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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Damian Hinds – the 100/1 CON leadership longshot who at Oxford

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited February 9 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Damian Hinds – the 100/1 CON leadership longshot who at Oxford beat Moggsy for the Union Presidency

I’m sure those political obsessives amongst us all remember the ‘Party Games’ episode of Yes Minister where 2 candidates on the extremes of the party were frontrunners for the post, only for the civil service to conspire to see them withdraw in favour of a compromise candidate. Sir Humphrey and Sir Arnold listed their requirements ‘malleable, flexible, likeable, No firm opinions, no bright ideas ect’ and eventually arrived, to initial self-amusement, at Jim Hacker.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,012
    I've been wondering why Hinds never seems to figure in leadership chat. Seems like a decent bloke.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,012
    And what more can you ask for than that? - a decent bloke.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,601
    It is a shame we cannot bet on the next leader but one.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,601
    edited February 9
    Where does Hinds stand on buses?

    Thousands of bus routes at risk of being scrapped.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182101

    Can anyone think of a Leader of the Opposition who has been unaccountably banging on about bus services at PMQs? Still confident the next election will be all about Brexit?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 1,417
    On topic -

    Who?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,252
    kinabalu said:

    And what more can you ask for than that? - a decent bloke.

    Competence ?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 1,392
    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,181

    Where does Hinds stand on buses?

    Thousands of bus routes at risk of being scrapped.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182101

    Can anyone think of a Leader of the Opposition who has been unaccountably banging on about bus services at PMQs? Still confident the next election will be all about Brexit?

    Oddly, our very own Nick Palmer is as responsible as anyone for this unholy mess. ;)

    Free bus passes for pensioners has been electorally popular, but disastrous for bus services. What's the point in a free bus pass if your village's service has been reduced from hourly to two times a day, or removed entirely?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,488

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    I thought it was more that May was the last one standing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,596
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Bet narrowly came off, Ireland winning by 9 points. Only saw the second half. Scotland mostly played well, but kept making silly errors.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,978

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    I thought it was more that May was the last one standing.
    She topped the Conservative Home leadership poll before the referendum campaigns, during which Gove became their favourite.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/01/our-future-tory-leader-feels-the-brexit-factor-as-theresa-may-goes-top.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    It's interesting Woody. And I have to say he's been the second best SoS in my lifetime, unfortunately behind the woman who was sacked to make room for him.

    I think however you are vastly underrating the potential for a legacy disaster - the exams system is still beyond a shambles and it is going to end in calamity at some point. He is also sooner rather than later going to have to do something about OFSTED, whose chief inspector has never actually had any credibility but is rapidly moving beyond a joke to something both nasty and dangerous (see here for her latest extraordinary display of ignorance: https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-shock-ofsted-chiefs-lack-knowledge-peer-abuse-guidance). While removing OFSTED would probably improve teaching in this country to a quite remarkable degree, it would also earn him the undying enmity of the red tops who have swallowed the lies of the likes of disgraced failed teacher and sex offender Woodhead plus serial liar and propagandist Cummings whole. And while teachers would lay the blame firmly with Gove and Morgan where it belongs, I suspect the public would be less forgiving.

    I also feel at this moment he's too junior. I can only think of one immediately former Secretary of State for Education who was elected party leader, and that was 44 years ago, under highly unusual circumstances. No other holder of the office has ever become party leader, despite some fairly important figures (Hailsham, Clarke, Balls, Halifax, Butler) holding it.

    So I agree with @DecrepitJohnL - if he moves on before the shit hits the fan, next leader but one is realistic. Not this time around. If as I expect there is a new PM in the next four months, it will be either Hunt or Javid.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400

    Where does Hinds stand on buses?

    Well, most people stand in the aisles, although I have had school trips where I had to stop them standing on the seats.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    The Conservatives could do a lot worse. They probably will.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355

    Where does Hinds stand on buses?

    Thousands of bus routes at risk of being scrapped.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182101

    Can anyone think of a Leader of the Opposition who has been unaccountably banging on about bus services at PMQs? Still confident the next election will be all about Brexit?

    Stand on buses? Nah, he sits upstairs, front seat....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    I thought it was more that May was the last one standing.
    She topped the Conservative Home leadership poll before the referendum campaigns, during which Gove became their favourite.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/01/our-future-tory-leader-feels-the-brexit-factor-as-theresa-may-goes-top.html
    That says a great deal about the IQ of ConHome readers. I blame their teachers. :smile:

    Incidentally, where is Hyufd these days?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,978
    Far-left and far-right Gilets Jaunes fighting each other again...

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813
    edited February 9

    Where does Hinds stand on buses?

    Thousands of bus routes at risk of being scrapped.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182101

    Can anyone think of a Leader of the Opposition who has been unaccountably banging on about bus services at PMQs? Still confident the next election will be all about Brexit?

