It should spook them because of the reaction of the electorate. You know, the people who vote in elections. Food prices will rise is not a vote winner. Still, some inflation will harm those on fixed incomes. The retired voted for it, they can enjoy it.
£1500 on a new VW Golf...
That should put the frighteners on some.
VW should have ceased to exist following the emissions scandal. The power of Germany. Compare to the reaction of British authorities to Rolls-Royce cheating.
This shows how brilliant NCAP have been at forcing safety standards up: less than a decade earlier, both these cars scored well.
The world has changed. The final sentence in the initial section of your link indicates the extent to which VW was a corrupt organisation. Arguably one might say that the cheating worked in that it allowed the VAG to cement a dominant position in the European auto market. One could reasonably conclude that systemic lawbreaking is an effective business practice if the cost is significantly less than the benefit.
I'd argue it wasn't much different to when the other manufacturers made 'mistakes'.
It's odd how those 'mistakes' were always to their benefit.
They did it because, whilst the regulations were strict, the testing was incredibly lax. The answer is to increase the independent testing. As I said, Euro NCAP is probably a good model to base a new organisation on.
We should agree to disagree. Although as an endnote, if the cheating is embedded in the auto’s software systems, I would have thought that third party testing would be materially harder than NCAP. One would still be relying on the honesty of the manufacturer and if they are endemically dishonest... The Huawei effect, as it were.
So this morning we are in the bizarre situation where the only institution more scandal-ridden, inept, leaderless, pathetic and dishonest than the government...
...is the Opposition.
Reflected in the fact the Tories still have a big lead in the polls despite being split from top to bottom and having just suffered the two heaviest defeats of any government since 1688.
And on top of that, in 16 days we have a massive economic upheaval to contend with.
Find it weird that so much focus is on the hardline Leavers, whereas the majority of MPs opposing the deal are pro-EU.
It's ironic that those who love and hate the EU found themselves voting the same way.
The deal was killed by Leavers. If Leavers had collectively backed the deal, enough erstwhile Remainers would have been persuadable to get it over the line.
Indeed. If all Conservative Leavers had voted for the Deal last night, it would only have lost by about 15 or so - easily close enough to justify a near-immediate MV3 and massive pressure put on the Remainer Conservative rebels. I'd expect it to have certainly passed on a third go by this weekend.
So, as far as I can tell: - they had a referendum, and the people got the answer "wrong"; - so they had another one, and the people got the answer even wronger; - at the same time, a separate referendum resulted in the people voting to actually move in the opposite direction to the one preferred by the State Governor; - so obviously, the Governor in question is unilaterally trying to implement his original plan anyway.
At least it's only life and death, and not something really important, like Brexit.
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
I’ve woken up today much more anxious than yesterday. No Deal suddenly seems a very real possibility, maybe even the likeliest outcome. Today’s vote changes nothing.
Find it weird that so much focus is on the hardline Leavers, whereas the majority of MPs opposing the deal are pro-EU.
It's ironic that those who love and hate the EU found themselves voting the same way.
The deal was killed by Leavers. If Leavers had collectively backed the deal, enough erstwhile Remainers would have been persuadable to get it over the line.
Indeed. If all Conservative Leavers had voted for the Deal last night, it would only have lost by about 15 or so - easily close enough to justify a near-immediate MV3 and massive pressure put on the Remainer Conservative rebels. I'd expect it to have certainly passed on a third go by this weekend.
And, further, had we been in that position, enough Labour leavers would have gone along with it in return for their place in history.
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
I’ve woken up today much more anxious than yesterday. No Deal suddenly seems a very real possibility, maybe even the likeliest outcome. Today’s vote changes nothing.
We should agree to disagree. Although as an endnote, if the cheating is embedded in the auto’s software systems, I would have thought that third party testing would be materially harder than NCAP. One would still be relying on the honesty of the manufacturer and if they are endemically dishonest... The Huawei effect, as it were.
Fair enough re. disagreeing.
But if I may: the problems are the laxness of the tests and the people doing the testing. IIRC, this was discovered when someone doing testing - and with their own emissions kit - realised that the real-world emissions from driving on the road were massively different from those reported. Not just a little different; massively different.
