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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tusk Tweets that suggest TMay is facing an uphill task

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited February 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tusk Tweets that suggest TMay is facing an uphill task

Today our most important task is to prevent a no deal #Brexit. I hope that tomorrow we will hear from PM @theresa_may a realistic suggestion on how to end the impasse. https://t.co/ko9UGhtaJd pic.twitter.com/Rm9fNXwyks

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Comments

  • Testify.
  • Doesn’t Tusk realise the UK holds all the cards?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 47,605
    Mr. Eagles, it'd be fascinating if we could see what a competent UK negotiation would've resulted in.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 1,961

    Doesn’t Tusk realise the UK holds all the cards?

    He's on the brink of capitulation. When he sobers up he'll offer to concede on the backstop.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 13,780
    FPT.

    SeanT said:
    » show previous quotes
    I'm actually in a very buoyant mood. New book's a killer, got some TV deals for Tremayne up and running. I have a suntan from Vietnam and I'm off to Nepal and then the desert state of the USA, for the Times, in a couple of weeks. And my wife is 23. Today is a day when I feel unjustifiably lucky.

    Hence my uncharacteristic niceness, all day, perhaps.

    What I AM doing is procrastinating horribly, to avoid a tedious edit (as I said below). PB is good for procrastinators like me.... and, ah, pensioners with nowt to do?

    I am determined to start work at 4, tho.

    4

    Yes, 4. Definitely.

    4


    ah, pensioners with nowt to do?
    I'm so busy these days I wonder I had the time to go to work.

    Actually that's not true. I've slowed down a bit lately. However I've spent the past couple of hours determining which Summer Sundays I'm prepared to devote to assisting with our local Museum.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,546
    edited February 6
    The Tusk tweet about a special place in hell for those who took us into this mess without a clue how to get us out speaks for most of us I would think.

    Form an orderly queue behind David Cameron
  • Roger said:

    The Tusk tweet about a special place in hell for those who took us into this mess without a clue how to get us out speaks for most of us I would think.

    Remainers yes
  • BromBrom Posts: 1,254
    Roger said:

    The Tusk tweet about a special place in hell for those who took us into this mess without a clue how to get us out speaks for most of us I would think.

    Most of 'us' as in people called 'Roger' I assume.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 13,780
    edited February 6

    Roger said:

    The Tusk tweet about a special place in hell for those who took us into this mess without a clue how to get us out speaks for most of us I would think.

    Remainers yes
    If by that you mean that Remainers are unsure about how to get the result of the Referendum reversed, set aside or whatever, then yes, there's a great deal of uncertainty!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 20,824
    Roger said:

    The Tusk tweet about a special place in hell for those who took us into this mess without a clue how to get us out speaks for most of us I would think.

    Start with Tony Blair, who reneged on the Lisbon referendum, go through David Cameron and finish with Olly Robbins, who negotiated a deal that couldn’t even be sold to Conservative MPs, let alone Parliament in general. Remainers, the lot of them.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610
    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?
  • Mr. Eagles, it'd be fascinating if we could see what a competent UK negotiation would've resulted in.

    Not even Harvey Specter could have obtained all the promises of Vote Leave.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited February 6
    Mike said: "When I want to cheer myself up I think that this could all be like the “Millenium bug” that so dominated the news ahead of 1999 move to the year 2000. In the run up there was scare story after scare story which all, as it turned out, failed to materialise."

    The Millennium Bug was not a problem because a huge amount of mitigation was put in place to prevent it and minimise its effects. Basically there was a plan and people knew what had to be done and buckled down and did it.

    Brexit has no plan. No idea of what it means. It is like a Millennium Bug with no one agreeing what the fix is.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 47,605
    Mr. Eagles, that isn't what I was wondering, though.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 16,599
    edited February 6

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    The Daily Mail front page is amusing. "Please don't laugh at us". Apparently one is also not supposed to laugh at children when they fall over as it enrages them.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,877

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    I disagree 100% with the Millenium Bug analogy. This is different in every respect. The analogy is a dangerous comfort blanket.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 20,824
    So what’s going to be tomorrow’s version of this famous headline?

  • I'm getting bored with the manoeuvres around the Withdrawal Agreement. It is a messy holding pattern until we realise that we can only chose between a Canada / Korea style deal or WTO if we want the red lines (no freedom of movement and full ability to have our own trade agreements).

    From what I've seen, I don't think the EU would honour the spirit of the political declaration - they would want a real pound of flesh for the Canada / Korea style deal.

    If we want out, it will need to be WTO then see what we can negotiate to from that clean position.

    That or Remain. Anything else is too much of a horlicks.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 1,232


    The Millennium Bug was not a problem because a huge amount of mitigation was put in place to prevent it and minimise its effects.

    Yep, $500 billion worth. And that was largely the same problem everywhere, whose consequences were known and easily identified.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
    I said I'm not upset. I found nothing upsetting.

    I am disappointed he's not seeking a compromise. When MPs from completely different wings of the divide like IDS/Baker and Morgan/Green can reach a compromise then sensible leaders which Tusk is supposed to be should be looking for an acceptable compromise too. Not stoking fires.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,219
    edited February 6
    So May goes to Dublin and gets their agreement to support a time limit or more likely a minimum notice period on the backstop. They agree because some backstop is better than none which is what they get with a no deal.

