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SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited January 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meanwhile in other news

More than 175,000 jobs will be lost from struggling high street stores over the next year as the boom in internet shopping hastens their decline, researchers predict https://t.co/NvhwLmDTW3

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    First. Agree with much of this. Brexit won because people were dissatisfied with the social and economic status quo. Merely leaving the EU is a necessary, but not sufficient, solution.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    dixiedean said:

    First. Agree with much of this. Brexit won because people were dissatisfied with the social and economic status quo. Merely leaving the EU is a necessary, but not sufficient, solution.

    leaving the EU solves none of the issues, while creating many more
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    All 17 M&S closures were in areas that votied Leave. Is that true? Without looking I have my doubts about Antrim and Northwich at local authority level.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    A characteristically good header, Alastair.

    If we do stumble across the Brexit finish line, the immediate question will be "now what ?".
    Very little thought seems to have been given to the answer, let alone how to make it appealing.

    I don't suppose Dominic Cummings will be helping out.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited January 2019
    dixiedean said:

    First. Agree with much of this. Brexit won because people were dissatisfied with the social and economic status quo. Merely leaving the EU is a necessary, but not sufficient, solution.

    It's not a necessary solution - but it was an attack that the Tories made possible due to internal dynamics...

    It definitely won't be sufficient (heck I expect it will make things far worse) and once it comes into effect the lack of improvement (that the Leaders of Leave promised) will result in some interesting long term consequences...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Meantime, an interesting article on Kamala Harris's early political career, which makes me look forward to the forthcoming Democratic debates...

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/01/24/kamala-harris-2020-history-224126
    As Stearns tells it, Harris rose from her seat at the front of the sanctuary and stepped behind Terence Hallinan, the incumbent who billed himself as “America’s most progressive district attorney.” She told the audience, “You know Terence Hallinan has attacked Bill Fazio for being caught in a massage parlor,” a reference to a 1998 raid. Fazio, a former prosecutor who had run two close races against Hallinan and was now taking a third shot at the office, maintained he was there to conduct interviews for a legal case he was working on. He was never charged with any crime.

    Then, Harris walked behind Fazio, Stearns said, and recounted the times her opponent had criticized Hallinan “for people having sex in his office,” referring to an incident in which two of Hallinan’s prosecutors were found in flagrante delicto inside the building.

    “And then she walked back to the middle and said, ‘I want to make a commitment to you that my campaign is not going to be about negative attacks,’” said Stearns, who is still a Democratic strategist in the city. “’I believe we need to talk about the issues and the policies and the way we’re going to move our criminal justice system forward.”

    The response was immediate. “People just jumped on their feet and gave her a standing ovation,” Stearns said. “And I was at the back of the church, and the look on the face of Terence Hallinan and Bill Fazio was, ‘Oh, shit.’’”
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Nigelb said:

    A characteristically good header, Alastair.

    If we do stumble across the Brexit finish line, the immediate question will be "now what ?".
    Very little thought seems to have been given to the answer, let alone how to make it appealing.

    I don't suppose Dominic Cummings will be helping out.

    He might be Chief of Staff to PM Gove..

    As he was when he was at DoE..

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    I work in a shop where a lot of our customers are elderly women, and we've sold a fair few copies of 'The Ice Twins' over the years.

    Regretfully I'm not sure we'll be putting out as many copies of this one.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Nigelb said:

    A characteristically good header, Alastair.

    If we do stumble across the Brexit finish line, the immediate question will be "now what ?".
    Very little thought seems to have been given to the answer, let alone how to make it appealing.

    I don't suppose Dominic Cummings will be helping out.

    They will be like the dog that finally catches the Ice Cream van...
  • Danny565 said:

    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    I work in a shop where a lot of our customers are elderly women, and we've sold a fair few copies of 'The Ice Twins' over the years.

    Regretfully I'm not sure we'll be putting out as many copies of this one.
    The elderly women will be buying this one over the internet - another example of high street gloom.
  • The Uk should suggest that instead of the current Backstop proposal, the fall back position would be that there would be no hard border between Ireland and NI but the EU could put any hard border they require between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

    Effectively allowing free movement of goods between the UK and Ireland but stopping this spreading to other EU countries with checks of imports from Ireland and the Uk at Calais, Rotterdam etc

    So a hard border in the English Channel rather than in the Irish Sea.