There's nothing stopping an independent test body doing similar tests. Get them to buy a brand-new car from a dealer's showroom (not one provided by the manufacturer), and then test it thoroughly and fairly. Then let the manufacturers argue if they dislike the results.
The current system is far too cosy to the manufacturers. And hence we get back to the FAA and Boeing.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
Find it weird that so much focus is on the hardline Leavers, whereas the majority of MPs opposing the deal are pro-EU.
It's ironic that those who love and hate the EU found themselves voting the same way.
The deal was killed by Leavers. If Leavers had collectively backed the deal, enough erstwhile Remainers would have been persuadable to get it over the line.
Given the number of government loyalists who supported Remain in the referendum the Deal probably had the support of more Remainer MPs than Leaver MPs.
Mr. Fire, the vast majority of MPs backed triggering Article 50 and starting the process of leaving the EU.
Doing that, then opposing May's deal *and* opposing no deal is completely irrational. Or cowardly. Either way, it's bloody stupid. If you don't want us to leave, fine, but voting to start the process then rejecting any sort of leaving is worthy of contempt, and comment.
If Parliament has voted against leaving with a deal and votes today against leaving without a deal, then logically it is saying that it wants to Remain.
There is no other choice. There is no other deal on the table.
So it has to revoke Article 50 or seek a long enough extension to allow a referendum to be held to let us make a decision. But since Parliament doesn’t seem able or willing to enact the decisions made by referenda, then the only thing left to do, given how little time there is left, is to revoke while we work out what we do want to do.
But I fear that through panic and incompetence and stupidity we will end up exiting in chaos. Those hard right Tory MPs who think this will benefit their style of politics do not seem to realise that this makes a hard Left government increaingly likely and will be the first to be crying out for the protections that EU membership gave us.
It is very depressing and very sad.
Whatever happens we have done a great deal of harm to our reputation as a stable sensible country.
Talking of weather, Wind is worst in the UK in a band that goes from Liverpool to Cleethorpes, Ripon to Leicester. Scotland and southern England relatively calm right now
Looking at windy.com
A fresh north-westerly in south Devon at the moment. Dog didn't hang around long before wanting to retreat to a snug sofa....
Talking of weather, Wind is worst in the UK in a band that goes from Liverpool to Cleethorpes, Ripon to Leicester. Scotland and southern England relatively calm right now
Looking at windy.com
A fresh north-westerly in south Devon at the moment. Dog didn't hang around long before wanting to retreat to a snug sofa....
If Parliament has voted against leaving with a deal and votes today against leaving without a deal, then logically it is saying that it wants to Remain.
There is no other choice. There is no other deal on the table.
So it has to revoke Article 50 or seek a long enough extension to allow a referendum to be held to let us make a decision. But since Parliament doesn’t seem able or willing to enact the decisions made by referenda, then the only thing left to do, given how little time there is left, is to revoke while we work out what we do want to do.
But I fear that through panic and incompetence and stupidity we will end up exiting in chaos. Those hard right Tory MPs who think this will benefit their style of politics do not seem to realise that this makes a hard Left government increaingly likely and will be the first to be crying out for the protections that EU membership gave us.
It is very depressing and very sad.
Whatever happens we have done a great deal of harm to our reputation as a stable sensible country.
They have always wanted to remain. They just lied to get elected. Today will see more virtue signalling. It’s tiresome. They should just order the PM to revoke and have done with this democracy nonsense once and for all.
Changing the electorate for a second referendum would absolutely undermine its legitimacy
For this to have any chance of achieving a long term resolution it needs to be like Caeser’s Wife
On the contrary. The legitimacy of the first referendum is highly questionable. The second one needs to be seen as the definitive one and so has to have as broad an electorate as possible.
No. The perception will be that the Remainers didn’t get the answer they wanted so not only are they having a revote but they are trying to tip the scales even further
Most people will breathe a sigh of relief if it is seen as a means os settling the thing once and for all.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
They are betting that Treason Mayhem won't revoke A50 when the UK is on the vinegar strokes of no deal in a few week's time. Given that she puts the tory party ahead of the country every single time it's a sporting bet.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
Talking of weather, Wind is worst in the UK in a band that goes from Liverpool to Cleethorpes, Ripon to Leicester. Scotland and southern England relatively calm right now
Looking at windy.com
A fresh north-westerly in south Devon at the moment. Dog didn't hang around long before wanting to retreat to a snug sofa....
