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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year on since Corbyn’s anti-semitic mural row and the issue

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  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393

    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    ‘I’ve not looked, but..’
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,122

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    I am glad you mentioned this. I saw his response and posted this.

    I find your response extraordinary. How can any reasonably educated person not understand the associations between anti-capitalist tropes and anti-Jewish ones and how they very often borrow from and meld into each other? This is standard stuff that has been around from the 19th century and has been used by all sorts of illiberal groups. You’d need to be blind to or ignorant of pretty much all 20th century history not to understand the references or the subliminal messages.

    What was anti-capitalist about the Howard poster? It was exclusively focused on an individual making him look sinister and giving him a fob watch - in 2005 for God’s sake!

    All the more curious for such a long time and apparently energetic anti-racist campaigner as Corbyn not to be aware. Odd really because self-proclaimed anti-racists are usually very quick to pounce on any unfortunate word or image by others and yet well-known and well-used anti-semitic tropes pass them by. Most curious.

    On topic, the cartoon is good. The reason Labour have not closed this issue down is because, at heart, the leadership really doesn’t care.
  • sealo0sealo0 Posts: 38
    ONS have just said that they have added Popcorn to the basket of items they use to calculate inflation.

    I wonder why!!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 26,789

    MaxPB said:

    Hold on, that stat doesn't pass the smell test at all. 1% of UK tax revenue linked to 10% of banking assets? Are we sure it isn't 1% of banking sector tax revenue, which makes a lot more sense.

    Yes, it sounds like nonsense.
    Well the logic of it is that 100% of UK banking assets generate 10% of tax revenue which is plainly ridiculous. The whole financial sector generates roughly 10% of tax revenue, approximately £70bn a year: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38218662

    Unless you work on the basis that the whole revenue of the sector is generated by bank assets (which is obviously absurd) the 1% is plainly wrong.
  • This is real and not a parody.

    Flat-Earther Finally Explains Why Nobody Has Fallen Off The Edge

    https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/flatearther-finally-explains-why-nobody-has-fallen-off-the-edge/
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 12,995
    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    (snipped for length)The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.
    I've seen some pictures from the Nazi era without great interest, and don't recall anything in particular about them except that they were hysterically anti-Jewish. I'm not particularly defending the mural (I don't like crude satire, full stop) - my point is that glancing at it didn't make me think "here's an anti-Jewish mural" but rather "here's a mural about conspiracies and capitalists". I wasn't studying noses in the picture and wouldn't think of doing so unless asked. Richard and Sean disagree, as they're entitled to, but we all see things with different backgrounds.

    Just to be clear - if I was religious at all I'd prefer to be Jewish than anything else - I like the culture and admire the behaviour that it encourages. Moreover, I think that Israel has a right to exist without threat and to defend itself by reasonable means, so you can call me a Zionist (though I don't think that wishing it was a secular state makes anyone anti-semitic, any more than eye-rolling about the Iranian religious state makes one anti-Moslem).

    Being hostile to Jewish people seems to me not just horrible but ridiculous, like being against people whose names start with W. For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people. They simply have different opinions about Israel and Palestine - which is IMO a separate issue.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 19,805
    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    Stats on poverty are pretty depressing. Not that it would touch you (or indeed most anyone on PB) but people are getting (relatively - and by that I think the bar is around £12k) poorer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 26,789

    This is real and not a parody.

    Flat-Earther Finally Explains Why Nobody Has Fallen Off The Edge

    https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/flatearther-finally-explains-why-nobody-has-fallen-off-the-edge/

    #DespiteBrexit.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,070
    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    I was thinking much the same when I read a review of William Keegan's autobiography which details all the economic "disasters" the country has suffered since the 1960's, yet GDP per head is about 150% higher than it was in the year that I was born.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393

    MaxPB said:

    Hold on, that stat doesn't pass the smell test at all. 1% of UK tax revenue linked to 10% of banking assets? Are we sure it isn't 1% of banking sector tax revenue, which makes a lot more sense.

    Yes, it sounds like nonsense.

    I suspect it’s a Remainery journalist adding up raw figures at angry speed, but without proper knowledge, so as to reach a desired conclusion.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 2,475
    This is the latest ruse from no 10.

    Add some unicorns to the vote call it provisional . If it passes then the no deal and extension votes get pulled because May can say they passed the vote .

    This means no deal is still on the table and the whole thing goes to the last few days before exit .

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,752

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.
    Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 8,033

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
    Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
    May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all
    Don't be silly, there were always plenty of other deals available from the EU (e.g see Nick Palmer's post upthread on what Corbyn could do) but myopic May does not have the wit or the vision to consider them. She set out her own red lines without serious debate or consultation then arbitarily ditched some whilst treating others as sacrosanct.

