I don't think it's especially nonsense. Rather less than May's so called deal, in fact
TM has a deal agreed by the EU 27
Labour are talking nonsense
May has.a deal which essentially implements the EU's original withdrawal requirements against a temporary extension of the status quo and a commitment to negotiate further. It absolutely isn't an end state agreement, although May dishonestly pretends it is.
For me (I think!); I first voted in 1992): Conservative Labour Lib Dem Green Independent
Sometimes at the same visit to the polling station (e.g. locals, GE).
Basically, most parties available in my part of England aside from UKIP. And I am so glad I never soiled myself by associating myself via a vote with that party.
First voted in the mid-nineties
Have voted for:
Conservative UKIP Referendum Party Lib Dem SNP Green Nine Percent Growth Party Scottish Libertarian Party Independent
Would probably spoil my ballot if there were a general election before 29 March. Never done that before.
Wow, quite the list. I feel very dull only having voted LD, Independent and Conservative since 2005.
Wait, 'Nine Percent Growth Party'?
My first election was 1987. I missed the 83 election by 1 month.
I voted
Conservative (Thatcher) Conservative (Major) Referendum Party Conservative (A local vote for Pat Mercer) UKIP UKIP UKIP Spoilt Paper ( I refused to vote for May or UKIP and there was no one else worth supporting)
So you voted for the Maastricht treaty.
Yep. I was young and stupid. We all do idiotic things that we come to regret as we get older and wiser. I learnt my lesson quickly enough though. Hence the Referendum Party in 97.
I don't think it's especially nonsense. Rather less than May's so called deal, in fact
TM has a deal agreed by the EU 27
Labour are talking nonsense
But not agreed by her party, Parliament or the people of the UK. Which is a slight problem.
Because Remainers are voting it down because they can not tolerate any Brexit and are willing to plunge the UK into a crash rather than respect the democratic vote.
As you well know they are not the only ones voting it down.
They are the vast majority. Pointing to a small minority of anti-deal MPs for its failure is pure sophistry. By far the dominant reason for this deal being blocked by parliament is Remain MPs. The majority of them that are doing so by citing six impossible tests that any Brexit deal would fail.
They are deliberately trying to overrule the people in a dirty tricks way, and the media is covering for them. There has been active collaboration between Labour, Barnier and major media outlets to keep us in the EU and keep mass immigration going.
My personal experience of ministers and shadow ministers is fairly limited, but of those, Barry Gardiner (who I dealt with when he was at DEFRA) is the least impressive by several leagues. The “couldn’t tie his own shoelaces” barb being bandied around here earlier... I’m not even convinced he could fasten his own velcro straps.
The ERG are basically nuts, but at least they are proposing things that are deliverable if unpalatable. Corbyn and co. are pretty much just making shit up at this point, it would be quite nice to here some official EU position on what Labour are saying.
That might give Starmer's game away - which is to justify voting against any deal that is proposed on the basis Labour can deliver the world, then 'reluctantly' back Remain in a referendum as they never got the chance to deliver this amazing proposal. Since we are assured the EU do want us to remain despite the problems (because we are a net contributor), even if they were inclined to comment on opposition proposals directly it might not be in their interests to do so.
Labour's insistence on renegotiating the deal is a major, major strategic mistake on their part.
Not at all - it demonstrates their sincerity to deliver Brexit, and when they do not get a chance to deliver proper Brexit, it justifies why they then switch to a referendum, in which they back remain (officially or otherwise). They weren't against brexit, just this brexit, and look at how many Tories agree it was a terrible Brexit.
Certainly the trashing the ERG gave both May and the deal when it came out played straight into the opposition's hands. They always want the two birds in the bush.
For me (I think!); I first voted in 1992): Conservative Labour Lib Dem Green Independent
Sometimes at the same visit to the polling station (e.g. locals, GE).
Basically, most parties available in my part of England aside from UKIP. And I am so glad I never soiled myself by associating myself via a vote with that party.
First voted in the mid-nineties
Have voted for:
Conservative UKIP Referendum Party Lib Dem SNP Green Nine Percent Growth Party Scottish Libertarian Party Independent
Would probably spoil my ballot if there were a general election before 29 March. Never done that before.
