Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
But other EU countries saying no
Like who? Provided it is a shift towards BINO or EUref2 then should be no problem
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years* at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
* Five years perhaps if full Vassal State and no arguments, but submitting to Brussels rule by order isn't going to sit well. (And further edit, of course there will be arguments. It has taken nearly three years so to NOT agree three Withdrawal Agreement preliminaries.)
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
But other EU countries saying no
Like who? Provided it is a shift towards BINO or EUref2 then should be no problem
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
each time one of these morons speaks, one has to wonder what else hey can come out with that will make the average intelligence of the average British politician appear lower
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
It is always amusing when people irrationally claim to know the mind of the public (or worse, "the people"). It is though "the public" is actually some kind of super-mind, like Lovelock's earth in the Gaia principle. it is complete nonsense. "The People" do not exist, just a lot of confused individuals, some with logic, some without.
My bugbear is "if everyone did X, then we could Y" . A sure fire indicator that Y is doomed to fail
each time one of these morons speaks, one has to wonder what else hey can come out with that will make the average intelligence of the average British politician appear lower
I’m starting to come round to the idea of a momentum-style deselection campaign against this lot.
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years* at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
* Five years perhaps if full Vassal State and no arguments, but submitting to Brussels rule by order isn't going to sit well. (And further edit, of course there will be arguments. It has taken nearly three years so to NOT agree three Withdrawal Agreement preliminaries.)
A decade seems rather optomistic to me considering the slow progress over the last 30 months!
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
Whipped to abstain? OMG, the depths that our two main parties have fallen to. Proper statesmen must be spinning in their graves. Make a fucking decision you idiots,one way or tother. It is what you are paid salaries for.
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Where are the men in grey suits that should be stepping in to tell May to step aside.
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
The desire is still there. A momentary pause on the journey, perhaps, but they certainly aren’t changing direction. Could you imagine the EU giving up any real competences, for example?
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
Indeed. Ever closer union is something that the swivel-eyed froth about, but is seen as completely unimportant to the majority of continental Europeans as it is completely meaningless.
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
The desire is still there. A momentary pause on the journey, perhaps, but they certainly aren’t changing direction. Could you imagine the EU giving up any real competences, for example?
No. Hence I think the accusation of stasis is nearer the mark.
Groan. I think the real target for the Wollaston amendment should be 242 - key thing is to say that there are more MPs supporting this approach than May's. But that would require a helluva lot of Labour rebels.
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
Indeed. Ever closer union is something that the swivel-eyed froth about, but is seen as completely unimportant to the majority of continental Europeans as it is completely meaningless.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Well, we have the hilarious sight of rebel Brexiteers - who have spent the last four months repeatedly voting against three-line whips on the most important policy of the government - complaining about colleagues not following a very late and confused three-line whip on a motion which had not been discussed in Cabinet. So if we're going to do deselections, let's start with the serial rebels, eh?
Not really. It's a straightforward decision - there won't be a referendum unless the house votes for one, and there is another amendment to that effect already tabled. This amendment is pointless.
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Where are the men in grey suits that should be stepping in to tell May to step aside.
Could May agreeing to step down get MV3 through ?
May stepping down won't be of any interest to the DUP. They need a Bloody Big Bribe. I've been saying it long enough - PROMISE THEM THE BRIDGE-TUNNEL COMBO TO SCOTLAND.
It's not like May is going to be cutting the bloody ribbon. She won't even be around when the first detailed costs are offered up, making her successor blanche at that many noughts......
Whipped to abstain? OMG, the depths that our two main parties have fallen to. Proper statesmen must be spinning in their graves. Make a fucking decision you idiots,one way or tother. It is what you are paid salaries for.
but, but , but they deserve so much more the poor little lambs
Particularly shocking when you see something like this on such an impartial site as "Guido Fawkes" !!!! I mean Paul Staines clearly really loves Bercow.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Well, we have the hilarious sight of rebel Brexiteers - who have spent the last four months repeatedly voting against three-line whips on the most important policy of the government - complaining about colleagues not following a very late and confused three-line whip on a motion which had not been discussed in Cabinet. So if we're going to do deselections, let's start with the serial rebels, eh?
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Where are the men in grey suits that should be stepping in to tell May to step aside.
Could May agreeing to step down get MV3 through ?
May stepping down won't be of any interest to the DUP. They need a Bloody Big Bribe. I've been saying it long enough - PROMISE THEM THE BRIDGE-TUNNEL COMBO TO SCOTLAND.
