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  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Oh I do like Kier Starmer.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Starmer isn't sounding on top of his game tonight. Trying to be contrary for the sake of it
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    Starmer nothing has changed

    If Starmer is right - big if - May’s finished.

    I've not said this before...but May is finito...and then we are placed in chaos...

  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    On the other hand, some of his arguments for Britain to stay in Europe - that the European project is faltering and that shades of nationalism are rising throughout the continent that look very nasty indeed - could just as well be pitched as arguments to get out.

    In fact those are his main political arguments for staying in, though it isn't clear to me whether he thinks that Britain remaining in the EU will somehow make Hungarian or Finnish or Italian nationalism less vicious, or just fingers-crossed that it might just keep the tide outvoted in Brussels for a little bit longer if things get really hairy.

    His main economic argument, that there are 400+ million relatively wealthy people living next-door so you ought to be doing a lot of your trade with them, is pretty reasonable, though rather skirts over the fact that in globally proportionate terms they are a market of diminishing significance, but it isn't clear to me why that should involve subsuming one's country into political union with them. After all, there are 1300 million increasingly wealthy people living in a country in Oz's neck of the wood, in a market that really has been racing up the economic rankings and which is now responsible for a lot of their trade, but surely even Mr Rudd would find it premature if Australia gave up on governing itself and settled for sending a few delegates to the National People's Congress instead.
    Fair points
    Fair counter-points are also available.

    But other than the fact Rudd was prepared to use some twitterably robust language (for British politics anyway, might be Ozzie weaksauce), it wasn't an especially interesting read- he doesn't seem to have produced a particularly strong argument, nor an original one. Handy to be reminded that Establishment Thinking is available in an Aussie accent I suppose. There are far superior grounds for Britain staying in the EU than that our antipodean cousins may some day thank us for sticking about to vote against the Hungarian Tide.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Spare a thought for Ms Soubry’s bartender this evening ...
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 46

    Starmer nothing has changed

    If Starmer is right - big if - May’s finished.

    It doesn’t sound like nothing has changed.
    Starmer is responding to what he wants to hear.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    Starmer isn't sounding on top of his game tonight. Trying to be contrary for the sake of it

    What's changed?
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093
    Chris said:

    Drutt said:

    Commons is PACKED. Lidington reporting TM will say more later but have secured legally binding changes. Joint interpretative doc and joint statement.

    But not the unilateral statement? Isn't that the crucial part?
    I think that's the PM's bit later on. Kier Starmer having a difficult gig replying to Lidington on the basis of two docs neither have seen. Making a good opening gag but now flapping a bit, pretending not to know that variations to deals don't need conformed copies annexed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    It may be that nothing substantive has changed, I'll be honest I can no longer keep track of it all and people will take totally opposite lines on whether anything has changed anyway so who the hell knows. The only thing they can certainly change is their attitude. As silly as it is, if they believe something has changed, or are willing to act like it has, then something really has changed.
  • Sweeney74 said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    I agree with this.
    If enough progress has been made tonight (a massive if), then perhaps we can finally draw a line under the whole sorry saga.



    Marco1 said:

    If , (a big if) , there is serious progress tonight then the one thing I believe a lot of people will agree upon is the horrendous mess that our MPs, May, the EU and Government have made of the last two wasted Years of ridiculous diplomacy. It has clearly indicated that democracy only works if you are an Elite and have Elite views.

    Your view is probably going to be more popular but I will completely disagree.

    If (and it is a big if) there is serious progress tonight then belatedly MPs, May, the EU and the Government will have done their job. Its not pretty but it if there's progress and it is done then it is done at last.

    Furthermore in December and January MPs had serious concerns over the backstop. If those have been addressed then that is serious progress.

    It hasn't been pretty but in the words of Otto Von Bismarck “If you like laws and sausages, you should never watch either one being made.”
    Just noticed your avatar. I used to work in one in the sixties when I was in Edinburgh City Police
    A type 42 Tardis?!

    I like the way several old police boxes in Edinburgh are now being used as pop up stalls and coffee shops
    Yes, I noticed that last time I was in tbe City. They were full of information on criminals and the route of hourly beat patrols you had to stick to in case you went missing and the Chief Inspector could trace your movements on patrol. We had no radios or communications and in the middle of the night it was quite scary with one hand wrapped round your truncheon, that was very large and comforting

    I am getting my coat
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    .... and from the other side of the pond: sounds an awful lot like Trump will pardon Manafort.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    B

    This bloke is the best informed Brexit commentator there is ...

