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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The prospects for The Independent Group

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited February 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The prospects for The Independent Group

Photo du Jour: Members of the Independent Group pose for photographs after the announcement that three Tory MPs have joined them. By Stefan Rousseau/PA pic.twitter.com/Uihugvm3o7

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    I love that jam line.
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    Primus inter pares time?
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    edited February 2019
    Third... like Labour?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Primus inter pares time?

    Judge led inquiry needed.

    The penalty for stealing a first is to watch 37 repeats of Solo while eating pineapple pizza.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Third... like Labour?

    Third in a field of two, like Labour in the polls if nothing changes.
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    ydoethur said:

    Primus inter pares time?

    Judge led inquiry needed.

    The penalty for stealing a first is to watch 37 repeats of Solo while eating pineapple pizza.
    I prefer to think of it as a reward for editing PB this afternoon.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    It's rather simplistic to say Lloyd George and Asquith 'patched up their differences.' They agreed to be members of the same party organisation in 1923, but they spent most of the next four years attacking each other. It would have gone on longer had Asquith not been driven out of politics altogether by illness, an even more than usually cack-handed response to the General Strike and Lloyd George working in concert.
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    Who knows how this will end? Anything from nothing much at all to a complete re-jig of the political landscape is possible.

    Rather more urgent at the moment is to assess how the splintering impacts on the Brexit outcome. TBH I'm not at the moment of the view that it makes much difference. The defectors will go through the lobbies as independents rather than as rebels, but I think they'll go through the same lobbies as they would have done anyway.

    What might change that is if there really is a mass defection (or rather, two mass defections). If they were a group (and especially a reasonably coherent group, on Brexit at least) of a 100 MPs or so, then that would definitely change the short-term Brexit landscape.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    Primus inter pares time?

    Judge led inquiry needed.

    The penalty for stealing a first is to watch 37 repeats of Solo while eating pineapple pizza.
    I prefer to think of it as a reward for editing PB this afternoon.
    Watching Solo and eating pineapple pizza is a reward?

    I thought you preferred the old dominatrices fro your, umm, more extreme rewards.
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    Meanwhile, here's a laugh from the previous thread:

    But McDonnell went further, calling on the government to consider stripping [British citizens who served in the Israeli army] of their citizenship altogether.

    "I am aware of the Government’s policy of detaining and prosecuting those British citizens travelling to fight in the current Middle East conflicts," he wrote. "I am writing to ask if you are aware of how many British citizens are currently fighting with, or are intending to join, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) in and around the Gaza Strip? Will you be making the necessary arrangements to assess the numbers involved?"

    The letter, which was written in July 2014, at the height of Israel's war with terrorists in Gaza, went on to ask: "Will you be warning any British citizens considering engagement with the IDF that, in line with established British Government practice (e.g. the deprivation of British citizenship from, to date, at least 40 UK passport holders who have been involved in the Syrian civil war), such engagement may put their British citizenship in jeopardy?

    "Given the seriousness of the current situation in Gaza and the apparent escalation of the Israeli attacks on Palestinians, I urge you to address these questions promptly so that any British citizen currently participating or planning to participate in these attacks is warned of the potential consequences and thus may be deterred from acting in this way."


    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/200729
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    " If in the meantime TIG have managed to re-establish the voice of metropolitan pragmatic centrism in British politics, they should regard that as a profound success."

    Dear god. Self awareness doth not overfloweth.

    Therein lies the problem. The triggers aka the Hiroo Onodas of the Brexit referendum have found a party where they can pretend they are on a jungle covered island in which they can fight an irrelevant guerrilla war against peaceful peasants for the next 30 years.

    A party free of policy - but rich in signalling virtue.

    Ideal for retweets, likes and er not much else.

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    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:
    Will they accept a unicorn instead ?
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    They are just a bunch of sad Remoaners harking-back to a golden age of the EU- that never was.
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    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    she needs WA votes more than confidence votes
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    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Primus inter pares time?

    Judge led inquiry needed.

    The penalty for stealing a first is to watch 37 repeats of Solo while eating pineapple pizza.
    I prefer to think of it as a reward for editing PB this afternoon.
    Watching Solo and eating pineapple pizza is a reward?

    I thought you preferred the old dominatrices fro your, umm, more extreme rewards.
    Six months worth of gardening leave sounds fun, the reality of it is somewhat different.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Meanwhile, here's a laugh from the previous thread:

    But McDonnell went further, calling on the government to consider stripping [British citizens who served in the Israeli army] of their citizenship altogether.

    "I am aware of the Government’s policy of detaining and prosecuting those British citizens travelling to fight in the current Middle East conflicts," he wrote. "I am writing to ask if you are aware of how many British citizens are currently fighting with, or are intending to join, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) in and around the Gaza Strip? Will you be making the necessary arrangements to assess the numbers involved?"

