Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With a cabinet revolt the balance could be moving to Article 5

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited February 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With a cabinet revolt the balance could be moving to Article 50 being extended

In exactly five weeks time at 11pm GMT the UK is due to leave the EU following the procedure laid down in Article 50. With time running out and the threat of a no-deal getting closer three cabinet ministers have taken it into their hands to break all notions of cabinet government and write a piece for the Daily Mail.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,572
    edited February 2019
    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Extension is not the problem. Extension for not purpose beyond not making our minds up is the problem.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2019
    The EU will demand permanent Customs Union or EUref2 as the price for an extension of Art 50 if Parliament rejects May's Deal again and of course an extension means Farage's Brexit Party will contest the European elections in May with a good chance of winning them
  • The big fight that the Clarke, Rudd Gauke are doing is to make extending the Article 50 timescale their objective.

    Actually I don't think that's right. Their objective - indeed, the objective of any sane MP - is to avoid crashing out in chaos. The easiest and least damaging way to achieve that is for MPs to ratify the deal on the table. Extending Article 50 is the first stage of a damage-limitation Plan B, for the case where the ERG and Labour continue to collude to try to push us into No Deal.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    I think that answers @RochdalePioneers’ question on the previous thread.
  • FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    I think that answers @RochdalePioneers’ question on the previous thread.
    It wasn't so much a question as an admission of moral bankruptcy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited February 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Tweet re Austin saying Corbyn has done some anti Semitic things and it being huge

    Is it? I thought Hodge had called him an anti-Semite to his face already. Many think he isn’t, some think he is, and some of those that do still won’t leave.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    kle4 said:

    Extension is not the problem. Extension for not purpose beyond not making our minds up is the problem.

    Agreed. It 's arse about face.
  • I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,093
    There always was going to be an extension of at least a few months, because we are in no way ready for any type of leaving.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    Really disappointing from Moem. 4 overs in a row takes a single off the first ball and leaves it all to Rashid.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    There was a really annoying "debate" on Newsnight after Ian Austin.

    The token Brexiteer posited that the future of politics was "values". Kirsty Wark that you have to translate those into policies, but that aside, what are the values of Brexit? We hate foreigners?

    The token Corbynista agreed that values were important which is why Corbyn is set to win. His values? we hate Jews?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.
  • Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The Conservatives are pulling themselves down.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    Why? The vast vast majority of its MPs and Members either beleive they have no problem, or its a problem that can be solved by staying within the party. That includes even with all the complaints that have caused the defections. The Tories are now nothing but ‘we’re not Labour’, why cannot Labour survive by being just ‘not the Tories’? While Mrs May’s refrain of Nothing has Changed is not quite true, the Tiggers have been a change, I don’t see how it follows that there is even a risk of Labour being displaced. The Tiggers cannot even get other independents to join them, they’re hardly going to be a viable alternative, not with the glacial movement to a referendum from Corbyn’s team removing the last reason to quit.
  • HYUFD said:

    The EU will demand permanent Customs Union or EUref2 as the price for an extension of Art 50 if Parliament rejects May's Deal again and of course an extension means Farage's Brexit Party will contest the European elections in May with a good chance of winning them

    Caveat required IMHO as I do not agree with you.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    I think that answers @RochdalePioneers’ question on the previous thread.
    It wasn't so much a question as an admission of moral bankruptcy.
    Harsh but seems fair
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited February 2019
    _Anazina_ said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Scott_P said:
    I didn't know Charlie Falconer had ever resogned :)
    Good Lord, why were we not told!
    😂😂😂
    Oh, so that meme is ok? :)
  • DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
  • Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    Agreed.

    An extension without a decision achieves nothing and just drags uncertainty out.
  • Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    The TIGgers could nick that for a cracking slogan: Extend Article 50 - Let's Dick Around Longer.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    No flowers.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    The Labour Party has something close to a cult following in most of the big cities in the UK, where people vote for it no matter what. So I doubt they're finished.
  • DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    And the moral degeneracy of the Labour leader and a significant number of his supporters.