    Oddly, our very own Nick Palmer is as responsible as anyone for this unholy mess. ;)

    Free bus passes for pensioners has been electorally popular, but disastrous for bus services. What's the point in a free bus pass if your village's service has been reduced from hourly to two times a day, or removed entirely?
    Indeed, and while the bus company does get paid a subsidy for each free passenger, it is much less than a paying passenger. Quite a few villages in Leicestershire, including big one on main roads have either lost their services, or had them significantly reduced, while similtaneously having new housing including social housing built. It is a real issue.

    There is no need for this to be a national free bus pass. My eighty something parents travel free by bus when visiting London by train, and the poor Isle of Wight has to subsidise older tourists to travel free.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,012

    Competence ?

    Steady on there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,596
    Dr. Foxy, it's not national, at least, I don't think so.

    Have vague memories of, a year or two ago, my mother mentioning (when she was on the bus) overhearing a man complaining that when he was in Scotland his bus pass wasn't deemed valid and he had to pay.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231
    Hinds. Charisma. Real world experience. The man has it all. A political giant.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 36,414
    Thank for the header, woody!
  • mattmatt Posts: 2,701

    Where does Hinds stand on buses?

    Thousands of bus routes at risk of being scrapped.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182101

    Can anyone think of a Leader of the Opposition who has been unaccountably banging on about bus services at PMQs? Still confident the next election will be all about Brexit?

    Oddly, our very own Nick Palmer is as responsible as anyone for this unholy mess. ;)

    Free bus passes for pensioners has been electorally popular, but disastrous for bus services. What's the point in a free bus pass if your village's service has been reduced from hourly to two times a day, or removed entirely?
    The current retired generation have raised grabbing to an art form. Any word of complaint is normally met with a reference to WW2 (that a person has to be 90 or more to have fought is neither here nor there) or “we paid national insurance”.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    Jonathan said:

    Hinds. Charisma. Real world experience. The man has it all. A political giant.

    You make it sound as if he's deer to you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    What is the difference between Keaton Jennings and Chris Martin?

    One is the worst batsman in the History of Test cricket, the dismissing of whom is about as difficult as making a cup of tea and often takes less time.

    The other was a distinguished New Zealand pace bowler.
  • ydoethur said:

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    I thought it was more that May was the last one standing.
    She topped the Conservative Home leadership poll before the referendum campaigns, during which Gove became their favourite.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/01/our-future-tory-leader-feels-the-brexit-factor-as-theresa-may-goes-top.html
    That says a great deal about the IQ of ConHome readers. I blame their teachers. :smile:

    Incidentally, where is Hyufd these days?
    I believe he is visiting Israel and Palestine
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 13,938
    kinabalu said:

    I've been wondering why Hinds never seems to figure in leadership chat. Seems like a decent bloke.

    That's probably why... ;)
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,809

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.
    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    Strange to find the word"compromise" in the same sentence as "May" - but then we are talking about the Conservative Party!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,488
    edited February 9
    You never 'ad the bombers overhead every night, though, didjer? Like wot I did. Not 'ad ter put up wiv rationing! Never knew if yer Dad would come 'ome or not! Never 'ad a banana till I was fourteen!

    Or something like that! (I was 7 when WWII ended). I've got a free TV licence too!

    I use my bus pass quite a lot, and TBH I wouldn't mind having to pay something towards it. Many's the time I've been on a bus with ONLY pensioners on it, especially the one from the Park and Ride to our local hospital.
    We should though be encouraging bus use; I'd use it a lot more if the available routes were a better fit with my life.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,231
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hinds. Charisma. Real world experience. The man has it all. A political giant.

    You make it sound as if he's deer to you.
    Hind might help the Tories stagger to defeat.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 1,370
    Guido's piece bigging up the Toyota news is uncharacteristically clueless even for Guido:

    "Funny how quiet the media was when another Japanese car giant did start a major new production line – just last month Toyota commenced production of the new 2019 Corolla at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire where over 3000 people are employed. The Corolla is not a niche SUV like the Nissan X-Trail, it is the best-selling car model in the world…"

    Yes. That's because the 2019 Corolla is replacing the 2018 Corolla (or the Auris, as it was branded). I'm not sure that if, say, McVities change the recipe for Jaffa Cakes, their revised production line is billed as a great economic win for Britain.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hinds. Charisma. Real world experience. The man has it all. A political giant.

    You make it sound as if he's deer to you.
    Hind might help the Tories stagger to defeat.
    But it might turn them against Hunt, if not hunting.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hinds. Charisma. Real world experience. The man has it all. A political giant.

    You make it sound as if he's deer to you.
    I'd join in, but my hart's not in it....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 12,980
    ydoethur said:

    It's interesting Woody. And I have to say he's been the second best SoS in my lifetime, unfortunately behind the woman who was sacked to make room for him.

    I think however you are vastly underrating the potential for a legacy disaster - the exams system is still beyond a shambles and it is going to end in calamity at some point. He is also sooner rather than later going to have to do something about OFSTED, whose chief inspector has never actually had any credibility but is rapidly moving beyond a joke to something both nasty and dangerous (see here for her latest extraordinary display of ignorance: https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-shock-ofsted-chiefs-lack-knowledge-peer-abuse-guidance). While removing OFSTED would probably improve teaching in this country to a quite remarkable degree, it would also earn him the undying enmity of the red tops who have swallowed the lies of the likes of disgraced failed teacher and sex offender Woodhead plus serial liar and propagandist Cummings whole. And while teachers would lay the blame firmly with Gove and Morgan where it belongs, I suspect the public would be less forgiving.

