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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » More Democrats put their hats into the ring in the fight for t

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited January 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » More Democrats put their hats into the ring in the fight for the nomination to take on Trump

While all in the UK have been focused on Brexit and it’s aftermath things are starting to hot up in the race to be elected president of the United States in November 2020. This will be the 5th White House campaign that will be covered by Politicalbetting since the site’s foundation in 2004.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    Biden and Sanders have the best name recognition which is helping them in the early polls though I’m not convinced by either. Age is a factor.

    What does your age have to do with it, Mike ?
    :smile:
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    OGH said:


    I’ve got longshot bets on all apart from Booker, Biden and Sanders.

    Sly, you never told us you were on KLOBUCHAR
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    One of my larger positions, for now, is a lay of Trump for the Republican nomination.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    edited January 2019
    Tulsi Gabbard is an obvious lay.

    Long odds, and the nomination is a long time away, but ought to be able to close out the bet for a decent profit long before then.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378

    OGH said:


    I’ve got longshot bets on all apart from Booker, Biden and Sanders.

    Sly, you never told us you were on KLOBUCHAR
    So long as it doesn’t interact with any of the other meds...

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Nigelb said:

    One of my larger positions, for now, is a lay of Trump for the Republican nomination.

    I think that's one of the worst bets around and am on the other side at 1.68
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Scott_P said:
    If I lived in Uxbridge, I'd be tempted, for the only time in my life, to vote Labour.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    edited January 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of my larger positions, for now, is a lay of Trump for the Republican nomination.

    I think that's one of the worst bets around and am on the other side at 1.68
    I think at around 1.50 it is a great trading bet.
    But I can see how that might be a minority opinion.

    FWIW, I posted this on the last thread, and it bears re-posting:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/17/giuliani-mueller-collusion-investigation-1110671

  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    OGH said:


    I’ve got longshot bets on all apart from Booker, Biden and Sanders.

    Sly, you never told us you were on KLOBUCHAR
    I can't see that name without going all Sinead O'Connor. "But I do know... KLOBUCHAR"

    Meanwhile in Boris news:

    https://twitter.com/alexpartridge87/status/1086224580673454080
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    Beto pitching hard for the long-form written-word road movie vote

    https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1086175661616558081
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    edited January 2019

    UK, please stay with us.

    'Brexit: High-profile Germans plead with UK to stay in EU'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009

    Shame Bowie, as an honorary Berliner, isn't around to sign the letter.

    Nice sentiment but they'd just bitch and moan at us for bitching and moaning all the time if we stayed so its a bit misplaced. They don't want us to stay, they want an idealised version of the UK to stay. They'd regret it the first time we caused a fuss.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    kle4 said:

    UK, please stay with us.

    'Brexit: High-profile Germans plead with UK to stay in EU'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009

    Shame Bowie, as an honorary Berliner, isn't around to sign the letter.

    Nice sentiment but they'd just bitch and moan at us for bitching and moaning all the time if we stayed so its a bit misplaced. They don't want us to stay, they want an idealised version of the UK to stay. They'd regret it the first time we caused a fuss.

    To be fair, I can understand why leavers might not take people at their word....

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jan/18/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-merkels-probable-successor-and-other-leading-germans-urge-uk-to-change-its-mind-and-stay-politics-live
    Johnson says he did not make any remarks about Turkey during the EU referendum campaign....
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,157
    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    If I lived in Uxbridge, I'd be tempted, for the only time in my life, to vote Labour.
    There are still people in the Tory party that are in awe of this clown though. Proof positive that you can fool some of the people all of the time
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,157
    kle4 said:

    UK, please stay with us.

    'Brexit: High-profile Germans plead with UK to stay in EU'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009

    Shame Bowie, as an honorary Berliner, isn't around to sign the letter.

    Nice sentiment but they'd just bitch and moan at us for bitching and moaning all the time if we stayed so its a bit misplaced. They don't want us to stay, they want an idealised version of the UK to stay. They'd regret it the first time we caused a fuss.

