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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In terms of influence on major policy developments Corbyn toda

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited February 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In terms of influence on major policy developments Corbyn today is surely the most power opposition leader in decades

To me the biggest development of the day was the response by Donald Tusk to the Labour proposal for Brexit. The details envisage a softer brexit then Theresa May’s plan but because of the numbers in the Commons there’s a good chance that this is what could actually be agreed.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 36,414
    First :smiley:
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 1,370
    Second again, like Corbyn
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813
    May has adopted much else from Jezzas manifesto, why not complete the set?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136
    I'm surprised that you think the UK will leave on time. That only seems possible in a no deal crash out now. If the deal gets voted on late Feb/early March let alone late March is there the time to get all enabling legislation through?

    Or do we just leave and pretend we have the legislation through then do so?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,304
    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813

    I'm surprised that you think the UK will leave on time. That only seems possible in a no deal crash out now. If the deal gets voted on late Feb/early March let alone late March is there the time to get all enabling legislation through?

    Or do we just leave and pretend we have the legislation through then do so?

    Personally, I am on March 29th. If there is one thing we know about May is that she is stubbon to the point of mulishness.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 25,141
    Maybe it's time for a second referendum to end the deadlock.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,978
    FPT

    dots said:

    We could get #CorbynsCustomsUnion through Parliament But, that's never going to happen. TM is far too myopic and inflexible.

    Its not myopic, a customs union is the wrong thing to do and goes against what we voted for twice.

    In the referendum it was an explicit argument of the Vote Leave campaign that we would sign our own trade deals.
    In the general election it was explicitly in the manifesto that we would sign our own trade deals.

    It isn't myopic to insist we leave the customs union, it is democratic.

    Thommo

    But here’s the acid test. Put it to the people tomorrow.

    Here, folks, everybody. You can have one of these nice proper brexits, or you can have one of these vassaly wish washy custom union brexits where we have the benefits of the custom union but cant sign our own trade deals.

    Go on. You quite confident how the public will vote on that forced choice?

    Put it to the people tomorrow. 🙃
    Or you can Remain. Put that to the people tomorrow.
    No Remain option that doesn't address any of the concerns that led to the original Leave vote can be put to the people.
    Ok, Remain, plus a lifetime ban on Cameron, Clegg and Blair from holding any political office.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813
    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
  • Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 28,073

    FPT

    dots said:

    We could get #CorbynsCustomsUnion through Parliament But, that's never going to happen. TM is far too myopic and inflexible.

    Its not myopic, a customs union is the wrong thing to do and goes against what we voted for twice.

    In the referendum it was an explicit argument of the Vote Leave campaign that we would sign our own trade deals.
    In the general election it was explicitly in the manifesto that we would sign our own trade deals.

    It isn't myopic to insist we leave the customs union, it is democratic.

    Thommo

    But here’s the acid test. Put it to the people tomorrow.

    Here, folks, everybody. You can have one of these nice proper brexits, or you can have one of these vassaly wish washy custom union brexits where we have the benefits of the custom union but cant sign our own trade deals.

    Go on. You quite confident how the public will vote on that forced choice?

    Put it to the people tomorrow. 🙃
    Or you can Remain. Put that to the people tomorrow.
    No Remain option that doesn't address any of the concerns that led to the original Leave vote can be put to the people.
    Ok, Remain, plus a lifetime ban on Cameron, Clegg and Blair from holding any political office.
    Get this through your head William: we don't want your dreamnightmare of federal political union and to be absorbed into a new country called Europe.

    Come up with a new form of relationship between the UK and the EU. Then we can talk.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,806
    I cannot see the vast majority of Tories going for a permanent customs union.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,441

    FPT

    dots said:

    We could get #CorbynsCustomsUnion through Parliament But, that's never going to happen. TM is far too myopic and inflexible.

    Its not myopic, a customs union is the wrong thing to do and goes against what we voted for twice.

    In the referendum it was an explicit argument of the Vote Leave campaign that we would sign our own trade deals.
    In the general election it was explicitly in the manifesto that we would sign our own trade deals.

    It isn't myopic to insist we leave the customs union, it is democratic.

    Thommo

    But here’s the acid test. Put it to the people tomorrow.

    Here, folks, everybody. You can have one of these nice proper brexits, or you can have one of these vassaly wish washy custom union brexits where we have the benefits of the custom union but cant sign our own trade deals.

