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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The January 29th 2019 amendments and the extension rumours

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited February 3 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The January 29th 2019 amendments and the extension rumours

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 14,268
    First!
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,548
    edited February 3
    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 1,961
    Is there a definition of what exactly that Betway "No Deal Brexit" bet means? Considering the Betfair "No Deal" bet isn't what it appears?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,037
    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 6,155
    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.

    It’s a phlegmatic approach to life that means Britain could just as easily fudge the outcome of Brexit, condemning the nation to years of hopeless anger from those who would rather our politicians had plotted a course based on rigorous research and open discussion.

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.

    The ’67 devaluation followed reckless Tory mismanagement in the early part of the decade. Likewise, Britain was broke in 1976 following a Tory spending spree. Ted Heath, who oversaw that spending spree, also thought little about the consequences for poorer communities of joining the EEC, just as Margaret Thatcher lazily left the fate of steelworkers and coalminers to the vagaries of the job market. Deregulation of the City sucked more money into London at the expense of the regions. Lastly, the Tories delayed and delayed a decision on ERM membership until crashing out was inevitable.

    Across the Channel, each of these developments was handled very differently. Which is not to say that France and Germany have all the answers. It’s just that the divergence with our neighbours over the need to plan is stark.'
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 25,229
    edited February 3
    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    '...the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). '

    Almost overnight? It took a decade.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.

    It’s a phlegmatic approach to life that means Britain could just as easily fudge the outcome of Brexit, condemning the nation to years of hopeless anger from those who would rather our politicians had plotted a course based on rigorous research and open discussion.

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.

    The ’67 devaluation followed reckless Tory mismanagement in the early part of the decade. Likewise, Britain was broke in 1976 following a Tory spending spree. Ted Heath, who oversaw that spending spree, also thought little about the consequences for poorer communities of joining the EEC, just as Margaret Thatcher lazily left the fate of steelworkers and coalminers to the vagaries of the job market. Deregulation of the City sucked more money into London at the expense of the regions. Lastly, the Tories delayed and delayed a decision on ERM membership until crashing out was inevitable.

    Across the Channel, each of these developments was handled very differently. Which is not to say that France and Germany have all the answers. It’s just that the divergence with our neighbours over the need to plan is stark.'

    Long term central planning is communism.

    Free markets are capitalism.

    Which model is better for indiviual freedom?

    Which model is better for the consumer?

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 6,155

    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.

    It’s a phlegmatic approach to life that means Britain could just as easily fudge the outcome of Brexit, condemning the nation to years of hopeless anger from those who would rather our politicians had plotted a course based on rigorous research and open discussion.

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.

    The ’67 devaluation followed reckless Tory mismanagement in the early part of the decade. Likewise, Britain was broke in 1976 following a Tory spending spree. Ted Heath, who oversaw that spending spree, also thought little about the consequences for poorer communities of joining the EEC, just as Margaret Thatcher lazily left the fate of steelworkers and coalminers to the vagaries of the job market. Deregulation of the City sucked more money into London at the expense of the regions. Lastly, the Tories delayed and delayed a decision on ERM membership until crashing out was inevitable.

    Across the Channel, each of these developments was handled very differently. Which is not to say that France and Germany have all the answers. It’s just that the divergence with our neighbours over the need to plan is stark.'

    Long term central planning is communism.

    Free markets are capitalism.

    Which model is better for indiviual freedom?

    Which model is better for the consumer?

    Maybe a Scandinavian model.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited February 3
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.
    Following the tarde deal between Japan and the EU, Japan will no longer have prohibitive tariffs on the export of cars to the EU. So there is no longer a need to assemble cars in the EU rather than export thme from the home factory in Japan.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 24,925
    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.

    It’s a phlegmatic approach to life that means Britain could just as easily fudge the outcome of Brexit, condemning the nation to years of hopeless anger from those who would rather our politicians had plotted a course based on rigorous research and open discussion.

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.

    The ’67 devaluation followed reckless Tory mismanagement in the early part of the decade. Likewise, Britain was broke in 1976 following a Tory spending spree. Ted Heath, who oversaw that spending spree, also thought little about the consequences for poorer communities of joining the EEC, just as Margaret Thatcher lazily left the fate of steelworkers and coalminers to the vagaries of the job market. Deregulation of the City sucked more money into London at the expense of the regions. Lastly, the Tories delayed and delayed a decision on ERM membership until crashing out was inevitable.

    Across the Channel, each of these developments was handled very differently. Which is not to say that France and Germany have all the answers. It’s just that the divergence with our neighbours over the need to plan is stark.'

    And yet, we're now about 160% richer than in 1959. So, the view that everything will turn out okay is not unreasonable.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.

    It’s a phlegmatic approach to life that means Britain could just as easily fudge the outcome of Brexit, condemning the nation to years of hopeless anger from those who would rather our politicians had plotted a course based on rigorous research and open discussion.

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.

    The ’67 devaluation followed reckless Tory mismanagement in the early part of the decade. Likewise, Britain was broke in 1976 following a Tory spending spree. Ted Heath, who oversaw that spending spree, also thought little about the consequences for poorer communities of joining the EEC, just as Margaret Thatcher lazily left the fate of steelworkers and coalminers to the vagaries of the job market. Deregulation of the City sucked more money into London at the expense of the regions. Lastly, the Tories delayed and delayed a decision on ERM membership until crashing out was inevitable.

    Across the Channel, each of these developments was handled very differently. Which is not to say that France and Germany have all the answers. It’s just that the divergence with our neighbours over the need to plan is stark.'

    Long term central planning is communism.

    Free markets are capitalism.

    Which model is better for indiviual freedom?

    Which model is better for the consumer?

    Maybe a Scandinavian model.
    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 450
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177
    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    [snip]

    Except...there was long-term planning to build stocks of coal at Didcot and other power stations ahead of a confrontation with the miners. I had a house in Brum at the time backing on to a railway line that went down south. There were constant lengthy coal trains heading past, going south. Irony is, there must have been plenty of overtime for miners ahead of that miners strike that, er, broke the miners.

    (Remembering of course that the aftermath of Thatcher winning that miners strike was that she oversaw fewer pit closures than Labour had undertaken.)

    In this position, I'm in no doubt that Maggie would have started No Deal planning from Day One, well before the Artcile 50 notice was served.
  • MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    I mean it is not as if the EU never took business away from the UK and gave it to other countries is it?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 6,155

    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    '...the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). '

    Almost overnight? It took a decade.
    Perhaps he is referring to the Volte Face by MacMillan's Government to apply for membership having rejected it a few years earlier.
  • Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.
    ...