    There is talk in Ireland that this is the EUs answer to not having the power to force Ireland and the UK to put a hard border in place between Ireland and NI in the event of No Deal.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    So how many copies did they run off?
  • dixiedean said:

    First. Agree with much of this. Brexit won because people were dissatisfied with the social and economic status quo. Merely leaving the EU is a necessary, but not sufficient, solution.

    What else is required?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    So how many copies did they run off?
    Another Brexit novel eh?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    Pro_Rata said:

    All 17 M&S closures were in areas that votied Leave. Is that true? Without looking I have my doubts about Antrim and Northwich at local authority level.

    OK, yes. Razor edge Leave constituencies / count areas or, if you prefer, slightly more remainy than the overall 51.9/48.1 result.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    Seems quite apposite to me.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    A to-your-door sex service? The fuck fuck tuktuk?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    I agree with this very good header.

    But can I mention that there is one Tory MP who is at least trying to think about the challenges of the future.

    http://johnpenrose.org/wp/2018/10/01/a-shining-city/

    The fact that he is totally unknown probably tells you all you need to know about the lack of thought within the higher reaches or indeed any of the reaches of the Tory party.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    SeanT said:

    Nigelb said:

    A characteristically good header, Alastair.

    If we do stumble across the Brexit finish line, the immediate question will be "now what ?".
    Very little thought seems to have been given to the answer, let alone how to make it appealing.

    I don't suppose Dominic Cummings will be helping out.

    It’s good to see the eloquent Meeks returning to sanity. I also agree with much of his argument - one of the worst things about Brexit is the way it has devoured everyone’s energy and time. However I do not share his pessimism re the Tories. TMay will go. Someone better will replace. Corbyn will likely still be Labour leader in 2022, just even older and less appealing. And Labour cannot win without Scotland, and they’re going nowhere in Scotland.

    To my mind, the Tories should be favourites to win in 2022, probably with a very small majority.

    That is, unless Brexit becomes the apocalypse some predict...
    “Someone better will replace.....”

    Who, exactly?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Thread summary - after Brexit we need a bit of vision.

    Correct - none of the parties offering anything at the moment.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Perhaps Mx Tremayne could autograph a copy of that unpublished manuscript and offer it as a prize for a pb competition?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Nigelb said:

    A characteristically good header, Alastair.

    If we do stumble across the Brexit finish line, the immediate question will be "now what ?".
    Very little thought seems to have been given to the answer, let alone how to make it appealing.

    I don't suppose Dominic Cummings will be helping out.

    It’s good to see the eloquent Meeks returning to sanity. I also agree with much of his argument - one of the worst things about Brexit is the way it has devoured everyone’s energy and time. However I do not share his pessimism re the Tories. TMay will go. Someone better will replace. Corbyn will likely still be Labour leader in 2022, just even older and less appealing. And Labour cannot win without Scotland, and they’re going nowhere in Scotland.

    To my mind, the Tories should be favourites to win in 2022, probably with a very small majority.

    That is, unless Brexit becomes the apocalypse some predict...
    “Someone better will replace.....”

    Who, exactly?
    Your cat IIRC....
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...

    twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    A to-your-door sex service? The fuck fuck tuktuk?
    Paging @Dura_Ace :D
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited January 2019
    TGOHF said:

    Thread summary - after Brexit we need a bit of vision.

    Correct - none of the parties offering anything at the moment.

    One of the best thing about getting Brexit out of the way is that we can go back to thinking about important stuff. Brexit will be a mere footnote in the history of the 21st century, things like climate change are where our energies need to be focused.
  • The Uk should suggest that instead of the current Backstop proposal, the fall back position would be that there would be no hard border between Ireland and NI but the EU could put any hard border they require between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

    Effectively allowing free movement of goods between the UK and Ireland but stopping this spreading to other EU countries with checks of imports from Ireland and the Uk at Calais, Rotterdam etc

    So a hard border in the English Channel rather than in the Irish Sea.

    There is talk in Ireland that this is the EUs answer to not having the power to force Ireland and the UK to put a hard border in place between Ireland and NI in the event of No Deal.