    The EU are relaxed about accepting that if Ireland are on board. Possibly agree an extended transition period (with further payments) so that it is even more unlikely that the backstop never comes into force.

    The UK Parliament is still fairly finely balanced but just supports the deal with the revision to the back stop.

    Parliament finally pulls the finger out and gets the legislation required for the deal through.

    The UK leaves on 28th March as planned.

    Simples. What could possibly go wrong? ;-)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,284
    edited February 6
    I see the reneged on Lisbon Treaty ref is going to become 'the Versaille Treaty caused WWII' of Leaverdom. While there may be some truth in it, I don't think even those who were royally fucking things up in 1939 were using 1919 as a fig leaf for their own failure.
  • I was howling with laughter watching Brexit's brain trust getting triggered by Tusk's truth bomb. You'd think these precious brexiteer snowflakes would be used to being laughed at by now, but the pearl-clutching going on is just beautiful.

    Tusk is, of course, absolutely right. The brexit buccaneers have fucked everything up good and proper, and it's the duty of everyone else to take the piss loudly, publicly, and often.

    That they get triggered so amusingly is, of course, just a reason to carry on doing it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
    I said I'm not upset. I found nothing upsetting.

    I am disappointed he's not seeking a compromise. When MPs from completely different wings of the divide like IDS/Baker and Morgan/Green can reach a compromise then sensible leaders which Tusk is supposed to be should be looking for an acceptable compromise too. Not stoking fires.
    So why are people huffing and puffing?

    On your other point, a deal had been struck. From his viewpoint, Britain is trying to reopen a negotiation that had been completed, but is doing so without any coherent aim or without any acknowledgement of the EU's own longstanding red lines. Why should the EU give up its own principles in pursuit of marsh gas?
  • BromBrom Posts: 1,254

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    FPT:

    murali_s said:

    Donald Tusk = Spot on!

    Brexiteers = Xenophobes / little Englanders / thickos (all three cohorts share one thing - no plan worth the paper it's written on).

    "Nothing has changed" - we are still heading for a calamitous Tory hard Brexit. Strap yourselves in suckers!

    And you think those comments add to the debate ?
    What debate? This place is like Northern France in WW1 - two trenches hurling ammo at each other, no movement. Just pointless skirmish after pointless skirmsh...
    And it needs dialling down

    And no - it does not compare with the death and destruction of WW1
    I was comparing the stasis, not the death-toll. Your response simply underlines the effect that there is little point in any discussion.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,888

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    Outraged? I think it's funny.

    It's always amusing when politicians start coming over all "fire and brimstone" whether that's firey reverends from Belfast or a non-entity like Tusk...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
    I said I'm not upset. I found nothing upsetting.

    I am disappointed he's not seeking a compromise. When MPs from completely different wings of the divide like IDS/Baker and Morgan/Green can reach a compromise then sensible leaders which Tusk is supposed to be should be looking for an acceptable compromise too. Not stoking fires.
    So why are people huffing and puffing?

    On your other point, a deal had been struck. From his viewpoint, Britain is trying to reopen a negotiation that had been completed, but is doing so without any coherent aim or without any acknowledgement of the EU's own longstanding red lines. Why should the EU give up its own principles in pursuit of marsh gas?
    Ask them. I'm not.

    A deal was struck with one MP. Hundreds of other MPs said very vocally and very clearly they would reject that deal and they stuck to their word. The UK isn't a dictatorship.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.

    If we had sensible, mature leaders, they would have developed a plan before triggering A50. Instead we have a collection of rabbles squabbling in public.

    It is beyond parody.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
    I said I'm not upset. I found nothing upsetting.

    I am disappointed he's not seeking a compromise. When MPs from completely different wings of the divide like IDS/Baker and Morgan/Green can reach a compromise then sensible leaders which Tusk is supposed to be should be looking for an acceptable compromise too. Not stoking fires.
    So why are people huffing and puffing?

    On your other point, a deal had been struck. From his viewpoint, Britain is trying to reopen a negotiation that had been completed, but is doing so without any coherent aim or without any acknowledgement of the EU's own longstanding red lines. Why should the EU give up its own principles in pursuit of marsh gas?
    Ask them. I'm not.

    A deal was struck with one MP. Hundreds of other MPs said very vocally and very clearly they would reject that deal and they stuck to their word. The UK isn't a dictatorship.
    You haven't addressed any of the points I made and you seem to think that you have answered them. Have you ever considered a career as an unhinged Europhobic MP?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 16,599

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
    I said I'm not upset. I found nothing upsetting.

    I am disappointed he's not seeking a compromise. When MPs from completely different wings of the divide like IDS/Baker and Morgan/Green can reach a compromise then sensible leaders which Tusk is supposed to be should be looking for an acceptable compromise too. Not stoking fires.
    So why are people huffing and puffing?

    On your other point, a deal had been struck. From his viewpoint, Britain is trying to reopen a negotiation that had been completed, but is doing so without any coherent aim or without any acknowledgement of the EU's own longstanding red lines. Why should the EU give up its own principles in pursuit of marsh gas?
    Ask them. I'm not.

