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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » CON still on 28 percent in ComRes online poll

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited September 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » CON still on 28 percent in ComRes online poll

I trust Ed Miliband and Ed Balls to make the right decisions about the economy
Agree 23% (+8 since March 2012)
Disagree 50% (-9)

Read the full story here


«13

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    first
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2013
    And in another poll out this evening...

    However, the big question is, who holds the public's trust on the economy? The economy has now spent five years at the top of Ipsos MORI Issues Index, and economic credibility is something Labour have fought hard to win back since losing it in 2008.

    Having narrowed the gap to the Conservatives recently this latest poll shows the Tories holding an 18 point lead over Labour as the party with the best policies on managing the economy 38 per cent to 20 per cent.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/politics-ipsos-mori-polling-labour-lib-dem-conservative
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Evening tim. I think the drink has been getting to you.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Square Root

    Ed Miliband's "We are bringing socialism back to Britain", is either inspired or the worst gaffe in British political history. I know where my money will be going.

    Your predecessors probably lost money when the marxist ideology of the NHS was brought in.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    All the polls are in flux grappling with the UKIP problem. And all the polls are deciding that they don't know how to run a 4 party poll that makes any sense, even if they don't realise that decision.

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @SquareRoot

    'Evening tim. I think the drink has been getting to you.'

    No,it's Ed using his family as props.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    tim said:

    Among women voters

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 31%
    Disagree 36%

    Men

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 29%
    Disagree 44%


    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%


    Do you mean that tim? Same results for the Conservatives between men and women? Labour's results slightly favouring women?

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    This is real Comedy Results.

    Did the polling take place this afternoon on the trains down to Brighton?

    Trust in Miliband and Balls "to make the right decisions about the economy" rising since March 2012?

    This is Saturday night at the Brighton Apollo.
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    'Down' does suggest movement. This is a status quo, for these polls, more or less.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    Among women voters

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 31%
    Disagree 36%

    Men

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 29%
    Disagree 44%


    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%


    Sluts the lot of them.

    What on earth would be the results if the facts were known?

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    Thats Populus,ICM and ComRes not showing any narrowing.

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 22%
    Disagree 47%

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 30%
    Disagree 40%


    I can't work out why people think a Govt fronted by David Cameron (Eton) and George Osborne, heir apparent to the Osborne baronetcy (of Ballentaylor, in County Tipperary, and Ballylemon, in County Waterford) would not make them better off.
    Could it be that they fought an election campaign in the teeth of a recession based on an Inheritance Tax cut that would benefit their families by hundreds of thousands of pounds while preaching austerity for everyone else?
    Or could it be that in govt they prioritised a tax cut for the highest earners, while preaching austerity for everyone else?

    It's a tough one

    Perhaps the fact that the UK economy is currently growing faster than all the coutnry's G7 partners, including Japan on Abe steroids and the US under Obama's decisive economic management, might be better factual evidence on which to predict movements in standards of living than the school which the Prime Minister attended or the titles to which the Chancellor is heir?

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    Among women voters

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 31%
    Disagree 36%

    Men

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 29%
    Disagree 44%


    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%



    Ignoring the presentation sleight of hand (which I assume was deliberate):

    Women and men view the Tories the same.

    Men are more negative than women on Labour.

    I expect that is because (a) the recovery is still at an early stage and hasn't really filtered through into the general consciousness yet and (b) women felt the loss of child benefit more acutely
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    Thats Populus,ICM and ComRes not showing any narrowing.

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 22%
    Disagree 47%

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 30%
    Disagree 40%


    I can't work out why people think a Govt fronted by David Cameron (Eton) and George Osborne, heir apparent to the Osborne baronetcy (of Ballentaylor, in County Tipperary, and Ballylemon, in County Waterford) would not make them better off.
    Could it be that they fought an election campaign in the teeth of a recession based on an Inheritance Tax cut that would benefit their families by hundreds of thousands of pounds while preaching austerity for everyone else?
    Or could it be that in govt they prioritised a tax cut for the highest earners, while preaching austerity for everyone else?

    It's a tough one

    I think the details of one member of the political class vs another is too nuanced for the public to give a toss about. GO is heir to a baronetcy, Harman is a posho, they are all Oxbridge toffs in peoples' eyes, etc.

    People have more common sense than you give them credit for (a typical left wing failing). Trust them, they will see through all the fluff and work out what is best for themselves.

    Plus of course as you are loading up on OEs yourself the sting is drawn somewhat.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    More papers getting their money's worth :)
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    So Ed did know what McBride was up to...

    @TimGattITV: Ed Miliband on Damian McBride: "I complained to Gordon [Brown] about what Damian was up to...I was worried by him" http://t.co/zfMoVVhT4U
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Andrew_ComRes: ComRes/S Mirror/IoS: Ed M "turning out out to be good Lab leader" agree 22% (-9 since May) disagree 48% http://t.co/ctXIjv36Oi
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ComRes 18 Sep 2008

    Con 39
    Lab 27
    Ld 21

    Not far off the final 2010 result.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    @Andrew_ComRes: ComRes/S Mirror/IoS: Ed M "turning out out to be good Lab leader" agree 22% (-9 since May) disagree 48% http://t.co/ctXIjv36Oi

    Comedy results :)
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Scott_P said:

    So Ed did know what McBride was up to...

