I've no sympathy with this anger and hatred. It's not constructive and it's not necessary. It's all just another form of the "othering" that Leave backers are routinely accused of (sometimes justly, often not) with respect to immigrants.
orked.
At root, Brexit is a class issue. The 2016 referendum was possibly the first major vote since 1945 in which the majority of the working class voted one way, the majority of the middle class voted the other, and the working class side of the argument won a decisive victory. Everything that has gone on since has been the product of one long temper-tantrum by an awful lot of well-to-do types who find that they have been thwarted, and that they are being made to give up something important to them for the first time in their entire lives - and their hate-driven response to these circumstances. It really has to stop.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Thanks to people like you, and the extreme Brexiters on the other side, it's never going to end. You've all whipped up hatred and deepened the chasm between the well off and the majority of the voters that aren't doing so well. Whether we leave or not, your legacy is going be that you didn't do enough to bring the poor and marginalised along with you and only offered insults and derision once the decision didn't go your way. There should have been away to leave the EU that didn't end like this, but your gang and the Brexiteers never really put their back into it. You share the blame. You never put the work in. You were happy for things to tick along nicely for you, from your nice homes in London and Hungary. Now all you do is bleat and cry about London with only scorn for the parts of the country that you despise. Own what you and your ilk have done.
There was never a good outcome. Those erstwhile Remainers who have tried to ameliorate the disaster have been constantly abused by the cultists for their pains. The disaster is entirely Leave-created.
One mistake in David's article is not to distinguish between the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration. Both "May's deal" and "A different deal" still involve the same withdrawal agreement, but the EU have been very open to rewriting the political declaration.
Well, that might be because when it comes to implementing the political declaration, the EU considers it will have the UK exactly where it wants it under the WA....
Which is why, when May's Shit Deal gets through Parliament, we will need a new PM who is not afraid to say they will walk away from May's Shit Deal, if that is the right thing to do for the country.
I've no sympathy with this anger and hatred. It's not constructive and it's not necessary. It's all just another form of the "othering" that Leave backers are routinely accused of (sometimes justly, often not) with respect to immigrants.
orked.
At root, Brexit is a class issue. The 2016 referendum was possibly the first major vote since 1945 in which the majority of the working class voted one way, the majority of the middle class voted the other, and the working class side of the argument won a decisive victory. Everything that has gone on since has been the product of one long temper-tantrum by an awful lot of well-to-do types who find that they have been thwarted, and that they are being made to give up something important to them for the first time in their entire lives - and their hate-driven response to these circumstances. It really has to stop.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Thanks to people like you, and the extreme Brexiters on the other side, it's never going to end. You've all whipped up hatred and deepened the chasm between the well off and the majority of the voters that aren't doing so well. Whether we leave or not, your legacy is going be that you didn't do enough to bring the poor and marginalised along with you and only offered insults and derision once the decision didn't go your way. There should have been away to leave the EU that didn't end like this, but your gang and the Brexiteers never really put their back into it. You share the blame. You never put the work in. You were happy for things to tick along nicely for you, from your nice homes in London and Hungary. Now all you do is bleat and cry about London with only scorn for the parts of the country that you despise. Own what you and your ilk have done.
There was never a good outcome. Those erstwhile Remainers who have tried to ameliorate the disaster have been constantly abused by the cultists for their pains. The disaster is entirely Leave-created.
The pessimism about the UK's prospects is being massively overdone by those who think leaving the EU for a looser arrangement is somehow turning our back on the world or condemning us to parochial insignificance.
4 of the top 10 Universities in the world are in the UK. If you keep looking down that list you will eventually find, at number 50, the first University in the EU after we leave, the Universite PSL in Paris. We have 8 with more bubbling under that top 50.
Our economy is dependent on services which have consistently grown faster than manufacturing in most developed countries. We are well placed to continue to grow faster than western EU countries as we have done since 2008.
This live in.
We have problems, of course we do, but so does everyone else and we are much better placed than most. The doomsters have lost all sense of perspective and need to get a grip. I read posters saying that they are ashamed to be British and I am frankly bewildered. We are so lucky to live here.
We are about to make it a whole lot harder for our world class universities to recruit the world's best post-graduate talent - that will be particularly felt on the R&D side. In the same way, we are going to be putting our thriving tech start-up community under increasing strain. Brexit was never a great idea economically, but the clusterfuck it has become - thanks largely to May's red lines on freedom of movement and the CJEU - will mean it will do way more harm than it needed to. We have spent two and a half years telling foreign people they are not welcome in our country. The ones who will hear that loudest and clearest are the ones we most want to attract.
That assumes the world's best post graduate talent is all in the EU - which is clearly ludicrous. This is another one of those Remainer myths like the one about the majority of those Britons who work overseas doing so in the EU. It is simply not true, by a very, very long way.
No, it assumes some of it is. It will now be harder to attract that talent to the UK; and as we are not making it easier to attract it from elsewhere the net result is a loss.
No it won't be harder. Given that not one of the top 49 universities that produce postgraduate talent are in the EU post Brexit I think its obvious that if we want the best talent we seek it globally and not in our parochial continent alone.
"The hate mainly comes from Leavers." "Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse."
Alastair, do you see the contradiction here? The latter statement condemns most of England and Wales outside the big cities, and the 2016 vote as an irrational 'impulse'.
As for 'reactionary', the most reactionary behaviour has come from Remainers who regret that ordinary people including Northerners and those without degrees were allowed to vote on an important issue. I honestly think some of them would repeal the Representation of the People Act if given the chance.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
It is because we are a brilliant country with an absurdly internationally dominant legal system that is respected world wide for its integrity and predictability, the leading international centre for international financial services, a stable if somewhat overly consumption driven economy, a rapidly growing IT sector, very low crime rates and a basic decency which, along with English, makes us a place very, very large numbers of people aspire to live in.
Underpinned by 40 years membership of the EU.
Which we are in the process of torching...
None of what David mentioned was in any way underpinned by our membership of the EU. You are deluded.
Freedom of movement has been hugely beneficial to both our university and tech sectors. In fact, it is hard to think of an area where the UK is world class that has not benefited from it.