    A deal was struck with one MP. Hundreds of other MPs said very vocally and very clearly they would reject that deal and they stuck to their word. The UK isn't a dictatorship.
    So how do you think international negotiations would go if the negotiations at any one time were not expected to be binding? You'd have thought that the Prime Minister would have plenipotentiary powers, no?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 49,523
    I've got a March 30th deadline for these accounts I'm doing, but of course by then its far too late... my next intermediate deadline is close Friday to get drafts off to the auditors.
    Are our dear leaders working to such mini milestones and so forth with the Brexit timetable ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    FPT:


    murali_s said:

    Donald Tusk = Spot on!

    Brexiteers = Xenophobes / little Englanders / thickos (all three cohorts share one thing - no plan worth the paper it's written on).

    "Nothing has changed" - we are still heading for a calamitous Tory hard Brexit. Strap yourselves in suckers!

    And you think those comments add to the debate ?
    What debate? This place is like Northern France in WW1 - two trenches hurling ammo at each other, no movement. Just pointless skirmish after pointless skirmsh...
    And it needs dialling down

    And no - it does not compare with the death and destruction of WW1
    I was comparing the stasis, not the death-toll. Your response simply underlines the effect that there is little point in any discussion.
    It was a good analogy. Not for the deaths but the futility and unwillingness to compromise.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,546
    edited February 6
    OT. Talking of SeanT...I've just seen 'Can You Ever Forgive Me' about a failed author who forged letters from well known writers set in New York. When I heard that Richard E Grant had been nominated for an Oscar for his part in it I was intrigued. Apart from an interesting showing in 'Withnail and I' i've never seen him be less than irritating in anything else. Sometimes even spoiling an OK film with his clunky performance.

    I shouldn't have been surprised. If you play a rakish English alcoholic gay conman in New York you rally don't need to camp it up. I can only think the Americans found him eccentric? It really wasn't
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
    He was not objecting to their views. He was objecting to their lack of preparedness. What's your next delusion?
  • BromBrom Posts: 1,254

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    Well I think it's all untrue, but it's also an opinion. Some people might say it's no more outlandish than something jingoistic Andrew Bridgen would say, problem for Tusk is that one is in charge of the EU Commission and the other is an obscure backbencher.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 1,346
    Andrew said:

    Yep, $500 billion worth. And that was largely the same problem everywhere, whose consequences were known and easily identified.

    Absolute boon city for programmers with the right skills, that was, IIRC.

    I wonder if there are equivalent groups coining it on 'no deal planning'?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 510

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
    I said I'm not upset. I found nothing upsetting.

    I am disappointed he's not seeking a compromise. When MPs from completely different wings of the divide like IDS/Baker and Morgan/Green can reach a compromise then sensible leaders which Tusk is supposed to be should be looking for an acceptable compromise too. Not stoking fires.
    So why are people huffing and puffing?

    On your other point, a deal had been struck. From his viewpoint, Britain is trying to reopen a negotiation that had been completed, but is doing so without any coherent aim or without any acknowledgement of the EU's own longstanding red lines. Why should the EU give up its own principles in pursuit of marsh gas?
    Ask them. I'm not.

    A deal was struck with one MP. Hundreds of other MPs said very vocally and very clearly they would reject that deal and they stuck to their word. The UK isn't a dictatorship.
    You haven't addressed any of the points I made and you seem to think that you have answered them. Have you ever considered a career as an unhinged Europhobic MP?
    Why would he? Being an unhinged Europhobic PB Leaver is more fun, and pays better.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,367

    Mr. Eagles, it'd be fascinating if we could see what a competent UK negotiation would've resulted in.

    You are deluded. The best dealmaker in the world would have done no better. The problem lies in the task not the negotiations.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 21,215
    kinabalu said:

    Andrew said:

    Yep, $500 billion worth. And that was largely the same problem everywhere, whose consequences were known and easily identified.

    Absolute boon city for programmers with the right skills, that was, IIRC.

    I wonder if there are equivalent groups coining it on 'no deal planning'?
    Of course: lawyers. And they will continue to coin it for a long time yet, in all scenarios.
  • Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    He didn't go far enough.

    He believes brexit and all brexiteers are evil and deserve to burn very slowly and tortuously painfully in the fieriest pits of hell, and he should have said so.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 1,253

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    For those of us who supported Remain it is extremely disappointing that this is the attitude shown in a negotiation with one of the largest and most influential nations in the world. If we were seeking a trade deal from the outside language like this would no be used.

    Secondly it overlooks the nature of the vote. If he had said Cameron should have a special place in hell then perhaps that would be justified in his world view, however Cameron structured the vote in a way he could not see losing, and the government back d his position. Cameron thought that if he asked for people to vote for a nebulous idea, that brought out the racists like Farage on one wing, and the free traders on the other side that this would not have been successful. Europe clearly didn’t think we would vote to leave or they would have given Cameron something after his negotiations - instead they humiliated him, and by association the whole country, and he now expects the country to be grateful for continued supplication. I suspect after this we will see a further increase in support for no deal, supposedly what the EU don’t want.
  • Roger said:

    OT. Talking of SeanT...I've just seen 'Can You Ever Forgive Me' about a failed author who forged letters from well known writers set in New York. When I heard that Richard E Grant had been nominated for an Oscar for his part in it I was intrigued. Apart from an interesting showing in 'Withnail and I' i've never seen him be less than irritating in anything else. Sometimes even spoiling an OK film with his clunky performance.

