Let us not forget that first we see how long an extension the Commons will amend the motion tomorrow for, and second, why would MPs like Clarke vote for the deal a third time even if Bercow lets them?
I refuse to believe that the ERG - even the ERG - are going to be so moronically stupid as to turn down a third opportunity to secure Brexit.
They shouldn't be given the chance. She's had two attempts. That's it. Time for a new deal that commands cross party support.
I keep hearing this 'new deal' but the EU has said they are done, there's no other unicorn deals out there ..... wishing for one doesn't butter the parsnips.
I still can't see how it will pass - DUP aren't going to change their minds, some ERG hard liners will choose to stick as well. Mogg will vote against as I cannot see how revoke - the only remaining option at that point - will get a majority or how having done so it could be implemented whilst May remains PM
It's going to be no deal. At which point we're fucked in every way possible - economic chaos combined with the simultaneous tearing asunder of both main parties
Even revoke is more likely than No Deal tonight
I agree
Revoke is why Labour MPs will not back the deal. They will maintain that revoke is within their grasp - just as no deal within ERG grasp is why they also won't back the deal. Nor will May going in April happen.
So let's think this through. In the unlikely event that the Commons passes a motion that the government should revoke. They still won't do it. And enough Tory MPs will shield May from the pressure / motion of contempt / motion of no confidence to stop revoke happening
I'm nearly 46, and for the first time in my life I'm seriously embarrassed by my nation. The rest of the world must be looking at us and thinking: "What the f**k are they doing," and "What a load of clueless f**kwits."
Everyone says what they're against, what they hate, and too few people saying what they're for. Idealism and opportunism trumps compromise and realism.
We couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and the world knows it because they can see us in the brewery pissing into the vats, failing to tap the barrels and holding glasses upside down whilst we wonder why they won't hold any liquid.
Expel the entirety of the ERG from the party and call an election. Simple. Tell them to beg Farage for a seat to run and lose in. Pompous bunch of fantasist twats
Great strategy except for the views of the Tories' white pensioner membership.
Much like the labour racism enablers 'staying to fight' the Tory pompous patrician scumbag enablers need to decide if they are wedded to a party or a set of ideals and act accordingly
I refuse to believe that the ERG - even the ERG - are going to be so moronically stupid as to turn down a third opportunity to secure Brexit.
They shouldn't be given the chance. She's had two attempts. That's it. Time for a new deal that commands cross party support.
I keep hearing this 'new deal' but the EU has said they are done, there's no other unicorn deals out there ..... wishing for one doesn't butter the parsnips.
Indeed, and the deal on the table isn't all that bad.
I’m not shy of criticising May’s political skills and leadership style but I’m getting a little bit tired of this.
She’s the only one who’s worked night and day to try and bring a deal about, and hasn’t given up or moved on trying to deliver on the Brexit mandate regardless of the obstacles or difficulties. And she’s had to put up with a remarkable amount of shit (from everyone) to do this when hardly anyone (perhaps no one) has had any better ideas to how to execute it.
She’s earned my respect for her tenacity, determination and sense of duty if nothing else. So, no, I won’t dump it all on her.
It most certainly is not all TM fault.
I agree with your comments and put this mess at the door of the 498 mps who voted to invoke A50 with a default no deal outcome
I'm no Conservative but I respect her diligence, her integrity and recognise her earnest desire to do the best (as she sees it) for Party and country.
As for "blame", yes, there's plenty to go round but I start with May failing to include and accept voices from outside her Party and Government. Leaving the EU is a national project and required a range of skills, expertise and opinion from across the political spectrum but instead she secreted the whole process within the Conservative Party and spent her spare time making jibes at Labour and talking about "uniting the country".
As for the nonsense about the 498 MPs and A50, the No Deal outcome isn't our default, it's within A50 itself - you can argue the 24 month time limit is absurd and that's valid but the fact of leaving without a Deal or an agreed extension is within the A50 process. We couldn't have invalidated the No Deal option - could we have prepared better?