    I think this is the crucial difference between TIG and SDP.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Tweet re Austin saying Corbyn has done some anti Semitic things and it being huge

    Is it? I thought Hodge had called him an anti-Semite to his face already. Many think he isn’t, some think he is, and some of those that do still won’t leave.
    Yeah - if he thinks he knows something amazing, the question immediately arises why we're only hearing about it from Austin now, as he's been critical of Corbyn for years.
  • DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    The death of Labour is not likely (yet) but it is beginning to look possible.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    edited February 2019

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
    I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless. Thornberry is the obvious choice.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
  • AndyJS said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    The Labour Party has something close to a cult following in most of the big cities in the UK, where people vote for it no matter what. So I doubt they're finished.
    If enough MPs leave so that Labour is no longer the official opposition, and if they can split the trade union movement - then I think it would be enough.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
    I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless.
    I wonder if McDonnell will get it.

    In a way I honestly think he is more dangerous.

    Yes - I mean dangerous.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    What's happening in the Cabinet?

    Remainers want to remain?

    Nothing new there then...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
    I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless.
    I wonder if McDonnell will get it.

    In a way I honestly think he is more dangerous.

    Yes - I mean dangerous.
    He would be dangerous to Labour. They might then split. But Thornberry could hold them together.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited February 2019

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    A decision to do something positive could be revoke, referendum, deal, whatever. It means choosing to do something, I believe, not even necessarily what that decision is. Surely the one thing we can agree on is that there is no need to delay that choice, even if there is disagreement over what the choice should be? Nothing is gained from running away from the choice
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    I wish, totally wish, that you were right here. But I don't think you are.

    I'm a social democrat. I veer LibDem as the closest inheritors to the SDp. I regularly argue the toss on /r/libdem, advancing the social democrat point of view against "classical liberals". Charles Kennedy was the party leader with whom I most agreed.

    But TIG isn't yet the new dawn. Two reasons. First is the obvious one: we're four days in and it's way too early to conclude that a couple of random polls suggest that support for "a new centre party" will translate into people voting for Umunna, Soubry, Shuker and Leslie, only two of whom anyone has ever heard of.

    The second reason is more troublesome. I don't think TIG is in step with the times. Their instincts are Blairite-right: expand Heathrow, intervene in far-flung conflicts, encourage private sector involvement in schools and the NHS. That isn't where people are now. Corbyn, like it or not, has shifted the Overton window. TIG is advancing the solutions of 10 years ago.

    Charlie Kennedy would clean up right now. Exasperatingly, the LibDems themselves might have a chance if they would only dump Low-Voltage Cable and elect a social liberal with a fresh face, which means Layla Moran. But TIG are in danger of offering reheated Blairism to a world that has moved on.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    The Conservatives’ attempt to paint Corbyn as an opponent of Brexit just seems so desperate.

    https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/1098933033971924993?s=21
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    kle4 said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    A decision to do something positive could be revoke, referendum, deal, whatever. It means choosing to do something, I beleive, not even necessarily what that decision does. Surely the one thing we can agree on is that there is no need to delay that choice, even if there is disagreement over what the choice should be?
    I think the problem is whichever way May swings she is going to destroy the coalition in her party. I think delay is better than crashing out. But it is not really positive. Even revoke article 50 which would be popular with me has negative implications as some ERG will defect to Farage's new party but interestingly I doubt that is as appealing to Tory MPs as some media outlets would advocate.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Scott_P said:
    RAOTFLMFAO 😂 they really havnt a clue
  • OT more Baemy vs her minions stories:

    https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1099043169436606465
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Tig Tory defection targets:

    Big G
    Eagles
    ScottP
    Scrapheap
    Stark
    Topping
    Felix
    Richard N (stretch target)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    One day you will look at the anti-democratic clusterfuck that is the EU and think....

    What am I saying? You - think?
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    Wasn’t there some gigantic irony in how scottish labour had so comprehensively toxified the brand Conservative in Scotland (with no shortage of assistance by past Conservative governments), that when they shared the stage for the referendum, all the poison seemed to just pass back over to labour.

  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
  • Scott_P said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    There was a really annoying "debate" on Newsnight after Ian Austin.

    The token Brexiteer posited that the future of politics was "values". Kirsty Wark that you have to translate those into policies, but that aside, what are the values of Brexit? We hate foreigners?