    I also feel at this moment he's too junior. I can only think of one immediately former Secretary of State for Education who was elected party leader, and that was 44 years ago, under highly unusual circumstances. No other holder of the office has ever become party leader, despite some fairly important figures (Hailsham, Clarke, Balls, Halifax, Butler) holding it.

    So I agree with @DecrepitJohnL - if he moves on before the shit hits the fan, next leader but one is realistic. Not this time around. If as I expect there is a new PM in the next four months, it will be either Hunt or Javid.

    Do you object to the whole concept of Ofsted or just its current leader and incarnation? And if you removed it, would you replace it and, if so, by what?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hinds. Charisma. Real world experience. The man has it all. A political giant.

    You make it sound as if he's deer to you.
    I'd join in, but my hart's not in it....
    I am stag gered that he is considered seriously.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    matt said:

    The current retired generation have raised grabbing to an art form. Any word of complaint is normally met with a reference to WW2 (that a person has to be 90 or more to have fought is neither here nor there) or “we paid national insurance”.

    You missed out "We beat Hitler you know... Brexit is nuffink to worry about"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355

    Far-left and far-right Gilets Jaunes fighting each other again...

    Those Remainers who've been losing their shit about the UK being "a failed state" might like to cast a glance over the Channel. I wonder how many of them have had a whiff of tear gas in the UK?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,181
    Foxy said:



    Indeed, and while the bus company does get paid a subsidy for each free passenger, it is much less than a paying passenger. Quite a few villages in Leicestershire, including big one on main roads have either lost their services, or had them significantly reduced, while similtaneously having new housing including social housing built. It is a real issue.

    There is no need for this to be a national free bus pass. My eighty something parents travel free by bus when visiting London by train, and the poor Isle of Wight has to subsidise older tourists to travel free.

    AIUI it's not just that they don't get the full amount: it's more insidious than that. Firstly, the system is much more complex, with arguments between operators, councils and now the national government(s) about ridership figures. Secondly, those ridership figures don't exist: all you know is how many free passes got on at a stop, not how far they went - and that's what you know if someone buys a ticket.

    Councils are cash-strapped. Bus services are (rightly IMO) a lower priority than some other services, and the buses are subsidised. Therefore if they can stop running services then they save that subsidy.

    So the operator goes: "This service has fifteen people travelling from A to L."
    The council replies: "You only sell three tickets."
    Operator: "The others are free bus passes."
    Council: "We think most of those get off at point C. Let's cut back the service to there, as only three people are going beyond C to L."

    Unless you survey ridership (and surveys are expensive and often inaccurate) you now don't have the figures for ridership over the route, as you don't know when the free pass holders got off the bus.

    It's a mess, and a predictable one.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,338
    ydoethur said:

    Where does Hinds stand on buses?

    Well, most people stand in the aisles, although I have had school trips where I had to stop them standing on the seats.
    They'll be dancing in the seats of Raith tonight!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,012
    edited February 9
    GIN1138 said:


    That's probably why... ;)

    😊
    Hopefully for his sake he is only pretending to be a decent bloke and below the surface there rages an amoral beast with a burning ambition to lead his party.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813
    edited February 9
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    It's interesting Woody. And I have to say he's been the second best SoS in my lifetime, unfortunately behind the woman who was sacked to make room for him.

    I think however you are vastly underrating the potential for a legacy disaster - the exams system is still beyond a shambles and it is going to end in calamity at some point. He is also sooner rather than later going to have to do something about OFSTED, whose chief inspector has never actually had any credibility but is rapidly moving beyond a joke to something both nasty and dangerous (see here for her latest extraordinary display of ignorance: https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-shock-ofsted-chiefs-lack-knowledge-peer-abuse-guidance). While removing OFSTED would probably improve teaching in this country to a quite remarkable degree, it would also earn him the undying enmity of the red tops who have swallowed the lies of the likes of disgraced failed teacher and sex offender Woodhead plus serial liar and propagandist Cummings whole. And while teachers would lay the blame firmly with Gove and Morgan where it belongs, I suspect the public would be less forgiving.

    I also feel at this moment he's too junior. I can only think of one immediately former Secretary of State for Education who was elected party leader, and that was 44 years ago, under highly unusual circumstances. No other holder of the office has ever become party leader, despite some fairly important figures (Hailsham, Clarke, Balls, Halifax, Butler) holding it.

    So I agree with @DecrepitJohnL - if he moves on before the shit hits the fan, next leader but one is realistic. Not this time around. If as I expect there is a new PM in the next four months, it will be either Hunt or Javid.

    Do you object to the whole concept of Ofsted or just its current leader and incarnation? And if you removed it, would you replace it and, if so, by what?
    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813

    Far-left and far-right Gilets Jaunes fighting each other again...