    @TimGattITV: Ed Miliband on Damian McBride: "I complained to Gordon [Brown] about what Damian was up to...I was worried by him" http://t.co/zfMoVVhT4U

    If that's true, Ed is lucky to be alive.

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    Best scene of the film: Donald Pleasance placing and finding the pin.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    tim said:

    Oh god here goes.

    my creepy stalker in full flow.

    Seek help.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @gabyhinsliff: Whatever else goes wrong, the @stefanrousseau pix of Ed Mili & the kids are lovely http://t.co/5d61Phuo8d
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TimGattITV: Miliband says anyone caught briefing against colleagues while he's leader will be sacked: "Totally unacceptable" http://t.co/zfMoVVhT4U

    Place your bets...
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    @ Francis Urquart

    As Mike pointed out in August the Tories had a lead of 22% on the economy (Mori 45% to 23%) just 3 weeks before the 1997 GE. So with the Tory lead 3% less today are you suggesting another Labour landslide in the offing? I am sure you could not possibly comment!
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    edited September 2013
    The only explanation that seems to fit the data is that there is a significant slice of people who think the Tories are best at managing the economy in an impersonal sense - getting the deficit down, addressing the balance of payments, etc. - but that Labour is better at looking after them personally - living wage, maintaining employment, etc. That fits with EdM's consistently better ratings than Cameron's in being "in touch with problems of people like me".

    Let's not waste time arguing whether they're correct. But it looks as though the Eds' "Falling living standards" push is having an impact. Osborne's jubilation over statistics that aren't reflected in people's actual experience strikes a false note.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RobbieGibb: #bbcsp/ComRes survey of Lab Cllrs: 31% say Ed Miliband not doing a good as leader, 30% say they'd be doing better with another leader
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    "A survey by BBC One’s Sunday Politics show found that three in 10 Labour councillors believe the party would stand a better chance of winning the next general election without Mr Miliband as leader."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10325076/Ed-Miliband-Im-bringing-socialism-back-to-Britain.html
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    Broken, sleazy Tories on the slide?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MattChorley: On eve of Labour conf, TWICE as many people back the Tories on the economy http://t.co/hr1b9d2wWW #DontShowEd http://t.co/W7YxefxuH8
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    The only explanation that seems to fit the data is that there is a significant slice of people who think the Tories are best at managing the economy in an impersonal sense - getting the deficit down, addressing the balance of payments, etc. - but that Labour is better at looking after them personally - living wage, maintaining employment, etc. That fits with EdM's consistently better ratings than Cameron's in being "in touch with problems of people like me".

    Let's not waste time arguing whether they're correct. But it looks as though the Eds' "Falling living standards" push is having an impact. Osborne's jubilation over statistics that aren't reflected in people's actual experience strikes a false note.

    I can't help but agree, though I worry for Labour given the time. It's one thing for people not to feel the effects of the green shoots of recovery but 18 months is a long period for overall GDP growth not to filter through to families across the country.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    OllyT said:

    @ Francis Urquart

    As Mike pointed out in August the Tories had a lead of 22% on the economy (Mori 45% to 23%) just 3 weeks before the 1997 GE. So with the Tory lead 3% less today are you suggesting another Labour landslide in the offing? I am sure you could not possibly comment!

    The difference between 1997 and 2015 is simple.

    In 1997 the electorate took competent management of the economy for granted. Under John Major the economy grew by 22% at a compound rate of 1% per quarter over five years. The best performance for any post war UK government.

    In 2010 the electorate took note of what happens when madmen take control of the economy. Under Blair and Brown, between 2005 and 2010, the UK economy grew by 2% at a compound rate of 0.1% per quarter over five years. The second worst performance of any post war government.

    Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Scott_P

    'Miliband says anyone caught briefing against colleagues while he's leader will be sacked: "Totally unacceptable" http://t.co/zfMoVVhT4U


    Has he forgotten about the Lasagne dinners or is he just too weak?


    'www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Ed-Balls-Yvette-Cooper-dish-trouble-Miliband-las...
    29 Jan 2012 - ED Balls and Yvette Cooper have been accused of plotting against Ed Miliband at a lasagne dinner. The husband-and-wife Labour duo wined ...

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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    Thats Populus,ICM and ComRes and Opinium not showing any narrowing.

    Tim you are mistaken. ICM has shown the Labour lead narrowing from where it stood after budget 2012 up to end of June 2013. In that period the Labour lead ranged from 5 to 12. From the start of July 2013 it has been 0, 3 and 4. That is a narrowing.
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2/icm
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    john_zims said:

    is he just too weak?

    How can you say such a thing. Ed is strong. Decisive. Determined to show the unions who leads Labour...