If the EU won't grant an extension, then even if MV3 passes, there still needs to be
If MV3 passes, a short extension would suddenly be no problem at all. They're hardly going to send us all into a crash no-deal mess for want of 2 months, when it's fully agreed.
Also remember that the day after a theoretical MV3 (on the same deal) passes the Commons, the DUP will vote against the government in a vote of confidence.
AFAICS it is not within Parliament's power to ban 'no deal'. Unless the EU allow an extension (whatever for) don't we leave in a couple of weeks? Brexit derangement syndrome.
If the EU won't grant an extension, then even if MV3 passes, there still needs to be
If MV3 passes, a short extension would suddenly be no problem at all. They're hardly going to send us all into a crash no-deal mess for want of 2 months, when it's fully agreed.
Also remember that the day after a theoretical MV3 (on the same deal) passes the Commons, the DUP will vote against the government in a vote of confidence.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few Labour MPs forgot to vote that day.
They will not want an election against a Tory party that has finally passed a deal vs Jez who is looking a lot more tired than he did in 2017.
IMO, MPs should table an amendment to tomorrow's vote saying the exact wording of May's letter requesting an extension of Article 50 has to be approved in a Commons vote before she sends it.
On today's evidence, I really wouldn't trust her not to try to wriggle her way out of a commitment to request an extension if she's given any room to do so.
And somebody deal with jew baiter Corbyn. He's a bigger embarrassment than May
Tone it down a notch comrade
I'm in an exceptionally bad mood tonight, Corbyn has gotten off far too lightly. But yeah, raging will solve nothing. It really is time for a reshaping of the political scene. Now is the time!
I still can't see how it will pass - DUP aren't going to change their minds, some ERG hard liners will choose to stick as well. Mogg will vote against as I cannot see how revoke - the only remaining option at that point - will get a majority or how having done so it could be implemented whilst May remains PM
It's going to be no deal. At which point we're fucked in every way possible - economic chaos combined with the simultaneous tearing asunder of both main parties
Even revoke is more likely than No Deal tonight
I agree
I said last night surely a vote on whether to revoke article 50 was a logical outcome of the path we seem set on...
I still can't see how it will pass - DUP aren't going to change their minds, some ERG hard liners will choose to stick as well. Mogg will vote against as I cannot see how revoke - the only remaining option at that point - will get a majority or how having done so it could be implemented whilst May remains PM
It's going to be no deal. At which point we're fucked in every way possible - economic chaos combined with the simultaneous tearing asunder of both main parties
Even revoke is more likely than No Deal tonight
I agree
Revoke is why Labour MPs will not back the deal. They will maintain that revoke is within their grasp - just as no deal within ERG grasp is why they also won't back the deal. Nor will May going in April happen.
So let's think this through. In the unlikely event that the Commons passes a motion that the government should revoke. They still won't do it. And enough Tory MPs will shield May from the pressure / motion of contempt / motion of no confidence to stop revoke happening
IMO, MPs should table an amendment to tomorrow's vote saying the exact wording of May's letter requesting an extension of Article 50 has to be approved in a Commons vote before she sends it.
I don't think there'll be a letter. She'll do it in person at the European Council meeting next weekend.
AFAICS it is not within Parliament's power to ban 'no deal'. Unless the EU allow an extension (whatever for) don't we leave in a couple of weeks? Brexit derangement syndrome.
A50 withdrawal doesn't require EU consent, extension does.
ERG Baker committing to vote MV3 down in Parliament.
Eurosceptic Retard Group?
I think there’s some basic human psychology going on here too.
It’s very hard for a person to break with their close knit peer group which has banded together through thick and thin, and you’ve shared your innermost thoughts and fears and prejudices with. No-one likes to do it.
Nevertheless, they are paid to think for themselves and not be led by others or fear of what others may think of them.
I’m not shy of criticising May’s political skills and leadership style but I’m getting a little bit tired of this.