    Those Remainers who've been losing their shit about the UK being "a failed state" might like to cast a glance over the Channel. I wonder how many of them have had a whiff of tear gas in the UK?
    The neon nazis and their left wing sparring partners are doing wonders for Macrons popularity though! Even frogs get pissed off at seeing the country smashed up by hooligans.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,338

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hinds. Charisma. Real world experience. The man has it all. A political giant.

    You make it sound as if he's deer to you.
    I'd join in, but my hart's not in it....
    I fear your argument is rather fallow...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,813

    Foxy said:



    Indeed, and while the bus company does get paid a subsidy for each free passenger, it is much less than a paying passenger. Quite a few villages in Leicestershire, including big one on main roads have either lost their services, or had them significantly reduced, while similtaneously having new housing including social housing built. It is a real issue.

    There is no need for this to be a national free bus pass. My eighty something parents travel free by bus when visiting London by train, and the poor Isle of Wight has to subsidise older tourists to travel free.

    AIUI it's not just that they don't get the full amount: it's more insidious than that. Firstly, the system is much more complex, with arguments between operators, councils and now the national government(s) about ridership figures. Secondly, those ridership figures don't exist: all you know is how many free passes got on at a stop, not how far they went - and that's what you know if someone buys a ticket.

    Councils are cash-strapped. Bus services are (rightly IMO) a lower priority than some other services, and the buses are subsidised. Therefore if they can stop running services then they save that subsidy.

    So the operator goes: "This service has fifteen people travelling from A to L."
    The council replies: "You only sell three tickets."
    Operator: "The others are free bus passes."
    Council: "We think most of those get off at point C. Let's cut back the service to there, as only three people are going beyond C to L."

    Unless you survey ridership (and surveys are expensive and often inaccurate) you now don't have the figures for ridership over the route, as you don't know when the free pass holders got off the bus.

    It's a mess, and a predictable one.
    Indeed. I am all in favour of subsidising busses as a green and congestion measure, but the current system is ripe for replacement.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 568
    Foxy said:

    Far-left and far-right Gilets Jaunes fighting each other again...

    Those Remainers who've been losing their shit about the UK being "a failed state" might like to cast a glance over the Channel. I wonder how many of them have had a whiff of tear gas in the UK?
    The neon nazis and their left wing sparring partners are doing wonders for Macrons popularity though! Even frogs get pissed off at seeing the country smashed up by hooligans.
    Look, if things get really bad in post Brexit Britain then we can always rely on Mike Ashley to put in a bid.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    It's interesting Woody. And I have to say he's been the second best SoS in my lifetime, unfortunately behind the woman who was sacked to make room for him.

    I think however you are vastly underrating the potential for a legacy disaster - the exams system is still beyond a shambles and it is going to end in calamity at some point. He is also sooner rather than later going to have to do something about OFSTED, whose chief inspector has never actually had any credibility but is rapidly moving beyond a joke to something both nasty and dangerous (see here for her latest extraordinary display of ignorance: https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-shock-ofsted-chiefs-lack-knowledge-peer-abuse-guidance). While removing OFSTED would probably improve teaching in this country to a quite remarkable degree, it would also earn him the undying enmity of the red tops who have swallowed the lies of the likes of disgraced failed teacher and sex offender Woodhead plus serial liar and propagandist Cummings whole. And while teachers would lay the blame firmly with Gove and Morgan where it belongs, I suspect the public would be less forgiving.

    I also feel at this moment he's too junior. I can only think of one immediately former Secretary of State for Education who was elected party leader, and that was 44 years ago, under highly unusual circumstances. No other holder of the office has ever become party leader, despite some fairly important figures (Hailsham, Clarke, Balls, Halifax, Butler) holding it.

    So I agree with @DecrepitJohnL - if he moves on before the shit hits the fan, next leader but one is realistic. Not this time around. If as I expect there is a new PM in the next four months, it will be either Hunt or Javid.

    Do you object to the whole concept of Ofsted or just its current leader and incarnation? And if you removed it, would you replace it and, if so, by what?
    It's based on the false premise that only the government understands whether or not education is good. Which is not only wrong, it is asinine. The other significant issue is that it has essentially become a junket - bad enough when it was a junket for failed teachers, far far worse now it is a junket for failed civil servants who clearly have the intelligence, integrity and knowledge of your friend(!) Adoboli.

    Ultimately, I believe schools should be responsible to parents. That isn't possible in its purest form, but OFSTED is unhelpful as it sets a false standard that doesn't reflect reality (as @Foxy comments of the CQC) and actively takes accountability away from governors, parents and local authorities who pay the bills.

    And before anyone makes remarks about sour grapes, I should perhaps point out they graded me and my faculty outstanding at their last inspection.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 19,215
    Foxy said:

    Far-left and far-right Gilets Jaunes fighting each other again...

    Those Remainers who've been losing their shit about the UK being "a failed state" might like to cast a glance over the Channel. I wonder how many of them have had a whiff of tear gas in the UK?
    The neon nazis and their left wing sparring partners are doing wonders for Macrons popularity though! Even frogs get pissed off at seeing the country smashed up by hooligans.
    survey from last week said the GJs had 64% support amongst the French public.

