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SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How the papers are covering Margaret Thatcher

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    The Robin Day interview with Thatcher on BBC Parliament is compulsive viewing.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sadly, the Racing Post seem to have overlooked the equine aspects of the Thatcher legacy.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Racing Post looks interesting.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Glad to say PB (with the exception of SeanT) behaved itself. As did Britain by and large.

    We have the whole of history to debate her politics and policies. But for now we should wish her family the best and let her be.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'm anxiously awaiting the Express's headline. Will it be "Diana and Maggie: the untold story"?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    "How the papers are covering Margaret Thatcher"

    I'll hazard a guess, extensively?

    Who will have the biggest coverage?
    This is a battle Dacre, Desmond, Rupert and the Barclays will not want to lose.
    Only one can win. ;)
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    IoS

    Of course people have "behaved themselves". There is nothing to celebrate.

    A frail old lady has died, that's sad.

    Thatcher's evil legacy will not be undone by her death, that's even more sad.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    antifrank said:

    I'm anxiously awaiting the Express's headline. Will it be "Diana and Maggie: the untold story"?

    No it will be: "Mrs Thatcher Dead -House prices to boom"

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @olifranklin: Just talked to a bunch drinking at the Thatcher party in Brixton. Most not born while she was in power, "just wanted an excuse to party."

    @olifranklin: Asked it they would tell their kids that they celebrate when an old woman had a stroke. I think it killed the mood. #thatcher
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    FPT:

    First of all, my condolences to the Thatcher family.

    With the passage of time, I look on things very differently in some ways now from how I viewed things in their immediate aftermath. But one thing that will never be denied will be the colossal impact she had and how many seemingly insurmountable barriers she overcame. One truly remarkable woman.

    One thing I'm very glad which has come out of today is the difference between her legend and the reality. So many forget the pragmatism of the early years - beating a tactical retreat from taking on the miners in 1981, the main trade union legislation only being post 1983, and not least the moderate nature of the 1979 manifesto itself. And I'm also glad that the whole 'rolling back the frontiers of the state' legend has had the record put straight. Yes public spending as a % of the economy fell slightly over the 1979-1990 period, but it was hardly dramatic!

    On my specialist subject - economics, here too the record is fascinating and often mis-portrayed, both from critical and praiseworthy polemics. For instance, the bleak unemployment figures of the early 1980's were exacerbated by the demographics of the birth rate peaking in the early to mid-1960's. Sterling's rise at the time, and implementing the Clegg public sector pay awards, bequeathed by the Callaghan government didn't help matters either. These days though, I do reflect that some of the downsides of the economic record - the growing inequality between rich and poor, the increasing availability of credit and debt - were the early warning signs for the great problems that afflict our economy today. And (arguably) I believe much of that would have happened anyway, irrespective of who was in power.

    I still don't think many of the changes - overhaul of the trade unions, economic reform, Ireland etc could have been done without much of the strife involved, plus the small matter of the Falklands - after the setbacks of the the 1970's from the heady days of the 1960's, it simply was never going to be like that. There are so many counterfactuals too - what if Leon Brittan hadn't resigned over Westland, and Kinnock not made a rambling speech, self acknowledged as the greatest mistake of his 9 years? The Falklands? Brighton? The Miners Strike? Things with a little nudge here and there, could easily have been very different indeed.

    And we saw her human side too - yes the great 'successes' of the early years went to her head - I could say that about many people, especially in sport about that human frailty. Like Nick Palmer said earlier today, its a shame she had nothing outside of politics to consume her later years post November 1990. Did she have one truly happy day in the last 22 and a bit years?

    I also found her 'all the solutions come from the English speaking peoples' speech very sad indeed, even allowing for WW2 coming in her teenage years. On Europe, it still seems out of character for her, that she signed the European Single Act without realising the implications, and joining the ERM in October 1990 ( I thought that was late 1989 before looking it up!) in retrospect was confirmation of being worn down by senior cabinet colleagues. To this day, I still find it amazing that she espoused the poll tax, which as I think Douglas Hurd aptly put it, 'went against all her principles'.

    Finally I'm glad there won't be a state funeral, even over 22 years later, that would have been far too devisive.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Tim Bale, LSE, on Thatcher's strengths & weaknesses:

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/archives/32521
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    Strange to think that before twitter the 'excitables' working themselves into a sweaty frenzied outrage might have had to make up their own anecdotes.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Enjoyed watching this series in the past about Mrs T:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLt56gDzCLg

    Found a lot of the comments by Shirley WIlliams particularly perceptive. Ken Clarke is also good value in parts.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Mick_Pork said:

    Strange to think that before twitter the 'excitables' working themselves into a sweaty frenzied outrage might have had to have make up their own anecdotes.

    Yeah you get the sense the Outrage Tourists have been waiting for this day for a long time, and are slightly disappointed.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited April 2013
    antifrank said:

    I'm anxiously awaiting the Express's headline. Will it be "Diana and Maggie: the untold story"?