    The letter, which was written in July 2014, at the height of Israel's war with terrorists in Gaza, went on to ask: "Will you be warning any British citizens considering engagement with the IDF that, in line with established British Government practice (e.g. the deprivation of British citizenship from, to date, at least 40 UK passport holders who have been involved in the Syrian civil war), such engagement may put their British citizenship in jeopardy?

    "Given the seriousness of the current situation in Gaza and the apparent escalation of the Israeli attacks on Palestinians, I urge you to address these questions promptly so that any British citizen currently participating or planning to participate in these attacks is warned of the potential consequences and thus may be deterred from acting in this way."


    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/200729

    A couple of minor, but important differences are overlooked there. An Israeli citizen in Israel is compelled by law to join the IDF if asked, regardless of what other citizenship they hold. The only way to avoid that is by moving to another country (as for example Ahron Bregman did). Leaving aside the further minor detail that Israel so far as I know is not at war with us or any of our allies.

    Those who go to fight with Daesh are making a conscious choice to join an independent terrorist organisation that has carried out attacks in this country.

    If Macdonnell can't see the difference, he's a fool. If he can and doesn't care, he's a liar.

    And I have never thought he's a fool.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Primus inter pares time?

    Judge led inquiry needed.

    The penalty for stealing a first is to watch 37 repeats of Solo while eating pineapple pizza.
    I prefer to think of it as a reward for editing PB this afternoon.
    Watching Solo and eating pineapple pizza is a reward?

    I thought you preferred the old dominatrices fro your, umm, more extreme rewards.
    Six months worth of gardening leave sounds fun, the reality of it is somewhat different.
    Imagine three years of it without pay.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    TIG has a new twitter feed for activists and councillors with an appeal for joiners @IndyCouncilGrp
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    blueburn said:

    They are just a bunch of sad Remoaners harking-back to a golden age of the EU- that never was.

    ^^ this.

    Harking back to the days of the (EU) Empire. Britain needs to look to the future not a backward vision.
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    IanB2 said:

    TIG has a new twitter feed for activists and councillors with an appeal for joiners @IndyCouncilGrp

    Interesting. I see one Labour district councillor in our area, who I suspect may be on the verge of jumping ship, is already following them.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    ydoethur said:

    Primus inter pares time?

    Judge led inquiry needed.

    The penalty for stealing a first is to watch 37 repeats of Solo while eating pineapple pizza.
    All baseball fans know that you can't really steal first.
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    IanB2 said:

    TIG has a new twitter feed for activists and councillors with an appeal for joiners @IndyCouncilGrp

    Why, do they need someone to knock together a platform ?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    Who knows how this will end? Anything from nothing much at all to a complete re-jig of the political landscape is possible.

    Rather more urgent at the moment is to assess how the splintering impacts on the Brexit outcome. TBH I'm not at the moment of the view that it makes much difference. The defectors will go through the lobbies as independents rather than as rebels, but I think they'll go through the same lobbies as they would have done anyway.

    What might change that is if there really is a mass defection (or rather, two mass defections). If they were a group (and especially a reasonably coherent group, on Brexit at least) of a 100 MPs or so, then that would definitely change the short-term Brexit landscape.

    There is a change in the psychology, with both May and Corbyn anxious to stem the flow of further remainers. And already signs within both parties that this is having some effect, with rumour of a new Brexit shift from Labour and May's meeting with ministers.
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    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/JenWilliamsMEN/status/1098608969944367104

    twitter.com/JenWilliamsMEN/status/1098609496522477568

    I hear Brenda from Bristol likes a trip to Spain in October for a week of cheap sunshine...she is going to be mighty pissed.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    IanB2 said:

    TIG has a new twitter feed for activists and councillors with an appeal for joiners @IndyCouncilGrp

    Are they looking to construct a cabinet?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Some information on Newport West, admittedly three months old:

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17206384.the-politics-file-whos-next-as-mps-three-decade-reign-comes-to-an-end/

    More recent information here:

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17387490.conservatives-choose-newport-councillor-matthew-evans-as-mp-candidate/

    And here:

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17422436.plaid-select-their-newport-west-parliamentary-candidate/

    And here:

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17387647.ruth-jones-picked-as-labours-mp-candidate-for-the-third-time/

    My instinctive answer is that Labour should still win in this field but Plaid and the Greens might eat into the majority, especially as the Tories haven't made the same dumb mistake of dropping in an outsider they made two years ago.
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    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
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    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    she needs WA votes more than confidence votes
    Considering Soubry et al would rather reject her deal than remove no deal off the table by accepting a deal, they don't seem like any more reliable partners than the DUP.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    TIG has a new twitter feed for activists and councillors with an appeal for joiners @IndyCouncilGrp

    Are they looking to construct a cabinet?
    It's nailed on.