    That's probably the most stupid idea ever posted on PB.

    I love how you trample over Irish sovereignty.

    Are you related Oliver Cromwell or Pope Adrian?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The top of the shop looks to have a damp issue in the photo.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855
    edited January 2019
    Excellent header.

    To go through all of this principally in order to do trade deals with the back of beyond, stop Romanians coming to pick fruit, and be able to boss around our own fish, does not pass the cost/benefit test.

    Brexit, for it to make any sense whatsoever, has to lead to a big change in our domestic politics, and the change has to be one that membership of the EU would have prohibited - otherwise we did not need Brexit to make the change.

    Therefore we need a general election, asap after Brexit, where the ERG vision of a small state, low tax, light regulation UK is pitched against the Corbyn/McDonnell plan to secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.

    It's a stark choice that cannot be fudged. If we are not up for either of those paths, if we want to just keep on keeping on, then we might as well stop Brexit right now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Thinking back to Tyndall's list of items that need regulation at a global level.

    iirc Sean Fear stuck carbon emissions up there. I think another needs adding - antibiotic use.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Meanwhile violent crime up 19%

    Shocking.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Nigelb said:

    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    Seems quite apposite to me.

    Though an extra definite article would render it quite Conradian.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    The trouble with laying the Tories on most seats is the scenario where the Tory party hangs together (more or less) and Brexit doesn't happen. If Brexit happens there'll be an anti-Tory backlash and conversely if it doesn't the swing could go in their favour.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2019

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Their position seems to be "Corbyn should back a second referendum, even though it's not his personal preference, even though a second referendum is unlikely to have the votes in Parliament to pass, even though a Remain vote is unlikely even if a referendum does happen, and even though it would immensely harm Labour's chances of winning an election".

    It's not the most enticing offer in history...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited January 2019

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    I have been wondering for a while just how much support there is in Pariament for a "People's Vote" - Altough it's all we've ever heard about in the media for the past year it always seems to be the same 10-20 people banging on about it.

    Then I saw Grieve on Newsnight last week and they were trying to get him to say that a second referendum was on the way and all he came up was a load of waffle...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited January 2019

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?
    I thought there would be a lot more backing for it.
  • IanB2 said:

    The trouble with laying the Tories on most seats is the scenario where the Tory party hangs together (more or less) and Brexit doesn't happen. If Brexit happens there'll be an anti-Tory backlash and conversely if it doesn't the swing could go in their favour.

    No, just no. A lot of Tory voters would desert the party if the Brexit vote gets ignored.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    kinabalu said:

    Excellent header.

    To go through all of this principally in order to do trade deals with the back of beyond, stop Romanians coming to pick fruit, and be able to boss around our own fish, does not pass the cost/benefit test.

    Brexit, for it to make any sense whatsoever, has to lead to a big change in our domestic politics, and the change has to be one that membership of the EU would have prohibited - otherwise we did not need Brexit to make the change.

    Therefore we need a general election, asap after Brexit, where the ERG vision of a small state, low tax, light regulation UK is pitched against the Corbyn/McDonnell plan to secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.

    It's a stark choice that cannot be fudged. If we are not up for either of those paths, if we want to just keep on keeping on, then we might as well stop Brexit right now.

    We might as well.
    The rest of your argument is more than a little flawed. A narrow vote for Brexit has already been used to argue for a whole host of things not on the original leave prospectus. To further use it to leverage a retreat to either political extreme is absurd.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    What do we think of Campbell-Bannerman MEP's response to the Airbus CEO's comments:

    "Here we have a German CEO putting EU interests first before his own employees. A disgrace. As with Galileo UK should make plans to take over these plants and sell into the global marketplace with our own planes."

    I have heard of Trotskyists who think like this - "Seize the plants! Launch our own projects!" Haven't heard it from the Conservative Party up to now.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Danny565 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Their position seems to be "Corbyn should back a second referendum, even though it's not his personal preference, even though a second referendum is unlikely to have the votes in Parliament to pass, even though a Remain vote is unlikely even if a referendum does happen, and even though it would immensely harm Labour's chances of winning an election".