Talking of weather, Wind is worst in the UK in a band that goes from Liverpool to Cleethorpes, Ripon to Leicester. Scotland and southern England relatively calm right now
Looking at windy.com
A fresh north-westerly in south Devon at the moment. Dog didn't hang around long before wanting to retreat to a snug sofa....
Seriously windy driving to Perth this morning.
Ayrshire was wild all night howling and chucking it down, now just strong winds rain stopped and sun out.
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
It can't just be "cancelled". That would be a surefire way to totally fuck the country.
You think it can get any more "Fcuked" up?
Yes, Malc, it can still get a lot, lot worse. If that bunch of tossers in Westminster just say "fuck it, it's cancelled" because they are too stupid to make things work, then we are really down the rabbit hole.
At some point the EU will accept that any resurgence of the troubles will fall almost wholly on the UK. No letter bombs were sent to the GFA. As we have seen, meanwhile, no border will be put up.
It will be the UK's problem while any retaliation against NI Catholics will be condemned vigorously. All the while pressure for a united Ireland will mount.
Could the madmen in the ERG branch of the Conservative and Unionist Party have played this any worse?
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
It's not the only vote, and should be followed by others which might demonstrate a parliamentary majority in favour of actually doing something. Whether there is now time to do that and then implement it is another matter - and probably subject to the co-operation of the EU members.
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
No Deal is on the statute book. So it will happen unless alternative legislation is brought in. Today’s vote achieves nothing. Unless it is followed by legislation cancelling the previous legislation and revoking Article 50. All of this is under our control.
Anything else requires the EU to agree and they may not or impose unacceptable conditions.
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
Sometimes you have to lead people through the logic very slowly in tiny steps. So it is with the House of Commons.
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
May might use it in an emergency last-minute thing to say no-deal is out, there are no other options, so I am triggering the deal. Essentially this is a de facto meaningful vote.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
They are betting that Treason Mayhem won't revoke A50 when the UK is on the vinegar strokes of no deal in a few week's time. Given that she puts the tory party ahead of the country every single time it's a sporting bet.
Of course May will revoke if it gets to the wire. Her vote against no deal today is a sure sign. So far, her wanting to keep her party together has pushed her toward humouring the nutters, but no deal works the other way.
No no. Everything will carry on as normal. Remainers are perfectly confident about that.
I think the ERG are a bunch of fanatical morons, but the People's Vote Remainers are even more deluded. The idea that a second vote will end the issue is ridiculous. There are going to be millions of very, very pissed-off people, and the damage done to politics in this country will be profound.
There is a lot of merit in the argument that with the country split down the middle on EU membership that we need a close relationship with the EU, whilst no longer remaining a member. The advocates for the two extremes — Remain and pretend that settles the issue, or crash-out WTO advocates — are both playing with fire, even if they don't realise it.
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
It can't just be "cancelled". That would be a surefire way to totally fuck the country.
No no. Everything will carry on as normal. Remainers are perfectly confident about that.
More threats of vandalism and violence are surely only moments away.
I dunno about threats of vandalism and violence. I'm sure there would be a few people who fancy caving in the front of Currys to get a free telly though. I do know that Westminster is in a very precarious position. They have never been more hated than they are at this moment. The whole place looks like a nest of vipers. That isn't good for democracy in this country and will lead to some very unpleasant results at the ballot box come the GE that must surely be coming like a train towards us. A second referendum might take some of the toxicity out of the atmosphere, whereas a straight up revocation would intensify it.
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
It's not the only vote, and should be followed by others which might demonstrate a parliamentary majority in favour of actually doing something. Whether there is now time to do that and then implement it is another matter - and probably subject to the co-operation of the EU members.
It changes things politically rather than legally. And gives government justification to bring forward a revocation to enact Parliament's will, in extremis.