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.

    The ’67 devaluation followed reckless Tory mismanagement in the early part of the decade. Likewise, Britain was broke in 1976 following a Tory spending spree. Ted Heath, who oversaw that spending spree, also thought little about the consequences for poorer communities of joining the EEC, just as Margaret Thatcher lazily left the fate of steelworkers and coalminers to the vagaries of the job market. Deregulation of the City sucked more money into London at the expense of the regions. Lastly, the Tories delayed and delayed a decision on ERM membership until crashing out was inevitable.

    Across the Channel, each of these developments was handled very differently. Which is not to say that France and Germany have all the answers. It’s just that the divergence with our neighbours over the need to plan is stark.'

    And yet, we're now about 160% richer than in 1959. So, the view that everything will turn out okay is not unreasonable.
    Joining the ERM met nearly total approval accross all parties.

    "Britain joined at a rate of 2.95 Deutsche Marks to the Pound, and within the broader 6% range of the ERM, rather than the 2.5% range, to give added flexibility. The decision was supported by the Labour Party, which said it had taken too long to reach; the Liberal Democrats said the same, and the CBI and the TUC" https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lecture/transcript/print/leaving-the-erm-1992/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,026
    edited February 3
    I can't deal with an article like this on a Sunday afternoon ! Looks thorough, though.

    FPT:
    brendan16 said:

    MattW said:

    On the subject of people in Nazi Uniforms, just caught up with this rather wonderful Twitter exchange from 2018:





    Surely Yasmin Alibhai Brown didn't fall for that - I presume she never watched Allo Allo.

    A very funny comedy - which like so many - is rarely repeated any more on terrestrial television as it might offend the snowflakes as it would be seen as homophobic, sexist and racist against the English, French, Italians and Germans. The only characters who got a positive rap were the Communist resistance - aka the Corbynites.

    It was always amazing how Rene managed to have all those young French women at his feet - but clearly like Boris he had something that attracted them?
    On the young women at his feet, you will have to ask @SeanT. Something to do with wealth (food in wartime?), perhaps?

    It appears that Yasmin Alibhai-Brown DID fall for it. As far as I can tell the account is genuine. 27k followers

    https://twitter.com/y_alibhai/

    Referenced in other media, eg:

    https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/nazi-uniforms-gloucester-allo-allo-1955653

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/michael-fabricant-apologises-after-saying-he-might-punch-female-columnist-in-the-throat-9551341.html

    The spoof is here:
    https://twitter.com/brownalibhai?lang=en
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 13,780

    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.

    It’s a phlegmatic approach to life that means Britain could just as easily fudge the outcome of Brexit, condemning the nation to years of hopeless anger from those who would rather our politicians had plotted a course based on rigorous research and open discussion.

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.



    Across the Channel, each of these developments was handled very differently. Which is not to say that France and Germany have all the answers. It’s just that the divergence with our neighbours over the need to plan is stark.'

    Long term central planning is communism.

    Free markets are capitalism.

    Which model is better for indiviual freedom?

    Which model is better for the consumer?

    'the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC)'
    No it wasn't; it had been discussed for ages, and but for De Gaulle's persistent 'Non' we'd have been in years earlier.
    I seem to remember, as a young delegate to a pharmaceutical conference in 1968 or so, saying at the rostrum, to applause from the floor and commendation from the platform, that De Gaulle would not last for ever, and that pharmacy would do a lot better when we joined the Common Market.
    I was right, of course about the first, but not about the second.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,548

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177
    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,548

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    You surely can't expect aspiring remain voting people's vote supporting middle class Londoners to remove the stone from the avocado, mash the avocado and mix the paste with chilli flakes, black pepper and sea salt, prepare the toast and then spread the avocado paste on the toast themselves?

    That is the sort of demeaning low paid work British people just aren't prepared to do anymore!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 13,780


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
    Early sixties I think.

    Possibly the best return for picking up the tab in history!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 12,437

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 25,229

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.

    You think we'd have invested it wisely in a fund?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 13,780


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
    Early sixties I think.

    Possibly the best return for picking up the tab in history!
    Wilson's first government, then!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177
    edited February 3


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
    Early sixties I think.

    Possibly the best return for picking up the tab in history!
    Wilson's first government, then!
    Possibly SuperMac/Home.

    By the mid-60s, BP had a pretty shrewd idea of where the big North Sea deposits were going to be found.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 35,713


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
    Early sixties I think.

    Possibly the best return for picking up the tab in history!
    It's hard to imagine how the border could be moved any further west, it looks almost equidistant from the UK and Norway. Unless it was moved afterwards?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 13,780


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
    Early sixties I think.

    Possibly the best return for picking up the tab in history!
    Wilson's first government, then!
    Possibly SuperMac/Home.

    By the mid-60s, BP had a pretty shrewd idea of where the big North Sea deposits were going to be found.
    Wilson elected '64, so see what you mean.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 21,964


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    I heard the same story about Norway and Denmark!
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Nissan is not switching its investment to the EU but avoiding further investment by exporting from it's home factory in Japan to EU markets.

    This is because of the free trade deal between the EU and Japan which means Japanese car exports to the EU will no longer face a prohibitive tariff.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,412

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.
    Following the tarde deal between Japan and the EU, Japan will no longer have prohibitive tariffs on the export of cars to the EU. So there is no longer a need to assemble cars in the EU rather than export thme from the home factory in Japan.
    I don't think that's a major factor, compared to generally weak European economies and diesel demand.

    Simply car companies don't tend to ship low or mid range cars half way around the world, because of time and cost. The US has only 2.5% tarrifs on passenger cars. But all the low end Mercedes, BMW and VWs are made in the US.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 24,925
    MattW said:

    I can't deal with an article like this on a Sunday afternoon ! Looks thorough, though.

    FPT:

    brendan16 said:

    MattW said:

    On the subject of people in Nazi Uniforms, just caught up with this rather wonderful Twitter exchange from 2018:





    Surely Yasmin Alibhai Brown didn't fall for that - I presume she never watched Allo Allo.

    A very funny comedy - which like so many - is rarely repeated any more on terrestrial television as it might offend the snowflakes as it would be seen as homophobic, sexist and racist against the English, French, Italians and Germans. The only characters who got a positive rap were the Communist resistance - aka the Corbynites.

    It was always amazing how Rene managed to have all those young French women at his feet - but clearly like Boris he had something that attracted them?
    On the young women at his feet, you will have to ask @SeanT. Something to do with wealth (food in wartime?), perhaps?

