point here is how juvenile political debate has become. I blame Tweets, the 24 hour news cycle and our current clique of political leaders who cut their teeth at university and have never operated in the real world

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Badgers in New Zealand? Or were they culling something else?
    Plato said:

    JackW said:

    Plato said:

    JackW said:

    Plato said:

    Now the badger cull has started - thought this may help to tell the other side of the story. And badgers are no more cuddly than being bitten by a large dog.

    http://www.tbfreeengland.co.uk/home/

    Owen Paterson impressive and determined on Sky News.

    The misplaced sentimentality here is frankly bizarre - badgers are the size of toddlers. They aren't like some Rupert the Bear character and allowing any animal to spread TB and die a horrible death from it - and cull almost 200 000 cattle is just wrong.

    I put down several of my beloved cats when they contracted FLV from a supposedly healthy pedigree cat - a disease that can't be cured or virus shedding stopped. In kittens it causes eye ulcers and blindness. If I had the same mentality as the badger huggers - there could be hundreds of cases of the vile disease in our local cat population.
    I've some misgivings about the cull but in the final analysis difficult decisions are a price of government. The cull is sadly the correct decision.

    A similar cull in NZ reduced TB infections by 94%. It's not perfect and some healthy animals will be caught in the net. But if we were talking about rats not Rupert the Bear, there would be no controversy.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,975
    Roger said:

    I didn't realize this was from Crosby. It so poor it invites discussion on whether the Tories should be paying nearly a £million a year for work of that quality

    What's more they're so undamaging to Ed that he can afford to lead the ridicule himself without fear of giving legs to anything other than the ineptness of the poster's creator

    (Think 'Ferrero Ambassador'.....)

    Aren't you mixing up Crosby with Messina?
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    dr_spyn said:

    Ed as Michael Foot...

    The trouble with Ed is that he is seen as a figure of fun.

    I don't think Ed is quite there yet but the danger for Labour is that something of the "Lembit Syndrome" begins to attach itself to Ed - Formerly many voters laughed with Lembit but then they began to laugh at Lembit - terminal for a politician.

  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    OK, I don't vote Conservative and I've always had a soft spot for Kinnock, because despite his faults, he seemed sincere.

    But this is very strange tactics from the Conservatives. Yes, Ed is a dud but he can't get much worse in the eyes of most voters anyway. The Tories' best tactic was to let him work for them, not remind voters of Kinnock's finest hour.

    Labour will now be tempted to stage manage, probably at Conference, a scenario where Ed sticks it to the Union bosses and they back down. And to mass plaudits from the assembled MPs and press.


  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    JohnO said:

    JackW said:

    JohnO said:

    I thought we were leaving the silly season not starting it. This poster is simply ridiculous: fortunately no one will notice it.

    With your expeditions in mind I think a mock up of you and Christopher Columbus might be in order ?!?

    Silly old Christopher - when he discovered Hersham, he thought it was Salford.
    Salford - Was he looking for the BBC - Britain Before Columbus ??

  • Options
    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak 15h

    Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg cancels planned trip to Afghanistan to attend national security council meeting on situation in Syria
    Everyone breathes a sigh of relief as Clegg sets out the lib dem position. Or not. Who can say?
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Badgers in New Zealand? Or were they culling something else?

    Brush-tailed possums.

    www.bovinetb.info/newzealand.php

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Jessop

    "Aren't you mixing up Crosby with Messina?"

    I don't think so. One's in Sicily the other Liverpool.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    James Vincent @BBCJamesVincent
    1200 staff at #Sheffield Council have been on long term sick in the last year. Thats over 20% of total staff. @BBCSheffield

    Do they all have Bovine TB?!
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:

    Junior Common Room-isation.

    Silly university political games played by people who have very little idea of the real world.

    I think you just demonstrated the ultimate in anoraky acronyms there - never heard of it before.
    @Plato

    JCR = Junior Common Room (Undergraduates)
    MCR= Middle Common Room (Postgraduates)
    SCR = Senior Common Room (Academics)

    Mainly came out of/used by Collegiate Universities and those with Halls of Residence and can get offices like President of JCR etc. Places where 'like people' can meet informally.

    British Universities that have them include: Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, Bristol, Nottingham, Kent, Exeter, Lancaster, Leicester, Reading, Southampton, York & St. Andrews.

    N America includes: Harvard and McGill and quite a few in Australia.