    I shouldn't have been surprised. If you play a rakish English alcoholic gay conman in New York you rally don't need to camp it up. I can only think the Americans found him eccentric? It really wasn't

    It was a great film. Really enjoyed it.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 1,232
    kinabalu said:


    I wonder if there are equivalent groups coining it on 'no deal planning'?

    The consultancy services will be raking it in.

    The difference is the programmers had a narrow and well-defined task, and the absolute ability to fix it. The consultancy clowns have neither.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 6,753
    Chris said:

    Doesn’t Tusk realise the UK holds all the cards?

    He's on the brink of capitulation. When he sobers up he'll offer to concede on the backstop.
    The problem is that the telephones in Wolfsburg are all out of order, so the CEO of VW had to send a carrier pigeon, but a Syrian refugee ate it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    Well I think it's all untrue, but it's also an opinion. Some people might say it's no more outlandish than something jingoistic Andrew Bridgen would say, problem for Tusk is that one is in charge of the EU Commission and the other is an obscure backbencher.
    He made a specific point, expressed in robust terms, that Leave advocates were completely unprepared for what they advocated (and that they should be morally castigated for that). What bit of that is untrue or unfair?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 1,159
    Hadn't seen this before. Top trolling by the Lib Dems.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 32,764
    Hackers working on behalf of Chinese intelligence breached the network of Norwegian software firm Visma to steal secrets from its clients, cyber security researchers said, in what a company executive described as a potentially catastrophic attack.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cyber-norway-visma/china-hacked-norways-visma-to-steal-client-secrets-investigators-idUSKCN1PV141
  • ChrisChris Posts: 1,961

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    The funny thing is, I find it difficult to imagine those on the other side of the argument admitting they were wrong, no matter what the evidence.

    But it shouldn't be beyond the ingenuity of the people here to agree an objective measure of how bad, or how not bad, a No Deal Brexit would be. Who knows, perhaps bets could even be placed on it.

    Would you accept the value of the pound as a criterion, or is the idea that the lower it goes the better?
  • I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    Rationality at last - I was beginning to dispair of PB.

    Seriously the open border with Eire envisaged by the WA is a real worry for agriculture. Macron and Varhaker do not understand the storm they are sowing for, lets face it, pretty base partisan reasons. Fortunately the next set of national elections will dispatch them both to Donald Tusk's special place, and not before time.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 2,049
    DavidL said:

    So May goes to Dublin and gets their agreement to support a time limit or more likely a minimum notice period on the backstop. They agree because some backstop is better than none which is what they get with a no deal.

    The EU are relaxed about accepting that if Ireland are on board. Possibly agree an extended transition period (with further payments) so that it is even more unlikely that the backstop never comes into force.

    The UK Parliament is still fairly finely balanced but just supports the deal with the revision to the back stop.

    Parliament finally pulls the finger out and gets the legislation required for the deal through.

    The UK leaves on 28th March as planned.

    Simples. What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

    That double negative in the second para?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610
    TOPPING said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset but considering Parliament has only just voted to ratify a deal if a compromise can be reached one would think a mature and sensible leader within the EU would be seeking to find an acceptable compromise. Not last out with juvenile jibes one would more expect of trolls like Farage.

    But then if the EU had mature and sensible leaders willing to compromise then we wouldn't be leaving.
    As I said, what do you find upsetting about what he said?
    I said I'm not upset. I found nothing upsetting.

    I am disappointed he's not seeking a compromise. When MPs from completely different wings of the divide like IDS/Baker and Morgan/Green can reach a compromise then sensible leaders which Tusk is supposed to be should be looking for an acceptable compromise too. Not stoking fires.
    So why are people huffing and puffing?

    On your other point, a deal had been struck. From his viewpoint, Britain is trying to reopen a negotiation that had been completed, but is doing so without any coherent aim or without any acknowledgement of the EU's own longstanding red lines. Why should the EU give up its own principles in pursuit of marsh gas?
    Ask them. I'm not.

    A deal was struck with one MP. Hundreds of other MPs said very vocally and very clearly they would reject that deal and they stuck to their word. The UK isn't a dictatorship.
    So how do you think international negotiations would go if the negotiations at any one time were not expected to be binding? You'd have thought that the Prime Minister would have plenipotentiary powers, no?
    Parliament could have voted to make the negotiations binding. They voted instead to give themselves a meaningful vote. We can thank Grieve et al for that. That was before the deal was concluded so was well known at the time. Ironically from memory the ERG voted against Grieve's meaningful vote amendment.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    For those of us who supported Remain it is extremely disappointing that this is the attitude shown in a negotiation with one of the largest and most influential nations in the world. If we were seeking a trade deal from the outside language like this would no be used.

