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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LDs might have left Glasgow in a buoyant mood but their

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited September 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LDs might have left Glasgow in a buoyant mood but their GE2015 prospects are intrinsically linked to UKIP continuing to prosper

Most delegates at this week’s Liberal Democrat conference left Glasgow in a confident mood helped by the polling of marginal constituencies funded by ex-Tory treasurer Lord Ashcroft and published on Sunday.

Read the full story here


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    It seems a bit odd that the LDs electoral hopes are pinned on something they have no influence over.
  • Options
    What is the political betting thinking on UKIP?

    Will UKIP supporters be enthusiastic gamblers, making the value bet to wager against them?

    Will UKIP surprise the mainstream opinion that dismisses their chances in a hostile FPTP environment?

    They're one of the most interesting potential factors at the next election. Much though I disagree with their politics, it would almost be a bit disappointing if they were to subside to have little impact...
  • Options

    It seems a bit odd that the LDs electoral hopes are pinned on something they have no influence over.

    Given that Cameron is hoping 2010 on a similar theme - in terms of the voting intentions of 2010 Lib Dems who have defected to Labour - then I think this is a natural consequence of four-party politics.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955
    FPT:

    antifrank said:

    Stuart Dickson unaccountably left out this bit of Scottish referendum news:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/18/scottish-independence-spending-cut-warning-thinktank

    "Alex Salmond's hopes of inspiring Scotland's voters to embrace independence a year before the 2014 referendum suffered a blow when a thinktank warned he would need to cut billions from public spending immediately after leaving the UK in order to balance the books.

    The report from the Institute for Fiscal Studies said Scotland's high levels of public spending – 17% above the UK average at £7,932 – would neutralise the benefits of North Sea oil and gas revenues flowing into an independent Scotland's treasury, leaving it facing a 15% cut in spending.

    If Scotland were to meet the current targets to cut its debts, it would need spending cuts of £2.4bn over the first two years after elections to an independent parliament in 2016.

    If Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR) projections about falling oil revenues were correct, it would face further cuts of £3.5bn."

    If the No side thinks that it is going to win this campaign by labelling us as too wee, too poor and too stupid then it has a bit of a shock awaiting it on 19 September next year.
    I don't think anyone is calling Salmond (or the Scottish people) stupid. However, I think the SNP is being rather disingenuous if they don't address the matter of how might - theoretically at least - balance the budget.

    Or am I just guilty of ridiculous scaremongering?

    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955
    Also, re the burqa/niqab story, how much help could one get from an iPhone or iPad bleating into your ear?

    It's not like it's two-way communication - "So, what's 25 times by 300?" - so all they would get is some blathering, repeated stuff that would surely be far more a distraction than a help to the average student.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955

    It seems a bit odd that the LDs electoral hopes are pinned on something they have no influence over.

    The stupidity of a small section of the population?

    (And by that I mean to include both UKIP and Liberal Democrat supporters.)
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2013
    rcs1000 said:

    Also, re the burqa/niqab story, how much help could one get from an iPhone or iPad bleating into your ear?

    It's not like it's two-way communication - "So, what's 25 times by 300?" - so all they would get is some blathering, repeated stuff that would surely be far more a distraction than a help to the average student.

    A list of 20 key dates and names in a History exam; a list of Poets/Poems in a Lit exam; a list of slightly obscure French phrases to weave into a French exam. I agree it's not going to be raising you from E to A, but D to C? Easily, especially at GCSE level.
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    In these seats Labour has a sizeable but irrelevant vote . The battle will be about who can hoover up these ectopic voters as Labour vanishes from the civilized areas.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955
    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Also, re the burqa/niqab story, how much help could one get from an iPhone or iPad bleating into your ear?

    It's not like it's two-way communication - "So, what's 25 times by 300?" - so all they would get is some blathering, repeated stuff that would surely be far more a distraction than a help to the average student.

    A list of 20 key dates and names in a History exam, a list of Poets/Poems in a Lit exam, a list of slightly obscure French phrases to weave into a French exam. I agree it's not going to be raising you from E to A, but D to C: easily.
    Here is a history GCSE example paper (http://www.wjec.co.uk/uploads/papers/s11-4279-01.pdf) - reading through that, the ability of the student to benefit from hearing - again and again, because otherwise they'll forget it before they use it - "Hitler came to power in 1934... Anschluss 1938... Chamberlain 1938..." - seems somewhere between pretty limited and completely useless.

    If you gave me the choice of having some facts repeated to me ad nauseum or silence, I know which I'd choose. And, I suspect, if you did a test with one half of the class getting iPod encouragement, then I'm pretty sure I know which group would perform better.
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    When do Rawlings and Thrasher release their general election prediction, based on local government election results? Will it be shortly after the 2014 locals, or closer to May 2015?
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    rcs1000 said:

    Also, re the burqa/niqab story, how much help could one get from an iPhone or iPad bleating into your ear?

    It's not like it's two-way communication - "So, what's 25 times by 300?" - so all they would get is some blathering, repeated stuff that would surely be far more a distraction than a help to the average student.

    In this case I don't think we can conclude it isn't a two-way communication, especially as the story is probably made up, so it can be anything we can imagine.

    You could stick a camera under there as well, then have an outsourced team of exam takers relaying the correct answers through the earpiece.
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    rcs1000 said:

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Also, re the burqa/niqab story, how much help could one get from an iPhone or iPad bleating into your ear?

    It's not like it's two-way communication - "So, what's 25 times by 300?" - so all they would get is some blathering, repeated stuff that would surely be far more a distraction than a help to the average student.

    A list of 20 key dates and names in a History exam, a list of Poets/Poems in a Lit exam, a list of slightly obscure French phrases to weave into a French exam. I agree it's not going to be raising you from E to A, but D to C: easily.
    Here is a history GCSE example paper (http://www.wjec.co.uk/uploads/papers/s11-4279-01.pdf) - reading through that, the ability of the student to benefit from hearing - again and again, because otherwise they'll forget it before they use it - "Hitler came to power in 1934... Anschluss 1938... Chamberlain 1938..." - seems somewhere between pretty limited and completely useless.

    If you gave me the choice of having some facts repeated to me ad nauseum or silence, I know which I'd choose. And, I suspect, if you did a test with one half of the class getting iPod encouragement, then I'm pretty sure I know which group would perform better.
    Putting my tinfoil-hat on, the Bluetooth option mentioned in the previous thread gives someone the opportunity to broadcast answers.

    Now there's a conspiracy theory for you ... :-)
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    rcs1000 said:


    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?

    I don't think this one will be.

    'Today ‘Better Together’ disclosed £1.1 million of donations to its campaign. Almost half of that sum came from one man: Ian Taylor, a long-term Conservative Party donor and Chief Executive of oil-traders Vitol plc'

    http://tinyurl.com/cajckmo
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    Putting my tinfoil-hat on, the Bluetooth option mentioned in the previous thread gives someone the opportunity to broadcast answers.

