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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Whilst the Tories plough on totally divided over Brexit LAB ha

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited March 5 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Whilst the Tories plough on totally divided over Brexit LAB has its worse polling month since GE2017

If ever there was a period when LAB should be making headways in the polls then surely it has to be at the moment well that always continue to be divided on brexit.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,369
    first
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,093
    edited March 5
    second
    Just after making 2 comments on the PT. Baa.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 9,135
    edited March 5
    A third - unlike dortmund (hopefully)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,014
    Liam Fox’s trade department cancels business Brexit briefings.

    "Halt to roundtables after details on lack of deals leaked by infuriated participants"

    https://www.ft.com/content/25b1eb3e-3e85-11e9-9bee-efab61506f44
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,804
    Curse of the new thread: FPT

    "YBarddCwsc said:

    I very much doubt that.

    It is still the case that it is easier to wait for Corby to lose control of the party (as he will, because the pendulum always swings back) than to set up a completely new party.

    I always wondered what I would have done if I had been born and lived in East Germany (or another Soviet satellite) in the 1970s. Would I have tried to be a hero and cross the Wall?

    The correct thing to do (we can now see) is to have waited. In 1989, the GDR collapsed.

    The TIGgers have scaled the Wall. Good luck to them, but most likely they will be shot down by the border guards or bleed to death in the barbed wire.

    The best thing for Labour moderates to do is wait. The Wall will come down anyhow.

    If there is a GE this year (not unlikely), they may not have to wait too long."




    To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

    A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118
    O/t but interesting development in our small town, where the locals are due in two months. Popular local man, active in all sorts of local 'good causes' has announced he's standing as an Independent. It's a two seat ward and he's got a running mate.

    Suddenly we have had a leaflet from the local Tories, for the first time since the last elections, announcing 'two independently minded conservatives'!
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,411

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:


    It took Labour 13 years for centrists to regain control of the party after Foot was elected in 1980 and Militant gained influence

    No, it took 3 years. Foot was elected leader in 1980, he left office in 1983, to be succeeded by Kinnock.

    It took the SDP much longer to break the mould. In fact we're still waiting.

    (I note it is acknowledged Tories who are so enthusiastic about the Labour moderates splitting. I wonder why ... I wonder why)
    Just because they'd be happy doesn't mean it's not also a good idea. If the only reason someone wont split is because of hatred for another what a depressing situation that is.

    I hope they both split more, but I think Watson and co have seen off the Tiggers. Those that are left see it as a fight to have.
    Maybe a fight which they all but know will be lost and which will help eventually prepare the ground for a much bigger split.

    The case for a split is that Labour is confirmed irredemably as an extremist party and as such its electoral destiny will follow the path trod earlier by the Parti Communiste Francaise.
    I really doubt that is right. Nothing is irredeemable in politics.

    The reason why Corby's position was strengthened was because he was electorally more successful than anyone ever imagined (albeit in a very odd election against a very poor opponent). Corby deserves credit for that.

    But another GE defeat would see Corby in his allotment.

    For sure, his successor is not going to be another Blair (thank God), but it will be someone like Thornberry, or ..... even Watson.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 21,252

    O/t but interesting development in our small town, where the locals are due in two months. Popular local man, active in all sorts of local 'good causes' has announced he's standing as an Independent. It's a two seat ward and he's got a running mate.

    Suddenly we have had a leaflet from the local Tories, for the first time since the last elections, announcing 'two independently minded conservatives'!

    Good to hear, more people getting involved in local democracy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,035

    Curse of the new thread: FPT

    "YBarddCwsc said:

    I very much doubt that.

    It is still the case that it is easier to wait for Corby to lose control of the party (as he will, because the pendulum always swings back) than to set up a completely new party.

    I always wondered what I would have done if I had been born and lived in East Germany (or another Soviet satellite) in the 1970s. Would I have tried to be a hero and cross the Wall?

    The correct thing to do (we can now see) is to have waited. In 1989, the GDR collapsed.

    The TIGgers have scaled the Wall. Good luck to them, but most likely they will be shot down by the border guards or bleed to death in the barbed wire.

    The best thing for Labour moderates to do is wait. The Wall will come down anyhow.

    If there is a GE this year (not unlikely), they may not have to wait too long."




    To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

    A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

    These dumb analogies say more about you than the problem, serious though it is.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,411
    edited March 5



    To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

    A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

    But the point is that the Soviet Union ... and even apartheid South Africa .... were reformed from within. Sure, there were external pressures ... but did anyone expect them to fall apart so quickly. The effective Reformers were in the party, they were not outside.

    Corby will meet a General Election soon (possibly very soon).

    He will either win (in which case Watson will momentarily shut up & take a Ministerial position) or he will lose (in which case Watson will be either king or kingmaker). Even if Corby wins an election and becomes PM, he is old and will move on. There are plenty of opportunities in the very near future for Watson to wheel and deal.