Wow, quite the list. I feel very dull only having voted LD, Independent and Conservative since 2005.
Wait, 'Nine Percent Growth Party'?
My first election was 1987. I missed the 83 election by 1 month.
I voted
Conservative (Thatcher) Conservative (Major) Referendum Party Conservative (A local vote for Pat Mercer) UKIP UKIP UKIP Spoilt Paper ( I refused to vote for May or UKIP and there was no one else worth supporting)
So you voted for the Maastricht treaty.
Yep. I was young and stupid. We all do idiotic things that we come to regret as we get older and wiser. I learnt my lesson quickly enough though. Hence the Referendum Party in 97.
I am not sure that is the voting profile of someone becoming more sensible with age!
In my experience Tory negativity about Labour is at least as strong. For whatever reason this doesn't drive them to vote tactically in such large numbers (although obviously it does happen, in seats like Clegg's for example.
Though I find that locally, Labour dislike the Tories, the Tories dislike Labour, but they both really hate the Lib Dems.
The Labour councillor for one stop down the train line, a self-described "centrist", is politically not that far from the Lib Dem councillor for where I live... but mein gott, the vitriol she pours on the Lib Dems on Twitter is a sight to behold. And the Tories are similar.
Which is all a bit bloody self-defeating given that the county is a hung council and one of them will, conceivably, need Lib Dem support to govern before too long, but there you go.
Of course their activists hate the Lib Dems. Their objective, whether Labour or Con, is to polarise politics into just two blocks, so that the electorate is forced to choose between bad and even worse. That way they have a chance, sooner or later, at grabbing hold of uncontrolled power for themselves.
This is what happened at the 2017 election. Many people voted against the prospect of a Tory dictatorship, and others against a Socialist dictatorship. We ended up with the former, and it is taking the country along the road to total ruination.
I don't think it's especially nonsense. Rather less than May's so called deal, in fact
Outside the EU, in the customs union with "say" in trade deals ?
Lol.
Indeed. But don't expect that with "May's deal" either. At least Labour are discussing a viable end state. May's deal is just cake.
It's not a viable end state. Full single market access with immigration controls? Outside the EU but with meaningful input on trade deals? It is pixie dust and unicorns.
But the Remain media covers for them, because it has long given up any sense of being about journalistic integrity or impartiality.
My point is that in the pantheon of pixie dust, this proposal has smaller quantities of it than hard leavers, Theresa May or second referendumers.
The UK won't have a huge input into trade deals under any probable Brexit scenario simply because the EU is big, we're next to it and we're plugged in. I think it's the least of the Vassal State concerns because it's something you would want to do as a consortium Being left out is a bigger problem.
I wouldn't say this snippet makes any huge claim for immigration control. If you are that way inclined, surely you would object it doesn't offer more?
In my experience Tory negativity about Labour is at least as strong. For whatever reason this doesn't drive them to vote tactically in such large numbers (although obviously it does happen, in seats like Clegg's for example.
Though I find that locally, Labour dislike the Tories, the Tories dislike Labour, but they both really hate the Lib Dems.
The Labour councillor for one stop down the train line, a self-described "centrist", is politically not that far from the Lib Dem councillor for where I live... but mein gott, the vitriol she pours on the Lib Dems on Twitter is a sight to behold. And the Tories are similar.
Which is all a bit bloody self-defeating given that the county is a hung council and one of them will, conceivably, need Lib Dem support to govern before too long, but there you go.
Of course their activists hate the Lib Dems. Their objective, whether Labour or Con, is to polarise politics into just two blocks, so that the electorate is forced to choose between bad and even worse. That way they have a chance, sooner or later, at grabbing hold of uncontrolled power for themselves.
I don't think it's especially nonsense. Rather less than May's so called deal, in fact
Outside the EU, in the customs union with "say" in trade deals ?
Lol.
Indeed. But don't expect that with "May's deal" either. At least Labour are discussing a viable end state. May's deal is just cake.
It's not a viable end state. Full single market access with immigration controls? Outside the EU but with meaningful input on trade deals? It is pixie dust and unicorns.