    It's not the most enticing offer in history...
    +1
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
    Well thats why it was pulled. So we can continue the 'calls' for it, without rejecting it, and we are no further in sorting this mess out.

    Again. Not losing is akin to winning it seems to our politicans.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited January 2019

    IanB2 said:

    The trouble with laying the Tories on most seats is the scenario where the Tory party hangs together (more or less) and Brexit doesn't happen. If Brexit happens there'll be an anti-Tory backlash and conversely if it doesn't the swing could go in their favour.

    No, just no. A lot of Tory voters would desert the party if the Brexit vote gets ignored.
    Even if it is done (or forced) by the opposition and only a handful of Tories? Or indeed by the people.
  • Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
    If you're hoping for things to get taken off the table once they lose a vote, maybe May should lead by example.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    12 at least according to Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/labour-frontbenchers-warn-of-opposition-to-second-brexit-referendum
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    I reckon if it looked a viable proposition, there is hidden support within the Tory party for it
  • What do we think of Campbell-Bannerman MEP's response to the Airbus CEO's comments:

    "Here we have a German CEO putting EU interests first before his own employees. A disgrace. As with Galileo UK should make plans to take over these plants and sell into the global marketplace with our own planes."

    I have heard of Trotskyists who think like this - "Seize the plants! Launch our own projects!" Haven't heard it from the Conservative Party up to now.

    We think he is stark, raving bonkers.
  • What do we think of Campbell-Bannerman MEP's response to the Airbus CEO's comments:

    "Here we have a German CEO putting EU interests first before his own employees. A disgrace. As with Galileo UK should make plans to take over these plants and sell into the global marketplace with our own planes."

    I have heard of Trotskyists who think like this - "Seize the plants! Launch our own projects!" Haven't heard it from the Conservative Party up to now.

    Just madness
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    I reckon if it looked a viable proposition, there is hidden support within the Tory party for it
    Sorry, I've seen this suggested by a few people on Twitter, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever. The idea that Jeremy Corbyn's endorsement is going to sway Tory MPs......?!!?

    We'll get a test case next week anyway, because if not enough MPs even have the guts to postpone Brexit by a few months (by voting for the Yvette Cooper bill), we can be 100% sure that they'll never vote for something that could overturn Brexit altogether.
  • Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
    If you're hoping for things to get taken off the table once they lose a vote, maybe May should lead by example.
    No, I think MPs should make a choice between the three possible options.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    Big G repeating the lie too

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
    If you're hoping for things to get taken off the table once they lose a vote, maybe May should lead by example.
    No, I think MPs should make a choice between the three possible options.
    And if fewer than 50% of MPs choose any one option?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    IanB2 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    I reckon if it looked a viable proposition, there is hidden support within the Tory party for it
    Greater than 10%?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    Yes, he is a Brexiteer. Always has been. Always will be. If Tony Benn was against it, so is Jezza.

    But strategically, Corbyn doesn't care what happens, as long as whatever mess does happen is fully labelled as 'Tory'.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    12 at least according to Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/labour-frontbenchers-warn-of-opposition-to-second-brexit-referendum
    Can you come up with 12 names who would defy Corbyn to oppose a referendum?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010

    The Uk should suggest that instead of the current Backstop proposal, the fall back position would be that there would be no hard border between Ireland and NI but the EU could put any hard border they require between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

    Effectively allowing free movement of goods between the UK and Ireland but stopping this spreading to other EU countries with checks of imports from Ireland and the Uk at Calais, Rotterdam etc

    So a hard border in the English Channel rather than in the Irish Sea.

    There is talk in Ireland that this is the EUs answer to not having the power to force Ireland and the UK to put a hard border in place between Ireland and NI in the event of No Deal.

