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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The WH2020 Democratic nomination race: Sanders and O’Rourke be

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited February 11 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The WH2020 Democratic nomination race: Sanders and O’Rourke best placed for the early rounds fundraising

Chart compiled by New York Times

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First like Hillary in the popular vote.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479
    Second, like the French in just about everything.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 13,585
    A good article, Mike.

    This, I think, is Biden’s biggest weakness. He hasn’t got an organised campaign in place, and while immensely popular in the party (and his candidacy notably engendering enthusiasm in recent California polling), it’s unclear how,well he might translate that into a successful grassroots campaign.

    In contrast, Harris appears to have got off to a good (and early) start in this respect.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 13,585
    Once you’ve given and are on the list you’ll be asked time and time again.

    I’m told that this can become extremely irritating...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,563
    Good morning everyone. Missed yesterday; family visit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332
    edited February 11
    The fact Sanders leads in online donors will give him a big advantage both in identifying and being able to fund efforts to get supporters to the Iowa caucus and New Hampshire primary where all the momentum will come from for the campaign and sustaining his campaign over the longer term. O'Rourke and Warren also have a big advantage here too as they round off the top 3.

    Harris though looks weaker at this point in terms of fundraising and ground operation than the early betting suggests and that could be a problem for her as funds available and ground operation are crucial in getting out the vote in primaries and caucuses
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 27,664
    "No-deal Brexit would make Britain less safe, says police chief

    Officer leading national preparations decries potential loss of EU crime-fighting tools"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/11/no-deal-brexit-would-make-britain-less-safe-says-police-chief
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,619
    This is great data except that it's a bit early to be using it, since we're mainly getting the results of previous campaigns.

    Impressive how big that Gillibrand number is, though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,563
    Is this the modern NHS? 12 year old Granddaughter has a problem. Apparently she’s got an issue about too many teeth, and therefore needs them straightening. So she’s had two out, but now the company which operates orthodontic services in her area has said they’ve lost the NHS orthodontic contract and, ‘Sorry, but that’s it!’ They won't be fitting a brace. Her mother isn't, at the moment, not quite sure what’s going to happen.
    IMHO that’s appalling.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,619
    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,572

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    I guess that’s what you call starting your campaign with a blizzard of publicity?
  • So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,931
    Sandpit said:

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    I guess that’s what you call starting your campaign with a blizzard of publicity?
    Did she get a frosty reception?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479

    Is this the modern NHS?

    Yes. And there was no need for the 'IMHO.' It is appalling.

    That said I am surprised the treatment was stopped halfway through. More normally in my experience they would have refused to start it, although Foxy would be in a better position to explain than I am.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479
    Sandpit said:

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    I guess that’s what you call starting your campaign with a blizzard of publicity?
    She's going to be snowed under with criticism.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,563

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    I suspect we're playing with demons anyway, regarding China as a potential partners. Chinese statesmanship traditionally has a long memory and 150 or so years ago we bullied the collapsing Empire.
    We need to be careful there.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 4,501
    He is the biggest pillock to take the Defence job since Geoff Hoon.

    Worse, since the Hoonmeister was operating within a coherent (if flawed) foreign policy, whereas Williamson seems to have free range to talk utter bollocks direct to the readers of Telegraph (and future Tory leadership contest voters) and never mind the impact on, you know, the real world.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,572
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    I guess that’s what you call starting your campaign with a blizzard of publicity?
    Did she get a frosty reception?
    The audience seemed to think she was all white.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,563
    ydoethur said:

    Is this the modern NHS?

    Yes. And there was no need for the 'IMHO.' It is appalling.

    That said I am surprised the treatment was stopped halfway through. More normally in my experience they would have refused to start it, although Foxy would be in a better position to explain than I am.
    That's true about starting it, although as far as official contracts are concerned we are getting to be very 'just in time'.

    Incidentally, it may interest you to hear that her elder brother has just achieved A* in History in his GCSE Mock exams and proposes to 'do' the subject at A level.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 4,501

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479

    ydoethur said:

    Is this the modern NHS?

    Yes. And there was no need for the 'IMHO.' It is appalling.

    That said I am surprised the treatment was stopped halfway through. More normally in my experience they would have refused to start it, although Foxy would be in a better position to explain than I am.
    That's true about starting it, although as far as official contracts are concerned we are getting to be very 'just in time'.

    Incidentally, it may interest you to hear that her elder brother has just achieved A* in History in his GCSE Mock exams and proposes to 'do' the subject at A level.
    All sensible people do! :smile:

    Hope he gets that result in the real thing.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 4,501
    Brexit:

    There is no majority for May’s deal.

    There is a majority for May’s deal, subject to it being put to the people.

    There is also probably a majority for Norway plus, now that Corbyn has swung behind it.