She’s the only one who’s worked night and day to try and bring a deal about, and hasn’t given up or moved on trying to deliver on the Brexit mandate regardless of the obstacles or difficulties. And she’s had to put up with a remarkable amount of shit (from everyone) to do this when hardly anyone (perhaps no one) has had any better ideas to how to execute it.
She’s earned my respect for her tenacity, determination and sense of duty if nothing else. So, no, I won’t dump it all on her.
I don't blame May for Brexit turning out broadly as I expected it to, with a major political crisis.
Yes, but you’re only a slightly more subtle William Glenn.
May has laid out a practical exit route and a fair deal that I’m more than comfortable with.
The prats in the ERG would have given their right arms for this five years ago.
I should also have said, I was expecting Brexit to pass more easily and the major crisis to happen afterwards. But the issues are the same and they won't go away, nor will the crisis, even if May's Deal does pass
For those of you gloating at these MP Votes you should hang your head in shame. You just do not believe in democracy, The Parliament is an embarrasssment to the Country and this period of time will be looked on in Politicians disgrace. Its like a banana republic coup d'etat, so sad
I'm nearly 46, and for the first time in my life I'm seriously embarrassed by my nation. The rest of the world must be looking at us and thinking: "What the f**k are they doing," and "What a load of clueless f**kwits."
As many times as I read this I never cease to be baffled by this attitude. I wouldn't expect another nation to be embarrassed because it has clueless politicians and what I might think are stupid political arguments.
Another possibility: some ERG members deciding to support a 2nd referendum in preference to voting for a deal they don't support. That would put them in the same camp as a lot of Labour MPs, and would be yet another unexpected alliance.
IMO, MPs should table an amendment to tomorrow's vote saying the exact wording of May's letter requesting an extension of Article 50 has to be approved in a Commons vote before she sends it.
You even seen even 10 people argue line by line over a document? They'd never agree the wording of a letter with that many involved.
ERG Baker committing to vote MV3 down in Parliament.
Tw@
So is Francois... bellend..
So fortunate to have such an array of talent to admire.
Wasn’t Francois a Shadow Europe spokesman back in the day? You get the impression that it’s personal with him. He looks like he’s gonna stick the head on someone. I wonder if there was an incident during his EU years that bred a seething hatred in him?
If we only have a short extension and Parliament wants to avoid no deal then that still only leaves May's deal, so Parliament need to be minded to back a longer extension.
I refuse to believe that the ERG - even the ERG - are going to be so moronically stupid as to turn down a third opportunity to secure Brexit.
I know some of these people. Some will fold, but enough won't.
I don't understand how they don't see the remain pincer movement coming. How have we managed to get a bunch of thickos as MPs?!
We don’t pay our politicians money commensurate with their responsibilities, and we make their personal lives dreadful. Governing Britain today is positively tedious compared with any other time in the last 300 years. No wonder we have more gadflies and fools than statesmen.
1 - Vote on No Deal, phrasing it that the only way to secure Brexit in time is to leave with a Deal and imply that a "No" to No Deal means Deal or no Brexit. Have it go down big. 2 - Vote on extend-and-revoke and extend-and-referendum. Have them go down. 3 - Revive the Deal yet again and go for MV3, claiming the House has rejected literally everything else.
Pitfalls: The House may amend one of the above to something else (to what, though?). It may vote "All right, yes then" to one of them (Which one? Only the first vote is a free one; with a 3-line whip, is there a majority in the House for a 2nd ref or revocation?). There may be a VoNC that's won by the Opposition (Do enough MPs want to take the chance of a Corbyn government or for No Deal to occur while the 2 week period is running?). All the fannying about may result in the clock running out with no decision and No Deal by default
And she ran into the first pitfall, which was that the House amended the No Deal vote by simply deleting the bit that implied a "No" to No Deal means Deal or no Brexit.
Which has put the rest of her plan into some jeopardy. She will, however, doubtless continue without significant change and try to have extend-and-revoke and extend-and-referendum go down.
I'm nearly 46, and for the first time in my life I'm seriously embarrassed by my nation. The rest of the world must be looking at us and thinking: "What the f**k are they doing," and "What a load of clueless f**kwits."