    I thought you were doing us a favour and feckin-orf for a month-or-so? Trust a lawyer to prove the value of his word.

    :asshat-watch:
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    I'm anxiously awaiting the Express's headline. Will it be "Diana and Maggie: the untold story"?

    I thought you were doing us a favour a feckin-orf for a month-or-so? Trust a lawyer to prove the value of his word.

    :asshat-watch:
    I said I was going to hibernate for a month. Like any good lawyer, I can multitask.
  • Metro might be a rubbish rag, but I like their Maggie quote on the front page - not one I've seen before :

    "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." 'Nuff said.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @lancashire_tory The Metro also has the best and most ambiguous picture of Margaret Thatcher so far.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Tory, that's a rather nice quote.

    I may have to steal it... [Journey to Altmortis starts with a quote, and I was wondering about doing the same for a later book].
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    hunchman said:

    ...the pragmatism of the early years - beating a tactical retreat from taking on the miners in 1981, the main trade union legislation only being post 1983, and not least the moderate nature of the 1979 manifesto itself.

    "Just in Time" by John Hoskyns is very good on the preparation Team Thatcher did for their policies.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Time-Inside-Thatcher-Revolution/dp/1854107089/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365454176&sr=8-1&keywords=just+in+time+hoskyns
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    POMUWAS.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Gosh, the Telegraph have made her look like The Antichrist on their front page.

    Should sell well in most of the country.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763
    The problem for Maggie was that as the legend grew and the pragmatism faded she became perpetual revolution and that, ultimately, is just not British and certainly not Conservative. But reflecting on her coverage again today one can't help feeling how small is the vision of those that followed, content to live in someone else's world.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    hunchman said:

    Enjoyed watching this series in the past about Mrs T:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLt56gDzCLg

    Found a lot of the comments by Shirley WIlliams particularly perceptive. Ken Clarke is also good value in parts.

    Many thanks for posting this link. I spent a frustrating hour earlier this evening looking for these Telegraph DVDs, and not finding them!

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. L, there will be dramatic change soon enough in this country.

    We shall either adapt to the new economic reality, claw our way out of the pit and prosper, or adopt the policies of comfortable innumeracy that will plunge us further into the darkness.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mrs T Quote on votes:

    "Votes do not fall from the trees like ripe plums. They have to be fought for".

    – PRIVATE MEETING OF TORY CANDIDATES BEFORE THE 1979 GENERAL ELECTION.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    @anotherDave - thanks. I can't help wondering what people who are under 22 make of today. Its a sobering thought that you'd have to be nearly 45 now to have voted at a General Election with her as one of the party leaders. And I'll be fascinated to see what happens to her reputation if events play out the way I think they will over the next 3 years or so. But maybe that's a question for another day.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Good tribute from Cameron on the news, maybe it may do something to reassure his base. After all when Reagan died in 2004 it did not do Dubya too much harm in November!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    A quite bizarre intervention from James Delingpole in the Telegraph:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100211200/margaret-thatcher-dies-dave-basks-in-the-limelight/

    I wonder what Mr Delingpole thinks David Cameron should have done today?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    antifrank said:

    A quite bizarre intervention from James Delingpole in the Telegraph

    It's not as if there's any other kind available from Delingpole.



  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    antifrank said:


    I wonder what Mr Delingpole thinks David Cameron should have done today?

    Probably the same thing that Dan Hodges thinks Ed Miliband should have done (ie anything other than what they actually did).
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    when you record your painfully sincere piece to camera timed perfectly to catch the Six O'Clock News it doesn't make you look statesmanlike: just cynical, desperate and in somewhat brashly poor taste

    Oh Delingpole, you Grade A pr*ck you.

    Why do people like him and Dan Hodges have paid employment?

    I blame Thatcher.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Did I mention the news? Nu-Nu-Disqus is total dredge. I have now had to reset my password five times. Anyone got any idea how to overcome the foibles of this thing? Cheers.
  • antifrank said:

    A quite bizarre intervention from James Delingpole in the Telegraph:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100211200/margaret-thatcher-dies-dave-basks-in-the-limelight/

    I wonder what Mr Delingpole thinks David Cameron should have done today?

    Cameron has many faults, but getting his reaction right in situations like this ain't one of 'em.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Interesting perspective from David Allen Green:

    http://jackofkent.com/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-in-perspective/

    However, in terms of policy, the record of Thatcher was a lot more mixed than either admirers or haters will ever admit.
    For example: the Police and Criminal Evidence Act of 1984 (PACE) is, in practical terms, the most important civil liberties statute of modern times. It may be that, say, the Human Rights Act of 1998 has more overall significance; but it is PACE which on an everyday-basis limits the excesses of police power, and not any heady invocation of human rights.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    tim said:

    Have we had Dan Hodges' piece on how this is terrible for Ed Miliband yet?

    Amazing predictive powers. Are you secretly a subeditor on the Telegraph?

