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After all the waiting this is a massive day for Theresa May and for the country’s relationship with Europe.

Read the full story here

Mortimer

First, like Leave.

Mortimer

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either in cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

DecrepitJohnL

Mortimer said:

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either i cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

Yes, that seems likely. May to resign, without 48 letters and a vote, if things go pear-shaped.

Dura_Ace

matt said:

We have to decide who the enemy is, what their capabilities are and will be and what urge to fight we really have. Those are all political decisions but are tied into the small-scale military-industrial complex nature of British defence policy which has frequently been little more than never mind the quality, it's a British contractor (the poster child being Nimrod MRA4). Senior officers come across as being little more than siloed territory protectors. Is there a worse named project than a "strategic defence review"?

The wider question is where do our interests really differ from, for example, the French? They have rarely been shy about force projection (for better or worse). Do we really think that they would want to restrain themselves. Is any putative the EU military little more than a method to extract money from Germany? I suspect not.

The US have already decided who their enemy is and it's China. Defending Europe is, at best, a peripheral interest in the light of their pivot to the Pacific. I could easily see a long position of the US ceding European interests to Russia to secure an alliance against the Middle Kingdom.

Ils ont partagé le monde, plus rien ne m'étonne. As the song says...

AlastairMeeks

I expect this deal will eventually pass. The absence of an alternative sea should suffice in the end.

I don’t expect a 2019 election. A referendum is more likely and that’s not likely.

HYUFD

If May cannot her Deal through Parliament as media reports made clear she will call a general election with the Deal in her manifesto

Mortimer

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

HYUFD

Mortimer said:

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either in cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

Unless she loses a no confidence vote of her MPs May is going nowhere

Stereotomy

HYUFD said:

If May cannot her Deal through Parliament as media reports made clear she will call a general election with the Deal in her manifesto

Her party might not let her

Mortimer

HYUFD said:

Mortimer said:

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either in cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

Unless she loses a no confidence vote of her MPs May is going nowhere

I don’t think it is going to happen, but just like Dave said that he wouldn’t resign if Leave won, if she loses in cabinet or parliament, she resigns. It’s the reality of politics that only slavish devotees of Wikipedia-facts and small sample polls can deny.

notme

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

It that I fully understand, and willing to hear reasons otherwise.. the claim is that the Euro is lower than what a German currency would be by itself and this facilitates competitive exports? Or is it just they make really good cars that people want to buy ?

felix

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

Foxy would be saying something very different if they were UK figures.

kinabalu

The deal will surely pass. I cannot see there being sufficient MPs willing to risk either no deal or no brexit. I like the 1.7 on betfair that we do leave on the due date.

Pulpstar

Both the hardcore remainers and leavers boiling my piss this morning.

Nemtynakht

I don’t understand Mikes comment about not seeing the deal. If it has been made clear that a red line for one side or the other had been crossed then the rest of the agreement could offer free unicorns and it wouldn’t matter. I canmot understand why we would sign up to a permanent disadvantageous backstop. It ties our hands for the trade agreement negotiations and gives the EU probably our cash without any say. If this is the deal then it should come third place behind no deal - we would suffer but be in control from now on, then remain - we would have a voice at the table and continued access.

I didn’t vote leave as I didn’t think it was wotrth the risk econimically and I am sure it will hurt my finances, but if the backstop is permanent it is not a deal worth signing. The EU have already shown themselves to be untrustworthy in these negotiations using the Good Friday Agrement and the spectre of terrorism against the U.K. All the things that made me consider voting to leave - sovereignty, democratic accountability, and uneven playing fields have proven to be true, and the economic projections of Project Fear have not been realised. A sad day.

Pulpstar

notme said:

Or is it just they make really good cars that people want to buy ?

The cars, I understand, are good.

HYUFD

Stereotomy said:

HYUFD said:

If May cannot her Deal through Parliament as media reports made clear she will call a general election with the Deal in her manifesto

Her party might not let her

She only needs 50.1% of Tory MPs and she is safe for a year well past Brexit

DecrepitJohnL

HYUFD said:

Mortimer said:

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either in cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

Unless she loses a no confidence vote of her MPs May is going nowhere

They said that (mutatis mutandis) about Mrs Thatcher, who won the vote but still had to go.

MarqueeMark

kinabalu said:

The deal will surely pass. I cannot see there being sufficient MPs willing to risk either no deal or no brexit. I like the 1.7 on betfair that we do leave on the due date.

Bold prediction. Requires an awful lot of Labour MPs to go against their leadership....

HYUFD

Mortimer said:

HYUFD said:

Mortimer said:

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either in cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

Unless she loses a no confidence vote of her MPs May is going nowhere

I don’t think it is going to happen, but just like Dave said that he wouldn’t resign if Leave won, if she loses in cabinet or parliament, she resigns. It’s the reality of politics that only slavish devotees of Wikipedia-facts and small sample polls can deny.