It's not like May is going to be cutting the bloody ribbon. She won't even be around when the first detailed costs are offered up, making her successor blanche at that many noughts......
No doubt it’ll be built and they both leave shortly after. “So long, and thanks for this rather lovey bridge”
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Where are the men in grey suits that should be stepping in to tell May to step aside.
Could May agreeing to step down get MV3 through ?
May stepping down won't be of any interest to the DUP. They need a Bloody Big Bribe. I've been saying it long enough - PROMISE THEM THE BRIDGE-TUNNEL COMBO TO SCOTLAND.
It's not like May is going to be cutting the bloody ribbon. She won't even be around when the first detailed costs are offered up, making her successor blanche at that many noughts......
No doubt it’ll be built and they both leave shortly after. “So long, and thanks for this rather lovey bridge”
More strategic genius from the "grown-ups" that are the Tiggers.
The Tiggers are backing the Second Referendum amendment. FWIW, I agree with People's Vote not the Tiggers here: today's primary purpose is to support the concept of extension. Second referendum is subsidiary and should not get in the way of primary purpose. Cooper/Benn amendment a better way of tethering the cart once we have the horse.
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
Indeed. Ever closer union is something that the swivel-eyed froth about, but is seen as completely unimportant to the majority of continental Europeans as it is completely meaningless.
How is it meaningless?
It has about as much resonance and meaning as one of Theresa May's meaningful votes. Only the most extreme integrationists in Europe believe in it. It is like the Labour Party's Clause 4, sorry like Clause 4 used to be before a load of dinosaurs came back form the dead in a political version of Jurassic Park!
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Well, we have the hilarious sight of rebel Brexiteers - who have spent the last four months repeatedly voting against three-line whips on the most important policy of the government - complaining about colleagues not following a very late and confused three-line whip on a motion which had not been discussed in Cabinet. So if we're going to do deselections, let's start with the serial rebels, eh?
Labour's also please.
Yes, they should of course take the thirty-year history into account where MPs have been in parliament that long.
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
Indeed. Ever closer union is something that the swivel-eyed froth about, but is seen as completely unimportant to the majority of continental Europeans as it is completely meaningless.
How is it meaningless?
... Only the most extreme integrationists in Europe believe in it...
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Where are the men in grey suits that should be stepping in to tell May to step aside.
Could May agreeing to step down get MV3 through ?
May stepping down won't be of any interest to the DUP. They need a Bloody Big Bribe. I've been saying it long enough - PROMISE THEM THE BRIDGE-TUNNEL COMBO TO SCOTLAND.
It's not like May is going to be cutting the bloody ribbon. She won't even be around when the first detailed costs are offered up, making her successor blanche at that many noughts......
It will be an exciting crossing as it will tunnel through the biggest pile of WW2 bombs
I wonder historically, how many other amendments with 127 signatories have not been selected by a Speaker?
I am not terribly in favour of a second referendum, but why are Brexiteers so terrified of a second ref? I thought you have always said the will-o-the-people is with you?
To break the logjam, Mrs May needs to do two things. The first is to consult Parliament, in a series of indicative votes that will reveal what form of Brexit can command a majority. The second is to call a referendum to make that choice legitimate. Today every faction sticks to its red lines, claiming to be speaking for the people. Only this combination can put those arguments to rest.
And so any deal that Parliament approves must be put to the public for a final say. It will be decried by hardline Brexiteers as treasonous and by hardline Remainers as an act of self-harm. Forget them. It is for the public to decide whether they are in favour of the new relationship with the eu—or whether, on reflection, they would rather stick with the one they already have.
I wonder historically, how many other amendments with 127 signatories have not been selected by a Speaker?
I am not terribly in favour of a second referendum, but why are Brexiteers so terrified of a second ref? I thought you have always said the will-o-the-people is with you?
More that the decision of the first one should be enacted first.
To break the logjam, Mrs May needs to do two things. The first is to consult Parliament, in a series of indicative votes that will reveal what form of Brexit can command a majority. The second is to call a referendum to make that choice legitimate. Today every faction sticks to its red lines, claiming to be speaking for the people. Only this combination can put those arguments to rest.
And so any deal that Parliament approves must be put to the public for a final say. It will be decried by hardline Brexiteers as treasonous and by hardline Remainers as an act of self-harm. Forget them. It is for the public to decide whether they are in favour of the new relationship with the eu—or whether, on reflection, they would rather stick with the one they already have.
Except this isn’t the new relationship with the EU. That is to be decided afterwards because of the EU’s sequencing policy.