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited April 2013
    @Neil

    where have you been?! The Labour selection in Bermondsey and Old Southwark have started. Already 3 candidates out and about

    Cllr Gavin Edwards ( Peckham Rye): http://gavin4bos.wordpress.com/
    Cllr Neil Coyle (Newington) http://www.neilcoyle.org.uk/
    Cllr Richard Livingstone (Livesey) http://richardlivingstone.wordpress.com/
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013

    Cameron has many faults, but getting his reaction right in situations like this ain't one of 'em.

    Cameron's people's princess, sorry, patriot prime minster, was embarrassingly cringeworthy, but the idea that Cameron shouldn't have made a statement to the cameras as PM is so bonkers it's from a different planet.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Delingpole is getting weirder and weirder. What a bitter, spiteful bloke.

    I'm pretty sure he was in Uni with Cameron too.

    Oddball.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.

    Chickenshit.

    What would she make of our banks ?
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Blimey, the BBC are gushing about Thatcher.

    A difficult task to report her death and legacy for sure, but they certainly aren't reflecting the centre / majority view of the woman very well.

    Perhaps that's for another time.
  • carl said:

    Blimey, the BBC are gushing about Thatcher.

    A difficult task to report her death and legacy for sure, but they certainly aren't reflecting the centre / majority view of the woman very well.

    Perhaps that's for another time.

    What do you want them to do?

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @Andrea

    Thanks Andrea, I've been in a news vacuum for a little while so missed the starting gun for that selection. Does Neil Coyle have Unite backing formally or is the link on his site a little misleading. Richard Livingstone would be the best known name of the three but I have no idea whether that will translate into support. Has Dora thrown her hat into the ring? ;) Or IoS?!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Bobajob, I'm sorry to hear you're still having such problems. I'm afraid I don't have a remedy to suggest, but hopefully one of the more technologically attuned chaps here will.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    The BBC seemed oddly caught off-guard in the immediate time after her death, as if they had an immediate response plan but they couldn't find it. Anyway I think the coverage has been pretty good and fairly well-balanced (if you take it as a whole).
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    carl said:

    IoS

    Of course people have "behaved themselves". There is nothing to celebrate.

    A frail old lady has died, that's sad.

    Thatcher's evil legacy will not be undone by her death, that's even more sad.

    Just wondering what you make of Blair and Brown's legacy.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    carl said:

    A difficult task to report her death and legacy for sure, but they certainly aren't reflecting the centre / majority view of the woman very well.

    It really doesn't matter TBH. Those who lived through that time made up their minds about her one way or another long ago.

    Nothing startling or new will likely be reported now.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.

    Chickenshit.

    What would she make of our banks ?

    Sure, but the mines were making losses like that each year, the banks have over past decades paid vast amounts in tax, as have their workers. One day they may do so again. That was never going to happen with the mines.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I'm anxiously awaiting the Express's headline. Will it be "Diana and Maggie: the untold story"?

    I thought you were doing us a favour a feckin-orf for a month-or-so? Trust a lawyer to prove the value of his word.

    :asshat-watch:
    I said I was going to hibernate for a month. Like any good lawyer, I can multitask.
    and charge 500 pounds an hour whilst you do it ;-)

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    "Thatcher's evil legacy will not be undone by her death, that's even more sad."

    "Just wondering what you make of Blair and Brown's legacy."

    Blair was Thatcher's evil legacy.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    carl said:

    Gosh, the Telegraph have made her look like The Antichrist on their front page.

    Should sell well in most of the country.

    The same Telegraph that has the following headlines?

    " A champion of freedom for workers, for nations and the world"

    "the outstanding peacetime leader of the 20th century"

    " How Thatcher changed Britain for the better"

    "Every politician in Britain is in her shade"

    As you say, should sell well.

  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Grandiose said:

    The BBC seemed oddly caught off-guard in the immediate time after her death, as if they had an immediate response plan but they couldn't find it. Anyway I think the coverage has been pretty good and fairly well-balanced (if you take it as a whole).

    I agree with that. I was in the car as the news broke listening to R5. They were clearly caught off-guard but over the next two hours the coverage was fair and gracious and interesting. Barely an ill word was spoken during the time I was listening.

    I also briefly caught Peter Allen on this afternoon and he had some great anecdotes about her from during his time working in the press lobby.

    The Beeb did well, fair play.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    carl said:

    Blimey, the BBC are gushing about Thatcher.

    A difficult task to report her death and legacy for sure, but they certainly aren't reflecting the centre / majority view of the woman very well.

    Perhaps that's for another time.

    I'm sort of hoping one of the polling companies will get commissioned to do some Thatcher stuff, think it'd be interesting (albeit there might be a problem with short term noise from her death and the coverage)
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited April 2013
    @Neil

    other updates...

    John Biggs AM has been selected as Mayoral candidate in Tower Hamlets.

    Brent Central, Hornsey, Enfield North and Hendon have been officially advertized too.