May will plough on regardless, she has the hide of a rhino and is as bloody minded as Corbyn who stayed leader with 2/3 of his MPs against him

Pulpstar

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

Eh ? What sort of economy should a country have ?

HYUFD

DecrepitJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

Mortimer said:

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either in cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

Unless she loses a no confidence vote of her MPs May is going nowhere

They said that (mutatis mutandis) about Mrs Thatcher, who won the vote but still had to go.

Thatcher would have stayed under current rules as there could be no second ballot after she won the first

Pulpstar

Do we have a timetable for expected developments now. I note Raab has made his 21st deadline ! Huzzah !

Stereotomy

HYUFD said:

Stereotomy said:

HYUFD said:

If May cannot her Deal through Parliament as media reports made clear she will call a general election with the Deal in her manifesto

Her party might not let her

She only needs 50.1% of Tory MPs and she is safe for a year well past Brexit

They can vote against an election. And 50.1% may not be a small ask when she's trying to plunge them into a GE they dread

TOPPING

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING: Because the idea of it allows traitors, cowards, and anyone else who would shit themselves at the thought of actually serving their country, a convenient and safe boogeyman to rail against.

Which country?

The UK.

Mortimer

Pulpstar said:

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

Eh ? What sort of economy should a country have ?

Mr Domestic Demand says hello.

Dura_Ace

Pulpstar said:

notme said:

Or is it just they make really good cars that people want to buy ?

The cars, I understand, are good.

I just bought an E93 M3. There's something wrong with me.

timmo

notme said:

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

It that I fully understand, and willing to hear reasons otherwise.. the claim is that the Euro is lower than what a German currency would be by itself and this facilitates competitive exports? Or is it just they make really good cars that people want to buy ?

They need the Euro to devalue

OblitusSumMe

A good day to one and all, whatever my differences of opinion with you.

I cannot fathom Theresa May. She spends ages instilling the mantra, "no deal is better than a bad deal" into the national consciousness and then sets up a situation where her main argument for her deal is that, "any deal is better than no deal and this deal is the only deal."

Perhaps she is simply a better chess player than I because I rather think she has set herself up to fail with that.

kjh

If, and it is a big if, this gets past the Cabinet and the EU, surely the focus is all on Labour. As we all know Corbyn is conflicted and just kept out of this, but this will be a crunch point whatever Labour does. If they support May or worse, abstain or split all over the place they will be hated by the majority of their supporters. But voting against May sends a pointed message to their heartland leave constituencies, although I doubt they will lose these.

I can't see a good result for them on this. They have been able to avoid this for 2 years.

Foxy

Mortimer said:

Pulpstar said:

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

Eh ? What sort of economy should a country have ?

Mr Domestic Demand says hello.

Is that the brother of consumer debt and balance of payments deficit?

John_M

notme said:

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

It that I fully understand, and willing to hear reasons otherwise.. the claim is that the Euro is lower than what a German currency would be by itself and this facilitates competitive exports? Or is it just they make really good cars that people want to buy ?

The Euro is really just an undervalued DM in French drag. It certainly doesn't hurt German competitiveness. All economies have weaknesses. Ours is, obvs, our reliance on the great British spendthrift consumer. Germany's is their reliance on capital good exports, which is heavily dependent on global economic cycles.

TOPPING

OblitusSumMe said:

A good day to one and all, whatever my differences of opinion with you.

I cannot fathom Theresa May. She spends ages instilling the mantra, "no deal is better than a bad deal" into the national consciousness and then sets up a situation where her main argument for her deal is that, "any deal is better than no deal and this deal is the only deal."

Perhaps she is simply a better chess player than I because I rather think she has set herself up to fail with that.

It was always an absurdity, and called out for that reason from the start.

No deal = a deal = the worst deal = worse than the current deal.

Which is of course also a deal.

matt

Dura_Ace said:

matt said:

We have to decide who the enemy is, what their capabilities are and will be and what urge to fight we really have. Those are all political decisions but are tied into the small-scale military-industrial complex nature of British defence policy which has frequently been little more than never mind the quality, it's a British contractor (the poster child being Nimrod MRA4). Senior officers come across as being little more than siloed territory protectors. Is there a worse named project than a "strategic defence review"?

The wider question is where do our interests really differ from, for example, the French? They have rarely been shy about force projection (for better or worse). Do we really think that they would want to restrain themselves. Is any putative the EU military little more than a method to extract money from Germany? I suspect not.