From the Higher Education Statistical Agency.
In 2016-17 the postgraduate student numbers in the UK were as follows:
148,000 UK nationals 142,000 non EU national 46,000 EU nationals
EU nationals make up 14% of our postgraduate cadre. Non EU nationals make up 42%.
Nor does anyone expect post Brexit that it will be significantly harder for EU nationals to come and study or do research. This is another of those Remainer myths.
As a Londoner born and bred I have a lot of sympathy with that. I’d only note that many of the most dynamic parts of England - Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, Brighton, Norwich, Oxford, Cambridge, Leamington (!!) - are pretty much on the same page. Leave voting England is utterly dependent on Remain voting England. It’s very much like the red and blue states in the US.
Actually Remain voting England - being mostly concentrated in the urban wastelands - is utterly dependent on Leave voting England for all its basic necessities. If and when civilisation collapses you can be sure Lincolnshire will fare far better than London.
The different parts of the country depend on each other.
Not sure why politicians keep peddling the line Brexit was a cry for help from communities left behind .
This desperate attempt to legitimize this act of self harm and place laudable principles on it just wants to avoid the uncomfortable truth .
The UK has some of the thickest and most uninformed voters in the western world who like drones followed the garbage spewed by the right wing media .
Another one for the #peoplesvote campaign posters...
The contempt you have for democracy is just sickening.
I don’t want another EU referendum ! I expected a sensible sane exit but the ERG nutjobs are refusing to compromise.
And I stand by my comments . As can be highlighted by the stupid couple on Channel 4 who voted Leave and are now whining about losing freedom of movement !
I've no sympathy with this anger and hatred. It's not constructive and it's not necessary. It's all just another form of the "othering" that Leave backers are routinely accused of (sometimes justly, often not) with respect to immigrants.
orked.
At root, Brexit is a class issue. The 2016 referendum was possibly the first major vote since 1945 in which the majority of the working class voted one way, the majority of the middle class voted the other, and the working class side of the argument won a decisive victory. Everything that has gone on since has been the product of one long temper-tantrum by an awful lot of well-to-do types who find that they have been thwarted, and that they are being made to give up something important to them for the first time in their entire lives - and their hate-driven response to these circumstances. It really has to stop.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Thanks to people like you, and the extreme Brexiters on the other side, it's never going to end. You've all whipped up hatred and deepened the chasm between the well off and the majority of the voters that aren't doing so well. Whether we leave or not, your legacy is going be that you didn't do enough to bring the poor and marginalised along with you and only offered insults and derision once the decision didn't go your way. There should have been away to leave the EU that didn't end like this, but your gang and the Brexiteers never really put their back into it. You share the blame. You never put the work in. You were happy for things to tick along nicely for you, from your nice homes in London and Hungary. Now all you do is bleat and cry about London with only scorn for the parts of the country that you despise. Own what you and your ilk have done.
There was never a good outcome. Those erstwhile Remainers who have tried to ameliorate the disaster have been constantly abused by the cultists for their pains. The disaster is entirely Leave-created.
It's always someone else's fault.
Theresa May’s, Philip Hammond’s, Amber Rudd’s, Mark Carney’s... never Leavers’.
One mistake in David's article is not to distinguish between the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration. Both "May's deal" and "A different deal" still involve the same withdrawal agreement, but the EU have been very open to rewriting the political declaration.
Well, that might be because when it comes to implementing the political declaration, the EU considers it will have the UK exactly where it wants it under the WA....
Which is why, when May's Shit Deal gets through Parliament, we will need a new PM who is not afraid to say they will walk away from May's Shit Deal, if that is the right thing to do for the country.
Not being afraid to say it is not the same as being willing and able to do it.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
It is because we are a brilliant country with an absurdly internationally dominant legal system that is respected world wide for its integrity and predictability, the leading international centre for international financial services, a stable if somewhat overly consumption driven economy, a rapidly growing IT sector, very low crime rates and a basic decency which, along with English, makes us a place very, very large numbers of people aspire to live in.
Underpinned by 40 years membership of the EU.
Which we are in the process of torching...
It is not underpinned by the EU membership Scott. We had those strengths and characteristics before. Was the EU a net gain? Possibly, especially in the first couple of decades but it is peripheral. We will still be a great country to live in once we have left the EU.
The UK's universities suffered a huge brain drain in the 70s and 80s.
You mean when we were in the EU and had freedom of movement?
Maastricht introduced freedom of movement in its current form.
As William regularly points out (you see I do listen Mr Glenn) Freedom of movement - including freedom to study - were part of the original Treaty of Rome in 1957. It has existed ever since we joined the EU.
One mistake in David's article is not to distinguish between the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration. Both "May's deal" and "A different deal" still involve the same withdrawal agreement, but the EU have been very open to rewriting the political declaration.
Its not a mistake. The political declaration is non binding fluff that is y the EU are very open to rewriting it.
As I and many others have observed, too many Remain fanatics only like democracy when they are winning.
Brexit is not a "win" for those that voted Leave
It will be for a lot of already very wealthy hedge fund managers and their investors. People like Jacob Rees Mogg and Jon Redwood will also make a mint out of it. On top of that, a lot of people whose livelihoods will not be affected - the pensioners who voted Leave in their droves, for example - will also feel very good about it (as long as they do not want to retire to the sun for a part or all of the year). And, finally, the small number of people - hugely over-represented on PB - who really did see the vote as being about sovereignty will be delighted, too, at least at the start.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
The pessimism about the UK's prospects is being massively overdone by those who think leaving the EU for a looser arrangement is somehow turning our back on the world or condemning us to parochial insignificance.
4 of the top 10 Universities in the world are in the UK. If you keep looking down that list you will eventually find, at number 50, the first University in the EU after we leave, the Universite PSL in Paris. We have 8 with more bubbling under that top 50.
Our economy is dependent on services which have consistently grown faster than manufacturing in most developed countries. We are well placed to continue to grow faster than western EU countries as we have done since 2008.