It also reduces the number of remaining options and therefore pushes others up the list.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
They are betting that Treason Mayhem won't revoke A50 when the UK is on the vinegar strokes of no deal in a few week's time. Given that she puts the tory party ahead of the country every single time it's a sporting bet.
It sounded yesterday as though she backed away from that, as she said that No Deal presents a risk to the Union.
She's still hoping to force her deal through rather than pivoting to an alternative though.
Today's and tomorrows votes are all about giving the virtue signalling numpties in parly something to virtue signal about "oooh I voted against/for no deal then tweeted about it".
They have forgotten how to lead and govern.
Mr Malthouse at least seems to have worked out a plan - whether you like it or not at least it has some detail.
The rest are just thrashing around suggesting can kicking or referendums with loaded questions which would leave the country ungovernable afterwards.
We need to choose better politicians and hammer them at the ballot box when they fail to deliver. Some good may come of this.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
Conversely a Leaver would have to be a special kind of dim not to have foreseen precisely this outcome. Whatever the outcome will be of course.
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
May might use it in an emergency last-minute thing to say no-deal is out, there are no other options, so I am triggering the deal. Essentially this is a de facto meaningful vote.
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
It can't just be "cancelled". That would be a surefire way to totally fuck the country.
It can be cancelled. And that is the only way to avoid further damage to the country.
You don't even want a "People's Vote"? How very democratic of you.
My argument is that Brexit is so damaging it should be cancelled. That's it. If we vote for it again it will still be damaging. So I would still think it should be cancelled.
Something I was thinking about last night, there seems to be an incredibly arrogant unspoken assumption that an extension will automatically be granted (By implication this is for remainers voting against the deal). It probably will be, but it might not.
Something I was thinking about last night, there seems to be an incredibly arrogant unspoken assumption that an extension will automatically be granted (By implication this is for remainers voting against the deal). It probably will be, but it might not.
Something I was thinking about last night, there seems to be an incredibly arrogant unspoken assumption that an extension will automatically be granted (By implication this is for remainers voting against the deal). It probably will be, but it might not.
If the EU want the deal to be voted through at the 3rd attempt they should reject an extension.
Today's and tomorrows votes are all about giving the virtue signalling numpties in parly something to virtue signal about "oooh I voted against/for no deal then tweeted about it".
They have forgotten how to lead and govern.
Mr Malthouse at least seems to have worked out a plan - whether you like it or not at least it has some detail.
The rest are just thrashing around suggesting can kicking or referendums with loaded questions which would leave the country ungovernable afterwards.
Norway Plus / Common Market 2.0 / UK4EFTA / etc. counts as "a plan", too. It has disadvantages, yes, but what doesn't.
It also has the crucial advantage that our laws will be made by actual grown-ups in Brussels rather than overgrown toddlers in Westminster.
Can someone clever explain to me how today’s vote changes anything? Even if parliament expresses a clear rejection of No Deal, No Deal is still the default in 17 days, right?
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
What did flying to Strasbourg on Monday night achieve? What did last night's vote achieve? I guess the only answer is "all of it is TMay trying to lead a majority of MPs to a conclusion other than folding their arms and going harrumph". With, erm, limited success so far - a pattern I expect will be repeated tonight.
Something I was thinking about last night, there seems to be an incredibly arrogant unspoken assumption that an extension will automatically be granted (By implication this is for remainers voting against the deal). It probably will be, but it might not.
It seemed pretty clear that the EU will only grant an extension if it serves some useful purpose, but won't do so in order to give the UK Parliament a few more months to kick the can down the road.
Talking of weather, Wind is worst in the UK in a band that goes from Liverpool to Cleethorpes, Ripon to Leicester. Scotland and southern England relatively calm right now
Looking at windy.com
A fresh north-westerly in south Devon at the moment. Dog didn't hang around long before wanting to retreat to a snug sofa....
Talking of weather, Wind is worst in the UK in a band that goes from Liverpool to Cleethorpes, Ripon to Leicester. Scotland and southern England relatively calm right now
Looking at windy.com
A fresh north-westerly in south Devon at the moment. Dog didn't hang around long before wanting to retreat to a snug sofa....