    There is an argument for saying that you need a bit of grit in the oyster to make a better pearl. Maybe that's Britain's role in the EU - the grit in the oyster.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    Exciting race, and for a massive prize, because surely to goodness it means the White House if the Reps stick with the Donald.

    On which subject, a nice article today on BBC by Nick Bryant, observing that Trump manages to combine the very worst characteristic of each president going back decades.

    JFK's poor attention span, LBJ's bullying, Nixon's paranoia, Carter's naivety, Reagan's shallowness, Clinton's mendacity, Bush's incompetence.

    The Orange One has it all, but unfortunately with none of the various positive qualities that evened up the score somewhat with the others.

    Quite a remarkable individual really. Truly a one off.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    UK, please stay with us.

    'Brexit: High-profile Germans plead with UK to stay in EU'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009

    Shame Bowie, as an honorary Berliner, isn't around to sign the letter.

    Nice sentiment but they'd just bitch and moan at us for bitching and moaning all the time if we stayed so its a bit misplaced. They don't want us to stay, they want an idealised version of the UK to stay. They'd regret it the first time we caused a fuss.

    To be fair, I can understand why leavers might not take people at their word....

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jan/18/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-merkels-probable-successor-and-other-leading-germans-urge-uk-to-change-its-mind-and-stay-politics-live
    Johnson says he did not make any remarks about Turkey during the EU referendum campaign....
    My suggestion.

    We extend Article 50 until Turkey joins the EU.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Boris is now irrelevant.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    I more I see of Boris, the more I like dogs....
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    UK, please stay with us.

    'Brexit: High-profile Germans plead with UK to stay in EU'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009

    Shame Bowie, as an honorary Berliner, isn't around to sign the letter.

    Nice sentiment but they'd just bitch and moan at us for bitching and moaning all the time if we stayed so its a bit misplaced. They don't want us to stay, they want an idealised version of the UK to stay. They'd regret it the first time we caused a fuss.

    There is an argument for saying that you need a bit of grit in the oyster to make a better pearl. Maybe that's Britain's role in the EU - the grit in the oyster.
    A very good metaphor. The grit in the pearl produced the Single Market, Enlargement, and privatisation. It was mainly put there by someone who was fond of pearls and her name was Margaret Thatcher. All that thrown away by fools that claim to be her disciples, but don't have the political credentials or brains to kiss her court shoes.
  • Options
    On topic Bernie is a lay because of stuff like this.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-discrimination-sexism.html

    Biden also has issues on this front.

    The Dems will want to keep the moral high ground on the pussy grabber front.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited January 2019
    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.
  • Options
    TGOHF said:

    Boris is now irrelevant.

    I do hope so
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903

    On topic Bernie is a lay because of stuff like this.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-discrimination-sexism.html

    Biden also has issues on this front.

    The Dems will want to keep the moral high ground on the pussy grabber front.

    I laid Warren off to previous stake at the precise point she announced she was running.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    kinabalu said:

    Exciting race, and for a massive prize, because surely to goodness it means the White House if the Reps stick with the Donald.

    On which subject, a nice article today on BBC by Nick Bryant, observing that Trump manages to combine the very worst characteristic of each president going back decades.

    JFK's poor attention span, LBJ's bullying, Nixon's paranoia, Carter's naivety, Reagan's shallowness, Clinton's mendacity, Bush's incompetence.

    The Orange One has it all, but unfortunately with none of the various positive qualities that evened up the score somewhat with the others.

    Quite a remarkable individual really. Truly a one off.

    I do wonder if some Americans voted for him out of a sense of morbid fascination - "How bad COULD he be?"
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
  • Options
    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?
  • Options

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
    I saw John Major give a speech several years ago. He was surprisingly outstanding
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
    I saw John Major give a speech several years ago. He was surprisingly outstanding
    I saw Theresa May give a speech in 2003. It wasn't outstanding.
  • Options
    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    why do I want "insights" is a full half of them are crap? how do I act on that information?
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141

    On topic Bernie is a lay because of stuff like this.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-discrimination-sexism.html

    Biden also has issues on this front.

    The Dems will want to keep the moral high ground on the pussy grabber front.