    Why not vote: May’s Deal, Corbyn’s Deal, Remain?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,931
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    I guess that’s what you call starting your campaign with a blizzard of publicity?
    Did she get a frosty reception?
    The audience seemed to think she was all white.
    An outdoor January rally in Minnisota is not for snowflakes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,572

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Yet still infinitely preferable to Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbot and the bunch of 1970s throwbacks currently forming the Opposition.

    I think it’s fair to say we need to do something to increase the quality of people deciding to enter politics - as someone suggested on here last week, an election with the 650 incumbents all barred from standing would be a good starting point!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    You're forgetting the government of Bonar Law in 1922-3, the 'Who? Who?' Ministry of 1852 and the Brown administration (we're all being much too quick to forget how bad that was - it included Hitler lookalike Bob Ainsworth as defence secretary).

    For the early 1800s, presumably you're referring to the Addington ministry?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,572
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    I guess that’s what you call starting your campaign with a blizzard of publicity?
    Did she get a frosty reception?
    The audience seemed to think she was all white.
    An outdoor January rally in Minnisota is not for snowflakes.
    I think you’ll find it very much is!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    I guess that’s what you call starting your campaign with a blizzard of publicity?
    Did she get a frosty reception?
    The audience seemed to think she was all white.
    An outdoor January rally in Minnisota is not for snowflakes.
    I thawt you were making a serious point there for a minute.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 4,501
    edited February 11
    ydoethur said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    You're forgetting the government of Bonar Law in 1922-3, the 'Who? Who?' Ministry of 1852 and the Brown administration (we're all being much too quick to forget how bad that was - it included Hitler lookalike Bob Ainsworth as defence secretary).

    For the early 1800s, presumably you're referring to the Addington ministry?
    My learned doctor.
    I was referring to those quick-fire and self collapsing administrations of the Napoleonic Wars, but actually the Who? Who? government is a better reference.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
  • So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    I suspect we're playing with demons anyway, regarding China as a potential partners. Chinese statesmanship traditionally has a long memory and 150 or so years ago we bullied the collapsing Empire.
    We need to be careful there.

    When David Cameron spoke to the Dalai Lama it caused British businesses - including ours - no end of trouble in China. That was probably fair enough given Chinese repression in Tibet and the need to make a stand on that. But what Williamson is doing is futile and he is doing it only because he wants to be Tory leader. Given the bridges we are currently burning with the EU and the US (hello Irish American lobby) messing around with the Chinese in their sphere of influence to further the political ambitions of a man-child is absurd.

  • So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?

    Nope - I am thinking there is no role for a medium-sized European power with one aircraft carrier to play there and that this stunt will significantly harm UK interests.

  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    FPT

    Gavin Williamson again...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6689439/Were-ready-strike-against-Russia-China.html

    Britain's Armed Forces are ready to use 'hard power' against aggressors, Gavin Williamson will declare today.

    The Defence Secretary will say it is time to increase our 'lethality' and warn Russia and China there will be a high price for flouting international law.

    In a speech in London, he will announce the deployment of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier to the Pacific to deter the Chinese.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Idiot.

    If there's one thing that a hard Brexit could achieve, it may be the final puncturing of imperial pretensions. The UK is still prancing on the world stage, but the butcher's apron is threadbare. It would be a comeuppance for the UK and facilitate Scottish independence and Irish re-unification. With the replacement of NATO by a EU armed force, little England (+/- Wales) would need to seek other allies, so unnecessarily antagonising Russia is foolhardy.

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479

    ydoethur said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    You're forgetting the government of Bonar Law in 1922-3, the 'Who? Who?' Ministry of 1852 and the Brown administration (we're all being much too quick to forget how bad that was - it included Hitler lookalike Bob Ainsworth as defence secretary).

    For the early 1800s, presumably you're referring to the Addington ministry?
    My learned doctor.
    I was referring to those quick-fire and self collapsing administrations of the Napoleonic Wars, but actually the Who? Who? government is a better reference.
    Since there were actually very few governments in the Napoleonic Wars, that wasn't a great reference point. In 1782-83 there were five governments, then Pitt led a 17 year administration to 1801, then Addington held power for a while until Pitt came back in 1804, in 1806 he died and was replaced by Grenville, in 1808-09 Portland was briefly Prime Minister, then he was followed by Perceval until 1812 and finally Liverpool took over until 1827.

    To be totally honest, five governments in twelve years isn't especially 'quick fire.'
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 12,411
    edited February 11

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    Are those the only two alternatives? In any case, realpolitik and the lesson of Suez is that we should not risk military confrontation with a superpower unless we are sure that "our" superpower has our back. The United States Navy sails and flies regularly through disputed areas and can do so without the help of this posturing ninny.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,479
    daodao said:

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    Sucking up to terrorists because he happens to like and admire them isn't 'realistic,' just nasty.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,931

    Is this the modern NHS? 12 year old Granddaughter has a problem. Apparently she’s got an issue about too many teeth, and therefore needs them straightening. So she’s had two out, but now the company which operates orthodontic services in her area has said they’ve lost the NHS orthodontic contract and, ‘Sorry, but that’s it!’ They won't be fitting a brace. Her mother isn't, at the moment, not quite sure what’s going to happen.
    IMHO that’s appalling.