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1105225621062541312?s=21

    FWIW, no sensible English lawyer would concede that and would bite somebody else’s hand off if they offered it. There’s an intellectually interesting discussion to be had around conflict of law but on any rational basis it’s an offer which should be taken.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Starmer nothing has changed

    ... except Labour's position since last time this came to the Commons
    That position changes at least weekly
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    The withdrawal agreement is unchanged since November.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    All very well for armchair commentators to opine about something we've not yet seen, but what's the value in people defending or rejecting in the Commons at this point? Ok, the decision to back or not would always be political anyway, but they could at least wait until they was a smidgeon less obvious.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    Sweeney74 said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    I agree with this.
    If enough progress has been made tonight (a massive if), then perhaps we can finally draw a line under the whole sorry saga.



    Marco1 said:

    If , (a big if) , there is serious progress tonight then the one thing I believe a lot of people will agree upon is the horrendous mess that our MPs, May, the EU and Government have made of the last two wasted Years of ridiculous diplomacy. It has clearly indicated that democracy only works if you are an Elite and have Elite views.

    Your view is probably going to be more popular but I will completely disagree.

    If (and it is a big if) there is serious progress tonight then belatedly MPs, May, the EU and the Government will have done their job. Its not pretty but it if there's progress and it is done then it is done at last.

    Furthermore in December and January MPs had serious concerns over the backstop. If those have been addressed then that is serious progress.

    It hasn't been pretty but in the words of Otto Von Bismarck “If you like laws and sausages, you should never watch either one being made.”
    Just noticed your avatar. I used to work in one in the sixties when I was in Edinburgh City Police
    A type 42 Tardis?!
    Eccleston's, if my eyes do not deceive me.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    TGOHF said:

    Spare a thought for Ms Soubry’s bartender this evening ...

    Shouldn't she be renamed the Sowbitch in imitation of the Pigdog ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Scott_P said:
    And so we see why it will probably still fail - talk like that, which the EU will also no doubt push, gives the ERG and Lab rebels all the ammunition they need to keep on refusing it.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    Betting post.

    A reminder, further to the conversation some of us had last month.

    You can bet on the UK and EU reaching an *agreement* by March 29th (without needing to leave, i.e. if a short extension was required to get the required legislation through) by backing the withdrawal agreement to be approved by the council of the EU and UK parliament before 30/03/19 on Betfair Sportsbook.

    price is currently 9/4, which in my view is a safer bet than the 4/1 offered on BF exchange that we will actually leave before the 30th.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    kle4 said:

    houndtang said:

    kle4 said:

    Well, duh, of course the government is trying to bounce the ERG and DUP into a deal. What planet have they been living on for the last 6 months?
    How long before we get a DUP statement saying it's completely unacceptable?
    I'm amazed we've not had one already. But give it til morning, they don't want to appear totally unreasonable.
    If anyone is being bounced or blinking it’s clearly Dublin.

    Despite all the bluster from Dublin in recent weeks, if they allow the British unilateral declaration as part of the arrangement that is a hell of a climb down by Dublin.

    Personally I felt this impasse wasn’t UK v EU but EU standing beside Dublin, but EU would move if Dublin took the lead. It looks like this moment is where Dublin blinks. If they allow UK a legal unilateral declaration on backstop, DUP will signal support for May tomorrow and most ERG will follow that lead. DUP + at least 80 ERG + at least 30 Labour who don’t want this to go to further Ref, Mays deal comfortably wins tomorrow doesn’t it?

    The time it takes for the Irish Cabinet to eat pizza and Guinness for supper and Brexit is going to happen!
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 46
    You have a good eye.
    viewcode said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    I agree with this.
    If enough progress has been made tonight (a massive if), then perhaps we can finally draw a line under the whole sorry saga.



    Marco1 said:

    If , (a big if) , there is serious progress tonight then the one thing I believe a lot of people will agree upon is the horrendous mess that our MPs, May, the EU and Government have made of the last two wasted Years of ridiculous diplomacy. It has clearly indicated that democracy only works if you are an Elite and have Elite views.