Everyone says what they're against, what they hate, and too few people saying what they're for. Idealism and opportunism trumps compromise and realism.
We couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and the world knows it because they can see us in the brewery pissing into the vats, failing to tap the barrels and holding glasses upside down whilst we wonder why they won't hold any liquid.
I bet there are a lot of intelligent people living around the world in less polished democracies than ours wishing they lived under such a virile, functioning legislature. Better this than the ram-roading of the Blair years.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
You think a general election platform of "Brexit all over again" will be a winner?
1 - Vote on No Deal, phrasing it that the only way to secure Brexit in time is to leave with a Deal and imply that a "No" to No Deal means Deal or no Brexit. Have it go down big. 2 - Vote on extend-and-revoke and extend-and-referendum. Have them go down. 3 - Revive the Deal yet again and go for MV3, claiming the House has rejected literally everything else.
Pitfalls: The House may amend one of the above to something else (to what, though?). It may vote "All right, yes then" to one of them (Which one? Only the first vote is a free one; with a 3-line whip, is there a majority in the House for a 2nd ref or revocation?). There may be a VoNC that's won by the Opposition (Do enough MPs want to take the chance of a Corbyn government or for No Deal to occur while the 2 week period is running?). All the fannying about may result in the clock running out with no decision and No Deal by default
And she ran into the first pitfall, which was that the House amended the No Deal vote by simply deleting the bit that implied a "No" to No Deal means Deal or no Brexit.
Which has put the rest of her plan into some jeopardy. She will, however, doubtless continue without significant change and try to have extend-and-revoke and extend-and-referendum go down.
Except that extend will go through. The question, as tonight, will be whether the government retains its weasel wording or whether Parliament forces through some copy editing.
Why would any Remainer Tory vote for MV3 now that no deal is off the table?
The Deal is Dead.
Well, no deal is not legally off the table yet, so there's still some risk, but indeed, and several gave indications of such as well. Assuming all those who backed MV2 would do the same for MV3 is brave.
I refuse to believe that the ERG - even the ERG - are going to be so moronically stupid as to turn down a third opportunity to secure Brexit.
I know some of these people. Some will fold, but enough won't.
I don't understand how they don't see the remain pincer movement coming. How have we managed to get a bunch of thickos as MPs?!
We don’t pay our politicians money commensurate with their responsibilities, and we make their personal lives dreadful. Governing Britain today is positively tedious compared with any other time in the last 300 years. No wonder we have more gadflies and fools than statesmen.
I love your post.
I couldn't be an MP for the reasons you say....there are easier and less tedious ways of making much better money. And if you want some sense self worth afforded by public duty..do what I have just done and return to being a social worker (or priest)
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
Those same people will be Just As Outraged if the deal passes and we leave the EU. As we won't have left the EU. Apparently
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
You think a general election platform of "Brexit all over again" will be a winner?
I think a platform of Brexit on day one, no negotiation, no deal, no payment no need for referendum, deliver the Brexit you voted for as a direct appeal to the 17.4 million would attract massive support if Brexit is revoked.
Say we get a third MV and most but not all ERG back May's deal. At what point do they have the moral high ground if it still loses (and would have still lost even with all Brexiteers onside)? Would it need there to be fewer Brexit rebels than remain rebels?
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
Those same people will be Just As Outraged if the deal passes and we leave the EU. As we won't have left the EU. Apparently
Exactly. We are fast approaching the choice between: a) unhappy leavers; everyone else's life goes on, or b) unhappy leavers; real damage to our country's economy and reputation.
I refuse to believe that the ERG - even the ERG - are going to be so moronically stupid as to turn down a third opportunity to secure Brexit.
Why would you refuse to believe that with all the evidence that’s available and in front of you?
I don't know! It just doesn't compute. This. Is. What. They. Want. Why don't they want it?
