Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year on since Corbyn’s anti-semitic mural row and the issue

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited March 11 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year on since Corbyn’s anti-semitic mural row and the issue continues to plague LAB and its leader

It was in March last year that the antisemitic row within LAB gathered media traction following the revelation of his positive response on Facebook in 2012 to what was clearly an anti-semitic mural on the wall of a building in East London. That led amongst other things to demonstrations in Parliament Square against him and the party.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040
    First unlike Labour!
  • dotsdots Posts: 438
    Second. Like consequence
    Clearly the Sunhil comes out in the middle of the night.

    Can’t imagine May all willing to resign if the votes go against her. But she could make other votes, such as for delay, non binding on the government to avoid the sense of losing control?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 10,428
    dots said:

    Second. Like consequence
    Clearly the Sunhil comes out in the middle of the night.

    Can’t imagine May all willing to resign if the votes go against her. But she could make other votes, such as for delay, non binding on the government to avoid the sense of losing control?

    If that's the goal there are two ways to play it. The first is like you say, basically ignore parliament. But this just multiplies the problems because parliament can make more votes, which you will also lose. The second is to lean into it and define doing the job of PM as faithfully executing the will of parliament. Announce what you'll do if the vote is passed, and if it's passed, go ahead and do it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 22,237

    dots said:

    Second. Like consequence
    Clearly the Sunhil comes out in the middle of the night.

    Can’t imagine May all willing to resign if the votes go against her. But she could make other votes, such as for delay, non binding on the government to avoid the sense of losing control?

    If that's the goal there are two ways to play it. The first is like you say, basically ignore parliament. But this just multiplies the problems because parliament can make more votes, which you will also lose. The second is to lean into it and define doing the job of PM as faithfully executing the will of parliament. Announce what you'll do if the vote is passed, and if it's passed, go ahead and do it.
    And fundamentally upend the constitution in the process

    The executive has a different role to Parliament
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,086
    I wonder if she's really going to ignore Parliament, I mean she could, what are they going to do if she says, "sorry I asked for an extension but they said no / imposed impossible conditions"

    Would any Tory MPs actually VNOC their own PM ?

    Worst case scenario this ends up on the Queens desk, God knows the poor woman doesn't need this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613
    edited March 11

    if it's passed

    Can we stick to reality please?

    What we need is an outline of what she will do when it fails (which should include resigning but probably won't given how stubborn she is).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613
    Well, the Chinese are clearly highly suspicious about this Ethiopian air disaster, or they are hitting the US over this trade war:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47519929

    I have to say though I think they're making the right call, whatever their reasons for it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 43,661
    Theresa May has been urged by senior Conservative MPs to pull tomorrow’s meaningful vote on her Brexit deal if she fails to secure significant concessions from Brussels.

    In phone calls with Downing Street, leading Tories in the Commons warned that the prime minister could face another three-figure defeat if she went ahead with her plan.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-vote-must-be-put-on-hold-mps-warn-theresa-may-3jkhl37gm

    This is why Brexit will forever be a total omnishambles...

    Michael Gove, the environment secretary, says in today’s Daily Mail that MPs should back the deal, adding: “Everyone who believes in democracy should support it.” The former foreign secretary Boris Johnson used his column in The Daily Telegraph to call for MPs to oppose the deal and “do nothing further to weaken the UK position”.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613
    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118
    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    Seconded. Bit like a stopped clock; it's right twice a day!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 10,428
    ydoethur said:

    if it's passed

    Can we stick to reality please?

    What we need is an outline of what she will do when it fails (which should include resigning but probably won't given how stubborn she is).
    Sorry, I wasn't thinking of the deal, which seems like it's obviously not going to pass, although all kinds of weird shit has been happening in this timeline lately so who knows. I was thinking about the other votes, like the Extension > No Deal one and potentially PV.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 10,428
    Charles said:

    dots said:

    Second. Like consequence
    Clearly the Sunhil comes out in the middle of the night.

    Can’t imagine May all willing to resign if the votes go against her. But she could make other votes, such as for delay, non binding on the government to avoid the sense of losing control?

    If that's the goal there are two ways to play it. The first is like you say, basically ignore parliament. But this just multiplies the problems because parliament can make more votes, which you will also lose. The second is to lean into it and define doing the job of PM as faithfully executing the will of parliament. Announce what you'll do if the vote is passed, and if it's passed, go ahead and do it.
    And fundamentally upend the constitution in the process

    The executive has a different role to Parliament
    Disagree, the Crown vs Parliament stuff is all mushy enough that nobody can really say which way up the constitution is supposed to go. Best just to try stuff it in there a couple of different ways and twist it around until it seems like it'll stick.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,804
    ydoethur said:

    if it's passed

    Can we stick to reality please?

    What we need is an outline of what she will do when it fails (which should include resigning but probably won't given how stubborn she is).
    She should already have resigned when

    - she lost the majority or when

    - she had a majority of the non-payroll Tory MPs voted against her or when

    - she spent two years negotiating a deal, using her own hand-picked team, that then received the biggest cross-party raspberry in Parliamentary history.

    None of which have stopped her buggering on to date. She will argue that whoever comes in to replace her will face an identical immoveable EU position. Her strategy has poisoned the well for whoever comes after.

    The '22 could change the rules, if they sensed that she has lost the confidence of the party. But they won't.

    The Cabinet could resign. But they are shit-scared of her successor either not being them, or else whoever does succeed May turfing them out of their ministerial role. If they had workable legs, they would already have walked.

    Even if her deal as is gets through by arm-twisting or blackmailing or bribing, it kills the relationship with the DUP going forward. So the death of her deal which might briefly keep the DUP happy until they revert to their default-setting of Having a Grievance. But it likely also causes the death of her party, by failing to deliver Brexit. The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    But this is not a presidential election. She needs to get MPs elected, signed up to a manifesto that will implement Brexit - ah, just like she did in 2017. Hmmmm....