    Very poor, but NHS orthodontics is notoriously problematic. Treatment takes multiple interventions over several years and requires continuity. The more serious stuff with jaw deformities takes very close teamworking with maxillofacial surgeons. It is very difficult to recruit into as orthodontists are much better paid in the private sector. There simply are too few out there.

    It maybe just a financial issue, but I would be suspicious that a contract was ended abruptly mid financial year purely on that basis. There may be either clinical or other issues.

    Certainly the course of treatment needs to be completed. Her parents should write to the Cheif Executive of the CCG.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,214
    edited February 11
    ydoethur said:

    Is this the modern NHS?

    Yes. And there was no need for the 'IMHO.' It is appalling.

    That said I am surprised the treatment was stopped halfway through. More normally in my experience they would have refused to start it, although Foxy would be in a better position to explain than I am.
    I would have thought the commissioners would have insisted on an exit plan to ensure that all existing treatment was completed .My experience wasn't in dental commissioning though
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 23,227

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    ydoethur said:

    daodao said:

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    Sucking up to terrorists because he happens to like and admire them isn't 'realistic,' just nasty.
    It could be argued that the Loto's hostility to some of the blood-soaked criminal regimes in the Middle East is better than the current HMG policy of sucking up to them.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 23,227
    daodao said:

    FPT

    Gavin Williamson again...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6689439/Were-ready-strike-against-Russia-China.html

    Britain's Armed Forces are ready to use 'hard power' against aggressors, Gavin Williamson will declare today.

    The Defence Secretary will say it is time to increase our 'lethality' and warn Russia and China there will be a high price for flouting international law.

    In a speech in London, he will announce the deployment of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier to the Pacific to deter the Chinese.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Idiot.

    If there's one thing that a hard Brexit could achieve, it may be the final puncturing of imperial pretensions. The UK is still prancing on the world stage, but the butcher's apron is threadbare. It would be a comeuppance for the UK and facilitate Scottish independence and Irish re-unification. With the replacement of NATO by a EU armed force, little England (+/- Wales) would need to seek other allies, so unnecessarily antagonising Russia is foolhardy.

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    One can only hope.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 23,227
    daodao said:

    ydoethur said:

    daodao said:

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    Sucking up to terrorists because he happens to like and admire them isn't 'realistic,' just nasty.
    It could be argued that the Loto's hostility to some of the blood-soaked criminal regimes in the Middle East is better than the current HMG policy of sucking up to them.

    HMG actually aid and abet many of them , at least Corbyn is just imagining things.
  • Another entirely predictable Brexit development is UK businesses investing money that could have been spent in the UK on ensuring continued untrammeled access to the single market. But they need us more than we need them. Or something.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/uk-firms-investing-billions-abroad-because-of-brexit-new-cep-research-finds/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,931

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 23,227
    Foxy said:

    Is this the modern NHS? 12 year old Granddaughter has a problem. Apparently she’s got an issue about too many teeth, and therefore needs them straightening. So she’s had two out, but now the company which operates orthodontic services in her area has said they’ve lost the NHS orthodontic contract and, ‘Sorry, but that’s it!’ They won't be fitting a brace. Her mother isn't, at the moment, not quite sure what’s going to happen.
    IMHO that’s appalling.

    Very poor, but NHS orthodontics is notoriously problematic. Treatment takes multiple interventions over several years and requires continuity. The more serious stuff with jaw deformities takes very close teamworking with maxillofacial surgeons. It is very difficult to recruit into as orthodontists are much better paid in the private sector. There simply are too few out there.

    It maybe just a financial issue, but I would be suspicious that a contract was ended abruptly mid financial year purely on that basis. There may be either clinical or other issues.

    Certainly the course of treatment needs to be completed. Her parents should write to the Cheif Executive of the CCG.
    Go private and get it done properly, worth skinning yourself.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 20,488
    daodao said:

    FPT

    Gavin Williamson again...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6689439/Were-ready-strike-against-Russia-China.html

    Britain's Armed Forces are ready to use 'hard power' against aggressors, Gavin Williamson will declare today.

    The Defence Secretary will say it is time to increase our 'lethality' and warn Russia and China there will be a high price for flouting international law.

    In a speech in London, he will announce the deployment of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier to the Pacific to deter the Chinese.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Idiot.

    If there's one thing that a hard Brexit could achieve, it may be the final puncturing of imperial pretensions. The UK is still prancing on the world stage, but the butcher's apron is threadbare. It would be a comeuppance for the UK and facilitate Scottish independence and Irish re-unification. With the replacement of NATO by a EU armed force, little England (+/- Wales) would need to seek other allies, so unnecessarily antagonising Russia is foolhardy.