It does compute to me, funnily enough as a Remainer. I voted Remain because I thought EU membership was the best for the country. But the vote went the other way, and maybe I can accept the result, get with the programme. Yes Britain will be damaged by Brexit, but I didn't vote for it. Seeking to limit that damage is a worthwhile endeavour to me.
If you are a Leaver, you didn't vote for damage limitation. You voted to make things better. All the practical downsides either don't exist, have nothing to do with Brexit, or are somebody else's fault. So why should you leave an organisation, where you have a say to one where that organisation simply tells what to do and you have no say? That wasn't what you voted for.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
You think a general election platform of "Brexit all over again" will be a winner?
I think a platform of Brexit on day one, no negotiation, no deal, no payment no need for referendum, deliver the Brexit you voted for as a direct appeal to the 17.4 million would attract massive support if Brexit is revoked.
It's not possible. The Article 50 period is two years, so the quickest you can get to No Deal is two years.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
Those same people will be Just As Outraged if the deal passes and we leave the EU. As we won't have left the EU. Apparently
Not to the same extent and the dynamic is totally different, but there's certainly a risk of nationalism on the rise regardless, politicians are trying very hard to completely break trust with voters
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
If we end up taking part in the EU elections, there’s sadly a pretty good chance of ‘Tommy Robinson’ and a couple of his friends ending up as MEPs.
Right now, there’s 350 or so MPs who want to revoke A50, but without their own fingerprints appearing on the decision.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
lol - That is quite funny! FPTP and the usual snags that trip up parties from challenging the established parties will stop that fantasy!
I'm nearly 46, and for the first time in my life I'm seriously embarrassed by my nation. The rest of the world must be looking at us and thinking: "What the f**k are they doing," and "What a load of clueless f**kwits."
Everyone says what they're against, what they hate, and too few people saying what they're for. Idealism and opportunism trumps compromise and realism.
We couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and the world knows it because they can see us in the brewery pissing into the vats, failing to tap the barrels and holding glasses upside down whilst we wonder why they won't hold any liquid.
I bet there are a lot of intelligent people living around the world in less polished democracies than ours wishing they lived under such a virile, functioning legislature. Better this than the ram-roading of the Blair years.
No. Just no.
There is plenty of reasons to criticise Blair's governments - just as there are any government - reasonably or unreasonably. But it generally functioned. Yes, there were problems: Iraq, obviously, and the spending.
But we currently have a government that is paralysed - Brexit is the parasitic wasp and the government the helpless cockroach. It's a zombie legislature. There's stuff the government needs to be doing and it isn't doing them, because Brexit consumes everything.
Worse, there's no obvious way out of this mess, even in the medium term. Even if May;s deal passes, we've got years of negotiating ahead. And we're not proving good at that, even amongst ourselves.
How can we sell ourselves around the world as the serious, helpful friend we want to be when all they see are a bunch of clowns in a boxing ring kicking each other in the knackers?
I refuse to believe that the ERG - even the ERG - are going to be so moronically stupid as to turn down a third opportunity to secure Brexit.
I know some of these people. Some will fold, but enough won't.
I don't understand how they don't see the remain pincer movement coming. How have we managed to get a bunch of thickos as MPs?!
We don’t pay our politicians money commensurate with their responsibilities, and we make their personal lives dreadful. Governing Britain today is positively tedious compared with any other time in the last 300 years. No wonder we have more gadflies and fools than statesmen.
Err surely, to take a rather obvious example from tonight Stephen Clarke who is being paid £75k a year should have been capable of the sort of stonkingly obvious foresight he lackwittedly realised this evening he messed up on ?
I'm getting very confused - how did the Spelman vote do that?
Had Spelman not passed then there would not have been a whip so they'd have been free to vote against No Deal. Instead, it was whipped and the likes of Rudd had to go against the government.
And given the way the original motion was worded, May would have been free to ignore it and carry on as before. If we are to have any chance of avoiding No Deal by filibuster, the salutary shock was necessary - and it’s not exactly Cooper’s responsibility to hold the Tories together.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
You think a general election platform of "Brexit all over again" will be a winner?