    It appears that Yasmin Alibhai-Brown DID fall for it. As far as I can tell the account is genuine. 27k followers

    https://twitter.com/y_alibhai/

    Referenced in other media, eg:

    https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/nazi-uniforms-gloucester-allo-allo-1955653

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/michael-fabricant-apologises-after-saying-he-might-punch-female-columnist-in-the-throat-9551341.html

    The spoof is here:
    https://twitter.com/brownalibhai?lang=en
    There was a wonderful play from the late eighties about German investors turning up at a hotel in South Wales at the same time as the local rugby club were having a fancy dress party with WWII as the theme. It went about as well as you would expect.

    For the life of me, I can't remember the name of it.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,189
    edited February 3

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
    There are only around 50 authenticated Caravaggios in existence. Most of them are in Italy. There are three in the National Gallery, and three in the Louvre, but I'm pretty sure the total number of his paintings located in in Hull and Preston is 0.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,037
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.
    Following the tarde deal between Japan and the EU, Japan will no longer have prohibitive tariffs on the export of cars to the EU. So there is no longer a need to assemble cars in the EU rather than export thme from the home factory in Japan.
    I don't think that's a major factor, compared to generally weak European economies and diesel demand.

    Simply car companies don't tend to ship low or mid range cars half way around the world, because of time and cost. The US has only 2.5% tarrifs on passenger cars. But all the low end Mercedes, BMW and VWs are made in the US.
    Indeed. If it made sense to manufacture the X-trail in Europe then that is what would happen. The reason it isn't going to be is because it's not very popular, the existing diesel manufacturing in Europe isn't going to be useful for it. The cost of making an all new petrol engine and powetrain in Europe (anywhere in Europe, UK or EU) vs the potential sales will result in an incredibly poor RoI without the looming threat of new anti-pollution regulations needing further modification and investment in a potential petrol engine manufacturing process.

    If the government has even half a brain cell then they will push for investment into EVs and battery manufacturing for hybrids and EVs. We'll see how JLR invest in it, but if it goes well the UK could become a viable EV manufacturing nation as quite a lot of supply chain will be domestic.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,412
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.
    Following the tarde deal between Japan and the EU, Japan will no longer have prohibitive tariffs on the export of cars to the EU. So there is no longer a need to assemble cars in the EU rather than export thme from the home factory in Japan.
    I don't think that's a major factor, compared to generally weak European economies and diesel demand.

    Simply car companies don't tend to ship low or mid range cars half way around the world, because of time and cost. The US has only 2.5% tarrifs on passenger cars. But all the low end Mercedes, BMW and VWs are made in the US.
    Indeed. If it made sense to manufacture the X-trail in Europe then that is what would happen. The reason it isn't going to be is because it's not very popular, the existing diesel manufacturing in Europe isn't going to be useful for it. The cost of making an all new petrol engine and powetrain in Europe (anywhere in Europe, UK or EU) vs the potential sales will result in an incredibly poor RoI without the looming threat of new anti-pollution regulations needing further modification and investment in a potential petrol engine manufacturing process.

    If the government has even half a brain cell then they will push for investment into EVs and battery manufacturing for hybrids and EVs. We'll see how JLR invest in it, but if it goes well the UK could become a viable EV manufacturing nation as quite a lot of supply chain will be domestic.
    I saw my first ever E Pace on the road on Friday. And very smart it looked too.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,412


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
    Early sixties I think.

    Possibly the best return for picking up the tab in history!
    Wilson's first government, then!
    Possibly SuperMac/Home.

    By the mid-60s, BP had a pretty shrewd idea of where the big North Sea deposits were going to be found.
    Yet it was an American oil firm that first found oil in the North Sea ,and after a lot of dry holes were drilled
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,803

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Others appear to be saying the investment has not gone to the EU either.

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,189

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
    There are only around 50 authenticated Caravaggios in existence. Most of them are in Italy. There are three in the National Gallery, and three in the Louvre, but I'm pretty sure the total number of his paintings located in in Hull and Preston is 0.
    By the way, the references to Sunderland and Nissan in that article (from December 2016) are not ageing particularly well.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 42,387

    By the way, the references to Sunderland and Nissan in that article (from December 2016) are not ageing particularly well.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177
    Charles said:


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    I heard the same story about Norway and Denmark!
    Well, it having worked once....!
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,280

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
    There are only around 50 authenticated Caravaggios in existence. Most of them are in Italy. There are three in the National Gallery, and three in the Louvre, but I'm pretty sure the total number of his paintings located in in Hull and Preston is 0.
    The quote has predictably enough been garbled by the Guardian.

    The North-sneering, London-based art critic was reviewing the National Gallery exhibition “Beyond Caravaggio” which ran from Oct 2016 to Jan 2017.

    The paintings in question are Nicolas Régnier’s ‘Saint Sebastian tended by the Holy Irene and her Servant’ in the collection of the Ferens Art Gallery, Hull Museums and Georges de la Tour’s ‘Dice Players’ from Preston Park Museum & Grounds in Stockton-on-Tees. They are baroque followers of Caravaggio.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,412
    Floater said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Others appear to be saying the investment has not gone to the EU either.

    I think we all try to create simple explanations for complex problems. The following are all likely to be factors :

    Diesel demand, given petrol engines for the model are made in Japan.
    Weak European economies
    Falling demand for Ice vehicles worldwide relative to hybrid and electric
    The risk of No Deal Brexit
    The departure of Carlos Ghosn
    The EU-Japan Fta

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 12,437

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
    There are only around 50 authenticated Caravaggios in existence. Most of them are in Italy. There are three in the National Gallery, and three in the Louvre, but I'm pretty sure the total number of his paintings located in in Hull and Preston is 0.
    What it refers to are paintings donated to a Caravaggio exhibition rather than actual Caravaggios.

    ' High marks to the National Gallery for finding so many Caravaggesque examples scattered about Britain’s lesser-known collections. Their presence adds weight to the show’s argument, and a few of them are real finds. From the Ferens Art Gallery, in Hull, comes a beautiful St Sebastian, slumped on a scarlet cloth with St Irene tenderly pulling out his arrows, painted by Nicolas Regnier, an artist we need to hear more about. '

    http://www.waldemar.tv/2016/11/waldemar-januszczak-on-art-caravaggio-saw-things-in-a-new-light/

    With the actual Hull painting shown here:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-excess-and-vulgarity-is-what-the-modern-world-likes-about-caravaggio-m3n0x5stn

    and the Preston painting:

    https://www.apollo-magazine.com/frieze-week-highlights-stepping-out-of-caravaggios-shadow/
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 1,911

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Nissan is not switching its investment to the EU but avoiding further investment by exporting from it's home factory in Japan to EU markets.