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    I said a long time ago that the logic of Brexit (insofar as it is) points towards both foreign and economic policies much closer to Corbyn's than anything the Tories could ever offer. Brexit paves the way towards a left wing government not just as a counter-reaction, but also philosophically. Doubtless why Corbyn retains an attraction to the idea.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,931
    ydoethur said:

    daodao said:

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    Sucking up to terrorists because he happens to like and admire them isn't 'realistic,' just nasty.
    Sucking up to the Saudis is at least as bad.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,344
    daodao said:

    ydoethur said:

    daodao said:

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    Sucking up to terrorists because he happens to like and admire them isn't 'realistic,' just nasty.
    It could be argued that the Loto's hostility to some of the blood-soaked criminal regimes in the Middle East is better than the current HMG policy of sucking up to them.

    Our governments just help supply them with weapons and money to kill innocent people and oppress them, it's isn't as if they're like Corbyn...

    You know with the talking...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 20,488

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    I suspect we're playing with demons anyway, regarding China as a potential partners. Chinese statesmanship traditionally has a long memory and 150 or so years ago we bullied the collapsing Empire.
    We need to be careful there.

    When David Cameron spoke to the Dalai Lama it caused British businesses - including ours - no end of trouble in China. That was probably fair enough given Chinese repression in Tibet and the need to make a stand on that. But what Williamson is doing is futile and he is doing it only because he wants to be Tory leader. Given the bridges we are currently burning with the EU and the US (hello Irish American lobby) messing around with the Chinese in their sphere of influence to further the political ambitions of a man-child is absurd.

    Sending a gunboat to China isn't a good look.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332

    Brexit:

    There is no majority for May’s deal.

    There is a majority for May’s deal, subject to it being put to the people.

    There is also probably a majority for Norway plus, now that Corbyn has swung behind it.

    Why not vote: May’s Deal, Corbyn’s Deal, Remain?

    Corbyn backs Customs Union plus single market elements not full Norway Plus, there is also probably a Commons majority for the former, which would make the NI backstop terms apply to GB too thus also being more acceptable to the DUP than the Deal but not the latter
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 2,091
    edited February 11
    Just when things couldn’t get any worse we have the pathetic man child Williamson wxnking off over Brexit.

    To think the nation could have ended up with Tobias Ellwood as Defence Secretary but instead has been subjected to Willamson.

    I’m sure both Russia and China are quaking in their boots at Britain’s new found lethality !!! Brexit the gift that continues to deliver more shame on the UK on a daily basis !
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332
    edited February 11
    daodao said:

    FPT

    Gavin Williamson again...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6689439/Were-ready-strike-against-Russia-China.html

    Britain's Armed Forces are ready to use 'hard power' against aggressors, Gavin Williamson will declare today.

    The Defence Secretary will say it is time to increase our 'lethality' and warn Russia and China there will be a high price for flouting international law.

    In a speech in London, he will announce the deployment of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier to the Pacific to deter the Chinese.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Idiot.

    If there's one thing that a hard Brexit could achieve, it may be the final puncturing of imperial pretensions. The UK is still prancing on the world stage, but the butcher's apron is threadbare. It would be a comeuppance for the UK and facilitate Scottish independence and Irish re-unification. With the replacement of NATO by a EU armed force, little England (+/- Wales) would need to seek other allies, so unnecessarily antagonising Russia is foolhardy.

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    Who has proposed replacing NATO with a European army? For starters NATO includes the US, Canada and Turkey and Norway too, all non EU nations and the UK alongside France is the biggest European contributor to NATO. At most it would run alongside.

    The UK also remains a permanent member of the UN Security Council with a veto and no UN Security Council member can be removed once in place without its consent
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?

    Nope - I am thinking there is no role for a medium-sized European power with one aircraft carrier to play there and that this stunt will significantly harm UK interests.

    International Freedom of Navigation exercises are routinely undertaken in the South China Sea with our allies in the region, most of whom are much smaller than we are.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    Are those the only two alternatives? In any case, realpolitik and the lesson of Suez is that we should not risk military confrontation with a superpower unless we are sure that "our" superpower has our back. The United States Navy sails and flies regularly through disputed areas and can do so without the help of this posturing ninny.
    The USA is one of our closest allies and it’s right we show our support on this matter, not only for them but also for Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan and Japan all of whom are subject to regional intimidation by China.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,535
    Good morning, everyone.

    I think the O'Rourke figure is quite large, given he's only been on the stage, as it were, for less time and without the 2016 run that Sanders had.

    Surprised the women haven't had a bit more. But it's early days yet.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    I suspect we're playing with demons anyway, regarding China as a potential partners. Chinese statesmanship traditionally has a long memory and 150 or so years ago we bullied the collapsing Empire.
    We need to be careful there.