    Secondly it overlooks the nature of the vote. If he had said Cameron should have a special place in hell then perhaps that would be justified in his world view, however Cameron structured the vote in a way he could not see losing, and the government back d his position. Cameron thought that if he asked for people to vote for a nebulous idea, that brought out the racists like Farage on one wing, and the free traders on the other side that this would not have been successful. Europe clearly didn’t think we would vote to leave or they would have given Cameron something after his negotiations - instead they humiliated him, and by association the whole country, and he now expects the country to be grateful for continued supplication. I suspect after this we will see a further increase in support for no deal, supposedly what the EU don’t want.
    So you're outraged. What is it, precisely, that outrages you about what he said? People advocated Leave, telling us that it would be the easiest deal in human history. None of them claimed that a deal would not be struck. But none of them had a plan to deal with the questions that came up, even in outline.
  • Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    You are wrong Alistair, evey Leaver I have talked to this afternoon has been delighted by Tusk's comments. Even the most extreme Remainer was embarrassed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 47,605
    Mr. Felix, the task was certainly challenging, but I don't agree that May did the best possible job of it (implicit in your comment).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,546

    Roger said:

    OT. Talking of SeanT...I've just seen 'Can You Ever Forgive Me' about a failed author who forged letters from well known writers set in New York. When I heard that Richard E Grant had been nominated for an Oscar for his part in it I was intrigued. Apart from an interesting showing in 'Withnail and I' i've never seen him be less than irritating in anything else. Sometimes even spoiling an OK film with his clunky performance.

    I shouldn't have been surprised. If you play a rakish English alcoholic gay conman in New York you rally don't need to camp it up. I can only think the Americans found him eccentric? It really wasn't

    It was a great film. Really enjoyed it.
    Oh dear!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    You are wrong Alistair, evey Leaver I have talked to this afternoon has been delighted by Tusk's comments. Even the most extreme Remainer was embarrassed.
    Yet another "meta" comment about reactions to Mr Tusk's comments. But what is objectionable about them?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610
    Chris said:

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    The funny thing is, I find it difficult to imagine those on the other side of the argument admitting they were wrong, no matter what the evidence.

    But it shouldn't be beyond the ingenuity of the people here to agree an objective measure of how bad, or how not bad, a No Deal Brexit would be. Who knows, perhaps bets could even be placed on it.

    Would you accept the value of the pound as a criterion, or is the idea that the lower it goes the better?
    No I would not as I see the value of the pound as largely meaningless in and of itself and it acts as a freely floating stabiliser and shock absorber (and no deal would be a shock so I expect the pound would fall).

    I think a far better metric would be a comparator between UK and EU real GDP per capita growth 10-20 years after Brexit.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,284
    His unrequited love for Boris has finally sent him off the rails.



  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 8,989

    Hadn't seen this before. Top trolling by the Lib Dems.

    That's all it is. Finding an alternative Brexit solution is government policy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 6,753

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    Having perused the forecast, I am interested in a wager.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/08/uk-economic-growth-slowest-europe-next-year-european-commission-forecasts-brexit

    I think it is possible that some (Italy or Belgium perhaps) will have worse growth than us, but it is highly improbable that we will grow faster than the emerging economies of Eastern Europe, like Slovakia or Romania, all of which are resistant to Brexit effects.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
    He was not objecting to their views. He was objecting to their lack of preparedness. What's your next delusion?
    I don't think there was a lack of preparedness. I think he objects in reality to leavers not capitulating to the EU's insane backstop demands.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
    He was not objecting to their views. He was objecting to their lack of preparedness. What's your next delusion?
    I don't think there was a lack of preparedness. I think he objects in reality to leavers not capitulating to the EU's insane backstop demands.
    So you're outraged by what you imagine he thinks rather than what he actually said? How Brexit.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
    He was not objecting to their views. He was objecting to their lack of preparedness. What's your next delusion?
    I don't think there was a lack of preparedness. I think he objects in reality to leavers not capitulating to the EU's insane backstop demands.
    So you're outraged by what you imagine he thinks rather than what he actually said? How Brexit.
    What part of I'm not outraged are you struggling with?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 20,824

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    You are wrong Alistair, evey Leaver I have talked to this afternoon has been delighted by Tusk's comments. Even the most extreme Remainer was embarrassed.
    Yup. Every time one of the EU elites speaks like Tusk did today, it brings a few more people over to the Leave side. It’s like Obama’s ‘back of the queue’ comment all over again.

    Those in favour of remain / 2nd referendum / customs union need to give a nudge to Tusk, Junker et al, that their comments and general attitude are less than helpful.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
    He was not objecting to their views. He was objecting to their lack of preparedness. What's your next delusion?
    I don't think there was a lack of preparedness. I think he objects in reality to leavers not capitulating to the EU's insane backstop demands.
    So you're outraged by what you imagine he thinks rather than what he actually said? How Brexit.
    What part of I'm not outraged are you struggling with?
    I'm struggling with the bit that consists of "I'm not outraged but HOW DARE HE SAY AND THINK SUCH AWFUL THINGS..."
  • ChrisChris Posts: 1,961

    Chris said:

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    The funny thing is, I find it difficult to imagine those on the other side of the argument admitting they were wrong, no matter what the evidence.

    But it shouldn't be beyond the ingenuity of the people here to agree an objective measure of how bad, or how not bad, a No Deal Brexit would be. Who knows, perhaps bets could even be placed on it.

    Would you accept the value of the pound as a criterion, or is the idea that the lower it goes the better?
    No I would not as I see the value of the pound as largely meaningless in and of itself and it acts as a freely floating stabiliser and shock absorber (and no deal would be a shock so I expect the pound would fall).

    I think a far better metric would be a comparator between UK and EU real GDP per capita growth 10-20 years after Brexit.
    10-20 years seems rather a long time.

