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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What four years of Govey as EdSec did to the teaching vote

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited March 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What four years of Govey as EdSec did to the teaching vote

With Theresa May’s long term prospects in the job not looking very good there’s a lot of focus in the betting markets on who will succeed her as Conservative leader and Prime Minister. Currently the joint favourites are the ex-Mayor and former Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson and the current environment secretary, Michael Gove.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    edited March 2019
    Oh dear, you forget how toxic Gove can be.

    That said he was being advised by Dom Cummings at Education and those who deal with Cummings think he’s a [moderated] and think he’s HMV.
  • That said everyone in the Justice system loved him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    A former chief inspector of schools said LGBT rights lessons should be reinstated, despite parents' protests.

    The No Outsiders programme at five Birmingham schools stopped when parents said it was age-inappropriate and incompatible with Islam.

    Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former head of Ofsted, said people had to accept they were "living in this country with the values that this country holds".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47692617
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,096
    Third like Boris
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "A very aggressive individual who was determined to make an impact."

    i.e. "effective" ...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_P said:
    I think it’s the last chance to get behind the deal.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Oh dear, you forget how toxic Gove can be.

    That said he was being advised by Dom Cummings at Education and those who deal with Cummings think he’s a [moderated] and think he’s HMV.

    Schools are AWFUL post Gove. All that focusing on maths, English and science the kids have to do now - where will our media studies grads of the future come from ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2019
    Seven injured as Gaza rocket hits home in central Israel

    The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the rocket that hit the house in Mishmeret was launched from Rafah in southern Gaza, about 120km (75 miles) away.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-47689684

    Has somebody been rearming Hamas?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.

    In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.

    Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.

    Regarding the part of your otherwise well-argued answer I have highlighted in bold: the referendum was explicitly advisory on Parliament, not binding.

  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,429
    TGOHF said:

    Oh dear, you forget how toxic Gove can be.

    That said he was being advised by Dom Cummings at Education and those who deal with Cummings think he’s a [moderated] and think he’s HMV.

    Schools are AWFUL post Gove. All that focusing on maths, English and science the kids have to do now - where will our media studies grads of the future come from ?
    Is English a good GCSE / A level for media studies?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited March 2019
    "On the World at One the housing minister Kit Malthouse dismissed the Letwin plan for indicative votes on Brexit, echoing what Number 10 said about it earlier. Matlhouse said:

    I hope members across the house realise that it has significantly detrimental constitutional implications and will vote it down so that we can continue with an orderly, iterative process of reaching consensus across the house rather than a kind of X Factor."

    Meanwhile, some Labour MP's still think MV3 is about to go through. Collective delusion is still the order of the day.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Gove is very bright but he is only good in small doses. He has to be shuffled every couple of years because it just takes it too far and doesn’t know when to stop.

    He also loves the drama and can’t help but plot.

    But, he achieved interesting, considered and helpful change at Education, Justice and Environment and also was behind Brexit too.

    You can’t deny he’s a haymaker.
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 265
    Gove has never been Education Secretary for Wales....not sure why teachers in Wales would have been included in poll????
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    TGOHF said:

    "A very aggressive individual who was determined to make an impact."

    i.e. "effective" ...

    You don't need to be the former to be the latter. Indeed generally the two are incompatible.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    A former chief inspector of schools said LGBT rights lessons should be reinstated, despite parents' protests.

    The No Outsiders programme at five Birmingham schools stopped when parents said it was age-inappropriate and incompatible with Islam.

    Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former head of Ofsted, said people had to accept they were "living in this country with the values that this country holds".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47692617

    Too blooming right.

    Out of the sorry shower that is the Cabinet - or the even worse cavalcade of wit & beauty (sic) on the back benches, Gove strikes me as the least worst option.

    Just get the deal over the line first.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Some of his best friends are gay? :D
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    "On the World at One the housing minister Kit Malthouse dismissed the Letwin plan for indicative votes on Brexit, echoing what Number 10 said about it earlier. Matlhouse said:

    I hope members across the house realise that it has significantly detrimental constitutional implications and will vote it down so that we can continue with an orderly, iterative process of reaching consensus across the house rather than a kind of X Factor."

    Meanwhile, some Labour MP's still think MV3 is about to go through. Collective delusion is still the order of the day.