    Theresa May really has proved to be monumentally inept. Every outlook is bleak.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613
    Have the EU finally come across a scenario where can kicking doesn't work?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118
    ydoethur said:

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
    To be fair, what does work? Apart from The Deal?

    Which seems to simply kick the can down the road until the end of next year.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613

    ydoethur said:

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
    To be fair, what does work?
    Well, yes. That's why it may be the only way out, but it will require some fast footwork.

  • I wonder if she's really going to ignore Parliament, I mean she could, what are they going to do if she says, "sorry I asked for an extension but they said no / imposed impossible conditions"

    Would any Tory MPs actually VNOC their own PM ?

    Worst case scenario this ends up on the Queens desk, God knows the poor woman doesn't need this.

    It doesn’t need to end on HMQs desk. As has been said before, parliament can vote how they like but it doesn’t bind the executive. No deal is the default legal position and any motion to stop it fails if ministers indicate such motion will not receive the Queen’s consent (which is their power not hers)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,804

    ydoethur said:

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
    To be fair, what does work? Apart from The Deal?

    Which seems to simply kick the can down the road until the end of next year.
    No Deal gets us an outcome. But politicians jumping on the self-reinforcing rhetoric of how it would be a disaster - and the lack of planning for it should it happen - mean it is seen not as a negotiating tool as much as a first nuclear strike on Russia.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 43,661
    Brexiteers have yet to face up to the obvious fact that there is no version of Brexit that can make it through the commons. There is no version of Brexit they can agree on themselves, let alone anyone else.

    It is a doomed project.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 43,661

    No Deal gets us an outcome. But politicians jumping on the self-reinforcing rhetoric of how it would be a disaster

    Once again you confuse rhetoric with reality...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118

    ydoethur said:

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
    To be fair, what does work? Apart from The Deal?

    Which seems to simply kick the can down the road until the end of next year.
    No Deal gets us an outcome. But politicians jumping on the self-reinforcing rhetoric of how it would be a disaster - and the lack of planning for it should it happen - mean it is seen not as a negotiating tool as much as a first nuclear strike on Russia.
    Quite. I really can't see how No Deal, and the UK 'just leaving' on 29th March would not result in almighty chaos.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,038
    Good morning, everyone.

    Cutting cartoon (not that that's a bad thing. Indeed, many early cartoonists were into political satire).

    Damned cold outside. Glad it wasn't a bit wetter, the drive was icy enough as it is.
  • eekeek Posts: 3,169
    ydoethur said:

    Well, the Chinese are clearly highly suspicious about this Ethiopian air disaster, or they are hitting the US over this trade war:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47519929

    I have to say though I think they're making the right call, whatever their reasons for it.

    Two planes have now crashed fairly soon after takeoff and the model supposedly has a new control mechasim. I think removing the planes from duty is unavoidable until the cause of the accidents is at least vaguely identified
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,804
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
    To be fair, what does work?
    Well, yes. That's why it may be the only way out, but it will require some fast footwork.

    It requires a new PM in very short order though. No way can May be allowed to bask in some reflected glory that she has done a wonderful thing in threading the Brexit needle. She gets told she will get ERG votes on the basis she resigns, either for an interim PM or once her successor has been appointed.

    That new PM will get the job if they threaten to walk away from her deal if the trade talks with the EU don't hit their acceptable milestones - whilst planning for WTO terms in the interim.

    But at least we will have left the EU.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,118

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
    To be fair, what does work?
    Well, yes. That's why it may be the only way out, but it will require some fast footwork.

    It requires a new PM in very short order though. No way can May be allowed to bask in some reflected glory that she has done a wonderful thing in threading the Brexit needle. She gets told she will get ERG votes on the basis she resigns, either for an interim PM or once her successor has been appointed.

    That new PM will get the job if they threaten to walk away from her deal if the trade talks with the EU don't hit their acceptable milestones - whilst planning for WTO terms in the interim.

    But at least we will have left the EU.
    Is she to be trusted to keep her side of any bargain?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613
    edited March 11
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Well, the Chinese are clearly highly suspicious about this Ethiopian air disaster, or they are hitting the US over this trade war:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47519929

    I have to say though I think they're making the right call, whatever their reasons for it.

    Two planes have now crashed fairly soon after takeoff and the model supposedly has a new control mechasim. I think removing the planes from duty is unavoidable until the cause of the accidents is at least vaguely identified
    Agreed, particularly as the first one was a technical fault.

    Edit - a little research on CNN reveals this aircraft had flown just 1400 hours.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/investing/boeing-737-crash/index.html

    There doesn't seem to have been a problem with the weather. The pilot had 8,000 hours of flight time logged. Even allowing for Adis Ababa not being the easiest of aerodromes to fly from given its altitude, this is a very strange accident indeed. Even though I'm no expert I can see it should not have happened.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 6,545
    447 hours 30-ish minutes. I presume May will ask people to back her deal now and to give her more time to secure changes to the deal at the EU summit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,804

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The best way out is a General Election, where she sells her deal directly to the voters. The TINA election. Corbyn is an anti-semite with a fantasy for an alternative. My deal works, and is there ready to sign up.

    I am rapidly coming to the same conclusion, but as Justin has pointed out the timings simply don't work.
    To be fair, what does work?
    Well, yes. That's why it may be the only way out, but it will require some fast footwork.

    It requires a new PM in very short order though. No way can May be allowed to bask in some reflected glory that she has done a wonderful thing in threading the Brexit needle. She gets told she will get ERG votes on the basis she resigns, either for an interim PM or once her successor has been appointed.

    That new PM will get the job if they threaten to walk away from her deal if the trade talks with the EU don't hit their acceptable milestones - whilst planning for WTO terms in the interim.