    This is because of the free trade deal between the EU and Japan which means Japanese car exports to the EU will no longer face a prohibitive tariff.

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.
  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 458
    Mr P, Nissan is not scaling back its (current) operation.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177
    RobD said:


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    And we think our negotiators can be trusted to look after our interests! Would that have been in the late 60's?
    Early sixties I think.

    Possibly the best return for picking up the tab in history!
    It's hard to imagine how the border could be moved any further west, it looks almost equidistant from the UK and Norway. Unless it was moved afterwards?
    I'm not saying our opening position was fair! It might have been a throwback to imperial, Britannia Rules The Waves, we'll-take-what-we-jolly-well-want gunboat diplomacy.....
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,189
    edited February 3

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
    There are only around 50 authenticated Caravaggios in existence. Most of them are in Italy. There are three in the National Gallery, and three in the Louvre, but I'm pretty sure the total number of his paintings located in in Hull and Preston is 0.
    The quote has predictably enough been garbled by the Guardian.

    The North-sneering, London-based art critic was reviewing the National Gallery exhibition “Beyond Caravaggio” which ran from Oct 2016 to Jan 2017.

    The paintings in question are Nicolas Régnier’s ‘Saint Sebastian tended by the Holy Irene and her Servant’ in the collection of the Ferens Art Gallery, Hull Museums and Georges de la Tour’s ‘Dice Players’ from Preston Park Museum & Grounds in Stockton-on-Tees. They are baroque followers of Caravaggio.
    Thank you. Alle ist klar. A cetain irony in the journalist parading her empathy with the north credentials thinking that Preston Park is in Preston!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,412
    edited February 3
    rcs1000 said:



    I think we all try to create simple explanations for complex problems. The following are all likely to be factors :

    Diesel demand, given petrol engines for the model are made in Japan.
    Weak European economies
    Falling demand for Ice vehicles worldwide relative to hybrid and electric
    The risk of No Deal Brexit
    The departure of Carlos Ghosn
    The EU-Japan Fta

    Oh yes, and the release of a number of well received, cheap compact SUVs in the last six months has probably changed what Nissan thinks it will achieve in revenues on a per unit basis
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,548
    edited February 3
    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Others appear to be saying the investment has not gone to the EU either.

    I think we all try to create simple explanations for complex problems. The following are all likely to be factors :

    Diesel demand, given petrol engines for the model are made in Japan.
    Weak European economies
    Falling demand for Ice vehicles worldwide relative to hybrid and electric
    The risk of No Deal Brexit
    The departure of Carlos Ghosn
    The EU-Japan Fta

    No - Brexit is responsible for anything and everything bad and any good things happening are down to other factors. It has no boundaries and no limits.

    Firms never closed down, scaled back operations, decided not to expand, or made job losses before 23 June 2016 did they?!

    Its going to be the fallguy for all management failures and hard nosed commercial decisions for the next few months.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,189
    Another Richard.

    As YbarrdCwsc points out it's a seriously shoddy piece of journalism. I'd suggest you delete it from your file.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,037
    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Others appear to be saying the investment has not gone to the EU either.

    I think we all try to create simple explanations for complex problems. The following are all likely to be factors :

    Diesel demand, given petrol engines for the model are made in Japan.
    Weak European economies
    Falling demand for Ice vehicles worldwide relative to hybrid and electric
    The risk of No Deal Brexit
    The departure of Carlos Ghosn
    The EU-Japan Fta

    I think the Carlos Ghosn point is overlooked by many, it does feel as if Japan is reasserting itself over the company. I think it probably hurts the French more than anyone else though, I can see a situation where the alliance is dissolved and Renault are bought out by the some Japanese government fund.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 47,605
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 10,978
    Distinct lack of self awareness Methinks

    Liberal Democrats

    Verified account

    @LibDems
    Follow Follow @LibDems
    More
    Between 2014 and 2016 alone, over 3000 people were dragged before the court for being homeless, under the Vagrancy Act.

    That is shameful. Britain is better than this. Demand that the cruel and outdated Vagrancy Act is repealed
  • OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Nissan is not switching its investment to the EU but avoiding further investment by exporting from it's home factory in Japan to EU markets.

    This is because of the free trade deal between the EU and Japan which means Japanese car exports to the EU will no longer face a prohibitive tariff.

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.
    Indeed. Those of us of a certain vintage will recall how it used to be our Unions, Strikes, Lazy Workforce, High Taxes and Overgenerous Welfare System that were responsible for international companies declining to invest here.

    Brexit's turn now.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    edited February 3
    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 42,387

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    Anything rotting in the fields, or the streets...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,037

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    Apples, specifically Bramley apples.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 24,925
    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Nissan is not switching its investment to the EU but avoiding further investment by exporting from it's home factory in Japan to EU markets.

    This is because of the free trade deal between the EU and Japan which means Japanese car exports to the EU will no longer face a prohibitive tariff.

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.
    There is no sign that the main EU economies are currently outperforming the UK.

    Job Losses attract more publicity than job gains, but the latter outweigh the former.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,189
    MaxPB said:

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    Apples, specifically Bramley apples.
    Sour tasting. Only any use in a crumble?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 47,605
    Mr. Meeks, you comment reminds me of when Gompertz[sp] was wibbling about whether anybody would bother going to Hull to see an art gallery, or some southern clown a few weeks ago who was saying HS2 would go 'as far north as Leeds'. One shudders to think what the journalist would've made of Newcastle, let alone Scotland.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 21,964

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
    There are only around 50 authenticated Caravaggios in existence. Most of them are in Italy. There are three in the National Gallery, and three in the Louvre, but I'm pretty sure the total number of his paintings located in in Hull and Preston is 0.
    I can’t speak about Caravaggios specifically but it really really pisses me off when people dismiss our regional art collections

    Fred Hohler’s pioneering obsession with the Public Art Catalogue really opened my eyes to this. In fact it’s the entire purpose of the Winter Exhibition Programme we host every year at Two Temple Place

    For example:

    Blackburn has a better collection of Roman Coins than the British Museum

    Macclesfield has the second best collection of Egyptian antiquities in the country

    Sheffield is the place to go for Ruskin fans; for the Newland School you should head to Truro and the RCM

    Closer to London you could go to Walthamstow for William Morris or Sussex for Bloomsberry, Lee Miller and Man Ray
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,941

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    turnips

    obviously
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 20,607

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Interesting article from yesterday's Guardian by Phillip Inman-
    'A no-deal Brexit is just another cataclysmic event among many in Britain’s recent history. That’s why there is a good chance it’s going to happen.