I think a platform of Brexit on day one, no negotiation, no deal, no payment no need for referendum, deliver the Brexit you voted for as a direct appeal to the 17.4 million would attract massive support if Brexit is revoked.
Yep. Conseravtives will collapse across the country.
Labour... I'm not so sure what the northern heartlands would do. I could see Farage becoming LOTO to a Corbyn government with Con under 100 MPs.
The EU likes its deal because …. (1) We stay in and continue to pay (2) They assume and hope that after ten years, we'll become used to this and lose the will to fight anymore (3) It takes pressure off them with other recalcitrant members.
ERG dislike the deal because of those three factors and because we are dependent on the EU acting in good faith. They don't believe it will.
I have sympathy with ERG but I'd go along with this deal because I suspect the EU will quickly revert to its usual MO. It will continue its advance to a true European union, and probably at a faster speed. We'll be forced to grin and bear it or summon the courage to finally leave.
I think the latter will happen. It will however take time, and the wound inflicted on democracy will take much longer to heal.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
If the idiots had in fact done so in GE2017, May would have a majority of 200 and Brexit would have been done and dusted a long time ago. But they didn't.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
If we end up taking part in the EU elections, there’s sadly a pretty good chance of ‘Tommy Robinson’ and a couple of his friends ending up as MEPs.
Right now, there’s 350 or so MPs who want to revoke A50, but without their own fingerprints appearing on the decision.
The BNP had two MEPs not so long ago! So extremists doing well under PR is nothing new. At a Westminster level under FPTP I am confident that the system will break any Brexit party or Tommy Robinson. Once revoke A50 has been implemented and the dust settles I think people will focus on other issues if not just for the reason of boredom! People are fickle.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
If we end up taking part in the EU elections, there’s sadly a pretty good chance of ‘Tommy Robinson’ and a couple of his friends ending up as MEPs.
Right now, there’s 350 or so MPs who want to revoke A50, but without their own fingerprints appearing on the decision.
The BNP had two MEPs not so long ago! So extremists doing well under PR is nothing new. At a Westminster level under FPTP I am confident that the system will break any Brexit party or Tommy Robinson. Once revoke A50 has been implemented and the dust settles I think people will focus on other issues if not just for the reason of boredom! People are fickle.
Indeed they did, the odious Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons. I think the precedent for a Westminster election is what happened in 2015 in Scotland - but with added sense of betrayal and anger at the established parties.
Wow Ministers including 4 Cabinet - Rudd, Perry, Stephen Hammond, Buckland, Clark, Mundell, Ellwood, Gauke, Richard Harrington, Burt, James, Milton - all abstained on the main motion
I confess I cannot think of the last time the Chancellor of the Exchequer defied a three line whip. Possibly Ritchie in 1903?
It's not the COE.
OK, That's bad, but not as bad as I thought.
If he turns on her, she really is finished.
He just told her to speak to Jezza and get another Deal (#CCU)
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
You think a general election platform of "Brexit all over again" will be a winner?
I think a platform of Brexit on day one, no negotiation, no deal, no payment no need for referendum, deliver the Brexit you voted for as a direct appeal to the 17.4 million would attract massive support if Brexit is revoked.
Yep. Conseravtives will collapse across the country.
Labour... I'm not so sure what the northern heartlands would do. I could see Farage becoming LOTO to a Corbyn government with Con under 100 MPs.
The existing parties in Westmnster will own every single bad thing that happens in the country going forward. Farage can suck air through teeth and say "Wouldn't have happened if we had stood up to the EU and planned for No Deal and left...." I fucking hate Farage, but the gurning twat will have a huge reinvigoration if our existing political class decide to can Brexit.
I certainly won't enjoy his rise, but I will take a grim satisfaction at the raft of political careers cut short.
Wow Ministers including 4 Cabinet - Rudd, Perry, Stephen Hammond, Buckland, Clark, Mundell, Ellwood, Gauke, Richard Harrington, Burt, James, Milton - all abstained on the main motion
I confess I cannot think of the last time the Chancellor of the Exchequer defied a three line whip. Possibly Ritchie in 1903?