    IIRC Dismore didn't rule out another attempt in Hendon...so I guess it's him again if he wants.
    Enfield North is AWS. I wonder if Joan Ryan wants a comeback but I didn't read anything regarding it.

    Brent Central is open....and they need to stop Dawn Butler as she apparently wants to stand again. A black Hackney Cllr and a Somali woman from Bethnal Green have already joined the race + various males Brent Cllrs are expected to have a go too.

    The Islington council leader has been mentioned too but I think she would go for Hornsey (as she was shortlisted there last time too).

    The Labour euro shortlist have been published today too. No-one from your part of London IIRC. But they reclyced a failed candidate for Italian parliament ex pats constituency. I root for him!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.

    Chickenshit.

    What would she make of our banks ?

    Sure, but the mines were making losses like that each year, the banks have over past decades paid vast amounts in tax, as have their workers. One day they may do so again. That was never going to happen with the mines.
    Sorry FiS it isn't going to happen. An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year - then add in the rest. The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 becaause they are dangerously unsustainable. As for the "profits" they were a mirage we're still guaranteeing over £1 trn as a nation. Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people.
  • Margaret Thatcher may have been divisive in life, but in death the balance of British public opinion looks admiringly at her record, according to a new Guardian/ICM poll. On the day of her death, half of all respondents, 50%, told the pollster that they look back on her contribution as a positive one for Britain. That is 16 points more than the 34% who say she was bad for the country.

    Opinions remain strong on both sides: half of her admirers, 25%, rate her record as "very good", and most of her detractors, 20% of the overall sample, deem it to have been "very bad". Indeed, only 11% sit on the fence and say she was "neither good nor bad"; an even smaller slither of opinion, just 5%, told ICM that they didn't know.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/britain-divided-margaret-thatcher-record-poll
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Floater said:

    carl said:

    IoS

    Of course people have "behaved themselves". There is nothing to celebrate.

    A frail old lady has died, that's sad.

    Thatcher's evil legacy will not be undone by her death, that's even more sad.

    Just wondering what you make of Blair and Brown's legacy.

    I think they went some way towards repairing the terrible damage Thatcher did to our country.

    But not enough, and made horrible mistakes (eg buying into Thatcher's mad policies on economics and the City which directly led to the deficit and debt crisis we're now living through, Iraq)
  • Well the Socialist Worker Front Page is going to outrage some people.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Dave Nellist hasn't changed! He was MP for Coventry SE though! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Butcher_(British_politician) represented Coventry SW.

    "The real tragedy is that while she may be dead herself her ideas are still alive and well in the form of the ConDem coalition and New Labour," says Dave Nellist, Labour MP for Coventry South West between 1983 and 1992 and now a Socialist Party spokesman.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited April 2013
    I opened a '79 Corton Renardes to go with supper. It seemed the right thing to do. Still showing well.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    carl said:

    Floater said:

    carl said:

    IoS

    Of course people have "behaved themselves". There is nothing to celebrate.

    A frail old lady has died, that's sad.

    Thatcher's evil legacy will not be undone by her death, that's even more sad.

    Just wondering what you make of Blair and Brown's legacy.

    I think they went some way towards repairing the terrible damage Thatcher did to our country.

    But not enough, and made horrible mistakes (eg buying into Thatcher's mad policies on economics and the City which directly led to the deficit and debt crisis we're now living through, Iraq)
    Actually Carl, that pair took a fairly benign legacy and trashed it.

    Just for grins it seemed at times.

    I mean, how many warnings from the IMF etal did Brown ignore?

    No more boom and bust indeed.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    hunchman said:

    Dave Nellist hasn't changed! He was MP for Coventry SE though! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Butcher_(British_politician) represented Coventry SW.

    "The real tragedy is that while she may be dead herself her ideas are still alive and well in the form of the ConDem coalition and New Labour," says Dave Nellist, Labour MP for Coventry South West between 1983 and 1992 and now a Socialist Party spokesman.

    Nellist is increasingly a sad dinosaur
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Margaret Thatcher may have been divisive in life, but in death the balance of British public opinion looks admiringly at her record, according to a new Guardian/ICM poll. On the day of her death, half of all respondents, 50%, told the pollster that they look back on her contribution as a positive one for Britain. That is 16 points more than the 34% who say she was bad for the country.

    Opinions remain strong on both sides: half of her admirers, 25%, rate her record as "very good", and most of her detractors, 20% of the overall sample, deem it to have been "very bad". Indeed, only 11% sit on the fence and say she was "neither good nor bad"; an even smaller slither of opinion, just 5%, told ICM that they didn't know.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/britain-divided-margaret-thatcher-record-poll

    So much for carl's "majority view".

    Total reverence from the Telegraph in their front page.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Thought John Major had aged when giving an interview today - maybe the winter tan but definitely looked a good deal older to me. Douglas Hurd on Newsnight tonight still looks in fine fettle for someone who is 83. Fascinating to see so many faces from public life of yesteryear today.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    @AlanBrooke
    "The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 because they are dangerously unsustainable."