    The token Corbynista agreed that values were important which is why Corbyn is set to win. His values? we hate Jews?
    Glad I wasn't the only one to think that. Three Wannabees with nothing to say.

    Austin I found moving though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Scott_P said:
    He's already got the ermine - what is Corbyn gonna offer him for the whitewash? The Isle of Wight maybe?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    I wish, totally wish, that you were right here. But I don't think you are.

    I'm a social democrat. I veer LibDem as the closest inheritors to the SDp. I regularly argue the toss on /r/libdem, advancing the social democrat point of view against "classical liberals". Charles Kennedy was the party leader with whom I most agreed.

    But TIG isn't yet the new dawn. Two reasons. First is the obvious one: we're four days in and it's way too early to conclude that a couple of random polls suggest that support for "a new centre party" will translate into people voting for Umunna, Soubry, Shuker and Leslie, only two of whom anyone has ever heard of.

    The second reason is more troublesome. I don't think TIG is in step with the times. Their instincts are Blairite-right: expand Heathrow, intervene in far-flung conflicts, encourage private sector involvement in schools and the NHS. That isn't where people are now. Corbyn, like it or not, has shifted the Overton window. TIG is advancing the solutions of 10 years ago.

    Charlie Kennedy would clean up right now. Exasperatingly, the LibDems themselves might have a chance if they would only dump Low-Voltage Cable and elect a social liberal with a fresh face, which means Layla Moran. But TIG are in danger of offering reheated Blairism to a world that has moved on.
    I agree with you about CK. He had many problems but one of them was not telling the truth. A lot of politicians today would be well advised to study how Mr CK projected himself. Ken Clarke is another.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    AndyJS said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    The Labour Party has something close to a cult following in most of the big cities in the UK, where people vote for it no matter what. So I doubt they're finished.

    When change comes, it can come very quickly.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
    I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless. Thornberry is the obvious choice.
    As much as I hope you are right about Corbyn, people have been posting similar forecasts for what seems like decades.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    I wish, totally wish, that you were right here. But I don't think you are.

    I'm a social democrat. I veer LibDem as the closest inheritors to the SDp. I regularly argue the toss on /r/libdem, advancing the social democrat point of view against "classical liberals". Charles Kennedy was the party leader with whom I most agreed.

    But TIG isn't yet the new dawn. Two reasons. First is the obvious one: we're four days in and it's way too early to conclude that a couple of random polls suggest that support for "a new centre party" will translate into people voting for Umunna, Soubry, Shuker and Leslie, only two of whom anyone has ever heard of.

    The second reason is more troublesome. I don't think TIG is in step with the times. Their instincts are Blairite-right: expand Heathrow, intervene in far-flung conflicts, encourage private sector involvement in schools and the NHS. That isn't where people are now. Corbyn, like it or not, has shifted the Overton window. TIG is advancing the solutions of 10 years ago.

    Charlie Kennedy would clean up right now. Exasperatingly, the LibDems themselves might have a chance if they would only dump Low-Voltage Cable and elect a social liberal with a fresh face, which means Layla Moran. But TIG are in danger of offering reheated Blairism to a world that has moved on.
    I think you're looking in the wrong place for a TIG analogy. They are party that will do to English Labour what the SNP did to Scottish Labour.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    Scott_P said:
    Tony knows where to get a load of whitewash in a hurry.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
    I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless.
    I wonder if McDonnell will get it.

    In a way I honestly think he is more dangerous.

    Yes - I mean dangerous.
    Mcdon would not run. He’d endorse his protege, RLB. Corb might endorse RLB too. Despite that, if a sink hole appeared on Jez allotment this weekend the membership would elect Thornberry or Starmer.

    The canny trick of ref 2 MPs like Thornberry is to get their constituency party to call for it in a vote.

    Things are moving. It’s looking like the coming week is the big denouement

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    Labour are two and a bit parties (hard left, centre left, eurosceptics) as are the Conservatives (ERG, mainstream, continuity Remain). I think that if one party disintegrates, there's not a lot to hold the other together,
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    The EU will demand permanent Customs Union or EUref2 as the price for an extension of Art 50 if Parliament rejects May's Deal again and of course an extension means Farage's Brexit Party will contest the European elections in May with a good chance of winning them

    Caveat required IMHO as I do not agree with you.
    The EU are not going to allow an extension on a road to nowhere, especially as all member states have to agree, the UK has to bring something else to the table
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    I wish, totally wish, that you were right here. But I don't think you are.