    @ToryTreasury: Important firms not paying min wage are punished, but interesting Lab announcing penalties policy Unite calling for http://t.co/Qtv1EVIREg
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    On topic. There does seem to be some past polling where papers that want one party in power end up with polling results that support their belief. The Mirror and the Observer are Labour supporters. We shall see if the next ICM shows some Labour leads of 10+.
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    F1: I'll be putting up the pre-race piece tomorrow.
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    The only explanation that seems to fit the data is that there is a significant slice of people who think the Tories are best at managing the economy in an impersonal sense - getting the deficit down, addressing the balance of payments, etc. - but that Labour is better at looking after them personally - living wage, maintaining employment, etc. That fits with EdM's consistently better ratings than Cameron's in being "in touch with problems of people like me".

    Let's not waste time arguing whether they're correct. But it looks as though the Eds' "Falling living standards" push is having an impact. Osborne's jubilation over statistics that aren't reflected in people's actual experience strikes a false note.

    Not to mention that the image of the people presently experiencing rising living standards are those benefiting from the top rate tax cut and/or those benefiting from rising house prices in the posh parts of London.

    Compare with the Thatcher years when you had Harry Enfield's 'loadsamoney' character. And what was Loadsamoney's job? A plasterer.
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    AveryLP said:


    In 2010 the electorate took note of what happens when madmen take control of the economy. Under Blair and Brown, between 2005 and 2010, the UK economy grew by 2% at a compound rate of 0.1% per quarter over five years. The second worst performance of any post war government.

    Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?

    A problem you have Avery is that Cameron and Osborne bought into the Brownian economy and based their political strategy upon everlasting and effortless economic growth. Even though a few hours perusal on the ONS data would have shown that the economy was instead circling the drain.

    Not to mention that there's always money available for Cameron to give to foreigners, for Cameron to throw at political problems or for Cameron to spend on his pet projects. For that matter there's always money available for Cameron to spend on his wife's pet projects as well.


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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    SeanT said:

    Disappointing polls for the Tories - no getting round it - after a run of good 'uns.
    Even worse for the Libs. No conference boost outside the MOE. Stuck at 7 with Opinium and just two years from the GE.

    Yes, I must say that the delicious prospect of LibDem annihilation tantalisingly dangled by this poll has cheered me up immensely.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GuidoFawkes: Miliband says anyone caught briefing against colleagues while he's leader will be sacked. Who briefed against Twigg? Tom Baldwin.

    Martin Bright in The Times
    I read Damian McBride’s account of his time as Gordon Brown’s political hitman with a sense of horror and terrible recognition. As Political Editor of the New Statesman, known at the time as the house journal of Labour’s Brownite faction, I had a ringside seat during one of the most brutal and poisonous periods of recent political history.

    During the Blair Government I enjoyed complete freedom to sound off and to run investigations, even when these targeted senior government figures and allies of the Prime Minister. I received regular briefings from “the two Eds” — Balls and Miliband — about supposed Blairite outrages and the endless negotiations for the succession.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/thunderer/article3875368.ece
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Do you agree or disagree about each of the following statements about Ed Miliband?
    Ed Miliband should promise to scrap the so-called 'Bedroom Tax' if Labour wins the next General Election


    All voters
    Agree 51%
    Disagree 26%

    2010 Lib Dems 58/19
    UKIP voters 49/34


    I don't think that is a great question.

    Surely it conflates what he should *do* with what he should *promise*. Potentially a misleading result.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Among women voters

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 31%
    Disagree 36%

    Men

    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if Labour wins the next election
    Agree 29%
    Disagree 44%


    I would expect my family to be better off than it is now if the Conservatives win the next election
    Agree 24%
    Disagree 48%



    Ignoring the presentation sleight of hand (which I assume was deliberate):

    Women and men view the Tories the same.

    Men are more positive than women on Labour.

    I expect that is because (a) the recovery is still at an early stage and hasn't really filtered through into the general consciousness yet and (b) women felt the loss of child benefit more acutely
    Or, after reading the last thread, there's a some blokes like Sean who stupidly think rising house prices make them better off no matter what else happens

    It makes them better off if they have no aspiration to trade up on the housing ladder.

    To be fair, though, it is easy to muddle up the price and the value of something
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    SeanT said:

    Disappointing polls for the Tories - no getting round it - after a run of good 'uns.

    Even worse for the Libs. No conference boost outside the MOE. Stuck at 7 with Opinium and just two years from the GE.

    Agree,at least sean you not making the excuse of the polls were lying like some labour posters ;-)

    Good polls for labour,the tories need to fight labour on the cost of living because at the moment labour winning hands down,thats with labour not offering much.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013

    The only explanation that seems to fit the data is that there is a significant slice of people who think the Tories are best at managing the economy in an impersonal sense - getting the deficit down, addressing the balance of payments, etc. - but that Labour is better at looking after them personally - living wage, maintaining employment, etc. That fits with EdM's consistently better ratings than Cameron's in being "in touch with problems of people like me".

    Let's not waste time arguing whether they're correct. But it looks as though the Eds' "Falling living standards" push is having an impact. Osborne's jubilation over statistics that aren't reflected in people's actual experience strikes a false note.