    Have a good afternoon.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    It's been underway for over two years, led by those prominent politicians who backed it without the faintest clue how they intended to bring it about.
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    ydoethur said:

    It's rather simplistic to say Lloyd George and Asquith 'patched up their differences.' They agreed to be members of the same party organisation in 1923, but they spent most of the next four years attacking each other. It would have gone on longer had Asquith not been driven out of politics altogether by illness, an even more than usually cack-handed response to the General Strike and Lloyd George working in concert.

    Nor is "the division of the Liberals in 1916 over personality" right is it? Far more to it than personality. The prosecution of the war was failing.

    Overwise, enjoyed the header, excellent to have some thoughts on what happens next.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kjohnw said:

    The betrayal of brexit is well under way.

    The only thing "betraying" Brexit is Reality.
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    General election please
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Primus inter pares time?

    Judge led inquiry needed.

    The penalty for stealing a first is to watch 37 repeats of Solo while eating pineapple pizza.
    All baseball fans know that you can't really steal first.
    Pedant's alert!
    Uncaught third strike. Not a stolen base technically, but the same thing in practice.
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    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
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    I enjoyed Polly saying with disgust that Anna Soubry is unrepentant about supporting sound public finances. The horror of it!
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    What terrifies the Cult, at least those that even think about politics rather than worship, is that if TIG is a Blairite retread, they might find that Blair and the third way was far more popular than they allow themselves to remember.
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    kjohnw said:

    General election please

    And what would be in the Conservative manifesto on Brexit?
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    IanB2 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    It's been underway for over two years, led by those prominent politicians who backed it without the faintest clue how they intended to bring it about.
    Er...no....It's been led by an incompetent Remainer, Theresa May.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
    The solution to every problem isn't to bang your head on the wall even harder.
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    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
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    kjohnw said:

    General election please

    And what would be in the Conservative manifesto on Brexit?
    Well she doesn't need to pander to the Soubryite die hards anymore ;)
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    General election please

    And what would be in the Conservative manifesto on Brexit?
    To honour the decision taken by 17.4 million people to leave the EU
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    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    General election please

    And what would be in the Conservative manifesto on Brexit?
    To honour the decision taken by 17.4 million people to leave the EU
    Which has to mean the deal. So how does that help, exactly? Even if she gets a better result than in 2017, it's not going to be a landslide. The ERG and other assorted nutjobs still vote it down.
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    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
    No she hasn't. Even at the last vote she said it was "my deal or you risk no deal, or risk no Brexit".

    That is like saying to a child "do you homework, or you risk having to go outside and play sport, or having to stay in your room and play computer games".

    The reality is the deal is not what most MPs [outside payroll votes] want. They want to either go outside, or play inside. Those who want to go outside are hearing that's an option, those happy to stay inside are hearing that's an option.

    The deal needs to be put as a binary choice and then Parliament needs to make a binary choice. Deal or no deal. Until that happens people will continue to reject the deal while still saying they oppose no deal.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Voters can't betray themselves. If the people still want to leave, they will have the opportunity to cast their votes along with everyone else.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2019

    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
    No she hasn't. Even at the last vote she said it was "my deal or you risk no deal, or risk no Brexit".

    That is like saying to a child "do you homework, or you risk having to go outside and play sport, or having to stay in your room and play computer games".

    The reality is the deal is not what most MPs [outside payroll votes] want. They want to either go outside, or play inside. Those who want to go outside are hearing that's an option, those happy to stay inside are hearing that's an option.

    The deal needs to be put as a binary choice and then Parliament needs to make a binary choice. Deal or no deal. Until that happens people will continue to reject the deal while still saying they oppose no deal.
    Sorry to bring some reality into this, but she hasn't got the power to force MPs to vote between two options, as events since November have proven. I expect the Cooper amendment will pass next week.
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    IanB2 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
    The solution to every problem isn't to bang your head on the wall even harder.
    It won't be even harder, it will be forcing a choice.

    Currently everyone has their own pretend deal they back (like I like many Tories back a revised deal minus the backstop), Labour backs their own pretend deal that also doesn't exist, Tigger extremists back neither no deal nor any other deal. Only the ERG out of all those who've rejected the deal are honest enough to say they're OK with no deal.

    Let the Tiggers make a real choice. You can have no deal, or this deal. Time's up. Decide now.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    Who knows how this will end? Anything from nothing much at all to a complete re-jig of the political landscape is possible.