This isn't because of Brexit which is a peripheral issue. It is because we are a brilliant country with an absurdly internationally dominant legal system that is respected world wide for its integrity and predictability, the leading international centre for international financial services, a stable if somewhat overly consumption driven economy, a rapidly growing IT sector, very low crime rates and a basic decency which, along with English, makes us a place very, very large numbers of people aspire to live in.
We have problems, of course we do, but so does everyone else and we are much better placed than most. The doomsters have lost all sense of perspective and need to get a grip. I read posters saying that they are ashamed to be British and I am frankly bewildered. We are so lucky to live here.
I may be misremebering, but I believe on a very small number of occasions you may have expressed your displeasure with the education system, economy and general governance of Scotland. I presume the 'brilliant country' to which you're referring is England.
I've no sympathy with this anger and hatred. It's not constructive and it's not necessary. It's all just another form of the "othering" that Leave backers are routinely accused of (sometimes justly, often not) with respect to immigrants.
orked.
At root, Brexit is a class issue. The 2016 referendum was possibly the first major vote since 1945 in which the majority of the working class voted one way, the majority of the middle class voted the other, and the working class side of the argument won a decisive victory. Everything that has gone on since has been the product of one long temper-tantrum by an awful lot of well-to-do types who find that they have been thwarted, and that they are being made to give up something important to them for the first time in their entire lives - and their hate-driven response to these circumstances. It really has to stop.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Thanks to people like you, and the extreme Brexiters on the other side, it's never going to end. You've all whipped up hatred and deepened the chasm between the well off and the majority of the voters that aren't doing so well. Whether we leave or not, your legacy is going be that you didn't do enough to bring the poor and marginalised along with you and only offered insults and derision once the decision didn't go your way. There should have been away to leave the EU that didn't end like this, but your gang and the Brexiteers never really put their back into it. You share the blame. You never put the work in. You were happy for things to tick along nicely for you, from your nice homes in London and Hungary. Now all you do is bleat and cry about London with only scorn for the parts of the country that you despise. Own what you and your ilk have done.
There was never a good outcome. Those erstwhile Remainers who have tried to ameliorate the disaster have been constantly abused by the cultists for their pains. The disaster is entirely Leave-created.
It's always someone else's fault.
Theresa May’s, Philip Hammond’s, Amber Rudd’s, Mark Carney’s... never Leavers’.
You, me, Johnson, Gove, Geldof, Miller, Farrage, Junker, Tusk. Dyson. The list goes on.....
In 1976, a professor of economic history at the University of California, Berkeley published an essay outlining the fundamental laws of a force he perceived as humanity’s greatest existential threat: Stupidity.
Law 1: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
Law 2: The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
Law 3. A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Law 4: Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
Law 5: A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
An interesting point. I suppose by and large we hope their minds don't contain such poison.
As I and many others have observed, too many Remain fanatics only like democracy when they are winning.
Brexit is not a "win" for those that voted Leave
It will be for a lot of already very wealthy hedge fund managers and their investors. People like Jacob Rees Mogg and Jon Redwood will also make a mint out of it. On top of that, a lot of people whose livelihoods will not be affected - the pensioners who voted Leave in their droves, for example - will also feel very good about it (as long as they do not want to retire to the sun for a part or all of the year). And, finally, the small number of people - hugely over-represented on PB - who really did see the vote as being about sovereignty will be delighted, too, at least at the start.
I am an OAP. I am by no means confident that all will be well for my wife and myself after Brexit, and furthermore I am very concerned that my teenage grandchildren;dren will have their options restricted as a result.
It is because we are a brilliant country with an absurdly internationally dominant legal system that is respected world wide for its integrity and predictability, the leading international centre for international financial services, a stable if somewhat overly consumption driven economy, a rapidly growing IT sector, very low crime rates and a basic decency which, along with English, makes us a place very, very large numbers of people aspire to live in.
Underpinned by 40 years membership of the EU.
Which we are in the process of torching...
It is not underpinned by the EU membership Scott. We had those strengths and characteristics before. Was the EU a net gain? Possibly, especially in the first couple of decades but it is peripheral. We will still be a great country to live in once we have left the EU.
The UK's universities suffered a huge brain drain in the 70s and 80s.
You mean when we were in the EU and had freedom of movement?
Maastricht introduced freedom of movement in its current form.
As William regularly points out (you see I do listen Mr Glenn) Freedom of movement - including freedom to study - were part of the original Treaty of Rome in 1957. It has existed ever since we joined the EU.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Thanks to people like you, and the extreme Brexiters on the other side, it's never going to end. You've all whipped up hatred and deepened the chasm between the well off and the majority of the voters that aren't doing so well. Whether we leave or not, your legacy is going be that you didn't do enough to bring the poor and marginalised along with you and only offered insults and derision once the decision didn't go your way. There should have been away to leave the EU that didn't end like this, but your gang and the Brexiteers never really put their back into it. You share the blame. You never put the work in. You were happy for things to tick along nicely for you, from your nice homes in London and Hungary. Now all you do is bleat and cry about London with only scorn for the parts of the country that you despise. Own what you and your ilk have done.
There was never a good outcome. Those erstwhile Remainers who have tried to ameliorate the disaster have been constantly abused by the cultists for their pains. The disaster is entirely Leave-created.
It's always someone else's fault.
Theresa May’s, Philip Hammond’s, Amber Rudd’s, Mark Carney’s... never Leavers’.
You, me, Johnson, Gove, Geldof, Miller, Farrage, Junker, Tusk. Dyson. The list goes on.....
You can take me off the list. I want no part of this enterprise. It’s a fools’ errand. I’m not in the business of implementing really bad ideas.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
Tusk was pointing put the folly of holding a referendum, a mistake the EU would never make. Tusk, a man whose country has emigrated to the UK at the first chance it got. Nice, Catholic lads though they may be.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
An interesting point. I suppose by and large we hope their minds don't contain such poison.
The living saints doctrine.
In due course we shall be expected to subscribe to the idea that Brexit was an immaculate conception.