    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,684
    He’s absolutely right.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118
    Sandpit said:

    O/t but interesting development in our small town, where the locals are due in two months. Popular local man, active in all sorts of local 'good causes' has announced he's standing as an Independent. It's a two seat ward and he's got a running mate.

    Suddenly we have had a leaflet from the local Tories, for the first time since the last elections, announcing 'two independently minded conservatives'!

    Good to hear, more people getting involved in local democracy.
    Quite. The 'independently minded conservatives', the sitting councillors, have been notably quiet in local affairs since the last election in 2015 and but because they are conservatives 'participate in the decision making group". Or some form of words like that.
    It's quite amusing, actually, in a somewhat horrific way.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 18,538



    To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

    A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

    But the point is that the Soviet Union ... and even apartheid South Africa .... were reformed from within. Sure, there were external pressures ... but did anyone expect them to fall apart so quickly. The effective Reformers were in the party, they were not outside.

    Corby will meet a General Election soon (possibly very soon).

    He will either win (in which case Watson will momentarily shut up & take a Ministerial position) or he will lose (in which case Watson will be either king or kingmaker). Even if Corby wins an election and becomes PM, he is old and will move on. There are plenty of opportunities in the very near future for Watson to wheel and deal.

    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.
    The Soviet Union collapsed after the best part of a century. The Berlin Wall was up for 28 years.

    If the far left antisemites are going to be in control for that long it seems logical to try another method. Simply waiting isn't the answer.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,411



    To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

    A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

    But the point is that the Soviet Union ... and even apartheid South Africa .... were reformed from within. Sure, there were external pressures ... but did anyone expect them to fall apart so quickly. The effective Reformers were in the party, they were not outside.

    Corby will meet a General Election soon (possibly very soon).

    He will either win (in which case Watson will momentarily shut up & take a Ministerial position) or he will lose (in which case Watson will be either king or kingmaker). Even if Corby wins an election and becomes PM, he is old and will move on. There are plenty of opportunities in the very near future for Watson to wheel and deal.

    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.
    The Soviet Union collapsed after the best part of a century. The Berlin Wall was up for 28 years.

    If the far left antisemites are going to be in control for that long it seems logical to try another method. Simply waiting isn't the answer.
    Waiting is always the answer.

    (Also, I don't think the far-left antisemites are in control).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    Biggest risk for the Cons is that the Jezza implosion is gathering too much pace - could it all be over too soon ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,093
    edited March 5



    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

    ... unless he thinks that it will replace Labour, and is more to his advantage. (A machiavellian analysis).

    Will it? No idea.

    But sweet revenge if we have any Liberals who were there in 1920.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 20,005

    He’s absolutely right.
    Certainly if she made them during a GE campaign.

    Tories are really complacent on how popular Jezza's policies are imho. Yes, OGH is right to focus on leadership numbers, but there's a risk that he gets in despite that because of the economic stuff.

    May can't lead them into another GE. She has a total tin ear for retail politics.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 18,538



    To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

    A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

    But the point is that the Soviet Union ... and even apartheid South Africa .... were reformed from within. Sure, there were external pressures ... but did anyone expect them to fall apart so quickly. The effective Reformers were in the party, they were not outside.

    Corby will meet a General Election soon (possibly very soon).

    He will either win (in which case Watson will momentarily shut up & take a Ministerial position) or he will lose (in which case Watson will be either king or kingmaker). Even if Corby wins an election and becomes PM, he is old and will move on. There are plenty of opportunities in the very near future for Watson to wheel and deal.

    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.
    The Soviet Union collapsed after the best part of a century. The Berlin Wall was up for 28 years.

    If the far left antisemites are going to be in control for that long it seems logical to try another method. Simply waiting isn't the answer.
    Waiting is always the answer.

    (Also, I don't think the far-left antisemites are in control).
    No it is not.

    Those who were alive when the Soviet Union was formed were almost all dead by the time it collapsed. Similarly in other nations that take Corbyns politics seriously like North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba.

    While the Liberals have gone nearly a century now since they last formed a government. How Kong are they going to have to wait for before they take control again?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 2,944

    He’s absolutely right.
    Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

    I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 16,983



    To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

    A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

    But the point is that the Soviet Union ... and even apartheid South Africa .... were reformed from within. Sure, there were external pressures ... but did anyone expect them to fall apart so quickly. The effective Reformers were in the party, they were not outside.

    Corby will meet a General Election soon (possibly very soon).

    He will either win (in which case Watson will momentarily shut up & take a Ministerial position) or he will lose (in which case Watson will be either king or kingmaker). Even if Corby wins an election and becomes PM, he is old and will move on. There are plenty of opportunities in the very near future for Watson to wheel and deal.

    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.
    The Soviet Union collapsed after the best part of a century. The Berlin Wall was up for 28 years.

    If the far left antisemites are going to be in control for that long it seems logical to try another method. Simply waiting isn't the answer.
    Waiting is always the answer.

    (Also, I don't think the far-left antisemites are in control).
    No it is not.