    I'm a social democrat. I veer LibDem as the closest inheritors to the SDp. I regularly argue the toss on /r/libdem, advancing the social democrat point of view against "classical liberals". Charles Kennedy was the party leader with whom I most agreed.

    But TIG isn't yet the new dawn. Two reasons. First is the obvious one: we're four days in and it's way too early to conclude that a couple of random polls suggest that support for "a new centre party" will translate into people voting for Umunna, Soubry, Shuker and Leslie, only two of whom anyone has ever heard of.

    The second reason is more troublesome. I don't think TIG is in step with the times. Their instincts are Blairite-right: expand Heathrow, intervene in far-flung conflicts, encourage private sector involvement in schools and the NHS. That isn't where people are now. Corbyn, like it or not, has shifted the Overton window. TIG is advancing the solutions of 10 years ago.

    Charlie Kennedy would clean up right now. Exasperatingly, the LibDems themselves might have a chance if they would only dump Low-Voltage Cable and elect a social liberal with a fresh face, which means Layla Moran. But TIG are in danger of offering reheated Blairism to a world that has moved on.
    I think you're looking in the wrong place for a TIG analogy. They are party that will do to English Labour what the SNP did to Scottish Labour.
    Perhaps, but there is ferocious loyalty to Labour, and/or fierce support for Corbyn, among a large minority of people.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    A couple of betting thoughts;

    Rudd - not the next Tory leader.

    Next cabinet minister to resign - not a good market to be in, as a possible dead heat between three (at least) contenders.
  • Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
    Well, it would certainly have seemed a cheap buy to them given the strength of the C$ against the £.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    notme2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    The Labour Party has something close to a cult following in most of the big cities in the UK, where people vote for it no matter what. So I doubt they're finished.

    When change comes, it can come very quickly.
    And what does a change of leader to a halfway moderate, removing Milne, and having the capable ones from Corbyns front bench (both of them) sat next to likes of cooper, nandy do to the narrative?
  • _Anazina_ said:

    Tig Tory defection targets:

    Big G
    Eagles
    ScottP
    Scrapheap
    Stark
    Topping
    Felix
    Richard N (stretch target)

    I am going nowhere... today.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:

    Tig Tory defection targets:

    Big G
    Eagles
    ScottP
    Scrapheap
    Stark
    Topping
    Felix
    Richard N (stretch target)

    I am going nowhere... today.
    No current plans? 😊
  • The Conservatives’ attempt to paint Corbyn as an opponent of Brexit just seems so desperate.

    https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/1098933033971924993?s=21

    FFS
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    We have not left the EU yet. The existing framework delivers! Why would you change your whole international strategy for something that even the advocates say is not as good as the status quo? It is illogical.

  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    Indeed, but MOE stuff.

    The future is bright, the future is charcoal!
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    I wish, totally wish, that you were right here. But I don't think you are.

    I'm a social democrat. I veer LibDem as the closest inheritors to the SDp. I regularly argue the toss on /r/libdem, advancing the social democrat point of view against "classical liberals". Charles Kennedy was the party leader with whom I most agreed.

    But TIG isn't yet the new dawn. Two reasons. First is the obvious one: we're four days in and it's way too early to conclude that a couple of random polls suggest that support for "a new centre party" will translate into people voting for Umunna, Soubry, Shuker and Leslie, only two of whom anyone has ever heard of.

    The second reason is more troublesome. I don't think TIG is in step with the times. Their instincts are Blairite-right: expand Heathrow, intervene in far-flung conflicts, encourage private sector involvement in schools and the NHS. That isn't where people are now. Corbyn, like it or not, has shifted the Overton window. TIG is advancing the solutions of 10 years ago.