    Your view is probably going to be more popular but I will completely disagree.

    If (and it is a big if) there is serious progress tonight then belatedly MPs, May, the EU and the Government will have done their job. Its not pretty but it if there's progress and it is done then it is done at last.

    Furthermore in December and January MPs had serious concerns over the backstop. If those have been addressed then that is serious progress.

    It hasn't been pretty but in the words of Otto Von Bismarck “If you like laws and sausages, you should never watch either one being made.”
    Just noticed your avatar. I used to work in one in the sixties when I was in Edinburgh City Police
    A type 42 Tardis?!
    Eccleston's, if my eyes do not deceive me.
  • I believe the ERG and DUP will say No, and Labour will whip against
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    What in the bloody hell is the point of this theatre if Cox is not yet on board, and it is such fine margins that he is agonising over the call? If the margins are that fine his view won't persuade the ERG legal eagles.
    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1105231401576787968
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    FF43 said:

    dixiedean said:

    FF43 said:

    Talking of languages, Kevin Rudd speaks genuinely fluent Chinese. A rare skill amongst English speakers.
    Blushes and buffs nails. As indeed did Paddy Ashdown.
    Here he is being interviewed talking about Xi Jinping's politics

    https://youtu.be/fjOgglWfJhs
    Pretty impressive .
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    And so we see why it will probably still fail - talk like that, which the EU will also no doubt push, gives the ERG and Lab rebels all the ammunition they need to keep on refusing it.
    It does seem as if the remain camp are getting a bit agitated
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    kle4 said:

    What in the bloody hell is the point of this theatre if Cox is not yet on board, and it is such fine margins that he is agonising over the call? If the margins are that fine his view won't persuade the ERG legal eagles.
    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1105231401576787968

    Its posturing.

    Its ALWAYS posturing.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    Drutt said:

    Chris said:

    Drutt said:

    Commons is PACKED. Lidington reporting TM will say more later but have secured legally binding changes. Joint interpretative doc and joint statement.

    But not the unilateral statement? Isn't that the crucial part?
    I think that's the PM's bit later on. Kier Starmer having a difficult gig replying to Lidington on the basis of two docs neither have seen. Making a good opening gag but now flapping a bit, pretending not to know that variations to deals don't need conformed copies annexed.
    May's statement seems to be 25 minutes late, though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Seems May has managed to get some new temporary legal assurances on the backstop, unlikely to be enough to win the vote but could be enough to narrow the margin of defeat enabling passage on a third vote
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited March 2019
    The actual legal advice is utterly irrelevant. There's no point discussing it in contract/treaty terms. The question is entirely whether MPs want to believe it enough to pass the deal.

    Personally I am doubtful, but we're talking mind reading here.
  • kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    I believe the ERG and DUP will say No, and Labour will whip against


    I do believe that May is going to get well and truly whipped tomorrow.....

    God knows what the hell is going to happen thereafter....
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Scott_P said:
    Best endeavours. Look at the Blackpool Airport case (and others). “Legally pointless” is so wrong as to be embarrassing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Oh christ no, they've had plenty of time, they can do all that tomorrow with time to spare - what else will there be to discuss but what is new?
    https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1105232205759070208
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    No changes at all to WA

    AG agonising

    FFS
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    He really is a bonafide knob jockey
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    HYUFD said:

    Seems May has managed to get some new temporary legal assurances on the backstop, unlikely to be enough to win the vote but could be enough to narrow the margin of defeat enabling passage on a third vote

    What will be the rabbit out of the hat to change things on the third vote?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film. Higher, further, faster baby.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Question, if Cox does not think he can change his advice, then wouldn't that be calling Lidington and by extension May a liar for saying legally binding changes had been secured?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Scott_P said:
    LV waiting for instructions from the EU, by the sounds of it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    Sweeney74 said:

    viewcode said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    A type 42 Tardis?!

    Eccleston's, if my eyes do not deceive me.
    You have a good eye.
    Thank you

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I saw The Last Jedi four times - but it's still a bad film!
  • No changes at all to WA

    AG agonising

    FFS

    TM and Junckers have not made their statement

    Why so many go of on one before the actual statements and documentation I have no idea

    Let us see and then we do not end up with egg on our face
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film...
    CoughcoughWinterSoldiercoughcough

  • kle4 said:

    Question, if Cox does not think he can change his advice, then wouldn't that be calling Lidington and by extension May a liar for saying legally binding changes had been secured?