    Nick

    Ed's "Falling living standards" push is as short sighted as their "Too far, too fast" line in 2010. It is not so much jumping on a bandwagon as catching a non-stop train going in the wrong direction.

    Improvements in living standards are coincident economic indicators. They follow other economic changes and are coincident with periods of sustained economic growth. George Osborne will not need to continue to outperform all the UK's major competitors, as he has on growth, for living standards to improve as a consequence of a cyclical period of sustained economic growth.

    So like the two Eds' line on austerity, their new line on living standards will be overcome by obvious and tangible outcomes, making them "wrong again" on a fundamental line of opposition attack.

    And before you come back with the difference between perception and reality, you should note that 'consumer expectations' are generally considered to be the last of the leading economic indicators. When indices of consumer expectations turn up - as has been the case over the past few months - then this is interpreted by economists as being a confirmation of an economic upturn and the beginning of a sustained period of on trend growth.

    Ed Balls should know all this so why he is pursuing this line of attack is beyond comprehension. Maybe he thinks the electorate are idiots? He was after all educated at Keble and Harvard.



  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    A vicious war of words erupted on Twitter today as two former Labour spin doctors clashed over the publication of a tell-all memoir.

    Alastair Campbell publicly lampooned Damian McBride for the “sickening” decision to serialise excerpts from his book, Power Trip, in a newspaper on the eve of a crucial Labour party conference. The Downing Street former director of communications said he would “not be able to live with himself” had he allowed Labour to be “damaged” in such a way.

    In response to the publication in the Daily Mail this week of segments of the political memoir – reportedly for a fee of £130,000 – Mr Campbell wrote on the social networking site: “I do not blame the Mail for buying Labour memoirs, but cannot respect Labour people who sell them knowing they are being bought to damage”.

    He went on to attack Mr McBride for his lack of “principles”, lack of “morals” and described the move as a “red line” – adding: “You really are odious. I do hope you dare to go to conference.” http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3875673.ece
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @LabourList: We've updated @haykirstin's list of fringe events with no female speakers http://labli.st/1dv1M20
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RobbieGibb: @GuidoFawkes Damian on the Daily Politics on Tuesday with @afneil
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    OllyT said:

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    Not on the BBC. You're always on a Question Time winner if you've got Thatcher on your bingo card.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    OllyT said:

    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    That's the difference between the Tories and Labour, Olly.

    Both Major and Brown suffered "external shocks" to the economy.

    Major suffered Black Wednesday and the ERM exit. He responded by delivering the highest level of growth over his term of office since the war.

    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    That's what the voters will remember, Olly.

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    AveryLP said:


    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    You may not have noticed but Brown has been out of power since 2010, Avery.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Plato said:

    A vicious war of words erupted on Twitter today as two former Labour spin doctors clashed over the publication of a tell-all memoir.

    Alastair Campbell publicly lampooned Damian McBride for the “sickening” decision to serialise excerpts from his book, Power Trip, in a newspaper on the eve of a crucial Labour party conference. The Downing Street former director of communications said he would “not be able to live with himself” had he allowed Labour to be “damaged” in such a way.

    In response to the publication in the Daily Mail this week of segments of the political memoir – reportedly for a fee of £130,000 – Mr Campbell wrote on the social networking site: “I do not blame the Mail for buying Labour memoirs, but cannot respect Labour people who sell them knowing they are being bought to damage”.

    He went on to attack Mr McBride for his lack of “principles”, lack of “morals” and described the move as a “red line” – adding: “You really are odious. I do hope you dare to go to conference.” http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3875673.ece

    If you believe it, apparently the serialisation rights were bid on by seven papers. Not all of them can be right-wing.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    SeanT said:

    fpt tim

    "You'd be closer to a two bed flat in a falling or static market, why is that difficult to understand?
    Unless you are planning to move out of London you'd be closer to what you want without house price inflation"

    I understand it, dummy. You do not. My hope is that London will continue to boom so I can use my present property investment in London to make further investments elsewhere, in cheaper markets (southern Sicily perhaps). And yes, at some point, I imagine i will retire and move somewhere sunnier and less pricey, realising my profit.

    It's a gamble, but it's not one I could make if I was stuck in a market like Liverpool with lower, and falling, house prices.

    Sean

    Here is the suitably named Palazzo Hedone in Ragusa awaiting your retirement.

    http://bit.ly/19se1YT

    Should only take a couple more quarters of central London property bubble for you to be able to afford it as a holiday home.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    OllyT said:

    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    Because, in reality, that was a political embarassment than an economic disaster
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,639
    So UKIP on 17% with Cameron saying they need to be on less than 5% for him to have any chance of winning a majority.
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    AveryLP said:

    OllyT said:

    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    That's the difference between the Tories and Labour, Olly.

    Both Major and Brown suffered "external shocks" to the economy.

    Major suffered Black Wednesday and the ERM exit. He responded by delivering the highest level of growth over his term of office since the war.

    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    That's what the voters will remember, Olly.