    No 10 has just said it won't be this week. (Or at least refused to confirm that it would be this week.)

    I was expecting more taking up of the Article 50 solution by now - but I guess the first penguin to jump in the water is the one that gets eaten by the seal.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Gove is very bright but he is only good in small doses. He has to be shuffled every couple of years because it just takes it too far and doesn’t know when to stop.

    What is it about this current Brexit impasse that suggests he wasn't correct to take a blade to the civil service ? The DoE was the first to feel the pain of the reality of the 21st century.


  • Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Far-right Italian deputy Matteo Salvini takes Basilicata in south
    Deputy PM renews pledge to change Europe as 24 years of leftwing rule ends in region"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/25/far-right-italian-deputy-matteo-salvini-takes-basilicata-in-south
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.

    In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.

    Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.

    Regarding the part of your otherwise well-argued answer I have highlighted in bold: the referendum was explicitly advisory on Parliament, not binding.

    That is true but I am afraid that argument doesn't wash with the public at large when both sides of the argument were telling us that it would be binding.
  • RobinWiggsRobinWiggs Posts: 621
    I'd have said anyone who upsets the NUT and the teaching profession in general is probably doing a good job at Education.

    Gove's return to a focus on standards, exams and "traditional" core subjects was welcome in many homes across the country.

    That a tory wasn't welcomed by the payroll vote during a period of austerity, whilst trying to reform the system is hardly the headline of the century.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
  • I'd have said anyone who upsets the NUT and the teaching profession in general is probably doing a good job at Education.

    Gove's return to a focus on standards, exams and "traditional" core subjects was welcome in many homes across the country.

    That a tory wasn't welcomed by the payroll vote during a period of austerity, whilst trying to reform the system is hardly the headline of the century.

    Gove's role in making teaching such an unrewarding profession that nobody wants to do it has led to a recruitment crisis so bad that some of my local schools are now closing on Friday afternoons. This is very much less welcome in homes around this part of the country.
  • TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    Schools are for the benefit of the children.

    Most teachers I have ever worked with were motivated by this fact. A decent HT will identify anyone timeserving and move them on. One of the things Gove got right was fast tracking capability procedures.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    edited March 2019

    TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    Schools are for the benefit of the children.

    Most teachers I have ever worked with were motivated by this fact. A decent HT will identify anyone timeserving and move them on. One of the things Gove got right was fast tracking capability procedures.
    The obsession on data seems extraordinary. More and more seems expected of teachers. Some of the changes have been good. The GCSE now does a much better job of dividing the very very top from the top and are much more stringent.

    Everything is about focusing on those kids from poorer backgrounds. Teachers are accountable for kids that dont do as good as their data says they should.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    So you believe schools are there primarily for the benefit of parents ?

    I was under the misapprehension that they were something to do with education.
  • RobinWiggsRobinWiggs Posts: 621

    I'd have said anyone who upsets the NUT and the teaching profession in general is probably doing a good job at Education.

    Gove's return to a focus on standards, exams and "traditional" core subjects was welcome in many homes across the country.

    That a tory wasn't welcomed by the payroll vote during a period of austerity, whilst trying to reform the system is hardly the headline of the century.

    Gove's role in making teaching such an unrewarding profession that nobody wants to do it has led to a recruitment crisis so bad that some of my local schools are now closing on Friday afternoons. This is very much less welcome in homes around this part of the country.
    Yes - it's appalling to have a graduate starting salary of £22/23k, annual pay progression, and 14 weeks of non-contact time a year. Boo hoo that there is some paper work and assessment of their value add to the children.

    It's a wonder anyone wants it as a vocation isn't it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    What time is today's vote expected, anyone know?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    @CarlottaVance - that last one is appalling. What a piece of work.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Nigelb said:

    TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    So you believe schools are there primarily for the benefit of parents ?

    I was under the misapprehension that they were something to do with education.
    Parents require a service - their children to be educated.

    Parents pay for the service via taxation.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,862
    TGOHF said:

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.

    Schools are primarily for the benefit of children surely. Although parents do receive an enormous incidental benefit - a place to ship the kids off to during the day allowing things like jobs to be considered for themselves.
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,572
    edited March 2019
    notme2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    Schools are for the benefit of the children.