    Those who were alive when the Soviet Union was formed were almost all dead by the time it collapsed. Similarly in other nations that take Corbyns politics seriously like North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba.

    While the Liberals have gone nearly a century now since they last formed a government. How Kong are they going to have to wait for before they take control again?
    I can answer that: very Kong indeed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118
    MattW said:



    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

    ... unless he thinks that it will replace Labour, and is more to his advantage. (A machiavellian analysis).

    Will it? No idea.

    But sweet revenge if we have any Liberals who were there in 1920.
    I was told, back in the 70's, as a Liberal agent, that I'd spent the last of the Lloyd George raised money... the way the guy was talking it was the sale of honours cash.
    So can I claim the 'sweet revenge'? If of course, the event happens!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 50,082
    How much of the High St does Mike Ashley own/have long leases on now ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763

    He’s absolutely right.
    Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

    I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance
    You will always hate the Tories more, no matter who leads them or Labour.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,038
    Good morning, everyone (again).

    Just been out for a bit. Feeling distinctly wintry.

    Both main parties have incompetent leadership.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570
    Was Yaxley-Lennon always deranged or is his derangement ramping up? It's almost like his behaviour is being 'stimulated' in some way.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118

    He’s absolutely right.
    Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

    I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance
    On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
    Who dunnit?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 591
    If May doesn’t allow a free vote next week on no deal and extension then she’s clearly completely lost the plot .

    The only way to avoid a Tory meltdown is a free vote .
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 591
    Looks like the Scottish Tory MPs will be voting against no deal . They seem to be very worried that no deal will help the independence vote in Scotland .
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863

    He’s absolutely right.
    Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

    I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance
    On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
    Who dunnit?
    Our village has a host of things for young people to do: not just kids, but teenagers as well. We have a very good leisure centre, clubs, and many activities. Yet we still have kids being asshats, burning things, causing low-level troubles.

    Although access to activities is no doubt a help, it is a much deeper problem than that.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 2,333

    He’s absolutely right.
    Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

    I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance
    On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
    Who dunnit?
    Our village has a host of things for young people to do: not just kids, but teenagers as well. We have a very good leisure centre, clubs, and many activities. Yet we still have kids being asshats, burning things, causing low-level troubles.

    Although access to activities is no doubt a help, it is a much deeper problem than that.
    Surely nobody would get involved with knife crime if there was a badminton court available
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863

    He’s absolutely right.
    Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

    I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance
    On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
    Who dunnit?
    Our village has a host of things for young people to do: not just kids, but teenagers as well. We have a very good leisure centre, clubs, and many activities. Yet we still have kids being asshats, burning things, causing low-level troubles.

    Although access to activities is no doubt a help, it is a much deeper problem than that.
    Surely nobody would get involved with knife crime if there was a badminton court available
    Fives court, please.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,038
    Mr. Divvie, turning up on people's doorsteps during the night is damned cretinous behaviour.

    Mr. Jessop, aye. Lack of youth clubs is no excuse for delinquency or crime. Still remember the shameful Sky interview with three masked thieves the night after they'd looted during the 2011 London 'riots', blaming cuts for their criminality.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167
    Scott_P said:
    Days since labour antisemitism issue....0....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167
    edited March 5

    He’s absolutely right.
    Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

    I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance
    On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
    Who dunnit?
    Our village has a host of things for young people to do: not just kids, but teenagers as well. We have a very good leisure centre, clubs, and many activities. Yet we still have kids being asshats, burning things, causing low-level troubles.

    Although access to activities is no doubt a help, it is a much deeper problem than that.
    Surely nobody would get involved with knife crime if there was a badminton court available
    In fact there is evidence in London that the drug gangs use places like youth centres to recruit for county lines....which according to former chief constable in Manchester in the radio yesterday on the main driver of this knife violence.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863

    Mr. Divvie, turning up on people's doorsteps during the night is damned cretinous behaviour.

    Mr. Jessop, aye. Lack of youth clubs is no excuse for delinquency or crime. Still remember the shameful Sky interview with three masked thieves the night after they'd looted during the 2011 London 'riots', blaming cuts for their criminality.

    I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

    They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,579
    The devil makes work for idle hands. Lack of appropriate recreational activities for teenagers will make inappropriate recreational activities attractive.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    edited March 5
    Steff owned a restaurant in Soho. A Grande-Dame of the theatre. She dressed from head to foot in black and was festooned in gold bangles and chains. Though in her 60's she wore her hair long and blond . One day I was eating in there and she used a Northern word so I asked her if she was from the north. In her booming voice she laughed and said she was originally from Bolton.

    She said the last time she went back was 18 years ago for a funeral. She said there were three old biddies talking together and she overheard one of them say "What does she think she's come as?"

    I was reminded of that great line yesterday when I saw the Shadow Police Minister standing at the dispatch box.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 15,381
    "there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues not to have the level of backing from his MPs as you’d expect an opposition leader to enjoy."