    Go on. You quite confident how the public will vote on that forced choice?

    Put it to the people tomorrow. 🙃
    Or you can Remain. Put that to the people tomorrow.
    No Remain option that doesn't address any of the concerns that led to the original Leave vote can be put to the people.
    Ok, Remain, plus a lifetime ban on Cameron, Clegg and Blair from holding any political office.
    How about Remain. And a public flogging for Cameron, Clegg & Blair.

    As well as any poster who twitters on endlessly about xenophobia causing the Leave vote,

    And, as a goodwill gesture from the Leave side, Jacob Rees-Mogg will be filled to the brim with bees.
  • Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
  • I cannot see the vast majority of Tories going for a permanent customs union.

    We may as well remain
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 28,073
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Gives you lots and lots of trade deals. None of the downsides of Mays deal.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Gives you lots and lots of trade deals. None of the downsides of Mays deal.
    Not our own
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Lol. 🙃

    At least i am now convinced, OGH plays devils advocate with the headers, they are click bait. This is the most ludicrous one since Meeks World War Weird effort.

    Corbyn in some sort of position of power and influence rarely witnessed in a LOTO?

    Oh it hurts 😂 stop it

    Its too late for Team Corbyn to prevent Brexit, impossible to spin UK not on road to hard Brexit. Whatever letters they write, whatever credibility sapping somersaults they now turn, they don’t have votes in parliament to back it up or votes in country to avoid defeat in General Election. Corbyn, McDonnell, Gardiner, 25% or less in the polls is your end, close the door behind you.

    Tusk only said that because his only joy in life now is seeing the vicars daughters face when he says these things.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 13,938
    Go Jezza!!!!!! :D
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
  • Anyway. Good to see the site working normally

    Time to go, so have a great nights rest everyone

    Good night folks

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Gives you lots and lots of trade deals. None of the downsides of Mays deal.
    Not our own
    They are ours now and would still be ours.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,395

    I cannot see the vast majority of Tories going for a permanent customs union.

    It seems very unlikely.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 28,073
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 28,073

    Anyway. Good to see the site working normally

    Time to go, so have a great nights rest everyone

    Good night folks

    Good idea. I've had enough for one day, and have more important things to take care of too.

    Goodnight.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,304
    MaxPB said:

    I cannot see the vast majority of Tories going for a permanent customs union.

    It seems very unlikely.
    Indeed. I can’t see May doing a Macdonald here.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136
    Foxy said:

    I'm surprised that you think the UK will leave on time. That only seems possible in a no deal crash out now. If the deal gets voted on late Feb/early March let alone late March is there the time to get all enabling legislation through?

    Or do we just leave and pretend we have the legislation through then do so?

    Personally, I am on March 29th. If there is one thing we know about May is that she is stubbon to the point of mulishness.
    Sort of.

    She's stubborn until she isn't and then it is like "we have always been at war with Eastasia".
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Only some of them. It’s broken beyond repair.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 50,866
    2nd Ref
    May's Brexit
    Jezza's Brexit.
    I think I'd plump for Jez's CU option actually, to be implemented by May and Co.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The EU Parliament can censure and remove any of them.
  • Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Fewer things for the government to fuck up then.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,978

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The Brexiteer bête noire is Olly Robbins. How do you get rid of him?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,985

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Fewer things for the government to fuck up then.
    Doesn't that just leave the same amount of fuck up being compressed to really, really fuck up those fewer things?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 1,392
    Is Motherwell a unionist stronghold? Because QT is the SNP are rubbish from audience member after audience member.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The Brexiteer bête noire is Olly Robbins. How do you get rid of him?
    Get rid of May.

    Olly Robbins has been given as much leeway as he has by May, like Selmayr for Juncker. Get rid of May.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The EU Parliament can censure and remove any of them.
    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 1,392

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The Brexiteer bête noire is Olly Robbins. How do you get rid of him?
    Promote him to Ambassador to Azerbaijan.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The EU Parliament can censure and remove any of them.
    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?
    It’s exactly the same thing. You just don’t like the result.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,441

    Is Motherwell a unionist stronghold? Because QT is the SNP are rubbish from audience member after audience member.

    You should come to Wales if you want to know the meaning of rubbish.

    Wales is what the SNP saved Scotland from becoming.