    Rather more urgent at the moment is to assess how the splintering impacts on the Brexit outcome. TBH I'm not at the moment of the view that it makes much difference. The defectors will go through the lobbies as independents rather than as rebels, but I think they'll go through the same lobbies as they would have done anyway.

    What might change that is if there really is a mass defection (or rather, two mass defections). If they were a group (and especially a reasonably coherent group, on Brexit at least) of a 100 MPs or so, then that would definitely change the short-term Brexit landscape.

    It seems to me that the Tiggers might be more amenable to the deal if no deal is the alternative than Labour itself seems to be and that might just help.
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    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
    No she hasn't. Even at the last vote she said it was "my deal or you risk no deal, or risk no Brexit".

    That is like saying to a child "do you homework, or you risk having to go outside and play sport, or having to stay in your room and play computer games".

    The reality is the deal is not what most MPs [outside payroll votes] want. They want to either go outside, or play inside. Those who want to go outside are hearing that's an option, those happy to stay inside are hearing that's an option.

    The deal needs to be put as a binary choice and then Parliament needs to make a binary choice. Deal or no deal. Until that happens people will continue to reject the deal while still saying they oppose no deal.
    Sorry to bring some reality into this, but she hasn't got the power to force MPs to vote between two options, as events since November have proven. I expect the Cooper amendment will pass next week.
    So we kick the can and have the European Elections. Great, and then what?

    If we're going to kick the can, we should kick out May (however that's possible) and say we need a new deal and we're only kicking the can in order to renegotiate a new one. Otherwise it serves no purpose.
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    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
    No she hasn't. Even at the last vote she said it was "my deal or you risk no deal, or risk no Brexit".

    That is like saying to a child "do you homework, or you risk having to go outside and play sport, or having to stay in your room and play computer games".

    The reality is the deal is not what most MPs [outside payroll votes] want. They want to either go outside, or play inside. Those who want to go outside are hearing that's an option, those happy to stay inside are hearing that's an option.

    The deal needs to be put as a binary choice and then Parliament needs to make a binary choice. Deal or no deal. Until that happens people will continue to reject the deal while still saying they oppose no deal.
    Sorry to bring some reality into this, but she hasn't got the power to force MPs to vote between two options, as events since November have proven. I expect the Cooper amendment will pass next week.
    So we kick the can and have the European Elections. Great, and then what?

    If we're going to kick the can, we should kick out May (however that's possible) and say we need a new deal and we're only kicking the can in order to renegotiate a new one. Otherwise it serves no purpose.
    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.
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    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
    No she hasn't. Those MPs who have left the Tories were never in a million years going to vote for anything that meant we actually left the EU.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    It will be interesting to see how brave they want to be.

    Evidence based policy might result in the legalisation of drugs as per Portugal rather fighting on forlornly in a war we can't win.

    Evidence based policy might conclude that free TV licences for the older population are pretty ridiculous when they are the only ones left watching the BBC.

    Evidence based policy might suggest that a tax system which taxes dividend income at a lower rate than NMW earnings is in need of reform.

    I could go on but how many groups are they willing to upset?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2019

    No she hasn't. Those MPs who have left the Tories were never in a million years going to vote for anything that meant we actually left the EU.

    So how exactly does that make it easier for Theresa May to force MPs to choose between the deal and no deal?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2019
    O/T

    It's amazing what people will do to make themselves look virtuous.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47311145

    "US actor Jussie Smollett staged a fake attack on himself because he was "dissatisfied with his salary", according to Chicago Police."
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    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    There is a point of blaming May, she is the one in charge, the buck stops here.

    More than that she is the one who didn't try and take Parliament along with her, she is the one who fought against then conceded on the backstop knowing her own MPs hated it. She is the one who who cancelled the December vote. She is the one who's refused to insist the WA gets reopened. She is the one who hasn't even tried to frame it as a binary vote.

    Parliament last time rejected Cooper-Boles and May still keeps banging on about "the risk of no deal, or no Brexit" and hasn't even tried to take one option off the table.

    She could have said that it was deal or no deal. Parliament may then override her but that would be their choice, so far that hasn't happened.

    Or she could have said it was deal or no Brexit. Parliament may have still not listened to her, but again that would be their choice that hasn't happened.

    Instead May has kept every option on the table and is threatening MPs with what they want may happen if they reject her deal. So MPs are acting quite frankly rationally by rejecting her deal to see what they want which is what she's threatnening them with!
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    No she hasn't. Those MPs who have left the Tories were never in a million years going to vote for anything that meant we actually left the EU.

    So how exactly does that make it easier for Theresa May to force MPs to choose between the deal and no deal?
    I haven't said it made it any easier. I was just disputing your claim it had got harder. It makes absolutely no difference. 3 MPs who were always going to vote against any means for us to leave the EU are still right there and will continue to vote in exactly the same way except from a different part of the chamber.
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    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    There is a point of blaming May, she is the one in charge, the buck stops here.