The US have already decided who their enemy is and it's China. Defending Europe is, at best, a peripheral interest in the light of their pivot to the Pacific. I could easily see a long position of the US ceding European interests to Russia to secure an alliance against the Middle Kingdom.

Ils ont partagé le monde, plus rien ne m'étonne. As the song says...

I agree about the US but what have we decided. Pretensions to global force projection means sub-optimal force everywhere.

MarqueeMark

Foxy said:

Mortimer said:

Pulpstar said:

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

Eh ? What sort of economy should a country have ?

Mr Domestic Demand says hello.

Is that the brother of consumer debt and balance of payments deficit?

Don't we have the mother of balance of payment deficits?

Pulpstar

Foxy said:

Mortimer said:

Pulpstar said:

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

Eh ? What sort of economy should a country have ?

Mr Domestic Demand says hello.

Is that the brother of consumer debt and balance of payments deficit?

Taking on debt to fund current consumption seems to b a hobby of Britain.

DecrepitJohnL

HYUFD said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

Mortimer said:

I don’t see an election next year myself. If May loses either in cabinet or parliament, and I don’t think she will, she goes, not the Govt.

Unless she loses a no confidence vote of her MPs May is going nowhere

They said that (mutatis mutandis) about Mrs Thatcher, who won the vote but still had to go.

Thatcher would have stayed under current rules as there could be no second ballot after she won the first

It was the men in grey suits (or the Cabinet) which persuaded Mrs Thatcher it was best to resign. Anyway, we shall see. I'd expect Theresa May to bow to the inevitable rather than plunge the party over the cliff.

Pulpstar

Arf "Je vais revenir" - Hollande

https://twitter.com/lesinrocks/status/1062636924714704897

Alistair

OblitusSumMe said:

A good day to one and all, whatever my differences of opinion with you.

I cannot fathom Theresa May. She spends ages instilling the mantra, "no deal is better than a bad deal" into the national consciousness and then sets up a situation where her main argument for her deal is that, "any deal is better than no deal and this deal is the only deal."

Perhaps she is simply a better chess player than I because I rather think she has set herself up to fail with that.

As I stated over a year ago May has dragged the Brexiters into BINO and in the end they will say please and thank you to May.

Foxy

Pulpstar said:

Foxy said:

Mortimer said:

Pulpstar said:

Mortimer said:

FPT:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

currystar said:

another_richard said:

As I've been pointing out for a while the German economy has been struggling:

' Germany's economy contracted in the third quarter of the year, dented by weaker exports, figures have shown.

Europe's largest economy shrank by 0.2% between July and September, as global trade disputes had a knock-on effect for Europe's largest economy.

It was the economy's first quarter-on-quarter fall since 2015. '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46205805

The Japanese economy also shrank in Q3.

Meanwhile if the fall in the price of oil is maintained there should be a drop in UK inflation.

So whilst the UK economy grew by 0.6% , the German economy shrunk by 0.2%, and apparently this is the most incompetent government in history.

It is only one quarter.

But it seemed clear to me that with disruptions to trade plus the willingness of German people to cut their spending that the German economy would struggle to grow.

The German economy is fine, a periodic slowdown is part of the normal business cycle, and it is not surprising that the drop in Chinese purchasing affects major manufacturing exporters.

Lol. There are no tanks in Baghdad.

The problem with the German economy IS that it is overeliant on export markets.

Eh ? What sort of economy should a country have ?

Mr Domestic Demand says hello.

Is that the brother of consumer debt and balance of payments deficit?

Taking on debt to fund current consumption seems to b a hobby of Britain.

Yes, it is why the fundamentals of the German economy are more sound than our own, ageing population excepted.

Foxy

Alistair said:

OblitusSumMe said:

A good day to one and all, whatever my differences of opinion with you.

I cannot fathom Theresa May. She spends ages instilling the mantra, "no deal is better than a bad deal" into the national consciousness and then sets up a situation where her main argument for her deal is that, "any deal is better than no deal and this deal is the only deal."

Perhaps she is simply a better chess player than I because I rather think she has set herself up to fail with that.

As I stated over a year ago May has dragged the Brexiters into BINO and in the end they will say please and thank you to May.

I have always said that Brexit will go with a whimper rather than a bang.

The devil is in the detail of course...

SouthamObserver

‪Labour needs May’s deal to get through Parliament without its support but with the Tories split. Anything else is problematic and potentially disastrous. But it’s hard to see how it happens.‬

TheScreamingEagles

Every Tory MP should listen to William Hague.

Foxy

SouthamObserver said:

‪Labour needs May’s deal to get through Parliament without its support but with the Tories split. Anything else is problematic and potentially disastrous. But it’s hard to see how it happens.‬

I don't think this is a bad deal as far as Labour is concerned.