    That is why she will go down as one of the poorest PMs ever.
    Do these plentiful 'other deals' available from the EU include the backstop and the non-negotiable Withdrawal Agreement? And when exactly could they have been agreed, given that the EU has stubbornly refused to negotiate the final status until after we leave?
    There are many aspects of the Brexit clusterfuck to find annoying, but not the least of them is the failure of media interviewers to stop the nonsense from people like H. Benn MP about a "blind" Brexit, when the two-stage negotiation framework of a Withdrawal Agreement followed by future trade negotiations after Brexit is mandated by Article 50 and insisted on by the EU. It wasn't the PM's choice.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,122

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    Corbyn is supposed to have fought racism (in all its forms) all his life. You would have thought that in all those decades he would have become something of an expert on racism and its associated forms, memes, symbols, metaphors etc etc.

    But no.

    Apparently not.
    I have asked this several times but have never received a substantive answer. What exactly has Corbyn’s life-long work against racism consisted of? What specifically? Campaigns run? Legislation promoted? What exactly?
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    Stats on poverty are pretty depressing. Not that it would touch you (or indeed most anyone on PB) but people are getting (relatively - and by that I think the bar is around £12k) poorer.
    I said our economy is doing “ok” - which it is. Certainly compared to some other European nations, let alone the real basket cases elsewhere. Could we do more and better? Do we have major problems? My god, yes. But Brexit is not turning us into a Venezuelan dystopia. Corbyn’s Labour will do that.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 19,805

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
    Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
    May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all
    Don't be silly, there were always plenty of other deals available from the EU (e.g see Nick Palmer's post upthread on what Corbyn could do) but myopic May does not have the wit or the vision to consider them. She set out her own red lines without serious debate or consultation then arbitarily ditched some whilst treating others as sacrosanct.

    That is why she will go down as one of the poorest PMs ever.
    Do these plentiful 'other deals' available from the EU include the backstop and the non-negotiable Withdrawal Agreement? And when exactly could they have been agreed, given that the EU has stubbornly refused to negotiate the final status until after we leave?
    There are many aspects of the Brexit clusterfuck to find annoying, but not the least of them is the failure of media interviewers to stop the nonsense from people like H. Benn MP about a "blind" Brexit, when the two-stage negotiation framework of a Withdrawal Agreement followed by future trade negotiations after Brexit is mandated by Article 50 and insisted on by the EU. It wasn't the PM's choice.
    More irritating is of course the conscious elision of the WA with the FTA. It is what is causing 78.4% of the problems.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 12,803

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.
    Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.
    I very much doubt that the membership will be asked, and I'm coming round to the view that nor will the backbenchers. The men (and now women) in grey suits might come up with a Howard-style coronation.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 6,240
    Cyclefree said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    I am glad you mentioned this. I saw his response and posted this.

    I find your response extraordinary. How can any reasonably educated person not understand the associations between anti-capitalist tropes and anti-Jewish ones and how they very often borrow from and meld into each other? This is standard stuff that has been around from the 19th century and has been used by all sorts of illiberal groups. You’d need to be blind to or ignorant of pretty much all 20th century history not to understand the references or the subliminal messages.

    What was anti-capitalist about the Howard poster? It was exclusively focused on an individual making him look sinister and giving him a fob watch - in 2005 for God’s sake!

    All the more curious for such a long time and apparently energetic anti-racist campaigner as Corbyn not to be aware. Odd really because self-proclaimed anti-racists are usually very quick to pounce on any unfortunate word or image by others and yet well-known and well-used anti-semitic tropes pass them by. Most curious.

    On topic, the cartoon is good. The reason Labour have not closed this issue down is because, at heart, the leadership really doesn’t care.
    +1
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 23,371
    edited March 11

    ...
    Being hostile to Jewish people seems to me not just horrible but ridiculous, like being against people whose names start with W. For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people. They simply have different opinions about Israel and Palestine - which is IMO a separate issue.

    Again I don't want to lay into you personally, but that's another revealing comment. You've put your finger on the other reason why anti-semitism is so rife in the Labour Party now. As well as the Wicked Capitalists = Jews factor, you've got the 'we on the left are by definition morally superior and against all forms of racism so therefore we cannot possibly be anti-semitic' factor, which your comment illustrates nicely

    In other words, I'm quite sure that Corbyn sincerely thinks that he has been 'fighting anti-semitism all his life'. I'm sure that in theory he has been, in the sense of saying things like 'I abhor all forms of racism'. There's scant evidence of him actually having done anything to back this up, though, and plenty of evidence of his actual anti-semitism. His protestations are no different to those of apartheid-era white South Africans who used to tell everyone that they weren't racists. No doubt they too were being sincere.