    More than that she is the one who didn't try and take Parliament along with her, she is the one who fought against then conceded on the backstop knowing her own MPs hated it. She is the one who who cancelled the December vote. She is the one who's refused to insist the WA gets reopened. She is the one who hasn't even tried to frame it as a binary vote.

    Parliament last time rejected Cooper-Boles and May still keeps banging on about "the risk of no deal, or no Brexit" and hasn't even tried to take one option off the table.

    She could have said that it was deal or no deal. Parliament may then override her but that would be their choice, so far that hasn't happened.

    Or she could have said it was deal or no Brexit. Parliament may have still not listened to her, but again that would be their choice that hasn't happened.

    Instead May has kept every option on the table and is threatening MPs with what they want may happen if they reject her deal. So MPs are acting quite frankly rationally by rejecting her deal to see what they want which is what she's threatnening them with!
    I think if the buck stopped here, as in right here, as in with PB, May's deal would have overwhelmingly passed last November and the country would have some idea what they were doing in April. Unfortunately for this benighted country, it doesn't.
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Voters can't betray themselves. If the people still want to leave, they will have the opportunity to cast their votes along with everyone else.
    We took that choice in 2016, we voted out . It’s not been implemented yet. Democracy needs to be honoured . You don’t have a general election every time the opinion polls change
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    DavidL said:

    It will be interesting to see how brave they want to be.

    Evidence based policy might result in the legalisation of drugs as per Portugal rather fighting on forlornly in a war we can't win.

    Evidence based policy might conclude that free TV licences for the older population are pretty ridiculous when they are the only ones left watching the BBC.

    Evidence based policy might suggest that a tax system which taxes dividend income at a lower rate than NMW earnings is in need of reform.

    I could go on but how many groups are they willing to upset?

    People like the idea of evidence, because they like the idea that their opinion is proved right - and therefore that they don't need to argue for it, just present the "evidence".

    They do not like the experience of evidence, because it means having to change deep and long held views in response. No-one likes to change their mind.

    If we were honest that most political argument was about values, rather than evidence, then we might have better arguments.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495

    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
    No she hasn't. Even at the last vote she said it was "my deal or you risk no deal, or risk no Brexit".

    That is like saying to a child "do you homework, or you risk having to go outside and play sport, or having to stay in your room and play computer games".

    The reality is the deal is not what most MPs [outside payroll votes] want. They want to either go outside, or play inside. Those who want to go outside are hearing that's an option, those happy to stay inside are hearing that's an option.

    The deal needs to be put as a binary choice and then Parliament needs to make a binary choice. Deal or no deal. Until that happens people will continue to reject the deal while still saying they oppose no deal.
    Sorry to bring some reality into this, but she hasn't got the power to force MPs to vote between two options, as events since November have proven. I expect the Cooper amendment will pass next week.
    In mid to late March the perception may well be that the only choices are TM's deal (in whatever form that then is) or no deal, as leaving is written into both UK law and Art 50 and there is hardly time to change the law - even if you could be sure it would pass - before 29th March. In that sense of course TM is running down the clock, but unwillingly as the deal she backed has been delayed/rejected.

    If it looks like a binary choice then, then it will be; and I think it will pass. Because at that point TM will have the power to force a choice between two options. Until then almost everyone is in Micawber's position of waiting for something to turn up. I don't think anything will.

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2019
    With a possible by-election in Peterborough in the offing, guess which town or city has been voted the worst in the country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6728839/Englands-WORST-place-live-Peterborough-tops-insalubrious-list-cr-p-towns.html
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    TBH Corbyn will probably be onto a loser when the Daily Mail aren't attacking him.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    algarkirk said:

    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.

    She's tried that, and she now has even fewer MPs to try to get it through.
    No she hasn't. Even at the last vote she said it was "my deal or you risk no deal, or risk no Brexit".

    That is like saying to a child "do you homework, or you risk having to go outside and play sport, or having to stay in your room and play computer games".

    The reality is the deal is not what most MPs [outside payroll votes] want. They want to either go outside, or play inside. Those who want to go outside are hearing that's an option, those happy to stay inside are hearing that's an option.

    The deal needs to be put as a binary choice and then Parliament needs to make a binary choice. Deal or no deal. Until that happens people will continue to reject the deal while still saying they oppose no deal.
    Sorry to bring some reality into this, but she hasn't got the power to force MPs to vote between two options, as events since November have proven. I expect the Cooper amendment will pass next week.
    In mid to late March the perception may well be that the only choices are TM's deal (in whatever form that then is) or no deal, as leaving is written into both UK law and Art 50 and there is hardly time to change the law - even if you could be sure it would pass - before 29th March. In that sense of course TM is running down the clock, but unwillingly as the deal she backed has been delayed/rejected.