    And the answer to the EU not having the power to put a hard border in place between Ireland the EU?
  • Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    Big G repeating the lie too

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Now BJO - I do not lie, have never been accused by anyone of lying, and it is not in my nature

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    Big G repeating the lie too

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Referendum is party policy. Just get on with it Jezza.
  • Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
    If you're hoping for things to get taken off the table once they lose a vote, maybe May should lead by example.
    No, I think MPs should make a choice between the three possible options.
    And if fewer than 50% of MPs choose any one option?
    Then they've chosen crashing out with No Deal.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    IanB2 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    I reckon if it looked a viable proposition, there is hidden support within the Tory party for it
    Greater than 10%?
    I think if both Corbyn and May supported, they'd be able to pull enough of their parties along with them. If just May, no Corbyn, then I'm not sure. Just Corbyn, no May, definitely not.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    What do we think of Campbell-Bannerman MEP's response to the Airbus CEO's comments:

    "Here we have a German CEO putting EU interests first before his own employees. A disgrace. As with Galileo UK should make plans to take over these plants and sell into the global marketplace with our own planes."

    I have heard of Trotskyists who think like this - "Seize the plants! Launch our own projects!" Haven't heard it from the Conservative Party up to now.

    The lack of knowledge about the modern world, never mind business, amongst the political class is sometimes staggering.

    Only two companies build the largest planes. There's a reason.

    What an idiot.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,680
    GIN1138 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D
    You been at the sherry GIN, what wild flight of fancy suggests that dead duck will fly.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
    If you're hoping for things to get taken off the table once they lose a vote, maybe May should lead by example.
    No, I think MPs should make a choice between the three possible options.
    And if fewer than 50% of MPs choose any one option?
    Then they've chosen crashing out with No Deal.
    Fair enough. Your line about establishing there's no majority for an option so it could be taken off the table sounded more like an (informal) run-off.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    Yes, he is a Brexiteer. Always has been. Always will be. If Tony Benn was against it, so is Jezza.

    But strategically, Corbyn doesn't care what happens, as long as whatever mess does happen is fully labelled as 'Tory'.

    Thick though he may be, he has realised the Tories are in zugswang, and isn’t going to do anything to change the rules of the game.

  • The Uk should suggest that instead of the current Backstop proposal, the fall back position would be that there would be no hard border between Ireland and NI but the EU could put any hard border they require between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

    Effectively allowing free movement of goods between the UK and Ireland but stopping this spreading to other EU countries with checks of imports from Ireland and the Uk at Calais, Rotterdam etc

    So a hard border in the English Channel rather than in the Irish Sea.

    There is talk in Ireland that this is the EUs answer to not having the power to force Ireland and the UK to put a hard border in place between Ireland and NI in the event of No Deal.

    That's probably the most stupid idea ever posted on PB.

    I love how you trample over Irish sovereignty.

    Are you related Oliver Cromwell or Pope Adrian?
    Its not trampling it's a suggestion.

    If Ireland wants to either come up with a technical solution or put up an Irish border it wouldn't be necessary but they've deliberately since Varadkar took over refused to engage on technical solutions. Put the ball in their court.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,349

    The Uk should suggest that instead of the current Backstop proposal, the fall back position would be that there would be no hard border between Ireland and NI but the EU could put any hard border they require between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

    Effectively allowing free movement of goods between the UK and Ireland but stopping this spreading to other EU countries with checks of imports from Ireland and the Uk at Calais, Rotterdam etc

    So a hard border in the English Channel rather than in the Irish Sea.

    There is talk in Ireland that this is the EUs answer to not having the power to force Ireland and the UK to put a hard border in place between Ireland and NI in the event of No Deal.

    That's probably the most stupid idea ever posted on PB.

    I love how you trample over Irish sovereignty.

    Are you related Oliver Cromwell or Pope Adrian?

    Related to this is a question: Until the EU and IR are of one consistent voice as to what they will do about the border, and who has power and authority to do it, if there is no deal (maybe Mr Trump could offer advice) then there is a very important missing fact. As long as it is a missing fact you can't blame Hard Brexiteers (of whom I am not one) taking advantage of it.

  • timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010
    GIN1138 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D
    Wouldn't the new Murrison amendment make that less likely? (Assuming the EU says no.)
  • Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass....

    Well, it would certainly help, wouldn't it?