    Now there's a conspiracy theory for you ... :-)

    That's not a conspiracy theory, that's a business plan. How much do you think the customers would pay?
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2013
    rcs1000 said:

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Also, re the burqa/niqab story, how much help could one get from an iPhone or iPad bleating into your ear?

    It's not like it's two-way communication - "So, what's 25 times by 300?" - so all they would get is some blathering, repeated stuff that would surely be far more a distraction than a help to the average student.

    A list of 20 key dates and names in a History exam, a list of Poets/Poems in a Lit exam, a list of slightly obscure French phrases to weave into a French exam. I agree it's not going to be raising you from E to A, but D to C: easily.
    Here is a history GCSE example paper (http://www.wjec.co.uk/uploads/papers/s11-4279-01.pdf) - reading through that, the ability of the student to benefit from hearing - again and again, because otherwise they'll forget it before they use it - "Hitler came to power in 1934... Anschluss 1938... Chamberlain 1938..." - seems somewhere between pretty limited and completely useless.

    If you gave me the choice of having some facts repeated to me ad nauseum or silence, I know which I'd choose. And, I suspect, if you did a test with one half of the class getting iPod encouragement, then I'm pretty sure I know which group would perform better.
    Fair enough.

    Playing devil's advocate - and offering no view on the veracity or otherwise of the original claim - then how about an hours silence, followed by 5 minutes of distilled facts and point-worthy tidbits, and then more silence?

    In most exams I've taken, that would almost certainly have improved my score.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    What is the political betting thinking on UKIP?

    Will UKIP supporters be enthusiastic gamblers, making the value bet to wager against them?

    Will UKIP surprise the mainstream opinion that dismisses their chances in a hostile FPTP environment?

    They're one of the most interesting potential factors at the next election. Much though I disagree with their politics, it would almost be a bit disappointing if they were to subside to have little impact...

    A lot is riding on their choice, and number, of target seats. If they stick Farage in Witney or something for symbolic reasons like they did last time they are throwing away a valuable opportunity. But I suspect they will be more savvy this time around, especially given the chance of actually winning somewhere will focus their minds.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited September 2013
    The Tories are the same.

    Even if they win back the UKIP switchers they are dependent on 2010 LDs not voting LAB.

    It seems a bit odd that the LDs electoral hopes are pinned on something they have no influence over.

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    Well, I've learned something today from PB. It's "shoo-in" not "shoe-in" - thank you, EiT.

    So in return, here's some advice for the Labour party. Shoot the Rabbit, bring back the Badger.

    But it's probably too late now.

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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    Anyone had an Email yet from "Muslim Historian" who claimed Sikh pupils were wearing listening devices in their turbans in his sons school?

    Does anyone know whether this is true?

    Apparently so, in Punjab at least.

    "...invigilator had caught four students for hiding a cellphone in their turban during examination [sic]"

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-05/chandigarh/29512489_1_cheating-cases-students-cellphone

    [and no, I have no statistics on the number of students wearing turbans in India]
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    JackW said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Might I ask you, if "No" wins the referendum should the question be then parked for a generation ?

    As a democrat, I would say what any democrat would say: that it is for the electorate to decide if, and when, an issue is "parked" or "unfinished business".
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    Putting my tinfoil-hat on, the Bluetooth option mentioned in the previous thread gives someone the opportunity to broadcast answers.

    Now there's a conspiracy theory for you ... :-)

    That's not a conspiracy theory, that's a business plan. How much do you think the customers would pay?
    Hmmm. I'm not a Bluetooth expert, but it should be quite easy to knock up an ear-piece and broadcast system using standard kit. It's a case of making the earpiece small enough to be easily concealable. Then you need the questions ahead of time.

    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    A setup a bit like this, perhaps:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAQ-lp0jrHo
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    Quincel said:

    What is the political betting thinking on UKIP?

    Will UKIP supporters be enthusiastic gamblers, making the value bet to wager against them?

    Will UKIP surprise the mainstream opinion that dismisses their chances in a hostile FPTP environment?

    They're one of the most interesting potential factors at the next election. Much though I disagree with their politics, it would almost be a bit disappointing if they were to subside to have little impact...

    A lot is riding on their choice, and number, of target seats. If they stick Farage in Witney or something for symbolic reasons like they did last time they are throwing away a valuable opportunity. But I suspect they will be more savvy this time around, especially given the chance of actually winning somewhere will focus their minds.
    Mr Farage has repeatedly said UKIP is copying Paddy Ashodown's strategy of electing councillors, and then targeting constituencies that show clusters of support in the westminster elections.

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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    JackW said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Might I ask you, if "No" wins the referendum should the question be then parked for a generation ?

    As a democrat, I would say what any democrat would say: that it is for the electorate to decide if, and when, an issue is "parked" or "unfinished business".

    I guess all other things being equal, it will depend on the size of the margin.
  • Options


    Putting my tinfoil-hat on, the Bluetooth option mentioned in the previous thread gives someone the opportunity to broadcast answers.

    Now there's a conspiracy theory for you ... :-)

    That's not a conspiracy theory, that's a business plan. How much do you think the customers would pay?
    Looks like the earpiece would cost $49 - no need to hide it under a Burqa.

    Reckon this would be a pretty expensive service - cheaper to pay for private tuition.
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    Anorak said:

    A list of 20 key dates and names in a History exam; a list of Poets/Poems in a Lit exam; a list of slightly obscure French phrases to weave into a French exam. I agree it's not going to be raising you from E to A, but D to C? Easily, especially at GCSE level.

    Not being funny but...,

    Surely any headgear could hide a small ear-phone? The problem must be bigger than Islam and more correlated with our failed Education-System...?

    :sits-back-smuggly:

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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited September 2013


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

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    JackW said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Might I ask you, if "No" wins the referendum should the question be then parked for a generation ?

    As a democrat, I would say what any democrat would say: that it is for the electorate to decide if, and when, an issue is "parked" or "unfinished business".
    I assume that as a democrat and Swedish resident that you won't be casting a vote on internal Scottish affairs ?

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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013

    rcs1000 said:


    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?

    I don't think this one will be.

    'Today ‘Better Together’ disclosed £1.1 million of donations to its campaign. Almost half of that sum came from one man: Ian Taylor, a long-term Conservative Party donor and Chief Executive of oil-traders Vitol plc'

    http://tinyurl.com/cajckmo
    I don’t know why you are attempting to paint Ian Taylor as the bogey man here - He is a Scots oil trader with a major stake in the Harris Tweed industry and after a meeting on Lewis with Alistair Darling, the Better Together leader and former Labour Chancellor, Taylor decided to donate his money, where he believes his best interest and Scotland’s lay.

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-better-togethers-2m-war-chest-and-who-donated-to-it.20727542
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    Anyone had an e mail from "Short haired historian" claiming that people in his sons school with long hair are concealing earpieces during exams?