    When David Cameron spoke to the Dalai Lama it caused British businesses - including ours - no end of trouble in China. That was probably fair enough given Chinese repression in Tibet and the need to make a stand on that. But what Williamson is doing is futile and he is doing it only because he wants to be Tory leader. Given the bridges we are currently burning with the EU and the US (hello Irish American lobby) messing around with the Chinese in their sphere of influence to further the political ambitions of a man-child is absurd.

    Yup, we should surrender all our principles to make a quick buck in China.

    That’s definitely the sort of country I want to live in.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332
    edited February 11

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    Are those the only two alternatives? In any case, realpolitik and the lesson of Suez is that we should not risk military confrontation with a superpower unless we are sure that "our" superpower has our back. The United States Navy sails and flies regularly through disputed areas and can do so without the help of this posturing ninny.
    The USA is one of our closest allies and it’s right we show our support on this matter, not only for them but also for Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan and Japan all of whom are subject to regional intimidation by China.
    Even India is not exactly a bosom buddie of China as well
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462
    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    This is routinely cited but it simply isn’t true. We have a permanent base in the Gulf and the Navy routinely sails through the Indian and Pacific oceans, using the bases of allies in the region where necessary. We have a blue water Navy so we have both the ability and the capability.

    Also, we are not at war with China last time I checked.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332
    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    The US already has aircraft carriers like the USS Carl Vinson and the USS George Washington patrolling the South China sea
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 23,227
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    The US already has aircraft carriers like the USS Carl Vinson and the USS George Washington patrolling the South China sea
    UK has more admirals than sailors
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462
    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    The US already has aircraft carriers like the USS Carl Vinson and the USS George Washington patrolling the South China sea
    UK has more admirals than sailors
    The UK navy has 33 000 regular personnel, over 40,000 including reserves and 2 senior Admirals
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,931

    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    This is routinely cited but it simply isn’t true. We have a permanent base in the Gulf and the Navy routinely sails through the Indian and Pacific oceans, using the bases of allies in the region where necessary. We have a blue water Navy so we have both the ability and the capability.

    Also, we are not at war with China last time I checked.
    Occasional flag waving friendly visits are one thing*, but we are only a regional power and the fleet should be in home waters. If we want to project power overseas we need to spend and recruit a lot more on all three branches of the forces. Personally, I would scrap Trident as a start, but we cannot currently sustain a single carrier fleet without allied escorts.

    Putting all our eggs in one basket, and sending it to the other side of the world is not wise.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,318
    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit would make Britain less safe, says police chief

    Officer leading national preparations decries potential loss of EU crime-fighting tools"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/11/no-deal-brexit-would-make-britain-less-safe-says-police-chief

    Damn!

    You’d have thought there would be a way for mature democracies to cooperate on crime fighting without surrendering their independence!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,733

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese.

    What he fails to mention is that the QNLZ Pacific cruise is scheduled for 2021, the air wing will be at least 50% USMC and the strike group numbers are being made up by Dutch and French vessels.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,771
    IanB2 said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    I suspect we're playing with demons anyway, regarding China as a potential partners. Chinese statesmanship traditionally has a long memory and 150 or so years ago we bullied the collapsing Empire.
    We need to be careful there.

    When David Cameron spoke to the Dalai Lama it caused British businesses - including ours - no end of trouble in China. That was probably fair enough given Chinese repression in Tibet and the need to make a stand on that. But what Williamson is doing is futile and he is doing it only because he wants to be Tory leader. Given the bridges we are currently burning with the EU and the US (hello Irish American lobby) messing around with the Chinese in their sphere of influence to further the political ambitions of a man-child is absurd.

    Sending a gunboat to China isn't a good look.
    Opium Wars Redux.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,318

    Is this the modern NHS? 12 year old Granddaughter has a problem. Apparently she’s got an issue about too many teeth, and therefore needs them straightening. So she’s had two out, but now the company which operates orthodontic services in her area has said they’ve lost the NHS orthodontic contract and, ‘Sorry, but that’s it!’ They won't be fitting a brace. Her mother isn't, at the moment, not quite sure what’s going to happen.
    IMHO that’s appalling.

    It’s borderline unethical. Ongoing treatment should be completed (they will claim it’s two separate treatments)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    This is routinely cited but it simply isn’t true. We have a permanent base in the Gulf and the Navy routinely sails through the Indian and Pacific oceans, using the bases of allies in the region where necessary. We have a blue water Navy so we have both the ability and the capability.

    Also, we are not at war with China last time I checked.
    Occasional flag waving friendly visits are one thing*, but we are only a regional power and the fleet should be in home waters. If we want to project power overseas we need to spend and recruit a lot more on all three branches of the forces. Personally, I would scrap Trident as a start, but we cannot currently sustain a single carrier fleet without allied escorts.