Nigelb

Dura_Ace said:

matt said:

We have to decide who the enemy is, what their capabilities are and will be and what urge to fight we really have. Those are all political decisions but are tied into the small-scale military-industrial complex nature of British defence policy which has frequently been little more than never mind the quality, it's a British contractor (the poster child being Nimrod MRA4). Senior officers come across as being little more than siloed territory protectors. Is there a worse named project than a "strategic defence review"?

The wider question is where do our interests really differ from, for example, the French? They have rarely been shy about force projection (for better or worse). Do we really think that they would want to restrain themselves. Is any putative the EU military little more than a method to extract money from Germany? I suspect not.

The US have already decided who their enemy is and it's China...

But do they have any friends ?

Trump appears to be pissed off with everyone (apart form Putin).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/five-days-of-fury-inside-trumps-paris-temper-election-woes-and-staff-upheaval/2018/11/13/e90b7cba-e69e-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html
As he jetted to Paris last Friday, President Trump received a congratulatory phone call aboard Air Force One. British Prime Minister Theresa May was calling to celebrate the Republican Party’s wins in the midterm elections — never mind that Democrats seized control of the House — but her appeal to the American president’s vanity was met with an ornery outburst.

Trump berated May for Britain not doing enough, in his assessment, to contain Iran. He questioned her over Brexit and complained about the trade deals he sees as unfair with European countries. May has endured Trump’s churlish temper before, but still her aides were shaken by his especially foul mood, according to U.S. and European officials briefed on the conversation....

Mortimer

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

‪Labour needs May’s deal to get through Parliament without its support but with the Tories split. Anything else is problematic and potentially disastrous. But it’s hard to see how it happens.‬

I don't think this is a bad deal as far as Labour is concerned.

the @Foxy equivalent of 'Its going to be a terrible night for the Tories'.

SandyRentool

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Tory MP should listen to William Hague.

'Out of Europe but still rrrrruuuuunnnn by Europe'

SouthamObserver

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

‪Labour needs May’s deal to get through Parliament without its support but with the Tories split. Anything else is problematic and potentially disastrous. But it’s hard to see how it happens.‬

I don't think this is a bad deal as far as Labour is concerned.

May has got the only deal her red lines allowed her to get. For non-ideological Remainers, it presents few real problems. We’ll be taking rules from an entity that largely makes good rules. But politically I don’t see how Labour can back it. I guess abstention may be possible.

TheScreamingEagles

SouthamObserver said:

Foxy said:

SouthamObserver said:

‪Labour needs May’s deal to get through Parliament without its support but with the Tories split. Anything else is problematic and potentially disastrous. But it’s hard to see how it happens.‬

I don't think this is a bad deal as far as Labour is concerned.

May has got the only deal her red lines allowed her to get. For non-ideological Remainers, it presents few real problems. We’ll be taking rules from an entity that largely makes good rules. But politically I don’t see how Labour can back it. I guess abstention may be possible.

‪Today might be a good day for someone to post the stat of how many times Corbyn voted with the Tories. ‬

TheScreamingEagles

Daniel Hannan is a twat if any of you hadn’t realised already.

https://twitter.com/lawdavf/status/1062643220109242368?s=21

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1062639623892070400

Scott_P

TheScreamingEagles said:

Daniel Hannan is a twat if any of you hadn’t realised already.

https://twitter.com/lawdavf/status/1062643220109242368?s=21

https://twitter.com/raaleh/status/1062639105945845760

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1062643744720277505

TheWhiteRabbit

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1062643744720277505

Clearly any talk of a deal on Galileo has been overshadowed

MarqueeMark

SouthamObserver said:

‪Labour needs May’s deal to get through Parliament without its support but with the Tories split. Anything else is problematic and potentially disastrous. But it’s hard to see how it happens.‬

The only way I can see is this: Labour says May's Deal (keeping it personal) is a buffet of shit sandwiches and they would (of course) have got a better deal for Britain (exactly how never spelt out).

However, whilst they cannot support it, the notion of it failing entirely and throwing us into No Deal Brexit is just too disastrous. The notion of a second referendum is way too uncertain in its potential outcome - and could result in the Tories having delivered a mandate for No Deal Brexit. Therefore, to do its duty by Britain, the Labour Party will not get in the way of May's Deal for Brexit. It will Whip its MPs to abstain on the deal.

The Conservative Party will then be free to tear itself apart over Europe again. If it chooses to go with No Deal Brexit, they will own it. And its consequences.

RochdalePioneers

On a point of order can someone post NEW THREAD when one starts? Many of us still posting on the other one until a few minutes ago

RobinWiggs

I think the govt comms strategy on this is canny.

Let the ultras on both sides and the mediaevalists of the DUP vent their spleen in the first cycle - with only the occasional moderate voice like Hague to ensure the initial narrative doesn't kill off the deal before it breathes life (the ultras key objective atm).