    But at least we will have left the EU.
    Is she to be trusted to keep her side of any bargain?
    If she tried to renege, then the '22 would change the rules. They would have double the required number of letters within the hour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 10,599
    It was reported on the radio this morning that the UK banking assets which have now been moved to the EU will cost the UK around 1% of its annual tax take - somewhere around £7 to 8 billion.

    Is that correct ?

    If so, the Brexit dividend is looking rather unconvincing.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 1,296
    So is MV2 happening tomorrow or not?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 16,613

    So is MV2 happening tomorrow or not?

    Who knows? Who even cares at this stage, given we already have a fair idea of the result?

    Every MP needs to go at the next election. Clean slate from the ground up.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,369

    447 hours 30-ish minutes. I presume May will ask people to back her deal now and to give her more time to secure changes to the deal at the EU summit.
    Caneronesque, and Cameron's new deal wasn't worth the paper it was written on..
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,036
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Well, the Chinese are clearly highly suspicious about this Ethiopian air disaster, or they are hitting the US over this trade war:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47519929

    I have to say though I think they're making the right call, whatever their reasons for it.

    Two planes have now crashed fairly soon after takeoff and the model supposedly has a new control mechasim. I think removing the planes from duty is unavoidable until the cause of the accidents is at least vaguely identified
    Agreed, particularly as the first one was a technical fault.

    Edit - a little research on CNN reveals this aircraft had flown just 1400 hours.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/investing/boeing-737-crash/index.html

    There doesn't seem to have been a problem with the weather. The pilot had 8,000 hours of flight time logged. Even allowing for Adis Ababa not being the easiest of aerodromes to fly from given its altitude, this is a very strange accident indeed. Even though I'm no expert I can see it should not have happened.
    There are a lot of them flying out of Manchester, and no plans to ground them.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 28,855
    ‪Either Johnson or Gove did not know what they were voting for in 2016. There’s no way round that.‬
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 10,599
    ydoethur said:

    So is MV2 happening tomorrow or not?

    Who knows? Who even cares at this stage, given we already have a fair idea of the result?

    Every MP needs to go at the next election. Clean slate from the ground up.
    Not going to happen - and if it did, the learning on the job parliament would probably make this one look competent.

    The reality is that we have a divided country and a government without a majority. The competence, or lack of it, of individual MPs is a second order problem.
    Though I make an exception for the ERG.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 43,661

    ‪Either Johnson or Gove did not know what they were voting for in 2016. There’s no way round that.‬

    The quote from Gove is revealing

    “Everyone who believes in democracy should support it.”

    And the ERG oppose it...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    Scott_P said:

    Brexiteers have yet to face up to the obvious fact that there is no version of Brexit that can make it through the commons. There is no version of Brexit they can agree on themselves, let alone anyone else.

    It is a doomed project.

    Hi my name is Phil Hammond - you may remember me as the guy who stopped Brexit and ensured we doubled our annual contributions to the EU. Please vote Conservative.

    Now that’s a doomed project...
  • eekeek Posts: 3,169
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Well, the Chinese are clearly highly suspicious about this Ethiopian air disaster, or they are hitting the US over this trade war:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47519929

    I have to say though I think they're making the right call, whatever their reasons for it.

    Two planes have now crashed fairly soon after takeoff and the model supposedly has a new control mechasim. I think removing the planes from duty is unavoidable until the cause of the accidents is at least vaguely identified
    Agreed, particularly as the first one was a technical fault.

    Edit - a little research on CNN reveals this aircraft had flown just 1400 hours.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/investing/boeing-737-crash/index.html

    There doesn't seem to have been a problem with the weather. The pilot had 8,000 hours of flight time logged. Even allowing for Adis Ababa not being the easiest of aerodromes to fly from given its altitude, this is a very strange accident indeed. Even though I'm no expert I can see it should not have happened.
    There are a lot of them flying out of Manchester, and no plans to ground them.
    737 max 8? I doubt it based on who has received deliveries - the first were delivered in 2017 and Chinese /American Airlines seem to be getting most of them. The only airline that could have them and fly from Manchester is Norwegian and I can’t rememberr if they fly form Manchester
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 20,922
    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    Correct malc. We can see now that the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU despite her being an abject PM.

    Quite incredible.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 43,661
    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 28,855
    Scott_P said:
    That looks like billions which could have been spent on the NHS.

  • mattmatt Posts: 2,552
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Well, the Chinese are clearly highly suspicious about this Ethiopian air disaster, or they are hitting the US over this trade war:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47519929

    I have to say though I think they're making the right call, whatever their reasons for it.

    Two planes have now crashed fairly soon after takeoff and the model supposedly has a new control mechasim. I think removing the planes from duty is unavoidable until the cause of the accidents is at least vaguely identified
    Agreed, particularly as the first one was a technical fault.

    Edit - a little research on CNN reveals this aircraft had flown just 1400 hours.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/investing/boeing-737-crash/index.html

    There doesn't seem to have been a problem with the weather. The pilot had 8,000 hours of flight time logged. Even allowing for Adis Ababa not being the easiest of aerodromes to fly from given its altitude, this is a very strange accident indeed. Even though I'm no expert I can see it should not have happened.
    There are a lot of them flying out of Manchester, and no plans to ground them.
    737 max 8? I doubt it based on who has received deliveries - the first were delivered in 2017 and Chinese /American Airlines seem to be getting most of them. The only airline that could have them and fly from Manchester is Norwegian and I can’t rememberr if they fly form Manchester
    Icelandair.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    Hi I’m Amber Rudd - you may remember me as a member of the cabinet that failed to deliver Brexit and ensured we sent billions more to the EU as part of an article 50 extension. Please vote Conservative.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,875
    Apparently Mrs May is considering asking Parliament to approve a "proposal that Britain would accept", i.e. the WA minus the backstop, because that's "the only way to preserve party unity".