    Then Sherrod Brown has domestic violence allegations (in a previous court filling from an ex-wife, although apparently they're now on good terms), which is even worse, since unlike sexual harassment I don't think there's anything similar around Trump.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Difficult to get the EU to accept something new to solve a problem they don't want to have.

  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
    I saw John Major give a speech several years ago. He was surprisingly outstanding
    I saw Theresa May give a speech in 2003. It wasn't outstanding.
    Unsurprisingly !
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Varadkar crashed that work once. His incentive to work on it again?
  • Options
    TGOHF said:

    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Difficult to get the EU to accept something new to solve a problem they don't want to have.

    I don't see what the problem would be. We would avoid the problematic backstop and skip straight to the part everyone accepts, which is what happens after the technical solution to the NI border is found.
  • Options

    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Varadkar crashed that work once. His incentive to work on it again?
    He doesn't want a hard border and wants to win the next election?
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Parliament could not bind itself in that way, any act can simply be repealed by a future Parliament.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    Paul Masterton's speech in the Meaningful Vote debate is worth a look. He sets out his position with clarity and explains why if it was voted down he would be looking again at his position:

    https://www.paulmasterton.org.uk/news/brexit-update

    He gets going properly about 3 minutes in.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
    I saw John Major give a speech several years ago. He was surprisingly outstanding
    I saw Theresa May give a speech in 2003. It wasn't outstanding.
    Unsurprisingly !
    I'll tell you who I did think was outstanding that day - David Miliband. It was November, 2003 at the height of the Iraq War controversy. Miliband gave a speech on why it was right that tuition fees were being trebled. Given this was at a sixth formers conference, this didn't go down well. He got a lot of grief from the kids, but not one of them asked about Iraq. Brilliant.

    On the train home I said to my classmates and teacher that I thought we'd seen the next PM (they thought I was mad). I was too young to bet, but I was gutted when he didn't go for it in 2007. As it was, we'd seen the next but two PM.
  • Options
    notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    UK, please stay with us.

    'Brexit: High-profile Germans plead with UK to stay in EU'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009

    Shame Bowie, as an honorary Berliner, isn't around to sign the letter.

    Nice sentiment but they'd just bitch and moan at us for bitching and moaning all the time if we stayed so its a bit misplaced. They don't want us to stay, they want an idealised version of the UK to stay. They'd regret it the first time we caused a fuss.

    There is an argument for saying that you need a bit of grit in the oyster to make a better pearl. Maybe that's Britain's role in the EU - the grit in the oyster.
    A very good metaphor. The grit in the pearl produced the Single Market, Enlargement, and privatisation. It was mainly put there by someone who was fond of pearls and her name was Margaret Thatcher. All that thrown away by fools that claim to be her disciples, but don't have the political credentials or brains to kiss her court shoes.
    Yes, yes and yes again.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    autonomy said:

    TGOHF said:

    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Difficult to get the EU to accept something new to solve a problem they don't want to have.

    I don't see what the problem would be. We would avoid the problematic backstop and skip straight to the part everyone accepts, which is what happens after the technical solution to the NI border is found.
    The Irish will be a lot keener on whizzo British technology when Berlin demands they fork out for a hard border. Suspect they will suddenly be very keen on pushing it through then.

  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    why do I want "insights" is a full half of them are crap? how do I act on that information?
    Like any other intelligence, you have to apply your own filters.

    Behind the scenes insights are far more likely to be of use/truth than PR lines spun out by the PM or Loto, which are a combination of lies, platitudes and self-serving positioning.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
    I saw John Major give a speech several years ago. He was surprisingly outstanding
    I saw Theresa May give a speech in 2003. It wasn't outstanding.
    Unsurprisingly !
    Dog bites man!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    autonomy said:

    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Varadkar crashed that work once. His incentive to work on it again?
    He doesn't want a hard border and wants to win the next election?
    We'd likely have that by now - if he hadn't buggered up the work that was being done on finding that technical solution. Of course, we don't know if he did it on his own intitiative, or was instructed to do so by Brussels.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129

    I do wonder if some Americans voted for him out of a sense of morbid fascination - "How bad COULD he be?"