    Happens a lot in Florida, as, it seems, does a lot of other stuff. This only ranks as 27 on the list.

    "27. iPod-Professor: listen to recorded lecture during the test; possible to hide earphone wires behind long hair"
    http://www.fctl.ucf.edu/events/gtaprograms/workbook/files/detectingandpreventingcheatingduringexams.html

    [I have no statistics on the number of long-haired students in Florida]
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    felix said:


    I guess all other things being equal, it will depend on the size of the margin.

    Not really.
    Hypothesis: No wins referendum handsomely, triumphant Westminster parties either do nothing about further devolution or kick it into very long grass, in 2016 SNP run a manifesto with a commitment to a further referendum and win even bigger Holyrood majority.
  • Options
    Anorak said:

    tim said:

    Anyone had an Email yet from "Muslim Historian" who claimed Sikh pupils were wearing listening devices in their turbans in his sons school?

    Does anyone know whether this is true?

    Apparently so, in Punjab at least.

    "...invigilator had caught four students for hiding a cellphone in their turban during examination [sic]"

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-05/chandigarh/29512489_1_cheating-cases-students-cellphone

    [and no, I have no statistics on the number of students wearing turbans in India]
    Roughly 2% of the Indian population are Sikh.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955
    @EiT,

    Two-way communication would be quite hard, I would have thought given the person at the other end would have to keep saying "What! I can't hear you, please speak up." Also, when the call got inevitably dropped by Three mid way through, there would presumably have been the tell-tale Apple ring-tone, followed by mush scrabbling below the burqa, and a hushed conversation...

    I have a Google Glass. Now that would be useful in exams :-)
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    antifrank said:

    Stuart Dickson unaccountably left out this bit of Scottish referendum news:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/18/scottish-independence-spending-cut-warning-thinktank

    "Alex Salmond's hopes of inspiring Scotland's voters to embrace independence a year before the 2014 referendum suffered a blow when a thinktank warned he would need to cut billions from public spending immediately after leaving the UK in order to balance the books.

    The report from the Institute for Fiscal Studies said Scotland's high levels of public spending – 17% above the UK average at £7,932 – would neutralise the benefits of North Sea oil and gas revenues flowing into an independent Scotland's treasury, leaving it facing a 15% cut in spending.

    If Scotland were to meet the current targets to cut its debts, it would need spending cuts of £2.4bn over the first two years after elections to an independent parliament in 2016.

    If Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR) projections about falling oil revenues were correct, it would face further cuts of £3.5bn."

    If the No side thinks that it is going to win this campaign by labelling us as too wee, too poor and too stupid then it has a bit of a shock awaiting it on 19 September next year.
    I don't think anyone is calling Salmond (or the Scottish people) stupid. However, I think the SNP is being rather disingenuous if they don't address the matter of how might - theoretically at least - balance the budget.

    Or am I just guilty of ridiculous scaremongering?

    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?
    Robert, would be nice if UK government would give it a try
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    The Tories are the same.

    Even if they win back the UKIP switchers they are dependent on 2010 LDs not voting LAB.

    It seems a bit odd that the LDs electoral hopes are pinned on something they have no influence over.

    The Conservative MPs are supposed to be getting an election strategy update this weekend. It'll be interesting to see if what's leaked after the event looks like something they can deliver.

  • Options


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862
    felix said:

    JackW said:

    @Stuart_Dickson

    Might I ask you, if "No" wins the referendum should the question be then parked for a generation ?

    As a democrat, I would say what any democrat would say: that it is for the electorate to decide if, and when, an issue is "parked" or "unfinished business".

    I guess all other things being equal, it will depend on the size of the margin.
    what has it got to do with the margin, if a party put it in their manifesto and win it is a reality
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,219
    edited September 2013
    Unless there is a radical improvement in the Lib Dem polling this seems to me the difference between getting beat and getting hammered. At the moment it looks as if a significant number of left inclined voters were willing to lend their votes to the Lib Dems to keep the hated tory out. The risk must be that they will not be so inclined in 2015 because they will take the view that such Lib Dems are willing to keep tories in office anyway.

    The tories certainly have a problem with UKIP but is it really a bigger problem than the Lib Dems have with left leaning voters? I doubt it is now and it is even less likely to be by the election.

    One thing that has become clear this year is that UKIP support is much more NOTA than anti-EU. Nevertheless, given a forced choice between an ever more eurosceptic tory party and the Lib Dems are they really going to help Lib Dems by hanging on to seats they might lose? Some clearly will, more than in 2010, but the bigger risk is for the Lib Dems.
  • Options


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The other thing that gets broken by recording tech is the secret ballot. It's going to be pretty much impossible to ensure that the voter isn't recording their vote, making the whole thing useless.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862
    edited September 2013

    rcs1000 said:


    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?

    I don't think this one will be.

    'Today ‘Better Together’ disclosed £1.1 million of donations to its campaign. Almost half of that sum came from one man: Ian Taylor, a long-term Conservative Party donor and Chief Executive of oil-traders Vitol plc'

    http://tinyurl.com/cajckmo
    I don’t know why you are attempting to paint Ian Taylor as the bogey man here - He is a Scots oil trader with a major stake in the Harris Tweed industry and after a meeting on Lewis with Alistair Darling, the Better Together leader and former Labour Chancellor, Taylor decided to donate his money, where he believes his best interest and Scotland’s lay.

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-better-togethers-2m-war-chest-and-who-donated-to-it.20727542
    No issue with foreigners with no vote funding the Bitter Together mob, says it all. They cannot even raise money in Scotland but need to get it from foreigners.

    Foreigners = UK government description of someone from UK who does not live in Scotland
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The other thing that gets broken by recording tech is the secret ballot. It's going to be pretty much impossible to ensure that the voter isn't recording their vote, making the whole thing useless.
    What's the problem with that? If someone wants to disclose who they voted for, they don't need to sneak a camera in.

    It's the people running the vote that need to kept in the dark.
  • Options


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The point is that you don't need a Burka to hide an earpiece - the tech has developed to the point where they're small enough to hide without one.

    You could argue this makes exams pointless, just at the moment when Gove is re-emphasising them.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,035
    edited September 2013

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    'Somehow' you've managed to be completely wrong on that point. If Yes Scotland's main donor didn't live in Scotland, wouldn't be voting in the referendum, was a major funder of the Tory party, was the CEO of a company that paid $1m to a war criminal & ethnic cleanser and paid kickbacks to Saddam, I'd personally feel the game wasn't worth a toss.

  • Options
    Anorak said:


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The other thing that gets broken by recording tech is the secret ballot. It's going to be pretty much impossible to ensure that the voter isn't recording their vote, making the whole thing useless.
    What's the problem with that? If someone wants to disclose who they voted for, they don't need to sneak a camera in.