    If it looks like a binary choice then, then it will be; and I think it will pass. Because at that point TM will have the power to force a choice between two options. Until then almost everyone is in Micawber's position of waiting for something to turn up. I don't think anything will.
    As it gets close the deadline, the more tangible binary choice is between no deal and revocation, given that a deal would most likely need an extension to allow time to pass the legislation.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:

    It will be interesting to see how brave they want to be.

    Evidence based policy might result in the legalisation of drugs as per Portugal rather fighting on forlornly in a war we can't win.

    Evidence based policy might conclude that free TV licences for the older population are pretty ridiculous when they are the only ones left watching the BBC.

    Evidence based policy might suggest that a tax system which taxes dividend income at a lower rate than NMW earnings is in need of reform.

    I could go on but how many groups are they willing to upset?

    People like the idea of evidence, because they like the idea that their opinion is proved right - and therefore that they don't need to argue for it, just present the "evidence".

    They do not like the experience of evidence, because it means having to change deep and long held views in response. No-one likes to change their mind.

    If we were honest that most political argument was about values, rather than evidence, then we might have better arguments.
    In court case analysis we use good facts and bad facts. Which at least has some degree of honesty and realism about it.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2019


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    I don't think so, actually. I think the highly efficient Steve Baker trashing operation poisoned the well early on, causing more moderate MPs to decide they didn't like it either. Meanwhile, those who supported Remain but wanted to respect the referendum result found themselves in a position where the Brexiteers were acting in bad faith and trying to crash us out in chaos. Of course in that scenario, where we can't have an orderly exit, it's better to revoke Article 50 altogether, and the ERG (and Boris and Farage) gave them a perfect argument to justify it by saying the deal was worse than remaining in the EU. Well, OK......
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    TBH Corbyn will probably be onto a loser when the Daily Mail aren't attacking him.
    The Daily Mail has just quoted him in that snippet.

    There's no attack, the fact you think quoting Corbyn's own words is an attack speaks volumes.
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    As it gets close the deadline, the more tangible binary choice is between no deal and revocation, given that a deal would most likely need an extension to allow time to pass the legislation.

    An extension to pass legislation wouldn't be a problem since the real deadline as we all know is 1 July. Once a deal has been agreed in principle, a short extension to dot the i's and cross the t's is a mere formality.

    The spanner is Cooper-Boles which achieves nothing and just drags the uncertainty on for months more. It is the worst possible thing to be done as it is no answer at all.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    AndyJS said:

    With a possible by-election in Peterborough in the offing, guess which town or city has been voted the worst in the country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6728839/Englands-WORST-place-live-Peterborough-tops-insalubrious-list-cr-p-towns.html

    The rural north does well in the best table whereas the urban north almost cleans up in the worst.
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    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
    That is not going to happen after next week when the HOC will take no deal off the table
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    I don't think so, actually. I think the highly efficient Steve Baker trashing operation poisoned the well early on, causing more moderate MPs to decide they didn't like it either. Meanwhile, those who supported Remain but wanted to respect the referendum result found themselves in a position where the Brexiteers were acting in bad faith and trying to crash us out in chaos. Of course in that scenario, where we can't have an orderly exit, it's better to revoke Article 50 altogether, and the ERG (and Boris and Farage) gave them a perfect argument to justify it by saying the deal was worse than remaining in the EU. Well, OK......
    It's only "ok" if you accept their judgment. And who would do that?
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    blueblueblueblue Posts: 875

    TBH Corbyn will probably be onto a loser when the Daily Mail aren't attacking him.
    So how popular do you think his stance is in the Labour heartlands, let alone marginals and Tory seats? I hope Jezza trumpets this particular policy from the rooftops, especially at election time.
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    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    I don't think so, actually. I think the highly efficient Steve Baker trashing operation poisoned the well early on, causing more moderate MPs to decide they didn't like it either. Meanwhile, those who supported Remain but wanted to respect the referendum result found themselves in a position where the Brexiteers were acting in bad faith and trying to crash us out in chaos. Of course in that scenario, where we can't have an orderly exit, it's better to revoke Article 50 altogether, and the ERG (and Boris and Farage) gave them a perfect argument to justify it by saying the deal was worse than remaining in the EU. Well, OK......
    Labour, Lib Dems and assorted others were opposing because they put party over country.
    SNP are opposing because they don't want to be part of this country and chaos suits them.
    DUP oppose because it goes against their very core.
    Hardcore [former] Tory extremists like Soubry, Grieve et al oppose any deal.