    A brief snippet (Hat tip, Wings)

    The number of NHS operations cancelled for non-clinical reasons per year

    Scotland: 8,311
    Wales: 64,113

    The Welsh figures under Labour are a breathtaking 771% worse than Scotland’s.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The EU Parliament can censure and remove any of them.
    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?
    It’s exactly the same thing. You just don’t like the result.
    No its not. The UK Parliament doesn't just censor a member of the Cabinet, after an election if the people vote differently a polar opposite Cabinet can get elected.

    Who's Leader of the Opposition in the EU? Who's their Shadow Chancellor equivalent? What are the choices at the next elections?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The EU Parliament can censure and remove any of them.
    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?
    It’s exactly the same thing. You just don’t like the result.
    No it isn't. It would be like saying the only power that the UK Parliament ever has, no matter what their political composition is to No Confidence the Government. The fact that the Executive does not reflect the Legislature (if you can even call the European Parliament a true legislature given the limits on its ability to actually legislate) means there is very little similarity between the EU and UK Parliaments.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    The EU Parliament can censure and remove any of them.
    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?
    It’s exactly the same thing. You just don’t like the result.
    No its not. The UK Parliament doesn't just censor a member of the Cabinet, after an election if the people vote differently a polar opposite Cabinet can get elected.

    Who's Leader of the Opposition in the EU? Who's their Shadow Chancellor equivalent? What are the choices at the next elections?
    Good grief you really have no clue.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 3,664
    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Just because we have a trade deficit doesn't mean the customs union is not in our interests. The deficit could be worse if we left the customs union. I don't know. Neither do you.

    I do know that I will find it harder to compete outside the customs union.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    I cannot see the vast majority of Tories going for a permanent customs union.

    It seems very unlikely.
    Indeed. I can’t see May doing a Macdonald here.
    What about its not the customs union its A customs union. Clear difference between positions if its the customs union, but a CU In other words unicorn pie in the sky. I’d certainly cook a unicorn slow and low, like May cooks up a brexit. the key thing about Corbyns letter is it is nebulous meaningless shit, credit the poster on here this morning (RN?) called it flim flam, which is polite way of saying nebulous shit (nebulous shit may actually be on a Bristol stool chart as there has to be some sort where you look at it and wonder what is going on). The point being, A customs union could be defined in such a way as to not being a custom union at all, just shadow all that without any legal requirement. In practice it would be like doing no checks now, and no checks after a crash out brexit, which is the plan anyway, A not THE CU avoids the situation where you come in from the nude beach and draw the curtains to put a bikini on, and then open the curtains again, to the bewilderment of everybody watching. What I am getting at, and correct me where this stops making sense, Corbyns letter so nebulous, so for the future negotiation, so not relevant for where we are right now, its hard to talk up differences with something when it doesn’t really mean anything or carry any detail.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 1,462

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    You're being disingenuous. Tusk was chosen, twice, by the European Council. Therefore both Cameron and May have been involved in choosing him. This seems perfectly democratic. If you object to Tusk, you are free to petition Mrs May, or to vote for a party that doesn't support him.

    What is rarely mentioned about the UK is that we do not elect the government. We elect MPs, they effectively decide who the prime minister will be, and the PM chooses the government.

    A lot of nonsense is spoken about the contrast between UK and EU democracy. In fact both systems are a complex mix of direct and indirect representation and selection.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 10,815

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
    They can make their own trade deals, but is there also option to join the EU ones?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    Don’t let facts get in the way of Brexiteers world view. Off course Tories didn’t have a day because they sulked off from the EPP.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,809

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.
    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.
    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.
    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    A lot of people think you deserve it, Mr Royale!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,043
    PClipp said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.
    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.
    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.
    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    A lot of people think you deserve it, Mr Royale!
    Most unfair,
    At the very worst, purgatory.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984
    dots said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    I cannot see the vast majority of Tories going for a permanent customs union.