  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    JackW said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Ed as Michael Foot...

    The trouble with Ed is that he is seen as a figure of fun.

    I don't think Ed is quite there yet but the danger for Labour is that something of the "Lembit Syndrome" begins to attach itself to Ed - Formerly many voters laughed with Lembit but then they began to laugh at Lembit - terminal for a politician.

    "Lembit Syndrome"

    Er, I’m no great fan of Ed, but to equate him to the ridiculous Mr Opik is a little harsh imho.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Is Ed 'alright' ?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited August 2013
    Plato said:

    James Vincent @BBCJamesVincent
    1200 staff at #Sheffield Council have been on long term sick in the last year. Thats over 20% of total staff. @BBCSheffield

    Do they all have Bovine TB?!

    1200 o_O ?! 20% ?? Wait thats BBC ?!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The Unions are not the bogeymen they once were. The seventies industrial chaos and miners strike were 30 years ago. Facing down the unions would not have the same significance now.

    I was discussing this with one of our admin clerks at the hospital last week. Her union was completely spineless and unhelpful when she was threatened with redundancy or reduced conditions last year, so she quit the union. Unions are dying, even in the public sector. Their membership is dropping like the membership of all political parties.



    s
    CD13 said:


    OK, I don't vote Conservative and I've always had a soft spot for Kinnock, because despite his faults, he seemed sincere.

    But this is very strange tactics from the Conservatives. Yes, Ed is a dud but he can't get much worse in the eyes of most voters anyway. The Tories' best tactic was to let him work for them, not remind voters of Kinnock's finest hour.

    Labour will now be tempted to stage manage, probably at Conference, a scenario where Ed sticks it to the Union bosses and they back down. And to mass plaudits from the assembled MPs and press.


  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    edited August 2013
    @JackW the titles for videos on Youtube which follow Ed M aren't complementary.

    ed miliband I
    ed mi Ii band these strikes are wrong
    ed miliband bastard
    ed mib band repeats himself
    ed miliband vs david cameron
    ed mi Ii band funny
    ed miliband speech
    ed miliband interview
    ed miliband vs david cameron 2013
    ed miliband egged
    ed miliband owned


  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Plato, surely you're not suggesting a cull?

    Mr. Foxinsox, I largely agree. However, unions do seem to focus on the public sector, and the divide in public/private pensions may play into this. If Miliband's going on the cost of living then he may well have to offer above inflation pay rises for the public sector, which would not sit well with those who are not employed by the state.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited August 2013
    What nobody has been able to answer is which segment of those voters currently saying Labour are going to be turned by all of this? Those who voted Labour at GE2010? No. The 2010 LDs now in the Labour camp? Maybe a few on the margins but Labour will still retain the lion's share in the CON-LAB marginals.

    With that scenario and the efficient way we know the Labour votes are distributed make it very tough for the Tories who are also going to struggle to take LD seats where the incumbent is standing again.

  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    JackW said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Ed as Michael Foot...

    The trouble with Ed is that he is seen as a figure of fun.

    I don't think Ed is quite there yet but the danger for Labour is that something of the "Lembit Syndrome" begins to attach itself to Ed - Formerly many voters laughed with Lembit but then they began to laugh at Lembit - terminal for a politician.

    "Lembit Syndrome"

    Er, I’m no great fan of Ed, but to equate him to the ridiculous Mr Opik is a little harsh imho.
    Agree, but Lembit lost his seat due to his relationship antics. - not sure if Ed is there yet.

    Lembit's fatal mistake was to ditch Sian Lloyd (the Welsh weather presenter) and doing that in a (small c) conservative part of Wales was fatal. For her it must have been a blessed escape.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Possums are generally recognised as a feral introduced species in NZ, destructive of native forests as well as their role in TB. NZ greens would be keen to exterminate them rather than stand up to defend them.

    The head of the NFU gave an impassioned defence of the cull on Any Questions last Friday. With the absence of the usual suspects it was an interesting change.
    GeoffM said:

    Badgers in New Zealand? Or were they culling something else?

    Brush-tailed possums.

    www.bovinetb.info/newzealand.php

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Ed as Michael Foot...

    The trouble with Ed is that he is seen as a figure of fun.

    I don't think Ed is quite there yet but the danger for Labour is that something of the "Lembit Syndrome" begins to attach itself to Ed - Formerly many voters laughed with Lembit but then they began to laugh at Lembit - terminal for a politician.