    By the time there's another credit bubble on a similar scale - and we're nowhere near the end of the deflationary spiral from the 2008 one yet - the City banks will all be in East Asia imo.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited April 2013

    Sorry FiS it isn't going to happen. An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year - then add in the rest. The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 becaause they are dangerously unsustainable. As for the "profits" they were a mirage we're still guaranteeing over £1 trn as a nation. Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people.

    Foxinsox is right to say that the losses from the mines were going to be every year. The UK financial sector also employs many people, the losses per year (you mean billion) are lower, the tax revenues much larger and the balance of trade better (I think, I should check that).
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Well the Socialist Worker Front Page is going to outrage some people.

    What do you expect from that lot?

    Daily Mirror a tad on the ungracious side also if you look at the small print.



  • Kevin Maguire on Sky News is struggling to stop his feet tapping. He's clever enough to know that now is not the time.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    @AlanBrooke - "An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year"

    That certainly puts things in perspective. Very true to say that the effective subsidies to the banking industry post 2007 dwarf anything seen in respect of the nationalised industries in the post WW2 period in real terms. And its nice to see that I'm not the only one mentioning deflation!
  • carlcarl Posts: 750

    I opened a '79 Corton Renardes to go with supper. It seemed the right thing to do. Still showing well.

    I cracked open one or two finest Belgian lagers, Stella Artois, reassuringly expensive, still showing well after a few days cellaring, nose rather fruity, but smooth on the palate.

    Seemed appropriate, don't like champagne anyway.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    Is that REALLY the Sun front page??

    *doublechecks*

    Blimey.

    That's a strange, strange one indeed.

    Serious miscalculation at NI HQ.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    The Sun: Maggie Dead in Bed at Ritz see pages 2-13
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:



    Mandela = Terrorist
    Nabavi = Terroirist

    That's a bit subtle for PB.com.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Grandiose said:

    Sorry FiS it isn't going to happen. An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year - then add in the rest. The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 becaause they are dangerously unsustainable. As for the "profits" they were a mirage we're still guaranteeing over £1 trn as a nation. Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people.

    Foxinox is right to say that the losses from the mines were going to be every year. The UK financial sector also employs many people, the losses per year (you mean billion) are lower, the tax revenues much larger and the balance of trade better (I think, I should check that).

    RBS has made accumulated losses of almost £40 bn since 2008. HBOS losses are of a similar scale and now carried by LLoyds. How many years' mining is that ?

    And the balance sheets aren't fully cleaned up yet.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.

    Chickenshit.

    What would she make of our banks ?

    Sure, but the mines were making losses like that each year, the banks have over past decades paid vast amounts in tax, as have their workers. One day they may do so again. That was never going to happen with the mines.
    Sorry FiS it isn't going to happen. An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year - then add in the rest. The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 becaause they are dangerously unsustainable. As for the "profits" they were a mirage we're still guaranteeing over £1 trn as a nation. Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people.
    Several hundred thousand are employed in banking and financial services. The profits may have been a mirage, but taxes were paid on those profits. The losses this year by RBS included a lot of write offs of bad debts, a feature of other banks at present. They will return to profit in time. A lot of the £1 trillion in guarantees is covered by assets, but also some losses to be realised.

    What happened to the banks, with Gordon Brown's "light touch regulation" and nationalisation of liabilities will be a problem for some time, but it will be resolved in time, and those banks will either shut or return to profit. In this way the fate of the mines and the fate of the banks will be similar, the difference is that the mines were never going to return to profit.

    I was born in a mining town, and have some affinity with miners as a result, but the writing was on the wall for the mines for decades, which is why so many mines closed in the 60's and 70's, under governments both red and blue.
  • RicardohosRicardohos Posts: 258
    edited April 2013
    Been working most of the day and switched on Newsnight hoping for a decent analysis but gave up after 10 minutes. Dearie me. It was like that scene at the end of Return of the King where the figures are all old ghosts that no longer need to talk to each other but communicate in their own language.

    There would have to be one hell of an effort to make Made in Chelsea viewers pay much attention to today's news. It all feels like a long long time ago now.
  • Mick_Pork said:

    Is that REALLY the Sun front page??

    *doublechecks*

    Blimey.

    That's a strange, strange one indeed.

    Serious miscalculation at NI HQ.

    It is a bit tasteless. I'd have thought the Sun would have been a bit more respectful.

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    The International Herald Tribune has it right:

    "With a strong will, she transformed both Britain and modern capitalism"
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @AlanBrooke

    "Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people."

    Are you suggesting, that the mines should have been kept open even though nobody wanted to buy their product, and today they wouldn't be allowed to - remember burning coal is evil and causes polar bears to die? Wasn't the late Baroness and early adopter of Global Warming?

    Anyway, several of your posts lately have caused me to worry about you. This idea that it would have been better to pay people very large sums to dig out stuff from the ground that has no economic value is just another example. Is their anything you feel you should tell us?