It should spook them because of the reaction of the electorate. You know, the people who vote in elections. Food prices will rise is not a vote winner. Still, some inflation will harm those on fixed incomes. The retired voted for it, they can enjoy it.
£1500 on a new VW Golf...
That should put the frighteners on some.
Why would I need a Golf when I'm getting a free Unicorn?
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
It can't just be "cancelled". That would be a surefire way to totally fuck the country.
You think it can get any more "Fcuked" up?
Yes, Malc, it can still get a lot, lot worse. If that bunch of tossers in Westminster just say "fuck it, it's cancelled" because they are too stupid to make things work, then we are really down the rabbit hole.
Today's and tomorrows votes are all about giving the virtue signalling numpties in parly something to virtue signal about "oooh I voted against/for no deal then tweeted about it".
They have forgotten how to lead and govern.
Mr Malthouse at least seems to have worked out a plan - whether you like it or not at least it has some detail.
The rest are just thrashing around suggesting can kicking or referendums with loaded questions which would leave the country ungovernable afterwards.
Norway Plus / Common Market 2.0 / UK4EFTA / etc. counts as "a plan", too. It has disadvantages, yes, but what doesn't.
It also has the crucial advantage that our laws will be made by actual grown-ups in Brussels rather than overgrown toddlers in Westminster.
The reason Labour has started talking up its deal again is because something along those lines is probably the least unpopular and would have emerged top had Parliament held the indicative votes that were being proposed weeks back.
May's deal has been rejected heavily. No deal will be rejected even more heavily today. A second referendum would probably be rejected less heavily, if still significantly. Revocation and remaining would also be rejected heavily.
A soft Brexit Labour type deal would be rejected narrowly - and might even pass with other options already ruled out. And the EU has already hinted it would be acceptable.
It's where a sensible PM would have started from, two years back. Only the humiliation of seeing the opposition's plan voted through and two years of Tory effort going down the toilet stops May from embracing it.
i'm f**king done with the tories. If they continue to run towards this cliff edge, then they deserve everything coming to them, including a Corbyn government.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
Conversely a Leaver would have to be a special kind of dim not to have foreseen precisely this outcome. Whatever the outcome will be of course.
I foresaw a smooth movement to EEA, a reversion to common market trade agreement with common standards. And a government creating the infrastructure to properly introduce the entirely legal free movement of labour rules that exist and have not been used. The EU would be fairly cooperative of something that kept us within their sphere influence.
There would need to be a customs agreement, that might take a bit longer, but that’s what a time period is for. I didn’t realise the utter madness that was the PMs redlines would become an article of faith.
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
It can't just be "cancelled". That would be a surefire way to totally fuck the country.
Given we are already FUBAR, you might argue that there's nothing left to lose. Brexit was on the table – those who wanted it keep voting against it. We are a parliamentary democracy. What other option is there but to revoke until we work out what the hell is going on?
It should spook them because of the reaction of the electorate. You know, the people who vote in elections. Food prices will rise is not a vote winner. Still, some inflation will harm those on fixed incomes. The retired voted for it, they can enjoy it.
£1500 on a new VW Golf...
That should put the frighteners on some.
Why would I need a Golf when I'm getting a free Unicorn?
It's a small sample, but what do you expect just hours after the vote ? It certainly beats the vox pops on the news programs.
The electorate seems to have no more clue than does parliament: In terms of what the prime minister should do after that, the country remains as divided as ever. Just under a third — 29 percent — want the PM to come out for a second referendum, while a quarter — 25 percent — want her to come out for no deal. Overall 35 percent still want some form of negotiated deal, even if that means with Labour support.
When asked about future options, 38 percent said they favored remaining in the EU. When this question was asked in a POLITICO-Hanbury poll in February, 31.5 percent said they wanted to retain EU membership....
i'm f**king done with the tories. If they continue to run towards this cliff edge, then they deserve everything coming to them, including a Corbyn government.
Leave voters need to accept their share of responsibility for where the country now is. They leapt before they looked.
Today's and tomorrows votes are all about giving the virtue signalling numpties in parly something to virtue signal about "oooh I voted against/for no deal then tweeted about it".
They have forgotten how to lead and govern.