    Charlie Kennedy would clean up right now. Exasperatingly, the LibDems themselves might have a chance if they would only dump Low-Voltage Cable and elect a social liberal with a fresh face, which means Layla Moran. But TIG are in danger of offering reheated Blairism to a world that has moved on.
    I think you're looking in the wrong place for a TIG analogy. They are party that will do to English Labour what the SNP did to Scottish Labour.
    This is delusional. TIG will not do any such thing.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Tig Tory defection targets:

    Big G
    Eagles
    ScottP
    Scrapheap
    Stark
    Topping
    Felix
    Richard N (stretch target)

    I am going nowhere... today.
    No current plans? 😊
    Only spurs related ones....
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
    Economies will always have good points as well as bad points no matter how they are performing overall. Honda do not share your optimism although they are not so stupid to say outright it is Brexit as they still want to sell cars here manufactured in Japan. No Deal Brexit will wreck the economy.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    dots said:

    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
    I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless.
    I wonder if McDonnell will get it.

    In a way I honestly think he is more dangerous.

    Yes - I mean dangerous.
    Mcdon would not run. He’d endorse his protege, RLB. Corb might endorse RLB too. Despite that, if a sink hole appeared on Jez allotment this weekend the membership would elect Thornberry or Starmer.

    The canny trick of ref 2 MPs like Thornberry is to get their constituency party to call for it in a vote.

    Things are moving. It’s looking like the coming week is the big denouement

    I’m not from his wing, nowhere near it, but I can’t help but like and be impressed by MaccyD. He is a convincing performer - it might all be an act, but he plays it well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    A decision to do something positive could be revoke, referendum, deal, whatever. It means choosing to do something, I beleive, not even necessarily what that decision does. Surely the one thing we can agree on is that there is no need to delay that choice, even if there is disagreement over what the choice should be?
    I think the problem is whichever way May swings she is going to destroy the coalition in her party.
    Yes. And I understand that she keeps running from decisions to try to put that off. But unless a hundred MPs have just been bluffing this whole time, there's nothing to be gained in continually pretending she can keep them together.

    The no deal opponents are key now. They have to bring May down by voting against her government. Yes, that's chaotic and it's far from clear what would result, but May is pushing no deal by default because she cannot take no deal off the table (even if that were possible short of approving something) without losing dozens of MPs. So give her more time and it is just facing no deal at the end anyway. Bring her down in the national interest and maybe something else could be cobbled together.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    One day you will look at the anti-democratic clusterfuck that is the EU and think....

    What am I saying? You - think?
    I don't think the EU is perfect far from it.

    I am a pragmatist on the EU and I don't think the UK should ever join the Euro for instance. I just don't appreciate my life being turned upside down for no gain and for promises that will not be delivered or the clock turning back..
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
    The harder the Brexit and the more the Corbynistas deepen their control over Labour, the better the Tiggers will do, especially if No Deal. By contrast if we get soft Brexit or Brexit is revoked it is Farage's new Brexit Party who could advance rather than the Tiggers
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    _Anazina_ said:

    dots said:

    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm beginning to feel like we could be in the final death throes of the Labour Party. That the TIG could do what the SDP couldn't and displace it.

    The reason is as someone said on the last thread, the Labour Party was meant to be "a moral crusade or nothing". Now it is very immoral to anyone who abhors antisemitism etc.

    In the 80s the Labour Party believed in something, whether under Foot or Kinnock. Now the attitude of many in Labour seems to be nothing other than "yeah but we're not the Tories".

    You know who else is not the Tories? TIG. Lib Dems. Plaid Cyrmu. The SNP.

    "We're not the Tories" is a meaningless and rotten core to build an edifice upon. For a long time in Scotland Labour dominated with that because the Tories were hated but when a viable alternative came the whole party collapsed.

    Labour needs to have something to be other than not the Tories. And soon.

    I think it's possible Labour will now collapse, but they could pull the Conservatives down with them.
    The death of Labour is being greatly exaggerated. The Tiggers are not even a party yet and it’s far from clear that they agree on anything except Brexit.
    I agree but it may end up the communist party of UK in all but name
    I don’t think that Corbyn can survive much longer. Who the next leader is is key. Choose someone sensible and the Tiggers will look pretty pointless.
    I wonder if McDonnell will get it.

    In a way I honestly think he is more dangerous.

    Yes - I mean dangerous.
    Mcdon would not run. He’d endorse his protege, RLB. Corb might endorse RLB too. Despite that, if a sink hole appeared on Jez allotment this weekend the membership would elect Thornberry or Starmer.