    Meanwhile Jewish MPs have been hounded out of the party, and many Jewish people in the UK are making serious plans to leave the country if Corbyn becomes PM.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,122

    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 25,448

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.
    Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.
    I very much doubt that the membership will be asked, and I'm coming round to the view that nor will the backbenchers. The men (and now women) in grey suits might come up with a Howard-style coronation.
    The membership will go ballistic if that happens surely?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 59

    If MPs were more properly answerable to their constituents rather than to party managers then we would have a much better functioning political system across the board.

    This is why we should have AV for MP elections. It breaks party control over who gets to stand as MP.

    (Surely it’s time we had a good voting systems argument again? Much more entertaining that arguing over Brexit.)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 23,371

    There are many aspects of the Brexit clusterfuck to find annoying, but not the least of them is the failure of media interviewers to stop the nonsense from people like H. Benn MP about a "blind" Brexit, when the two-stage negotiation framework of a Withdrawal Agreement followed by future trade negotiations after Brexit is mandated by Article 50 and insisted on by the EU. It wasn't the PM's choice.

    Indeed so.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 3,358

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.
    Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.
    I very much doubt that the membership will be asked, and I'm coming round to the view that nor will the backbenchers. The men (and now women) in grey suits might come up with a Howard-style coronation.
    I don't think the men in grey suits have enough power for that at the moment
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 8,033
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

    That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

    ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
    May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
    Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
    May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all
    Don't be silly, there were always plenty of other deals available from the EU (e.g see Nick Palmer's post upthread on what Corbyn could do) but myopic May does not have the wit or the vision to consider them. She set out her own red lines without serious debate or consultation then arbitarily ditched some whilst treating others as sacrosanct.

    That is why she will go down as one of the poorest PMs ever.
    Do these plentiful 'other deals' available from the EU include the backstop and the non-negotiable Withdrawal Agreement? And when exactly could they have been agreed, given that the EU has stubbornly refused to negotiate the final status until after we leave?
    There are many aspects of the Brexit clusterfuck to find annoying, but not the least of them is the failure of media interviewers to stop the nonsense from people like H. Benn MP about a "blind" Brexit, when the two-stage negotiation framework of a Withdrawal Agreement followed by future trade negotiations after Brexit is mandated by Article 50 and insisted on by the EU. It wasn't the PM's choice.
    More irritating is of course the conscious elision of the WA with the FTA. It is what is causing 78.4% of the problems.
    Yes, certainly, and it shouldn't require a degree in Astrophysics to see the difference and I don't know why media interviewers allow people to get away with it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 19,805
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    Stats on poverty are pretty depressing. Not that it would touch you (or indeed most anyone on PB) but people are getting (relatively - and by that I think the bar is around £12k) poorer.
    I said our economy is doing “ok” - which it is. Certainly compared to some other European nations, let alone the real basket cases elsewhere. Could we do more and better? Do we have major problems? My god, yes. But Brexit is not turning us into a Venezuelan dystopia. Corbyn’s Labour will do that.

    Who cares about "compared to some other European nations"? The point is, poverty is increasing in the UK and I'm sure that in our high-falutin' discussions about Brexit, we miss the fact that some element of the Leave vote was down to people who had nothing to lose and whose situation was and is worsening so actually for them we're not doing OK.

    Signed TOPPING the SOCIALIST
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 12,803

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.
    Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.
    I very much doubt that the membership will be asked, and I'm coming round to the view that nor will the backbenchers. The men (and now women) in grey suits might come up with a Howard-style coronation.
    The membership will go ballistic if that happens surely?
    Who cares if the membership goes ballistic?

    If Theresa May is replaced as PM in the middle of Brexit then there simply won't be time to spend weeks messing around with elections -- or at least, that will be the excuse.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,312

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    Corbyn is supposed to have fought racism (in all its forms) all his life. You would have thought that in all those decades he would have become something of an expert on racism and its associated forms, memes, symbols, metaphors etc etc.

    But no.

    Apparently not.
    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.



    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 6,293
    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    There are otters in every county now? That is good news.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 3,358

    This is real and not a parody.

    Flat-Earther Finally Explains Why Nobody Has Fallen Off The Edge

    https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/flatearther-finally-explains-why-nobody-has-fallen-off-the-edge/

    It's real but the headline is disingenuous. The ice wall thing has been the standard flat-Earther position for ages.

    Flat Earth is stupid enough without needing to misrepresent them.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germanyt Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 31,281

    ...
    Being hostile to Jewish people seems to me not just horrible but ridiculous, like being against people whose names start with W. For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people. They simply have different opinions about Israel and Palestine - which is IMO a separate issue.