    It seems very unlikely.
    Indeed. I can’t see May doing a Macdonald here.
    What about its not the customs union its A customs union. Clear difference between positions if its the customs union, but a CU In other words unicorn pie in the sky. I’d certainly cook a unicorn slow and low, like May cooks up a brexit. the key thing about Corbyns letter is it is nebulous meaningless shit, credit the poster on here this morning (RN?) called it flim flam, which is polite way of saying nebulous shit (nebulous shit may actually be on a Bristol stool chart as there has to be some sort where you look at it and wonder what is going on). The point being, A customs union could be defined in such a way as to not being a custom union at all, just shadow all that without any legal requirement. In practice it would be like doing no checks now, and no checks after a crash out brexit, which is the plan anyway, A not THE CU avoids the situation where you come in from the nude beach and draw the curtains to put a bikini on, and then open the curtains again, to the bewilderment of everybody watching. What I am getting at, and correct me where this stops making sense, Corbyns letter so nebulous, so for the future negotiation, so not relevant for where we are right now, its hard to talk up differences with something when it doesn’t really mean anything or carry any detail.
    A customs union rather than The Customs Union is a truly terrible place to be in. It puts us into what is known as an asymmetric customs arrangement with the rest of the world. This is Turkeys position.

    They are in a customs union with the EU which means that any goods from 3rd party countries which have an FTA with the EU can come into Turkey tariff free. However because being out side The Customs Union means Turkey is not party to any of those FTAs itself, it is unable to sell tariff free into any of those third party countries unless is gets its own FTA with them - something which is almost impossible because those countries already have tariff free access to the Turkish market.

    If that is what Corbyn is proposing he is a lunatic.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,985

    Is Motherwell a unionist stronghold? Because QT is the SNP are rubbish from audience member after audience member.

    BBC QT has a very special audience selection policy when in Scotland. The ranting bloke in the red trackie top is on QT for at least his third time, and strangely he always gets to say his piece.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,249
    God this Annalise lass is being incredibly sanctimonious about bars in Westminster. Dear me, live and let live.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,043
    Dadge said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Bingo.

    It doesn't matter if Fox, or May, or Brown or Balls are not functional. If we don't like them we chuck them out. If we decide we're not happy with Labour we can elect other parties like in 2010. If we're not happy with Lib Dems in office we can terminate them like 2015. If we're not happy with the Tories having a unilateral majority, we can neuter that. If we decide to completely shake up the kaleidoscope we could elect Corbyn and nearly did in 2017,

    From Delors to Tusk I've never seen a way to chuck the buggers out in Europe. That's the difference.
    You're being disingenuous. Tusk was chosen, twice, by the European Council. Therefore both Cameron and May have been involved in choosing him. This seems perfectly democratic. If you object to Tusk, you are free to petition Mrs May, or to vote for a party that doesn't support him.

    What is rarely mentioned about the UK is that we do not elect the government. We elect MPs, they effectively decide who the prime minister will be, and the PM chooses the government.

    A lot of nonsense is spoken about the contrast between UK and EU democracy. In fact both systems are a complex mix of direct and indirect representation and selection.
    Wit the rather significant difference that it is almost impossible for the UK electorate on its own to throw out a European administration.

    Brexit apart, of course.
    And even then....

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984
    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
    They can make their own trade deals, but is there also option to join the EU ones?
    No. Which really doesn't matter since they have generally got trade deals long before the EU does. The Canada trade deal being a case in point.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Jonathan said:

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    Don’t let facts get in the way of Brexiteers world view. Off course Tories didn’t have a day because they sulked off from the EPP.
    Euro parliament reminds me of the undateables

    Enid Coleslaw lookalikey creepily following Barnier around could be on the undateables next week.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,043
    _Anazina_ said:

    God this Annalise lass is being incredibly sanctimonious about bars in Westminster. Dear me, live and let live.

    Absolutely.

    I need a stiff G&T just listening to Today in Parliament.
    Having to sit through it...

  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,249
    Last time I went to the House of Commons, I spent most of the time in the Strangers’ Bar. On the evidence of QT (I know, I know) we are becoming worryingly puritanical.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231
    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    Don’t let facts get in the way of Brexiteers world view. Off course Tories didn’t have a day because they sulked off from the EPP.
    Euro parliament reminds me of the undateables

    Enid Coleslaw lookalikey creepily following Barnier around could be on the undateables next week.
    Michael Fabricant.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 7,897
    AndyJS said:

    Maybe it's time for a second referendum to end the deadlock.

    In 49days, 23hrs, 13minutes.

    Pause.

    I'm not doing the paperwork... :(
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    In 2010 the Labour government was ejected and their opposition who had spent over a decade opposing Labour were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.
    In 1997 the Tory government was ejected and their opposition who had spent almost two decades opposing the Tories were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.