    So where are the votes to come from to see the WA over the line even if it was backed by Baker etc?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    The Dreamainers still think they hold all the cards.....
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    DavidL said:


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    I don't think so, actually. I think the highly efficient Steve Baker trashing operation poisoned the well early on, causing more moderate MPs to decide they didn't like it either. Meanwhile, those who supported Remain but wanted to respect the referendum result found themselves in a position where the Brexiteers were acting in bad faith and trying to crash us out in chaos. Of course in that scenario, where we can't have an orderly exit, it's better to revoke Article 50 altogether, and the ERG (and Boris and Farage) gave them a perfect argument to justify it by saying the deal was worse than remaining in the EU. Well, OK......
    It's only "ok" if you accept their judgment. And who would do that?
    Well, if those who pushed for Leave don't like Leave, then why on earth should those who wanted to Remain continue to go along with it?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    On slightly less positive news the Scottish budget is likely to be approved in about half an hour and the premium I have to pay for living and working in Scotland as opposed to England will increase by another £400 or so. Hey ho. No doubt international investors will come flooding in now.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    DavidL said:

    On slightly less positive news the Scottish budget is likely to be approved in about half an hour and the premium I have to pay for living and working in Scotland as opposed to England will increase by another £400 or so. Hey ho. No doubt international investors will come flooding in now.

    You think bribing the sun to show its face in Scotland comes cheap?
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    DavidL said:


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    I don't think so, actually. I think the highly efficient Steve Baker trashing operation poisoned the well early on, causing more moderate MPs to decide they didn't like it either. Meanwhile, those who supported Remain but wanted to respect the referendum result found themselves in a position where the Brexiteers were acting in bad faith and trying to crash us out in chaos. Of course in that scenario, where we can't have an orderly exit, it's better to revoke Article 50 altogether, and the ERG (and Boris and Farage) gave them a perfect argument to justify it by saying the deal was worse than remaining in the EU. Well, OK......
    It's only "ok" if you accept their judgment. And who would do that?
    Well, if those who pushed for Leave don't like Leave, then why on earth should those who wanted to Remain continue to go along with it?
    Except almost every formerly-Remain Tory is still going along with it. Because its a very soft Brexit.

    The opposition is coming from hardcore extreme Remain Tories who number less than a dozen and aren't shifted by the ERG, and the opposition benches who are playing party politics or have their own priorities.

    Remain Tories are remaining remarkably loyal by and large.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    I don't think so, actually. I think the highly efficient Steve Baker trashing operation poisoned the well early on, causing more moderate MPs to decide they didn't like it either. Meanwhile, those who supported Remain but wanted to respect the referendum result found themselves in a position where the Brexiteers were acting in bad faith and trying to crash us out in chaos. Of course in that scenario, where we can't have an orderly exit, it's better to revoke Article 50 altogether, and the ERG (and Boris and Farage) gave them a perfect argument to justify it by saying the deal was worse than remaining in the EU. Well, OK......
    It's only "ok" if you accept their judgment. And who would do that?
    Well, if those who pushed for Leave don't like Leave, then why on earth should those who wanted to Remain continue to go along with it?
    It's a legitimate question which shows what arseholes the ERG are but the answer in my view is that 17.4m people voted for it, not just them.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    No, the reality could have been quite different, had the leavers thrown themselves behind the deal as an acceptable compromise - the position Boris was prepared to take, until he saw Davis heading for the door. It would be been hugely more difficult for remainers to stand in the way of an approach that had the overwhelming backing of those wanting to leave - and it would have been sensible for the ERG to build up some political credit ready for the battles that would inevitably resume during transition.

    Instead, the ERG trashed the agreement and with it their own brand. Soubry is right that very many inside the Tory party are thoroughly fed up with them.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2019

    Labour, Lib Dems and assorted others were opposing because they put party over country.
    SNP are opposing because they don't want to be part of this country and chaos suits them.
    DUP oppose because it goes against their very core.
    Hardcore [former] Tory extremists like Soubry, Grieve et al oppose any deal.

    So where are the votes to come from to see the WA over the line even if it was backed by Baker etc?

    Maybe nowhere. Like I said, there's no point moaning at Mrs May: if the numbers don't add up, they don't add up. Even so, a hundred or so more Tory MPs voting in favour rather than against would have made it a hell of lot more attainable.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited February 2019

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
    That is not going to happen after next week when the HOC will take no deal off the table
    By replacing it with what? A stern letter that the No Deal avalanche must turn round and start going back up the mountain?
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    Mr. L, I wonder if Newcastle is benefiting from that.
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    AndyJS said:

    With a possible by-election in Peterborough in the offing, guess which town or city has been voted the worst in the country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6728839/Englands-WORST-place-live-Peterborough-tops-insalubrious-list-cr-p-towns.html

    Ooops. The Mail has chosen to illustrate Castleford, Yorkshire, with a picture of Castlefield, Manchester.
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    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
    That is not going to happen after next week when the HOC will take no deal off the table
    They won't take no deal off the table, they can't. No amendment has yet been even proposed that will take no deal off the table.