    And yet Cameron and Osborne regarded the Brownian economy as the apogee of achievement rather than that of the 1990s.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    AveryLP said:

    Ed Balls should know all this so why he is pursuing this line of attack is beyond comprehension. Maybe he thinks the electorate are idiots? He was after all educated at Keble and Harvard.

    What line would you take as shadow chancellor? I'm not joking, I'm genuinely interested.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336

    On topic. There does seem to be some past polling where papers that want one party in power end up with polling results that support their belief. The Mirror and the Observer are Labour supporters. We shall see if the next ICM shows some Labour leads of 10+.

    Um...ICM is published by the Guardian, which most would agree is a Labour-leaning paper? Conversely, YouGov, which for a long time showed larger Labour leads, is published by the Sun.

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    On topic. There does seem to be some past polling where papers that want one party in power end up with polling results that support their belief. The Mirror and the Observer are Labour supporters. We shall see if the next ICM shows some Labour leads of 10+.

    Um...ICM is published by the Guardian, which most would agree is a Labour-leaning paper? Conversely, YouGov, which for a long time showed larger Labour leads, is published by the Sun.
    Nick, I trust ICM and Yougov more. But the Mirror is a very very partisan paper for Labour that is not replicated by any paper for the Conservatives.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    SeanT said:

    Excuse the lapse into sentimentality - I've got a cold and I'm on Barolo and Sudafed - but as she has reached 7 years old I have realised I LIKE my daughter.

    Of course I love her, she's my daughter. But now I LIKE her too. She's funny, clever, quirky and sensitive.

    Weird. A rounded human.

    Normal cynical service will now be resumed.

    Yes, we have been suspecting a human streak in you for some time. Genuinely glad for you.

    Idle curiosity, though - do you ever get annoyed with her, and if so do you tell her off with paragraphs of fury like on pb, telling her she's a stupid moron who for two pence you'd sell to cannibals in Papua New Guinea? Or do you say, "Um, maybe don't do that, darling" like a liberal Guardian parent?

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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    On topic. There does seem to be some past polling where papers that want one party in power end up with polling results that support their belief. The Mirror and the Observer are Labour supporters. We shall see if the next ICM shows some Labour leads of 10+.

    Um...ICM is published by the Guardian, which most would agree is a Labour-leaning paper? Conversely, YouGov, which for a long time showed larger Labour leads, is published by the Sun.
    Nick, I trust ICM and Yougov more. But the Mirror is a very very partisan paper for Labour that is not replicated by any paper for the Conservatives.
    Didn't we get the BPC and publication of tables, transparency of methodology etc to avoid this kind of suspicion?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,639
    I wish GMS and Infratest dimap would conduct new polls:

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    SeanT said:

    AveryLP said:

    The only explanation that seems to fit the data is that there is a significant slice of people who think the Tories are best at managing the economy in an impersonal sense - getting the deficit down, addressing the balance of payments, etc. - but that Labour is better at looking after them personally - living wage, maintaining employment, etc. That fits with EdM's consistently better ratings than Cameron's in being "in touch with problems of people like me".

    Let's not waste time arguing whether they're correct. But it looks as though the Eds' "Falling living standards" push is having an impact. Osborne's jubilation over statistics that aren't reflected in people's actual experience strikes a false note.

    Nick

    Ed's "Falling living standards" push is as short sighted as their "Too far, too fast" line in 2010. It is not so much jumping on a bandwagon as catching a non-stop train going in the wrong direction.





    No. Falling Living Standards is the best line of attack for Labour, as the economy recovers, not least because it is true, for enough people, to win them the election.

    It might not work (people often vote right in times of austerity); Miliband and Balls are also highly implausible. But it is definitely the best offensive strategy in the circs.
    The point I am making Sean is that between now and the GE at every periodic release of economic metrics on living standards there is likely to be an uptick.

    So like the GDP path, the two Eds will waits in unrelieved suspense for bad news to arrive. And what happens:

    - The predicted triple dip never arrives.

    - The UK grows while the rest of the EU sinks

    - The double dip is written out of the books by an ONS revision

    - The UK grows not only faster than all EU countries but Japan and the US as well.

    Canute sat at the sea's edge to prove to his people that a King, even with divine powers, could not alter the ebb and flow of the tide.

    The two Eds together are not as wise as good old Knut.

    They have decided that between them they can defy the natural law and logic of economic ebb and flow. They have chosen to sit on sea's edge when the tide is coming in. It is the wrong call.



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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MShapland: That outward, modern, responsible One Nation Labour Party in full: IMMIGRANT WORKER DOG WHISTLE! 1970S SOCALISM! SPEND ALL THE THINGS #lab13

    @Greg_Callus: Miliband leading on increasing NMW fines from £5k to £50k. Harder to think of a less-effective policy that could actually be made a headline
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @gabyhinsliff: Obs: Ed Mili says he complained to Brown about what McBride was doing http://t.co/Jtkcmz57a3 (ie, he had a pretty good idea)
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    OllyT said:

    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    That's the difference between the Tories and Labour, Olly.

    Both Major and Brown suffered "external shocks" to the economy.