    Most teachers I have ever worked with were motivated by this fact. A decent HT will identify anyone timeserving and move them on. One of the things Gove got right was fast tracking capability procedures.
    The obsession on data seems extraordinary. More and more seems expected of teachers. Some of the changes have been good. The GCSE now does a much better job of dividing the very very top from the top and are much more stringent.
    I've no objection to some of the changes, but ITT reform and the decimation of careers education were stupid. Cancelling Building Schools For The Future saved money, but just kicked the can down the road for someone else to deal with.

    He never got a grip of OFSTED, it is still a massive bureaucratic nightmare, which eats money, and tells you that schools with a largely middle class intake do well and schools in deprived areas do less well.

    Data is an ongoing issue - a uniform approach was never decided upon, and OFSTED have a constantly evolving framework (coupled with some inspection teams which don't follow their own guidance).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    "... schools are for their benefit not parents."

    Er, aren't schools for the benefit of children, not parents or teachers?

    I've generally been very impressed by the teachers I have met at my children's schools. They work hard for not a huge amount of money and seem genuinely committed to helping kids do well. I am probably more of a left wing extremist than any of them.
  • I'd have said anyone who upsets the NUT and the teaching profession in general is probably doing a good job at Education.

    Gove's return to a focus on standards, exams and "traditional" core subjects was welcome in many homes across the country.

    That a tory wasn't welcomed by the payroll vote during a period of austerity, whilst trying to reform the system is hardly the headline of the century.

    Gove's role in making teaching such an unrewarding profession that nobody wants to do it has led to a recruitment crisis so bad that some of my local schools are now closing on Friday afternoons. This is very much less welcome in homes around this part of the country.
    Yes - it's appalling to have a graduate starting salary of £22/23k, annual pay progression, and 14 weeks of non-contact time a year. Boo hoo that there is some paper work and assessment of their value add to the children.

    It's a wonder anyone wants it as a vocation isn't it.
    You've clearly never tried teaching.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    "... schools are for their benefit not parents."

    Er, aren't schools for the benefit of children, not parents or teachers?

    No as 5 year olds aren't old enough to define their requirements and they certainly haven't paid for the service through taxation.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,096

    What time is today's vote expected, anyone know?

    Amendments from 10pm onwards
  • DUP say No
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,862
    TGOHF said:

    Parents require a service - their children to be educated.

    Parents pay for the service via taxation.

    But I too require your children to be educated.
  • DUP say No

    default - time to ask the question in the negative on the deal and thus secure a positive response....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    TGOHF said:

    Gove is very bright but he is only good in small doses. He has to be shuffled every couple of years because it just takes it too far and doesn’t know when to stop.

    What is it about this current Brexit impasse that suggests he wasn't correct to take a blade to the civil service ? The DoE was the first to feel the pain of the reality of the 21st century.


    The civil service responds to strong leadership and energy from ministers. You need that to get meaningful reform.

    I expect the trouble was that Cummings insulted anyone slower or more uncertain than him, Gove was polite but disingenuous at times and neither good at listening to feedback, judging it to be just resistance to their reforms (sometimes but not always).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF said:

    Parents require a service - their children to be educated.

    Parents pay for the service via taxation.

    But I too require your children to be educated.
    Did you pay me for procreating ? If not then no.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,096
    5,500,315
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Petition just gone through 5.5m.

    Mind you, last time I was doing this was with the tory anti-Corbyn video of GE 2017, and look how that turned out.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    A former chief inspector of schools said LGBT rights lessons should be reinstated, despite parents' protests.

    The No Outsiders programme at five Birmingham schools stopped when parents said it was age-inappropriate and incompatible with Islam.

    Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former head of Ofsted, said people had to accept they were "living in this country with the values that this country holds".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47692617

    I completely agree with this but despite that I thought that Michael Wilshaw on the Today program this morning was embarrassing. He repeatedly contradicted himself, he seemed to get led by the nose by the interviewer and, for someone who is supposed to know about education, he was barely coherent let alone persuasive. It was a really deeply unimpressive performance.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,862

    Yes - it's appalling to have a graduate starting salary of £22/23k, annual pay progression, and 14 weeks of non-contact time a year. Boo hoo that there is some paper work and assessment of their value add to the children.