    Macrons bounce is because he is promising lots of goodies from his debat nationale Since lots of it is contradictory he has to disappioint some section of voters later in the year.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 6,749
    I would have thought that if Hinds makes it to the membership vote he loses to a more Brexity candidate. Cameron might well not have won the membership vote without the promise to leave the EPP. What would Hinds have to promise the membership to convince them he was Brexity enough?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,012
    Foxy said:

    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.

    It's odd how an obsession with measuring things means nothing important gets measured.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,488
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    It's interesting Woody. And I have to say he's been the second best SoS in my lifetime, unfortunately behind the woman who was sacked to make room for him.

    I think however you are vastly underrating the potential for a legacy disaster - the exams system is still beyond a shambles and it is going to end in calamity at some point. He is also sooner rather than later going to have to do something about OFSTED, whose chief inspector has never actually had any credibility but is rapidly moving beyond a joke to something both nasty and dangerous (see here for her latest extraordinary display of ignorance: https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-shock-ofsted-chiefs-lack-knowledge-peer-abuse-guidance). While removing OFSTED would probably improve teaching in this country to a quite remarkable degree, it would also earn him the undying enmity of the red tops who have swallowed the lies of the likes of disgraced failed teacher and sex offender Woodhead plus serial liar and propagandist Cummings whole. And while teachers would lay the blame firmly with Gove and Morgan where it belongs, I suspect the public would be less forgiving.

    I also feel at this moment he's too junior. I can only think of one immediately former Secretary of State for Education who was elected party leader, and that was 44 years ago, under highly unusual circumstances. No other holder of the office has ever become party leader, despite some fairly important figures (Hailsham, Clarke, Balls, Halifax, Butler) holding it.

    So I agree with @DecrepitJohnL - if he moves on before the shit hits the fan, next leader but one is realistic. Not this time around. If as I expect there is a new PM in the next four months, it will be either Hunt or Javid.

    Do you object to the whole concept of Ofsted or just its current leader and incarnation? And if you removed it, would you replace it and, if so, by what?
    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.
    I used to be seconded to Care Home etc Inspection Teams, which in my day included private (not NHS) hospitals. Basic problem in my day, IMHO, was that no-one had settled down and decided either how to inspect, or what the aim of the exercise was.
    There used, at one time to be a postgrad nursing module in Inspection issues at Anglia Ruskin but it was scrapped after a year or two.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.

    It's odd how an obsession with measuring things means nothing important gets measured.
    The problem with inspecting say, medicine or education is how can you measure what is good? For example, if somebody has an upset tummy after drinking half a bottle of whisky is good treatment sending them for blood tests and an MRI? Arguably, yes. It is sensible? Certainly not.

    Similarly, given how different classes, schools, teachers and subjects are, how do you say something is 'good' or not? It's very subjective. But if you are subjective, you have no standard to judge against. As a result checking what forms and procedures are in place is much easier. That also means however that schools who ignore such pettifogging regulations in record keeping as are required, they are threatened with special measures (as a friend of mine was a couple of years ago).

    Yet those, while important, are ultimately not good criteria to judge a school by. Both Wilshaw and Spielmann said they wished to dispense with the checkboxes, but they abandoned that idea when they realised that would leave them with nothing to actually inspect.

    Which is why I come back again to parents and governors.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 878
    edited February 9
    Scott_P said:
    The man is clearly scarred by his battles gone-by. And that he had the luxury of the hard-left having been tamed by the time he took office.

    The answer of 'NOT Corbyn' must be overwhelming with not just Tory activists, but Tory voters.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.

    It's odd how an obsession with measuring things means nothing important gets measured.
    But how do you measure whether string is the right length?

    Far easier to test whether it was manufactured the same way as something else.
  • mattmatt Posts: 2,701
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.

    It's odd how an obsession with measuring things means nothing important gets measured.
    The problem with inspecting say, medicine or education is how can you measure what is good? For example, if somebody has an upset tummy after drinking half a bottle of whisky is good treatment sending them for blood tests and an MRI? Arguably, yes. It is sensible? Certainly not.

    Similarly, given how different classes, schools, teachers and subjects are, how do you say something is 'good' or not? It's very subjective. But if you are subjective, you have no standard to judge against. As a result checking what forms and procedures are in place is much easier. That also means however that schools who ignore such pettifogging regulations in record keeping as are required, they are threatened with special measures (as a friend of mine was a couple of years ago).

    Yet those, while important, are ultimately not good criteria to judge a school by. Both Wilshaw and Spielmann said they wished to dispense with the checkboxes, but they abandoned that idea when they realised that would leave them with nothing to actually inspect.

    Which is why I come back again to parents and governors.
    The problem with that is governors who are craven in front of teaching staff (political appointees and religious types seem particularly poor) and/or where the parents just don’t give a shit.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944
    The next Tory leadership challenge will be a horror show as candidates desperate to win the Members over will descend into seeing who can be the most vile bigot .

    The majority of the membership are now UKIP in disguise so any of the saner Tories will have no chance .

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    edited February 9
    matt said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.