    Major suffered Black Wednesday and the ERM exit. He responded by delivering the highest level of growth over his term of office since the war.

    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    That's what the voters will remember, Olly.

    And yet Cameron and Osborne regarded the Brownian economy as the apogee of achievement rather than that of the 1990s.
    They were learning, ar.

    It is best to disregard youthful folly and misplaced adulation when assessing the acts and art of the mature.

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    I'd like to see a few more Yougov polls plus ICM. At the monet the ddisparity between UKIP and these two is so great that it simply doesn't make sense only in that the Labour vote is about the same between the three polls but the Conservative vote is wildly different.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    AveryLP said:


    The point I am making Sean is that between now and the GE at every periodic release of economic metrics on living standards there is likely to be an uptick.

    Millions of people will see their living standards fall regardless of your take on ONS releases. Labour's message will speak to them. I cant see why it would put off anyone who is doing well particularly. It sounds like a sensible line to take to me.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Scott_P said:

    @MShapland: That outward, modern, responsible One Nation Labour Party in full: IMMIGRANT WORKER DOG WHISTLE! 1970S SOCALISM! SPEND ALL THE THINGS #lab13

    @Greg_Callus: Miliband leading on increasing NMW fines from £5k to £50k. Harder to think of a less-effective policy that could actually be made a headline

    Tim should be along soon to tell us what a disgraceful policy.
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    Neil said:

    AveryLP said:


    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    You may not have noticed but Brown has been out of power since 2010, Avery.
    Indeed. Or even that Brown's response coincided with growth resuming in 2009 and continuing until Q3 2010.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    Scott_P said:

    @MShapland: That outward, modern, responsible One Nation Labour Party in full: IMMIGRANT WORKER DOG WHISTLE! 1970S SOCALISM! SPEND ALL THE THINGS #lab13

    @Greg_Callus: Miliband leading on increasing NMW fines from £5k to £50k. Harder to think of a less-effective policy that could actually be made a headline

    Your (and their) problem is what? That you believe that evasion of minimum wage regulations is a good thing, really - some sort of safety valve for the economy? I thought anti-NMW Tories had died out, but perhaps they were just hibernating?

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    Labour's latest idea:
    "Labour 'apprentice for each foreign worker' scheme"
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24190746

    I'm currently unsure what I think about it - the devil will be in the details. On the face of it, it is an interesting idea. However, will it just lead to even more subcontracting? (Yay!)

    There's also a question of what sort of highly-skilled jobs could be created for apprentices in our area of industry, where it often takes a degree-minimum (or relevant experience) to do anything productive. You cannot teach someone to design an RF chip in a couple of years, or write the software for it. Therefore the apprentice jobs might just be dogsbody testing work, or sweeping the floors.

    Other industries may vary, but Labour might be better trying to concentrate undergraduates into taking courses that industry needs - for example, giving tax breaks to companies who sponsor youths through university.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    Remember what Anthony Wells says re poll movements.

    90%+ of people won't even be aware of Labour's campaign on living standards.

    Indeed 90%+ of people won't be aware of anything any politician has said in the last few weeks.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Your (and their) problem is what? That you believe that evasion of minimum wage regulations is a good thing, really - some sort of safety valve for the economy? I thought anti-NMW Tories had died out, but perhaps they were just hibernating?

    @Greg_Callus: There's only ever been 8 prosecutions under NMW Act. http://t.co/gypZfJRm8G Bigamy, by contrast, racks up about 20/yr http://t.co/FAQdVDLsCa

    @Greg_Callus: Increasing sentences ten-fold for Bigamy (contrary to s57 Offences Against the Person Act 1861) would be a more substantive policy than this
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Which way is The Times leaning?

    @suttonnick: Sunday Times front page - "Labour plans have ‘£27bn black hole’" #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers #lab13
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,639
    "Witnesses caught up in the attack on a shopping centre in Nairobi say gunmen released shoppers who could recite an Islamic prayer."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1144892/kenya-if-you-were-muslim-they-let-you-go
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Scott_P said:

    Which way is The Times leaning?

    Ed is probably going to get the same treatment from the Murdoch press that Rudd got in Australia. But that could end up hurting the Murdoch press more than Ed. (IIRC the Times used to have the most politically balanced readership - if they do a Rudd on Labour here then they could alienate a lot of readers.)
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    Scott_P said:


    Your (and their) problem is what? That you believe that evasion of minimum wage regulations is a good thing, really - some sort of safety valve for the economy? I thought anti-NMW Tories had died out, but perhaps they were just hibernating?

    @Greg_Callus: There's only ever been 8 prosecutions under NMW Act. http://t.co/gypZfJRm8G Bigamy, by contrast, racks up about 20/yr http://t.co/FAQdVDLsCa

    @Greg_Callus: Increasing sentences ten-fold for Bigamy (contrary to s57 Offences Against the Person Act 1861) would be a more substantive policy than this
    Yes, at present authorities feel it's hardly worth pursuing as the fine is so low. Are you actually opposed to the policy or not? (You can propose an increase in the fine for bigamy too if you feel this is a related argument.)
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    Andy_JS said:

    "Witnesses caught up in the attack on a shopping centre in Nairobi say gunmen released shoppers who could recite an Islamic prayer."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1144892/kenya-if-you-were-muslim-they-let-you-go

    Allies of some of the rebel groups in Syria.
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    Good evening, everyone.