    The economy, unfortunately, has usually taken second place over the last 60 years to pride, party loyalty or – and this must be the most significant driving force – a trusting sense that no matter how bad things look everything will turn out OK.

    It’s a phlegmatic approach to life that means Britain could just as easily fudge the outcome of Brexit, condemning the nation to years of hopeless anger from those who would rather our politicians had plotted a course based on rigorous research and open discussion.

    Think of the much-delayed devaluation of the pound in 1967 and the decision, almost overnight, to join the European Economic Community (EEC). Next came the humiliating capitulation in 1976 to the demands of the International Monetary Fund following a long and desperate search for vital loans; the closure within a few of years of the UK’s coal and steel industries, putting more than one million people out of work; 1986’s Big Bang deregulation of the City; and the humiliating crash out of the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992.

    What planning was made for these epoch-defining moments and the effects they might have on the country and its people? Very little.

    There is an obvious thread running through this list of events, and that is the mess, at every turn, the Tory party has gifted the nation from its time in office.

    SNIP

    Long term central planning is communism.

    Free markets are capitalism.

    Which model is better for indiviual freedom?

    Which model is better for the consumer?

    Maybe a Scandinavian model.
    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.
    However if you are Scotland and it all gets stolen by your larger partner it does not really help either. Westminster could never have a decent model.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    Mr. Meeks, you comment reminds me of when Gompertz[sp] was wibbling about whether anybody would bother going to Hull to see an art gallery, or some southern clown a few weeks ago who was saying HS2 would go 'as far north as Leeds'. One shudders to think what the journalist would've made of Newcastle, let alone Scotland.

    Come to sunny Preston laughed the girl in the Guardian.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 21,964

    Charles said:


    As yes, the Norway model.

    Have a small population and discover vast quantities of oil and gas offshore.

    I never tire of telling the story of the lengthy border negotiations between the UK and Norway, to define the boundary between the two countries. Assumed a fairly esoteric exercise, there were occasional meetings over a period of years. One day, after the Norwegians had treated our team to a slap up lunch, we caved in and accepted their proposal.

    The section we had agreed to give away included huge hydrocarbon deposits in the Statfjord, Gullfacks, Sleipner and Frigg fields. If we had held the line in those talks, Norway's oil fund of around a trillion dollars would have been significantly the UK's.
    I heard the same story about Norway and Denmark!
    Well, it having worked once....!
    This one was worse - they got the Foreign Minister drunk and he didn’t realised they’d moved the lines on the signature copy of the map
  • Charles said:

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    So many options - and so little time to sort them out. Now only 54 days left to Brexit.

    Still at least its reassuring to know the Queen will be relocated to a safe leave voting area if the remainers in London start kicking off and march on Buckingham palace.

    Or alternatively we could just let the Duke of Edinburgh clear the mob with his land rover. Let them eat avocado toast - before Waitrose run out of the stuff on 30 March in their London stores due to panic buying.

    Our Waitrose avocados come from Israel and Peru not the EU.
    Hugely comforting news for Remainers: we have home-grown quinoa -

    https://www.britishquinoa.co.uk/
    Quite a limited range of stockists - if you want quinoa on tap post Brexit seems like you need to move to Shropshire as there are more there than in the rest of the UK combined.
    Travel outside the M25? Good lord no. The butler can go and fetch it, fresh every week.
    ' It is the same snobbery that caused an eminent art critic to recently opine on Radio 4 that he hadn’t seen a few Caravaggios being shown off in a London exhibition – because they had been “hidden away in places like Hull and Preston”. They might as well have been on the moon, though he would no doubt have seen them had they been hung in Florence or Paris. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/09/northerners-voting-brexit-north-south
    Tn in Hull and Preston is 0.
    I can’t speak about Caravaggios specifically but it really really pisses me off when people dismiss our regional art collections

    Fred Hohler’s pioneering obsession with the Public Art Catalogue really opened my eyes to this. In fact it’s the entire purpose of the Winter Exhibition Programme we host every year at Two Temple Place

    For example:

    Blackburn has a better collection of Roman Coins than the British Museum

    Macclesfield has the second best collection of Egyptian antiquities in the country

    Sheffield is the place to go for Ruskin fans; for the Newland School you should head to Truro and the RCM

    Closer to London you could go to Walthamstow for William Morris or Sussex for Bloomsberry, Lee Miller and Man Ray
    I can personally recommend the William Morris museum in Walthamstow.

    I can also recall how astonished I was to find an outstanding Dali museum in St Petersburg, Florida. Well worth a visit if you are ever in the Sunshine State.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,412
    Sean_F said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    All the media reporting still refers to a “new” model:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561
    And sometime as next generation.

    Presumably their calculation is that the UK domestic market is large enough to take a punt on the Quashcow for now, but models that have to be exported to justify the costs simply aren’t worth bothering with.

    I think the issue is diesel engines losing a lot of popularity over the last couple of years because of VW. They have a state of the art petrol manufacturing site in Japan, it isn't cost effective to ship those here to make a car that no one buys and it isn't cost effective to manufacture the engines here because no one knows what the regulatory situation is going to be wrt petrol engines in the next 5-10 years.

    That they are currently still going to keep Qashqai manufacturing here is a win, but even that depends on what view the government takes on emissions and how much help will be available for EVs and battery manufacturing. Ideally the government bets big on EVs and introduces huge tax breaks for investment in EV manufacturing under the guise of environmental protection.

    Big business is beginning to show its power in any negotiation with the Government. Nissan has no loyalty to the UK but will wait to see what it is offered. The Government has to accept it is open season for the rest of the EC to try and switch investment away from the UK and be prepared to give away large sums. I predicted this some time ago and see no reason to change my view.

    The people who will lose most are pensioners which is only fair as it is their Brexit. This will come mostly through the exchange rate and house prices but further austerity is also on the cards.

    Nissan is not switching its investment to the EU but avoiding further investment by exporting from it's home factory in Japan to EU markets.

    This is because of the free trade deal between the EU and Japan which means Japanese car exports to the EU will no longer face a prohibitive tariff.

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.
    There is no sign that the main EU economies are currently outperforming the UK.

    Job Losses attract more publicity than job gains, but the latter outweigh the former.
    I think Spain is still outgrowing the UK
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 2,554
    OllyT said:

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.

    Brexit is only at any serious risk of taking the blame amongst a broad majority of the electorate if (a) we lapse from modest economic growth into recession AND (b) there is substantial divergence in economic performance between the UK and the average for the Eurozone.

    Absent this combination of circumstances, any bad news stories will be blamed on Brexit by convinced Remainers, ascribed to other factors by convinced Leavers, and largely ignored by the unaffected bulk of the population.