    It's the people running the vote that need to kept in the dark.
    The secret ballot is supposed to be a countermeasure against intimidation and/or vote-buying. If you can intimidate or bribe somebody into voting a particular way, you can intimidate them into recording it so you can check.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    DavidL said:

    Unless there is a radical improvement in the Lib Dem polling this seems to me the difference between getting beat and getting hammered. At the moment it looks as if a significant number of left inclined voters were willing to lend their votes to the Lib Dems to keep the hated tory out. The risk must be that they will not be so inclined in 2015 because they will take the view that such Lib Dems are willing to keep tories in office anyway.

    The tories certainly have a problem with UKIP but is it really a bigger problem than the Lib Dems have with left leaning voters? I doubt it is now and it is even less likely to be by the election.

    One thing that has become clear this year is that UKIP support is much more NOTA than anti-EU. Nevertheless, given a forced choice between an ever more eurosceptic tory party and the Lib Dems are they really going to help Lib Dems by hanging on to seats they might lose? Some clearly will, more than in 2010 but the bigger risk is for the Lib Dems.

    The number of lefties who have to vote LD to keep the tories out is restricted to 75 or so constituencies. So maybe 5000 people per constituency or 375,000 people in total or just under 1% of the electorate.

    The LD Lab 2010 switchers appear to be a form of plankton. The 6% who sulked with Labour and voted LD gave Cameron the keys to No 10, if they'd stuck with Labour then we'd have PM Brown as Labour on 36% would have won most seats. I just hope they repeat the trick.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The point is that you don't need a Burka to hide an earpiece - the tech has developed to the point where they're small enough to hide without one.

    You could argue this makes exams pointless, just at the moment when Gove is re-emphasising them.
    OSM: I think we've all mostly come to the opinion that the story is a bunch of crap
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Some of this cheating stuff shows exactly the sort of initiative and thinking that cheaters lack. You've just got to make it difficult, that's all, and ensure that it continues to be considered 'illegitimate'.
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    Anorak said:


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The other thing that gets broken by recording tech is the secret ballot. It's going to be pretty much impossible to ensure that the voter isn't recording their vote, making the whole thing useless.
    What's the problem with that? If someone wants to disclose who they voted for, they don't need to sneak a camera in.

    It's the people running the vote that need to kept in the dark.
    Potentially anyone can put you under pressure to vote a certain way. With discreet recording tech they could force you to record the way in which you voted to show them afterwards.

    At the present time - postal votes excepted - it is very easy for a voter to lie to anyone pressurising them to vote a certain way, and to vote otherwise.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    'Somehow' you've managed to be completely wrong on that point. If Yes Scotland's main donor didn't live in Scotland, wouldn't be voting in the referendum, was a major funder of the Tory party, was the CEO of a company that paid $1m to a war criminal and ethnic cleanser & paid kickbacks to Saddam, I'd personally feel the game wasn't worth a toss.

    and yet there's no problem with Mr Souter.

    I mean if Mr Taylor rented a cheap flat and called it his address for electoral purposes then you'd be good with it ?
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    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:


    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?

    I don't think this one will be.

    'Today ‘Better Together’ disclosed £1.1 million of donations to its campaign. Almost half of that sum came from one man: Ian Taylor, a long-term Conservative Party donor and Chief Executive of oil-traders Vitol plc'

    http://tinyurl.com/cajckmo
    I don’t know why you are attempting to paint Ian Taylor as the bogey man here - He is a Scots oil trader with a major stake in the Harris Tweed industry and after a meeting on Lewis with Alistair Darling, the Better Together leader and former Labour Chancellor, Taylor decided to donate his money, where he believes his best interest and Scotland’s lay.

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-better-togethers-2m-war-chest-and-who-donated-to-it.20727542
    No issue with foreigners with no vote funding the Bitter Together mob, says it all. They cannot even raise money in Scotland but need to get it from foreigners.
    I think this is more the reality.

    Donation to the YES team. - Ian Taylor is a fine self-made Scot who puts his money where his mouth is – He is proud of his roots, proud to supports traditional Scottish industry and proudly backs Scottish Independence, gawd bless you Sir…!

    Donation to the No team. - This sorry excuse for a haggis is in league with those southern puffters – burn him…!

    Does that mean you will decline any donations from ‘foreigners? – No, Didn’t think so.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    'Somehow' you've managed to be completely wrong on that point. If Yes Scotland's main donor didn't live in Scotland, wouldn't be voting in the referendum, was a major funder of the Tory party, was the CEO of a company that paid $1m to a war criminal and ethnic cleanser & paid kickbacks to Saddam, I'd personally feel the game wasn't worth a toss.

    and yet there's no problem with Mr Souter.

    I mean if Mr Taylor rented a cheap flat and called it his address for electoral purposes then you'd be good with it ?
    Alan , Souter lives in Scotland and has a vote. Also not seen anything re him being major funder of the campaign , how much has he put up.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2013
    rcs1000 said:


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The point is that you don't need a Burka to hide an earpiece - the tech has developed to the point where they're small enough to hide without one.

    You could argue this makes exams pointless, just at the moment when Gove is re-emphasising them.
    OSM: I think we've all mostly come to the opinion that the story is a bunch of crap
    I've come to the opinion that it's quite-likely happened, and is probably still happening. However I've also come to the opinion that given the bazillions of other ways to cheat, singling out this particular method as being worthy of attention is, indeed, a bunch of EDL-baiting crap.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:


    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?

    I don't think this one will be.

    'Today ‘Better Together’ disclosed £1.1 million of donations to its campaign. Almost half of that sum came from one man: Ian Taylor, a long-term Conservative Party donor and Chief Executive of oil-traders Vitol plc'

    http://tinyurl.com/cajckmo
    I don’t know why you are attempting to paint Ian Taylor as the bogey man here - He is a Scots oil trader with a major stake in the Harris Tweed industry and after a meeting on Lewis with Alistair Darling, the Better Together leader and former Labour Chancellor, Taylor decided to donate his money, where he believes his best interest and Scotland’s lay.

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-better-togethers-2m-war-chest-and-who-donated-to-it.20727542
    No issue with foreigners with no vote funding the Bitter Together mob, says it all. They cannot even raise money in Scotland but need to get it from foreigners.
    I think this is more the reality.

    Donation to the YES team. - Ian Taylor is a fine self-made Scot who puts his money where his mouth is – He is proud of his roots, proud to supports traditional Scottish industry and proudly backs Scottish Independence, gawd bless you Sir…!

    Donation to the No team. - This sorry excuse for a haggis is in league with those southern puffters – burn him…!

    Does that mean you will decline any donations from ‘foreigners? – No, Didn’t think so.
    YES have already said there should be no funding from foreigners. Given we have not seen the weasels of Bitter Together trumpeting anything I can presume they are true to their word unlike NO who will sell their soul to the devil.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    malcolmg said:

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    'Somehow' you've managed to be completely wrong on that point. If Yes Scotland's main donor didn't live in Scotland, wouldn't be voting in the referendum, was a major funder of the Tory party, was the CEO of a company that paid $1m to a war criminal and ethnic cleanser & paid kickbacks to Saddam, I'd personally feel the game wasn't worth a toss.

    and yet there's no problem with Mr Souter.