    This is true, although it doesn't take much amendment for it to equally validly say " there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues to have [no more] backing from his MPs [than] you’d expect an opposition leader [6-8 points behind in the polls at a time when the government is deeply split on its flagship policy] to enjoy."
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,290

    The devil makes work for idle hands. Lack of appropriate recreational activities for teenagers will make inappropriate recreational activities attractive.

    What are appropriate (i.e. engaging and absorbing) recreational activities for teenagers today?
    In the instant gratification high energy world of instant communications and electronic wizardry the issue is to find the activities that have the pazazz to attract and retain the interest of teens.

    It isn't all about facilities and staff, it is about satisfying a demand that is the creation of the last 30 years or so.

  • Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118

    Mr. Divvie, turning up on people's doorsteps during the night is damned cretinous behaviour.

    Mr. Jessop, aye. Lack of youth clubs is no excuse for delinquency or crime. Still remember the shameful Sky interview with three masked thieves the night after they'd looted during the 2011 London 'riots', blaming cuts for their criminality.

    I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

    They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.
    No one thing provides the whole answer. I don't think anyone would suggest that, but the point I was trying to make is that, while there are clearly not enough police, especially given other newer matters with which they have to deal, cutting youth services is at best extremely unhelpful.
    The point was also made on TV yesterday that 'county lines' drug gangs selling, especially, cocaine are feeding a middle class habit..... a line or two snorted after dinner. There is, maybe, a case for chasing more county lines end customers.
    There is also a very strong case for reviewing the laws relating to drugs of addiction.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,093
    edited March 5

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:


    It took Labour 13 years for centrists to regain control of the party after Foot was elected in 1980 and Militant gained influence

    No, it took 3 years. Foot was elected leader in 1980, he left office in 1983, to be succeeded by Kinnock.

    It took the SDP much longer to break the mould. In fact we're still waiting.

    (I note it is acknowledged Tories who are so enthusiastic about the Labour moderates splitting. I wonder why ... I wonder why)
    Just because they'd be happy doesn't mean it's not also a good idea. If the only reason someone wont split is because of hatred for another what a depressing situation that is.

    I hope they both split more, but I think Watson and co have seen off the Tiggers. Those that are left see it as a fight to have.
    Maybe a fight which they all but know will be lost and which will help eventually prepare the ground for a much bigger split.

    The case for a split is that Labour is confirmed irredemably as an extremist party and as such its electoral destiny will follow the path trod earlier by the Parti Communiste Francaise.
    I really doubt that is right. Nothing is irredeemable in politics.

    The reason why Corby's position was strengthened was because he was electorally more successful than anyone ever imagined (albeit in a very odd election against a very poor opponent). Corby deserves credit for that.

    But another GE defeat would see Corby in his allotment.

    For sure, his successor is not going to be another Blair (thank God), but it will be someone like Thornberry, or ..... even Watson.
    The Defenestration of Corbyn, whilst desirable imo, will not deal with the antisemitism which is now in the bones in some parts of the Party.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 1,960
    edited March 5
    Roger said:

    Steff owned a restaurant in Soho. A Grande-Dame of the theatre. She dressed from head to foot in black and was festooned in gold bangles and chains. Though in her 60's she wore her hair long and blond . One day I was eating in there and she used a Northern word so I asked her if she was from the north. In her booming voice she laughed and said she was originally from Bolton.

    She said the last time she went back was 18 years ago for a funeral. She said there were three old biddies talking together and she overheard one of them say "What does she think she's come as?"

    I was reminded of that great line yesterday when I saw the Shadow Police Minister standing at the dispatch box.

    God, Steffs, haven't thought about that in years, Happy days!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,290

    Mr. Divvie, turning up on people's doorsteps during the night is damned cretinous behaviour.

    Mr. Jessop, aye. Lack of youth clubs is no excuse for delinquency or crime. Still remember the shameful Sky interview with three masked thieves the night after they'd looted during the 2011 London 'riots', blaming cuts for their criminality.

    I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

    They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.
    No one thing provides the whole answer. I don't think anyone would suggest that, but the point I was trying to make is that, while there are clearly not enough police, especially given other newer matters with which they have to deal, cutting youth services is at best extremely unhelpful.
    The point was also made on TV yesterday that 'county lines' drug gangs selling, especially, cocaine are feeding a middle class habit..... a line or two snorted after dinner. There is, maybe, a case for chasing more county lines end customers.
    There is also a very strong case for reviewing the laws relating to drugs of addiction.
    To correct your last line (in my opinion)

    There is a very strong case for reviewing the laws relating to drugs and legalisation of drugs.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 6,545

    "there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues not to have the level of backing from his MPs as you’d expect an opposition leader to enjoy."

    This is true, although it doesn't take much amendment for it to equally validly say " there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues to have [no more] backing from his MPs [than] you’d expect an opposition leader [6-8 points behind in the polls at a time when the government is deeply split on its flagship policy] to enjoy."