    Like everyone in politics I like party unity, but that would just be can-kicking and putting the party before the country. We all know that there is a majority for the WA minus the backstop and we all know it's not on offer. Neutrally offering a choice of indicative votes on options that the EU might accept (Norway, hard exit, referendum, Kyle deal of WA+referendum) is more promising because (a) it may show that there is a majority for something that can be accepted and (b) if it doesn't, her deal may look more like the only available option.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,291
    Mr P,

    "there is no version of Brexit that can make it through the commons."

    I thought that some time ago, but not for the reason you think. The MPs were always against Brexit and haven't changed their minds. Yet they voted for it out of fear.

    Fear of what the electorate would think if they were seen to deny them a view.

    So, they're looking for both a fig-leaf and a scapegoat. Who is wrong when the MPs no longer represent the voters on a major and far-reaching issue like this?

    Think about that for a moment.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434

    Apparently Mrs May is considering asking Parliament to approve a "proposal that Britain would accept", i.e. the WA minus the backstop, because that's "the only way to preserve party unity".

    Like everyone in politics I like party unity, but that would just be can-kicking and putting the party before the country. We all know that there is a majority for the WA minus the backstop and we all know it's not on offer. Neutrally offering a choice of indicative votes on options that the EU might accept (Norway, hard exit, referendum, Kyle deal of WA+referendum) is more promising because (a) it may show that there is a majority for something that can be accepted and (b) if it doesn't, her deal may look more like the only available option.

    Mrs May should turn up to the Commons and tell them that Cox brought several ideas, all of which were rejected by the EU who aren’t not negotiating in good faith so there is no point in an9ther vote as the deal isn’t changed.

    She’d at least be honest and probably gain some respect.

    Throw the EU under a bus is her last hope.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    Hi I’m Amber Rudd - you may remember me as a member of the cabinet that failed to deliver Brexit and ensured we sent billions more to the EU as part of an article 50 extension. Please vote Conservative.
    Mark Francois and David Davis are working 24/7 to keep the UK part of the EU
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 18,538
    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    They're the ones who had the decency to vote against her.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 18,538

    Apparently Mrs May is considering asking Parliament to approve a "proposal that Britain would accept", i.e. the WA minus the backstop, because that's "the only way to preserve party unity".

    Like everyone in politics I like party unity, but that would just be can-kicking and putting the party before the country. We all know that there is a majority for the WA minus the backstop and we all know it's not on offer. Neutrally offering a choice of indicative votes on options that the EU might accept (Norway, hard exit, referendum, Kyle deal of WA+referendum) is more promising because (a) it may show that there is a majority for something that can be accepted and (b) if it doesn't, her deal may look more like the only available option.

    Parliament had that vote last month already.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 591

    Apparently Mrs May is considering asking Parliament to approve a "proposal that Britain would accept", i.e. the WA minus the backstop, because that's "the only way to preserve party unity".

    Like everyone in politics I like party unity, but that would just be can-kicking and putting the party before the country. We all know that there is a majority for the WA minus the backstop and we all know it's not on offer. Neutrally offering a choice of indicative votes on options that the EU might accept (Norway, hard exit, referendum, Kyle deal of WA+referendum) is more promising because (a) it may show that there is a majority for something that can be accepted and (b) if it doesn't, her deal may look more like the only available option.

    Wasn’t that already what the Brady amendment did , so what’s the point . This looks like more can kicking . If May doesn’t put her deal to a vote tomorrow and allow the no deal and extension votes then the Tories will implode.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    edited March 11
    TheJezziah

    We get down to this Corbyn supporters suggesting he is a liar line from you a lot but it tends to involves assuming things either Corbyn or Corbyn supporters haven't actually said.

    Has it ever occurred to you that the series of assumptions you seem to make off just a few words aren't the holy truth and you are actually capable of making mistakes?

    For example for simple PR reasons can you understand why somebody could move the argument past whether the image was AS or not regardless of their thoughts on the matter?

    Now I don't know for sure this happened, but neither do you.

    This whole Corbyn supporters are calling him a liar meme is a bit boring because Corbyn supporters don't make the series of assumptions you do. People who think exactly like you probably are calling Corbyn a liar, but those people probably aren't Corbyn supporters.


    I'm sorry if you find it boring Jezziah, but it is true, when people are furiously defending Corbyn and saying he has done no wrong or that things in labour are just fine and it is all just attacks on Corbyn, I think it reasonable to conclude they are Corbyn supporters, especially when they have JC for PM and other such things in their Twitter handles.

    I'm sorry, but you just confuse me. It is possible to think the attacks on labour and Corbyn are overblown, out of proportion. But some people say it is all a smear. Corbyn says it is not just a smear. If that's not calling him a liar what is? Some claim the mural was not anti semitic or not obviously so. Corbyn had to say he didn't look at it properly so even if you or they dont think that, he clearly does.

    Its all very well people defending themselves with certain lines. But Corbyn cannot be defended with lines if he has contradicted those lines.

    Thst doesn't make every attack people make on him true. But it does make supporters of his, and they are supporters of his, who defend him for reasons that do not follow his words, calling him a liar. You don't like that, fine.

    It's the Brown/Duffy incident. Many people insist what she said was bigoted. Let's say that is correct. But Brown himself said it wasn't and he was sorry. So anyone decending him for speaking truth is calling him a liar.

    Should I believe Corbyn that he did not look at the moral properly? Or call him a liar, a liar who is pretending not to have looked at it, is lying about his regret, because what? He have in to the press?

    Corbyn might not be as bad as many think. He has the backing of millions. But to suggest people defending him are not supporters of his? Youe lost it.

    Dont want people who back him but contradict him.called out? Tell them to stop calling him a liar. I apparently have more respect for his honesty than you do.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    CD13 said:

    Mr P,

    "there is no version of Brexit that can make it through the commons."

    I thought that some time ago, but not for the reason you think. The MPs were always against Brexit and haven't changed their minds. Yet they voted for it out of fear.