Mr Malthouse at least seems to have worked out a plan - whether you like it or not at least it has some detail.
The rest are just thrashing around suggesting can kicking or referendums with loaded questions which would leave the country ungovernable afterwards.
We need to choose better politicians and hammer them at the ballot box when they fail to deliver. Some good may come of this.
Who & where are those better politicians of whom you speak?
Your bestie Tessa Maybot is an absolutely awful PM, but has the advantage of being slightly less awful than the leagues of comedians, quarterwits, bigots and dullards who have ambitions to her throne.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
Conversely a Leaver would have to be a special kind of dim not to have foreseen precisely this outcome. Whatever the outcome will be of course.
I foresaw a smooth movement to EEA, a reversion to common market trade agreement with common standards. And a government creating the infrastructure to properly introduce the entirely legal free movement of labour rules that exist and have not been used. The EU would be fairly cooperative of something that kept us within their sphere influence.
There would need to be a customs agreement, that might take a bit longer, but that’s what a time period is for. I didn’t realise the utter madness that was the PMs redlines would become an article of faith.
I realise that panic is the current zeitgeist but it is worth pausing to note that no deal isn't very good for the EU either. For all this morning's protestations, there is going to be a powerful impetus towards agreeing an extension if one is sought.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
Conversely a Leaver would have to be a special kind of dim not to have foreseen precisely this outcome. Whatever the outcome will be of course.
I foresaw a smooth movement to EEA, a reversion to common market trade agreement with common standards. And a government creating the infrastructure to properly introduce the entirely legal free movement of labour rules that exist and have not been used. The EU would be fairly cooperative of something that kept us within their sphere influence.
There would need to be a customs agreement, that might take a bit longer, but that’s what a time period is for. I didn’t realise the utter madness that was the PMs redlines would become an article of faith.
Touching.
But not a keen student of politics though.
I was when I graduated in Politics twenty plus years ago. Maybe my mind is rotting.
If Parliament has voted against leaving with a deal and votes today against leaving without a deal, then logically it is saying that it wants to Remain.
There is no other choice. There is no other deal on the table.
So it has to revoke Article 50 or seek a long enough extension to allow a referendum to be held to let us make a decision. But since Parliament doesn’t seem able or willing to enact the decisions made by referenda, then the only thing left to do, given how little time there is left, is to revoke while we work out what we do want to do.
But I fear that through panic and incompetence and stupidity we will end up exiting in chaos. Those hard right Tory MPs who think this will benefit their style of politics do not seem to realise that this makes a hard Left government increaingly likely and will be the first to be crying out for the protections that EU membership gave us.
It is very depressing and very sad.
Whatever happens we have done a great deal of harm to our reputation as a stable sensible country.
People are getting overblown on this. We are still stable we are just having a period of very fraught politics, as many nations do from time to time, even very stable ones. It's a crisis but people do no favours in pretending very intense and difficult political issues are in themselves a sign of the end times.
Today's and tomorrows votes are all about giving the virtue signalling numpties in parly something to virtue signal about "oooh I voted against/for no deal then tweeted about it".
They have forgotten how to lead and govern.
Mr Malthouse at least seems to have worked out a plan - whether you like it or not at least it has some detail.
The rest are just thrashing around suggesting can kicking or referendums with loaded questions which would leave the country ungovernable afterwards.
We need to choose better politicians and hammer them at the ballot box when they fail to deliver. Some good may come of this.
Who & where are those better politicians of whom you speak?
TUD, they will parachute in their crack regional sub office teams, they are brimming with talent. Ruth the Mooth will sort it out along with her little Labour helpers top talent assisting assisting
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
Conversely a Leaver would have to be a special kind of dim not to have foreseen precisely this outcome. Whatever the outcome will be of course.
I foresaw a smooth movement to EEA, a reversion to common market trade agreement with common standards. And a government creating the infrastructure to properly introduce the entirely legal free movement of labour rules that exist and have not been used. The EU would be fairly cooperative of something that kept us within their sphere influence.
There would need to be a customs agreement, that might take a bit longer, but that’s what a time period is for. I didn’t realise the utter madness that was the PMs redlines would become an article of faith.