    I think there are also quite a substantial number of Labour MPs who are somewhat relieved that Corbyn is not leading in the polls. A modest election defeat followed by a new leader would be very welcome to them. Having to deal with Corbyn in Number 10 would be a torment.

    I can't think of any other time when this has been true.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,044



    I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

    They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.

    Yeah, if the devilment is in you, it'll come out no matter what.

    My boarding school had every recreational facility imaginable and I was still a delinquent. I once fired a freshly sharpened HB into the back of another boy's head from a homemade crossbow because I was bored in Bridge club.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,089
    More reason to get the Brexit vote passed. Anything that pisses off Orange Bookers, Lib Dems, Tiggers and the ERG is OK with me.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,142


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Brexit should be at the top of this list.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    Steff owned a restaurant in Soho. A Grande-Dame of the theatre. She dressed from head to foot in black and was festooned in gold bangles and chains. Though in her 60's she wore her hair long and blond . One day I was eating in there and she used a Northern word so I asked her if she was from the north. In her booming voice she laughed and said she was originally from Bolton.

    She said the last time she went back was 18 years ago for a funeral. She said there were three old biddies talking together and she overheard one of them say "What does she think she's come as?"

    I was reminded of that great line yesterday when I saw the Shadow Police Minister standing at the dispatch box.

    God, Steffs, haven't thought about that in years, Happy days!
    Happy days indeed! I used to love the place. So unjudgemental!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 147


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167
    philiph said:

    The devil makes work for idle hands. Lack of appropriate recreational activities for teenagers will make inappropriate recreational activities attractive.

    What are appropriate (i.e. engaging and absorbing) recreational activities for teenagers today?
    In the instant gratification high energy world of instant communications and electronic wizardry the issue is to find the activities that have the pazazz to attract and retain the interest of teens.

    It isn't all about facilities and staff, it is about satisfying a demand that is the creation of the last 30 years or so.
    This is an interesting point. When most of us were kids unless you went to organised stuff you either didn’t see your mates or just hung around on the street corner. Now it is all fifa, fortnite and now apex legends which kids play while chatting to their mates on discoord. Even the good kids don’t want to go to some crappy youth centre to play pool or wiff waff.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 20,005

    "there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues not to have the level of backing from his MPs as you’d expect an opposition leader to enjoy."

    This is true, although it doesn't take much amendment for it to equally validly say " there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues to have [no more] backing from his MPs [than] you’d expect an opposition leader [6-8 points behind in the polls at a time when the government is deeply split on its flagship policy] to enjoy."

    I think there are also quite a substantial number of Labour MPs who are somewhat relieved that Corbyn is not leading in the polls. A modest election defeat followed by a new leader would be very welcome to them. Having to deal with Corbyn in Number 10 would be a torment.

    I can't think of any other time when this has been true.
    They must really be looking forward to Williamson leading the party.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570
    Dura_Ace said:



    I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

    They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.

    Yeah, if the devilment is in you, it'll come out no matter what.

    My boarding school had every recreational facility imaginable and I was still a delinquent. I once fired a freshly sharpened HB into the back of another boy's head from a homemade crossbow because I was bored in Bridge club.
    I hope it was one of those pencils with a rubber on the end of it.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,354

    MattW said:



    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

    ... unless he thinks that it will replace Labour, and is more to his advantage. (A machiavellian analysis).

    Will it? No idea.

    But sweet revenge if we have any Liberals who were there in 1920.
    I was told, back in the 70's, as a Liberal agent, that I'd spent the last of the Lloyd George raised money... the way the guy was talking it was the sale of honours cash.
    So can I claim the 'sweet revenge'? If of course, the event happens!
    A footnote to Rinkagate is that Jeremy Thorpe also appeared to be selling honours. Mind you, the other parties have at least come close.

  • Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Brexit should be at the top of this list.

    Yes I can't believe I forgot Brexit! You could hate the Tories for the rest of eternity on the back of that alone.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167
    Number of minutes since labour antisemitism issue...0

    Jewish Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge has expressed fresh concerns about how her party is handling accusations of anti-Semitism.
    In a letter to Jeremy Corbyn, she claims she has been misled over assurances that his office was not involved in any disciplinary process.
    "Either you have intentionally misled me or your staff have been misleading you," she complained.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Decent list.
    I'd add the creepy claims to progressiveness in an effort to convince the gullible that they're not the same old Tories. Of course the last two and a half years have been a great cleansing corrective to that auld bollocks.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,089
    edited March 5
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1095710/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Theresa-May-no-deal-today-latest-date-Brussels

    Brexit CIVIL WAR: Britons REACT to Brexit stalemate – 'Cameron needs his bottom SPANKED'

    Trouble is he might enjoy it.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,354

    He’s absolutely right.
    Certainly if she made them during a GE campaign.

    Tories are really complacent on how popular Jezza's policies are imho. Yes, OGH is right to focus on leadership numbers, but there's a risk that he gets in despite that because of the economic stuff.