This allows the 2/3rd of parliament and the country that is reasonably sane to see exactly who they would be trooping through the lobbies with if they oppose this deal (as if they didn't already know what nutters Soubry and Moggy are).

It leaves the Moggites with little new to say in the next news cycle... they opposed it before they even saw the detail. Hardly considered action in the national interest.

Then with all/almost all of the cabinet on side, the real push from govt begins, choregraphed with the EU. It will be powerful, and much of it aimed at the long-suffering/bored/reasonable public.

I think Labour will be hard pressed to argue in that scenario that voting the deal down is in the national interest and not narrow party interest - particularly when May is seen to be calling the bluff of the ultras.

I could be wrong. But it's going to be great to watch the next couple of weeks. If Mrs May fails, she will go down as a failure regardless of the merits. If the pulls this off, she will (quite rightly) be seen in a much more positive light and receive credit for bridging the seemingly impossible in the face on unceasing unpleasantness.

Alistair

TheScreamingEagles said:

Daniel Hannan is a twat if any of you hadn’t realised already.

https://twitter.com/lawdavf/status/1062643220109242368?s=21

I am genuinely proud I am blocked by him.

stjohn

For the record, I placed a £20 bet here at 6/1 with "archer from australia" that May would call a General Election in an attempt to get her deal approved by the electorate, having failed to get the approval of parliament. Well archer has subsequently been banned from the site so I am unilaterally declaring the bet void.

williamglenn

If Trump ever needs to create a major distraction...

https://www.newsweek.com/us-military-could-invade-mexico-stop-migrant-caravan-ann-coulter-says-1190365

onservative political commentator Ann Coulter has suggested that the U.S. military should invade Mexico to stop Central American migrants seeking asylum in the U.S. from reaching the U.S. border.

Pulpstar

Alistair said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Daniel Hannan is a twat if any of you hadn’t realised already.

https://twitter.com/lawdavf/status/1062643220109242368?s=21

I am genuinely proud I am blocked by him.

Han Dodges is the only bod that's blocked me on twitter when I called him out on his bullshit "private polling" a few years back.

JosiasJessop

One thing is sadly clear: even if this deal does get agreed in cabinet, and through parliament, the snot-nosed, bigoted, pseudo-nationalistic Brexiteers won't be satisfied and will screech and scream like the petulant children they are.

Just as they have for the last three decades. Their sickness will infect British politics even with this deal.

God help us.

stjohn

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1062639623892070400

It could be that he now has the 48 letters.

SouthamObserver

Buy shares in Betrayal!! :-D

TheWhiteRabbit

stjohn said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1062639623892070400

It could be that he now has the 48 letters.

no way he pulls the trigger here

MarqueeMark

JosiasJessop said:

One thing is sadly clear: even if this deal does get agreed in cabinet, and through parliament, the snot-nosed, bigoted, pseudo-nationalistic Brexiteers won't be satisfied and will screech and scream like the petulant children they are.

Just as they have for the last three decades. Their sickness will infect British politics even with this deal.

God help us.

Whilst the Europhiles will still push their line that Brussels Knows Best.

The failure of May's Deal will be that it did not put the matter to rest.

notme

RobinWiggs said:

I think the govt comms strategy on this is canny.

Let the ultras on both sides and the mediaevalists of the DUP vent their spleen in the first cycle - with only the occasional moderate voice like Hague to ensure the initial narrative doesn't kill off the deal before it breathes life (the ultras key objective atm).

This allows the 2/3rd of parliament and the country that is reasonably sane to see exactly who they would be trooping through the lobbies with if they oppose this deal (as if they didn't already know what nutters Soubry and Moggy are).

It leaves the Moggites with little new to say in the next news cycle... they opposed it before they even saw the detail. Hardly considered action in the national interest.

Then with all/almost all of the cabinet on side, the real push from govt begins, choregraphed with the EU. It will be powerful, and much of it aimed at the long-suffering/bored/reasonable public.

I think Labour will be hard pressed to argue in that scenario that voting the deal down is in the national interest and not narrow party interest - particularly when May is seen to be calling the bluff of the ultras.

I could be wrong. But it's going to be great to watch the next couple of weeks. If Mrs May fails, she will go down as a failure regardless of the merits. If the pulls this off, she will (quite rightly) be seen in a much more positive light and receive credit for bridging the seemingly impossible in the face on unceasing unpleasantness.

Yes we do keep forgetting that it isn’t the ultra leavers or remainers that compose of the mildly disinterested British population. She’s playing the line of leaving the EU and trying to do it with as little disruption as possible. She’ll get away with it and come out stronger as long as we are no longer pumping in net £9 billion a year.