    Fear of what the electorate would think if they were seen to deny them a view.

    So, they're looking for both a fig-leaf and a scapegoat. Who is wrong when the MPs no longer represent the voters on a major and far-reaching issue like this?

    Think about that for a moment.

    There are 250 or so MP's, (Remain and Leave) who are prepared to compromise to achieve Brexit, and 400 or so who are not.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    Sean_F said:

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    Hi I’m Amber Rudd - you may remember me as a member of the cabinet that failed to deliver Brexit and ensured we sent billions more to the EU as part of an article 50 extension. Please vote Conservative.
    Mark Francois and David Davis are working 24/7 to keep the UK part of the EU
    Meh - if you think such whataboutery will cut through in future elections then I have a bridge for sale.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 591
    edited March 11
    May will be gone by the end of the week . She’s now becoming completely detached from reality.

    She’ll resign and ask for an extension to allow a new leader time to reset the negotiations.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 50,861
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 10,928
    May should back Kyle after a no-deal defeat and go all in on winning a deal-remain vote.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 2,944
    There is No Way Out:

    1. May's deal - crap as it is - delivers Brexit as stipulated by the question on the ballot paper. That millions of people believe leaving the EU means not leaving the EU is a problem for keeping the political system functional even if MPs back her deal. Which they won't
    2. May could have taken her deal to the country. A snap general election where voting Conservative is voting to enact her deal. Perhaps she chose not to do so because of point 1 - either way its now too late for that option
    3. "Common Market 2.0" - the rebranded Norway+ - is still talked about, but as has been widely pointed out leaves us in a worse position than now and is only something you'd do to keep the people happy. See point 1
    4. We could rescind Article 50, but we know from Jo Cox how that will turn out
    5. We could leave with No Deal. The people in point 1 will be angry anyway when it turns out "living with the Blitz spirit" means them suffering and not the Other People they had in mind
    6. A confirmatory referendum on May's Deal/Norway+ isn't something I would be campaigning on. See point 4

    So here we are. It almost doesn't matter what the MPs do this week or what the EU27 do next week. Brexit has already happened. The societal schism is already here. The massive economic hit from business doing the least amount possible for fear of betting the wrong way is here. And afterwards?

    Up and down this country, in every Wetherspoon pub in every town, they will be holding meetings explaining to the Angry and the Dispossessed and the Stupid and the Racist how the politicians have failed them. How the global elite have stolen their future. How the foreigner is laughing at them IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. And the increasingly rapid switch into radical solutions - on both the left and right - will gather pace. And the "mainstream" parties will argue amongst themselves about whose fault this is and argue about solutions, all in a culture where no party wants to work with another party despite none of them having a clue what to do. And all the while, that Twat Corbyn remains at the head of my party insisting that True Socialism will be here tomorrow if only we remove the True Enemy of the Labour Party - the Party itself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 50,861
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    Hi I’m Amber Rudd - you may remember me as a member of the cabinet that failed to deliver Brexit and ensured we sent billions more to the EU as part of an article 50 extension. Please vote Conservative.
    Rudd supported the Brexit Deal unlike the ERG
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 2,944

    There is No Way Out:

    Happy Monday Everyone!!!!!!

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    That's all very well, and she is terrible, but if they had a way of getting something better through they'd have ditched her already.

    I'm not saying May should not be ditched, I just dont think it changes fundamental problems.

    I still think Corbyn might as well be given a chance to negotiate with the EU. Sure I doubt hed get anything either but might as well try and he cannot do worse.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 20,922
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
    Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    Hi I’m Amber Rudd - you may remember me as a member of the cabinet that failed to deliver Brexit and ensured we sent billions more to the EU as part of an article 50 extension. Please vote Conservative.
    Mark Francois and David Davis are working 24/7 to keep the UK part of the EU
    Meh - if you think such whataboutery will cut through in future elections then I have a bridge for sale.
    Nevertheless, it's important to put on the record that if we fail to leave the EU, the blame won't lie exclusively with Continuity Remain.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,579

    Apparently Mrs May is considering asking Parliament to approve a "proposal that Britain would accept", i.e. the WA minus the backstop, because that's "the only way to preserve party unity".

    Like everyone in politics I like party unity, but that would just be can-kicking and putting the party before the country. We all know that there is a majority for the WA minus the backstop and we all know it's not on offer. Neutrally offering a choice of indicative votes on options that the EU might accept (Norway, hard exit, referendum, Kyle deal of WA+referendum) is more promising because (a) it may show that there is a majority for something that can be accepted and (b) if it doesn't, her deal may look more like the only available option.

    That would not be consistent with the commitment that she gave to hold a fresh meaningful vote on the deal that she had negotiated with the EU. This would not be a vote on the deal.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    Scott_P said:

    Brexiteers have yet to face up to the obvious fact that there is no version of Brexit that can make it through the commons. There is no version of Brexit they can agree on themselves, let alone anyone else.

    It is a doomed project.

    Yes it is. If enough of them cared just about leaving to ensure it would happen but hundreds will not agree any deal because they seek and have always sought reversal, and hundreds more want perfection.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    Jonathan said:

    May should back Kyle after a no-deal defeat and go all in on winning a deal-remain vote.

    I get that they fear remain will win. I'm very certain it would. But the deal has no other chance, MV3 is a nonsense, what is her actual plan if not a public vote?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 10,599
    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    Correct malc. We can see now that the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU despite her being an abject PM.

    Quite incredible.
    Indeed.
    As a theory that's not credible.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,875
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    That's all very well, and she is terrible, but if they had a way of getting something better through they'd have ditched her already.

    I'm not saying May should not be ditched, I just dont think it changes fundamental problems.