    If you're talking about the Millennium Bug as an analogy, we should know within the next three months whether you're right or not, shouldn't we? We just need to fix an objective criterion of disaster for this April.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
    He was not objecting to their views. He was objecting to their lack of preparedness. What's your next delusion?
    I don't think there was a lack of preparedness. I think he objects in reality to leavers not capitulating to the EU's insane backstop demands.
    So you're outraged by what you imagine he thinks rather than what he actually said? How Brexit.
    What part of I'm not outraged are you struggling with?
    I'm struggling with the bit that consists of "I'm not outraged but HOW DARE HE SAY AND THINK SUCH AWFUL THINGS..."
    Except I didn't say that. So it seems you're struggling with something you imagine I think rather than what I actually said. To paraphrase a certain somebody.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 1,346

    ah, pensioners with nowt to do?
    I'm so busy these days I wonder I had the time to go to work.

    Actually that's not true. I've slowed down a bit lately. However I've spent the past couple of hours determining which Summer Sundays I'm prepared to devote to assisting with our local Museum.

    :-)

    Life in the fast lane!

    Me, I like to lie on the sofa most days and just watch the clock, watch the big finger whiz round and round, and the little finger do the same but much more slowly. It's quite easy to see the big finger actually move but the little one you never can. And yet even though it is impossible to see it move, i.e. it appears always perfectly still, nevertheless after any significant period of time it will have discernibly moved. With my clock, the one I stare at, in an hour it will have moved by approximately one inch.

    Moral there, for Brexit, I would have thought.
  • We had this discussion at the time.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,058

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    That's a different question to the one you asked me. The bit I think is untrue is that there's a place in hell for politicians with views different to his.

    Then again I don't believe in hell nor do I think religion and politics make good bedfellows.
    He was not objecting to their views. He was objecting to their lack of preparedness. What's your next delusion?
    I don't think there was a lack of preparedness. I think he objects in reality to leavers not capitulating to the EU's insane backstop demands.
    So you're outraged by what you imagine he thinks rather than what he actually said? How Brexit.
    What part of I'm not outraged are you struggling with?
    I'm struggling with the bit that consists of "I'm not outraged but HOW DARE HE SAY AND THINK SUCH AWFUL THINGS..."
    Making stuff up again Mr Meeks. Shame on you.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610
    Foxy said:

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    Having perused the forecast, I am interested in a wager.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/08/uk-economic-growth-slowest-europe-next-year-european-commission-forecasts-brexit

    I think it is possible that some (Italy or Belgium perhaps) will have worse growth than us, but it is highly improbable that we will grow faster than the emerging economies of Eastern Europe, like Slovakia or Romania, all of which are resistant to Brexit effects.
    I said G7. The comparators are France, Italy and Germany.
  • BromBrom Posts: 1,254

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    Well I think it's all untrue, but it's also an opinion. Some people might say it's no more outlandish than something jingoistic Andrew Bridgen would say, problem for Tusk is that one is in charge of the EU Commission and the other is an obscure backbencher.
    He made a specific point, expressed in robust terms, that Leave advocates were completely unprepared for what they advocated (and that they should be morally castigated for that). What bit of that is untrue or unfair?
    Would you agree with May if she used similar language to dismiss Tusk for his role in the migrant crisis or the recent woes of the Eurozone? Perhaps Cameron could have said that Tusk was hopeless at negotiation and deserved a place at Satan's house.

    You of course can think he served out some real justice but I think the reality is he slipped up.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    edited February 6
    I'm still waiting for a single Leaver to explain to me why anyone should be upset by Donald Tusk's comments. I'm putting it down to a toxic combination of bluntness and foreignness.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    The funny thing is, I find it difficult to imagine those on the other side of the argument admitting they were wrong, no matter what the evidence.

    But it shouldn't be beyond the ingenuity of the people here to agree an objective measure of how bad, or how not bad, a No Deal Brexit would be. Who knows, perhaps bets could even be placed on it.

    Would you accept the value of the pound as a criterion, or is the idea that the lower it goes the better?
    No I would not as I see the value of the pound as largely meaningless in and of itself and it acts as a freely floating stabiliser and shock absorber (and no deal would be a shock so I expect the pound would fall).

    I think a far better metric would be a comparator between UK and EU real GDP per capita growth 10-20 years after Brexit.
    10-20 years seems rather a long time.

    If you're talking about the Millennium Bug as an analogy, we should know within the next three months whether you're right or not, shouldn't we? We just need to fix an objective criterion of disaster for this April.
    Well 10-20 years is to see over the long term if it was good or bad.

    Over the short term if it is a disaster as foreseen then I think that would show up as an immediate recession, an immediate surge in unemployment etc. You know the sort of things Osborne warned us about if we voted to leave.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,546
    edited February 6

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    For those of us who supported Remain it is extremely disappointing that this is the attitude shown in a negotiation with one of the largest and most influential nations in the world. If we were seeking a trade deal from the outside language like this would no be used.

    He resisted calling her 'little rocket woman'..... If you spent two years negotiating an agreement and having reached one were told it's back to the drawing board because the negotiators had no authority to reach agreement I doubt you'd think you'd been dealing with one of the most influential countries in the world. Possibly a banana republic

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 20,824

    We had this discussion at the time.