    You know what, I would like to think so. Still reprehensible, of course, but not quite such a basket of deplorable as actually liking him.

    Still, don't mind me, I've got full blown TDS. It's making me a bit crazy and hard to be around.
  • Options

    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Parliament could not bind itself in that way, any act can simply be repealed by a future Parliament.
    So the government can bind future governments by signing international treaties, but not otherwise?

    If we could find a way to oblige future governments (beyond the moral obligation to the referendum results which many MPs seem to ignore), we can avoid the legally binding backstop with the EU.

    We basically switch the bind from being with the EU, to being with the British people, which is much more acceptable if a way can be found for it to work.
  • Options
    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161
    Excellent header. So good to have something other than the bloody B word.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161
    What of Julian Castro?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, I expect there will be others musing on their chances yet. I'm laying rather than backing for now.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    4) as an MP introduce the amendment David Green published earlier today...

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1086180708069064704

    because (and I say this on all projects I work on as they are always either Pilots, Proof of Concepts or Experiments)

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1086236745639886850
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
    I saw John Major give a speech several years ago. He was surprisingly outstanding
    I saw Theresa May give a speech in 2003. It wasn't outstanding.
    Unsurprisingly !
    I'll tell you who I did think was outstanding that day - David Miliband. It was November, 2003 at the height of the Iraq War controversy. Miliband gave a speech on why it was right that tuition fees were being trebled. Given this was at a sixth formers conference, this didn't go down well. He got a lot of grief from the kids, but not one of them asked about Iraq. Brilliant.

    On the train home I said to my classmates and teacher that I thought we'd seen the next PM (they thought I was mad). I was too young to bet, but I was gutted when he didn't go for it in 2007. As it was, we'd seen the next but two PM.
    Next but two?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    kinabalu said:

    I do wonder if some Americans voted for him out of a sense of morbid fascination - "How bad COULD he be?"

    You know what, I would like to think so. Still reprehensible, of course, but not quite such a basket of deplorable as actually liking him.

    Still, don't mind me, I've got full blown TDS. It's making me a bit crazy and hard to be around.
    Politics as freak-show.

    Pay a shilling - and watch the inmates of Bedlam for a laugh....
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    True enough.

    Are there any politicians around who can do that? Struggling to think of any. Certainly on the front benches.

    Possibly the last speech I was genuinely impressed by was Hilary Benn's during the IS debate. Tom Watson was pretty good the other day.

    But making an argument in a speech to an audience, making them think......well, I'll leave it there for others to respond. I'm off out to prepare a pitch. Wish me luck.
    William Hague?
    I saw John Major give a speech several years ago. He was surprisingly outstanding
    I saw Theresa May give a speech in 2003. It wasn't outstanding.
    Unsurprisingly !
    I'll tell you who I did think was outstanding that day - David Miliband. It was November, 2003 at the height of the Iraq War controversy. Miliband gave a speech on why it was right that tuition fees were being trebled. Given this was at a sixth formers conference, this didn't go down well. He got a lot of grief from the kids, but not one of them asked about Iraq. Brilliant.

    On the train home I said to my classmates and teacher that I thought we'd seen the next PM (they thought I was mad). I was too young to bet, but I was gutted when he didn't go for it in 2007. As it was, we'd seen the next but two PM.
    Next but two?
    May - after Brown and Cameron.
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    Completely O/T: This is an excellent 'long read' article on euthanasia in the Netherlands. Balanced and very thought-provoking:

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/18/death-on-demand-has-euthanasia-gone-too-far-netherlands-assisted-dying
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    It doesn't honour the Referendum though. With all that entails.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    If you're one of the almost 500 MPs who voted through Art 50 and are against a "No deal" Brexit then I think you are duty obliged to vote for May's deal.
    Sure you can campaign to rejoin, but your action 2 years ago has consequences now.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    It doesn't honour the Referendum though. With all that entails.
    Sure, I'm not arguing that she should or shouldn't do that (in that comment, anyway). My point is that she *could* do it, so arguments that she can't take No Deal off the table (as opposed to "could, but doesn't want to") are wrong.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Also off topic, and also a long read, a long twitter thread that will turn the most ardent of free marketeers into raging Communists:

    https://twitter.com/praddenkeefe/status/1085959572886560768
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    autonomy said:

    Regarding Brexit, could this work?