    I mean if Mr Taylor rented a cheap flat and called it his address for electoral purposes then you'd be good with it ?
    Alan , Souter lives in Scotland and has a vote. Also not seen anything re him being major funder of the campaign , how much has he put up.
    He's a big funder of the SNP malc, who do you think is the major party in the yes campaign ?
    He also has quite an interesting past as you know.

    And you haven't answered my point, if Taylor has an address in Scotland does that make it all ok, since these are the rules.
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    Anorak said:


    Taking it further: a little camera in your glasses broadcasting images of the question papers, and the answers received back from someone outside with access to a computer.

    Can't access the video at work - but sounds like an ideal application for Google Glass...

    Google Glass would be a little too obvious at the moment.

    I think Tim's wrong about this below: it may be a small problem at the moment, but the tech is expanding so rapidly that it will be hard for teachers to keep up with all possible attack vectors.
    The other thing that gets broken by recording tech is the secret ballot. It's going to be pretty much impossible to ensure that the voter isn't recording their vote, making the whole thing useless.
    What's the problem with that? If someone wants to disclose who they voted for, they don't need to sneak a camera in.

    It's the people running the vote that need to kept in the dark.
    Potentially anyone can put you under pressure to vote a certain way. With discreet recording tech they could force you to record the way in which you voted to show them afterwards.

    At the present time - postal votes excepted - it is very easy for a voter to lie to anyone pressurising them to vote a certain way, and to vote otherwise.
    Exactly. BTW the solution is to use a smaller secret, which can be transmitted in the opposite direction. Give the voter a secret letter through an earpiece or goggles. Then show them a screen with random letters by the choices. They hit a button to randomly change the positions of the letters. When their letter is next to their choice, they hit another button to select. The attacker can watch them doing it, but still won't know who they voted for, because they don't know which letter represents a real vote.

    The nice thing about this is that you only have to give them their secret once, after which they can vote as many times as they like, even in an uncontrolled, potentially hostile environment like their home.
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    People will cheat in exams if they get the chance and know they will get away with it- Its a fact of life tbh. If a burqa makes it easier to cheat by concealment and by knowing nobody will dare make you uncover it to see if cheating then you can ban burqas and let th islamists who are affected take the exams in a wholly female enviroment , as i believe the only reason to wear a burqa is to protect yourself from male eyes
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:


    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?

    I don't think this one will be.

    'Today ‘Better Together’ disclosed £1.1 million of donations to its campaign. Almost half of that sum came from one man: Ian Taylor, a long-term Conservative Party donor and Chief Executive of oil-traders Vitol plc'

    http://tinyurl.com/cajckmo
    I don’t know why you are attempting to paint Ian Taylor as the bogey man here - He is a Scots oil trader with a major stake in the Harris Tweed industry and after a meeting on Lewis with Alistair Darling, the Better Together leader and former Labour Chancellor, Taylor decided to donate his money, where he believes his best interest and Scotland’s lay.

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-better-togethers-2m-war-chest-and-who-donated-to-it.20727542
    No issue with foreigners with no vote funding the Bitter Together mob, says it all. They cannot even raise money in Scotland but need to get it from foreigners.
    I think this is more the reality.

    Donation to the YES team. - Ian Taylor is a fine self-made Scot who puts his money where his mouth is – He is proud of his roots, proud to supports traditional Scottish industry and proudly backs Scottish Independence, gawd bless you Sir…!

    Donation to the No team. - This sorry excuse for a haggis is in league with those southern puffters – burn him…!

    Does that mean you will decline any donations from ‘foreigners? – No, Didn’t think so.
    YES have already said there should be no funding from foreigners. Given we have not seen the weasels of Bitter Together trumpeting anything I can presume they are true to their word unlike NO who will sell their soul to the devil.
    I've always thought of Alex Ferguson as a Scot myself, and one of Scotland's best known figures.
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    and yet there's no problem with Mr Souter.

    I mean if Mr Taylor rented a cheap flat and called it his address for electoral purposes then you'd be good with it ?

    I wasn't entirely ecstatic about Souter's relationship with the SNP (though a couple of friends far more lefty than me met him and found him a personable bloke), but a) he's always lived and voted in Scotland and b) he's not even a major funder, let alone the main one, of the Yes campaign.
    If Mr Taylor indulged in some face-saving jiggery pokery to get a vote in the referendum, it wouldn't change my opinion of him or BT in the slightest.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Salmond promising to spend even more money by re-nationalising the post office:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24162324

    'Course, given the state of the polls, he could promise to give everyone north of the border a solid gold, full-size statue of William Wallace without any danger of having to deliver it.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    malcolmg said:

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    'Somehow' you've managed to be completely wrong on that point. If Yes Scotland's main donor didn't live in Scotland, wouldn't be voting in the referendum, was a major funder of the Tory party, was the CEO of a company that paid $1m to a war criminal and ethnic cleanser & paid kickbacks to Saddam, I'd personally feel the game wasn't worth a toss.

    He's a big funder of the SNP malc, who do you think is the major party in the yes campaign ?
    He also has quite an interesting past as you know.

    And you haven't answered my point, if Taylor has an address in Scotland does that make it all ok, since these are the rules.
    Alan Yes, if he can vote in it then he can contribute , simple. Souter may have funded SNP in the past but I have yet to see anything on him funding YES.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:


    BTW - I'm assuming that Scottish bred tax evaders will be returning to the country to make their contribution, right?

    I don't think this one will be.

    'Today ‘Better Together’ disclosed £1.1 million of donations to its campaign. Almost half of that sum came from one man: Ian Taylor, a long-term Conservative Party donor and Chief Executive of oil-traders Vitol plc'

    http://tinyurl.com/cajckmo
    I don’t know why you are attempting to paint Ian Taylor as the bogey man here - He is a Scots oil trader with a major stake in the Harris Tweed industry and after a meeting on Lewis with Alistair Darling, the Better Together leader and former Labour Chancellor, Taylor decided to donate his money, where he believes his best interest and Scotland’s lay.

    Somehow I don’t think you would find his £0.5 million donation quite so repellent if it was going into the YES team;s coffers.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-better-togethers-2m-war-chest-and-who-donated-to-it.20727542
    No issue with foreigners with no vote funding the Bitter Together mob, says it all. They cannot even raise money in Scotland but need to get it from foreigners.
    I think this is more the reality.

    Donation to the YES team. - Ian Taylor is a fine self-made Scot who puts his money where his mouth is – He is proud of his roots, proud to supports traditional Scottish industry and proudly backs Scottish Independence, gawd bless you Sir…!

    Donation to the No team. - This sorry excuse for a haggis is in league with those southern puffters – burn him…!