Thank you for finally confirming that you are delusional.
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
It can't just be "cancelled". That would be a surefire way to totally fuck the country.
You think it can get any more "Fcuked" up?
I am not certain that MPs can control anything anymore, even their bowels.
This is what Take Back Control looks like in practice.
With the country this divided over the next step to the point of paralysis, it doesn't bode well for coherent plans afterwards, whether in or out.
A 21 month Bextension, with a GE this summer is probably the best option. Even for WTO leave there needs to be time to prepare.
Perhaps kicking the politicians in the nuts in 2016 has not had a positive effect on national prospects after all.
I don't see such a long extension as being realistic. The EU doesn't want it, and nether, apparently, does our electorate. From the poll cited above:
There is also support for an extension of the Article 50 negotiating period with 44 percent in favor and 39 percent against. This support drains away, however, the longer the proposed extension. The public clearly finds an extension of one month acceptable — 52 percent to 34 percent in favor. Support for a three-month delay is wafer thin: 44 percent to 43 percent....
i'm f**king done with the tories. If they continue to run towards this cliff edge, then they deserve everything coming to them, including a Corbyn government.
They're not even running to the cliff edge, just stumbling drunkenly over it because they dont like the way the grass was cut near the cliff edge
Comments
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1105748562527354886
I wonder why they picked on buses?
Maybe in all this chaos someone has a sense of humour.....
But don't worry it's going to be cancelled shortly.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47549422
So, as far as I can tell:
- they had a referendum, and the people got the answer "wrong";
- so they had another one, and the people got the answer even wronger;
- at the same time, a separate referendum resulted in the people voting to actually move in the opposite direction to the one preferred by the State Governor;
- so obviously, the Governor in question is unilaterally trying to implement his original plan anyway.
At least it's only life and death, and not something really important, like Brexit.
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1105757995579908098?s=21
But if I may: the problems are the laxness of the tests and the people doing the testing. IIRC, this was discovered when someone doing testing - and with their own emissions kit - realised that the real-world emissions from driving on the road were massively different from those reported. Not just a little different; massively different.
There's nothing stopping an independent test body doing similar tests. Get them to buy a brand-new car from a dealer's showroom (not one provided by the manufacturer), and then test it thoroughly and fairly. Then let the manufacturers argue if they dislike the results.
The current system is far too cosy to the manufacturers. And hence we get back to the FAA and Boeing.
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/744138949384278016?s=21
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
https://www.politico.eu/article/poll-half-of-uk-voters-want-theresa-may-to-resign/
Doing that, then opposing May's deal *and* opposing no deal is completely irrational. Or cowardly. Either way, it's bloody stupid. If you don't want us to leave, fine, but voting to start the process then rejecting any sort of leaving is worthy of contempt, and comment.
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1105757295437336577
There is no other choice. There is no other deal on the table.
So it has to revoke Article 50 or seek a long enough extension to allow a referendum to be held to let us make a decision. But since Parliament doesn’t seem able or willing to enact the decisions made by referenda, then the only thing left to do, given how little time there is left, is to revoke while we work out what we do want to do.
But I fear that through panic and incompetence and stupidity we will end up exiting in chaos. Those hard right Tory MPs who think this will benefit their style of politics do not seem to realise that this makes a hard Left government increaingly likely and will be the first to be crying out for the protections that EU membership gave us.
It is very depressing and very sad.
Whatever happens we have done a great deal of harm to our reputation as a stable sensible country.
They have always wanted to remain. They just lied to get elected. Today will see more virtue signalling. It’s tiresome. They should just order the PM to revoke and have done with this democracy nonsense once and for all.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
I mean, don’t they actively have to vote FOR an alternative - the Deal, Revoke, etc - to rule out No Deal? Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this has been explained upthread but it’s a total pain wading through Vanilla threads.
You think it can get any more "Fcuked" up?
Yes, Malc, it can still get a lot, lot worse. If that bunch of tossers in Westminster just say "fuck it, it's cancelled" because they are too stupid to make things work, then we are really down the rabbit hole.
It will be the UK's problem while any retaliation against NI Catholics will be condemned vigorously. All the while pressure for a united Ireland will mount.