    Article 50 of the Treaties of the European Union is crystal clear. We leave automatically on 29 March [or whatever extension date is agreed] with no deal. Unless we agree a deal, or we revoke.

    Unless or until Parliament is prepared to revoke, no deal remains firmly on the table. Only the date varies.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:

    On slightly less positive news the Scottish budget is likely to be approved in about half an hour and the premium I have to pay for living and working in Scotland as opposed to England will increase by another £400 or so. Hey ho. No doubt international investors will come flooding in now.

    You think bribing the sun to show its face in Scotland comes cheap?
    It has in fairness been quite a nice day today.
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    DavidL said:


    Don't blame me, I'm not an MP. If I were I'd have voted for the deal, which respects the referendum result but doesn't cause too much damage. The ERG chose to trash it. Their choice, of course, but they can hardly complain if that scuppers Brexit entirely.

    Either way, one has to be realistic about the numbers. There's absolutely no point moaning at Theresa May, if all options are blocked to her by parliament.

    If the ERG has voted in favour of it (and I do support the Deal) then it would still have lost. There are simply too many MPs who do not want us to leave under any circumstances.
    I don't think so, actually. I think the highly efficient Steve Baker trashing operation poisoned the well early on, causing more moderate MPs to decide they didn't like it either. Meanwhile, those who supported Remain but wanted to respect the referendum result found themselves in a position where the Brexiteers were acting in bad faith and trying to crash us out in chaos. Of course in that scenario, where we can't have an orderly exit, it's better to revoke Article 50 altogether, and the ERG (and Boris and Farage) gave them a perfect argument to justify it by saying the deal was worse than remaining in the EU. Well, OK......
    It's only "ok" if you accept their judgment. And who would do that?
    Well, if those who pushed for Leave don't like Leave, then why on earth should those who wanted to Remain continue to go along with it?
    Except almost every formerly-Remain Tory is still going along with it. Because its a very soft Brexit.

    The opposition is coming from hardcore extreme Remain Tories who number less than a dozen and aren't shifted by the ERG, and the opposition benches who are playing party politics or have their own priorities.

    Remain Tories are remaining remarkably loyal by and large.
    This one only so far. It is TM deal for me or remain , otherwise TIGS
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    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
    That is not going to happen after next week when the HOC will take no deal off the table
    They won't take no deal off the table, they can't. No amendment has yet been even proposed that will take no deal off the table.

    Article 50 of the Treaties of the European Union is crystal clear. We leave automatically on 29 March [or whatever extension date is agreed] with no deal. Unless we agree a deal, or we revoke.

    Unless or until Parliament is prepared to revoke, no deal remains firmly on the table. Only the date varies.
    No deal will not happen
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    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is very interesting. Gives TM a good option
    If TM capitulates on a second referendum , as a lifelong Tory voter , she will have lost my vote for life and I suspect many other leave voters who trusted the government to deliver on the referendum . It would destroy all faith in democracy in this country . The independent group are the referendum losers group
    They have no respect for the decision taken by 17.4 million voters to leave the EU. The betrayal of brexit is well under way.
    Fine, do you have any better ideas given the parliamentary arithmetic?
    She said that no deal was better than a bad deal.

    Give Parliament an ultimatum: My deal or no deal, your choice.

    The fact she is still messing around saying "its either my deal, or no deal, or no Brexit" is why she's in this conundrum. She's saying it hoping leavers hear "my deal or no Brexit" and remainers hear "my deal or no deal". But instead of course everyone can hear exactly what she's saying so remainers think "if I want no Brexit I need to reject this deal" and leavers think "if I think no deal is better than a bad deal I need to reject this deal".

    Make it a binary choice - and Article 50 provides the options. We have a deal, if you want to take no deal off the table you have to accept it otherwise we will switch to solely preparing for no deal and that will be your choice.
    That is not going to happen after next week when the HOC will take no deal off the table
    By replacing it with what? A stern letter that the No Deal avalanche must turn round and start going back up the mountain?
    Deal or referendum
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    Mr. L, I wonder if Newcastle is benefiting from that.

    Not sure. At the time of Indyref there were quite a number of Scottish financial institutions looking at Newcastle. Sadly, given the continuing uncertainty caused by the neverendum many have now left anyway.
This discussion has been closed.