The atmosphere in the house has changed. It is very light hearted as if a burden has been lifted. Perhaps they can see a light at the end of the tunnel. Perhaps it is the absence of the spectral figure of Mrs May. Something has changed in the dynamics.
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Where are the men in grey suits that should be stepping in to tell May to step aside.
Could May agreeing to step down get MV3 through ?
May stepping down won't be of any interest to the DUP. They need a Bloody Big Bribe. I've been saying it long enough - PROMISE THEM THE BRIDGE-TUNNEL COMBO TO SCOTLAND.
It's not like May is going to be cutting the bloody ribbon. She won't even be around when the first detailed costs are offered up, making her successor blanche at that many noughts......
It will be an exciting crossing as it will tunnel through the biggest pile of WW2 bombs
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
What the bleeding fuck are you talking about? Integration is accelerating. What’s more, since Lisbon they don’t need Treaty change to do it. They want an EU army, EU wide migration laws, harmonised taxes, harmonised minimum wages, one EU UNSC seat, they want it all. Moreover, the horrible logic of the eurozone means that they HAVE to go for much closer integration - pooling debt, etc. Because if they don’t the eurozone will fly apart in the next crisis.
Perhaps you missed Macron’s speech on all this. Understandable I suppose. He is just the president of France.
Sure, he won’t get everything he wants at once. But the direction of travel is obvious. Only a lying cretin, or a British Europhile (i.e. the same thing) would pretend otherwise.
...I suspect Wollaston will pull the amendment at the last minute, to save it only getting about 30 votes.
More critically, the amendment will be pulled because once voted on it isn't normally allowable to table the same proposal again (May and her deal being an exception, clearly)
I wonder historically, how many other amendments with 127 signatories have not been selected by a Speaker?
I am not terribly in favour of a second referendum, but why are Brexiteers so terrified of a second ref? I thought you have always said the will-o-the-people is with you?
You're not kidding anyone there! But I don't believe a 2nd ref to be good for the country (far worse than May's deal anyway), it'll lead to disenfranchisement for millions and will prolong the process and uncertainty. No question suitable will be agreed by a majority I suspect and I don't expect the losing side to honour the result any better than some MPs have this time round. I'd also expect a 3rd ref if remain won. So really it's not a solution only more 'unicorns'.
At the moment we are one agreement away from resolving the issue at least for the forseeable future. With a people's vote we may be 3 or 4 momentous dragged out decisions away. If you ask the public do you want this dragging on for months and years they will say no, and ergo they won't like a People's Vote. In some ways revoking article 50 would be better.
It's interesting how all sides in the Brexit debate continue to use personal insults against their opponents. It does nothing at all to solve the toxic nature of the crisis. People who are simply extolling sincerely held positions they've always believed in are dubbed as "idiots".
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
Indeed. Ever closer union is something that the swivel-eyed froth about, but is seen as completely unimportant to the majority of continental Europeans as it is completely meaningless.
How is it meaningless?
... Only the most extreme integrationists in Europe believe in it...
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
What the bleeding fuck are you talking about? Integration is accelerating. What’s more, since Lisbon they don’t need Treaty change to do it. They want an EU army, EU wide migration laws, harmonised taxes, harmonised minimum wages, one EU UNSC seat, they want it all. Moreover, the horrible logic of the eurozone means that they HAVE to go for much closer integration - pooling debt, etc. Because if they don’t the eurozone will fly apart in the next crisis.
Perhaps you missed Macron’s speech on all this. Understandable I suppose. He is just the president of France.
Sure, he won’t get everything he wants at once. But the direction of travel is obvious. Only a lying cretin, or a British Europhile (i.e. the same thing) would pretend otherwise.
I think the term cretin and any other term for people of limited intellect belongs to anyone who believes Muslims should be deported for simply being Muslim. You are talking out of your backside once again. It is said that travel broadens the mind. Clearly being of broad mind does not apply to travel writers for Rupert Murdoch's Times.
The atmosphere in the house has changed. It is very light hearted as if a burden has been lifted. Perhaps they can see a light at the end of the tunnel. Perhaps it is the absence of the spectral figure of Mrs May. Something has changed in the dynamics.
Sadly it is probably just the prospect of having a few more months to continue the atmosphere of unrealistic debate.
I think the term cretin and any other term for people of limited intellect belongs to anyone who believes Muslims should be deported for simply being Muslim. You are talking out of your backside once again. It is said that travel broadens the mind. Clearly being of broad mind does not apply to travel writers for Rupert Murdoch's Times.
But his point is correct. Unless you think Macron wasn’t being serious?