    The canny trick of ref 2 MPs like Thornberry is to get their constituency party to call for it in a vote.

    Things are moving. It’s looking like the coming week is the big denouement

    I’m not from his wing, nowhere near it, but I can’t help but like and be impressed by MaccyD. He is a convincing performer - it might all be an act, but he plays it well.
    I liked the analogy someone made to a detective, was it cyclefree? At first, when you believe he’s straight honest fighting for justice, its good, convincing. When you wake up to the fact his idea of justice is a narrow view he’s always believed in, and will close ranks and spin to look after his own, he comes across as untrustworthy and malicious.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
    Did you hear about the two blokes who ripped off Diary Crest?

    They got six months each.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    HYUFD said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
    The harder the Brexit and the more the Corbynistas deepen their control over Labour, the better the Tiggers will do, especially if No Deal. By contrast if we get soft Brexit or Brexit is revoked it is Farage's new Brexit Party who could advance rather than the Tiggers
    So Tories to gain south Ilford then?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234

    ...I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange...

    Well, they are the ones who are going to profit from it... :)

  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
    The harder the Brexit and the more the Corbynistas deepen their control over Labour, the better the Tiggers will do, especially if No Deal. By contrast if we get soft Brexit or Brexit is revoked it is Farage's new Brexit Party who could advance rather than the Tiggers
    So Tories to gain south Ilford then?
    I was amazed (and weirdly, unjustifiably proud) to note that, having gone to bed last night with it in full flow, the debate over Ilford’s demographics was still going the following morning.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    _Anazina_ said:

    Tig Tory defection targets:

    Big G
    Eagles
    ScottP
    Scrapheap
    Stark
    Topping
    Felix
    Richard N (stretch target)

    I am going nowhere... today.
    I advise all of you on the list to not even think it. Things will change soon, back to some normality, and you will be pleased you didnt publicaly flip flop and embarrass yourself
  • Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
    Economies will always have good points as well as bad points no matter how they are performing overall. Honda do not share your optimism although they are not so stupid to say outright it is Brexit as they still want to sell cars here manufactured in Japan. No Deal Brexit will wreck the economy.
    More to the point, Dairy Crest hardly exports at all. This Guardian piece from last year says 98% of cheese sales were in the UK.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/23/dairy-crest-invests-85m-in-cheese-factory-as-overseas-demand-grows

    What Brexit has already done is reduce the value of sterling, making it cheaper for foreign firms to buy British companies. In the long run, this is often a bad thing as profits flow abroad, and worse if investment is cut.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
    The pound is cheap, UK assets are cheap even in £ terms, and crucially Dairy Crest sells all most all its products within the UK and is well placed to clean up on import substitution in the event of a disastrous brexit. If you find this sort of stuff difficult you may want to consider refraining from voting in future referendums on the grounds that you don't understand the issues.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited February 2019

    Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
    Economies will always have good points as well as bad points no matter how they are performing overall. Honda do not share your optimism although they are not so stupid to say outright it is Brexit as they still want to sell cars here manufactured in Japan. No Deal Brexit will wreck the economy.
    More to the point, Dairy Crest hardly exports at all. This Guardian piece from last year says 98% of cheese sales were in the UK.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/23/dairy-crest-invests-85m-in-cheese-factory-as-overseas-demand-grows

    What Brexit has already done is reduce the value of sterling, making it cheaper for foreign firms to buy British companies. In the long run, this is often a bad thing as profits flow abroad, and worse if investment is cut.
    You just can not win with you pro-eu people.
    Brexit has caused a drop in FDI - Pro-EU people, disaster it is wrong to leave the EU, we need FDI.
    FDI in the UK 40 odd days before brexit - This is bad because profits will flow abroad.

    Make your minds up, plueezee.

    EDIT: I will also remind you of one of the non negotiable pillars of the EU. Free movement of capital. Think about what that means.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    _Anazina_ said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
    The harder the Brexit and the more the Corbynistas deepen their control over Labour, the better the Tiggers will do, especially if No Deal. By contrast if we get soft Brexit or Brexit is revoked it is Farage's new Brexit Party who could advance rather than the Tiggers
    So Tories to gain south Ilford then?
    I was amazed (and weirdly, unjustifiably proud) to note that, having gone to bed last night with it in full flow, the debate over Ilford’s demographics was still going the following morning.
    So much they missed as well.

    last census shows 1500 Jedi and 17 Tusken Raiders.