    It's a wonder anyone wants it as a vocation isn't it.

    Are you wearing a revolving bow tie?
  • AnotherEngineerAnotherEngineer Posts: 64
    edited March 2019
    I'm sure that would have been different if he'd just given them a 100% pay rise and no assessments.

    I'm not sure what the rest of the taxpaying public would have thought about that though.

    What happened during Ed Balls' reign?
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    DUP say No

    The (wo)man from the DUP, (s)he says no. The Oranges are not ready yet.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    IanB2 said:

    What time is today's vote expected, anyone know?

    Amendments from 10pm onwards
    Cheers
  • Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    I always thought 'the Blob' was a pretty fair description.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    On topic, I wonder if OGH is making the same error (Though I note the final section is more complmentary toward Gove than the graphic) that he has made wrt Biden's chances in the Democrat race. I think Gove is rightly one of the frontrunners (Though too short at the recent 7-2 I laid on Betfair), both he and Biden are in a different place to where they were a few years ago.
    I'll confess that I'm not on Hunt at the longest odds I could be either as I mentally dismissed him with the fact he was a Tory health Sec. He too has a real chance now.
  • Awb683 said:

    I always thought 'the Blob' was a pretty fair description.

    If you read Cumming's blog posts about education, then yes - absolutely
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Jury retired this morning to consider its verdict in trial of Duckenfield and others re Hillsborough.

    Seems surprising that there has been very little media coverage of the trial.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    TGOHF said:

    Nigelb said:

    TGOHF said:

    Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.

    Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.

    The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.

    On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.

    Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.

    Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".

    As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
    So you believe schools are there primarily for the benefit of parents ?

    I was under the misapprehension that they were something to do with education.
    Parents require a service - their children to be educated.

    Parents pay for the service via taxation.
    You are really just making yourself look stupid now.

    I've no children but my taxes go towards education as much as yours. I don't mind that though, because I want to live in a society of reasonably well-educated people not one full of ignorant stooges.

    If your posts are any reflection, thank heavens your children are being educated, not just relying on your 'wisdom'.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    People have heard of Jean-Claude Juncker, and his current job will be finished soon.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,862

    He never got a grip of OFSTED, it is still a massive bureaucratic nightmare, which eats money, and tells you that schools with a largely middle class intake do well and schools in deprived areas do less well.

    I hear that there is copious and solid research which indicates that once you adjust for the socio-economic advantage or disadvantage of their pupil intake there is little tangible difference between the exam performance of most schools, whether state or private.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    I'd have said anyone who upsets the NUT and the teaching profession in general is probably doing a good job at Education.

    Gove's return to a focus on standards, exams and "traditional" core subjects was welcome in many homes across the country.

    That a tory wasn't welcomed by the payroll vote during a period of austerity, whilst trying to reform the system is hardly the headline of the century.

    Gove's role in making teaching such an unrewarding profession that nobody wants to do it has led to a recruitment crisis so bad that some of my local schools are now closing on Friday afternoons. This is very much less welcome in homes around this part of the country.
    Yes - it's appalling to have a graduate starting salary of £22/23k, annual pay progression, and 14 weeks of non-contact time a year. Boo hoo that there is some paper work and assessment of their value add to the children.

    It's a wonder anyone wants it as a vocation isn't it.
    You've clearly never tried teaching.
    I have two grandchildren as well as a granddaughter-in-law who are, or have been teachers. I have no doubt from their workload that the 14 weeks of non-contact time is balanced to a considerable degree by the extra time spent during 'normal' working weeks.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    TGOHF said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF said:

    Parents require a service - their children to be educated.

    Parents pay for the service via taxation.

    But I too require your children to be educated.
    Did you pay me for procreating ? If not then no.
    Of course we all require every child to have the best education possible. I don't want to live in a country full of unproductive, resentful morons susceptible to any huckster politician spinning them a line about how it's all the fault of forriners. Or at least, not any more than I am already.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    FPT

    From the judge's summing up in Jeffrey Archer's libel claim (the claim itself, *not* the later prosecution):

    "Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? Has she had a happy married life? Has she been able to enjoy, rather than endure, her husband Jeffrey?"

    Don't forget the references to "cold, joyless, rubber-insulated intercourse."