    Does that mean you will decline any donations from ‘foreigners? – No, Didn’t think so.
    YES have already said there should be no funding from foreigners. Given we have not seen the weasels of Bitter Together trumpeting anything I can presume they are true to their word unlike NO who will sell their soul to the devil.
    Good for you MrG, I think my nose would be a little put out too if the majority of funds came from ‘abroad’ so to speak.

    Fun and games over - Pax.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862
    Anorak said:

    Salmond promising to spend even more money by re-nationalising the post office:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24162324

    'Course, given the state of the polls, he could promise to give everyone north of the border a solid gold, full-size statue of William Wallace without any danger of having to deliver it.

    It is not the post office , it is Royal Mail Group. It is a big issue up here and Lib Dem leader was booed and ridiculed last night for supporting it.
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    Anorak said:

    Salmond promising to spend even more money by re-nationalising the post office:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24162324

    'Course, given the state of the polls, he could promise to give everyone north of the border a solid gold, full-size statue of William Wallace without any danger of having to deliver it.

    Funny that such a nationalist like Salmond should want to keep yet another British institution after independence (along with the pound , passport rights, the BBC etc)
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    malcolmg said:

    Anorak said:

    Salmond promising to spend even more money by re-nationalising the post office:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24162324

    'Course, given the state of the polls, he could promise to give everyone north of the border a solid gold, full-size statue of William Wallace without any danger of having to deliver it.

    It is not the post office , it is Royal Mail Group. It is a big issue up here and Lib Dem leader was booed and ridiculed last night for supporting it.
    Ah, so it's a bandwagon jump. Thanks.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    Anorak said:

    Salmond promising to spend even more money by re-nationalising the post office:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24162324

    'Course, given the state of the polls, he could promise to give everyone north of the border a solid gold, full-size statue of William Wallace without any danger of having to deliver it.

    Funny that such a nationalist like Salmond should want to keep yet another British institution after independence (along with the pound , passport rights, the BBC etc)
    It is every bit as much a Scottish institution as it is a British one. Difference is he is interested in the service to the people , not lining his pals pockets.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754



    and yet there's no problem with Mr Souter.

    I mean if Mr Taylor rented a cheap flat and called it his address for electoral purposes then you'd be good with it ?

    I wasn't entirely ecstatic about Souter's relationship with the SNP (though a couple of friends far more lefty than me met him and found him a personable bloke), but a) he's always lived and voted in Scotland and b) he's not even a major funder, let alone the main one, of the Yes campaign.
    If Mr Taylor indulged in some face-saving jiggery pokery to get a vote in the referendum, it wouldn't change my opinion of him or BT in the slightest.
    I didn't think it would change your opinion at all. What you object to is someone funding your opposition, that's just politics. The list of objections though is just not very credible given the source of some of your own funding. And if Nats object so strongly to "foreigners" then why is New York based Alan Cumming in the campaign or has he bought his house in Scotland yet for some face-saving jiggery pokery ?
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    malcolmg said:

    Anorak said:

    Salmond promising to spend even more money by re-nationalising the post office:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24162324

    'Course, given the state of the polls, he could promise to give everyone north of the border a solid gold, full-size statue of William Wallace without any danger of having to deliver it.

    Funny that such a nationalist like Salmond should want to keep yet another British institution after independence (along with the pound , passport rights, the BBC etc)
    It is every bit as much a Scottish institution as it is a British one. Difference is he is interested in the service to the people , not lining his pals pockets.
    Well to me if a lot of the better institutions are as every bit Scottish as British there seems little point in breaking away does there ? Oh he wants to keep the Queen as well I gather. To me Salmond is quite conservative in his outlook - I mean the Royal Mail is a basic amazon parcel delivery service with a lot of junk mail on top now, but because its a old loved British institution it appeals to Salmond - I think he may be a bit confused as to what he wants from independence myself?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    malcolmg said:

    Anorak said:

    Salmond promising to spend even more money by re-nationalising the post office:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24162324

    'Course, given the state of the polls, he could promise to give everyone north of the border a solid gold, full-size statue of William Wallace without any danger of having to deliver it.

    Funny that such a nationalist like Salmond should want to keep yet another British institution after independence (along with the pound , passport rights, the BBC etc)
    It is every bit as much a Scottish institution as it is a British one. Difference is he is interested in the service to the people , not lining his pals pockets.
    From Wiki

    "Following the donation, SNP leader Alex Salmond was criticised for "pandering to homophobia" by accepting Souter's donation[24] - particularly as the party had just opposed the right for gay couples to be given equal treatment by Catholic adoption agencies, and had also snubbed a gay rights debate in January 2007.[24] However, Salmond merely thanked Souter for his support, calling him "one of the outstanding entrepreneurs of his generation".[24] One month later, in April 2007, the SNP's commitment (made at the party's 2006 conference) to re-regulate the bus network was dropped from the 2007 manifesto, although the SNP denied any direct link"
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    I say, I say, I say. What do SNP supporters have to pay in addition to Income Tax?

    Nationalist Insurance!

    :)
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    and the winner of the 2022 winter olympics is (drum roll) --- Qatar!!
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    At least Ed's beating someone in a poll.

    Yougov

    Johann Lamont amongst current Labour supporters
    TOTAL TRUST 33%
    TOTAL DO NOT TRUST 44%
    Don’t Know 23%
    -11%

    Ed Miliband amongst current Labour supporters
    TOTAL TRUST 55%
    TOTAL DO NOT TRUST 38%
    Don’t Know 7%
    +17%
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    RE: Headsets etc in exams

    Once in a previous life I taught in the Middle East. During external exams all students had to pass through an airport style metal detector. This is to check for phones etc but it also solves this problem.
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    maybe the best way for getting those pesky burqa exam cheating ladies to stop is to tell them they will go to hell and burn for all eternity for using a burqa for the wrong reason ! If anyone is likely to believe that its probably them
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    "I have tabled a lot of questions to the Minister on the issue. In reply to one, he has said that by 2020 around 23% of household electricity bills will be as a result of climate change policy. " !!!!

    http://www.thegwpf.org/mps-attack-impact-climate-change-act-families-industry/
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''There are LOTS of reasons to loathe the burqa but this isn't really one of them. ''

    What's interesting is that its the frothing swivel eyed.....er......soft left that wants to ban these garments, not the tories.

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    SeanT said:

    On the cheating burqa thing (seeing as I introduced the meme) I maintain the open mind I had in the first place.

    Probably it is happening somewhere - and invigilators should watch for it - as given the chance people will cheat any way they can. For instance, a friend of mine cheated all the way from A Levels (he burgled the exam papers the night before), University (another burglary) and through law school (he sewed a very small computer into his jeans and linked it by wire to his hand so he could scroll and view notes)

    THIS IS A TRUE STORY. In the end he gave up law anyway as he realised that by cheating his way there, rather than learning, he knew f*ck all about law - so couldn't have made a living.