    Wait and see
  • viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film...
    CoughcoughWinterSoldiercoughcough

    Very good but not as great as Civil War.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film...
    CoughcoughWinterSoldiercoughcough

    Ragnarok is my 2nd favourite. :wink:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Doesn't sound like the headbangers are going for it.

    They prefer crisis
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film. Higher, further, faster baby.
    It was fun, told an origin story with more variety than most do, had a good twist and Larsson and Jackson were a great double team, with Larsson very likable as a character. Yeah, it was no masterpiece, it was a marvel movie and part of their regular formula, but I really like the formula and it mixed it up enough. Loved it.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    matt said:



    Australian politicians would struggle with idea of President for Life (as opposed to Pm for the next 15 minutes). Although, FWIW, I think (mimicing Chinese friends) that the relevant lives, for Xi, will be Taiwanese, as one county, one system is becomes real to stave off domestic issues.

    That's a decent call, I fear. And an interesting comparison.

    The voting public of Taiwan seem very torn between going their own way (and those who want this most keenly tend to envision going forth unto the world as stridently Taiwanese) versus settling for some (ultimately political) acceptance of their own Chinahood. Rather reminiscent of Brexit Britain, or Norway's ground-out-to-a-multi-decadal-draw of a debate - though taking place before the institutions have been put in place rather than after, and as far as I can tell (I'm drawing on anecdatally limited sample size here) it's the youngsters who seem most keen on actively rejecting political union.

    Have a good night all. Don't stay up too late with the excitement - think there could be a few more rounds of this all to come!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    No changes at all to WA

    AG agonising

    FFS

    TM and Junckers have not made their statement

    Why so many go of on one before the actual statements and documentation I have no idea

    Let us see and then we do not end up with egg on our face
    Bet she won't take questions tonight.

    She should answer are there any changes at all to WA

    Is Cox agonising if so why.

    She won't.

    Nothing has changed pin respect of WA IMO.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:
    LV waiting for instructions from the EU, by the sounds of it.

    Sounds like the Irish get to sign off on the unilateral declaration.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I saw The Last Jedi four times - but it's still a bad film!
    Why did you see it so many times if you thought it was bad?!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film. Higher, further, faster baby.
    It was fun, told an origin story with more variety than most do, had a good twist and Larsson and Jackson were a great double team, with Larsson very likable as a character. Yeah, it was no masterpiece, it was a marvel movie and part of their regular formula, but I really like the formula and it mixed it up enough. Loved it.
    Good review.

    On the feminism element, and I say this from a male perspective, that I thought they got it spot on in a way that Wonder Woman didn't.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    I believe the ERG and DUP will say No, and Labour will whip against

    If DUP accept this climb down by Dublin at least 30 Labour MPs will defy WIP to support the deal.

    The longer DUP go without comment the more likely they will vote with May
  • Starmer saying they will oppose the deal even without seeing it

    Pathetic. Even Steve Baker is cautious
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2019
    Keir Starmer has been quite extraordinarily, disgracefully cynical on this. He's done an ERG: trashing the revised agreement without knowing what it is. He didn't even make a token attempt to sound reasonable. I used to have some respect for him, but not any more.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    dots said:

    I believe the ERG and DUP will say No, and Labour will whip against

    If DUP accept this climb down by Dublin at least 30 Labour MPs will defy WIP to support the deal.

    The longer DUP go without comment the more likely they will vote with May
    Sky reporting only that DUP have said they will study the detail.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 46

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film...
    CoughcoughWinterSoldiercoughcough

    Very good but not as great as Civil War.
    Howard The Duck
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Scott_P said:

    Doesn't sound like the headbangers are going for it.

    They prefer crisis

    Th Tory headbangers are not the issue. It's the massed ranks of the Tory Brexiteers and Labour rebels who will decide it, and for the former what the DUP think.

    Thank goodness the DUP are known for their careful consideration of weighty issues and political restraint.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Scott_P said:

    Doesn't sound like the headbangers are going for it.

    They prefer crisis

    Crucially though not Nigel Dodds and the DUP who said they will analyse it very carefully, even Paterson said has some good news in it. Redwood is not happy but Redwood was one of the 20 who voted against extension and would not back the Deal even without the backstop because of financial concerns
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:
    LV waiting for instructions from the EU, by the sounds of it.