    As with the summing up in the Thorpe case, it's often hard to draw the line between satire and the real thing,
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I think and hope Dugdale wins the case. Her homophobia comment wrt Stuart Dickson seems to my mind to be an honestly held opinion. Reserve the libel process for the likes of Lipstadt Vs Irving please.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,862

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    Liddo was layable in size at 6 yesterday.

    I hope you crystallized plenty.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1110189774558687238

    Not sure I concur. It assumes the ERG think the Deal is just about acceptable provided May is gone. But they know she'll be gone by he end of the year which still leaves pleanty of time for their chosen candidate to sort out the actual long-term deal with the EU.

    Am I missing something?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kinabalu said:

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    Liddo was layable in size at 6 yesterday.

    I hope you crystallized plenty.
    I had some very nice choices to make yesterday.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Pulpstar said:
    Yes - the BBC Reporter Philip Sim has a full thread including background.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited March 2019
    kinabalu said:

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    Liddo was layable in size at 6 yesterday.

    I hope you crystallized plenty.
    I've taken him down to a similar red to Rudd in that book, who is still my biggest loser.
    True green still due to Fred Done's generous terms at Totesport .
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,862
    Pulpstar said:

    On topic, I wonder if OGH is making the same error (Though I note the final section is more complmentary toward Gove than the graphic) that he has made wrt Biden's chances in the Democrat race. I think Gove is rightly one of the frontrunners (Though too short at the recent 7-2 I laid on Betfair), both he and Biden are in a different place to where they were a few years ago.
    I'll confess that I'm not on Hunt at the longest odds I could be either as I mentally dismissed him with the fact he was a Tory health Sec. He too has a real chance now.

    It's evolving as Hunt v Gove, I sense. With Johnson just still possible.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,300

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    I still think it depends on whether they're looking for a disposable one to sign off on the Commons version of Brexit because TMay won't... or are looking for the leader who'll take them into an election more than six months off. I doubt Gove sees himself as the former.

    I guess it depends to some extent whether TMay manages her own demise or is hustled out of the back door/jeered out of the Commons on April 8th.

    If it's the latter, I could see Lidington being put forward to enact something in a hurry which 75 per cent of the Tories and 40 per cent of the others could live with, on the promise he'd go for a GE soon after.

    If TMay announces a date and survives through the exit, the Tories can have a proper leadership contest first.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    For me Lidington is May without the charisma and personal charm. As a stop gap to get us out of this mess just maybe but surely not as anything else.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    I have to admit I know a fair few friends who went on the March but not a single one would ever have dreamed of voting Tory even without Brexit. That is not to say I don't know a couple of Tory Remainers but both of them would rather cut off their arm than vote for Corbyn.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    People have heard of Jean-Claude Juncker, and his current job will be finished soon.
    Suggesting Jean-Claude Juncker should be PM of the UK sounds like a step too far.

    Even for you.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    AndyJS said:

    "Far-right Italian deputy Matteo Salvini takes Basilicata in south
    Deputy PM renews pledge to change Europe as 24 years of leftwing rule ends in region"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/25/far-right-italian-deputy-matteo-salvini-takes-basilicata-in-south

    It's almost as if the times were set fair for a Eurosceptic with populist policies and charisma to sweep the electoral board.

    Pity May has only the least important part - the Euroscepticism.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    It is as it was in the 1980's and 1990's.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    Liddo was layable in size at 6 yesterday.

    I hope you crystallized plenty.
    I've taken him down to a similar red to Rudd in that book, who is still my biggest loser
    I always chicken out at green at zero.

    Just in case..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,862
    TGOHF said:

    Did you pay me for procreating ? If not then no.

    No, what?
  • DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    I have to admit I know a fair few friends who went on the March but not a single one would ever have dreamed of voting Tory even without Brexit. That is not to say I don't know a couple of Tory Remainers but both of them would rather cut off their arm than vote for Corbyn.
    This exactly reflects my friend and work colleague group
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    In 2010 a plurality of teachers supported the blue team. They were on Gove's side. His backers should reflect on whether his alienation of the teachers make it more or less plausible that Gove could, as Prime Minister, deal successfully with the EU and the EU27.