    What was the last European Election that changed the politics of the EU as dramatically as Blair replacing Major or Cameron replacing Brown?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,978

    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
    They can make their own trade deals, but is there also option to join the EU ones?
    No. Which really doesn't matter since they have generally got trade deals long before the EU does. The Canada trade deal being a case in point.
    Not all trade deals are equal. It's easy to do deals if you just sign up to the other side's terms.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136

    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
    They can make their own trade deals, but is there also option to join the EU ones?
    No. Which really doesn't matter since they have generally got trade deals long before the EU does. The Canada trade deal being a case in point.
    Not all trade deals are equal. It's easy to do deals if you just sign up to the other side's terms.
    Like what May wants to do with Europe?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    In 2010 the Labour government was ejected and their opposition who had spent over a decade opposing Labour were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.
    In 1997 the Tory government was ejected and their opposition who had spent almost two decades opposing the Tories were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.

    What was the last European Election that changed the politics of the EU as dramatically as Blair replacing Major or Cameron replacing Brown?
    We must concede if you want drama, choose Westminster. Good governance and competence not so much.

    Personally I’ve had enough Westminster drama, it’s low grade farce.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136
    Jonathan said:

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    In 2010 the Labour government was ejected and their opposition who had spent over a decade opposing Labour were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.
    In 1997 the Tory government was ejected and their opposition who had spent almost two decades opposing the Tories were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.

    What was the last European Election that changed the politics of the EU as dramatically as Blair replacing Major or Cameron replacing Brown?
    We must concede if you want drama, choose Westminster. Good governance and competence not so much.

    Personally I’ve had enough Westminster drama, it’s low grade farce.
    Ejecting the government isn't drama its democracy.

    When was the last time the EU government (and most importantly its policies) was ejected by the electorate to choose a different set of priorities and policies instead?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 10,815
    Nigelb said:

    <
    Wit the rather significant difference that it is almost impossible for the UK electorate on its own to throw out a European administration.

    Obviously 13% of the electorate can't throw out the administration on its own, democratically that would definitely be a bug not a feature...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 42,247
    The eternal optimist I see. Although I would agree Corbyn is pretty powerful for an opposition leader right now. Like May his gambles could see him win big, but there's plenty of risk to it and he could end up looking a fool.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231

    Jonathan said:

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    In 2010 the Labour government was ejected and their opposition who had spent over a decade opposing Labour were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.
    In 1997 the Tory government was ejected and their opposition who had spent almost two decades opposing the Tories were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.

    What was the last European Election that changed the politics of the EU as dramatically as Blair replacing Major or Cameron replacing Brown?
    We must concede if you want drama, choose Westminster. Good governance and competence not so much.

    Personally I’ve had enough Westminster drama, it’s low grade farce.
    Ejecting the government isn't drama its democracy.

    When was the last time the EU government (and most importantly its policies) was ejected by the electorate to choose a different set of priorities and policies instead?
    My constituency hasn’t changed for 150 years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136

    Nigelb said:

    <
    Wit the rather significant difference that it is almost impossible for the UK electorate on its own to throw out a European administration.

    Obviously 13% of the electorate can't throw out the administration on its own, democratically that would definitely be a bug not a feature...
    Well they can if they're independent.

    Ditto if Scotland wants true self-governance it can go independent. If its happy to let England choose the PM most of the time they can stay part of the union.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    I cannot see the vast majority of Tories going for a permanent customs union.

    It seems very unlikely.
    Indeed. I can’t see May doing a Macdonald here.
    What about its not the customs union its A customs union. Clear difference between positions if its the customs union, but a CU In other words unicorn pie in the sky. I’d certainly cook a unicorn slow and low, like May cooks up a brexit. the key thing about Corbyns letter is it is nebulous meaningless shit, credit the poster on here this morning (RN?) called it flim flam, which is polite way of saying nebulous shit (nebulous shit may actually be on a Bristol stool chart as there has to be some sort where you look at it and wonder what is going on). The point being, A customs union could be defined in such a way as to not being a custom union at all, just shadow all that without any legal requirement. In practice it would be like doing no checks now, and no checks after a crash out brexit, which is the plan anyway, A not THE CU avoids the situation where you come in from the nude beach and draw the curtains to put a bikini on, and then open the curtains again, to the bewilderment of everybody watching. What I am getting at, and correct me where this stops making sense, Corbyns letter so nebulous, so for the future negotiation, so not relevant for where we are right now, its hard to talk up differences with something when it doesn’t really mean anything or carry any detail.
    A customs union rather than The Customs Union is a truly terrible place to be in. It puts us into what is known as an asymmetric customs arrangement with the rest of the world. This is Turkeys position.