David_Evershed

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

Johnson would then stand a good chance of being in the last two with May and the membership would be more likely to vote for Johnson in the run off.

stjohn

TheWhiteRabbit said:

stjohn said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1062639623892070400

It could be that he now has the 48 letters.

no way he pulls the trigger here

Does he have any choice/discretion?

williamglenn

David_Evershed said:

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

I don't think such a contest is possible. If May is deposed, she can't be a candidate.

Stereotomy

There's at least one glimmer of hope today: maybe Grayling will resign!

Big_G_NorthWales

David_Evershed said:

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

That is not possible. If TM loses a vnoc she cannot stand in the following leadership election

bigjohnowls

I have to say I am OK with the shit deal.

Much better than No Deal

A people's vote leave would win by a bigger margin IMO.

Not worth the risk.

TheWhiteRabbit

stjohn said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

stjohn said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1062639623892070400

It could be that he now has the 48 letters.

no way he pulls the trigger here

Does he have any choice/discretion?

on paper no, in practice absolutely. Hence why only he knows the numbers...

MarqueeMark

TheWhiteRabbit said:

stjohn said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1062639623892070400

It could be that he now has the 48 letters.

no way he pulls the trigger here

Does he have the option not to? Resign, maybe - and wait for a successor to be appointed/elected?

notme

Big_G_NorthWales said:

David_Evershed said:

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

That is not possible. If TM loses a vnoc she cannot stand in the following leadership election

Yup. I have a friend on the 1922 committee. He confirms this.

stjohn

TheWhiteRabbit said:

stjohn said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

stjohn said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1062639623892070400

It could be that he now has the 48 letters.

no way he pulls the trigger here

Does he have any choice/discretion?

on paper no, in practice absolutely. Hence why only he knows the numbers...

Yes but if the 48 have made themselves known to each other, surely they can force his hand?

Fenster

bigjohnowls said:

I have to say I am OK with the shit deal.

Much better than No Deal

A people's vote leave would win by a bigger margin IMO.

Not worth the risk.

Agree - the hard Brexiteers have to accept this is the best they can get. The Hard Remainers have to weigh up the risk of losing more heavily (I think they would).

MarqueeMark

williamglenn said:

David_Evershed said:

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

I don't think such a contest is possible. If May is deposed, she can't be a candidate.

Can May call a back me or sack me contest, as Major did? Unsure of the rules on that.....

Alanbrooke

MarqueeMark said:

JosiasJessop said:

One thing is sadly clear: even if this deal does get agreed in cabinet, and through parliament, the snot-nosed, bigoted, pseudo-nationalistic Brexiteers won't be satisfied and will screech and scream like the petulant children they are.

Just as they have for the last three decades. Their sickness will infect British politics even with this deal.

God help us.

Whilst the Europhiles will still push their line that Brussels Knows Best.

The failure of May's Deal will be that it did not put the matter to rest.

personally I cant see how the matter can be put to rest at one go

Brexit is a process not an event

Once the froth has died down and the main actors have retired we will drift away should we wish to. Likewise if the deal is too onesided it cannot rest and there will come a time when the EU has different priorities or needs UK support when a quid pro quo will change it.

Nothing in human affairs is permanent bar death and taxes

Pulpstar

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-46200010

Schrodinger's Customs Union:

https://twitter.com/DavidDavisMP/status/1062439219447107584

Blackford (BBC)

"It is about the government’s desire to fundamentally take us out of the Single Market and the Customs Union."

RochdalePioneers

stjohn said:

For the record, I placed a £20 bet here at 6/1 with "archer from australia" that May would call a General Election in an attempt to get her deal approved by the electorate, having failed to get the approval of parliament. Well archer has subsequently been banned from the site so I am unilaterally declaring the bet void.

Archer got banned?

But he had important first hand insight as to how his beloved hard Brexit would benefit him and us...

williamglenn

MarqueeMark said:

williamglenn said:

David_Evershed said:

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

I don't think such a contest is possible. If May is deposed, she can't be a candidate.

Can May call a back me or sack me contest, as Major did? Unsure of the rules on that.....

I think the only variant of that would be if she encouraged loyal MPs to put in the letters to force a confidence vote.

MarqueeMark

notme said:

RobinWiggs said:

I think the govt comms strategy on this is canny.

Let the ultras on both sides and the mediaevalists of the DUP vent their spleen in the first cycle - with only the occasional moderate voice like Hague to ensure the initial narrative doesn't kill off the deal before it breathes life (the ultras key objective atm).

This allows the 2/3rd of parliament and the country that is reasonably sane to see exactly who they would be trooping through the lobbies with if they oppose this deal (as if they didn't already know what nutters Soubry and Moggy are).