    It's odd how an obsession with measuring things means nothing important gets measured.
    The problem with inspecting say, medicine or education is how can you measure what is good? For example, if somebody has an upset tummy after drinking half a bottle of whisky is good treatment sending them for blood tests and an MRI? Arguably, yes. It is sensible? Certainly not.

    Similarly, given how different classes, schools, teachers and subjects are, how do you say something is 'good' or not? It's very subjective. But if you are subjective, you have no standard to judge against. As a result checking what forms and procedures are in place is much easier. That also means however that schools who ignore such pettifogging regulations in record keeping as are required, they are threatened with special measures (as a friend of mine was a couple of years ago).

    Yet those, while important, are ultimately not good criteria to judge a school by. Both Wilshaw and Spielmann said they wished to dispense with the checkboxes, but they abandoned that idea when they realised that would leave them with nothing to actually inspect.

    Which is why I come back again to parents and governors.
    The problem with that is governors who are craven in front of teaching staff (political appointees and religious types seem particularly poor) and/or where the parents just don’t give a shit.
    Wouldn't you be, if you had responsibility without power? (Although actually that's not my experience of governors at all.)

    And again, in all four of the schools I have worked in, including two inner-city comps, the parents have been very engaged to the point of being incredibly difficult at times. But they do not trust governors to press their interests (rightly, given how they've been emasculated).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 22,677

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    I’m a bit of a political nerd and I had no idea he was in the cabinet!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    edited February 9
    Charles said:

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    I’m a bit of a political nerd and I had no idea he was in the cabinet!
    That's not fatal. Prior to 2015 I had never heard of Corbyn and I have a masters in British Politics!

    But as I say, I think for other reasons he's not he right candidate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    Scott_P said:
    How is he to be expected to decide between two hard-line Brexiteers?

    It would make his little grey Europhile head explode....
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944
    Some pensioners would still vote Tory even if their manifesto said they’d be culled at 80!

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    Charles said:

    The Tory party tried a compromise candidate last time and got May. Once bitten twice shy is all I can say.

    As for Hinds, since he has been promoted to cabinet he has been the invisible man.

    I’m a bit of a political nerd and I had no idea he was in the cabinet!
    Ditto.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 19,215
    nico67 said:

    Some pensioners would still vote Tory even if their manifesto said they’d be culled at 80!

    and that differs from Labour how ?
  • mattmatt Posts: 2,701
    ydoethur said:

    matt said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    I think OFSTED is as crap as the CQC. The concept is not so much the issue as the pisspoor execution.

    At our last CQC visit I wss put up to be interviewed by the inspectors, who were woefully junior and green. They didn't spot any of the problematic areas in the department, but got obsessed with inflicting more garbage tick boxes on us. It seems as if it doesn't matter if patients are suffering as long as everyone has done their Prevent training.

    Inspectors seem to be able to spot forms not being done, but neither neglect or excellence.

    It's odd how an obsession with measuring things means nothing important gets measured.
    The problem with inspecting say, medicine or education is how can you measure what is good? For example, if somebody has an upset tummy after drinking half a bottle of whisky is good treatment sending them for blood tests and an MRI? Arguably, yes. It is sensible? Certainly not.

    Similarly, given how different classes, schools, teachers and subjects are, how do you say something is 'good' or not? It's very subjective. But if you are subjective, you have no standard to judge against. As a result checking what forms and procedures are in place is much easier. That also means however that schools who ignore such pettifogging regulations in record keeping as are required, they are threatened with special measures (as a friend of mine was a couple of years ago).

    Yet those, while important, are ultimately not good criteria to judge a school by. Both Wilshaw and Spielmann said they wished to dispense with the checkboxes, but they abandoned that idea when they realised that would leave them with nothing to actually inspect.

    Which is why I come back again to parents and governors.
    The problem with that is governors who are craven in front of teaching staff (political appointees and religious types seem particularly poor) and/or where the parents just don’t give a shit.
    Wouldn't you be, if you had responsibility without power? (Although actually that's not my experience of governors at all.)

    And again, in all four of the schools I have worked in, including two inner-city comps, the parents have been very engaged to the point of being incredibly difficult at times. But they do not trust governors to press their interests (rightly, given how they've been emasculated).
    It varies, I think. Did governors ever have mascules though? I do feel that the political appointees (the local councillor in my experience) add little.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    matt said:

    It varies, I think. Did governors ever have mascules though? I do feel that the political appointees (the local councillor in my experience) add little.

    Basically, the whole structure underpinning education is a disorganised shambles that needs to be completely dismantled and rebuilt from first principles. But no politician would ever do it as it would mean ceding control to intelligent people who might do a good job and show them up,
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944

    nico67 said:

    Some pensioners would still vote Tory even if their manifesto said they’d be culled at 80!

    and that differs from Labour how ?
    Most pensioners don’t vote Labour !
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    nico67 said:

    Some pensioners would still vote Tory even if their manifesto said they’d be culled at 80!