    They are in a customs union with the EU which means that any goods from 3rd party countries which have an FTA with the EU can come into Turkey tariff free. However because being out side The Customs Union means Turkey is not party to any of those FTAs itself, it is unable to sell tariff free into any of those third party countries unless is gets its own FTA with them - something which is almost impossible because those countries already have tariff free access to the Turkish market.

    If that is what Corbyn is proposing he is a lunatic.
    Totally agree. But they have never defined what they really are proposing have they? It’s shocking they have been allowed to get away with that. And the easiest way for them to do that would be to use THE customs union as starting point and explain what’s different. Until they do that its not nailed down as the lunacy you described, its the unicorn with the implication it makes a deal fly, such as Tusks jibe today. That was my point.

  • sladeslade Posts: 722
    Here in Mexico but following UK local elections! Big wins for Lib Dems in Wokingham and Bradford. Suspended Lab candidate elected in Totteridge.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not the same thing at all. UK Parliamentary elections change the course of the UK. When has EU Parliament elections changed the course of the EU?

    Last time there was an EU Parliament election, in 2014. The conservatives won, that's why their candidate for European Commission president is the European Commission president.
    In 2010 the Labour government was ejected and their opposition who had spent over a decade opposing Labour were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.
    In 1997 the Tory government was ejected and their opposition who had spent almost two decades opposing the Tories were elected instead with some very different policies as a result.

    What was the last European Election that changed the politics of the EU as dramatically as Blair replacing Major or Cameron replacing Brown?
    We must concede if you want drama, choose Westminster. Good governance and competence not so much.

    Personally I’ve had enough Westminster drama, it’s low grade farce.
    Ejecting the government isn't drama its democracy.

    When was the last time the EU government (and most importantly its policies) was ejected by the electorate to choose a different set of priorities and policies instead?
    My constituency hasn’t changed for 150 years.
    The country has though. When did Europe last?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 42,247
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Only some of them. It’s broken beyond repair.
    That's an easy way out, to just assume there's no repair.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 42,247
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    If it were that obvious no one would ever consider another outcome. Assuming everyone must therefore be stupid is comforting no doubt, but hardly likely. More likely is some outcomes were acceptable, just none currently before us.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 10,815


    Well they can if they're independent.

    Ditto if Scotland wants true self-governance it can go independent. If its happy to let England choose the PM most of the time they can stay part of the union.

    Sure, they can do that, but that's a different thing.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,809
    Nigelb said:

    PClipp said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.
    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.
    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.
    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    A lot of people think you deserve it, Mr Royale!
    Most unfair,
    At the very worst, purgatory.
    But according to Mr Tusk, all his friends will be in a special place in hell. In all fairness, I think he ought to be allowed to join them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 42,247
    Well done May for somehow, while appearing worse and worse to my eyes, seeing her best PM score overtake DK, just.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984

    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
    They can make their own trade deals, but is there also option to join the EU ones?
    No. Which really doesn't matter since they have generally got trade deals long before the EU does. The Canada trade deal being a case in point.
    Not all trade deals are equal. It's easy to do deals if you just sign up to the other side's terms.
    And there is no evidence at all that that is what Norway did with Canada or any of their other trade deals. Another Williamglenn Straw Man special.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,978

    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
    They can make their own trade deals, but is there also option to join the EU ones?
    No. Which really doesn't matter since they have generally got trade deals long before the EU does. The Canada trade deal being a case in point.
    Not all trade deals are equal. It's easy to do deals if you just sign up to the other side's terms.
    And there is no evidence at all that that is what Norway did with Canada or any of their other trade deals. Another Williamglenn Straw Man special.
    CETA is a deeper and "better" deal than the one Norway has with Canada.
  • sladeslade Posts: 722
    slade said:

    Here in Mexico but following UK local elections! Big wins for Lib Dems in Wokingham and Bradford. Suspended Lab candidate elected in Totteridge.