    So if someone will do that I am sure SOME girls, given the chance, will use hijabs, burqas and niqabs to edge ahead illicitly. But then Sikhs might use turbans. And dodgy smack addict friends of mine will use tiny computers sewn into their trousers.

    There are LOTS of reasons to loathe the burqa but this isn't really one of them.


    Have you kept up with the sewing skills Sean or has it gone the same way as the law studies?

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    and yet there's no problem with Mr Souter.

    I mean if Mr Taylor rented a cheap flat and called it his address for electoral purposes then you'd be good with it ?

    I wasn't entirely ecstatic about Souter's relationship with the SNP (though a couple of friends far more lefty than me met him and found him a personable bloke), but a) he's always lived and voted in Scotland and b) he's not even a major funder, let alone the main one, of the Yes campaign.
    If Mr Taylor indulged in some face-saving jiggery pokery to get a vote in the referendum, it wouldn't change my opinion of him or BT in the slightest.
    I didn't think it would change your opinion at all. What you object to is someone funding your opposition, that's just politics. The list of objections though is just not very credible given the source of some of your own funding. And if Nats object so strongly to "foreigners" then why is New York based Alan Cumming in the campaign or has he bought his house in Scotland yet for some face-saving jiggery pokery ?
    If you think a few luvvies showing a bit of support for a campaign are indistinguishable from the major donor of the opposing campaign, I ain't going to pursue the matter. Still, I'm glad that you're complacent about money from an Arkan employing, Saddam bribing, tax avoiding sanction buster. I suppose if BT can't get people off their arses to campaign for them, they have to accept whatever help they can get.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    tim said:

    Hitler Tamed By Prison. "He looked a much sadder and wiser man today." New York Times article, 1924. pic.twitter.com/mFtuKvWOYN

    "It is believed he will retire to private life and return to Austria"

    Almost makes Dan Hodges and Toby Young look like good tipsters.

    It certainly appears that Hitler got wiser. He became a politician, got elected and used his power to eliminate his opposition.

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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Whilst true in part , the position is far more complex than the statement that the LD chances are dependent on Con to UKIP switchers moving back or not .
    The Lord Ashcroft poll has 97 Con to UKIP switchers and 35 LD to UKIP switchers , 99 of each Con and LD 2010 voters now saying Don't Know , 82 LD to Lab switchers but 39 Lab to LD , 53 LD to Con switchers and 78 Con to LD . Clearly there is currently movement in all directions and it is pretty certain that by GE 2015 there will be further probably major changes other than just in the Con to UKIP part .
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    F1: Raikkonen hasn't been paid at all this season:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24159684

    No wonder he left.

    In other driver news, Massa reckons he won't settle for mid-grid:
    http://www.espn.co.uk/ferrari/motorsport/story/125599.html

    That backs up two potential stories, regarding Grosjean not being entirely safe at Lotus, and some suggestion that Button could end up leaving McLaren. I'd be a bit surprised if Button did go, but that's something I heard as a possibility.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754



    and yet there's no problem with Mr Souter.

    I mean if Mr Taylor rented a cheap flat and called it his address for electoral purposes then you'd be good with it ?

    I wasn't entirely ecstatic about Souter's relationship with the SNP (though a couple of friends far more lefty than me met him and found him a personable bloke), but a) he's always lived and voted in Scotland and b) he's not even a major funder, let alone the main one, of the Yes campaign.
    If Mr Taylor indulged in some face-saving jiggery pokery to get a vote in the referendum, it wouldn't change my opinion of him or BT in the slightest.
    I didn't think it would change your opinion at all. What you object to is someone funding your opposition, that's just politics. The list of objections though is just not very credible given the source of some of your own funding. And if Nats object so strongly to "foreigners" then why is New York based Alan Cumming in the campaign or has he bought his house in Scotland yet for some face-saving jiggery pokery ?
    If you think a few luvvies showing a bit of support for a campaign are indistinguishable from the major donor of the opposing campaign, I ain't going to pursue the matter. Still, I'm glad that you're complacent about money from an Arkan employing, Saddam bribing, tax avoiding sanction buster. I suppose if BT can't get people off their arses to campaign for them, they have to accept whatever help they can get.
    Yeah all of that I'm sure, but at the end of the day it comes down to the Nats wanting to cut off funding for the opposition from Scots ex pats. Moral grandstanding on where the money comes from is just a minefield since politics rich men and money have been intertwined for millenia and no party has bucked the trend including the SNP. Salmond is in many ways a millionaire's groupie as we have seen with The Donald.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    It's like spitting. It's antisocial.

    Yes. We should have the right to refuse to deal with someone wearing this garment if we want to, without incurring the wrath of the equalities thought police.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    "What the hell can the Tories do about Ukip?"

    Come back from the renegotiation next year with Barroso's head in a basket?

    The Jeremiahs have said all along that Dave won't get anything meaningful from Europe. I think that belief's suddenly looking very incorrect.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    Nigel Farage ‏@Nigel_Farage 5m

    Looking forward to welcoming Lord Digby Jones who is speaking to UKIP conference tomorrow #UKIPconf13
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Re HS2

    "We might as well knock down Birmingham and build it twenty minutes closer to London, and do it for less than £50bn.”

    made me smile .
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    SeanT said:

    taffys said:

    ''There are LOTS of reasons to loathe the burqa but this isn't really one of them. ''

    What's interesting is that its the frothing swivel eyed.....er......soft left that wants to ban these garments, not the tories.

    I'd ban them from all public places with human interaction: courtrooms, hospitals, schools, customs, etc

    They should be tolerated in private life, but society should openly express its disapproval. They are just f*cking rude. It's like spitting. It's antisocial.
    See I disagree Sean. I don't think anything should be banned except specific things under specific circumstances. So you should not ban drugs or alcohol except where they put people's lives at risk such as operating machinery or in my case working on rigs.

    In the same way I see no reason to ban the burqa or even object to it except in circumstances where it disrupts normal life. So I agree with the idea that teachers should not wear them in school, in court or at security checks. But why should someone be stopped from wearing one walking down the street. Just because you find it rude is no reason to ban it. I find lefties rude but I don't think they should be banned. Hell I don't even think Tim should be banned and he is way beyond rude and into the realms of nauseating most of the time.

    Banning stuff is not the way to go. Even being annoyed by what someone wears is pretty dumb so long as it is not actually causing you harm.

    First they came for the burqas then they came for the Keffiyehs, then the headscarfs. By the time they came for my balaclava there was no one left to defend me.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    FPT @RedRag1

    Anyone know what the retails sales figure for the UK that were released to day. Usually they are splashed across here the minute they are announced.

    Nothing sinister here, Red Rag. When I posted the Visa Consumer Expenditure Index for August earlier this month, I noted that July's Visa Index had shown a sharp fall in contrast with the ONS figures showing a sharp rise. The Visa August figures had reverted to a sharp rise, so it is not unexpected that the ONS figures for the same month show a balancing fall.