    But it may well be that there's no majority in parliament for a second people's vote. If so, it would be good to establish that, so that it can be taken off the table.
    If you're hoping for things to get taken off the table once they lose a vote, maybe May should lead by example.
    No, I think MPs should make a choice between the three possible options.
    And if fewer than 50% of MPs choose any one option?
    Then they've chosen crashing out with No Deal.
    Fair enough. Your line about establishing there's no majority for an option so it could be taken off the table sounded more like an (informal) run-off.
    A run-off vote could be useful. At the moment various groups are refusing to support the EU's deal because they hope for something else. Dashing those hopes may be necessary as part of the process.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587

    What do we think of Campbell-Bannerman MEP's response to the Airbus CEO's comments:

    "Here we have a German CEO putting EU interests first before his own employees. A disgrace. As with Galileo UK should make plans to take over these plants and sell into the global marketplace with our own planes."

    I have heard of Trotskyists who think like this - "Seize the plants! Launch our own projects!" Haven't heard it from the Conservative Party up to now.

    The lack of knowledge about the modern world, never mind business, amongst the political class is sometimes staggering.

    Only two companies build the largest planes. There's a reason.

    What an idiot.
    Technically, we could do it. If we were prepared to bankrupt the nation.
    And we probably wouldn’t sell very many planes.

  • Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587

    What do we think of Campbell-Bannerman MEP's response to the Airbus CEO's comments:

    "Here we have a German CEO putting EU interests first before his own employees. A disgrace. As with Galileo UK should make plans to take over these plants and sell into the global marketplace with our own planes."

    I have heard of Trotskyists who think like this - "Seize the plants! Launch our own projects!" Haven't heard it from the Conservative Party up to now.

    The lack of knowledge about the modern world, never mind business, amongst the political class is sometimes staggering.

    Only two companies build the largest planes. There's a reason.

    What an idiot.
    Technically, we could do it. If we were prepared to bankrupt the nation.
    And we probably wouldn’t sell very many planes.

  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    The trouble with laying the Tories on most seats is the scenario where the Tory party hangs together (more or less) and Brexit doesn't happen. If Brexit happens there'll be an anti-Tory backlash and conversely if it doesn't the swing could go in their favour.

    No, just no. A lot of Tory voters would desert the party if the Brexit vote gets ignored.
    Even if it is done (or forced) by the opposition and only a handful of Tories? Or indeed by the people.
    Yes when you are the government the buck stops with you.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Jonathan said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    Big G repeating the lie too

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Referendum is party policy. Just get on with it Jezza.
    Luciana (I hate Corbyn so much i couldnt bring myself to say a Labour Government would be good) Berger
    Mike (I hate Corbyn so much i repeat the IRA Hamas Hezbollah slur most weeks) Gapes
    Chukka( I see an opportunity for me here) Ummana

    Have royally fooked this up

    Lets blame Corbyn!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    That’s not accurate. The UK-wide backstop was done at May’s insistence, and the political declaration is a product of May’s red lines.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D
    I have maintained all along TM deal, maybe tweaked, was a good deal but this record defeat was the result of the two extremes, leave and remain, voting it down on the hope of winning their arguments

    With no deal and referendum virtually off the table it has to be this deal or then what
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855
    Nigelb said:

    We might as well.
    The rest of your argument is more than a little flawed. A narrow vote for Brexit has already been used to argue for a whole host of things not on the original leave prospectus. To further use it to leverage a retreat to either political extreme is absurd.

    The point of Brexit as sold by its proponents is that we will have the ability to take a political and economic path that our EU membership prevents us doing.

    This by definition must be a radical path since if it were not we can do it as an EU member and thus would not need Brexit.

    Ergo a Brexit that does not lead to radical change is, quite literally, pointless.

    Why is that argument absurd?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    The EU have made it pretty clear that other options are on the table though, right? Just not the ones the ERG are asking for. Have they ever said that a deal including a customs union (for example) is off the table?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,349
    GIN1138 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D

    Agree. It sounds improbable, but it is much less improbable than the alternatives. There is at least a thinkable route to TM's deal; there is a thinkable route to no deal, but a huge majority intend to ensure it does not happen. There is no coherent route to any other outcome. Therefore it will happen. If we reach the middle/late March like this it will concentrate minds wonderfully, like being hanged in a fortnight.

  • Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    That’s not accurate. The UK-wide backstop was done at May’s insistence, and the political declaration is a product of May’s red lines.
    The political declaration, yes, but that doesn't rule out a different end-point if both sides agree one.