    How blood groups are so much out of step with the national average.
  • The Conservatives’ attempt to paint Corbyn as an opponent of Brexit just seems so desperate.

    https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/1098933033971924993?s=21

    FFS
    The Conservatives have at least shown Corbyn and friend (most voters won't know him) wearing poppies!
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    Extension to dick around a while longer?

    What we need is a decision to do something positive.

    I don't think screwing up trading relationships (Trade agreements with non EU countries) for no good reason is being positive.

    One day you will look back at your vehement advocation of Brexit and regret it.

    The sad thing is as this nation loses descent jobs, enterprises and opportunities. The same problems will still plague your mind about immigrants and their role in society as the UK pulls in economic migrants from the rest of the world rather than the EU.

    The factories will close and never re-open but that is not a problem to you as your children or grandchildren will not go hungry or get left behind at school because the person they are dependent on has no work. People say if the economy is bad the immigrants will stop coming but this fails to take into consideration demographic changes leaving the population older, the unskilled work that will grow in demand whilst our more educated society have aspirations to do better than the roles on offer and the pull and push factors of higher wages in the UK despite Brexit than say India or Pakistan or Africa.
    Yet, employment grows, wages rise, and taxes revenues roll in.
    Today a Canadian Company bought Diary Crest for a premium and said Brexit, who cares. I find it strange that overseas people have more faith in Brexit UK than some of the people in the UK. Very strange.
    The pound is cheap, UK assets are cheap even in £ terms, and crucially Dairy Crest sells all most all its products within the UK and is well placed to clean up on import substitution in the event of a disastrous brexit. If you find this sort of stuff difficult you may want to consider refraining from voting in future referendums on the grounds that you don't understand the issues.
    I understand the issue. It is as, you can see from the post of your fellow Blue and Yellow supporters that do not.

    PS: How are your seedlings doing, I read the other day that there are 4 to 7 months of stock in non perishable food in the UK at the moment.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    You just can not win with you pro-eu people.
    Brexit has caused a drop in FDI - Pro-EU people, disaster it is wrong to leave the EU, we need FDI.
    FDI in the UK 40 odd days before brexit - This is bad because profits will flow abroad.

    Make your minds up, plueezee.

    EDIT: I will also remind you of one of the non negotiable pillars of the EU. Free movement of capital. Think about what that means.

    I am not particularly pro eu, I was just pointing out that something which you admit to finding very hard to understand, is in fact very easy to understand.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    The Conservatives’ attempt to paint Corbyn as an opponent of Brexit just seems so desperate.

    https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/1098933033971924993?s=21

    FFS
    The Conservatives have at least shown Corbyn and friend (most voters won't know him) wearing poppies!
    Is he a friend?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234
    dots said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
    The harder the Brexit and the more the Corbynistas deepen their control over Labour, the better the Tiggers will do, especially if No Deal. By contrast if we get soft Brexit or Brexit is revoked it is Farage's new Brexit Party who could advance rather than the Tiggers
    So Tories to gain south Ilford then?
    I was amazed (and weirdly, unjustifiably proud) to note that, having gone to bed last night with it in full flow, the debate over Ilford’s demographics was still going the following morning.
    So much they missed as well.

    last census shows 1500 Jedi and 17 Tusken Raiders...
    But only two Sith.
    Because...
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    The Conservatives’ attempt to paint Corbyn as an opponent of Brexit just seems so desperate.

    https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/1098933033971924993?s=21

    FFS
    The Conservatives have at least shown Corbyn and friend (most voters won't know him) wearing poppies!
    That was the giveaway that it was fake, probably momentum behind it. A photograph both men would use in their own publicity. They look like completely trustworthy elder statesman of the political establishment.