    May's deal said we would enter a legally binding backstop with the EU until a technical solution to the NI border was found.

    Why not suspend Article 50, and make a legally binding agreement with the British people that we will leave the EU when a technical solution to the NI border is found?

    Practicalities aside, I like that very much.

    With hindsight a viable tech solution to the border ought to have been a pre-condition of the EU referendum, since the absence of one makes a meaningful exit impossible.

    Another left field idea I like is a NI only vote on a Yes/No to "Do you mind being aligned more closely to the EU than the rest of the UK is?"

    A clear No to that would cut the legs off the DUP.
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    FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    If you're one of the almost 500 MPs who voted through Art 50 and are against a "No deal" Brexit then I think you are duty obliged to vote for May's deal.
    Sure you can campaign to rejoin, but your action 2 years ago has consequences now.

    I have some sympathy with this point. I don't agree they're duty obliged to vote for May's deal, but you're absolutely correct that their actions have caused No Deal to be a real possibility.

    Most of all Theresa May, she is derelict in her duties as PM to have such a bad outcome (she admits as much herself) to be such a distinct possibility in just 2 months' time (and will so little preparation).
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    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    When peston was at the bbc he did just the same as Laura k. He was the conduit for the treasury, then there was a change of government and his direct contact went out the window along with the accuracy of most of his reports.
  • Options

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    My response to MM applies here too.
  • Options

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    My response to MM applies here too.
    Yes I do understand your response. She has fought for Brexit, has a deal that is reasonable, and then to change to stoping brexit is just unimaginable and would be her last act in the party
  • Options
    Fenman said:
    How much money are you placing on your "steak"? :lol:
  • Options
    [swaggering] I've been a vegetarian since 1991, man! :)
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    Because otherwise she has a long and rosy future?
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    When peston was at the bbc he did just the same as Laura k. He was the conduit for the treasury, then there was a change of government and his direct contact went out the window along with the accuracy of most of his reports.
    Rubbish. He got one of the best biz scoops of modern times with his Northern Rock story.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Fenman said:
    Half a rasher an hour? Easy.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Also off topic, and also a long read, a long twitter thread that will turn the most ardent of free marketeers into raging Communists:

    twitter.com/praddenkeefe/status/1085959572886560768


    Can you imagine what it would be like if they, rather than Trump, where in the Whitehouse?
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    That bird has flown!
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    Absolutely spot on.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    My response to MM applies here too.
    Yes I do understand your response. She has fought for Brexit, has a deal that is reasonable, and then to change to stoping brexit is just unimaginable and would be her last act in the party
    It doesn't necessarily stop Brexit. If her deal (or some other deal) was eventually acceptible to parliament, then we could invoke A50 again and immediately sign the deal (assuming the EU didn't play silly buggers). And changing the default to revoking could even help get some of her party's rebels on-side if she put the deal to a vote again before March 29th.

    Sure, she wouldn't be too popular with the party after that, but that's where the famed Theresa May Sense Of Duty comes in, right?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2019
    It could be that a surprisingly high percentage of people support either Remain or No Deal as the only desirable options, ie. that we should either stay in exactly as we are now, or if we are going to leave it should be a clean break from the EU. It would be interesting to see the polling on this, if it exists.
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    eek said:

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    4) as an MP introduce the amendment David Green published earlier today...

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1086180708069064704

    because (and I say this on all projects I work on as they are always either Pilots, Proof of Concepts or Experiments)

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1086236745639886850
    That is just an argument to revoke Article 50. It means that the EU would just sit back and wait for revocation.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    AndyJS said:

    It could be that a surprisingly high percentage of people support either Remain or No Deal as the only desirable options, ie. that we should either stay in exactly as we are now, or if we are going to leave it should be a clean break from the EU. It would be interesting to see the polling on this, if it exists.

    The break under No Deal would be anything but clean!
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    Because otherwise she has a long and rosy future?
    Not quite the same.