    On Campbell/McBride: whilst both despicable, I think Campbell probably edges it for 45 minutes and Dr. David Kelly (not denying his name, effectively outing him to the press).

    That said, both men ought to be put in a sack with a rooster, a dog, a snake and a weasel and then thrown into the Thames.
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    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    They would say that, wouldn't they?
    Scott_P said:

    Which way is The Times leaning?

    @suttonnick: Sunday Times front page - "Labour plans have ‘£27bn black hole’" #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers #lab13

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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    I thought anti-NMW Tories had died out, but perhaps they were just hibernating?

    The NMW was and is a terrible idea economically, but politically we are stuck with it. I feel sorry for the people that it is keeping out of a job which will not now be created.

    Well actually I say "feel sorry for" but they are probably Labour voters anyway so consider that sympathy rationed.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited September 2013
    Mr. T, that's a controversially polite four letter word.

    Mr. M, it'd be interesting to see if the growth in long-term youth unemployment coincided with the introduction of the minimum wage.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Good evening, everyone.

    On Campbell/McBride: whilst both despicable, I think Campbell probably edges it for 45 minutes and Dr. David Kelly (not denying his name, effectively outing him to the press).

    That said, both men ought to be put in a sack with a rooster, a dog, a snake and a weasel and then thrown into the Thames.

    What have the rooster, the dog, the snake and the weasel done to deserve that?

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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    SeanT said:

    Neil said:

    Scott_P said:

    Which way is The Times leaning?

    Ed is probably going to get the same treatment from the Murdoch press that Rudd got in Australia. But that could end up hurting the Murdoch press more than Ed. (IIRC the Times used to have the most politically balanced readership - if they do a Rudd on Labour here then they could alienate a lot of readers.)
    Pfft. I don't think Times readers will give a hoot if Miliband gets an editorial kicking. You forget he is one of the most derided Labour leaders of modern times. The paper will be speaking to its readers' prejudices, shared by most Britons. No one will cancel a subscription because the Times says Miliband is a dork.

    He IS a dork.


    They might get tired of hearing about it though

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    GeoffM said:

    Good evening, everyone.

    On Campbell/McBride: whilst both despicable, I think Campbell probably edges it for 45 minutes and Dr. David Kelly (not denying his name, effectively outing him to the press).

    That said, both men ought to be put in a sack with a rooster, a dog, a snake and a weasel and then thrown into the Thames.

    What have the rooster, the dog, the snake and the weasel done to deserve that?

    Even worse: there are strict penalties against polluting the Thames.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    SeanT said:

    Neil said:

    Scott_P said:

    Which way is The Times leaning?


    Ed is probably going to get the same treatment from the Murdoch press that Rudd got in Australia. But that could end up hurting the Murdoch press more than Ed. (IIRC the Times used to have the most politically balanced readership - if they do a Rudd on Labour here then they could alienate a lot of readers.)


    Pfft. I don't think Times readers will give a hoot if Miliband gets an editorial kicking. You forget he is one of the most derided Labour leaders of modern times. The paper will be speaking to its readers' prejudices, shared by most Britons. No one will cancel a subscription because the Times says Miliband is a dork.

    He IS a dork.
    Wrong I already have after the Thatcher coverage after being a long time subscriber. It has already lurched to the right
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    Mr. M/Mr. Jessop, oh, very well then.

    Put them in the same sack, no animals, and throw them in the Seine.

    [Incidentally, it's a reference to an old Roman punishment for something or other. Parricide, perhaps].
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071


    Wrong I already have after the Thatcher coverage after being a long time subscriber. It has already lurched to the right

    I am sure they miss you.

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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    AveryLP said:

    OllyT said:

    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    That's the difference between the Tories and Labour, Olly.

    Both Major and Brown suffered "external shocks" to the economy.

    Major suffered Black Wednesday and the ERM exit. He responded by delivering the highest level of growth over his term of office since the war.

    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    That's what the voters will remember, Olly.

    AveryLP said:

    OllyT said:

    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    That's the difference between the Tories and Labour, Olly.

    Both Major and Brown suffered "external shocks" to the economy.

    Major suffered Black Wednesday and the ERM exit. He responded by delivering the highest level of growth over his term of office since the war.

    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    That's what the voters will remember, Olly.

    That's just the Tory mantra they have been reciting ever since 2008, repeating it over and over doesn't mean it's true mate.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071


    Mr. M, it'd be interesting to see if the growth in long-term youth unemployment coincided with the introduction of the minimum wage.

    The NMW does have one big advantage. Around here there's always a need for messengers, handymen and general grunts. They used to move jobs every 6 months or so for the 20p or 50p an hour more that next door are paying. Now we all know what the flat market rate is because government have decreed it. So we all pay the same and save that 20p/50p.