    The UK-wide backstop was actually a triumph of British diplomacy, and regarded by some in the EU as a major climbdown on their part. It's a funny old world indeed!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    The trouble with laying the Tories on most seats is the scenario where the Tory party hangs together (more or less) and Brexit doesn't happen. If Brexit happens there'll be an anti-Tory backlash and conversely if it doesn't the swing could go in their favour.

    No, just no. A lot of Tory voters would desert the party if the Brexit vote gets ignored.
    Even if it is done (or forced) by the opposition and only a handful of Tories? Or indeed by the people.
    Yes when you are the government the buck stops with you.
    Certainly, when things happen, it's the government's fault. Something not happening because of an opposition win would be an interesting case.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    That’s not accurate. The UK-wide backstop was done at May’s insistence, and the political declaration is a product of May’s red lines.
    The political declaration, yes, but that doesn't rule out a different end-point if both sides agree one.

    The UK-wide backstop was actually a triumph of British diplomacy, and regarded by some in the EU as a major climbdown on their part. It's a funny old world indeed!
    Then why not call this triumph ‘May’s deal’?
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    What are the golden couple (Adonis and Campbell) going to do next?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Brexit is necessary but not sufficient.

    The current system we were locked in is great for the wealthy and the poor in eastern europe.

    It's not good for the lower skilled members of our community. We have an obligation to look to their interests.

    Brexit will allow our politicians the ability to address these deep seated problems. I doubt they will take it, but they should. And if they don't we can sack them and replace them with others who will.
  • Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    12 at least according to Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/labour-frontbenchers-warn-of-opposition-to-second-brexit-referendum
    Can you come up with 12 names who would defy Corbyn to oppose a referendum?
    The article does name a couple but there is no point in denying it, the labour mps in leave areas will vote it down. It is over due to lack of Parliamentary support
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    GIN1138 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D
    I have maintained all along TM deal, maybe tweaked, was a good deal but this record defeat was the result of the two extremes, leave and remain, voting it down on the hope of winning their arguments

    With no deal and referendum virtually off the table it has to be this deal or then what
    Need the DUP , the ERG and a few Labour "referendum respecters" to get on board with Murrison's amendment.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    You know the brown stuff that comes out of a cow's rear end. That's a better argument. This is May's deal. This is her triumph.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    Big G repeating the lie too

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Referendum is party policy. Just get on with it Jezza.
    Luciana (I hate Corbyn so much i couldnt bring myself to say a Labour Government would be good) Berger
    Mike (I hate Corbyn so much i repeat the IRA Hamas Hezbollah slur most weeks) Gapes
    Chukka( I see an opportunity for me here) Ummana

    Have royally fooked this up

    Lets blame Corbyn!
    When will Corbyn deliver on his promise to members at conference. Get on with it.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    algarkirk said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D

    Agree. It sounds improbable, but it is much less improbable than the alternatives. There is at least a thinkable route to TM's deal; there is a thinkable route to no deal, but a huge majority intend to ensure it does not happen. There is no coherent route to any other outcome. Therefore it will happen. If we reach the middle/late March like this it will concentrate minds wonderfully, like being hanged in a fortnight.

    Yeah, when May says to Labour "Hey guys, my party is about to destroy its reputation for competence for a generation, fancy rescuing us? Don't worry, I'm sure you won't lose too many of your voters to the Lib Dems and UKIP in the process", how will they be able to resist?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    SeanT said:

    For those FPT asking the title of my new thriller...


    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1088388245354774528?s=21

    On the one hand marketing may be problematic, on the other hand no-one ever went broke underestimating the purience and taste of the general public.
  • Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    The EU have made it pretty clear that other options are on the table though, right? Just not the ones the ERG are asking for. Have they ever said that a deal including a customs union (for example) is off the table?
    Well, it depends what you mean. Certainly the Labour unicorn-paddock of a customs union with all the advantages of the single market but with no freedom of movement obligation and no state-aid rules is completely out with the fairies.

    But if the idea is a closer relationship than is envisaged in the political declaration, that would possible. To get there we first need to ratify the Withdrawal Agreement (i.e. sign 'the deal').
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Meantime, an interesting article on Kamala Harris's early political career, which makes me look forward to the forthcoming Democratic debates...