    She has a rocky road in front but she is not going to betray all she has worked for on brexit
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    eek said:

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    4) as an MP introduce the amendment David Green published earlier today...

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1086180708069064704

    because (and I say this on all projects I work on as they are always either Pilots, Proof of Concepts or Experiments)

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1086236745639886850
    That is just an argument to revoke Article 50. It means that the EU would just sit back and wait for revocation.
    The EU has nothing to do but sit back and wait anyway. The decision making is all with parliament right now.
  • Options
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    When peston was at the bbc he did just the same as Laura k. He was the conduit for the treasury, then there was a change of government and his direct contact went out the window along with the accuracy of most of his reports.
    Rubbish. He got one of the best biz scoops of modern times with his Northern Rock story.
    Isn't that what Mr Urquhart said? His story was just a direct conduit from the Treasury .
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    IanB2 said:

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    Because otherwise she has a long and rosy future?
    Not quite the same.

    She has a rocky road in front but she is not going to betray all she has worked for on brexit
    Not sure what you mean. In the referendum she campaigned for remain. Everything she worked on since then is her deal, which would be equally "betrayed" by No Deal as by Remain, surely?
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    Anazina said:

    AndyJS said:

    It could be that a surprisingly high percentage of people support either Remain or No Deal as the only desirable options, ie. that we should either stay in exactly as we are now, or if we are going to leave it should be a clean break from the EU. It would be interesting to see the polling on this, if it exists.

    The break under No Deal would be anything but clean!
    It will be like ripping off a bandage.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    edited January 2019

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    My response to MM applies here too.
    Yes I do understand your response. She has fought for Brexit, has a deal that is reasonable, and then to change to stoping brexit is just unimaginable and would be her last act in the party
    It doesn't necessarily stop Brexit. If her deal (or some other deal) was eventually acceptible to parliament, then we could invoke A50 again and immediately sign the deal (assuming the EU didn't play silly buggers). And changing the default to revoking could even help get some of her party's rebels on-side if she put the deal to a vote again before March 29th.

    Sure, she wouldn't be too popular with the party after that, but that's where the famed Theresa May Sense Of Duty comes in, right?
    If she gives MPs a guarantee that Article 50 will be revoked on 29th March, why would Remain-supporting MPs vote to re-invoke it after that date, and why would the EU tolerate it? If A50 is revoked on that date, then Remain have won, and further debate about the form of a Deal to leave the EU becomes pointless.

    Edit: If MPs were closing in on an agreement that could pass the Commons by 29th March, then it would be sensible to seek an extension from the EU.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    When peston was at the bbc he did just the same as Laura k. He was the conduit for the treasury, then there was a change of government and his direct contact went out the window along with the accuracy of most of his reports.
    Rubbish. He got one of the best biz scoops of modern times with his Northern Rock story.
    Isn't that what Mr Urquhart said? His story was just a direct conduit from the Treasury .
    He got that as leaked information via his unnamed inside source at the Treasury.

    AKA proper journalism.
  • Options

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    My response to MM applies here too.
    Yes I do understand your response. She has fought for Brexit, has a deal that is reasonable, and then to change to stoping brexit is just unimaginable and would be her last act in the party
    It doesn't necessarily stop Brexit. If her deal (or some other deal) was eventually acceptible to parliament, then we could invoke A50 again and immediately sign the deal (assuming the EU didn't play silly buggers). And changing the default to revoking could even help get some of her party's rebels on-side if she put the deal to a vote again before March 29th.

    Sure, she wouldn't be too popular with the party after that, but that's where the famed Theresa May Sense Of Duty comes in, right?
    You cannot revoke and invoke as part of this negotiation. If we revoke that is it and we remain as now in the EU
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    It could be that a surprisingly high percentage of people support either Remain or No Deal as the only desirable options, ie. that we should either stay in exactly as we are now, or if we are going to leave it should be a clean break from the EU. It would be interesting to see the polling on this, if it exists.