    Sounds like the Irish get to sign off on the unilateral declaration.

    But only after the wording of the unilateral declaration has been agreed between May and Juncker?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    Seems May has managed to get some new temporary legal assurances on the backstop, unlikely to be enough to win the vote but could be enough to narrow the margin of defeat enabling passage on a third vote

    What will be the rabbit out of the hat to change things on the third vote?
    The threat of BINO or No Brexit at all
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Keir Starmer has been quite extraordinarily, disgracefully cynical on this. He's done an ERG: trashing the revised agreement without knowing what it is. He didn't even make a token attempt to sound reasonable. I used to have some respect for him, but not any more.

    Only if he’s wrong.

  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Seems May has managed to get some new temporary legal assurances on the backstop, unlikely to be enough to win the vote but could be enough to narrow the margin of defeat enabling passage on a third vote

    What will be the rabbit out of the hat to change things on the third vote?
    The threat of BINO or No Brexit at all
    It's worked so well this far.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Starmer saying they will oppose the deal even without seeing it

    Pathetic. Even Steve Baker is cautious

    That's politics for you. Disappointing all the same.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Starmer saying they will oppose the deal even without seeing it

    Pathetic. Even Steve Baker is cautious

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Labour's objections to the deal always went way beyond the backstop.

    Given that Mrs May is not going to announce she and Juncker have amended the deal to include a Customs Union, Starmer knows Labour will continue to oppose it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Starmer saying they will oppose the deal even without seeing it

    Pathetic. Even Steve Baker is cautious

    Labour were never going to support anything May comes up with. Simples.

    Question is how many defy the whip.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Has Kate Hoey defected?

    image
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Starmer saying they will oppose the deal even without seeing it

    Pathetic. Even Steve Baker is cautious

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Labour's objections to the deal always went way beyond the backstop.

    Given that Mrs May is not going to announce she and Juncker have amended the deal to include a Customs Union, Starmer knows Labour will continue to oppose it.
    But the backstop is a de facto customs union :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited March 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Seems May has managed to get some new temporary legal assurances on the backstop, unlikely to be enough to win the vote but could be enough to narrow the margin of defeat enabling passage on a third vote

    What will be the rabbit out of the hat to change things on the third vote?
    The threat of BINO or No Brexit at all
    It's worked so well this far.
    If the House rejects the Deal tomorrow it will almost certainly also reject No Deal and vote for extension of Article 50, hence the threat becomes real
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:
    LV waiting for instructions from the EU, by the sounds of it.

    Sounds like the Irish get to sign off on the unilateral declaration.

    Sign this or get a hard border.

    Not much of a sign off....
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Keir Starmer has been quite extraordinarily, disgracefully cynical on this. He's done an ERG: trashing the revised agreement without knowing what it is. He didn't even make a token attempt to sound reasonable. I used to have some respect for him, but not any more.

    Only if he’s wrong.

    Not at all. A person of integrity - let alone a lawyer - doesn't trash a proposed deal without reading it. He's a disgrace.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Has Kate Hoey defected?

    image

    Kate Hoey of the DUP has not defected, no.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Scott_P said:
    Anyone tonight trying push line nothing has changed need to explain to us exactly why Dublin Government are agonising over nothing.

    Those pushing nothing has changed are second ref remainiacs with defeat written all over their face, are they not?
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545
    edited March 2019
    This all sounds like a boyfriend buying a present for his girlfriend to stop her leaving him. It's all a bit obvious and desperate, and a bit of a distraction from the bigger issues. Do I believe that there are a majority who now see the deal as fixed? No chance.

    Fundamentally, is there now a majority desperate enough to do a deal? I can't see it myself, but unlike the first debate where we had 5 days over 2 months to see how MPs stood, it's all in a day now. The first few who say they are against will set the tone. Marc Francois and Andrew Bridgen to speak first tomorrow?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Has Kate Hoey defected?

    image

    There have always been Labour/Tory [depending upon who is the opposition] MPs on that part of the benches
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Keir Starmer has been quite extraordinarily, disgracefully cynical on this. He's done an ERG: trashing the revised agreement without knowing what it is. He didn't even make a token attempt to sound reasonable. I used to have some respect for him, but not any more.