    "Lembit Syndrome"

    Er, I’m no great fan of Ed, but to equate him to the ridiculous Mr Opik is a little harsh imho.
    I agree .... at the moment.

    Presently voters, even Labour voters, don't rate Ed - simply not up to the job. However if Ed becomes a bigger figure of fun then Labour will be looking over the cliff !!

  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Photo looks like Scargill or Bernie Winters.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Just to add to the pot

    " Researchers believe that hedgehog numbers are falling because the booming badger population is eating them when food becomes scarce.

    The decline is also being explained by the fact that badgers, whose numbers have increased in recent years since farmers were banned from culling them in the 1990s, compete for the same kind of food as hedgehogs. The findings come in a study which shows a close geographical link between the decline of hedgehogs and the presence of badgers.

    Researcher Dr Anouschka Hof, of Royal Holloway University of London, estimates there are about a million hedgehogs in Britain. However, hedgehog numbers are falling rapidly, especially in the south and south west of England, and in urban areas. Dr Hof told the Daily Mail: "They have been declining over the last decade, especially in areas where there are a lot of badgers.

    "In urban areas like Greater London the declines have been really bad. Hedgehogs could be found in the Royal Parks 20 years ago. Now there are none. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/6216749/Hedgehogs-in-decline-because-badgers-are-eating-them.html

    We used to have hundreds of hedgehogs here and few roadkill badgers - now its the complete opposite - roadkill badgers are every few miles and I haven't seen a squashed hedgehog in months.
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Unions are dying, even in the public sector. Their membership is dropping like the membership of all political parties.

    Trade union membership grew last year.
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Plato, surely you're not suggesting a cull?

    Mr. Foxinsox, I largely agree. However, unions do seem to focus on the public sector, and the divide in public/private pensions may play into this. If Miliband's going on the cost of living then he may well have to offer above inflation pay rises for the public sector, which would not sit well with those who are not employed by the state.

    Mr Dancer

    Unless Ed financed salary increases by reducing pension liabilities (which I do not think he will do), then this could force more of the public sector with limited budgets to contract out more of their work.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Possums are generally recognised as a feral introduced species in NZ, destructive of native forests as well as their role in TB. NZ greens would be keen to exterminate them rather than stand up to defend them.

    The head of the NFU gave an impassioned defence of the cull on Any Questions last Friday. With the absence of the usual suspects it was an interesting change.

    GeoffM said:

    Badgers in New Zealand? Or were they culling something else?

    Brush-tailed possums.

    www.bovinetb.info/newzealand.php

    I thought possums were rather cute looking - like koalas - and then I read up a little. I wouldn't want one in the house. Racoons are another great soft toy but rabies? No thanks. Or mink? Definitely not.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    What nobody has been able to answer is which segment of those voters currently saying Labour are going to be turned by all of this? Those who voted Labour at GE2010? No. The 2010 LDs now in the Labour camp? Maybe a few on the margins but Labour will still retain the lion's share in the CON-LAB marginals.

    With that scenario and the efficient way we know the Labour votes are distributed make it very tough for the Tories who are also going to struggle to take LD seats where the incumbent is standing again.

    But will reluctant Labour voters who don't rate Ed pitch up to vote ? .... And will Coalition voters hit Labour with a double whammy of differential turnout ??

    IMO they will. Labour's advantage with FPTP will be considerably negated and Ed's chance of moving into No 10 will evaporate just as Kinnock's melted away in 1992.

    Ed Kinnock is not so odd as it may look.

  • Options

    What nobody has been able to answer is which segment of those voters currently saying Labour are going to be turned by all of this? Those who voted Labour at GE2010? No. The 2010 LDs now in the Labour camp? Maybe a few on the margins but Labour will still retain the lion's share in the CON-LAB marginals.

    With that scenario and the efficient way we know the Labour votes are distributed make it very tough for the Tories who are also going to struggle to take LD seats where the incumbent is standing again.

    Knocking copy can work. But it is very tough to get it right.

    The tories have done as destructive a job as they can on UKIP, and UKIP are still far from being dead in the water.

    It should be possible to do an effective 'knocking job' on EM---even his friends admit that he hasn't been very impressive. However, it looks daft to start by comparing him to Kinnock. I don't know what Kinnock got right or wrong; for sure, the man-in-the-street doesn't either. A silly 'shorthand'.