    May can't lead them into another GE. She has a total tin ear for retail politics.
    Of course, this exchange between Corbyn and May on police numbers did occur at the last election.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 15,381



    Maybe a fight which they all but know will be lost and which will help eventually prepare the ground for a much bigger split.

    The case for a split is that Labour is confirmed irredemably as an extremist party and as such its electoral destiny will follow the path trod earlier by the Parti Communiste Francaise.

    I really doubt that is right. Nothing is irredeemable in politics.

    The reason why Corby's position was strengthened was because he was electorally more successful than anyone ever imagined (albeit in a very odd election against a very poor opponent). Corby deserves credit for that.

    But another GE defeat would see Corbyn in his allotment.

    For sure, his successor is not going to be another Blair (thank God), but it will be someone like Thornberry, or ..... even Watson.
    Nothing is necessarily irredeemable (well, that's not quite true - I don't see how the Mongol empire can be put back together), but nor will everything necessarily be redeemed. Where are the 'Continuity' SDP, Veritas, Common Wealth, or BNP now? Some parties fail, even big parties. Look at the Canadian Conservatives, the Christian Democrats in many European countries (but notably Italy), perhaps the French Socialists or the UK Liberals. The Liberals did of course make a comeback, though are once again struggling, but could easily have folded in the 1950s, particularly when Churchill sought to bring them under the Tories' wing.

    I agree that Corbyn probably can't survive another election defeat - but then he'll be into his 70s by then (his 70th birthday is toward the end of May). There'd be a perfectly good argument for his retiring solely on age grounds if he could quite easily be into his late 70s by the time of the election following. The big question then is who succeeds him. Labour got lucky in one sense in 1983 that their defeat was so bad that Tony Benn lost his seat and so wasn't eligible to stand for the leadership. Had he been (had, for that matter, Benn represented a safer seat), he might easily have won. What then for Labour's future? More defections to the SDP and a real revolution in 1987 after Labour backed the law-breaking of the NUM and centre-left voters migrated? It's possible. And from third place, it's a long and difficult road back.

    Fortunately for Labour at the moment, the Lib Dems are also an irrelevance on a national level (unlike the mid-1980s, when they consistently polled 25%+), and TIG seem to have no strategic plan.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,354

    Number of minutes since labour antisemitism issue...0

    Jewish Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge has expressed fresh concerns about how her party is handling accusations of anti-Semitism.
    In a letter to Jeremy Corbyn, she claims she has been misled over assurances that his office was not involved in any disciplinary process.
    "Either you have intentionally misled me or your staff have been misleading you," she complained.

    Number of pb threads this has been posted on this very morning: 2.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167

    Number of minutes since labour antisemitism issue...0

    Jewish Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge has expressed fresh concerns about how her party is handling accusations of anti-Semitism.
    In a letter to Jeremy Corbyn, she claims she has been misled over assurances that his office was not involved in any disciplinary process.
    "Either you have intentionally misled me or your staff have been misleading you," she complained.

    Number of pb threads this has been posted on this very morning: 2.
    Only just been reported on bbc news...Pb always ahead of the news.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 15,381
    No, they wouldn't. The next election is 3 years away and without Brexit, the Tories would be using the much smaller-than-expected deficits to shove money into public services like the police. It's because of the possible economic impact of a No Deal Brexit that it's much more difficult to do so now (though I expect Hammond will be forced to still find some).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    "The treatment of the miners"

    Christ - time team stuff.

    What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 27,373

    The devil makes work for idle hands. Lack of appropriate recreational activities for teenagers will make inappropriate recreational activities attractive.

    Indeed. It isn’t all about police numbers, and I’m yet to see a compelling causal link.

    I spent a lot of my time as a teenager doing sports, at clubs, and camping and hiking with friends.

    I’m not sure how many of those options are easily available in inner cities.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 27,373


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Yep, a lot of irrational prejudice and confirmation bias.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 3,342

    He’s absolutely right.
    +1
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 27,373
    TGOHF said:

    "The treatment of the miners"

    Christ - time team stuff.

    What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

    I’m surprised he didn’t mention the corn laws.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040

    Dura_Ace said:



    I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

    They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.

    Yeah, if the devilment is in you, it'll come out no matter what.

    My boarding school had every recreational facility imaginable and I was still a delinquent. I once fired a freshly sharpened HB into the back of another boy's head from a homemade crossbow because I was bored in Bridge club.
    I hope it was one of those pencils with a rubber on the end of it.
    You mean they were that desperate for contraceptives??!
  • FensterFenster Posts: 1,789
    TGOHF said:

    "The treatment of the miners"

    Christ - time team stuff.

    What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

    Who was it who went into the strike with a big union and a small house and came out of it with a small union and a big house?

    I'm from a mining family in a mining village and if Scargill and Thatcher turned up Scargill would get shot first.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 15,381

    "there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues not to have the level of backing from his MPs as you’d expect an opposition leader to enjoy."