    It’s not the benchmark photo with where they were ten years ago, but just four years ago when Cameron jabbed for goodness sake get a tie will you
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    viewcode said:

    dots said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
    The harder the Brexit and the more the Corbynistas deepen their control over Labour, the better the Tiggers will do, especially if No Deal. By contrast if we get soft Brexit or Brexit is revoked it is Farage's new Brexit Party who could advance rather than the Tiggers
    So Tories to gain south Ilford then?
    I was amazed (and weirdly, unjustifiably proud) to note that, having gone to bed last night with it in full flow, the debate over Ilford’s demographics was still going the following morning.
    So much they missed as well.

    last census shows 1500 Jedi and 17 Tusken Raiders...
    But only two Sith.
    Because...
    Because they moved back to East Ham?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Ishmael_Z said:



    You just can not win with you pro-eu people.
    Brexit has caused a drop in FDI - Pro-EU people, disaster it is wrong to leave the EU, we need FDI.
    FDI in the UK 40 odd days before brexit - This is bad because profits will flow abroad.

    Make your minds up, plueezee.

    EDIT: I will also remind you of one of the non negotiable pillars of the EU. Free movement of capital. Think about what that means.

    I am not particularly pro eu, I was just pointing out that something which you admit to finding very hard to understand, is in fact very easy to understand.
    I did not say hard to understand, I said strange. Which I admit can be used as in hard to understand but, I used it in the context of surprising, just to clarify.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited February 2019
    Ishmael_Z said:



    You just can not win with you pro-eu people.
    Brexit has caused a drop in FDI - Pro-EU people, disaster it is wrong to leave the EU, we need FDI.
    FDI in the UK 40 odd days before brexit - This is bad because profits will flow abroad.

    Make your minds up, plueezee.

    EDIT: I will also remind you of one of the non negotiable pillars of the EU. Free movement of capital. Think about what that means.

    I am not particularly pro eu, I was just pointing out that something which you admit to finding very hard to understand, is in fact very easy to understand.
    "Dairy Crest sells all most all its products within the UK" - if your grammar was better then it might help with understanding
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:



    You just can not win with you pro-eu people.
    Brexit has caused a drop in FDI - Pro-EU people, disaster it is wrong to leave the EU, we need FDI.
    FDI in the UK 40 odd days before brexit - This is bad because profits will flow abroad.

    Make your minds up, plueezee.

    EDIT: I will also remind you of one of the non negotiable pillars of the EU. Free movement of capital. Think about what that means.

    I am not particularly pro eu, I was just pointing out that something which you admit to finding very hard to understand, is in fact very easy to understand.
    "Dairy Crest sells all most all its products within the UK" - if your grammar was better then it might help with understanding
    If your grammar were better, you mean.

    "All most" is an error for "almost" (unintentional, but it makes quite a good ad hoc intelligence test).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    _Anazina_ said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    dots said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT: Opinium polling on potential new centrist party

    https://www.progressive-centre.com/post/progressive-centre-uk--opinium-polling

    Am I first?

    41% say they could vote for a new centre ground party. LDs are most likely to vote for such a party, 66% say they would likely do so, 43% of Labour voters would do so and 37% of Tory voters
    The tables seem to say that Lab and Con voters are equally potentially tempted (Lab 38 No, 36 Yes; Con 37 No, 35 Yes). The poll gives the Tories a current 3-point lead (37-34), with Independents not separately polled.
    Slightly more Labour than Tory voters would consider a new centrist party but voters from both parties are willing to consider a move
    All utterly meaningless and unicorn stuff.
    The leaders of the three main party’s could change. Brexit could get beyond log jam. In an electoral cycle you can be ten points ahead mid term, such as milliband, and still lose. Is that factored in to any of this?

    Tiggers are the non of the above option. They are whatever you want them to be option.

    There’s a world of difference between tiggers in opinion polls and being able to fight an election.
    The harder the Brexit and the more the Corbynistas deepen their control over Labour, the better the Tiggers will do, especially if No Deal. By contrast if we get soft Brexit or Brexit is revoked it is Farage's new Brexit Party who could advance rather than the Tiggers
    So Tories to gain south Ilford then?
    I was amazed (and weirdly, unjustifiably proud) to note that, having gone to bed last night with it in full flow, the debate over Ilford’s demographics was still going the following morning.
    It's a fascination subject, as I'm sure everyone will agree.
This discussion has been closed.