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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is not an early April Fools’ Day story. Iain Duncan Smith

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited March 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is not an early April Fools’ Day story. Iain Duncan Smith looking to succeed Theresa May. I REPEAT THIS IS NOT AN EARLY APRIL FOOLS’ DAY STORY

Iain Duncan Smith eyes second spell as Tory leader as he considers throwing hat into ring to succeed PMhttps://t.co/m3mBiYerB0 pic.twitter.com/kI6FXinrRC

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    First.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited March 2019
    He at best misrepresented his past on his CV. He’s very,very stupid. He has actively lied about Brexit and consequences. He’s a charlatan with the charisma of a verucca.

    Any “supporter” can only be more stupid than him. Is that feasible?

    Finally, is the Mirror a credible source for Conservative stories?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited March 2019
    Best PB thread headline ever? :D
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Did the Mirror publish a day early in error btw?
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Your regular reminder that the Tory party leadership electoral system is not AV, quasi-AV or anything that looks like AV, due to consisting of multiple rounds, the last of which has a different electorate.

    Also if anyone can find anywhere to lay IDS at anything below about 50-1, then please do let the rest of us know.

    Otherwise, agree entirely.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243
    edited March 2019
    Have lurked here since George W was still in the White House. I meant to say Happy Birthday PB on the 15-year celebration thread but better late than never! You should all know at times of peak political uncertainty, this is the place I and many others come to see what’s really happening, even if we stay silent under the surface like a soviet sub..

    But I figured why not try and contribute for once. With this in mind, a question if I may:

    May’s Deal with the Backstop: requires continued regulatory alignment with the EU, possibly indefinitely. The indefinite practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals with the rest of the world, due to continued regulatory alignment on goods. But two-way zero tariffs and frictionless trade between the UK and EU.

    UK government’s formal interim plan for no deal: requires the unilateral setting of zero tariffs on most goods and the continued regulatory alignment with the EU. There is the likelihood of being charged tariffs to export to the EU possibly indefinitely and the practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals elsewhere, given unilateral zero tariffs and regulatory alignment with the EU.

    Just what am I missing? It looks to me that in either scenario we will need to implement a technical border solution in Ireland and agree some good faith measures, if we are to avoid Steve Baker’s state of slavery.

    For most of the last three years, we’ve had Brexiteers running the Brexit Dept (including the illustrious Mr Baker). Given that both May’s Plan A and the Brexiteers Plan B need this solution, what’s been done so far to implement it? Where’s the competitive tender for IT contracts? Where’s the pre-registration scheme for trusted traders? Where’s the official government forecasts on the value of smuggled goods?

    Or is the whole game that we never intended to have regulatory divergence in the first place? If so, then why not be honest and say the official policy is to stay in the customs union?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    ‪I am still trying to work out whether the Conservative party’s decision to destroy itself having delivered the country to the edge of disaster is an act of treason or patriotism. Either way, it’s grimly fascinating and darkly humorous.‬
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    edited March 2019
    matt said:

    He at best misrepresented his past on his CV. He’s very,very stupid. He has actively lied about Brexit and consequences. He’s a charlatan with the charisma of a verucca.

    Any “supporter” can only be more stupid than him. Is that feasible?

    Worked for Corbyn.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    edited March 2019
    On topic, it is Iain Duncan Smith's patriotic duty to disclose what he is smoking and where he gets his supplies.

    If we could flog five ounces of it in the Far East, we could clear the national debt.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    How far the Tories have sunk, even that this is a story.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    IanB2 said:

    How far the Tories have sunk, even that this is a story.

    In fairness Ian a party led by Vince Cable isn't in a position to criticise.

    As a country, our politics have sunk to the bottom of the Mindanao Trench, although it has left a huge amount of oily scum on the top.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good morning, everyone.

    Would IDS have been worse than May?

    F1: bit sleepy but will set about the latter half of the pre-race ramble presently.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108

    Would IDS have been worse than May?

    Yes.

    Would Corbyn be worse than either?

    Also yes.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    How far the Tories have sunk, even that this is a story.

    In fairness Ian a party led by Vince Cable isn't in a position to criticise.

    As a country, our politics have sunk to the bottom of the Mindanao Trench, although it has left a huge amount of oily scum on the top.
    True. If only politics weren't so discredited that even a new political party is tarnished before it starts.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    How far the Tories have sunk, even that this is a story.

    In fairness Ian a party led by Vince Cable isn't in a position to criticise.

    As a country, our politics have sunk to the bottom of the Mindanao Trench, although it has left a huge amount of oily scum on the top.
    True. If only politics weren't so discredited that even a new political party is tarnished before it starts.
    Agreed.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    moonshine said:

    Have lurked here since George W was still in the White House. I meant to say Happy Birthday PB on the 15-year celebration thread but better late than never! You should all know at times of peak political uncertainty, this is the place I and many others come to see what’s really happening, even if we stay silent under the surface like a soviet sub..

    But I figured why not try and contribute for once. With this in mind, a question if I may:

    May’s Deal with the Backstop: requires continued regulatory alignment with the EU, possibly indefinitely. The indefinite practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals with the rest of the world, due to continued regulatory alignment on goods. But two-way zero tariffs and frictionless trade between the UK and EU.