    I still think Corbyn might as well be given a chance to negotiate with the EU. Sure I doubt hed get anything either but might as well try and he cannot do worse.
    I think he'd get a customs union plus regulatory alignment without much trouble, actually - they'd be so pleased to get a sensible offer that they'd take it. If he offered a referendum on that vs Remain it would work for the party too. That's pretty much what would be on offer if we had a snap election, and is probably his best shot at office, as there are plenty of people who think that sorting this out is really the top priority, whatever other doubts they may have.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    They're the ones who had the decency to vote against her.
    The ones furiously opposed to her only policy who backed her are the strange ones.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825

    447 hours 30-ish minutes. I presume May will ask people to back her deal now and to give her more time to secure changes to the deal at the EU summit.
    MPs are being taken for fools if they believe that.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,875

    Apparently Mrs May is considering asking Parliament to approve a "proposal that Britain would accept", i.e. the WA minus the backstop, because that's "the only way to preserve party unity".

    Like everyone in politics I like party unity, but that would just be can-kicking and putting the party before the country. We all know that there is a majority for the WA minus the backstop and we all know it's not on offer. Neutrally offering a choice of indicative votes on options that the EU might accept (Norway, hard exit, referendum, Kyle deal of WA+referendum) is more promising because (a) it may show that there is a majority for something that can be accepted and (b) if it doesn't, her deal may look more like the only available option.

    Parliament had that vote last month already.
    You think that will deter her?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 28,855

    There is No Way Out:

    1. May's deal - crap as it is - delivers Brexit as stipulated by the question on the ballot paper. That millions of people believe leaving the EU means not leaving the EU is a problem for keeping the political system functional even if MPs back her deal. Which they won't
    2. May could have taken her deal to the country. A snap general election where voting Conservative is voting to enact her deal. Perhaps she chose not to do so because of point 1 - either way its now too late for that option
    3. "Common Market 2.0" - the rebranded Norway+ - is still talked about, but as has been widely pointed out leaves us in a worse position than now and is only something you'd do to keep the people happy. See point 1
    4. We could rescind Article 50, but we know from Jo Cox how that will turn out
    5. We could leave with No Deal. The people in point 1 will be angry anyway when it turns out "living with the Blitz spirit" means them suffering and not the Other People they had in mind
    6. A confirmatory referendum on May's Deal/Norway+ isn't something I would be campaigning on. See point 4

    So here we are. It almost doesn't matter what the MPs do this week or what the EU27 do next week. Brexit has already happened. The societal schism is already here. The massive economic hit from business doing the least amount possible for fear of betting the wrong way is here. And afterwards?

    Up and down this country, in every Wetherspoon pub in every town, they will be holding meetings explaining to the Angry and the Dispossessed and the Stupid and the Racist how the politicians have failed them. How the global elite have stolen their future. How the foreigner is laughing at them IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. And the increasingly rapid switch into radical solutions - on both the left and right - will gather pace. And the "mainstream" parties will argue amongst themselves about whose fault this is and argue about solutions, all in a culture where no party wants to work with another party despite none of them having a clue what to do. And all the while, that Twat Corbyn remains at the head of my party insisting that True Socialism will be here tomorrow if only we remove the True Enemy of the Labour Party - the Party itself.

    Yep, fantasists, fools and fibbers have delivered an absolute shit-storm. And the good news is it’s only going to get worse.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 50,861
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
    Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
    May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    They're the ones who had the decency to vote against her.
    The ones furiously opposed to her only policy who backed her are the strange ones.
    What's strange is keeping someone in office, while denying that person any ability to act.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    That's all very well, and she is terrible, but if they had a way of getting something better through they'd have ditched her already.

    I'm not saying May should not be ditched, I just dont think it changes fundamental problems.

    I still think Corbyn might as well be given a chance to negotiate with the EU. Sure I doubt hed get anything either but might as well try and he cannot do worse.
    I think he'd get a customs union plus regulatory alignment without much trouble, actually - they'd be so pleased to get a sensible offer that they'd take it. If he offered a referendum on that vs Remain it would work for the party too. That's pretty much what would be on offer if we had a snap election, and is probably his best shot at office, as there are plenty of people who think that sorting this out is really the top priority, whatever other doubts they may have.
    He has a better chance of a parliamentary majority on Brexit right now too. He would be doing a better job than may right now.

    Because however much the jezziah likes to play the victim and I dont like Corbyn, I can give him a little credit where it is due.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073

    There is No Way Out:

    1. May's deal - crap as it is - delivers Brexit as stipulated by the question on the ballot paper. That millions of people believe leaving the EU means not leaving the EU is a problem for keeping the political system functional even if MPs back her deal. Which they won't
    2. May could have taken her deal to the country. A snap general election where voting Conservative is voting to enact her deal. Perhaps she chose not to do so because of point 1 - either way its now too late for that option
    3. "Common Market 2.0" - the rebranded Norway+ - is still talked about, but as has been widely pointed out leaves us in a worse position than now and is only something you'd do to keep the people happy. See point 1
    4. We could rescind Article 50, but we know from Jo Cox how that will turn out
    5. We could leave with No Deal. The people in point 1 will be angry anyway when it turns out "living with the Blitz spirit" means them suffering and not the Other People they had in mind
    6. A confirmatory referendum on May's Deal/Norway+ isn't something I would be campaigning on. See point 4

    So here we are. It almost doesn't matter what the MPs do this week or what the EU27 do next week. Brexit has already happened. The societal schism is already here. The massive economic hit from business doing the least amount possible for fear of betting the wrong way is here. And afterwards?

    Up and down this country, in every Wetherspoon pub in every town, they will be holding meetings explaining to the Angry and the Dispossessed and the Stupid and the Racist how the politicians have failed them. How the global elite have stolen their future. How the foreigner is laughing at them IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. And the increasingly rapid switch into radical solutions - on both the left and right - will gather pace. And the "mainstream" parties will argue amongst themselves about whose fault this is and argue about solutions, all in a culture where no party wants to work with another party despite none of them having a clue what to do. And all the while, that Twat Corbyn remains at the head of my party insisting that True Socialism will be here tomorrow if only we remove the True Enemy of the Labour Party - the Party itself.