    It looks very much to be a phasing issue with Visa and the ONS using different cut-off points in the month measured.

    I will post the key tables in a follow up comment so you can see the effect. To get a true reading you have to look at the quarter on previous quarter figures to see whether any single month's data are indicative of a trend or a statistical blip.

    If you make this comparison you will see there has been a very slight easing of the upward growth rate in August but nothing of any significance.

    [Tables to follow]


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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    [Tables for Retail Sales]

    ONS Retail Sales
    All Retailing, July 2013 (seasonally adj. % change)          

    Most recent Most recent Most recent Most recent
    month on a 3 months month on 3 months
    year earlier on a year previous on previous
    earlier month 3 months

    Value 4.9 3.8 1.4 2.1
    Volume 3.0 2.2 1.1 1.8
    Val. ex. fuel 4.9 4.0 1.2 2.3
    Vol. ex. fuel 3.1 2.3 1.1 1.7
    All Retailing, August 2013 (seasonally adj. % change)        

    Most recent Most recent Most recent Most recent
    month on a 3 months month on 3 months
    year earlier on a year previous on previous
    earlier month 3 months

    Value 3.6 4.0 -0.8 2.1
    Volume 2.1 2.3 -0.9 1.7
    Val. ex. fuel 3.9 4.1 -0.9 2.1
    Vol. ex. fuel 2.3 2.4 -1.0 1.7

    Visa Europe Consumer Expenditure Index
                                     Aug-13   Jul-13    Jun-13
    % Change (SA)
    Overall Spending Monthly +1.6% -2.4% +0.9%
    Overall Spending 3m/3m % -0.5% -0.7% -0.5%
    Overall Spending Annual % +0.8% -0.1% +2.0%

    % Change (NSA)
    Face-to-Face Spending Annual +1.0% -1.2% +1.5%
    Online Spending Annual % +1.1% -1.7% +2.1%
    Mail/Telephone Order Annual +3.9% +2.7% +4.1%
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited September 2013
    taffys said:

    "What the hell can the Tories do about Ukip?"

    Come back from the renegotiation next year with Barroso's head in a basket?

    The Jeremiahs have said all along that Dave won't get anything meaningful from Europe. I think that belief's suddenly looking very incorrect.

    Is this going to be something that can be shown to voters in 2015? Because the parliamentary Conservative Party voting against a referendum in 2011 makes their promise of holding a referendum in the future difficult to believe.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited September 2013
    taffys said:

    "What the hell can the Tories do about Ukip?"

    Come back from the renegotiation next year with Barroso's head in a basket?

    The Jeremiahs have said all along that Dave won't get anything meaningful from Europe. I think that belief's suddenly looking very incorrect.

    If Dave turned up with Barroso's head in a basket the kippers reaction would be "and where' s van Rompuy's ? "

    It doesn't matter what he does it won't be enough.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Is this going to be something that can be shown to voters in 2015?

    If it isn't, Dave can kiss his premiership goodbye. He simply has to chop the UKIP vote down to size. My hunch is that the number of people who are genuine BOOs under any circumstances are actually quite few.
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    Been out so a quick scan of thread to catch up - what the merry heck is tim on about on this thread though, I've clearly missed something as it is total gibberish unless 'in the loop'.
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    Been out so a quick scan of thread to catch up - what the merry heck is tim on about on this thread though, I've clearly missed something as it is total gibberish unless 'in the loop'.

    Don't worry. Gibberish sums it up pretty well.
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    taffys said:

    My hunch is that the number of people who are genuine BOOs under any circumstances are actually quite few.

    I seem to recall YouGov finding ~20% saying their vote would be affected by parties' EU policy.

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    When I lived in Sparkbrook in Brum in the early 80s all our neighbours were Pakistani Moslems. If you weren't a student your were a Moslem. I do not ever remember seeing a woman in a burqa or a niqab. They covered their heads but you could see their faces and they wore saris with trousers. That leads me to believe that most of the wearing that goes on today is about making a statement, and that further leads me to the conclusion that it is being done of the woman's own volition. I hate the statement that is being made, but I can't see a case for a blanket (or a sheet!) ban in public places.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited September 2013
    ''It doesn't matter what he does it won't be enough. ''

    It won;t be enough for the hard core, I agree. but is every UKIP voter a BOO-er? Some will settle for a looser relationship with Europe. The question is how many and what they might settle for.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    SeanT said:

    It's pretty f*cking outrageous if FIFA now switches the Qatar World Cup to winter. "Oh, we forgot it was a hot country".


    What a shower of shite. Every other bidding nation should sue them to flinders. If FIFA is not corrupt (it is) it is hideously incompetent. Not fit for purpose.

    Could be both!
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited September 2013
    ''I hate the statement that is being made, but I can't see a case for a blanket (or a sheet!) ban in public places.''

    Would you support a person, say in a dole office or a bank, who said - I'm sorry I'm not dealing with you because I can't ascertain your identity and/or I find your unwillingness to interact extremely offensive.

    If we support the right not to deal with burqa wearers, I reckon the burqa would probably disappear without us banning it.
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    @Alanbrooke -
    "I suppose if Better Together can't get people off their arses to campaign for them, they have to accept whatever help they can get."
    Isn't it a bit depressing for Unionists that even folk who support Scotland's continuing membership of the Yookay can't be bothered to get off their arses to campaign?

    Come the big day, one wonders just how many of them will get off their arses to actually bother to vote?

    Differential turnout will be crucial if it is close.
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    When I lived in Sparkbrook in Brum in the early 80s all our neighbours were Pakistani Moslems. If you weren't a student your were a Moslem. I do not ever remember seeing a woman in a burqa or a niqab. They covered their heads but you could see their faces and they wore saris with trousers. That leads me to believe that most of the wearing that goes on today is about making a statement, and that further leads me to the conclusion that it is being done of the woman's own volition. I hate the statement that is being made, but I can't see a case for a blanket (or a sheet!) ban in public places.

    Maybe in the early 80s there was more of a need for immigrants to conform/integrate into UK society. Now a certain critical mass of immigration has occurred, there's less need for immigrants, and those from ethnic minorities to integrate as their community is larger.

    But then, you just used an anecdote... so I'm sure tim will be along soon to mock you.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited September 2013
    taffys said:

    ''It doesn't matter what he does it won't be enough. ''

    It won;t be enough for the hard core, I agree. but is every UKIP voter a BOO-er? Some will settle for a looser relationship with Europe. The question is how many and what they might settle for.

    Some people might, but there is no sign that this 'looser relationship' will have been achieved before May 2015. I suspect Mr Clegg and the LDs would actively work to thwart any such achievement.

    So the Conservatives will be offering a promise of a future referendum, and their UKIP opponents will, in most cases, be able to point out that the Conservative MP voted against a referendum in 2011.

This discussion has been closed.