I wonder historically, how many other amendments with 127 signatories have not been selected by a Speaker?
I am not terribly in favour of a second referendum, but why are Brexiteers so terrified of a second ref? I thought you have always said the will-o-the-people is with you?
More that the decision of the first one should be enacted first.
I don't understand that argument. If I say, I'll have a pint of bitter, and I then say, *before the barman has started to pump the bitter, *, no make that Guinness, where is the sense in saying sorry, mate, you have to have the bitter first?
Control of the process is now clearly passing to Parliament as last night's votes show and for some sort of CU and SM BINO, Tusk has also signalled the EU would grant a lengthy extension if the UK shifted in that direction today
It seems to me that control is passing to nobody.
Control is passing to a cabal of unrepresentative MPs and a speaker who are hell bent on ignoring the referendum.
Good luck to anyone trying to run the country if they succeed.
Nah, the HoC is accurately reflecting a British public lost, conflicted and confused about the fiasco of Brexit.
Disagree - the public want Brexit over. The HoC wants to can kick forever rather than take a decision.
Brexit will never be over. Not for ten years at least. Maybe if we revoke, but even then doubtful.
Same goes for EU integration. An unstoppable force with only one destination.
The EU integration bandwagon has more or less stopped.There is almost zero willingness for it amongst member states. This is the other side of the coin from "The EU is incapable of change" criticism that comes from largely the same people. I think the second criticism has more validity, incidentally.
What the bleeding fuck are you talking about? Integration is accelerating. What’s more, since Lisbon they don’t need Treaty change to do it. They want an EU army, EU wide migration laws, harmonised taxes, harmonised minimum wages, one EU UNSC seat, they want it all. Moreover, the horrible logic of the eurozone means that they HAVE to go for much closer integration - pooling debt, etc. Because if they don’t the eurozone will fly apart in the next crisis.
Perhaps you missed Macron’s speech on all this. Understandable I suppose. He is just the president of France.
Sure, he won’t get everything he wants at once. But the direction of travel is obvious. Only a lying cretin, or a British Europhile (i.e. the same thing) would pretend otherwise.
I think the term cretin and any other term for people of limited intellect belongs to anyone who believes Muslims should be deported for simply being Muslim. You are talking out of your backside once again. It is said that travel broadens the mind. Clearly being of broad mind does not apply to travel writers for Rupert Murdoch's Times.
Certainly he travels the world but seems to learn next to nothing.
Ever Closer Union isn't meaningless, but it isn't happening either. The European Union is a massive Jenga puzzle. It can scarcely afford to add any pieces or take them away from the pile or the whole edifice come tumbling down. This is the EU's weakness and its strength. It is fragile, and make no mistake Brexit is a threat to the EU and is seen as such. But everyone knows the score and no-one rocks the boat, including badly behaved countries like Hungary. It's why German car manufacturers won't come to the rescue of a nice-to-UK deal. It's why Ireland will get its way on the backstop and it's why the UK will find the EU to be a tough partner to deal with little fudge on offer.
The reason for this brittleness is that the EU operates by consensus of 28, now 27, member states with different agendas and it is over reliant on legal force for execution of its policies. Its issues stem from it NOT being the superstate that few people want it to be.
...I suspect Wollaston will pull the amendment at the last minute, to save it only getting about 30 votes.
More critically, the amendment will be pulled because once voted on it isn't normally allowable to table the same proposal again (May and her deal being an exception, clearly)
At what point can you no longer pull an amendment. Bercow did not allow Spelman to pull her amendment yesterday. I am not clear on how close to the vote that was but it seems like to was a few hours before. Might Wollaston be unable to pull her amendment?
Ever Closer Union isn't meaningless, but it isn't happening either. The European Union is a massive Jenga puzzle. It can't scarcely afford to add any pieces or take them away from the pile or the whole edifice come tumbling down. This is the EU's weakness and its strength. It is fragile, and make no mistake Brexit is a threat to the EU and is seen as such. But everyone knows the score and no-one rocks the boat, including badly behaved countries like Hungary. It's why German car manufacturers won't come to the rescue of a nice-to-UK deal. It's why Ireland will get its way on the backstop and it's why the UK will find the EU to be a tough partner to deal with little fudge on offer.
The reason for this brittleness is that the EU operates by consensus of 28, now 27, member states with different agendas and it is over reliant on legal force for execution of its policies. Its issues stem from it NOT being the superstate that few people want it to be.
That has always been the case and yet it has still accrued significant powers over the individual states.