Given how it is turning out, there won’t be many rushing to claim paternity rights.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Thanks to people like you, and the extreme Brexiters on the other side, it's never going to end. You've all whipped up hatred and deepened the chasm between the well off and the majority of the voters that aren't doing so well. Whether we leave or not, your legacy is going be that you didn't do enough to bring the poor and marginalised along with you and only offered insults and derision once the decision didn't go your way. There should have been away to leave the EU that didn't end like this, but your gang and the Brexiteers never really put their back into it. You share the blame. You never put the work in. You were happy for things to tick along nicely for you, from your nice homes in London and Hungary. Now all you do is bleat and cry about London with only scorn for the parts of the country that you despise. Own what you and your ilk have done.
There was never a good outcome. Those erstwhile Remainers who have tried to ameliorate the disaster have been constantly abused by the cultists for their pains. The disaster is entirely Leave-created.
It's always someone else's fault.
Theresa May’s, Philip Hammond’s, Amber Rudd’s, Mark Carney’s... never Leavers’.
You, me, Johnson, Gove, Geldof, Miller, Farrage, Junker, Tusk. Dyson. The list goes on.....
You can take me off the list. I want no part of this enterprise. It’s a fools’ errand. I’m not in the business of implementing really bad ideas.
You don't get to choose. You're as culpable as the rest of us.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
"At root, Brexit is a class issue," Black Rook posts down the thread.
I agree. It is. In voting to Leave and in winning the day the working class put one over on the middle class. The assertion is simplistic (as any single statement about Brexit is bound to be) but is no less true for that.
So, yes, it was a triumph of salt of the earths over their social betters.
Does this make it good? Normally I would say yes. It would be hats off. In this case, however, the hat stays very much on. It is not good. It is bad.
Why? Because (i) the people driving the idea of Brexit are wealthy reactionaries and careerists who have no interest whatsoever in improving the lot of the common man; and (ii) the reality of Brexit once delivered will equally do nothing whatsoever to improve that lot, more likely will do the opposite.
If we are going to attempt a sentence to sum up Brexit, I prefer this one -
Brexit is, at heart, an exploitation of the plebs by the knobs the principal objective of which is to make the knobs even knobbier.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Thanks to people like you, and the extreme Brexiters on the other side, it's never going to end. You've all whipped up hatred and deepened the chasm between the well off and the majority of the voters that aren't doing so well. Whether we leave or not, your legacy is going be that you didn't do enough to bring the poor and marginalised along with you and only offered insults and derision once the decision didn't go your way. There should have been away to leave the EU that didn't end like this, but your gang and the Brexiteers never really put their back into it. You share the blame. You never put the work in. You were happy for things to tick along nicely for you, from your nice homes in London and Hungary. Now all you do is bleat and cry about London with only scorn for the parts of the country that you despise. Own what you and your ilk have done.
There was never a good outcome. Those erstwhile Remainers who have tried to ameliorate the disaster have been constantly abused by the cultists for their pains. The disaster is entirely Leave-created.
It's always someone else's fault.
Theresa May’s, Philip Hammond’s, Amber Rudd’s, Mark Carney’s... never Leavers’.
You, me, Johnson, Gove, Geldof, Miller, Farrage, Junker, Tusk. Dyson. The list goes on.....
You can take me off the list. I want no part of this enterprise. It’s a fools’ errand. I’m not in the business of implementing really bad ideas.
You don't get to choose. You're as culpable as the rest of us.
I didn’t choose Brexit. It’s not my job to make a malign idea work.
While agreeing that a second referendum is unlikely, having one with a three-way option would create a major difficulty of which I know you're well aware.
Choose between a Hard Leave, May's Leave, and Remain. Let's say the voting was 30%, 25%, and 45%.
Remain is declared the winner even though the majority wanted a variety of Leave. This despite the Remainers being in a minority in two consecutive referenda. There is a lot of anger around at the moment, and people are both fed-up and suspicious. Having the result gerrymandered so obviously isn't a solution.
I suspect a lot of murky water will run under the bridge in the next six weeks but with neither the EU or the UK wanting a no-deal, it will get murkier as we near April.
I don't think parliament would accept that format. A 3-way referendum would almost certainly be conducted either by AV or on a 2-question format.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The r want to get angry.
Well my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
An interesting point. I suppose by and large we hope their minds don't contain such poison.
I do not think it is unreasonable to have very negative views about people who advocated for something they had no idea how to implement and which has caused huge problems for close to three years and will continue to do so for many more to come. The leaders of the Leave campaigns have caused massive damage largely because they were utterly clueless about how to do what they said was so imperative. They could never be bothered to do the hard work and that's their fault, no-one else's. Calling them out for it is entirely reasonable. If Tusk had been talking about Leave voters then that would be different. But he clearly wasn't.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
Care to comment on the rhetoric of the ERG with regards to the EU?
Sure. Where Nazi or USSR comparisons or similarly nasty comments are made they're wrong and inappropriate. You're the one actively endorsing the most toxic rhetoric from your own side.
"At root, Brexit is a class issue," Black Rook posts down the thread.
I agree. It is. In voting to Leave and in winning the day the working class put one over on the middle class. The assertion is simplistic (as any single statement about Brexit is bound to be) but is no less true for that.
So, yes, it was a triumph of salt of the earths over their social betters.
Does this make it good? Normally I would say yes. It would be hats off. In this case, however, the hat stays very much on. It is not good. It is bad.
Why? Because (i) the people driving the idea of Brexit are wealthy reactionaries and careerists who have no interest whatsoever in improving the lot of the common man; and (ii) the reality of Brexit once delivered will equally do nothing whatsoever to improve that lot, more likely will do the opposite.
If we are going to attempt a sentence to sum up Brexit, I prefer this one -
Brexit is, at heart, an exploitation of the plebs by the knobs the principal objective of which is to make the knobs even knobbier.
As I and many others have observed, too many Remain fanatics only like democracy when they are winning.