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    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    OllyT said:

    @ AveryLP

    "Are you suggesting that voters will have forgotten the events and impact of the third Blair-Brown Labour term when they mark their ballot papers in 2015?"

    They certainly seemed to have forgotten the Black Wednesday and the Tory's ERM fiasco quickly enough

    That's the difference between the Tories and Labour, Olly.

    Both Major and Brown suffered "external shocks" to the economy.

    Major suffered Black Wednesday and the ERM exit. He responded by delivering the highest level of growth over his term of office since the war.

    Brown suffered a global banking crisis. He responded by leading the country through the deepest and longest recession since the war and virtually non-existent growth over five years.

    That's what the voters will remember, Olly.

    And yet Cameron and Osborne regarded the Brownian economy as the apogee of achievement rather than that of the 1990s.
    They were learning, ar.

    It is best to disregard youthful folly and misplaced adulation when assessing the acts and art of the mature.

    Clearly those Oxbridge PPE courses hadn't taught Cameron and Osborne the bleedin obvious fact that if you spend more money than you earn then sooner or later you're going to be in trouble.

    I suspect that they had never needed to learn that in their personal lives either.

    And judging by the national finances that Cameron and Osborne have presided over they've still not learnt that fact.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Neil said:

    Scott_P said:

    Which way is The Times leaning?


    Ed is probably going to get the same treatment from the Murdoch press that Rudd got in Australia. But that could end up hurting the Murdoch press more than Ed. (IIRC the Times used to have the most politically balanced readership - if they do a Rudd on Labour here then they could alienate a lot of readers.)


    Pfft. I don't think Times readers will give a hoot if Miliband gets an editorial kicking. You forget he is one of the most derided Labour leaders of modern times. The paper will be speaking to its readers' prejudices, shared by most Britons. No one will cancel a subscription because the Times says Miliband is a dork.

    He IS a dork.
    Wrong I already have after the Thatcher coverage after being a long time subscriber. It has already lurched to the right
    lol. What total bollocks.
    Thats what i thought and why I no longer subscribe. Ding Dong
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    Mr. Richard, indeed. However, when the choices are Tiberius, Caligula and Lucius Verus, you go for Verus, even though you'd rather have Trajan or Aurelian.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Mr. M/Mr. Jessop, oh, very well then.

    Put them in the same sack, no animals, and throw them in the Seine.

    [Incidentally, it's a reference to an old Roman punishment for something or other. Parricide, perhaps].

    It was patricide, Mr Dancer, and was indeed inventive.

    The offender was taken to the Field of Mars outside Rome, stripped and had their feet placed on two pedestals placed a couple of feet apart. The offender was then publicly whipped whilst the citizenry threw whatever objects came to hand.

    The offender was then placed in a sack with a snake, a chicken and a dog and thrown into the Tiber.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    From the Guardian article about Ed:

    " He half acknowledges that he understands what he might face from the Conservatives. "By any means necessary. That is their modus operandi, isn't it? By any means necessary.""

    I mean, really, what does it take? The party of Damien McBride about whom he was worried. The party of Campbell, Whelen and Draper. The party of Mr "making whites angry" appointed by him as a spokesman on immigration. And yet I have no doubt whatsoever that he genuinely still believes that his party is in some way morally superior.

    It's a illness. It really is.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    o/t- latest poll in Ireland has:

    FG - 25%
    FF - 21%
    SF - 18%
    Lab - 11%

    You can see why FG / FF is the favourite for next Government (5/4 with Paddy Power) as no other option looks viable but it would be a political earthquake.

    60 / 40 for the Senate to be abolished in next month's referendum, 1/3 with Paddy Power.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    CON in the 20's ? What has McBride done ?
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Scott_P said:


    Your (and their) problem is what? That you believe that evasion of minimum wage regulations is a good thing, really - some sort of safety valve for the economy? I thought anti-NMW Tories had died out, but perhaps they were just hibernating?

    @Greg_Callus: There's only ever been 8 prosecutions under NMW Act. http://t.co/gypZfJRm8G Bigamy, by contrast, racks up about 20/yr http://t.co/FAQdVDLsCa

    @Greg_Callus: Increasing sentences ten-fold for Bigamy (contrary to s57 Offences Against the Person Act 1861) would be a more substantive policy than this
    Yes, at present authorities feel it's hardly worth pursuing as the fine is so low. Are you actually opposed to the policy or not? (You can propose an increase in the fine for bigamy too if you feel this is a related argument.)
    Conservatives tough on crime except when it is themselves or their mates breaking the law .
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    GeoffM said:


    Mr. M, it'd be interesting to see if the growth in long-term youth unemployment coincided with the introduction of the minimum wage.

    The NMW does have one big advantage. Around here there's always a need for messengers, handymen and general grunts. They used to move jobs every 6 months or so for the 20p or 50p an hour more that next door are paying. Now we all know what the flat market rate is because government have decreed it. So we all pay the same and save that 20p/50p.

    So the market rate is above the minimum wage but no-one pays the market rate? I'm not an economist, but that doesn't seem right to me.
This discussion has been closed.