    The reputation of pro-EU politicians, business lobby groups, the Bank of England and all the rest of them for economic forecasting was shredded firstly by the inability of almost any of them to see the Great Recession coming, and then by the failure of nearly all the horrors predicted to come to pass in the immediate aftermath of the Leave vote to happen. As we all know, about the only thing they got right was the fall in the value of Sterling - and even in that case the IMF had been issuing advice well before the referendum to the effect that the Pound was overvalued. The Brexit vote can therefore all-too-easily be written off as the trigger for the correction to take place, but not the underlying cause.

    It's going to take an awful lot to convince Leave-leaning voters - who heard all of this doom and gloom three years ago, ignored it and will feel that they were vindicated by subsequent events - to blame anything that may or may not go wrong on the act of leaving the EU.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,941

    Mr. Meeks, you comment reminds me of when Gompertz[sp] was wibbling about whether anybody would bother going to Hull to see an art gallery, or some southern clown a few weeks ago who was saying HS2 would go 'as far north as Leeds'. One shudders to think what the journalist would've made of Newcastle, let alone Scotland.

    Come to sunny Preston laughed the girl in the Guardian.
    its just gone off since it used to be the Manchester Guardian
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    OllyT said:

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.

    Brexit is only at any serious risk of taking the blame amongst a broad majority of the electorate if (a) we lapse from modest economic growth into recession AND (b) there is substantial divergence in economic performance between the UK and the average for the Eurozone.

    Absent this combination of circumstances, any bad news stories will be blamed on Brexit by convinced Remainers, ascribed to other factors by convinced Leavers, and largely ignored by the unaffected bulk of the population.

    The reputation of pro-EU politicians, business lobby groups, the Bank of England and all the rest of them for economic forecasting was shredded firstly by the inability of almost any of them to see the Great Recession coming, and then by the failure of nearly all the horrors predicted to come to pass in the immediate aftermath of the Leave vote to happen. As we all know, about the only thing they got right was the fall in the value of Sterling - and even in that case the IMF had been issuing advice well before the referendum to the effect that the Pound was overvalued. The Brexit vote can therefore all-too-easily be written off as the trigger for the correction to take place, but not the underlying cause.

    It's going to take an awful lot to convince Leave-leaning voters - who heard all of this doom and gloom three years ago, ignored it and will feel that they were vindicated by subsequent events - to blame anything that may or may not go wrong on the act of leaving the EU.
    Leave-leaning voters are already in a minority.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 21,964

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    Nomination

    https://goo.gl/images/59oi6q
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,280

    Mr. Meeks, you comment reminds me of when Gompertz[sp] was wibbling about whether anybody would bother going to Hull to see an art gallery, or some southern clown a few weeks ago who was saying HS2 would go 'as far north as Leeds'. One shudders to think what the journalist would've made of Newcastle, let alone Scotland.

    Come to sunny Preston laughed the girl in the Guardian.
    The girl in the Guardian (Helen Pidd) is not all bad.

    She writes movingly about how she shared her house with an asylum seeker

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/09/my-syrian-refugee-lodger-helen-pidd

    I’ve a lot of time for Helen Pidd (though she is no art historian).

    She didn’t just talk about it, you see.
  • OllyT said:

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.

    Brexit is only at any serious risk of taking the blame amongst a broad majority of the electorate if (a) we lapse from modest economic growth into recession AND (b) there is substantial divergence in economic performance between the UK and the average for the Eurozone.

    Absent this combination of circumstances, any bad news stories will be blamed on Brexit by convinced Remainers, ascribed to other factors by convinced Leavers, and largely ignored by the unaffected bulk of the population.

    The reputation of pro-EU politicians, business lobby groups, the Bank of England and all the rest of them for economic forecasting was shredded firstly by the inability of almost any of them to see the Great Recession coming, and then by the failure of nearly all the horrors predicted to come to pass in the immediate aftermath of the Leave vote to happen. As we all know, about the only thing they got right was the fall in the value of Sterling - and even in that case the IMF had been issuing advice well before the referendum to the effect that the Pound was overvalued. The Brexit vote can therefore all-too-easily be written off as the trigger for the correction to take place, but not the underlying cause.

    It's going to take an awful lot to convince Leave-leaning voters - who heard all of this doom and gloom three years ago, ignored it and will feel that they were vindicated by subsequent events - to blame anything that may or may not go wrong on the act of leaving the EU.
    Didn't they get the downgrading of our Credit Rating correct?

    Hasn't been jacked back up recently, has it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,284

    Mr. Meeks, you comment reminds me of when Gompertz[sp] was wibbling about whether anybody would bother going to Hull to see an art gallery, or some southern clown a few weeks ago who was saying HS2 would go 'as far north as Leeds'. One shudders to think what the journalist would've made of Newcastle, let alone Scotland.

    Gompertz isn't my favourite culture guy, but tbf he did attend the opening of V&A Dundee and is a pretty regular reviewer of Edinburgh Festival art related stuff & Glasgow's disproportionate success in the Turner prize. I accept that he may not be totally au fait with the cultural scenes of Kirkcaldy or Kilmarnock though (nor am I).
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,189
    edited February 3
    Charles. I agree that there are some wonderful provincial art galleries (Birmingham and Manchester have outstanding collections of pre-Raphaelite art, for example), but it's ridiculous to posit them against the London galleries, or the great galleries of Europe, as if their worth - superiority even - is hidden and unknown simply because London-centric Art critics refuse to acknowledge them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 21,964

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    It’s not really my thing, but you could do worse than the Zurbarán collection in Bishop Auckland

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Zurbarán
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177
    I think we are going to have to face facts - ManU are never, ever going to lose again under Solskjaer......
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 24,925

    OllyT said:

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.

    Brexit is only at any serious risk of taking the blame amongst a broad majority of the electorate if (a) we lapse from modest economic growth into recession AND (b) there is substantial divergence in economic performance between the UK and the average for the Eurozone.

    Absent this combination of circumstances, any bad news stories will be blamed on Brexit by convinced Remainers, ascribed to other factors by convinced Leavers, and largely ignored by the unaffected bulk of the population.

    The reputation of pro-EU politicians, business lobby groups, the Bank of England and all the rest of them for economic forecasting was shredded firstly by the inability of almost any of them to see the Great Recession coming, and then by the failure of nearly all the horrors predicted to come to pass in the immediate aftermath of the Leave vote to happen. As we all know, about the only thing they got right was the fall in the value of Sterling - and even in that case the IMF had been issuing advice well before the referendum to the effect that the Pound was overvalued. The Brexit vote can therefore all-too-easily be written off as the trigger for the correction to take place, but not the underlying cause.