    Right strategy, wrong tactics?



  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    Kinnock saved the Labour Party from becoming a Respect like irrelevance. When he became leader in 1983, there was a real danger that the SDP would establish itself as the party of the centre-left. So, in laying the foundations for the party's recovery from its 1983 nadir, he's more important even than Blair.
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited August 2013

    What nobody has been able to answer is which segment of those voters currently saying Labour are going to be turned by all of this? Those who voted Labour at GE2010? No. The 2010 LDs now in the Labour camp? Maybe a few on the margins but Labour will still retain the lion's share in the CON-LAB marginals.

    With that scenario and the efficient way we know the Labour votes are distributed make it very tough for the Tories who are also going to struggle to take LD seats where the incumbent is standing again.

    Mike

    Agree, at present this is the number one conundrum. However, it is highly possible that Labour voters are prepared to swallow EdM's deficiencies just to be back in power - what they (and the Unions) would do then is more speculative.

    I presume that they want Labour back in power in order to protect their preferential (compared to private sector) incomes and pensions or benefits.

    However, Ed could surprise them and still continue to drive down the deficit and try to reduce the debt - pressure from the global economy may not give him much choice.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I have just watched the kinnock video above. Now that is real passion!

    The facing down of Militant, Scargill and Heffer is so vastly different to the stage managed confrrences today, with their anodyne messages and corporate trade stands. Now that was real politics!

    Politicians used to learn their craft making speeches to mass meetings. It is significant that John Major's finest hour came on his soap box. These days, many politicians seem barely able to make a speech at all, and stumble half-heartedly through a list of dull platitudes leavened only by a few jokes, which give an air of rehearsal night for a new stand-up comedian.

    It is noticeable in America how much some candidates -- Mrs Clinton, for instance -- improve through the primaries.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Dr Fox,

    I agree that unions are not the big beasts of thirty years ago, but they can still serve as suitable bogeymen if labour set it up right.

    It's not exactly George slaying the dragon, but the fact that Ed has a chance to show leadership will help his cause.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Kinnock saved the Labour Party from becoming a Respect like irrelevance. When he became leader in 1983, there was a real danger that the SDP would establish itself as the party of the centre-left. So, in laying the foundations for the party's recovery from its 1983 nadir, he's more important even than Blair.

    Agreed - the Loonies had taken over the asylum. Kinnock stood against the tide and won. I think he gets a lot of unfair knocking. That he's established an EU Dynasty of his own is another matter.
  • Options

    What nobody has been able to answer is which segment of those voters currently saying Labour are going to be turned by all of this? Those who voted Labour at GE2010? No. The 2010 LDs now in the Labour camp? Maybe a few on the margins but Labour will still retain the lion's share in the CON-LAB marginals.

    With that scenario and the efficient way we know the Labour votes are distributed make it very tough for the Tories who are also going to struggle to take LD seats where the incumbent is standing again.

    The campaign - if that is the right word - is probably more for UKIP/Tory switchers. They are in an older age group generally, so will remember "the Welsh windbag" and are generally anti-Labour. The Tories need them back and are going to try to do so in two ways: highlighting anti-immigrant, anti-welfare and anti-EU credentials; and saying don't vote UKIP and let Labour back in. Crosby is not interested in engaging with Labour/LD leaners, his focus is to win from the right. His challenge is that unlike in London and Australia the GE in 2015 will be fought under FPTP. If his strategy fails and UKIPers do not return it is likely to lead to a greater Labour victory than otherwise would have been the case, as in order to attract the UKIP vote the Tories will inevitably harden the Labour/LD vote.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,975
    Plato said:

    Possums are generally recognised as a feral introduced species in NZ, destructive of native forests as well as their role in TB. NZ greens would be keen to exterminate them rather than stand up to defend them.

    The head of the NFU gave an impassioned defence of the cull on Any Questions last Friday. With the absence of the usual suspects it was an interesting change.

    GeoffM said:

    Badgers in New Zealand? Or were they culling something else?