    Sadly yes. Lots of argument coming with lawyers and insurance companies, over who was responsible for the player as he flew from one club to another. I also doubt any premier league player is going to be allowed near a single-engined plane any time soon, either.
  • rawzerrawzer Posts: 98
    edited February 6
    I am not sure what everyone agreeing this is like the Millenium Bug means. The software company I worked for in the years running up to 2000 spent a substantial slice of its development resource fixing its products before the date clicked over. When the operating system clocks were set to 2000 in 1998 every product crashed - by the real 2000 we were clean and nothing crashed. The Millenium Bug was real but it was by and large addressed by folk doing their job properly. Being able to time travel the kit was a massive help - sadly we cant set our system clocks forward to April 2019 and check what actually happens with No Deal - which creates a nice unknown for everyone to party with.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    Well I think it's all untrue, but it's also an opinion. Some people might say it's no more outlandish than something jingoistic Andrew Bridgen would say, problem for Tusk is that one is in charge of the EU Commission and the other is an obscure backbencher.
    He made a specific point, expressed in robust terms, that Leave advocates were completely unprepared for what they advocated (and that they should be morally castigated for that). What bit of that is untrue or unfair?
    Would you agree with May if she used similar language to dismiss Tusk for his role in the migrant crisis or the recent woes of the Eurozone? Perhaps Cameron could have said that Tusk was hopeless at negotiation and deserved a place at Satan's house.

    You of course can think he served out some real justice but I think the reality is he slipped up.

    What is it that he said that you think was inappropriate? I'm still waiting.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    I'm still waiting for a single Leaver to explain to me why anyone should be upset by Donald Tusk's comments. I'm putting it down to a toxic combination of bluntness and foreignness.

    I'm still waiting for a single leaver to claim to be upset.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,058

    We had this discussion at the time.

    Horrible as the discussion is that seems a perfectly fair demand from Nantes and given the amount of money involved they can hardly afford to just ignore it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 7,455
    Looks like we have reached the ultimate point of the Brexit debate with the invocation of hell, damnation, fire & brimstone.

    "Now Father, what do you think about Brexit?"

    "That would be an ecumenical matter"
  • ChrisChris Posts: 1,961
    rawzer said:

    I am not sure what everyone agreeing this is like the Millenium Bug means. The software company I worked for in the years running up to 2000 spent a substantial slice of its development resource fixing its products before the date clicked over. When the operating system clocks were set to 2000 in 1998 every product crashed - by the real 2000 we were clean and nothing crashed. The Millenium Bug was real but it was by and large addressed by folk doing their job properly. Being able to time travel the kit was a massive help - sadly we cant set our system clocks forward to April 2019 and check what actually happens with No Deal - which creates a nice unknown for everyone to party with.

    We could actually have a practice a month early if we wanted to.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610
    Roger said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    For those of us who supported Remain it is extremely disappointing that this is the attitude shown in a negotiation with one of the largest and most influential nations in the world. If we were seeking a trade deal from the outside language like this would no be used.

    He resisted calling her 'little rocket woman'..... If you spent two years negotiating an agreement and and having reached one were told it's back to the drawing board because the negotiators had no authority to reach agreement I doubt you'd think you'd been dealing with one of the most influential countries in the world. Possibly a banana republic

    If the UK were a banana republic then May could unilaterally ratify her deal. The EU is negotiating with a Parliamentary Democracy not a banana republic. Any deal must satisfy Parliament.

    Incidentally good luck getting the USA to finalise ratification of an international agreement most Senators oppose no matter how much the POTUS wants it ratifying.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143

    Looks like we have reached the ultimate point of the Brexit debate with the invocation of hell, damnation, fire & brimstone.

    "Now Father, what do you think about Brexit?"

    "That would be an ecumenical matter"

    I expect that the death cult will get to serve their penance in this life and not need to wait for the hereafter.
  • BromBrom Posts: 1,254

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    Well I think it's all untrue, but it's also an opinion. Some people might say it's no more outlandish than something jingoistic Andrew Bridgen would say, problem for Tusk is that one is in charge of the EU Commission and the other is an obscure backbencher.
    He made a specific point, expressed in robust terms, that Leave advocates were completely unprepared for what they advocated (and that they should be morally castigated for that). What bit of that is untrue or unfair?
    Would you agree with May if she used similar language to dismiss Tusk for his role in the migrant crisis or the recent woes of the Eurozone? Perhaps Cameron could have said that Tusk was hopeless at negotiation and deserved a place at Satan's house.

    You of course can think he served out some real justice but I think the reality is he slipped up.

    What is it that he said that you think was inappropriate? I'm still waiting.
    I've told you, I thought he was incorrect but more importantly his tone was entirely out of keeping with his supposedly conciliatory message. So at best he's contradicted himself and at worst he's not very good at his job. The fact you'll accept no legitimate critique of Mr Tusk shows where your head is at with regards Brexit. And just to clarify from a leave voter point of view I'm delighted with his outburst.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 1,961

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    I agree 100% with the Millennium Bug analogy.

    In fact it's looking to me increasingly likely that however we leave (even with no deal), the UK will over the following year grow faster than the Eurozone. We will probably be the fastest growing European G7 economy.

    But I doubt even that will make many people eat humble pie.

    The funny thing is, I find it difficult to imagine those on the other side of the argument admitting they were wrong, no matter what the evidence.

    But it shouldn't be beyond the ingenuity of the people here to agree an objective measure of how bad, or how not bad, a No Deal Brexit would be. Who knows, perhaps bets could even be placed on it.