    It's going to take an awful lot to convince Leave-leaning voters - who heard all of this doom and gloom three years ago, ignored it and will feel that they were vindicated by subsequent events - to blame anything that may or may not go wrong on the act of leaving the EU.
    Didn't they get the downgrading of our Credit Rating correct?

    Hasn't been jacked back up recently, has it?
    They did.

    OTOH, estimates for GDP, employment , public borrowing , wages, house prices were......not so good.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,941
    Sean_F said:

    OllyT said:

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.

    Brexit is only at any serious risk of taking the blame amongst a broad majority of the electorate if (a) we lapse from modest economic growth into recession AND (b) there is substantial divergence in economic performance between the UK and the average for the Eurozone.

    Absent this combination of circumstances, any bad news stories will be blamed on Brexit by convinced Remainers, ascribed to other factors by convinced Leavers, and largely ignored by the unaffected bulk of the population.

    The reputation of pro-EU politicians, business lobby groups, the Bank of England and all the rest of them for economic forecasting was shredded firstly by the inability of almost any of them to see the Great Recession coming, and then by the failure of nearly all the horrors predicted to come to pass in the immediate aftermath of the Leave vote to happen. As we all know, about the only thing they got right was the fall in the value of Sterling - and even in that case the IMF had been issuing advice well before the referendum to the effect that the Pound was overvalued. The Brexit vote can therefore all-too-easily be written off as the trigger for the correction to take place, but not the underlying cause.

    It's going to take an awful lot to convince Leave-leaning voters - who heard all of this doom and gloom three years ago, ignored it and will feel that they were vindicated by subsequent events - to blame anything that may or may not go wrong on the act of leaving the EU.
    Didn't they get the downgrading of our Credit Rating correct?

    Hasn't been jacked back up recently, has it?
    They did.

    OTOH, estimates for GDP, employment , public borrowing , wages, house prices were......not so good.
    oh there you go confusing the argument with facts
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177
    edited February 3

    OllyT said:

    How many people believed factually incorrect stories about the EU?

    Boot is firmly on the other foot now - every bad bit of economic news over the next 5 years will be because of Brexit. You reap what you sow.

    Brexit is only at any serious risk of taking the blame amongst a broad majority of the electorate if (a) we lapse from modest economic growth into recession AND (b) there is substantial divergence in economic performance between the UK and the average for the Eurozone.

    Absent this combination of circumstances, any bad news stories will be blamed on Brexit by convinced Remainers, ascribed to other factors by convinced Leavers, and largely ignored by the unaffected bulk of the population.

    The reputation of pro-EU politicians, business lobby groups, the Bank of England and all the rest of them for economic forecasting was shredded firstly by the inability of almost any of them to see the Great Recession coming, and then by the failure of nearly all the horrors predicted to come to pass in the immediate aftermath of the Leave vote to happen. As we all know, about the only thing they got right was the fall in the value of Sterling - and even in that case the IMF had been issuing advice well before the referendum to the effect that the Pound was overvalued. The Brexit vote can therefore all-too-easily be written off as the trigger for the correction to take place, but not the underlying cause.

    It's going to take an awful lot to convince Leave-leaning voters - who heard all of this doom and gloom three years ago, ignored it and will feel that they were vindicated by subsequent events - to blame anything that may or may not go wrong on the act of leaving the EU.
    Didn't they get the downgrading of our Credit Rating correct?

    Hasn't been jacked back up recently, has it?
    I'm sure there must be technical costs arising from having our credit rating downgraded, but it does not seem to have held our economy back....
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,189

    I think we are going to have to face facts - ManU are never, ever going to lose again under Solskjaer......

    Score early. Park the bus. Are you Mourinho in disguise?
  • Charles said:

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    It’s not really my thing, but you could do worse than the Zurbarán collection in Bishop Auckland

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Zurbarán
    Wow! Zubaran is smoking hot.

    If anything could lure me north of Watford.....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 21,964

    Mr. Meeks, you comment reminds me of when Gompertz[sp] was wibbling about whether anybody would bother going to Hull to see an art gallery, or some southern clown a few weeks ago who was saying HS2 would go 'as far north as Leeds'. One shudders to think what the journalist would've made of Newcastle, let alone Scotland.

    Come to sunny Preston laughed the girl in the Guardian.
    The girl in the Guardian (Helen Pidd) is not all bad.

    She writes movingly about how she shared her house with an asylum seeker

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/09/my-syrian-refugee-lodger-helen-pidd

    I’ve a lot of time for Helen Pidd (though she is no art historian).

    She didn’t just talk about it, you see.
    True - although they were introduced by a mutual friend and she had got to know him before taking him in as a lodger so it’s not what most people think of as “letting a refugee stay in my house” even though that is strictly speaking accurate
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 21,964

    Charles. I agree that there are some wonderful provincial art galleries (Birmingham and Manchester have outstanding collections of pre-Raphaelite art, for example), but it's ridiculous to posit them against the London galleries, or the great galleries of Europe, as if their worth - superiority even - is hidden and unknown simply because London-centric Art critics refuse to acknowledge them.

    Clearly they are not of the same level as the great international galleries (although in some parts they are)

    You’d be surprised, though, how many people who should have been aware of these pieces aren’t
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,280
    edited February 3

    Charles. I agree that there are some wonderful provincial art galleries (Birmingham and Manchester have outstanding collections of pre-Raphaelite art, for example), but it's ridiculous to posit them against the London galleries, or the great galleries of Europe, as if their worth - superiority even - is hidden and unknown simply because London-centric Art critics refuse to acknowledge them.

    It is however worth pointing out that some of the London museums and art galleries have huge amounts of paintings and artefacts in storage that could easily be dispersed to the Midlands and North of England. (Not so much the National Gallery, but certainly the British Museum and the V&A.)

    It is also worth remembering how much of the stuff ended up in London in the first place. Why exactly is the Mold cape in London, as opposed to Mold or the National Museum of Wales, Cardiff?

    Tristram Hunt, when he took over in the V&A, said he would be happy to help locate historic furniture and artefacts of Gwydir Castle in Llanrwst, that had been sold or lost.

    He was not quite so helpful when it was pointed out to him that some of the artefacts from Gwydir Castle were located in the storage vaults of the, ... err, V&A.

    Where -- the helpfulness of Tristram notwithstanding -- they have remained.
  • Charles said:

    Mr. Meeks, you comment reminds me of when Gompertz[sp] was wibbling about whether anybody would bother going to Hull to see an art gallery, or some southern clown a few weeks ago who was saying HS2 would go 'as far north as Leeds'. One shudders to think what the journalist would've made of Newcastle, let alone Scotland.