  • carlcarl Posts: 750

    Been working most of the day and switched on Newsnight hoping for a decent analysis but gave up after 10 minutes. Dearie me. It was like that scene at the end of Return of the King where the figures are all old ghosts that no longer need to talk to each other but communicate in their own language.

    There would have to be one hell of an effort to make Made in Chelsea viewers pay much attention to today's news. It all feels like a long long time ago now.

    Yeah you're right.

    The blood runs deep, so deep, amongst the people and communities she affected.

    But for many people, it's all a bit meh.

    I don't expect much political impact.
  • tim said:

    @TwistedFireStopper

    Looks like they are teeing up a "neglected by her children" line

    With kids like hers, I'd have opted for the Ritz.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013

    It is a bit tasteless. I'd have thought the Sun would have been a bit more respectful.

    It's more than that, it's downright peculiar. I have no idea what they were thinking with that.
    It's a pretty hard thing to mess up truth be told. but they seem to have managed it. We all know the Sun are hardly likely to be hostile to her so a great many will be scratching their heads over that one.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.

    Chickenshit.

    What would she make of our banks ?

    Sure, but the mines were making losses like that each year, the banks have over past decades paid vast amounts in tax, as have their workers. One day they may do so again. That was never going to happen with the mines.
    Sorry FiS it isn't going to happen. An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year - then add in the rest. The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 becaause they are dangerously unsustainable. As for the "profits" they were a mirage we're still guaranteeing over £1 trn as a nation. Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people.
    Several hundred thousand are employed in banking and financial services. The profits may have been a mirage, but taxes were paid on those profits. The losses this year by RBS included a lot of write offs of bad debts, a feature of other banks at present. They will return to profit in time. A lot of the £1 trillion in guarantees is covered by assets, but also some losses to be realised.

    What happened to the banks, with Gordon Brown's "light touch regulation" and nationalisation of liabilities will be a problem for some time, but it will be resolved in time, and those banks will either shut or return to profit. In this way the fate of the mines and the fate of the banks will be similar, the difference is that the mines were never going to return to profit.

    I was born in a mining town, and have some affinity with miners as a result, but the writing was on the wall for the mines for decades, which is why so many mines closed in the 60's and 70's, under governments both red and blue.
    Writedowns simply mean previous years' profits were fictitious so therefore so was the tax base, it's one of the reasons the UK is struggling to contol its deficit. No doubt banks will eventually return to profit ( mostly by screwing their customers again ), but let us not kid ourselves, this is the biggest state handout in UK history and we're saving a business in a way mines, shipbuilding or BL could only dream about.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    @Ricardohos - agreed, its merely a reflection of the decline of Newsnight as a program. I hardly watch it these days. For example on the miners strike, they just labelled all miners as the same - no mention of the DUM and the key role the Nottinghamshire miners made in the strike - terrible reporting in my book.

    One thing that hasn't been mentioned much today is one of the great fault lines of Thatcherism - on the one hand the great drive to empower the individual through home / share ownership when set against the centralisation of power, particularly the transfer of powers from local government towards the centre.
  • Some comments on the Thatcher legacy, with particular reference to the mining industry. I am writing this in the former Durham pit village of Rowlands Gill, with the pictures of my father and grandfather on my wall. My father started work on the screens at Friarside pit at the age of 14, and my grandfather was the traffic manager at the pit, having started work underground at the age of 13.
    My family tree shows every generation from 1634 working in the Durham pits.

    Between 1800 and 1983, Durham Mining Museum has records of 311 shafts and drifts in a 5 mile radius from my house. Most of those pits closed over the years due to exhaustion. However, in 1963 there were still 71 working collieries in that 5 mile radius. Between 1963 and 1983, all 71 had closed, interestingly 37 under Conservative governments, and 34 under Labour. Most were closed under the chairmanship of the NCB by Lord (Alf) Robens, former Labour MP for Blyth.

    The market for coal catestrophically declined during that period. Coal for home heating/cooking and the railways dried up, encouraged by the actions of Labour Councils and the Durham Aged Miners' Homes Association in converting thousands oh houses to gas central heating. The market disappeared, at the same time as pits were encountering serious geological problems. The end was inevitable.

    Six Durham pits struggled on to the 1990's -
    Dawdon, sank 1907 closed 1991
    Easington sank 1899 closed 1993
    Murton sank 1843 closed 1991
    Seaham sank 1926 closed 1993
    Wearmouth sank 1835 closed 1993
    Westoe sank 1909 closed 1993

    These pits were all operating under the North Sea, and hit serious, insurmountable geological faults. The very last pit in the North Eastern coalfield, Ellington, sank 1909, closed 2005.

    A Labour government could have saved Ellington, but didn't.