It leaves the Moggites with little new to say in the next news cycle... they opposed it before they even saw the detail. Hardly considered action in the national interest.

Then with all/almost all of the cabinet on side, the real push from govt begins, choregraphed with the EU. It will be powerful, and much of it aimed at the long-suffering/bored/reasonable public.

I think Labour will be hard pressed to argue in that scenario that voting the deal down is in the national interest and not narrow party interest - particularly when May is seen to be calling the bluff of the ultras.

I could be wrong. But it's going to be great to watch the next couple of weeks. If Mrs May fails, she will go down as a failure regardless of the merits. If the pulls this off, she will (quite rightly) be seen in a much more positive light and receive credit for bridging the seemingly impossible in the face on unceasing unpleasantness.

Yes we do keep forgetting that it isn’t the ultra leavers or remainers that compose of the mildly disinterested British population. She’s playing the line of leaving the EU and trying to do it with as little disruption as possible. She’ll get away with it and come out stronger as long as we are no longer pumping in net £9 billion a year.

Except one of the little details yet to emerge is how much more, for how much longer.....

Stereotomy

RobinWiggs said:

I think the govt comms strategy on this is canny.

Let the ultras on both sides and the mediaevalists of the DUP vent their spleen in the first cycle - with only the occasional moderate voice like Hague to ensure the initial narrative doesn't kill off the deal before it breathes life (the ultras key objective atm).

This allows the 2/3rd of parliament and the country that is reasonably sane to see exactly who they would be trooping through the lobbies with if they oppose this deal (as if they didn't already know what nutters Soubry and Moggy are).

It leaves the Moggites with little new to say in the next news cycle... they opposed it before they even saw the detail. Hardly considered action in the national interest.

Then with all/almost all of the cabinet on side, the real push from govt begins, choregraphed with the EU. It will be powerful, and much of it aimed at the long-suffering/bored/reasonable public.

I think Labour will be hard pressed to argue in that scenario that voting the deal down is in the national interest and not narrow party interest - particularly when May is seen to be calling the bluff of the ultras.

I could be wrong. But it's going to be great to watch the next couple of weeks. If Mrs May fails, she will go down as a failure regardless of the merits. If the pulls this off, she will (quite rightly) be seen in a much more positive light and receive credit for bridging the seemingly impossible in the face on unceasing unpleasantness.

This line of "they hadn't read the deal yet" isn't going to hold any water unless there's something in there which significantly contradicts what we expect/what the no voters are complaining about

Big_G_NorthWales

MarqueeMark said:

williamglenn said:

David_Evershed said:

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

I don't think such a contest is possible. If May is deposed, she can't be a candidate.

Can May call a back me or sack me contest, as Major did? Unsure of the rules on that.....

I am sure she can but I do not see the need. If there is a vnoc I fully expect TM to win and then be in office for the next year

notme

Stereotomy said:

There's at least one glimmer of hope today: maybe Grayling will resign!

To mash up a great Reagan quote “if you are Grayling you are failing”.

stjohn

Alanbrooke said:

MarqueeMark said:

JosiasJessop said:

One thing is sadly clear: even if this deal does get agreed in cabinet, and through parliament, the snot-nosed, bigoted, pseudo-nationalistic Brexiteers won't be satisfied and will screech and scream like the petulant children they are.

Just as they have for the last three decades. Their sickness will infect British politics even with this deal.

God help us.

Whilst the Europhiles will still push their line that Brussels Knows Best.

The failure of May's Deal will be that it did not put the matter to rest.

personally I cant see how the matter can be put to rest at one go

Brexit is a process not an event

Once the froth has died down and the main actors have retired we will drift away should we wish to. Likewise if the deal is too onesided it cannot rest and there will come a time when the EU has different priorities or needs UK support when a quid pro quo will change it.

Nothing in human affairs is permanent bar death and taxes

And you can't always rely on taxis.

bigjohnowls

Big_G_NorthWales said:

MarqueeMark said:

williamglenn said:

David_Evershed said:

If Cabinet members don't resign they won't be able to stand in the forthcoming Conservative leadership election, which might leave a staight fight between May and Boris with the Conservative members left with the choice.

I don't think such a contest is possible. If May is deposed, she can't be a candidate.

Can May call a back me or sack me contest, as Major did? Unsure of the rules on that.....

I am sure she can but I do not see the need. If there is a vnoc I fully expect TM to win and then be in office for the next year

In office but not in power!

JosiasJessop

MarqueeMark said:

JosiasJessop said:

One thing is sadly clear: even if this deal does get agreed in cabinet, and through parliament, the snot-nosed, bigoted, pseudo-nationalistic Brexiteers won't be satisfied and will screech and scream like the petulant children they are.

Just as they have for the last three decades. Their sickness will infect British politics even with this deal.