    Only if he’s wrong.

    Not at all. A person of integrity - let alone a lawyer - doesn't trash a proposed deal without reading it. He's a disgrace.
    He's read it. It's been published for months. The WA is not changing.
  • Joint press conference starting
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    Keir Starmer has been quite extraordinarily, disgracefully cynical on this. He's done an ERG: trashing the revised agreement without knowing what it is. He didn't even make a token attempt to sound reasonable. I used to have some respect for him, but not any more.

    Since neither he nor the government minister commending it has seen the "agreement" (not that it matters, see my note below), what do you expect him to say? "Gosh! You've nailed it! Well done guys."
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    On other matters, Dan Hodges really is a fool
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105226399089152007

    Testify. I’ve seen it four times.
    I thought it was great. My favourite Marvel film...
    CoughcoughWinterSoldiercoughcough

    Very good but not as great as Civil War.
    I thought Civil War only makes sense if you have seen the other movies, but Winter Soldier is more self-contained and has better fight scenes
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093
    If you're wondering whether it's Brexit or Corbynism that's more damaging, bear in mind that in Venezuela there's been limited electricity (no wifi, no data, no life support in hospitals) for five days and the schools have closed because of it and so have most businesses. And there's looting, and the last five years' GDP growth figures are -4, -6, -16, -16, -16, and prices double every three weeks.

    And we're gossiping about how good Captain Marvel is.

    Anyway, Juncker and TM on telly now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    I cannot see it getting the votes needed, but I suppose that we will know for sure in 24 hours.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Agreed - it's all about how many needed a face-saving way out and how many are hard-core no-dealers.
  • Junckers seems quite upset to be fair
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    FF43 said:

    Keir Starmer has been quite extraordinarily, disgracefully cynical on this. He's done an ERG: trashing the revised agreement without knowing what it is. He didn't even make a token attempt to sound reasonable. I used to have some respect for him, but not any more.

    Since neither he nor the government minister commending it has seen the "agreement" (not that it matters, see my note below), what do you expect him to say? "Gosh! You've nailed it! Well done guys."
    I expect him to say 'we look forward to seeing the details, and then we will give our view'. How difficult is that for a lawyer? Or indeed for an reasonable person. Hell, even the DUP have managed that.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Keir Starmer has been quite extraordinarily, disgracefully cynical on this. He's done an ERG: trashing the revised agreement without knowing what it is. He didn't even make a token attempt to sound reasonable. I used to have some respect for him, but not any more.

    Only if he’s wrong.

    Not at all. A person of integrity - let alone a lawyer - doesn't trash a proposed deal without reading it. He's a disgrace.

    He has not seen it, so he has to summise - which is exactly how he framed what he said. Look it up in Hansard when it’s published.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    May has been hinging her hopes on that group as being very big for months. Now we'll see if those hopes were fruitless at least. Same with the occasionally rumoured 'dozens' of Labour votes which are needed even if 50+ Tories change their minds.

    It's something (or at least presented as something). That at least means people have to reconfirm their positions in light of purportedly new info, which is progress in one sense at least
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Seems May has managed to get some new temporary legal assurances on the backstop, unlikely to be enough to win the vote but could be enough to narrow the margin of defeat enabling passage on a third vote

    What will be the rabbit out of the hat to change things on the third vote?
    The threat of BINO or No Brexit at all
    It's worked so well this far.
    If the House rejects the Deal tomorrow it will almost certainly also reject No Deal and vote for extension of Article 50, hence the threat becomes real
    It should already be real to them. When I'm standing in the path of an oncoming train it is still real when it is 500m away, not just 50m away. They know no Brexit or BINO could happen if they vote down the deal, they always have
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Drutt said:

    If you're wondering whether it's Brexit or Corbynism that's more damaging, bear in mind that in Venezuela there's been limited electricity (no wifi, no data, no life support in hospitals) for five days and the schools have closed because of it and so have most businesses. And there's looting, and the last five years' GDP growth figures are -4, -6, -16, -16, -16, and prices double every three weeks.

    And we're gossiping about how good Captain Marvel is.

    Anyway, Juncker and TM on telly now.

    Very well said!
  • Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    Hold firm ERG and vote this awful deal down.
This discussion has been closed.