    Margaret Thatcher has been accused of decimating the Durham mining industry, but strictly speaking, the last Durham pits closed after she had left office.
    A final comment: "Nee son of mine is gannin doon the pit". Spoken by my aunt in the 1960's.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited April 2013
    Alanbrooke, the taxpayers' losses in the banks aren't anything like that per year. (The banks' losses are much smaller than the figures quoted.) The total losses on paper are around at the moment round £7bn on Lloyds and £21bn on RBS. They were lower a couple of years ago, totalling £12bn, sunk two years ago and were better last year.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/30/royal-bank-scotland-lloyds-deficit

    As to the banks' losses: RBS lost £5.2bn last year, and around £750m the year before; £1.1bn in 2010, £3.6bn in 2009, and £24.3bn in 2008. The losses are past-heavy and the future looks much better than for the mines.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    terrytory said:

    Some comments on the Thatcher legacy, with particular reference to the mining industry. I am writing this in the former Durham pit village of Rowlands Gill, with the pictures of my father and grandfather on my wall. My father started work on the screens at Friarside pit at the age of 14, and my grandfather was the traffic manager at the pit, having started work underground at the age of 13.
    My family tree shows every generation from 1634 working in the Durham pits.

    Between 1800 and 1983, Durham Mining Museum has records of 311 shafts and drifts in a 5 mile radius from my house. Most of those pits closed over the years due to exhaustion. However, in 1963 there were still 71 working collieries in that 5 mile radius. Between 1963 and 1983, all 71 had closed, interestingly 37 under Conservative governments, and 34 under Labour. Most were closed under the chairmanship of the NCB by Lord (Alf) Robens, former Labour MP for Blyth.

    The market for coal catestrophically declined during that period. Coal for home heating/cooking and the railways dried up, encouraged by the actions of Labour Councils and the Durham Aged Miners' Homes Association in converting thousands oh houses to gas central heating. The market disappeared, at the same time as pits were encountering serious geological problems. The end was inevitable.

    Six Durham pits struggled on to the 1990's -
    Dawdon, sank 1907 closed 1991
    Easington sank 1899 closed 1993
    Murton sank 1843 closed 1991
    Seaham sank 1926 closed 1993
    Wearmouth sank 1835 closed 1993
    Westoe sank 1909 closed 1993

    These pits were all operating under the North Sea, and hit serious, insurmountable geological faults. The very last pit in the North Eastern coalfield, Ellington, sank 1909, closed 2005.

    A Labour government could have saved Ellington, but didn't.

    Margaret Thatcher has been accused of decimating the Durham mining industry, but strictly speaking, the last Durham pits closed after she had left office.
    A final comment: "Nee son of mine is gannin doon the pit". Spoken by my aunt in the 1960's.

    I think the original point was simply the cost of subsidizing the mines was peanuts compared to the cost of subsidizing the banks.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    tim said:

    @TwistedFireStopper

    Looks like they are teeing up a "neglected by her children" line

    With kids like hers, I'd have opted for the Ritz.

    Or the Blitz

    What wits!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.

    Chickenshit.

    What would she make of our banks ?

    Sure, but the mines were making losses like that each year, the banks have over past decades paid vast amounts in tax, as have their workers. One day they may do so again. That was never going to happen with the mines.
    Sorry FiS it isn't going to happen. An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year - then add in the rest. The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 becaause they are dangerously unsustainable. As for the "profits" they were a mirage we're still guaranteeing over £1 trn as a nation. Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people.
    Several hundred thousand are employed in banking and financial services. The profits may have been a mirage, but taxes were paid on those profits. The losses this year by RBS included a lot of write offs of bad debts, a feature of other banks at present. They will return to profit in time. A lot of the £1 trillion in guarantees is covered by assets, but also some losses to be realised.

    What happened to the banks, with Gordon Brown's "light touch regulation" and nationalisation of liabilities will be a problem for some time, but it will be resolved in time, and those banks will either shut or return to profit. In this way the fate of the mines and the fate of the banks will be similar, the difference is that the mines were never going to return to profit.

    I was born in a mining town, and have some affinity with miners as a result, but the writing was on the wall for the mines for decades, which is why so many mines closed in the 60's and 70's, under governments both red and blue.
    Writedowns simply mean previous years' profits were fictitious so therefore so was the tax base, it's one of the reasons the UK is struggling to contol its deficit. No doubt banks will eventually return to profit ( mostly by screwing their customers again ), but let us not kid ourselves, this is the biggest state handout in UK history and we're saving a business in a way mines, shipbuilding or BL could only dream about.
    No question, Gordon Brown was very generous with our money to the banks, he was very good at handing out money that was not his. Mines, shipbuilding and BL all had massive investment to turn themselves around, investment that they squandered. We shall see if the banks do the same, if they squander their chance then it may be as well to close them, if they get back to profit, then they will be an asset to the country and to taxpayers.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    @Ricardohos - the BBC 1 coverage has been good, but I think C4 have done the best job - Jon Snow bringing the perspective of his years to the news. There is also a good Jon Snow doc on C4. Newsnight is dire.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @TwistedFireStopper

    Looks like they are teeing up a "neglected by her children" line

    With kids like hers, I'd have opted for the Ritz.

    Or the Blitz

    What wits!
    Good though, isn't he?