    Labour hold in Lambeth but big Lib Dem surge.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984
    dots said:


    Totally agree. But they have never defined what they really are proposing have they? It’s shocking they have been allowed to get away with that. And the easiest way for them to do that would be to use THE customs union as starting point and explain what’s different. Until they do that its not nailed down as the lunacy you described, its the unicorn with the implication it makes a deal fly, such as Tusks jibe today. That was my point.

    I was under the impression that being in 'The' Customs Union long term was impossible for any country not in the EU as its basic operations are defined by EU treaty (unlike the Single Market which is covered by the separate EEA Treaty)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 42,247
    So, any more resignations for May yet?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984

    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    Norway gives no control on free movement, no trade deals, and no say on rules
    Wrong on two out of three of those.

    Norway can make its own trade deals and it has significant say on the rules. The only one which you were right on was Freedom of Movement.
    They can make their own trade deals, but is there also option to join the EU ones?
    No. Which really doesn't matter since they have generally got trade deals long before the EU does. The Canada trade deal being a case in point.
    Not all trade deals are equal. It's easy to do deals if you just sign up to the other side's terms.
    And there is no evidence at all that that is what Norway did with Canada or any of their other trade deals. Another Williamglenn Straw Man special.
    CETA is a deeper and "better" deal than the one Norway has with Canada.
    Deeper is not necessarily better.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,249
    kle4 said:

    So, any more resignations for May yet?

    Friends of Lord Falconer say he is considering his options.
  • sladeslade Posts: 722
    The LD gain in Bradford might have been affected by David Ward's return to the Lib Dems.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:


    Totally agree. But they have never defined what they really are proposing have they? It’s shocking they have been allowed to get away with that. And the easiest way for them to do that would be to use THE customs union as starting point and explain what’s different. Until they do that its not nailed down as the lunacy you described, its the unicorn with the implication it makes a deal fly, such as Tusks jibe today. That was my point.

    I was under the impression that being in 'The' Customs Union long term was impossible for any country not in the EU as its basic operations are defined by EU treaty (unlike the Single Market which is covered by the separate EEA Treaty)
    So you think there are some nice bits to the current CU membership?

    removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members? That’s got to be helpful? Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs? From a manufacturing point of view, that’s got to be very helpful to us? Also it solves the problem of trade deflection, when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided. It wouldn’t be nice competing against The EU CU all around us would it, so its not just the being out, its the battle plan to be at constant war with the CU and all that will entail for our manufacturing in particular. That’s a consideration?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Only some of them. It’s broken beyond repair.
    That's an easy way out, to just assume there's no repair.
    It’s not a cop out. It’s realism. Think of all the amazing talented good people in the UK. Then think of May, Grayling, Corbyn and Burgon. Tell me that a system that puts them in charge isn’t broken. There is no way to fix it. Over a hundred years of decline hints at a problem.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,341
    I don't understand this.

    I think people are daft to underestimate Corbyn's political nous, but in betting terms it seems very unlikely that we'll be ready to leave with a deal by 29 March.

    It still seems possible a deal will be passed by the Commons by that date - perhaps thanks to Corbyn - but that's different, isn't it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 42,247
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Only some of them. It’s broken beyond repair.
    That's an easy way out, to just assume there's no repair.
    It’s not a cop out. It’s realism. Think of all the amazing talented good people in the UK. Then think of May, Grayling, Corbyn and Burgon. Tell me that a system that puts them in charge isn’t broken. There is no way to fix it. Over a hundred years of decline hints at a problem.
    I'm not disputing the problem bit. I'm not even saying I know how to fix it or that it would be easy or be guaranteed of success. But it still doesn't follow that it is not possible to fix it.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,341
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Only some of them. It’s broken beyond repair.
    That's an easy way out, to just assume there's no repair.
    It’s not a cop out. It’s realism. Think of all the amazing talented good people in the UK. Then think of May, Grayling, Corbyn and Burgon. Tell me that a system that puts them in charge isn’t broken. There is no way to fix it. Over a hundred years of decline hints at a problem.
    Sortition is the answer. Surely we'll come to it in the end.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    The EU want a ‘Labour Brexit’ because it is in their macroeconomic interests to see have a customs union.

    Given our massive trade deficit and service based economy, there is little evidence that is in our interests.

    Well, obviously it is less good than being in the EU,but Labour's people's Brexit at least keeps many of the best features of being in the EU.