Brexit is not a "win" for those that voted Leave
It will be for a lot of already very wealthy hedge fund managers and their investors. People like Jacob Rees Mogg and Jon Redwood will also make a mint out of it. On top of that, a lot of people whose livelihoods will not be affected - the pensioners who voted Leave in their droves, for example - will also feel very good about it (as long as they do not want to retire to the sun for a part or all of the year). And, finally, the small number of people - hugely over-represented on PB - who really did see the vote as being about sovereignty will be delighted, too, at least at the start.
I am an OAP. I am by no means confident that all will be well for my wife and myself after Brexit, and furthermore I am very concerned that my teenage grandchildren;dren will have their options restricted as a result.
I have taken the view for a while that it will be a No Deal exit, largely because of stupidity, obstinacy, the general cock-up theory of life, cowardice.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave. The reverse has happened. Their behaviour is a real example of failure to reconsider in the light of new evidence (no doubt Scott will be along shortly to prove my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
Being misled does not imply stupidity. It implies being lied to.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for Leave.
“
The r want to get angry.
Well my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
An interesting point. I suppose by and large we hope their minds don't contain such poison.
I do not think it is unreasonable to have very negative views about people who advocated for something they had no idea how to implement and which has caused huge problems for close to three years and will continue to do so for many more to come. The leaders of the Leave campaigns have caused massive damage largely because they were utterly clueless about how to do what they said was so imperative. They could never be bothered to do the hard work and that's their fault, no-one else's. Calling them out for it is entirely reasonable. If Tusk had been talking about Leave voters then that would be different. But he clearly wasn't.
i agree with that, but you can blame pretty much the whole of the political class. Their heart was never really in it, and some have actively worked to make it fail. It didn't help that the Tories were in charge of it, though.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
You say bumbling but they are close to getting what they sought. And you keep using the word Buccaneers as if it's an insult. It's not.
A.global Buccaneering Britain has a better future than a sclerotic and parochial Europe.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
Being misled does not imply stupidity. It implies being lied to.
Like when we were promised a referendum on the EU Constitution? Aka Lisbon Treaty.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
You say bumbling but they are close to getting what they sought. And you keep using the word Buccaneers as if it's an insult. It's not.
A.global Buccaneering Britain has a better future than a sclerotic and parochial Europe.
I am not sure the Bumbling Buccaneers really were seeking a No Deal Brexit, but if they were it would have been nice if they could have told us. They obviously were not seeking the deal Mrs May has done because they voted against it.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only
As for Leave.
“
The r want to get angry.
Well my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
An interesting point. I suppose by and large we hope their minds don't contain such poison.
I do not think it is unreasonable to have very negative views about people who advocated for something they had no idea how to implement and which has caused huge problems for close to three years and will continue to do so for many more to come. The leaders of the Leave campaigns have caused massive damage largely because they were utterly clueless about how to do what they said was so imperative. They could never be bothered to do the hard work and that's their fault, no-one else's. Calling them out for it is entirely reasonable. If Tusk had been talking about Leave voters then that would be different. But he clearly wasn't.
i agree with that, but you can blame pretty much the whole of the political class. Their heart was never really in it, and some have actively worked to make it fail. It didn't help that the Tories were in charge of it, though.
Between them, the government and the EU have made a worse job of things than I expected, back in 2016. But, I'd still vote the same way.
In 1976, a professor of economic history at the University of California, Berkeley published an essay outlining the fundamental laws of a force he perceived as humanity’s greatest existential threat: Stupidity.
Law 1: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
Law 2: The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
Law 3. A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Law 4: Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
Law 5: A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well my point!).
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
Being misled does not imply stupidity. It implies being lied to.
Like when we were promised a referendum on the EU Constitution? Aka Lisbon Treaty.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
Tusk's comments were entirely inappropriate and totally ill advised and have very probably increased the chances of a No Deal Brexit.
The only reason you're defending them is you agree with him, and like the cut of his jib.
Had similar comments been made the other way round by May, Hunt or Barclay you'd have been amongst the first on here to condemn them.
It is because we are a brilliant country with an absurdly internationally dominant legal system that is respected world wide for its integrity and predictability, the leading international centre for international financial services, a stable if somewhat overly consumption driven economy, a rapidly growing IT sector, very low crime rates and a basic decency which, along with English, makes us a place very, very large numbers of people aspire to live in.
Underpinned by 40 years membership of the EU.
Which we are in the process of torching...
It is not underpinned by the EU membership Scott. We had those strengths and characteristics before. Was the EU a net gain? Possibly, especially in the first couple of decades but it is peripheral. We will still be a great country to live in once we have left the EU.
The UK's universities suffered a huge brain drain in the 70s and 80s.
You mean after we joined Europe??
Our arrangements with Europe have changed enormously since the 80s and 90s. If you were taxed in the UK you needed forms which could be quite complicated. In Southern Ireland you were obliged to work with a fully Irish crew and the only way I as a director could work there was to have evidence that I had abilities not avaiable in their local population. All these things don't exist anymore and haven't since the late 90s as things became more integrated but they will for certain be reinroduced if and when we leave.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
It was a deliberate insult to all Leave voters that was heard loud and clear.
As I and many others have observed, too many Remain fanatics only like democracy when they are winning.
Brexit is not a "win" for those that voted Leave
It will be for a lot of already very wealthy hedge fund managers and their investors. People like Jacob Rees Mogg and Jon Redwood will also make a mint out of it. On top of that, a lot of people whose livelihoods will not be affected - the pensioners who voted Leave in their droves, for example - will also feel very good about it (as long as they do not want to retire to the sun for a part or all of the year). And, finally, the small number of people - hugely over-represented on PB - who really did see the vote as being about sovereignty will be delighted, too, at least at the start.
I am an OAP. I am by no means confident that all will be well for my wife and myself after Brexit, and furthermore I am very concerned that my teenage grandchildren;dren will have their options restricted as a result.
I suspect you did not vote Leave, though.
I certainly didn't. As I've posted here before, ever since I actually went 'abroad' at about 16 I've been convinced that our future lies in close co-operation with our neighbours. I wasn't though convinced that enlarging the EU to include the former Communist counties was a good idea, and certainly not those who over a period of about three generations had moved from Ottoman rule to Communist to 'democratic''.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
It was a deliberate insult to all Leave voters that was heard loud and clear.