We are rewriting the rulebook if Conservative MPs will not vote to sustain a Conservative government.
Ministers are not sustaining a Conservative government as of last night.
The queen should step in soon.
The stakes certainly got upped yesterday, with a lot of Ministers - including in the Cabinet - putting their careers on the line. Those who rebelled will now see that if May succeeds, they will be out on their ear in a mahoosive reshuffle. And if Brexit fails, they will get deselected for their pains of being on the "winning" side.....
Where are the men in grey suits that should be stepping in to tell May to step aside.
Could May agreeing to step down get MV3 through ?
May stepping down won't be of any interest to the DUP. They need a Bloody Big Bribe. I've been saying it long enough - PROMISE THEM THE BRIDGE-TUNNEL COMBO TO SCOTLAND.
It's not like May is going to be cutting the bloody ribbon. She won't even be around when the first detailed costs are offered up, making her successor blanche at that many noughts......
It will be an exciting crossing as it will tunnel through the biggest pile of WW2 bombs
You'd probably take a longer, more northern route to avoid Beaufort's Dyke. What's a couple of extra billion out of Spreadsheet Phil's war chest? (And like he has any long-term career plans for that money anyway....)
I wonder historically, how many other amendments with 127 signatories have not been selected by a Speaker?
I am not terribly in favour of a second referendum, but why are Brexiteers so terrified of a second ref? I thought you have always said the will-o-the-people is with you?
More that the decision of the first one should be enacted first.
I don't understand that argument. If I say, I'll have a pint of bitter, and I then say, *before the barman has started to pump the bitter, *, no make that Guinness, where is the sense in saying sorry, mate, you have to have the bitter first?
Political transactions are rarely so simple. It was repeated during the campaign that this would be it, no further votes. You don’t have the same conditions when ordering your drink.
Comments
* Five years perhaps if full Vassal State and no arguments, but submitting to Brussels rule by order isn't going to sit well. (And further edit, of course there will be arguments. It has taken nearly three years so to NOT agree three Withdrawal Agreement preliminaries.)
Discounting military R&D it would have been at its highest for much longer:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/researchanddevelopmentexpenditure/bulletins/ukgrossdomesticexpenditureonresearchanddevelopment/2017#uk-rd-expenditure-continues-long-term-upward-trend
The report shows that R&D was at its lowest level during the Blair government.
(Catastrophically).
The queen should step in soon.
Way to provide strong quality leadership there Corbyn...ffs.
Yet again proving that the house of incapable of voting 'for' something./
Could May agreeing to step down get MV3 through ?
Bet you she’d do a better job.
Don't be silly.
https://order-order.com/2019/03/14/bercow-refuses-select-cross-party-second-referendum-amendment-signed-127-mps/
How did all parties end up quite this shit at the same time?
It's not like May is going to be cutting the bloody ribbon. She won't even be around when the first detailed costs are offered up, making her successor blanche at that many noughts......
Sack them all and start again
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/sep/25/labour-conference-brexit-debate-starmer-increasingly-likely-to-vote-down-mays-brexit-deal-starmer-says-politics-live
https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1105423352733282304
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/merkel-and-macron-s-answer-to-populism-ever-closer-union-3twb3m8xk
And so any deal that Parliament approves must be put to the public for a final say. It will be decried by hardline Brexiteers as treasonous and by hardline Remainers as an act of self-harm. Forget them. It is for the public to decide whether they are in favour of the new relationship with the eu—or whether, on reflection, they would rather stick with the one they already have.
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1106185993005264897?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1106185993005264897&ref_url=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/mar/14/brexit-mps-to-vote-on-delaying-departure-from-european-union-politics-live
...I suspect Wollaston will pull the amendment at the last minute, to save it only getting about 30 votes.
Perhaps you missed Macron’s speech on all this. Understandable I suppose. He is just the president of France.
https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-european-parliament-election-calls-for-big-eu-changes-in-european-renaissance/
Sure, he won’t get everything he wants at once. But the direction of travel is obvious. Only a lying cretin, or a British Europhile (i.e. the same thing) would pretend otherwise.
At the moment we are one agreement away from resolving the issue at least for the forseeable future. With a people's vote we may be 3 or 4 momentous dragged out decisions away. If you ask the public do you want this dragging on for months and years they will say no, and ergo they won't like a People's Vote. In some ways revoking article 50 would be better.
The reason for this brittleness is that the EU operates by consensus of 28, now 27, member states with different agendas and it is over reliant on legal force for execution of its policies. Its issues stem from it NOT being the superstate that few people want it to be.