    That's where I am now. But if we do Remain we should be 10x as obstructing and irritating as we were beforehand ;)
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2019
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    When peston was at the bbc he did just the same as Laura k. He was the conduit for the treasury, then there was a change of government and his direct contact went out the window along with the accuracy of most of his reports.
    Rubbish. He got one of the best biz scoops of modern times with his Northern Rock story.
    And where did he get that info...it has been openly speculated that he got it via his hotline to Eddie Spheroids.

    Weird how now Gordon and Ed aren't in power anymore, he seems to be wide of the mark on basically every story these days.
  • Options

    IanB2 said:

    So many talk about stopping no deal but it amazes me that they think saying it it will happen

    There were several examples of mps yesterday on the media saying it has to be stopped but not how

    Some of these politicians say TM is to blame for the 29th March no deal exit date, but 498 of them voted for it and simply had not thought if through. Each and every one of them shares collective responsibility although not the 114 who voted against

    There are only 3 ways to stop it. Sign a deal (there is one ready to go), revoke A50 or extend it, subject to the 27 EU countries terms

    But you also have to have a government to put forward the legislation and a HOC to vote for it

    So when anyone says stop no deal, they have to say how

    I think people are deliberately being overly pedantic about this. When people say Theresa May should rule out no deal, they mean rule out it ever being the government's position, and that furthermore she should commit to doing everything in her power to avert it (rather than just everything that respects her red lines, or everything that keeps her party on side, etc.)

    I also think it is within her power practically. If she put forward a bill saying that, if no deal is reached by March 28th, we will automatically revoke A50, I'm pretty certain that would get through parliament. Not doing so is her choice, whether or not that's a justifiable choice.
    That would finish her in the party
    Because otherwise she has a long and rosy future?
    Not quite the same.

    She has a rocky road in front but she is not going to betray all she has worked for on brexit
    Not sure what you mean. In the referendum she campaigned for remain. Everything she worked on since then is her deal, which would be equally "betrayed" by No Deal as by Remain, surely?
    She will not surrender on Brexit and do anything that helps remain
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Sean_F said:


    If she gives MPs a guarantee that Article 50 will be revoked on 29th March, why would Remain-supporting MPs vote to re-invoke it after that date, and why would the EU tolerate it? If A50 is revoked on that date, then Remain have won, and further debate about the form of a Deal to leave the EU becomes pointless.

    Well, if Remain-supporting MPs become more stubborn, wouldn't Leave-supporting MPs similarly become less stubborn? Given what a large contingent the ERG forms, that could be helpful.

    But even if it made the parlimentary arithmetic harder- which it may well- that doesn't mean Brexit is off the table. Another GE, or the rise of UKIP (or a UKIP-like party) in the polls, or any number of things could change MPs' minds. They voted to invoke A50 in the first place, right?
  • Options
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    When peston was at the bbc he did just the same as Laura k. He was the conduit for the treasury, then there was a change of government and his direct contact went out the window along with the accuracy of most of his reports.
    Rubbish. He got one of the best biz scoops of modern times with his Northern Rock story.
    Isn't that what Mr Urquhart said? His story was just a direct conduit from the Treasury .
    He got that as leaked information via his unnamed inside source at the Treasury.

    AKA proper journalism.
    Proper journalism is more than just having a single source inside the Treasury and parroting them.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer

    The fact that Laura K is merely a mundane conduit is of importance because she is the political editor of the BBC. Her neutrality is not the issue, it is that she just parrots the lines she is fed.

    If you want a proper national TV hack, go for Peston. He's a risk taker and not always right but at least he works hard to get behind the official line, which means he often provides insights and even scoops that are beyond LK, who is just a bit rubbish.

    What Matt Frei says or doesn't say in a German bakehouse is utterly trivial.

    When peston was at the bbc he did just the same as Laura k. He was the conduit for the treasury, then there was a change of government and his direct contact went out the window along with the accuracy of most of his reports.
    Rubbish. He got one of the best biz scoops of modern times with his Northern Rock story.
    Isn't that what Mr Urquhart said? His story was just a direct conduit from the Treasury .
    He got that as leaked information via his unnamed inside source at the Treasury.

    AKA proper journalism.
    Peston repeats any old nonsense.
This discussion has been closed.