But the Remain media covers for them, because it has long given up any sense of being about journalistic integrity or impartiality.
Remain media 😂😂😂
Does this 'Remain Media' include the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph, Sun, Star ect?!
Does this include the Today programme that seems to have David Davis on on a daily basis?!
"of course, we never expected them to fall for this cheap trick. We just felt that by insulting their intelligence one last time, we'd make them feel bad for not supporting us"
For me (I think!); I first voted in 1992): Conservative Labour Lib Dem Green Independent
Sometimes at the same visit to the polling station (e.g. locals, GE).
Basically, most parties available in my part of England aside from UKIP. And I am so glad I never soiled myself by associating myself via a vote with that party.
First voted in the mid-nineties
Have voted for:
Conservative UKIP Referendum Party Lib Dem SNP Green Nine Percent Growth Party Scottish Libertarian Party Independent
Would probably spoil my ballot if there were a general election before 29 March. Never done that before.
Wow, quite the list. I feel very dull only having voted LD, Independent and Conservative since 2005.
Wait, 'Nine Percent Growth Party'?
My first election was 1987. I missed the 83 election by 1 month.
I voted
Conservative (Thatcher) Conservative (Major) Referendum Party Conservative (A local vote for Pat Mercer) UKIP UKIP UKIP Spoilt Paper ( I refused to vote for May or UKIP and there was no one else worth supporting)
So you voted for the Maastricht treaty.
Yep. I was young and stupid. We all do idiotic things that we come to regret as we get older and wiser. I learnt my lesson quickly enough though. Hence the Referendum Party in 97.
I am not sure that is the voting profile of someone becoming more sensible with age!
It is the voting profile of a realist who has seen more of the world (both good and bad) than most people in this country.
For me (I think!); I first voted in 1992): Conservative Labour Lib Dem Green Independent
Sometimes at the same visit to the polling station (e.g. locals, GE).
Basically, most parties available in my part of England aside from UKIP. And I am so glad I never soiled myself by associating myself via a vote with that party.
First voted in the mid-nineties
Have voted for:
Conservative UKIP Referendum Party Lib Dem SNP Green Nine Percent Growth Party Scottish Libertarian Party Independent
Would probably spoil my ballot if there were a general election before 29 March. Never done that before.
Wow, quite the list. I feel very dull only having voted LD, Independent and Conservative since 2005.
Wait, 'Nine Percent Growth Party'?
My first election was 1987. I missed the 83 election by 1 month.
I voted
Conservative (Thatcher) Conservative (Major) Referendum Party Conservative (A local vote for Pat Mercer) UKIP UKIP UKIP Spoilt Paper ( I refused to vote for May or UKIP and there was no one else worth supporting)
Lord Buckethead was the most robust all rounder in 2017.
Comments
They are deliberately trying to overrule the people in a dirty tricks way, and the media is covering for them. There has been active collaboration between Labour, Barnier and major media outlets to keep us in the EU and keep mass immigration going.
This is what happened at the 2017 election. Many people voted against the prospect of a Tory dictatorship, and others against a Socialist dictatorship. We ended up with the former, and it is taking the country along the road to total ruination.
"Elysee fears ‘putschists’, coup attempt during Yellow Vests protests this weekend – media"
https://www.rt.com/news/445750-france-coup-attempt-protests/
The UK won't have a huge input into trade deals under any probable Brexit scenario simply because the EU is big, we're next to it and we're plugged in. I think it's the least of the Vassal State concerns because it's something you would want to do as a consortium Being left out is a bigger problem.
I wouldn't say this snippet makes any huge claim for immigration control. If you are that way inclined, surely you would object it doesn't offer more?
https://twitter.com/DUPleader/status/1070796443655565312
Does this 'Remain Media' include the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph, Sun, Star ect?!
Does this include the Today programme that seems to have David Davis on on a daily basis?!
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1070604859257307137
"of course, we never expected them to fall for this cheap trick. We just felt that by insulting their intelligence one last time, we'd make them feel bad for not supporting us"
I didn't vote in 1997, because I was in Berlin. I didn't vote in 2001, because I was in the US.
The first election I ever voted in was - I think - the London Mayoral election of 2000.
RIP