God help us.

Whilst the Europhiles will still push their line that Brussels Knows Best.

The failure of May's Deal will be that it did not put the matter to rest.

Given the chaos we're seeing, Brussels may not know best, but it could easily be argued they know better than the current shower we have on all sides.

And how can it be put to rest when you have the likes of JRM harking back to some glory days that never happened, and the likes of Boris incompetently coveting the top job?

There's no deal that will not lead to problems; including no deal. It's time for everyone to compromise and stop being Neanderthal fuckwits.

TheWhiteRabbit

Francios leaning on the Cabinet. Is he not confident this will be voted down in the Commons?

notme

MarqueeMark said:

notme said:

RobinWiggs said:

I think the govt comms strategy on this is canny.

Let the ultras on both sides and the mediaevalists of the DUP vent their spleen in the first cycle - with only the occasional moderate voice like Hague to ensure the initial narrative doesn't kill off the deal before it breathes life (the ultras key objective atm).

This allows the 2/3rd of parliament and the country that is reasonably sane to see exactly who they would be trooping through the lobbies with if they oppose this deal (as if they didn't already know what nutters Soubry and Moggy are).

It leaves the Moggites with little new to say in the next news cycle... they opposed it before they even saw the detail. Hardly considered action in the national interest.

Then with all/almost all of the cabinet on side, the real push from govt begins, choregraphed with the EU. It will be powerful, and much of it aimed at the long-suffering/bored/reasonable public.

I think Labour will be hard pressed to argue in that scenario that voting the deal down is in the national interest and not narrow party interest - particularly when May is seen to be calling the bluff of the ultras.

I could be wrong. But it's going to be great to watch the next couple of weeks. If Mrs May fails, she will go down as a failure regardless of the merits. If the pulls this off, she will (quite rightly) be seen in a much more positive light and receive credit for bridging the seemingly impossible in the face on unceasing unpleasantness.

Yes we do keep forgetting that it isn’t the ultra leavers or remainers that compose of the mildly disinterested British population. She’s playing the line of leaving the EU and trying to do it with as little disruption as possible. She’ll get away with it and come out stronger as long as we are no longer pumping in net £9 billion a year.

Except one of the little details yet to emerge is how much more, for how much longer.....

I’m always sanguine about such things as long as the date exists and will happen unless something else is done to stop it. You put it in the system and it happens. Like those queue tickets you used to get at the deli counter. Ticket number 38. It will eventually call, and while you are waiting you can just do other things.

bigjohnowls

Stereotomy said:

RobinWiggs said:

I think the govt comms strategy on this is canny.

Let the ultras on both sides and the mediaevalists of the DUP vent their spleen in the first cycle - with only the occasional moderate voice like Hague to ensure the initial narrative doesn't kill off the deal before it breathes life (the ultras key objective atm).

This allows the 2/3rd of parliament and the country that is reasonably sane to see exactly who they would be trooping through the lobbies with if they oppose this deal (as if they didn't already know what nutters Soubry and Moggy are).

It leaves the Moggites with little new to say in the next news cycle... they opposed it before they even saw the detail. Hardly considered action in the national interest.

Then with all/almost all of the cabinet on side, the real push from govt begins, choregraphed with the EU. It will be powerful, and much of it aimed at the long-suffering/bored/reasonable public.

I think Labour will be hard pressed to argue in that scenario that voting the deal down is in the national interest and not narrow party interest - particularly when May is seen to be calling the bluff of the ultras.

I could be wrong. But it's going to be great to watch the next couple of weeks. If Mrs May fails, she will go down as a failure regardless of the merits. If the pulls this off, she will (quite rightly) be seen in a much more positive light and receive credit for bridging the seemingly impossible in the face on unceasing unpleasantness.

This line of "they hadn't read the deal yet" isn't going to hold any water unless there's something in there which significantly contradicts what we expect/what the no voters are complaining about

Plus some of the ERG can't read

Pulpstar

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Francios leaning on the Cabinet. Is he not confident this will be voted down in the Commons?

Who is Francios ?

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/alstewitn/status/1062651020579344385

Gallowgate

ERG may as well be a separate party at this point.

MarqueeMark

So - how many Cabinet resignations by midnight?

RochdalePioneers

Pulpstar said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Francios leaning on the Cabinet. Is he not confident this will be voted down in the Commons?

Who is Francios ?

Urquart?

Big_G_NorthWales

Pulpstar said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Francios leaning on the Cabinet. Is he not confident this will be voted down in the Commons?

Who is Francios ?

An ERG member

JosiasJessop

Gallowgate said:

ERG may as well be a separate party at this point.

They had one. UKIP.

They should just p*ss off to UKIP to swim with their fellow pond scum.