    Putting all our eggs in one basket, and sending it to the other side of the world is not wise.
    Scrapping the nuclear deterrent would certainly not be projecting power overseas
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 59,332
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    This is routinely cited but it simply isn’t true. We have a permanent base in the Gulf and the Navy routinely sails through the Indian and Pacific oceans, using the bases of allies in the region where necessary. We have a blue water Navy so we have both the ability and the capability.

    Also, we are not at war with China last time I checked.
    Occasional flag waving friendly visits are one thing*, but we are only a regional power and the fleet should be in home waters. If we want to project power overseas we need to spend and recruit a lot more on all three branches of the forces. Personally, I would scrap Trident as a start, but we cannot currently sustain a single carrier fleet without allied escorts.

    Putting all our eggs in one basket, and sending it to the other side of the world is not wise.
    We will only be doing so in coordination with the US navy who already have a full aircraft carrier fleet in the Pacific and South China sea
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,318
    Did he really switch out the picture for a photo of Churchill

    😖
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,771

    Full KLOBUCHAR announcement speech for my fellow Baemy fans:

    Surely, the Baemy Army?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,942

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Blimey. That’s a full on start to Monday morning. This administration is a basket case. The previous administration was somewhat better with the Lib Dem (we underestimated their influence at the time), but pure Tory government is a textbook example in how not to do it and a reminder on why they have only won a single majority in 27 years.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,771
    Charles said:

    Did he really switch out the picture for a photo of Churchill

    😖
    He wanted that globe painted with more pink too.

    Probably.
  • malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Self-evidently true but the left depend on exaggerating bad news and ignoring good news. We are told that lots of hacks desperate for a different story read this blog. Lets make the suggestion and see where it ends up. "Setting Brexit aside, the present government which took power in 2010 has been the most effective in modern times - discuss"
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,942
    He is clearly quite mad. Yet somehow is in power. Bad times.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,535
    In I, Claudius (which I'm re-watching), Caligula has just had an unorthodox supper.

    So, we could have worse leaders than the incumbents.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 1,107
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Blimey. That’s a full on start to Monday morning. This administration is a basket case. The previous administration was somewhat better with the Lib Dem (we underestimated their influence at the time), but pure Tory government is a textbook example in how not to do it and a reminder on why they have only won a single majority in 27 years.
    Which specific Lib Dems and Lib Dem policies do you think were responiblre for fixing the country's finances?
  • malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Self-evidently true but the left depend on exaggerating bad news and ignoring good news. We are told that lots of hacks desperate for a different story read this blog. Lets make the suggestion and see where it ends up. "Setting Brexit aside, the present government which took power in 2010 has been the most effective in modern times - discuss"
    This is not a left or right thing but the way politics is in general.

    As for your proposition, you cannot set Brexit aside I'm afraid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,771

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Self-evidently true but the left depend on exaggerating bad news and ignoring good news. We are told that lots of hacks desperate for a different story read this blog. Lets make the suggestion and see where it ends up. "Setting Brexit aside, the present government which took power in 2010 has been the most effective in modern times - discuss"
    The tow years of, er, halting progress to implement Brexit has certainly made it nigh on impossible to get good news noticed. The Tories need to get through Brexit, demonstrate that it has not proved the End of Days that so many on here have signed up for, get themselves a new leader - and go on the warpath against Labour rather than each other. Bingo, five more years. Easy-peasy, lemon squeazy.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,942

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Self-evidently true but the left depend on exaggerating bad news and ignoring good news. We are told that lots of hacks desperate for a different story read this blog. Lets make the suggestion and see where it ends up. "Setting Brexit aside, the present government which took power in 2010 has been the most effective in modern times - discuss"
    ROFL.

    Not only is that not true, but you might as well argue that setting aside WW2, Neville Chamberlain was the most successful PM if the C20.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 648
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    The US already has aircraft carriers like the USS Carl Vinson and the USS George Washington patrolling the South China sea
    UK has more admirals than sailors
    The UK navy has 33 000 regular personnel, over 40,000 including reserves and 2 senior Admirals
    We currently have 41 Admirals and 40 ships.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,962
    How did the whole
    KLOBUCHAR thing start?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,942
    Endillion said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Blimey. That’s a full on start to Monday morning. This administration is a basket case. The previous administration was somewhat better with the Lib Dem (we underestimated their influence at the time), but pure Tory government is a textbook example in how not to do it and a reminder on why they have only won a single majority in 27 years.
    Which specific Lib Dems and Lib Dem policies do you think were responiblre for fixing the country's finances?
    The country’s finances are not fixed. The Tories lost our AAA rating and are yet to recover it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,771
    Fenman said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.