    Again I don't want to lay into you personally, but that's another revealing comment. You've put your finger on the other reason why anti-semitism is so rife in the Labour Party now. As well as the Wicked Capitalists = Jews factor, you've got the 'we on the left are by definition morally superior and against all forms of racism so therefore we cannot possibly be anti-semitic' factor, which your comment illustrates nicely

    In other words, I'm quite sure that Corbyn sincerely thinks that he has been 'fighting anti-semitism all his life'. I'm sure that in theory he has been, in the sense of saying things like 'I abhor all forms of racism'. There's scant evidence of him actually having done anything to back this up, though, and plenty of evidence of his actual anti-semitism. His protestations are no different to those of apartheid-era white South Africans who used to tell everyone that they weren't racists. No doubt they too were being sincere.

    Meanwhile Jewish MPs have been hounded out of the party, and many Jewish people in the UK are making serious plans to leave the country if Corbyn becomes PM.

    Perfectly put.

    Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    Corbyn is supposed to have fought racism (in all its forms) all his life. You would have thought that in all those decades he would have become something of an expert on racism and its associated forms, memes, symbols, metaphors etc etc.

    But no.

    Apparently not.
    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.



    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?
    Astute and true. I have thought the same.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 31,281
    Given that Theresa May is so relaxed about misleading the House of Commons and lying to the British people, can anyone explain why the EU should take her word on anything? With everything she says and does she reinforces the need for a backstop.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,070
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 23,371

    Given that Theresa May is so relaxed about misleading the House of Commons and lying to the British people, can anyone explain why the EU should take her word on anything? With everything she says and does she reinforces the need for a backstop.

    That is unfair on her. The problem hasn't been dishonesty, it has been that she can't deliver, thanks to the parliamentary arithmetic and the political games being played by various groups of MPs.

    Of course, from the EU's point of view that's an even stronger argument for the backstop, albeit counter-productive if it leads to no deal and no backstop..
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393
    Scott_P said:
    “Very clear Theresa May hasn’t decided what to do yet” would make a fine epitaph for Brexit, 2016-2019, RIP.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 12,803
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:



    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
    Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 6,240
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germanyt Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
    Spot on, SeanT.

    As Mike indicated, the cartoon appeared on the back page of this week's Jewish Chronicle. It stood above Stephen Pollard's editorial, which was headlined 'Wilful Blindness'.

    You and Stephen singing from the same hymn sheet, Sean? Oi gevault!

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 15,741
    Scott_P said:
    "Nothing to suggest" she'll resign? We can assume she's writing her resignation speech right now then... :D
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:



    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
    Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.
    Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,122

    ...
    For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people.

    Again I don't want to lay into you personally, but that's another revealing comment. You've put your finger on the other reason why anti-semitism is so rife in the Labour Party now. As well as the Wicked Capitalists = Jews factor, you've got the 'we on the left are by definition morally superior and against all forms of racism so therefore we cannot possibly be anti-semitic' factor, which your comment illustrates nicely

    In other words, I'm quite sure that Corbyn sincerely thinks that he has been 'fighting anti-semitism all his life'. I'm sure that in theory he has been, in the sense of saying things like 'I abhor all forms of racism'. There's scant evidence of him actually having done anything to back this up, though, and plenty of evidence of his actual anti-semitism. His protestations are no different to those of apartheid-era white South Africans who used to tell everyone that they weren't racists. No doubt they too were being sincere.

    Meanwhile Jewish MPs have been hounded out of the party, and many Jewish people in the UK are making serious plans to leave the country if Corbyn becomes PM.

    Perfectly put.

    Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

    What was revealing about the story in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the leadership interfering in disciplinary cases was Milne intervening in relation to one case sayong that Corbyn was particularly interested. And the case in which he was interested? That of Glyn Secker, being investigated for particiapting in a Holocaust-denial discussion forum - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-03-10/news/seamus-milne-and-corbyn-aide-blocked-anti-semitism-suspensions-f7c3zjc0j.

    Even if one were to accept - at a push - that some pro-Palestinians might be excused their anti-semitism (and, to be clear, I don’t) there can be no possible excuse for Holocaust denial and, yet, Corbyn was reputedly interested in protecting such a person. People who indulge in, excuse, justify or turn a blind eye to Holocaust denial are utterly beyond the pale. In my book, anyway.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,122
    edited March 11
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:



    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
    Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.
    Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.
    How do we know that this is true? And even if they did why is it his badge of honour? He wasn’t even born then.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 698
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:



    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
    Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.
    Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.
    Does he say on which side?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 31,281

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and backgrounddifferently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    Corbyn is supposed to have foughtmetaphors etc etc.

    But no.

    Apparently not.
    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.



    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

    You are absolutely correct. The left Corbyn is a part of never questions itself. It is impossible for it to be racist because it is anti-racist. And that’s that. It gets to decide. There is no uncertainty. No questioning. No self-doubt. No reflection. It is moral absolutism. And it is immoral, wrong and genuinely frightening. Corbyn never has the long black nights of the soul that all people in positions of power must have. Never trust a politician who never has a bad night’s sleep.