    Would you accept the value of the pound as a criterion, or is the idea that the lower it goes the better?
    No I would not as I see the value of the pound as largely meaningless in and of itself and it acts as a freely floating stabiliser and shock absorber (and no deal would be a shock so I expect the pound would fall).

    I think a far better metric would be a comparator between UK and EU real GDP per capita growth 10-20 years after Brexit.
    10-20 years seems rather a long time.

    If you're talking about the Millennium Bug as an analogy, we should know within the next three months whether you're right or not, shouldn't we? We just need to fix an objective criterion of disaster for this April.
    Well 10-20 years is to see over the long term if it was good or bad.

    Over the short term if it is a disaster as foreseen then I think that would show up as an immediate recession, an immediate surge in unemployment etc. You know the sort of things Osborne warned us about if we voted to leave.
    So are you willing to put a precise figure to it? Say a prediction about unemployment by the end of May? (I mean the month, not the prime minister.)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,143
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    I'm not upset as I think it works in favour of support for leaving the EU. However if Theresa May said that those EU bigwigs and Europhiles responsible for the mess Europe is in belong in hell then I expect she'd get a battering from the public and the media.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a politician of some stature then you use the language of Merkel. If you want to make waves on social media but undermine your seniority then use the language of Tusk.
    What bit of what he said do you think is either untrue or unfair comment?

    When you boil it down, the death cult's only point is "we don't like what he said".
    Well I think it's all untrue, but it's also an opinion. Some people might say it's no more outlandish than something jingoistic Andrew Bridgen would say, problem for Tusk is that one is in charge of the EU Commission and the other is an obscure backbencher.
    He made a specific point, expressed in robust terms, that Leave advocates were completely unprepared for what they advocated (and that they should be morally castigated for that). What bit of that is untrue or unfair?
    Would you agree with May if she used similar language to dismiss Tusk for his role in the migrant crisis or the recent woes of the Eurozone? Perhaps Cameron could have said that Tusk was hopeless at negotiation and deserved a place at Satan's house.

    You of course can think he served out some real justice but I think the reality is he slipped up.

    What is it that he said that you think was inappropriate? I'm still waiting.
    I've told you, I thought he was incorrect but more importantly his tone was entirely out of keeping with his supposedly conciliatory message. So at best he's contradicted himself and at worst he's not very good at his job. The fact you'll accept no legitimate critique of Mr Tusk shows where your head is at with regards Brexit. And just to clarify from a leave voter point of view I'm delighted with his outburst.

    You've yet to identify what you think is untrue.
  • BromBrom Posts: 1,254

    We had this discussion at the time.

    Horrible as the discussion is that seems a perfectly fair demand from Nantes and given the amount of money involved they can hardly afford to just ignore it.
    While they are right to expect some kind of fee they should probably be waiting a lot longer. They are no longer paying his wages, the transfer window is shut so best wait for a salvaging effort or any inquest before going down this route. It's not as if Nantes are some non league club living hand to mouth. It's very poor PR and I'm not surprised if Cardiff have leaked this to the press.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 17,610

    We had this discussion at the time.

    Horrible as the discussion is that seems a perfectly fair demand from Nantes and given the amount of money involved they can hardly afford to just ignore it.
    I suppose it would be like a fire on the day of a house sale. At what point is the transaction complete?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 49,523

    We had this discussion at the time.

    It would be utterly unconsionable for Cardiff to withhold payment, unless there is some odd clause in his contract. He became a Cardiff player on the 19th, his flight arrangements were absolubtely nothing whatsoever to do with Nantes (the football club) on the 21st at which point he was a Cardiff player.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,178
    Roger said:

    I appreciate that Mr Tusk has been blunt. I appreciate that his message has not been well-received by Leavers. Could one of those outraged Leavers articulate what it is about what he says that they find so upsetting?

    For those of us who supported Remain it is extremely disappointing that this is the attitude shown in a negotiation with one of the largest and most influential nations in the world. If we were seeking a trade deal from the outside language like this would no be used.

    He resisted calling her 'little rocket woman'..... If you spent two years negotiating an agreement and having reached one were told it's back to the drawing board because the negotiators had no authority to reach agreement I doubt you'd think you'd been dealing with one of the most influential countries in the world. Possibly a banana republic

    You think Tusk, Barnier and Juncker believed their deal would get HoC approval? If so, they were astonishingly badly briefed. If not - what were they playing at?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,985
    A few potential tests for Brexit and claims made about it.
    I have deliberately worded these so that a few weeks of minor disruptions doesn't count, but rather that these would indicate significant disruption, or longer-lasting disruption.

    - Are tariffs imposed on British-made cars by the EU within a year of leaving?
    - Are there stationary queues of lorries waiting to cross the Channel a month after exit day?
    - Are there stationary queues of lorries waiting to cross the Channel six months after exit day?
    - Has the military been used for civilian purposes in response to disruption caused by Brexit?
    - Has there been any special restriction placed on distribution of goods by government or by two or more of the major supermarkets (i.e. rationing) of food or petrol?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 49,523

    We had this discussion at the time.

    Horrible as the discussion is that seems a perfectly fair demand from Nantes and given the amount of money involved they can hardly afford to just ignore it.
    I suppose it would be like a fire on the day of a house sale. At what point is the transaction complete?
    19th January.
This discussion has been closed.