    You think the whole of the South China Sea and its international waters should be ceded to China for good?
    We haven't been able to sustain a Naval presence East of Suez for a half century, apart from the odd frigate in the Gulf and Horn of Afica, and we do not have the ability or capability now. Stick to the Atlantic and Mediterranean IMO.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth would meet the fate of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales if not part of an organised battlefleet. It is delusional to think otherwise.
    The US already has aircraft carriers like the USS Carl Vinson and the USS George Washington patrolling the South China sea
    UK has more admirals than sailors
    The UK navy has 33 000 regular personnel, over 40,000 including reserves and 2 senior Admirals
    We currently have 41 Admirals and 40 ships.
    We need a spare admiral, in case one is being refitted.....
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,779
    Endillion said:

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Blimey. That’s a full on start to Monday morning. This administration is a basket case. The previous administration was somewhat better with the Lib Dem (we underestimated their influence at the time), but pure Tory government is a textbook example in how not to do it and a reminder on why they have only won a single majority in 27 years.
    Which specific Lib Dems and Lib Dem policies do you think were responiblre for fixing the country's finances?
    Certainly not the Triple Lock, eh.
  • malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Is this the modern NHS? 12 year old Granddaughter has a problem. Apparently she’s got an issue about too many teeth, and therefore needs them straightening. So she’s had two out, but now the company which operates orthodontic services in her area has said they’ve lost the NHS orthodontic contract and, ‘Sorry, but that’s it!’ They won't be fitting a brace. Her mother isn't, at the moment, not quite sure what’s going to happen.
    IMHO that’s appalling.

    Very poor, but NHS orthodontics is notoriously problematic. Treatment takes multiple interventions over several years and requires continuity. The more serious stuff with jaw deformities takes very close teamworking with maxillofacial surgeons. It is very difficult to recruit into as orthodontists are much better paid in the private sector. There simply are too few out there.

    It maybe just a financial issue, but I would be suspicious that a contract was ended abruptly mid financial year purely on that basis. There may be either clinical or other issues.

    Certainly the course of treatment needs to be completed. Her parents should write to the Cheif Executive of the CCG.
    Go private and get it done properly, worth skinning yourself.
    We can't know the full details. I have to say dental care is a good demonstration that the NHS system does not work and I have to say that outrages me. As someone who had a similar diagnosis as a child my father refused to allow the intervention. Inadvertently he condemned me to a life of people whincing when they saw my teeth. You should complete the intervention now it has begun. Removing the two extra teeth must be right, the straigtening if it is to be done by a brace will probably not work - that is the reality.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,535
    UK to leave on time with no deal falls a little, from 3 to 2.75 (Ladbrokes).

    Six Nations markets aren't up fully (I think next weekend is skipped), but Scotland 2.2 to beat France looks interesting. Also, Wales are 9 for the Triple Crown. Prefer value that to the 2.37 on them beating England (obviously have to hedge or back Ireland versus Wales to go all-green, or just let it ride, if the Welsh win). Not sure if I'll back either, though the Scottish bet appeals more.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Self-evidently true but the left depend on exaggerating bad news and ignoring good news. We are told that lots of hacks desperate for a different story read this blog. Lets make the suggestion and see where it ends up. "Setting Brexit aside, the present government which took power in 2010 has been the most effective in modern times - discuss"
    Only from the PB Tories.


    Only on PB.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,779
    ydoethur said:

    daodao said:

    The Loto's approach to foreign policy is more realistic.

    Sucking up to terrorists because he happens to like and admire them isn't 'realistic,' just nasty.
    What I will say for Corbyn is that his foreign policy stance is at least consistent and predictable. He views the world and all its ills through the simplistic 'Western Imperialism (a broadly-defined term) bad' prism and ruthlessly employs the logic of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'. To that end, he consistently takes the side that does not include the US, UK, France, or Israel, and doesn't care who that allies him with.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,942
    _Anazina_ said:

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Self-evidently true but the left depend on exaggerating bad news and ignoring good news. We are told that lots of hacks desperate for a different story read this blog. Lets make the suggestion and see where it ends up. "Setting Brexit aside, the present government which took power in 2010 has been the most effective in modern times - discuss"
    Only from the PB Tories.


    Only on PB.
    It’s rather wonderful, the triumph of the human spirit over reality. Like an octogenarian lothario putting his teeth in, adjusting his toupee and out chasing the ladies again.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,733
    I will say this for The Fireplace Salesman: he does have one discernible talent. That talent is the ability to announce the same things in ever more grandiloquent terms of the passage of many months. The QNLZ 2021 Pacific deployment has been public knowledge for at least a year. It is not something he dreamed up last night while enjoying auto-erotic asphyxiation while watching In Which We Server.

    On this deployment the QNLZ will not be going within 500nm of any disputed Chinese waters. That is absolutely 100% guaranteed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462
    Charles said:

    Did he really switch out the picture for a photo of Churchill

    😖
    I agree Gavin Williamson is a prat.