    Whether his reforms were good or bad is almost beside the point.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    edited March 2019
    DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    It was always the Labour plan from 2009 onwards, to salt the earth, ramp up what would have been temporary spending as part of the cycle to a structural increase in public spending knowing that it would be an utter mess rolling back. But they assumed that they would be back in again in 2015 at the latest...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On topic, I wonder if OGH is making the same error (Though I note the final section is more complmentary toward Gove than the graphic) that he has made wrt Biden's chances in the Democrat race. I think Gove is rightly one of the frontrunners (Though too short at the recent 7-2 I laid on Betfair), both he and Biden are in a different place to where they were a few years ago.
    I'll confess that I'm not on Hunt at the longest odds I could be either as I mentally dismissed him with the fact he was a Tory health Sec. He too has a real chance now.

    It's evolving as Hunt v Gove, I sense. With Johnson just still possible.
    Or Francois.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    What is Gove?
    Davis don't hurt me
    Don't hurt me
    No more
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    Yes, I’m expecting a drubbing in the not so distant future.

    The Conservatives have never looked totally secure in the last ten years, and i can feel the country moving Left in my gut, which the fundamentals in the underlying data suggest as well.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    I'd have said anyone who upsets the NUT and the teaching profession in general is probably doing a good job at Education.

    Gove's return to a focus on standards, exams and "traditional" core subjects was welcome in many homes across the country.

    That a tory wasn't welcomed by the payroll vote during a period of austerity, whilst trying to reform the system is hardly the headline of the century.

    Gove's role in making teaching such an unrewarding profession that nobody wants to do it has led to a recruitment crisis so bad that some of my local schools are now closing on Friday afternoons. This is very much less welcome in homes around this part of the country.
    Yes - it's appalling to have a graduate starting salary of £22/23k, annual pay progression, and 14 weeks of non-contact time a year. Boo hoo that there is some paper work and assessment of their value add to the children.

    It's a wonder anyone wants it as a vocation isn't it.
    You've clearly never tried teaching.
    This attitude really annoys me (Robin's not yours). There is a huge amount wrong with our education system and I do think it is now a very poor shadow of what it was in the past but that has bugger all to do with how much teacher's work.

    It is certainly not a career I would choose for an easy life nor great riches. Also of course I don't have the temperament. I would probably have throttled half a dozen of the little darlings before the first week was out
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545
    DavidL said:

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    For me Lidington is May without the charisma and personal charm. As a stop gap to get us out of this mess just maybe but surely not as anything else.
    Lidington is a uniter and May is a divider. Whatever other qualities, we need something much more like him than her right now.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On topic, I wonder if OGH is making the same error (Though I note the final section is more complmentary toward Gove than the graphic) that he has made wrt Biden's chances in the Democrat race. I think Gove is rightly one of the frontrunners (Though too short at the recent 7-2 I laid on Betfair), both he and Biden are in a different place to where they were a few years ago.
    I'll confess that I'm not on Hunt at the longest odds I could be either as I mentally dismissed him with the fact he was a Tory health Sec. He too has a real chance now.

    It's evolving as Hunt v Gove, I sense. With Johnson just still possible.
    Or Francois.
    Do you often have nightmares? Bad ones?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    It is as it was in the 1980's and 1990's.
    I think that they have alienated a core constituency. They are really vulnerable right now.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    People have heard of Jean-Claude Juncker, and his current job will be finished soon.
    Suggesting Jean-Claude Juncker should be PM of the UK sounds like a step too far.

    Even for you.
    Who was the last foreign-born Prime Minister? Wasn't one of the early 20th Century PMs born in Canada? New Zealand-born Bryan Gould was an unsuccessful contender for the Labour leadership 40-ish years ago.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    notme2 said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.

    What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.

    If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.

    It was always the Labour plan from 2009 onwards, to salt the earth, ramp up what would have been temporary spending as part of the cycle to a structural increase in public spending knowing that i would be an utter mess rolling back. But they assumed that they would be back in again in 2015 at the latest...
    Then they shouldn't have elected Corbyn. Twice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.

    Jezza was unfortunately double booked again...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.

    Not just the Labour activists.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.

    Jezza was unfortunately double booked again...
    Funny, that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    kinabalu said:

    He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.

    Liddo was layable in size at 6 yesterday.

    I hope you crystallized plenty.
    I had some very nice choices to make yesterday.

    How did you play it?
This discussion has been closed.