    Come to sunny Preston laughed the girl in the Guardian.
    The girl in the Guardian (Helen Pidd) is not all bad.

    She writes movingly about how she shared her house with an asylum seeker

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/09/my-syrian-refugee-lodger-helen-pidd

    I’ve a lot of time for Helen Pidd (though she is no art historian).

    She didn’t just talk about it, you see.
    True - although they were introduced by a mutual friend and she had got to know him before taking him in as a lodger so it’s not what most people think of as “letting a refugee stay in my house” even though that is strictly speaking accurate
    Yes, I too have a friend who allowed a refugee to stay in her flat, and I have no intention of leaving any time soon.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 42,387

    If anything could lure me north of Watford.....

    You live North of Watford...
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 2,554

    Leave-leaning voters are already in a minority.

    Ah, the deatherendum argument again?

    You may or may not be right but, unless or until there's another vote on the EU, there's no reliable means to test this hypothesis. If the polls had any value in this respect then they'd have called the result of the first one right.

    Didn't they get the downgrading of our Credit Rating correct?

    Hasn't been jacked back up recently, has it?

    I'm sure there must be technical costs arising from having our credit rating downgraded, but it does not seem to have held our economy back....
    FWIW the ratings of the main agencies do seem somewhat eccentric. Ranking Germany above the UK is not a decision likely to look sensible if the Euro finally collapses (a seeming inevitability absent political union, which no-one of any real influence save possibly for the embattled Macron appears willing to contemplate.) Ranking both Germany and the UK above Japan is plain bonkers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,068

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    turnips

    obviously
    Turnips are a vegetable.

    The Leave fruit would be an apple, but an Irish Peach - comes around quickly, and about half of people say it tastes delicious when you pick it, but if you leave it even for a short time it goes off and causes a bad taste, being then useful for nothing and nobody.

    https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/apple-trees/irish-peach
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    Leave-leaning voters are already in a minority.

    Ah, the deatherendum argument again?

    You may or may not be right but, unless or until there's another vote on the EU, there's no reliable means to test this hypothesis. If the polls had any value in this respect then they'd have called the result of the first one right.

    Didn't they get the downgrading of our Credit Rating correct?

    Hasn't been jacked back up recently, has it?

    I'm sure there must be technical costs arising from having our credit rating downgraded, but it does not seem to have held our economy back....
    FWIW the ratings of the main agencies do seem somewhat eccentric. Ranking Germany above the UK is not a decision likely to look sensible if the Euro finally collapses (a seeming inevitability absent political union, which no-one of any real influence save possibly for the embattled Macron appears willing to contemplate.) Ranking both Germany and the UK above Japan is plain bonkers.
    When was the last poll to have Leave in the lead?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,941
    edited February 3
    ydoethur said:

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    turnips

    obviously
    Turnips are a vegetable.

    The Leave fruit would be an apple, but an Irish Peach - comes around quickly, and about half of people say it tastes delicious when you pick it, but if you leave it even for a short time it goes off and causes a bad taste, being then useful for nothing and nobody.

    https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/apple-trees/irish-peach
    you forget leavers dont eat anything fresh. A can of mushy peas is our dream.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,068
    edited February 3

    ydoethur said:

    If avocados are Remain fruit, which fruits are distinctively Leave?

    And it seems now as part of their penance for not supporting the Leave death cult, Remainers are obliged to tour northern English blots on the landscape to see third rate paintings rather than visit internationally famous art galleries in world-famous cultural destinations of unsurpassed beauty. Could we be issued with itineraries (tentatively to be named The Fourteen Stations Of The Wrong Cross)?

    turnips

    obviously
    Turnips are a vegetable.

    The Leave fruit would be an apple, but an Irish Peach - comes around quickly, and about half of people say it tastes delicious when you pick it, but if you leave it even for a short time it goes off and causes a bad taste, being then useful for nothing and nobody.

    https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/apple-trees/irish-peach
    you forget leavers dont eat anything fresh. A can of mushy peas is our dream.
    Peter Mandelson after the avocado mousse again?

    Edit - and peas are of course a vegetable as well. Further edit - although I see there is a dispute about that.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    On topic, Theresa May said that there would be another opportunity for Parliament to vote for an extension. The votes last week told us very little except that no one is yet ready to compromise.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,177

    Charles. I agree that there are some wonderful provincial art galleries (Birmingham and Manchester have outstanding collections of pre-Raphaelite art, for example), but it's ridiculous to posit them against the London galleries, or the great galleries of Europe, as if their worth - superiority even - is hidden and unknown simply because London-centric Art critics refuse to acknowledge them.

    It is however worth pointing out that some of the London museums and art galleries have huge amounts of paintings and artefacts in storage that could easily be dispersed to the Midlands and North of England. (Not so much the National Gallery, but certainly the British Museum and the V&A.)

    It is also worth remembering how much of the stuff ended up in London in the first place. Why exactly is the Mold cape in London, as opposed to Mold or the National Museum of Wales, Cardiff?

    Tristram Hunt, when he took over in the V&A, said he would be happy to help locate historic furniture and artefacts of Gwydir Castle in Llanrwst, that had been sold or lost.

    He was not quite so helpful when it was pointed out to him that some of the artefacts from Gwydir Castle were located in the storage vaults of the, ... err, V&A.

    Where -- the helpfulness of Tristram notwithstanding -- they have remained.
    Nicely put!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,068

    Leave-leaning voters are already in a minority.

    Ah, the deatherendum argument again?

    You may or may not be right but, unless or until there's another vote on the EU, there's no reliable means to test this hypothesis. If the polls had any value in this respect then they'd have called the result of the first one right.

    Didn't they get the downgrading of our Credit Rating correct?

    Hasn't been jacked back up recently, has it?

    I'm sure there must be technical costs arising from having our credit rating downgraded, but it does not seem to have held our economy back....
    FWIW the ratings of the main agencies do seem somewhat eccentric. Ranking Germany above the UK is not a decision likely to look sensible if the Euro finally collapses (a seeming inevitability absent political union, which no-one of any real influence save possibly for the embattled Macron appears willing to contemplate.) Ranking both Germany and the UK above Japan is plain bonkers.
    When was the last poll to have Leave in the lead?
    How many polls had Leave in the lead in the run up to the vote? That's the real question. Until Remain consistently has margins considerably greater (at least five points) than it had in the polls in 2016, it strikes me as dangerous to say views have changed.
This discussion has been closed.