Tusk, so far as I could understand, set out to attacked the Leaders of the Leave campaign, particularly those who were promising unicorns and free money. Not the voters.
Did they all vote in favour of the WA? If not then they missed their chance of avoiding a 'no deal' Brxit. Let's be honest - they want 'no Brexit' - the word 'deal' doesn't matter.
I wonder whether this may be quite a likely outcome: No Deal followed by the resurrection of the Deal as an emergency measure (obviously with whatever legal changes need to be made for it to be adopted post facto).
I think that has already been ruled out. Legally it wouldn't work.
Sorry, I don't understand that. No doubt some of the legal aspects would be different, but in practical terms if both parties want to make that arrangement they can, can't they? We're not talking about the UK reverting to membership after Brexit, after all. We're talking about the temporary relationship in the next few years, until long-term arrangements have been negotiated.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
It was a deliberate insult to all Leave voters that was heard loud and clear.
As I say, a dog whistle. People like Caroline Lucas and Anna Soubry cheered it because, as elected politicians, they have to bite their tongue rather than say that sort of thing. In Tusk's position there's nothing to stop the hatred from flowing.
As a Londoner born and bred I have a lot of sympathy with that. I’d only note that many of the most dynamic parts of England - Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, Brighton, Norwich, Oxford, Cambridge, Leamington (!!) - are pretty much on the same page. Leave voting England is utterly dependent on Remain voting England. It’s very much like the red and blue states in the US.
I've no sympathy with this anger and hatred. It's not constructive and it's not necessary. It's all just another form of the "othering" that Leave backers are routinely accused of (sometimes justly, often not) with respect to immigrants.
The basic message seems to be "the poor are ungrateful for our money, let's leave them to die." Which is all a very convenient way of avoiding the underlying question of whether the poor might not have been poor if the settlement of recent decades that has so benefited wealthy middle-class (and, entirely uncoincidentally, Remain-leaning areas) actually worked.
At root, Brexit is a class issue. The 2016 referendum was possibly the first major vote since 1945 in which the majority of the working class voted one way, the majority of the middle class voted the other, and the working class side of the argument won a decisive victory. Everything that has gone on since has been the product of one long temper-tantrum by an awful lot of well-to-do types who find that they have been thwarted, and that they are being made to give up something important to them for the first time in their entire lives - and their hate-driven response to these circumstances. It really has to stop.
The hate comes mainly from Leavers. The whole Leave campaign was constructed around whipping up unfounded fear of foreigners. Since then the accusations of treachery, saboteurs, traitors, enemies of the people, mutiny have been constant. The EU is routinely compared with Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Leave is a reactionary provincial impulse. It is an unmitigatable disaster. The only question is when it ends.
Maybe, just maybe, if the EU hadn't foisted continual ever closer union on us without our consent - continually adopting the symbols of statehood, advocating a European state and identity, substituting its flag for our own, and ignoring any vote against such moves - things would be different. But they aren't, so here we are.
You want to know why there's so much distrust and emotion on the Leave side?
Sorry, I don't understand that. No doubt some of the legal aspects would be different, but in practical terms if both parties want to make that arrangement they can, can't they? We're not talking about the UK reverting to membership after Brexit, after all. We're talking about the temporary relationship in the next few years, until long-term arrangements have been negotiated.
Without the deal, legal agreements expire when we leave.
They can't be unexpired. Everything would need to be new from then on.
Did they all vote in favour of the WA? If not then they missed their chance of avoiding a 'no deal' Brxit. Let's be honest - they want 'no Brexit' - the word 'deal' doesn't matter.
After what happened last week, I'm gong to believe "Parliament taking control of Brexit" when it happens, and not before.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As ffor Leave.
“Some Leavers”. shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
Tusk's comments were entirely inappropriate and totally ill advised and have very probably increased the chances of a No Deal Brexit.
The only reason you're defending them is you agree with him, and like the cut of his jib.
Had similar comments been made the other way round by May, Hunt or Barclay you'd have been amongst the first on here to condemn them.
Yes, I agree with him 100%. The Bumbling Buccaneers were and are utterly clueless, and as a result they have set in train a process that will cause immense harm to the UK and the rest of Europe for a very long time, but the UK most of all. Did you hear the one about the Leave-backing cabinet minister who gave a £14 million ferry contract to a company that had no ferries?
And it is true that I also condemned Hunt when he likened the EU to a Soviet prison, Johnson when he talked about it being akin to Nazi Germany and May when she attacked citizens of nowhere.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
It was a deliberate insult to all Leave voters that was heard loud and clear.
As I say, a dog whistle. People like Caroline Lucas and Anna Soubry cheered it because, as elected politicians, they have to bite their tongue rather than say that sort of thing. In Tusk's position there's nothing to stop the hatred from flowing.
The sentence was precise and fair comment. You just don’t like it because you feel attacked. Grow up. Other people are entitled to different opinions. There is abundant supporting evidence for this one.
Sorry, I don't understand that. No doubt some of the legal aspects would be different, but in practical terms if both parties want to make that arrangement they can, can't they? We're not talking about the UK reverting to membership after Brexit, after all. We're talking about the temporary relationship in the next few years, until long-term arrangements have been negotiated.
Without the deal, legal agreements expire when we leave.
They can't be unexpired. Everything would need to be new from then on.
To spell things out in words of as few syllables as possible yet again - obviously the legal aspects would have changed if Brexit had taken place. BUT if both parties want to "unexpire" the arrangements, no doubt they can do so. Why not?
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
It was a deliberate insult to all Leave voters that was heard loud and clear.
It was, an animal irrational impulse propelled primarily by emotion. The many claims of Leavers have been falsified by events but far from reconsidering in the light of new evidence they have become still more emotionally attached to the totem of Brexit. No sacrifice is too great to secure it. Of course it’s an irrational impulse.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
Tusk's comments were entirely inappropriate and totally ill advised and have very probably increased the chances of a No Deal Brexit.
The only reason you're defending them is you agree with him, and like the cut of his jib.