    You mean we don't have to pay to go to Dignitas in Switzerland? Result!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    Wales making real heavy weather of Italy.....
  • matt said:

    The current retired generation have raised grabbing to an art form. Any word of complaint is normally met with a reference to WW2 (that a person has to be 90 or more to have fought is neither here nor there) or “we paid national insurance”.

    You missed out "We beat Hitler you know... Brexit is nuffink to worry about"
    I genuinely never hear the older folks I know talk like that.
  • Wales making real heavy weather of Italy.....

    The Welsh are putting in the worst performance against a side from Rome in the Battle of Zama.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 12,980
    ydoethur said:

    matt said:

    It varies, I think. Did governors ever have mascules though? I do feel that the political appointees (the local councillor in my experience) add little.

    Basically, the whole structure underpinning education is a disorganised shambles that needs to be completely dismantled and rebuilt from first principles. But no politician would ever do it as it would mean ceding control to intelligent people who might do a good job and show them up,
    Thank you for your response.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400

    Wales making real heavy weather of Italy.....

    The Welsh are putting in the worst performance against a side from Rome in the Battle of Zama.
    Even that's less dismal than England's performance in the Windies. What idiot said it couldn't be worse?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944
    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355

    Wales making real heavy weather of Italy.....

    The Welsh are putting in the worst performance against a side from Rome in the Battle of Zama.
    Better.....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,985
    Pauly said:

    Scott_P said:
    The man is clearly scarred by his battles gone-by. And that he had the luxury of the hard-left having been tamed by the time he took office.

    The answer of 'NOT Corbyn' must be overwhelming with not just Tory activists, but Tory voters.
    It's not the Tory voters you've got to worry about, it's the 'Christ, I know I voted for them last time out, but this current lot are shit' brigade.
  • They've only gone and improved the best biscuit in the world.

    Jaffa cakes now come in strawberry flavour.

    https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/worklife/a26249541/strawberry-jaffa-cakes/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    I think you overestimate Ireland's reputation. After the GFC, there was rather a nasty implication that all Irish were crooks.
  • nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    Christ on a bike, man! You just want it to be like that. Real life honestly doesn't mirror PB.com
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400

    They've only gone and improved the best biscuit in the world.

    Jaffa cakes now come in strawberry flavour.

    https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/worklife/a26249541/strawberry-jaffa-cakes/

    I was going to joke about them being Shannon-flavoured.

    But the truth is the Windies haven't needed to bowl jaffers. England have just been pathetic.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944
    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    I think you overestimate Ireland's reputation. After the GFC, there was rather a nasty implication that all Irish were crooks.
    No , I’ve been hugely impressed by Ireland over the last few years . What changes they’ve seen over the last twenty years . Really amazing and also to have a gay PM . I think Leo V is great and also Coveney .

    Sadly all the decent UK politicians seem to be stuck on the backbenches .
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    edited February 9
    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    What bollocks.

    Ireland has recently been dragged into the twentieth century.....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,116
    What odds for Chris Grayling?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,116

    They've only gone and improved the best biscuit in the world.

    Jaffa cakes now come in strawberry flavour.

    https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/worklife/a26249541/strawberry-jaffa-cakes/

    That means they’re not Jaffa Cakes anymore!

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    Christ on a bike, man! You just want it to be like that. Real life honestly doesn't mirror PB.com
    It is what it is !

    You can ignore the damage done to brand UK but you’re living in denial . Ireland on the other hand has made great strides in recent years and looks a much more welcoming country than Brexit Britain !
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,116
    nico67 said:

    The next Tory leadership challenge will be a horror show as candidates desperate to win the Members over will descend into seeing who can be the most vile bigot .

    The majority of the membership are now UKIP in disguise so any of the saner Tories will have no chance .

    They’re not really in disguise.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 19,215
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    Christ on a bike, man! You just want it to be like that. Real life honestly doesn't mirror PB.com
    It is what it is !

    You can ignore the damage done to brand UK but you’re living in denial . Ireland on the other hand has made great strides in recent years and looks a much more welcoming country than Brexit Britain !
    so youll be moving ?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    What bollocks.

    Ireland has recently been dragged into the twentieth century.....
    And Leavers have dragged the UK back to the 19th century .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    nico67 said:

    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    I think you overestimate Ireland's reputation. After the GFC, there was rather a nasty implication that all Irish were crooks.
    No , I’ve been hugely impressed by Ireland over the last few years . What changes they’ve seen over the last twenty years . Really amazing and also to have a gay PM . I think Leo V is great and also Coveney .

    Sadly all the decent UK politicians seem to be stuck on the backbenches .
    That doesn't answer my point. You are saying because you are impressed with Ireland, therefore it has a great reputation. I'm pointing out that that's wrong. The likes of Lenihan, Ahern, Honohan gave Ireland's international reputation a far worse pounding than anything Brexit is doing to us. At one point, it was being openly compared to Venezuela under the genuinely evil Chavez and Maduro.

    It was of course the Eurozone that ultimately pulled Ireland around, but major problems remain.