  • oldpoliticsoldpolitics Posts: 408
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:



    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
    Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.
    Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.
    How do we know that this is true? And even if they did why is it his badge of honour? He wasn’t even born then.
    It may not be. It used to be "my parents' generation" then became his parents. More's the point, Piers Corbyn's parents were there too.
  • Cyclefree said:


    Perfectly put.

    Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

    What was revealing about the story in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the leadership interfering in disciplinary cases was Milne intervening in relation to one case sayong that Corbyn was particularly interested. And the case in which he was interested? That of Glyn Secker, being investigated for particiapting in a Holocaust-denial discussion forum - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-03-10/news/seamus-milne-and-corbyn-aide-blocked-anti-semitism-suspensions-f7c3zjc0j.

    Even if one were to accept - at a push - that some pro-Palestinians might be excused their anti-semitism (and, to be clear, I don’t) there can be no possible excuse for Holocaust denial and, yet, Corbyn was reputedly interested in protecting such a person. People who indulge in, excuse, justify or turn a blind eye to Holocaust denial are utterly beyond the pale. In my book, anyway.

    Of course there is no excuse for holocaust denial however being Pro-Palestinian does not make a person an anti-semite no more than being pro Israeli makes someone and Islamophobe.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 25,448
    Fenman said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:



    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.
    Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

    It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.
    Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.
    Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.
    Does he say on which side?
    As I said earlier. It beggars belief that someone who claims to have fought racism all his life and indeed implies it is virtually a full time occupation, still has not managed to understand the basic tropes of racism.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,808
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hold on, that stat doesn't pass the smell test at all. 1% of UK tax revenue linked to 10% of banking assets? Are we sure it isn't 1% of banking sector tax revenue, which makes a lot more sense.

    Yes, it sounds like nonsense.
    Well the logic of it is that 100% of UK banking assets generate 10% of tax revenue which is plainly ridiculous. The whole financial sector generates roughly 10% of tax revenue, approximately £70bn a year: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38218662

    Unless you work on the basis that the whole revenue of the sector is generated by bank assets (which is obviously absurd) the 1% is plainly wrong.
    Yes it's completely stupid, especially given that employment in the sector accounts for the majority of tax take and the total number of jobs has gone up since the vote. In general I think sector tax receipts are up in line with the rest of the economy. The idea that assets themselves will generate that level of taxable income is basically stupid.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 3,358
    Sean_F said:
    Some of those who want the deal to pass may be motivated by thinking that'd be most politically advantageous to them, rather than thinking it'd be best for the country. I imagine a fair few ERGers fit into this category.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,487
    What the Tories need is a grammar school boy - step forward Chris Grayling
  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,793

    What the Tories need is a grammar school boy - step forward Chris Grayling

    Cometh the hour....!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 61,400
    Scott_P said:
    Well they are going to end up with No Deal or no Brexit/BINO, more likely the latter, unless they make their mind up
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,312

    Cyclefree said:


    Perfectly put.

    Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

    What was revealing about the story in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the leadership interfering in disciplinary cases was Milne intervening in relation to one case sayong that Corbyn was particularly interested. And the case in which he was interested? That of Glyn Secker, being investigated for particiapting in a Holocaust-denial discussion forum - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-03-10/news/seamus-milne-and-corbyn-aide-blocked-anti-semitism-suspensions-f7c3zjc0j.

    Even if one were to accept - at a push - that some pro-Palestinians might be excused their anti-semitism (and, to be clear, I don’t) there can be no possible excuse for Holocaust denial and, yet, Corbyn was reputedly interested in protecting such a person. People who indulge in, excuse, justify or turn a blind eye to Holocaust denial are utterly beyond the pale. In my book, anyway.
    Of course there is no excuse for holocaust denial however being Pro-Palestinian does not make a person an anti-semite no more than being pro Israeli makes someone and Islamophobe.
    Totally agree: and some people undoubtedly use cries of anti-Semitism to wrongly call down reasonable anti-Israeli (or anti-Zionist) comments.

    But on the other hand: I have little doubt that others hide their anti-Semitism behind a veneer of 'respectable' anti-Zionism.

    It's all an almighty mess. But looking at Corbyn's actions and comments, I find it hard to argue that he's very much in the latter camp.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 50,101
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 30,190
    Sean_F said:
    Theresa May expects the facts to speak for themselves. In politics, they don’t.

    If Brexit fails the biggest reason will be the total absence of Theresa’s political skills, not her analytical skills or work ethic.

    I think a Blair or even a Cameron could have got this Deal passed (without any change to the text whatsoever) simply by a much better political operation, which is entirely absent in her nature.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,122

    Cyclefree said:


    Perfectly put.

    Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

    What was revealing about the story in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the leadership interfering in disciplinary cases was Milne intervening in relation to one case sayong that Corbyn was particularly interested. And the case in which he was interested? That of Glyn Secker, being investigated for particiapting in a Holocaust-denial discussion forum - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-03-10/news/seamus-milne-and-corbyn-aide-blocked-anti-semitism-suspensions-f7c3zjc0j.

    Even if one were to accept - at a push - that some pro-Palestinians might be excused their anti-semitism (and, to be clear, I don’t) there can be no possible excuse for Holocaust denial and, yet, Corbyn was reputedly interested in protecting such a person. People who indulge in, excuse, justify or turn a blind eye to Holocaust denial are utterly beyond the pale. In my book, anyway.

    Of course there is no excuse for holocaust denial however being Pro-Palestinian does not make a person an anti-semite no more than being pro Israeli makes someone and Islamophobe.
    I agree. That is why I used the phrase “some”. There are plenty of people who are pro-Palestinian and want them to have a home who manage not to be anti-semitic. But there have been some who have appeared to justify anti-semitism by those who are pro-Palestinian by implying that it is a justified reaction to what Palestinians suffer. I think it possible to be anti Israel’s treatment of Palestinians without being anti-semitic. And, indeed, it’s important to try and make that distinction if one is serious about wanting to try and help achieve a peaceful resolution.

    It is revealing though that Corbyn thinks that someone indulging in Holocaust denial is, if that report is true, worthy of his support. Though not that surprising given that it was revealed a while back that he too had been a member of several Facebook groups where Holocaust denial was widespread (though not by him). When it was put to him, he stated that he was “not aware”.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 12,995



    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

    I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes - basically if someone said something offensive about Jewish people, I'd tell them to stop talking rubbish, and that's all that's seemed necessary. (I didn't go to a school in the UK so can't comment on whether kids see lots of Nazi posters in history lessons - I certainly didn't in my American-curriculum school.)

    Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,948

    What the Tories need is a grammar school boy - step forward Chris Grayling

    I fail to see why we should all be tarnished with that brush.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393
    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    There are otters in every county now? That is good news.
    Indeed, and it’s not just the otters. Stoats, weasels, polecats, pine martens - all thriving.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/24/britain-carnivore-badger-stoat-otter-pine-marten-numbers-increasing

    Ironically one of the posited explanations for this delightful revival is... global warming.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 20,751

    Given that Theresa May is so relaxed about misleading the House of Commons and lying to the British people, can anyone explain why the EU should take her word on anything? With everything she says and does she reinforces the need for a backstop.

    That is unfair on her. The problem hasn't been dishonesty, it has been that she can't deliver, thanks to the parliamentary arithmetic and the political games being played by various groups of MPs.

    Of course, from the EU's point of view that's an even stronger argument for the backstop, albeit counter-productive if it leads to no deal and no backstop..
    But it is her fault that she has approached the whole affair as if she had a majority, when she hadn't, and made no attempt to come to terms with reality until the end, and appears to be struggling with it even now.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 20,751
    Breaking: PM confirms there will be a vote tomorrow, but won't say anything about what it will be on.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 30,526

    Sean_F said:
    Theresa May expects the facts to speak for themselves. In politics, they don’t.

    If Brexit fails the biggest reason will be the total absence of Theresa’s political skills, not her analytical skills or work ethic.

    I think a Blair or even a Cameron could have got this Deal passed (without any change to the text whatsoever) simply by a much better political operation, which is entirely absent in her nature.
    I think it comes down to the point Osborne made about politics having moved on from the era when 24-hour news started where it was all about message discipline. There was no way for them to counter the deal being trashed simultaneously by Leavers and Remainers.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 31,281



    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

    I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes - basically if someone said something offensive about Jewish people, I'd tell them to stop talking rubbish, and that's all that's seemed necessary. (I didn't go to a school in the UK so can't comment on whether kids see lots of Nazi posters in history lessons - I certainly didn't in my American-curriculum school.)

    Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.

    The difference between you and Corbyn, Nick, is that he has spent decades in the company of avowed anti-Semites without one telling them to stop talking rubbish.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 30,190

    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    The mural is as anti-Semitic as it gets.
  • Just topped up on Tom Tugendhat as next Tory leader.

    You can get 50/1 with Boylesports and 40/1 to 33/1 with other bookies.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 30,190

    Sean_F said:
    Theresa May expects the facts to speak for themselves. In politics, they don’t.

    If Brexit fails the biggest reason will be the total absence of Theresa’s political skills, not her analytical skills or work ethic.