Had similar comments been made the other way round by May, Hunt or Barclay you'd have been amongst the first on here to condemn them.
After putting up with moronic stuff like this for years I'd call Tusks comments restrained
One mistake in David's article is not to distinguish between the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration. Both "May's deal" and "A different deal" still involve the same withdrawal agreement, but the EU have been very open to rewriting the political declaration.
Its not a mistake. The political declaration is non binding fluff that is y the EU are very open to rewriting it.
The actual brass tacks are all in the WA.
I suspect this will crop up again and again, so I'll have to deal with this now. In the 2009 Lisbon Ii referendum a declaration altering the deal was similarly attacked for being solely political. Yet it was eventually transposed unchangef into a treaty when one became available (when Croatia joined the EU IIRC). So there is precedent for their word being good on this.
It's political correctness gone mad. Tusk made the mistake of saying what he really thought about the Bumbling Buccaneers. We all pretend we want politicians to speak their minds. We absolutely hate it when they do.
You say bumbling but they are close to getting what they sought. And you keep using the word Buccaneers as if it's an insult. It's not.
A.global Buccaneering Britain has a better future than a sclerotic and parochial Europe.
But where is this buccaneering spirit of which you speak? I talk to a large cross section of people in a week and the current expectation of Brexit seems to range from it's a f***ing disaster to it might not be all that bad.
Not sure why politicians keep peddling the line Brexit was a cry for help from communities left behind .
This desperate attempt to legitimize this act of self harm and place laudable principles on it just wants to avoid the uncomfortable truth .
The UK has some of the thickest and most uninformed voters in the western world who like drones followed the garbage spewed by the right wing media .
Yes, I get a bit tired of this line as well - although I have more sympathy with it here on Brexit than I do with it in America on Trump. Perhaps because I don't view Brexit as being even nearly as bad a thing to vote for as Trump.
It is (quite literally) Political Correctness. A politician can never say bad things about voters. Or if they do - witness HRC's 'deplorables' - they get hammered for it.
So they have to invent faux concern about people being 'left behind' in order to 'understand' why they voted for something bad and stupid.
Left behind? Mmm. Perhaps. Or is it more an inability to come to terms with the loss of the god-given right of the white male blue collar American to a well paid job for life and a spot of hunting and wife beating at the weekend?
Tusk, so far as I could understand, set out to attacked the Leaders of the Leave campaign, particularly those who were promising unicorns and free money. Not the voters.
CR is dying to be offended, the facts of what Tusk actually said don't really matter.
"No deal" means "No deal on March 29th 2019" - there will be lots of deals after that - some no doubt will be pragmatic in that the working relationship with other EU countries will come under a 'Gentleman's agreement' - assuming the EU and UK still has gentlemen.
In fact the attitude of the EU to the UK post a no-deal Brexit will be a strong indicator as to whether they wish to regard us a a third party with whom they wish to trade to the mutual benefit of both, are 'stupid' or 'bandits' - as per the comment below.
Tusk, so far as I could understand, set out to attacked the Leaders of the Leave campaign, particularly those who were promising unicorns and free money. Not the voters.
CR is dying to be offended, the facts of what Tusk actually said don't really matter.
The time he got triggered by an anti-Brexit article in Ronnie Scott's was funny.
Tusk, so far as I could understand, set out to attacked the Leaders of the Leave campaign, particularly those who were promising unicorns and free money. Not the voters.
CR is dying to be offended, the facts of what Tusk actually said don't really matter.
Nonsense. I don't do synthetic outrage. It's sincere
Meanwhile Remainers are happy to take all sorts of imagined offence to things Brexiteers haven't said according to cliched caricatures of them.
In 1976, a professor of economic history at the University of California, Berkeley published an essay outlining the fundamental laws of a force he perceived as humanity’s greatest existential threat: Stupidity.
Law 1: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
Law 2: The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
Law 3. A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Law 4: Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
Law 5: A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.
Tusk, so far as I could understand, set out to attacked the Leaders of the Leave campaign, particularly those who were promising unicorns and free money. Not the voters.
CR is dying to be offended, the facts of what Tusk actually said don't really matter.
The time he got triggered by an anti-Brexit article in Ronnie Scott's was funny.
I wonder what mad name Farage is going to give his new party. New Party? Fine Farage? Veritas?
It's already been officially registered as "the Brexit Party".
Old Nige is hoping we don't Brexit so that he can get back on the horse....
I think he'll do it anyway. Like all the ultras he will claim whatever is finally agreed as a massive betrayal that justifies the need for his new populist/alt-right party.
Now Leave voters are animals? (I mean obviously we are, all humans are animals, but you meant it as an insult.) It's not irrational to have a different set of priorities to you or to politicians whose only goal is short-term GDP maximisation.
As for new evidence, Remain has produced the same stories it did during the referendum campaign while the economy has continued to chug along quite nicely. Maybe the EU hasn't made a good deal quickly in the manner that some Leavers hoped - but the contempt and nastiness of characters like Donald Tusk is in itself a further argument for Leave.
“Some Leavers”.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
It was a deliberate insult to all Leave voters that was heard loud and clear.
Bloody Federasts, eh!
You are totally unqualified to comment since you insult any unionist you find by using sectarian language.
“Some Leavers”. Remind me which Leavers were explaining before the referendum was held that the supermarkets might be warning of disruption to food supplies and that it couldn’t be guaranteed that there would be no deaths caused by medical shortages.
The reaction of some Leavers to what Donald Tusk said is a handy identifier of the cultists, demonstrating the difference between those who can read and those who just want to get angry.
Well obviously none of us. Supermarkets warning of something isn't the same as it actually happening though. Dealing with things which actually have happened - Remainer politicians hyped up the idea of a spike in unemployment just from a *vote* to Leave.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
Find a form of words which Donald Tusk could have used to criticise the leaders of the Leave campaign that you would find acceptable. Or are they beyond criticism, living saints at whose feet we should all prostrate ourselves?
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
If he's serious about getting a positive deal and the UK and EU moving forward, engaging in that sort of rhetoric was plain stupid full stop.
The bad man said nasty things about your heroes? Grow up.