    As they do for us, of course.
  • mattmatt Posts: 2,701
    nico67 said:

    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    I think you overestimate Ireland's reputation. After the GFC, there was rather a nasty implication that all Irish were crooks.
    No , I’ve been hugely impressed by Ireland over the last few years . What changes they’ve seen over the last twenty years . Really amazing and also to have a gay PM . I think Leo V is great and also Coveney .

    Sadly all the decent UK politicians seem to be stuck on the backbenches .
    Ireland has moved from being a wholly owned subsidiary of the Catholic Church. Once might argue that it’s sold its future to US tech companies and Chinese money.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    What bollocks.

    Ireland has recently been dragged into the twentieth century.....
    And Leavers have dragged the UK back to the 19th century .
    Prat.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    What bollocks.

    Ireland has recently been dragged into the twentieth century.....
    And Leavers have dragged the UK back to the 19th century .
    To the days when we had a huge export surplus and captive markets who had to do what we told them?

    I must confess I don't think that's quite correct.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 944
    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    I think you overestimate Ireland's reputation. After the GFC, there was rather a nasty implication that all Irish were crooks.
    No , I’ve been hugely impressed by Ireland over the last few years . What changes they’ve seen over the last twenty years . Really amazing and also to have a gay PM . I think Leo V is great and also Coveney .

    Sadly all the decent UK politicians seem to be stuck on the backbenches .
    That doesn't answer my point. You are saying because you are impressed with Ireland, therefore it has a great reputation. I'm pointing out that that's wrong. The likes of Lenihan, Ahern, Honohan gave Ireland's international reputation a far worse pounding than anything Brexit is doing to us. At one point, it was being openly compared to Venezuela under the genuinely evil Chavez and Maduro.

    It was of course the Eurozone that ultimately pulled Ireland around, but major problems remain.

    As they do for us, of course.
    I’m talking about the here and now . The UKs reputation has been damaged and Ireland’s is moving in the opposite direction .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,400
    nico67 said:

    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    I think you overestimate Ireland's reputation. After the GFC, there was rather a nasty implication that all Irish were crooks.
    No , I’ve been hugely impressed by Ireland over the last few years . What changes they’ve seen over the last twenty years . Really amazing and also to have a gay PM . I think Leo V is great and also Coveney .

    Sadly all the decent UK politicians seem to be stuck on the backbenches .
    That doesn't answer my point. You are saying because you are impressed with Ireland, therefore it has a great reputation. I'm pointing out that that's wrong. The likes of Lenihan, Ahern, Honohan gave Ireland's international reputation a far worse pounding than anything Brexit is doing to us. At one point, it was being openly compared to Venezuela under the genuinely evil Chavez and Maduro.

    It was of course the Eurozone that ultimately pulled Ireland around, but major problems remain.

    As they do for us, of course.
    I’m talking about the here and now . The UKs reputation has been damaged and Ireland’s is moving in the opposite direction .
    Even if you were correct, ours is starting from a high base, theirs from a very low one.

    Be careful you don't confuse wishful thinking with informed analysis. That way lies Faragedom.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,116
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s quite amazing how Ireland and the UK have reached a fork in the road .

    Ireland continues to move forward , in recent years liberalizing its laws and showing to the world it’s an open tolerant country .

    The reverse for the UK , more mean spirited and insular , trashing its reputation. Scotland really needs to escape so it’s not dragged into the same cesspit .

    On the world stage Irish people can proudly go around with their heads held high , whilst many Brits are now shamed by the last two years .

    These are very dark times for the UK.

    Christ on a bike, man! You just want it to be like that. Real life honestly doesn't mirror PB.com
    It is what it is !

    You can ignore the damage done to brand UK but you’re living in denial . Ireland on the other hand has made great strides in recent years and looks a much more welcoming country than Brexit Britain !

    The UK has not been putting its best face to the world over recent years, that is for sure. The incessant cluelessness of our snowflakey Buccaneers is not exactly a great sell.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,181
    ydoethur said:

    matt said:

    It varies, I think. Did governors ever have mascules though? I do feel that the political appointees (the local councillor in my experience) add little.

    Basically, the whole structure underpinning education is a disorganised shambles that needs to be completely dismantled and rebuilt from first principles. But no politician would ever do it as it would mean ceding control to intelligent people who might do a good job and show them up,
    Hmmm, that comment in itself fills me with dread. In particular, the 'ceding control to intelligent people' bit.

    Far too many people think that, because they are intelligent, they can do anything. In fact, too often they've specialised down too an incredibly narrow area. To pick one example: they might be able to tell you the exact way to architect an RF chip, but not be able to work out how to open the fuel cap on a car. ;)

    I'm not saying that control should be ceded to thick people; just that intelligence - or even the ability to do one thing well - does not mean you'd be able to reorganise an education system that touches on a number of areas aside from education.

    I reckon if you got twenty very-educated, highly-intelligent teachers in a room, they wouldn't be able to agree what the outputs of the education system should be, yet alone how to achieve those outputs ...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,355
    Scott_P said:
    My neighbour, who is 91 this year, has just bought himself a brand new VW......
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,822

    Far-left and far-right Gilets Jaunes fighting each other again...

    Can't the left be Gilet Rouges?
This discussion has been closed.