    This is true, although it doesn't take much amendment for it to equally validly say " there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues to have [no more] backing from his MPs [than] you’d expect an opposition leader [6-8 points behind in the polls at a time when the government is deeply split on its flagship policy] to enjoy."

    I think there are also quite a substantial number of Labour MPs who are somewhat relieved that Corbyn is not leading in the polls. A modest election defeat followed by a new leader would be very welcome to them. Having to deal with Corbyn in Number 10 would be a torment.

    I can't think of any other time when this has been true.
    Lansbury.

    Not that it was at all likely but had an avowedly pacifist leader led Labour into the 1935 election (or 1936, had Labour been polling well in by-elections causing Baldwin to delay), and won it, there would have been grave consequences for the country and the world.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570
    Fenster said:

    TGOHF said:

    "The treatment of the miners"

    Christ - time team stuff.

    What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

    Who was it who went into the strike with a big union and a small house and came out of it with a small union and a big house?

    I'm from a mining family in a mining village and if Scargill and Thatcher turned up Scargill would get shot first.
    But Thatcher would still get shot, right?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 15,381
    DougSeal said:


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
    Congratulations on holding a grievance for so long that everyone involved in the policy is long-since retired, if not dead. Perhaps you might like to add opposition to the Great Reform Act too?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863
    Off-topic, and NSFW:

    Whether leaver or remainer, Conservative or Labour, we can agree the following is rather funny:


    and

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 1,874


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Yep, a lot of irrational prejudice and confirmation bias.
    Nice he managed to get in a boast about his personal wealth lol. Typical socialist!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,038
    F1: markets up.

    Just the winner's market for Oz, but the winner with the big six title market is back, and there are a few specials.

    For the winner market, Verstappen and Gasly are 8.5 and 34 respectively. Everything else is a bit tight.

    Going beyond the big six, there's 201 available even on Ricciardo. But the predominance of the aforementioned top teams is likely to remain.

    Not betting just yet. Red Bull *might* be too long.
  • TGOHF said:

    "The treatment of the miners"

    Christ - time team stuff.

    What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

    I’m surprised he didn’t mention the corn laws.
    I forgot about the corn laws. But weren't the Tories famously on both sides of that one?
    Perhaps I am showing my age, but I was a kid in the North East of England in the mid 80s so the miners strike was kind of a big deal.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 5,732
    DougSeal said:


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
    Section 28 was an abomination. It's gone and now the Tory Party are largely ok with LBGT rights. I cannot speak for their membership, of course.

    I note with some irony the Labour MP for Birmingham Ladywood has been campaigning against LGBT awareness lesson in schools.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 50,082
    Is his first name of swedish heritage or from ? אסא
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,354

    DougSeal said:


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
    Congratulations on holding a grievance for so long that everyone involved in the policy is long-since retired, if not dead. Perhaps you might like to add opposition to the Great Reform Act too?
    Ted Heath taking us into Europe might be more apposite; ironically, for his own party :)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 18,538
    Anorak said:

    DougSeal said:


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
    Section 28 was an abomination. It's gone and now the Tory Party are largely ok with LBGT rights. I cannot speak for their membership, of course.

    I note with some irony the Labour MP for Birmingham Ladywood has been campaigning against LGBT awareness lesson in schools.
    Indeed. Section 28 was wrong but then it was a Tory PM who legalised gay marriage. So times have changed.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 1,874


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Decent list.
    I'd add the creepy claims to progressiveness in an effort to convince the gullible that they're not the same old Tories. Of course the last two and a half years have been a great cleansing corrective to that auld bollocks.
    Possibly similar to creepy claims from Nationalists that they are inclusive, with their efforts to convince the gullible that they are not really the nasty, hate filled bigots that we all know they are!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 10,187


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    BiB - nothing to stop you donating to HMRC. All proceeds greatly received.

  • Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Yep, a lot of irrational prejudice and confirmation bias.
    Nice he managed to get in a boast about his personal wealth lol. Typical socialist!
    I can't help it if I am considerably richer than yaow. I knew if I didn't mention it someone would accuse me of the politics of envy. I know how you people operate!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040


    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

    Do you still hate the Germans for the Blitz??
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 15,381

    DougSeal said:


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
    Congratulations on holding a grievance for so long that everyone involved in the policy is long-since retired, if not dead. Perhaps you might like to add opposition to the Great Reform Act too?
    Ted Heath taking us into Europe might be more apposite; ironically, for his own party :)
    I think that would be more of a problem for Tory-supporters than Tory haters? (And for completion, Heath was only completing the work that his two predecessors began, so you should blame Macmilland and ADH as well).
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 15,381
    edited March 5

    TGOHF said:

    "The treatment of the miners"

    Christ - time team stuff.

    What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

    I’m surprised he didn’t mention the corn laws.
    I forgot about the corn laws. But weren't the Tories famously on both sides of that one?
    Perhaps I am showing my age, but I was a kid in the North East of England in the mid 80s so the miners strike was kind of a big deal.
    The miners' strike and Thatcher are still a big deal for Labour activists who want to refight old fights they lost but (wrongly) believe they were in the right about, and want a distraction from current problems. The issue is still referenced in Wakefield Council meetings every year.