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/01/24/kamala-harris-2020-history-224126
    As Stearns tells it, Harris rose from her seat at the front of the sanctuary and stepped behind Terence Hallinan, the incumbent who billed himself as “America’s most progressive district attorney.” She told the audience, “You know Terence Hallinan has attacked Bill Fazio for being caught in a massage parlor,” a reference to a 1998 raid. Fazio, a former prosecutor who had run two close races against Hallinan and was now taking a third shot at the office, maintained he was there to conduct interviews for a legal case he was working on. He was never charged with any crime.

    Then, Harris walked behind Fazio, Stearns said, and recounted the times her opponent had criticized Hallinan “for people having sex in his office,” referring to an incident in which two of Hallinan’s prosecutors were found in flagrante delicto inside the building.

    “And then she walked back to the middle and said, ‘I want to make a commitment to you that my campaign is not going to be about negative attacks,’” said Stearns, who is still a Democratic strategist in the city. “’I believe we need to talk about the issues and the policies and the way we’re going to move our criminal justice system forward.”

    The response was immediate. “People just jumped on their feet and gave her a standing ovation,” Stearns said. “And I was at the back of the church, and the look on the face of Terence Hallinan and Bill Fazio was, ‘Oh, shit.’’”

    Classic.

    X accused Y of doing A
    Y accused X of doing B

    But I am definitely not going to remind you of either A or B.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Eck Big Eck charged
  • Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    That’s not accurate. The UK-wide backstop was done at May’s insistence, and the political declaration is a product of May’s red lines.
    The political declaration, yes, but that doesn't rule out a different end-point if both sides agree one.

    The UK-wide backstop was actually a triumph of British diplomacy, and regarded by some in the EU as a major climbdown on their part. It's a funny old world indeed!
    Then why not call this triumph ‘May’s deal’?
    For the obvious reason!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Peoples voter MPs repeating the lie that if Jeremy Corbyn backed it It could pass.

    Christ these people are intellectually Bankrupt

    Owen Jones 🌹

    Verified account

    @OwenJones84
    4m4 minutes ago
    More Owen Jones 🌹 Retweeted Adam Payne
    This is just dishonesty. Even if Labour backed a referendum, a third of the Shadow Cabinet would resign and up to a quarter of Labour MPs would vote against. Less than 10% of Tory MPs would back it: that’s why it’s doomed. So why isn’t Sarah Wollaston blaming her colleagues?

    Which members of the shadow cabinet would resign?
    A report said most. It does beg the question why Starmer is still there

    Corbyn is more a Brexiteer than ERG

    Today a second referendum died
    I think Theresa's going to pull her deal off (with a couple of tweaks) Big G. :D
    You been at the sherry GIN, what wild flight of fancy suggests that dead duck will fly.
    Afternoon Malc. :D

    Everyone's opinions are shifting.

    First ERG started to move at the end of last week. DUP started to move at the start of this week.

    Now "People's Vote" lobby are moving...

    Logically they will all have to agree on a deal in the end as their preferred outcomes (No Deal and People's Vote/AKA Brexit cancelled) are not viable.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Jonathan said:

    timmo said:

    Are the Peoples vote team having another collective breakdown today like yesterday?
    Femis tweet about Ireland was one of the most crass things i have ever read on Twitter.

    Their announcement to camera this morning looked as if each and everyone of them realised they do not have the support and it is over. Sarah Wollaston even begged Corbyn to back them. A conservative mp begging a labour leader for support against her party. Bizarre
    I love the way that supporters of May's deal say these things with no hint of irony.
    That's because it's not 'May's deal', it's the EU's deal.
    The EU have made it pretty clear that other options are on the table though, right? Just not the ones the ERG are asking for. Have they ever said that a deal including a customs union (for example) is off the table?
    Well, it depends what you mean. Certainly the Labour unicorn-paddock of a customs union with all the advantages of the single market but with no freedom of movement obligation and no state-aid rules is completely out with the fairies.

    But if the idea is a closer relationship than is envisaged in the political declaration, that would possible. To get there we first need to ratify the Withdrawal Agreement (i.e. sign 'the deal').
    I'm not sure many of our politicans grasp that the WA is the start of the process. Not the end of it...
This discussion has been closed.