Could the madmen in the ERG branch of the Conservative and Unionist Party have played this any worse?
Whether there is now time to do that and then implement it is another matter - and probably subject to the co-operation of the EU members.
Anything else requires the EU to agree and they may not or impose unacceptable conditions.
It provides air cover for things to come.
There is a lot of merit in the argument that with the country split down the middle on EU membership that we need a close relationship with the EU, whilst no longer remaining a member. The advocates for the two extremes — Remain and pretend that settles the issue, or crash-out WTO advocates — are both playing with fire, even if they don't realise it.
I do know that Westminster is in a very precarious position. They have never been more hated than they are at this moment. The whole place looks like a nest of vipers. That isn't good for democracy in this country and will lead to some very unpleasant results at the ballot box come the GE that must surely be coming like a train towards us. A second referendum might take some of the toxicity out of the atmosphere, whereas a straight up revocation would intensify it.
It also reduces the number of remaining options and therefore pushes others up the list.
She's still hoping to force her deal through rather than pivoting to an alternative though.
They have forgotten how to lead and govern.
Mr Malthouse at least seems to have worked out a plan - whether you like it or not at least it has some detail.
The rest are just thrashing around suggesting can kicking or referendums with loaded questions which would leave the country ungovernable afterwards.
We need to choose better politicians and hammer them at the ballot box when they fail to deliver. Some good may come of this.
It also has the crucial advantage that our laws will be made by actual grown-ups in Brussels rather than overgrown toddlers in Westminster.
I am not certain that MPs can control anything anymore, even their bowels.
This is what Take Back Control looks like in practice.
With the country this divided over the next step to the point of paralysis, it doesn't bode well for coherent plans afterwards, whether in or out.
A 21 month Bextension, with a GE this summer is probably the best option. Even for WTO leave there needs to be time to prepare.
Perhaps kicking the politicians in the nuts in 2016 has not had a positive effect on national prospects after all.
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1105747816457080832
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1105748101577539584
I do agree they may well be as stupid as that.
May's deal has been rejected heavily. No deal will be rejected even more heavily today. A second referendum would probably be rejected less heavily, if still significantly. Revocation and remaining would also be rejected heavily.
A soft Brexit Labour type deal would be rejected narrowly - and might even pass with other options already ruled out. And the EU has already hinted it would be acceptable.
It's where a sensible PM would have started from, two years back. Only the humiliation of seeing the opposition's plan voted through and two years of Tory effort going down the toilet stops May from embracing it.
There would need to be a customs agreement, that might take a bit longer, but that’s what a time period is for. I didn’t realise the utter madness that was the PMs redlines would become an article of faith.
It certainly beats the vox pops on the news programs.
The electorate seems to have no more clue than does parliament:
In terms of what the prime minister should do after that, the country remains as divided as ever. Just under a third — 29 percent — want the PM to come out for a second referendum, while a quarter — 25 percent — want her to come out for no deal. Overall 35 percent still want some form of negotiated deal, even if that means with Labour support.
When asked about future options, 38 percent said they favored remaining in the EU. When this question was asked in a POLITICO-Hanbury poll in February, 31.5 percent said they wanted to retain EU membership....
But not a keen student of politics though.
This is what Take Back Control looks like in practice.
With the country this divided over the next step to the point of paralysis, it doesn't bode well for coherent plans afterwards, whether in or out.
A 21 month Bextension, with a GE this summer is probably the best option. Even for WTO leave there needs to be time to prepare.
Perhaps kicking the politicians in the nuts in 2016 has not had a positive effect on national prospects after all.
So we'll take part in the 2019 EU elections?
That may have the unexpected result that it reduces UKIP and Tory representation in England and Wales and increases votes for other parties.
Revoke now
Re-referend
Seek a different deal
Parliament is going to need to choose a course of action pronto.
assisting
There is also support for an extension of the Article 50 negotiating period with 44 percent in favor and 39 percent against. This support drains away, however, the longer the proposed extension. The public clearly finds an extension of one month acceptable — 52 percent to 34 percent in favor. Support for a three-month delay is wafer thin: 44 percent to 43 percent....