    The Tories were on both sides of the Corn Laws debate but it was the side (Peel and followers, including Gladstone), who broke away and ultimately merged into what became the Liberal party, so you can have that issue from 173 years ago as well.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118

    MattW said:



    Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

    ... unless he thinks that it will replace Labour, and is more to his advantage. (A machiavellian analysis).

    Will it? No idea.

    But sweet revenge if we have any Liberals who were there in 1920.
    I was told, back in the 70's, as a Liberal agent, that I'd spent the last of the Lloyd George raised money... the way the guy was talking it was the sale of honours cash.
    So can I claim the 'sweet revenge'? If of course, the event happens!
    A footnote to Rinkagate is that Jeremy Thorpe also appeared to be selling honours. Mind you, the other parties have at least come close.
    You mean as in exchange for Gannex Macs?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    Decent list.
    I'd add the creepy claims to progressiveness in an effort to convince the gullible that they're not the same old Tories. Of course the last two and a half years have been a great cleansing corrective to that auld bollocks.
    Possibly similar to creepy claims from Nationalists that they are inclusive, with their efforts to convince the gullible that they are not really the nasty, hate filled bigots that we all know they are!
    Pavlov's yapper kicks off again.

    You can probably get some therapy based treatment for this OCD thing you have, if the Tories haven't reamed out the budget for your mental health trust.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118
    philiph said:

    Mr. Divvie, turning up on people's doorsteps during the night is damned cretinous behaviour.

    Mr. Jessop, aye. Lack of youth clubs is no excuse for delinquency or crime. Still remember the shameful Sky interview with three masked thieves the night after they'd looted during the 2011 London 'riots', blaming cuts for their criminality.

    I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

    They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.
    No one thing provides the whole answer. I don't think anyone would suggest that, but the point I was trying to make is that, while there are clearly not enough police, especially given other newer matters with which they have to deal, cutting youth services is at best extremely unhelpful.
    The point was also made on TV yesterday that 'county lines' drug gangs selling, especially, cocaine are feeding a middle class habit..... a line or two snorted after dinner. There is, maybe, a case for chasing more county lines end customers.
    There is also a very strong case for reviewing the laws relating to drugs of addiction.
    To correct your last line (in my opinion)

    There is a very strong case for reviewing the laws relating to drugs and legalisation of drugs.
    Much better put! Thank you.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 50,082
    On mining, Labour closed plenty of pits !

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570

    Anorak said:

    DougSeal said:


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
    Section 28 was an abomination. It's gone and now the Tory Party are largely ok with LBGT rights. I cannot speak for their membership, of course.

    I note with some irony the Labour MP for Birmingham Ladywood has been campaigning against LGBT awareness lesson in schools.
    Indeed. Section 28 was wrong but then it was a Tory PM who legalised gay marriage. So times have changed.
    Marvellous work by Dave, and against a majority of his own mps as well.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 147

    DougSeal said:


    Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

    Why?
    I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
    Windrush scandal
    Go Home vans
    Cuts to school spending
    Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
    The treatment of the miners
    The poll tax
    Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
    Section 28
    Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
    Margaret Thatcher
    Margaret Thatcher's voice
    Tory attitude towards Ireland
    Fox hunting
    Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
    Food banks
    Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
    Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
    Privatised trains
    George Osborne's face

    I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.
    +1

    As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.
    Congratulations on holding a grievance for so long that everyone involved in the policy is long-since retired, if not dead. Perhaps you might like to add opposition to the Great Reform Act too?
    That party’s current leader, our present Prime Minister, then Shadow Education Minister, called the Lords’ defeat of Section 28’s attempted repeal in 2000 as being a “victory for common sense”. So, no, the highest echelons of the current party have been involved in seeking to retain the policy on the statute book. They don’t change. Cameron had a stab at changing them but it didn’t stick.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 4,882
    Morning all :)

    Extraordinary to see the Prime Minister's comments about the reduction in Police numbers not being related to rising knife crime not being more widely discussed. I suspect if you asked most people how they would combat crime the answer might be more Police on the streets (and more stop and search powers arguably).

    On topic, none of this is any surprise. Corbyn keeps May and the Conservatives in business to a considerable extent. The fear of him and all his works is one of the big factors shoring up the Conservative vote share - the other is for now the Conservatives have taken in leavers but kept their share of remainers

    I disagree with the central assertion were Labour led by a centrist they would be miles ahead in the polls. If there were no Brexit, perhaps but if a centrist Labour leader backed remain that would alienate the core of Labour leavers still further. The divisions in Labour on a second vote would still exist and would be causing the centrist leader a lot of problems.

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,679
    Pulpstar said:

    On mining, Labour closed plenty of pits !

    IIRC more were closed during the Wilson/Callaghan years than in the period from 1979 to the Miners' Strike
This discussion has been closed.