It's not the COE.
OK, That's bad, but not as bad as I thought.
If he turns on her, she really is finished.
He just told her to speak to Jezza and get another Deal (#CCU)
I gather a Whip defied the 3 line whip.
I thought abstention can be forgiven
From a whip?! You can't trust someone to do that job if he won't even follow the whip himself I'd think.
The forces that will be unleashed if we revoke won't go back in the bottle. PM Farsge taking us out acrimoniously and damaging the EU in the process is not out of the question. 17.4 million will vote to see their will imposed and a party offering Brexit without referendum and without a deal immediately will gather them in.
If we end up taking part in the EU elections, there’s sadly a pretty good chance of ‘Tommy Robinson’ and a couple of his friends ending up as MEPs.
Right now, there’s 350 or so MPs who want to revoke A50, but without their own fingerprints appearing on the decision.
The BNP had two MEPs not so long ago! So extremists doing well under PR is nothing new. At a Westminster level under FPTP I am confident that the system will break any Brexit party or Tommy Robinson. Once revoke A50 has been implemented and the dust settles I think people will focus on other issues if not just for the reason of boredom! People are fickle.
Indeed they did, the odious Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons. I think the precedent for a Westminster election is what happened in 2015 in Scotland - but with added sense of betrayal and anger at the established parties.
Farage is not a new leader though, it has to be remembered that Sturgeon was in a honeymoon period as FM. The dynamics are very different for Farage who will be starting from scratch. He might have some members and some voters but the whole thing has a glass ceiling on it. A vocal few Brexiteers should not be confused with a mass movement. Brexit will fail because it cannot deliver the promise without significant costs. I am surprised that Brexiteers have not been pinned down and relentlessly pounded into submission as their vision has turned out to be a nightmare!
I'm nearly 46, and for the first time in my life I'm seriously embarrassed by my nation. The rest of the world must be looking at us and thinking: "What the f**k are they doing," and "What a load of clueless f**kwits."
Everyone says what they're against, what they hate, and too few people saying what they're for. Idealism and opportunism trumps compromise and realism.
We couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and the world knows it because they can see us in the brewery pissing into the vats, failing to tap the barrels and holding glasses upside down whilst we wonder why they won't hold any liquid.
I bet there are a lot of intelligent people living around the world in less polished democracies than ours wishing they lived under such a virile, functioning legislature. Better this than the ram-roading of the Blair years.
No. Just no.
There is plenty of reasons to criticise Blair's governments - just as there are any government - reasonably or unreasonably. But it generally functioned. Yes, there were problems: Iraq, obviously, and the spending.
But we currently have a government that is paralysed - Brexit is the parasitic wasp and the government the helpless cockroach. It's a zombie legislature. There's stuff the government needs to be doing and it isn't doing them, because Brexit consumes everything.
Worse, there's no obvious way out of this mess, even in the medium term. Even if May;s deal passes, we've got years of negotiating ahead. And we're not proving good at that, even amongst ourselves.
How can we sell ourselves around the world as the serious, helpful friend we want to be when all they see are a bunch of clowns in a boxing ring kicking each other in the knackers?
I think the Commons fairly accurately represents the electorate. Divided, contradictory, quixotic, confused, partisan and promoting agendas with a subtext significantly different to the overt text.
Sure it is shit with no good outcome, but that is where we are as a country, like it or not.
I'm getting very confused - how did the Spelman vote do that?
Had Spelman not passed then there would not have been a whip so they'd have been free to vote against No Deal. Instead, it was whipped and the likes of Rudd had to go against the government.
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So let's think this through. In the unlikely event that the Commons passes a motion that the government should revoke. They still won't do it. And enough Tory MPs will shield May from the pressure / motion of contempt / motion of no confidence to stop revoke happening
Everyone says what they're against, what they hate, and too few people saying what they're for. Idealism and opportunism trumps compromise and realism.
We couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and the world knows it because they can see us in the brewery pissing into the vats, failing to tap the barrels and holding glasses upside down whilst we wonder why they won't hold any liquid.
They will not want an election against a Tory party that has finally passed a deal vs Jez who is looking a lot more tired than he did in 2017.
Tory Whip Mike Freer just ignored a three line whip he imposed on himself.
On today's evidence, I really wouldn't trust her not to try to wriggle her way out of a commitment to request an extension if she's given any room to do so.
It really is time for a reshaping of the political scene. Now is the time!
It’s very hard for a person to break with their close knit peer group which has banded together through thick and thin, and you’ve shared your innermost thoughts and fears and prejudices with. No-one likes to do it.
Nevertheless, they are paid to think for themselves and not be led by others or fear of what others may think of them.
https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/1105931548958830605
But hey are considerably blinder than the earthworm.
Which has put the rest of her plan into some jeopardy. She will, however, doubtless continue without significant change and try to have extend-and-revoke and extend-and-referendum go down.
Better this than the ram-roading of the Blair years.
So really none of them even back the deal, they just didn't want to lose a pay packet?
The Deal is Dead.
https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1105933136054099974
I wanted the deal to pass initially too, but we cannot just keep trotting out these expectations.
Remember that time Belgium didn't have a government for 18 months? That must have been so relaxing.
But I’m not sure the Speaker is going to allow MV3.
I couldn't be an MP for the reasons you say....there are easier and less tedious ways of making much better money. And if you want some sense self worth afforded by public duty..do what I have just done and return to being a social worker (or priest)
If you are a Leaver, you didn't vote for damage limitation. You voted to make things better. All the practical downsides either don't exist, have nothing to do with Brexit, or are somebody else's fault. So why should you leave an organisation, where you have a say to one where that organisation simply tells what to do and you have no say? That wasn't what you voted for.
And "the Brexit you voted for" was not No Deal.
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/744138949384278016
Right now, there’s 350 or so MPs who want to revoke A50, but without their own fingerprints appearing on the decision.
There is plenty of reasons to criticise Blair's governments - just as there are any government - reasonably or unreasonably. But it generally functioned. Yes, there were problems: Iraq, obviously, and the spending.
But we currently have a government that is paralysed - Brexit is the parasitic wasp and the government the helpless cockroach. It's a zombie legislature. There's stuff the government needs to be doing and it isn't doing them, because Brexit consumes everything.
Worse, there's no obvious way out of this mess, even in the medium term. Even if May;s deal passes, we've got years of negotiating ahead. And we're not proving good at that, even amongst ourselves.
How can we sell ourselves around the world as the serious, helpful friend we want to be when all they see are a bunch of clowns in a boxing ring kicking each other in the knackers?
If we are to have any chance of avoiding No Deal by filibuster, the salutary shock was necessary - and it’s not exactly Cooper’s responsibility to hold the Tories together.
Labour... I'm not so sure what the northern heartlands would do. I could see Farage becoming LOTO to a Corbyn government with Con under 100 MPs.
I'll try and help you here.
The EU likes its deal because …. (1) We stay in and continue to pay (2) They assume and hope that after ten years, we'll become used to this and lose the will to fight anymore (3) It takes pressure off them with other recalcitrant members.
ERG dislike the deal because of those three factors and because we are dependent on the EU acting in good faith. They don't believe it will.
I have sympathy with ERG but I'd go along with this deal because I suspect the EU will quickly revert to its usual MO. It will continue its advance to a true European union, and probably at a faster speed. We'll be forced to grin and bear it or summon the courage to finally leave.
I think the latter will happen. It will however take time, and the wound inflicted on democracy will take much longer to heal.
It will be no more 'Mr Nice Guy' from now on.
I certainly won't enjoy his rise, but I will take a grim satisfaction at the raft of political careers cut short.
But really - I’m going to run to your boss and try to get you sacked? WTF does that achieve?
Sure it is shit with no good outcome, but that is where we are as a country, like it or not.