    I think a Blair or even a Cameron could have got this Deal passed (without any change to the text whatsoever) simply by a much better political operation, which is entirely absent in her nature.
    I think it comes down to the point Osborne made about politics having moved on from the era when 24-hour news started where it was all about message discipline. There was no way for them to counter the deal being trashed simultaneously by Leavers and Remainers.
    It goes far beyond that.

    It’s basic party management, and tea room ego management, that she’s failed at, including bringing so many nominally into the heart of Government and then alienating them by exclusion from her inner circle.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 12,803

    Sean_F said:
    Theresa May expects the facts to speak for themselves. In politics, they don’t.

    If Brexit fails the biggest reason will be the total absence of Theresa’s political skills, not her analytical skills or work ethic.

    I think a Blair or even a Cameron could have got this Deal passed (without any change to the text whatsoever) simply by a much better political operation, which is entirely absent in her nature.
    I think it comes down to the point Osborne made about politics having moved on from the era when 24-hour news started where it was all about message discipline. There was no way for them to counter the deal being trashed simultaneously by Leavers and Remainers.
    Yes but no, not in this case. Whatever was said on social media about the deal is irrelevant because the Prime Minister needed to persuade her own MPs. She could not even persuade her own Cabinet.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 984

    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    The mural is as anti-Semitic as it gets.
    I don't often agree with CR on much, but I'm 100% with him on that one. I tend to take things on face value and don't tend to read much into stuff, but I didn't have much of a problem noticing the message in that mural.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393



    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

    I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes

    Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.
    Have you not read ANY history books about the Nazi era? Or the Holocaust? Or Hitler? Or 20th century anti Semitism? Have you never encountered articles, movies, TV documentaries, etc etc, on any of these themes?

    My assumption is you haven’t, because if you had, as an intelligent person you would immediately recognize the tropes in that mural.

    However this in turn means you are spectacularly uneducated and ill-informed about one of the most crucial, pivotal eras of recent human history. I can now see why you chose to become an MP, given that crass stupidity and ignorance are basic requirements for the job, as Brexit has sadly proved.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,122
    edited March 11



    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

    I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes - basically if someone said something offensive about Jewish people, I'd tell them to stop talking rubbish, and that's all that's seemed necessary. (I didn't go to a school in the UK so can't comment on whether kids see lots of Nazi posters in history lessons - I certainly didn't in my American-curriculum school.)

    Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.
    While I would agree in theory I think you need to make the distinction between what you might want if you were starting from a blank sheet - where you might take the position that states should not be based on a credal basis - and where you already have such a state and you are arguing for its destruction. Destroying a state very often involves the destruction or expulsion of its people and when that people is Jewish it is hard to see how that is not anti-semitic. The position of Hamas, for instance, is that there should be no Jews living anywhere between the Jordan and the Mediterranean.

    Also, those who take the view that religious/communal states are bad things - like those arguing that Israel is ipso facto racist - are very rarely found arguing that other such religious/communal states like, say, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or others based on a credal culture should be destroyed or made secular.

    So a cynic might suppose that this dislike of religious/communal states - when it is only and somewhat obsessively directed at one state - is possibly animated by something other than a love of secularism.
  • For someone who is a committed anti racism campaigner Corbyn certainly knows some bigots and anti-semites.

    To not know that mural was overtly anti-semitic really is odd.

    Just what sort anti racism campaigns has Corbyn been on to not know that, or is he just so dense light bends around him?

    It is like a passionate cricket fan not knowing what an LBW is.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,677
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

    The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

    Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

    Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
    Stats on poverty are pretty depressing. Not that it would touch you (or indeed most anyone on PB) but people are getting (relatively - and by that I think the bar is around £12k) poorer.
    I said our economy is doing “ok” - which it is. Certainly compared to some other European nations, let alone the real basket cases elsewhere. Could we do more and better? Do we have major problems? My god, yes. But Brexit is not turning us into a Venezuelan dystopia. Corbyn’s Labour will do that.

    Who cares about "compared to some other European nations"? The point is, poverty is increasing in the UK and I'm sure that in our high-falutin' discussions about Brexit, we miss the fact that some element of the Leave vote was down to people who had nothing to lose and whose situation was and is worsening so actually for them we're not doing OK.

    Signed TOPPING the SOCIALIST
    Can you point to some stats?

    Relative poverty is a very unhelpful concept.

    Poverty is an important issue. So is inequality. But to combine them into a single measure reduces the ability to fight them effectively
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 3,717



    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

    I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes - basically if someone said something offensive about Jewish people, I'd tell them to stop talking rubbish, and that's all that's seemed necessary. (I didn't go to a school in the UK so can't comment on whether kids see lots of Nazi posters in history lessons - I certainly didn't in my American-curriculum school.)

    Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.