    That’s not the issue here.
  • So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    I suspect we're playing with demons anyway, regarding China as a potential partners. Chinese statesmanship traditionally has a long memory and 150 or so years ago we bullied the collapsing Empire.
    We need to be careful there.

    When David Cameron spoke to the Dalai Lama it caused British businesses - including ours - no end of trouble in China. That was probably fair enough given Chinese repression in Tibet and the need to make a stand on that. But what Williamson is doing is futile and he is doing it only because he wants to be Tory leader. Given the bridges we are currently burning with the EU and the US (hello Irish American lobby) messing around with the Chinese in their sphere of influence to further the political ambitions of a man-child is absurd.

    Yup, we should surrender all our principles to make a quick buck in China.

    That’s definitely the sort of country I want to live in.

    It’s the one you’re going to get.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,318

    How did the whole
    KLOBUCHAR thing start?

    With a blizzard of publicity
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Blimey. That’s a full on start to Monday morning. This administration is a basket case. The previous administration was somewhat better with the Lib Dem (we underestimated their influence at the time), but pure Tory government is a textbook example in how not to do it and a reminder on why they have only won a single majority in 27 years.
    I like you Jonathan, and you’re a lifelong Labour Party member, and an enthusiastic one at that.

    To be fair, you’re never going to be the first on the barricades to defend the Government and sing its praises.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    I suspect we're playing with demons anyway, regarding China as a potential partners. Chinese statesmanship traditionally has a long memory and 150 or so years ago we bullied the collapsing Empire.
    We need to be careful there.

    When David Cameron spoke to the Dalai Lama it caused British businesses - including ours - no end of trouble in China. That was probably fair enough given Chinese repression in Tibet and the need to make a stand on that. But what Williamson is doing is futile and he is doing it only because he wants to be Tory leader. Given the bridges we are currently burning with the EU and the US (hello Irish American lobby) messing around with the Chinese in their sphere of influence to further the political ambitions of a man-child is absurd.

    Yup, we should surrender all our principles to make a quick buck in China.

    That’s definitely the sort of country I want to live in.

    It’s the one you’re going to get.

    I don’t share your fatalism.

    Sorry.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 13,585
    Charles said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit would make Britain less safe, says police chief

    Officer leading national preparations decries potential loss of EU crime-fighting tools"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/11/no-deal-brexit-would-make-britain-less-safe-says-police-chief

    Damn!

    You’d have thought there would be a way for mature democracies to cooperate on crime fighting without surrendering their independence!
    So any Brexit other than no deal is "surrendering independence".
    A patently absurd position to take.

    The point clearly being made is that a severe unplanned dislocation of current arrangements will have consequences.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,942

    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Blimey. That’s a full on start to Monday morning. This administration is a basket case. The previous administration was somewhat better with the Lib Dem (we underestimated their influence at the time), but pure Tory government is a textbook example in how not to do it and a reminder on why they have only won a single majority in 27 years.
    I like you Jonathan, and you’re a lifelong Labour Party member, and an enthusiastic one at that.

    To be fair, you’re never going to be the first on the barricades to defend the Government and sing its praises.
    The fact you say there are barricades says it all really.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,462
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    So man-child Gavin Williamson is playing the tough guy because he wants to be Tory leader. Anyone who thinks the Chinese will regard sending the UK’s only aircraft carrier to the Pacific as a show of strength knows absolutely nothing about the Chinese. They will consider it a pointless provocation from an ex-imperial power that used to dictate to China but never will again. And they will take it out on British businesses.

    How on esrth have we ended up with a cabinet containing the likes of Williamson, Grayling, Fox, Leadsom, etc? The Tories have absolutely nothing to offer this country. My God, we’re in the do-do.

    This truly is the worst administration since the early 1800s, when the Cabinet was decided by whether you were someone’s uncle, and if you went to the right drinking club.

    A Ministry of all the Shits.
    Whatever administration happens to be in power it will never be short of commentators who say, “this is the worst administration since De Montfort”, or similar, as the objective is to generate a call to action for its removal and replacement.

    It’s just about the most cliched thing in politics there is.
    Though very accurate in this instance
    I don’t think so. This administration has successfully dealt with one of the biggest fiscal crises the UK state has ever faced, and created the lowest unemployment in over 40 years. The education reforms have been a success, the pension reforms popular, and we’ve turned the corner on new housing builds. We are even now in a position to invest significantly more resources in the NHS.

    I consider it a success.
    Self-evidently true but the left depend on exaggerating bad news and ignoring good news. We are told that lots of hacks desperate for a different story read this blog. Lets make the suggestion and see where it ends up. "Setting Brexit aside, the present government which took power in 2010 has been the most effective in modern times - discuss"
    ROFL.

    Not only is that not true, but you might as well argue that setting aside WW2, Neville Chamberlain was the most successful PM if the C20.
    It’s good to test your prejudices by considering the merits of the counter argument.

    Obviously, that doesn’t include ad hominem.
This discussion has been closed.