    Apart from that, how are things? :wink:
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,875
    Passing glance at the US Democrat race:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

    On current form - and we're still nearly a year till the primaries - it's clearly Biden vs Sanders if Biden runs, with Warren and Harris still hanging in there in case they both implode. Everyone else is already looking like no-hopers. What isn't clear is what happens if Biden doesn't run.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    They're the ones who had the decency to vote against her.
    The ones furiously opposed to her only policy who backed her are the strange ones.
    What's strange is keeping someone in office, while denying that person any ability to act.
    Indeed.

    It's all just so futile. We all know the MV2 will be lost, and yet loads more time will be spent arguing this or thst option, no doubt an extension to ease the path to remain. It's such a waste of time.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    That's all very well, and she is terrible, but if they had a way of getting something better through they'd have ditched her already.

    I'm not saying May should not be ditched, I just dont think it changes fundamental problems.

    I still think Corbyn might as well be given a chance to negotiate with the EU. Sure I doubt hed get anything either but might as well try and he cannot do worse.
    I think he'd get a customs union plus regulatory alignment without much trouble, actually - they'd be so pleased to get a sensible offer that they'd take it. If he offered a referendum on that vs Remain it would work for the party too. That's pretty much what would be on offer if we had a snap election, and is probably his best shot at office, as there are plenty of people who think that sorting this out is really the top priority, whatever other doubts they may have.
    He has a better chance of a parliamentary majority on Brexit right now too. He would be doing a better job than may right now.

    Because however much the jezziah likes to play the victim and I dont like Corbyn, I can give him a little credit where it is due.
    I don't think there would be any prospect of Corbyn's proposed deal getting through on current arithmetic, and it's a worse proposal than May's.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 1,874

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    That's all very well, and she is terrible, but if they had a way of getting something better through they'd have ditched her already.

    I'm not saying May should not be ditched, I just dont think it changes fundamental problems.

    I still think Corbyn might as well be given a chance to negotiate with the EU. Sure I doubt hed get anything either but might as well try and he cannot do worse.
    I think he'd get a customs union plus regulatory alignment without much trouble, actually - they'd be so pleased to get a sensible offer that they'd take it. If he offered a referendum on that vs Remain it would work for the party too. That's pretty much what would be on offer if we had a snap election, and is probably his best shot at office, as there are plenty of people who think that sorting this out is really the top priority, whatever other doubts they may have.
    I think there are a huge number of people who think this is the most important issue that has been faced by this country since the end of the second world war, but while there are many many like me that would prefer the customs union, we are not gullible enough to vote for comrade Corbyn.

    Brexit is bad enough, but to compound it by putting Mr Thicky in charge would be enough to consign our great nation to a basket case of 1970s proportions for generations to come. So no, however attractive Labour's EU policy is, it is not enough to persuade us to put the anti-Semite in Chief into No 10. Someone more moderate would be a completely different scenario .
  • kjhkjh Posts: 533
    BBC showed a flowchart of the votes for the next few days. Assume they vote against May's deal, then against no deal and then against an extension we leave with no deal. That means they have voted for leaving with no deal and not leaving with no deal and no deal takes precedence over not leaving with no deal. The only logic I can see in that contradiction is they have changed their mind in 24 hours. This is all nonsense. You can equally argue that they decided not to leave with no deal but want to leave with a deal (not May's deal) without an extension - an equally (almost) impossible position.

    Don't think I have ever written a statement with so many references to 'not' and 'no'.

    All bonkers.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,096
    nico67 said:

    May will be gone by the end of the week . She’s now becoming completely detached from reality.

    She’ll resign and ask for an extension to allow a new leader time to reset the negotiations.

    That’s probably the best solution for her to resign call a leadership contest and ageee temporary extension for it to happen . Then a new leave backing leaver can take over and if eu will not budge go to the country a secure a mandate for hard brexit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    That's all very well, and she is terrible, but if they had a way of getting something better through they'd have ditched her already.

    I'm not saying May should not be ditched, I just dont think it changes fundamental problems.

    I still think Corbyn might as well be given a chance to negotiate with the EU. Sure I doubt hed get anything either but might as well try and he cannot do worse.
    I think he'd get a customs union plus regulatory alignment without much trouble, actually - they'd be so pleased to get a sensible offer that they'd take it. If he offered a referendum on that vs Remain it would work for the party too. That's pretty much what would be on offer if we had a snap election, and is probably his best shot at office, as there are plenty of people who think that sorting this out is really the top priority, whatever other doubts they may have.
    He has a better chance of a parliamentary majority on Brexit right now too. He would be doing a better job than may right now.

    Because however much the jezziah likes to play the victim and I dont like Corbyn, I can give him a little credit where it is due.
    I don't think there would be any prospect of Corbyn's proposed deal getting through on current arithmetic, and it's a worse proposal than May's.
    Better chance doesn't mean it would go through. I think it would get closer. And being worse is irrelevant, its whether mps might like it more.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073
    edited March 11
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
    Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
    May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all
    Don't be silly, there were always plenty of other deals available from the EU (e.g see Nick Palmer's post upthread on what Corbyn could do) but myopic May does not have the wit or the vision to consider them. She set out her own red lines without serious debate or consultation then arbitarily ditched some whilst treating others as sacrosanct.