    The difference between you and Corbyn, Nick, is that he has spent decades in the company of avowed anti-Semites without one telling them to stop talking rubbish.

    Someone that looks at that mural and says they don't realise it is anti-Semitic is either lying or is so naïve they should not be in politics as they have no perspective on history. I am pretty sure I know which describes Corbyn, but not sure where that leaves Nick Palmer
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 50,101

    For someone who is a committed anti racism campaigner Corbyn certainly knows some bigots and anti-semites.

    To not know that mural was overtly anti-semitic really is odd.

    Just what sort anti racism campaigns has Corbyn been on to not know that, or is he just so dense light bends around him?

    It is like a passionate cricket fan not knowing what an LBW is.

  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 393
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Perfectly put.

    Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

    What was revealing about the story in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the leadership interfering in disciplinary cases was Milne intervening in relation to one case sayong that Corbyn was particularly interested. And the case in which he was interested? That of Glyn Secker, being investigated for particiapting in a Holocaust-denial discussion forum - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-03-10/news/seamus-milne-and-corbyn-aide-blocked-anti-semitism-suspensions-f7c3zjc0j.

    Even if one were to accept - at a push - that some pro-Palestinians might be excused their anti-semitism (and, to be clear, I don’t) there can be no possible excuse for Holocaust denial and, yet, Corbyn was reputedly interested in protecting such a person. People who indulge in, excuse, justify or turn a blind eye to Holocaust denial are utterly beyond the pale. In my book, anyway.

    Of course there is no excuse for holocaust denial however being Pro-Palestinian does not make a person an anti-semite no more than being pro Israeli makes someone and Islamophobe.
    I agree. That is why I used the phrase “some”. There are plenty of people who are pro-Palestinian and want them to have a home who manage not to be anti-semitic. But there have been some who have appeared to justify anti-semitism by

    It is revealing though that Corbyn thinks that someone indulging in Holocaust denial is, if that report is true, worthy of his support. Though not that surprising given that it was revealed a while back that he too had been a member of several Facebook groups where Holocaust denial was widespread (though not by him). When it was put to him, he stated that he was “not aware”.
    I’m off for a gin martini under the tropic stars, so let’s stop faffing about. Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-Semite. He thinks Israel is an evil entity, and he thinks all Jews are rich, white, scheming capitalists and therefore cannot suffer racism. He also thinks they are a vital cog in the capitalist conspiracy that undermines socialism whenever it is attempted, hence its constant and mysterious failure.

    Corbyn dislikes and mistrusts Jews. That’s it. C’est tout.

    Later.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 12,803
    Tugendhat would be our first French Prime Minister.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 30,526



    Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

    It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

    In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

    In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

    A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

    But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

    I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes
    You're using the word 'really' as an exclusionary qualifier which is a recognised sign of evasiveness.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,312
    kjh said:

    SeanT said:

    On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

    Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

    I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

    That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

    Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

    https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

    https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

    Here is the mural

    https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

    I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
    The mural is as anti-Semitic as it gets.
    I don't often agree with CR on much, but I'm 100% with him on that one. I tend to take things on face value and don't tend to read much into stuff, but I didn't have much of a problem noticing the message in that mural.
    It's interesting that one of the latter Harry Potter films used the crushed-people motif to show evil in the Voldemortised Ministry of Magic:
    https://www.tripadvisor.nl/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g2691242-d2147749-i65327415-Warner_Bros_Studio_Tour_London_The_Making_of_Harry_Potter-Leavesden_Hert.html
  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,793

    Tugendhat would be our first French Prime Minister.

    I bet TSE felt dirty placing that particular bet!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 61,400
    Panelbase has a shift in favour of No Deal amongst Scots, they now back independence by 52% to 48% in the event of No Deal compared to 59% to 41% previously. The Deal figure unchanged on 53% to 47%

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/one-way-or-the-other/
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 3,717
    SeanT: Is it true what was alleged on here the other day that you suggested sometime ago that Muslims should be deported from the UK, or was that a misquote?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 12,803
    Cyclefree said:
    In the interests of political balance, could you not think of any leading Conservative MPs (anagram) currently presiding over a shambles?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 54,340
    Cyclefree said:
    One of those cozy merry-go-rounds of the great and the good.
  • Tugendhat would be our first French Prime Minister.

    He's a Gonville and Caius old boy, top chaps. Ken Clarke is an old boy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 14,584

    What the Tories need is a grammar school boy - step forward Chris Grayling

    I fail to see why we should all be tarnished with that brush.
    Didn't know you were a Tory...

    :smile:
  • SeanT: Is it true what was alleged on here the other day that you suggested sometime ago that Muslims should be deported from the UK, or was that a misquote?

    It is true, in Sean's defence he apologised the next day to me for wanting to deport me to Madagascar.
This discussion has been closed.