He said nasty things about me as well, given that I campaigned for Brexit. By implication, he also insulted voters who (in his worldview) were misled because they're too stupid to know what they're doing.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
It was a deliberate insult to all Leave voters that was heard loud and clear.
As I say, a dog whistle. People like Caroline Lucas and Anna Soubry cheered it because, as elected politicians, they have to bite their tongue rather than say that sort of thing. In Tusk's position there's nothing to stop the hatred from flowing.
The sentence was precise and fair comment. You just don’t like it because you feel attacked. Grow up. Other people are entitled to different opinions. There is abundant supporting evidence for this one.
Just as you lost your shit over May's citizens of nowhere speech.
Not sure why politicians keep peddling the line Brexit was a cry for help from communities left behind .
This desperate attempt to legitimize this act of self harm and place laudable principles on it just wants to avoid the uncomfortable truth .
The UK has some of the thickest and most uninformed voters in the western world who like drones followed the garbage spewed by the right wing media .
Yes, I get a bit tired of this line as well - although I have more sympathy with it here on Brexit than I do with it in America on Trump. Perhaps because I don't view Brexit as being even nearly as bad a thing to vote for as Trump.
It is (quite literally) Political Correctness. A politician can never say bad things about voters. Or if they do - witness HRC's 'deplorables' - they get hammered for it.
So they have to invent faux concern about people being 'left behind' in order to 'understand' why they voted for something bad and stupid.
Left behind? Mmm. Perhaps. Or is it more an inability to come to terms with the loss of the god-given right of the white male blue collar American to a well paid job for life and a spot of hunting and wife beating at the weekend?
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The contempt you have for democracy is just sickening.
Which is why, when May's Shit Deal gets through Parliament, we will need a new PM who is not afraid to say they will walk away from May's Shit Deal, if that is the right thing to do for the country.
PS very well said DavidL.
Tusk chose his words carefully, but he knew what he was saying. I think your preferred term for it is a 'dog whistle'. The only cultists identified are the Remainers who cheered what he said.
In 2016-17 the postgraduate student numbers in the UK were as follows:
148,000 UK nationals
142,000 non EU national
46,000 EU nationals
EU nationals make up 14% of our postgraduate cadre.
Non EU nationals make up 42%.
Nor does anyone expect post Brexit that it will be significantly harder for EU nationals to come and study or do research. This is another of those Remainer myths.
And I stand by my comments . As can be highlighted by the stupid couple on Channel 4 who voted Leave and are now whining about losing freedom of movement !
The actual brass tacks are all in the WA.
The snowflakery that Leavers are now demonstrating is beyond parody.
https://qz.com/967554/the-five-universal-laws-of-human-stupidity/
In 1976, a professor of economic history at the University of California, Berkeley published an essay outlining the fundamental laws of a force he perceived as humanity’s greatest existential threat: Stupidity.
Law 1: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
Law 2: The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
Law 3. A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Law 4: Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
Law 5: A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.
In due course we shall be expected to subscribe to the idea that Brexit was an immaculate conception.
Given how it is turning out, there won’t be many rushing to claim paternity rights.
I agree. It is. In voting to Leave and in winning the day the working class put one over on the middle class. The assertion is simplistic (as any single statement about Brexit is bound to be) but is no less true for that.
So, yes, it was a triumph of salt of the earths over their social betters.
Does this make it good? Normally I would say yes. It would be hats off. In this case, however, the hat stays very much on. It is not good. It is bad.
Why? Because (i) the people driving the idea of Brexit are wealthy reactionaries and careerists who have no interest whatsoever in improving the lot of the common man; and (ii) the reality of Brexit once delivered will equally do nothing whatsoever to improve that lot, more likely will do the opposite.
If we are going to attempt a sentence to sum up Brexit, I prefer this one -
Brexit is, at heart, an exploitation of the plebs by the knobs the principal objective of which is to make the knobs even knobbier.
Cameron has never been my hero, and on that I agree with Tusk. Cameron should have let the CS do their job.
I have taken the view for a while that it will be a No Deal exit, largely because of stupidity, obstinacy, the general cock-up theory of life, cowardice.
Also, I was appealing to his self-interest in the comment you're responding to. He can think what he likes but if a deal is in the EU's interests it's daft of him to jeopardise that.
A.global Buccaneering Britain has a better future than a sclerotic and parochial Europe.
The only reason you're defending them is you agree with him, and like the cut of his jib.
Had similar comments been made the other way round by May, Hunt or Barclay you'd have been amongst the first on here to condemn them.
I hope they are happy...
I wasn't though convinced that enlarging the EU to include the former Communist counties was a good idea, and certainly not those who over a period of about three generations had moved from Ottoman rule to Communist to 'democratic''.
Not the voters.
You want to know why there's so much distrust and emotion on the Leave side?
That's why.
They can't be unexpired. Everything would need to be new from then on.
And it is true that I also condemned Hunt when he likened the EU to a Soviet prison, Johnson when he talked about it being akin to Nazi Germany and May when she attacked citizens of nowhere.
You have me bang to rights.
You can sign a new one.
Be interesting to see what the new party would do in a GE, possibly better than Farage's previous.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=farage+rant+in+eu+parliament#id=10&vid=eea9d2f79bf486042f3b4f5ead45376d&action=click
It is (quite literally) Political Correctness. A politician can never say bad things about voters. Or if they do - witness HRC's 'deplorables' - they get hammered for it.
So they have to invent faux concern about people being 'left behind' in order to 'understand' why they voted for something bad and stupid.
Left behind? Mmm. Perhaps. Or is it more an inability to come to terms with the loss of the god-given right of the white male blue collar American to a well paid job for life and a spot of hunting and wife beating at the weekend?
In fact the attitude of the EU to the UK post a no-deal Brexit will be a strong indicator as to whether they wish to regard us a a third party with whom they wish to trade to the mutual benefit of both, are 'stupid' or 'bandits' - as per the comment below.
Meanwhile Remainers are happy to take all sorts of imagined offence to things Brexiteers haven't said according to cliched caricatures of them.
Genuinely fair comment.