    Your Wodhouse impression is the best we've got from Tories on PB, you must do better!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    @AlanBrooke

    "Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people."

    Are you suggesting, that the mines should have been kept open even though nobody wanted to buy their product, and today they wouldn't be allowed to - remember burning coal is evil and causes polar bears to die? Wasn't the late Baroness and early adopter of Global Warming?

    Anyway, several of your posts lately have caused me to worry about you. This idea that it would have been better to pay people very large sums to dig out stuff from the ground that has no economic value is just another example. Is their anything you feel you should tell us?

    Middle class lefties should pray to Mrs T every day. She let them off the hook when it came to AGW tax rip-off time. Mines imo could have been restructured to have a longer life especially if they had a more sympathetic energy policy. Some inevitably would have had to close. As for your more market liberal view I tend to be of the opinion that the old shibolleth's of the 80s and 90s have been overtaken by events. Ironically Mrs T's victory in the Cold War unleashed a process - globalisation, opening of the world economy - which meant the old rules stopped working. We need a fundamental rethink. And a rethink based on the UK's own particular set of circumstances, not just the lastest shit idea doing the rounds from the States and adopted by lefties and management consultants ( pre-distribution, urgh ! ) . Some sacred cows will be slaughtered along the way.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    @terrytory - thanks for that fascinating piece. I never forget just how strident Mrs Thatcher was on the betrayal of the Nottinghamshire miners.

    On Newsnight now, although Lamont and Livingstone are polemics apart, can appreciate a lot of the points that both of them make - such are the contradictions of life!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Watching Mrs T on the BBC Parliament channel, doing 1984 conference speeck.

    Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.

    Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.

    Chickenshit.

    What would she make of our banks ?

    Sure, but the mines were making losses like that each year, the banks have over past decades paid vast amounts in tax, as have their workers. One day they may do so again. That was never going to happen with the mines.
    Sorry FiS it isn't going to happen. An indexed value of the mine losses would be about £3.5 million, that's about RBS's losses for a year - then add in the rest. The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 becaause they are dangerously unsustainable. As for the "profits" they were a mirage we're still guaranteeing over £1 trn as a nation. Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people.
    Several hundred thousand are employed in banking and financial services. The profits may have been a mirage, but taxes were paid on those profits. The losses this year by RBS included a lot of write offs of bad debts, a feature of other banks at present. They will return to profit in time. A lot of the £1 trillion in guarantees is covered by assets, but also some losses to be realised.

    What happened to the banks, with Gordon Brown's "light touch regulation" and nationalisation of liabilities will be a problem for some time, but it will be resolved in time, and those banks will either shut or return to profit. In this way the fate of the mines and the fate of the banks will be similar, the difference is that the mines were never going to return to profit.

    I was born in a mining town, and have some affinity with miners as a result, but the writing was on the wall for the mines for decades, which is why so many mines closed in the 60's and 70's, under governments both red and blue.
    Writedowns simply mean previous years' profits were fictitious so therefore so was the tax base, it's one of the reasons the UK is struggling to contol its deficit. No doubt banks will eventually return to profit ( mostly by screwing their customers again ), but let us not kid ourselves, this is the biggest state handout in UK history and we're saving a business in a way mines, shipbuilding or BL could only dream about.
    No question, Gordon Brown was very generous with our money to the banks, he was very good at handing out money that was not his. Mines, shipbuilding and BL all had massive investment to turn themselves around, investment that they squandered. We shall see if the banks do the same, if they squander their chance then it may be as well to close them, if they get back to profit, then they will be an asset to the country and to taxpayers.
    Of course they'll squander it because they always do. There's no way the taxpayer will see a return on the money he's pumped in to the system. But we will be salami sliced over a decade of low returns and the need for more susbsidy.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Newsnight looks like it couldn't really care less and just keeps poking people for an argument.

    meh

    People won't be short of stuff to pick from for the next few days anyway.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    Mick_Pork said:

    It is a bit tasteless. I'd have thought the Sun would have been a bit more respectful.

    It's more than that, it's downright peculiar. I have no idea what they were thinking with that.
    It's a pretty hard thing to mess up truth be told. but they seem to have managed it. We all know the Sun are hardly likely to be hostile to her so a great many will be scratching their heads over that one.

    The Sun front page may be odd but it is not surprising. Every front page will have a full blown portrait of Thatcher as its splash. For an editor differentiating your product is very difficult. The Sun have just gone for an angle which they believe will make their paper stand out from the rest and be appealing to their core readership. At the expense of taste maybe but the circulation figures will tell if they were right.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "...the London publisher Allen Lane says the first volume of Thatcher’s authorized biography, Margaret Thatcher: The Authorized Biography, Volume One: Not for Turning, will be published immediately after her funeral.

    She cooperated with Charles Moore, the former editor of the Daily Telegraph, on her memoirs, on the condition that they not be published while she was alive. She did not read the manuscript. "

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/345005/lady-thatchers-funeral-and-forthcoming-biography-john-fund


This discussion has been closed.