    That is why she will go down as one of the poorest PMs ever.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,291
    Dr P,

    "I think he'd get a customs union plus regulatory alignment without much trouble,"

    I'm sure he could, as part of Remaining. Of course, the EU would let us stay, somebody needs to fill the budget gap. Next door's cat could get that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    kjh said:

    BBC showed a flowchart of the votes for the next few days. Assume they vote against May's deal, then against no deal and then against an extension we leave with no deal. That means they have voted for leaving with no deal and not leaving with no deal and no deal takes precedence over not leaving with no deal. The only logic I can see in that contradiction is they have changed their mind in 24 hours. This is all nonsense. You can equally argue that they decided not to leave with no deal but want to leave with a deal (not May's deal) without an extension - an equally (almost) impossible position.

    Don't think I have ever written a statement with so many references to 'not' and 'no'.

    All bonkers.

    There is much in this that is bonkers but leaving with no deal even if they say they dont want to is not one of them because that's what the law says and they need to take more than just saying they dont want no deal to change that.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 1,874
    kjh said:

    BBC showed a flowchart of the votes for the next few days. Assume they vote against May's deal, then against no deal and then against an extension we leave with no deal. That means they have voted for leaving with no deal and not leaving with no deal and no deal takes precedence over not leaving with no deal. The only logic I can see in that contradiction is they have changed their mind in 24 hours. This is all nonsense. You can equally argue that they decided not to leave with no deal but want to leave with a deal (not May's deal) without an extension - an equally (almost) impossible position.

    Don't think I have ever written a statement with so many references to 'not' and 'no'.

    All bonkers.

    Brexit has been a bonkers concept form the outset.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073
    edited March 11
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    That's all very well, and she is terrible, but if they had a way of getting something better through they'd have ditched her already.

    I'm not saying May should not be ditched, I just dont think it changes fundamental problems.

    I still think Corbyn might as well be given a chance to negotiate with the EU. Sure I doubt hed get anything either but might as well try and he cannot do worse.
    I think he'd get a customs union plus regulatory alignment without much trouble, actually - they'd be so pleased to get a sensible offer that they'd take it. If he offered a referendum on that vs Remain it would work for the party too. That's pretty much what would be on offer if we had a snap election, and is probably his best shot at office, as there are plenty of people who think that sorting this out is really the top priority, whatever other doubts they may have.
    He has a better chance of a parliamentary majority on Brexit right now too. He would be doing a better job than may right now.

    Because however much the jezziah likes to play the victim and I dont like Corbyn, I can give him a little credit where it is due.
    I don't think there would be any prospect of Corbyn's proposed deal getting through on current arithmetic, and it's a worse proposal than May's.
    Better chance doesn't mean it would go through. I think it would get closer. And being worse is irrelevant, its whether mps might like it more.
    ...being worse is irrelevant, ...and a matter of opinion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 10,599

    Scott_P said:
    That looks like billions which could have been spent on the NHS.

    The tax loss equates to somewhere around 85% of our net annual contribution to the EU.

    So in that respect, you could say that the EU might be well on the way to making good the deficit to the their budget which would result from our leaving.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 6,545
    edited March 11
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    the remainer Cons kept her as PM so they could stay in the EU

    Why did the Brexiteer Cons keep her as PM then...?
    They're the ones who had the decency to vote against her.
    The ones furiously opposed to her only policy who backed her are the strange ones.
    What's strange is keeping someone in office, while denying that person any ability to act.
    If we didn't have excessively partisan politics then May's government would have lost a vote of confidence in the House, but if we didn't have excessively partisan politics May's Deal might well have passed the Commons with substantial support from the Labour benches and, if we didn't have excessively partisan politics then a cross-party committee would have been formed to negotiate a compromise Brexit which would have easily passed the Commons - and the issue of whether May's government had the confidence of the House would not arise.

    But I can understand why millions of voters will vote Blue to stop the Reds, or Red to stop the Blues.

    What a mess.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,804

    kjh said:

    BBC showed a flowchart of the votes for the next few days. Assume they vote against May's deal, then against no deal and then against an extension we leave with no deal. That means they have voted for leaving with no deal and not leaving with no deal and no deal takes precedence over not leaving with no deal. The only logic I can see in that contradiction is they have changed their mind in 24 hours. This is all nonsense. You can equally argue that they decided not to leave with no deal but want to leave with a deal (not May's deal) without an extension - an equally (almost) impossible position.

    Don't think I have ever written a statement with so many references to 'not' and 'no'.

    All bonkers.

    Brexit has been a bonkers concept form the outset.
    Remainer implementation of Brexit has been a bonkers concept form the outset.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 1,874
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    That looks like billions which could have been spent on the NHS.

    The tax loss equates to somewhere around 85% of our net annual contribution to the EU.

    So in that respect, you could say that the EU might be well on the way to making good the deficit to the their budget which would result from our leaving.
    The tax loss from corporate brain drain is likely to be considerable. I am sure zealots will say this is "project fear", but there will come a point when they have to lift their befuddled little heads form their favoured spot in the sand
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 10,599

    Passing glance at the US Democrat race:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

    On current form - and we're still nearly a year till the primaries - it's clearly Biden vs Sanders if Biden runs, with Warren and Harris still hanging in there in case they both implode. Everyone else is already looking like no-hopers. What isn't clear is what happens if Biden doesn't run.

    Nothing is clear at all.
    O'Rourke also has yet to declare, and although I remain sceptical about his chances, it's entirely possible that his candidacy could take off. And the present Biden/Sanders lead is far from reliable at this stage.
    Until the campaign hots up, it's impossible to know whether that polling lead is largely as a result of name recognition, or representative of committed voters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 50,861

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
    Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
    May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all
    Don't be silly, there were always plenty of other deals available from the EU (e.g see Nick Palmer's post upthread on what Corbyn could do) but myopic May does not have the wit or the vision to consider them. She set out her own red lines without serious debate or consultation then arbitarily ditched some whilst treating others as sacrosanct.

    That is why she will go down as one of the poorest PMs ever.
    Other Deals like Norway Plus with free movement or permanent Customs Union. May got a Deal that ends free movement, leaves the Single Market and the Customs Union once a trade deal agreed
This discussion has been closed.