    Brush-tailed possums.

    www.bovinetb.info/newzealand.php

    I thought possums were rather cute looking - like koalas - and then I read up a little. I wouldn't want one in the house. Racoons are another great soft toy but rabies? No thanks. Or mink? Definitely not.
    Years ago I was on the phone to my ex in Australia when there was a loud bang. She started laughing as she told me that another possum had just fallen off the telephone wire onto the roof above her room. It was a regular occurrence; they used the lines to get between the houses without being interfered with by traffic, cats or dogs.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    Possums are generally recognised as a feral introduced species in NZ, destructive of native forests as well as their role in TB. NZ greens would be keen to exterminate them rather than stand up to defend them.

    The head of the NFU gave an impassioned defence of the cull on Any Questions last Friday. With the absence of the usual suspects it was an interesting change.

    GeoffM said:

    Badgers in New Zealand? Or were they culling something else?

    Brush-tailed possums.

    www.bovinetb.info/newzealand.php

    I thought possums were rather cute looking - like koalas - and then I read up a little. I wouldn't want one in the house. Racoons are another great soft toy but rabies? No thanks. Or mink? Definitely not.
    Years ago I was on the phone to my ex in Australia when there was a loud bang. She started laughing as she told me that another possum had just fallen off the telephone wire onto the roof above her room. It was a regular occurrence; they used the lines to get between the houses without being interfered with by traffic, cats or dogs.
    When I lived in Croydon on a hideous set-square designed terraced estate - we found a rat in the loft. We poisoned it and mentioned it to a neighbour - they claimed they'd had *squirrels* in theirs.

    Yeah - right. Squirrels...
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    edited August 2013
    Mr. Observer, that's an astute point regarding UKIP.

    On the badger cull: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23845851

    I found this interesting.

    "Whether domestic or wild, they have a right to live as much as we do," she [an activist] said.

    I can appreciate that sentiment. However, haven't we extirpated every natural predator of the badger (wolves spring to mind, perhaps bears likewise)? It isn't natural to drive a species to extinction, but if we annihilate another species with which it has a close relationship (whether a hunter-prey or symbiotic one) then we've already substantially affected how that species lives. I don't accept that it's legitimate to intervene to give a species an unfair advantage, anymore than it's ok to exterminate a whole species on a whim.

    If badgers are protected and have no natural predators then they'll simply see a population explosion. As Miss Plato pointed out below, this will be bad for competitor species, and may see some population crashes once they start eating more food than can be sustained by the environment.

    This reminds me a bit of the deer story from a few months ago. Reintroducing wolves would seem like the low maintenance, 'natural' option. However, I doubt anyone will do it. If a single person gets injured or killed by a wolf then the politician responsible will be lynched.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    Another point is that the picture and the message don't fit. The message is "Ed is weak, unlike that fine fellow Kinnock". The picture says "Ed is like that fellow Kinnock whom if you're over 40 you may remember not voting for". It's the same problem as when Cameron says Ed is feeble and Boris says Ed is like Stalin. If they want to do this stuff (and I'm dubious whether it works) they need to make up their minds.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    JackW said:

    What nobody has been able to answer is which segment of those voters currently saying Labour are going to be turned by all of this? Those who voted Labour at GE2010? No. The 2010 LDs now in the Labour camp? Maybe a few on the margins but Labour will still retain the lion's share in the CON-LAB marginals.

    With that scenario and the efficient way we know the Labour votes are distributed make it very tough for the Tories who are also going to struggle to take LD seats where the incumbent is standing again.

    But will reluctant Labour voters who don't rate Ed pitch up to vote ? .... And will Coalition voters hit Labour with a double whammy of differential turnout ??

    IMO they will. Labour's advantage with FPTP will be considerably negated and Ed's chance of moving into No 10 will evaporate just as Kinnock's melted away in 1992.

    Ed Kinnock is not so odd as it may look.

    Remember that Labour has the better ground machine in the marginals and will get its vote out there if not so much elsewhere.

    BTW Remember our little spat at GE2010 over Watford. You said LD - I said CON. Now I'm backing the yellows to do it at GE2015. I got on at 6/1 which has come in a fair bit since.

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013

    Mr. Observer, that's an astute point regarding UKIP.

    On the badger cull: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23845851

    snip

    This reminds me a bit of the deer story from a few months ago. Reintroducing wolves would seem like the low maintenance, 'natural' option. However, I doubt anyone will do it. If a single person gets injured or killed by a wolf then the politician responsible will be lynched.

    Brian May - a most hysterical badger hugger culled deer on his estate.

    BAMBI!!!!!
This discussion has been closed.