    It also stands a decent chance of being passed by the Commons, and being supported by the EU.
    Why leave - better to remain
    Applies to all possible Brexit outcomes. We’ve known that for a while.
    It's a matter of opinion.

    Remaining in this organisation is my idea of hell.
    Indeed you’ve been clear on that for some time, but it’s the least damaging option now.

    I can’t see why everyone puts their faith in Westminster/Whitehall, it’s barely functional.
    We can kick them out.
    Only some of them. It’s broken beyond repair.
    That's an easy way out, to just assume there's no repair.
    It’s not a cop out. It’s realism. Think of all the amazing talented good people in the UK. Then think of May, Grayling, Corbyn and Burgon. Tell me that a system that puts them in charge isn’t broken. There is no way to fix it. Over a hundred years of decline hints at a problem.
    I'm not disputing the problem bit. I'm not even saying I know how to fix it or that it would be easy or be guaranteed of success. But it still doesn't follow that it is not possible to fix it.
    Empirical evidence suggests it is unreformable. It will take a catastrophe to fix it IMO. I am not sure that’s really what we want. So they can keep shouting and getting dumber with each generation and the decline will continue.
  • sladeslade Posts: 722
    To further muddy the pond there is an Aspire gain from Labour in Tower Hamlets. Ah, the complexities of Bangadeshi politics.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 17,984
    dots said:

    dots said:


    Totally agree. But they have never defined what they really are proposing have they? It’s shocking they have been allowed to get away with that. And the easiest way for them to do that would be to use THE customs union as starting point and explain what’s different. Until they do that its not nailed down as the lunacy you described, its the unicorn with the implication it makes a deal fly, such as Tusks jibe today. That was my point.

    I was under the impression that being in 'The' Customs Union long term was impossible for any country not in the EU as its basic operations are defined by EU treaty (unlike the Single Market which is covered by the separate EEA Treaty)
    So you think there are some nice bits to the current CU membership?

    removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members? That’s got to be helpful? Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs? From a manufacturing point of view, that’s got to be very helpful to us? Also it solves the problem of trade deflection, when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided. It wouldn’t be nice competing against The EU CU all around us would it, so its not just the being out, its the battle plan to be at constant war with the CU and all that will entail for our manufacturing in particular. That’s a consideration?
    I think it is better than being in 'A' customs union for the reasons I set out. I don't think it is better than being outside both though no. It is not just the ability to make ones own trade deals that is curtailed by membership of the Customs Union. It is also the right to sit on and vote in many of the organisations which set standards around the world and within which we have ceded our voice to the EU.

    So no I do not think being in any form of Customs Union with the EU is desirable. It is the reason the EFTA countries have considered it a step too far.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 19,136


    Well they can if they're independent.

    Ditto if Scotland wants true self-governance it can go independent. If its happy to let England choose the PM most of the time they can stay part of the union.

    Sure, they can do that, but that's a different thing.
    No, it's not. That was the entire logic of Vote Leave, Take Control.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,852
    slade said:

    slade said:

    Here in Mexico but following UK local elections! Big wins for Lib Dems in Wokingham and Bradford. Suspended Lab candidate elected in Totteridge.

    Labour hold in Lambeth but big Lib Dem surge.
    The by election was caused by the Lambeth chief whip stepping down to take a well paid politically restricted job. The council leader Lib Peck has also just stood down to well paid job with the Mayor at City Hall - so they will have to turn out again soon to replace her!

    Perhaps local voters are a bit non plussed that two of the 3 Labour councillors they elected less than 9 months ago for another 4 year term have quit.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,801

    Nigelb said:

    <
    Wit the rather significant difference that it is almost impossible for the UK electorate on its own to throw out a European administration.

    Obviously 13% of the electorate can't throw out the administration on its own, democratically that would definitely be a bug not a feature...
    Well they can if they're independent.

    Ditto if Scotland wants true self-governance it can go independent. If its happy to let England choose the PM most of the time they can stay part of the union.
    Unless you secretly have mind control over tens of millions of English people your PM gets chosen for you by others just as much as Scottish people's do.

    No area with Scotland's population controls the countries direction whether part of England or not. If a majority of seats go to one party then it doesn't matter who wins more seats in England or who gets more votes in England. Scotland with its close to 60 seats gets to decide who runs the country if the rest of the country runs up a less than 60 seat deficit between the two parties, which is the same as any other area with a similar amount of seats.



This discussion has been closed.