    UK government’s formal interim plan for no deal: requires the unilateral setting of zero tariffs on most goods and the continued regulatory alignment with the EU. There is the likelihood of being charged tariffs to export to the EU possibly indefinitely and the practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals elsewhere, given unilateral zero tariffs and regulatory alignment with the EU.

    Just what am I missing? It looks to me that in either scenario we will need to implement a technical border solution in Ireland and agree some good faith measures, if we are to avoid Steve Baker’s state of slavery.

    For most of the last three years, we’ve had Brexiteers running the Brexit Dept (including the illustrious Mr Baker). Given that both May’s Plan A and the Brexiteers Plan B need this solution, what’s been done so far to implement it? Where’s the competitive tender for IT contracts? Where’s the pre-registration scheme for trusted traders? Where’s the official government forecasts on the value of smuggled goods?

    Or is the whole game that we never intended to have regulatory divergence in the first place? If so, then why not be honest and say the official policy is to stay in the customs union?

    I agree with your line of thought, but we really do not have a plan.

    The logic of the WA and backstop is that the FTA will be so close to CU and single market that it is indistinguishable. That is the track of the next 20 months should it pass. I suppose we would be outside CAP and CFP in name, but in practice little will change.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    F1: got some interesting potential bets, but a bit sleepy so will wait a little while before deciding how to bet.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    ‪I am still trying to work out whether the Conservative party’s decision to destroy itself having delivered the country to the edge of disaster is an act of treason or patriotism. Either way, it’s grimly fascinating and darkly humorous.‬

    Destroy itself? We are getting a bit ahead of ourselves. *IF* the Tory party can survive this phase of Brexit without splitting them it's chances of winning an outright majority in the next GE would appear to be quite good.

    It only matters that they are rubbish if the alternative isn't even worse.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    FPT: first IDS and then a military coup?

    We then welcome the liberating Euro Army like London greeted King Billy in 1688...

    How is that boil lancing going for the PB Tories. Stock up on pocorn!
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,691
    edited March 2019
    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    edited March 2019
    Mr. 43, to be fair, voting to leave the EU also caused a smaller relative loss in 2011, and we bounced back from that.

    Edited extra bit: also, that graph has 'Doppelganger UK' ahead on the date of the referendum.
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    Over on CleggBook there is a thread talking about Labour and the general election. I've had to point out to Kali Ma worshippers that our leader is despised more than May (and she is truly hated) and that the next government will be decoded by which party haemmorages fewest millions of voters vs 2017 and where. I don't think it will be a popular observation...
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    AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    So MPs are going to give members a choice, if they have a choice at all, of IDS vs David Davis !! Very funny. That’ll solve a lot of problems.

    I desperately want shot of May but none of the obvious candidates are particularly inspiring. May has packed her Cabinet with mediocrities and non achievers. Boris will no doubt run but, despite the charisma and name recognition, he is seriously flawed on so many levels as to not be credible. I doubt his brother Joe would vote for him.

    The only way there can be a leadership contest with any prospect of not gifting power to Corbyn would be if Brexit’s course was at least settled. Fat chance. May has surpassed both Heath and Eden with her incompetence and failure.
  • Options
    @moonshine - excellent question. I always took the creation of the Fox Parody department as a joke to distract the worst of the Tory Eurohaters. The notion that we would be going out there with diverged standards and regulations from the EU and sign better trade deals than we already have was so absurd as to be an obvious joke.

    We wanted to not be involved in the political bits of the EU - and largely we had already secured opt outs. Leaving would insulate us from future plans and free us from CAP/CFP but surely sanely we would continue to benefit from the best fee trade deal possible. Except of course that Tory loons and their disaster capitalism profiteer backers have persuaded the stupid and gullible out there that free trade is great and the best way to secure free trade is to end free trade.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    Rawnsley: She got the keys to Number 10 because Tory MPs thought her a safe bet. She’s been anything but.

    One of her few friends once told me that Mrs May approached Brexit as if the country had set her a piece of fiendishly difficult homework. The downside of this doggedness has been inflexibility... She didn’t have the largeness of character and the breadth of political skills necessary to handle the vast complexity of the Brexit challenge, but then it is arguable that such a person does not exist.

    The Tory party is now preparing to find a new chief for its cannibalistic tribe. It will be convenient for a lot of people, especially those planning to contest for the corroded crown, to cast all the blame for 33 months of unrelenting and still unresolved chaos on the woman who will soon be leaving Number 10. Convenient, but not altogether accurate. The problem with the Conservative party is not Mrs May. The problem with the Conservative party is the Conservative party. The problem with Brexit is not Mrs May. The problem with Brexit is Brexit.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/31/theresa-may-dealt-worst-of-hands-played-it-spectacularly-badly
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    Suspect that is in part driven by uncertainty of where the UK will end up. Just think, without this meaningful vote we'd be months into the final trade negotiations by now.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    The fifteen minute CNN interview with Ken Clarke on this page is well worth a listen, if only for summarising the current mess in a calm level-headed way.

    He argues that both major parties are transforming and won't survive in their current form. Unfortunately the interview ends just as it gets particularly interesting.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/29/uk/brexit-luke-mcgee-analysis-intl-gbr/index.html
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    Suspect that is in part driven by uncertainty of where the UK will end up. Just think, without this meaningful vote we'd be months into the final trade negotiations by now.
    Its a nonsense stat, We are leaving, there never was a stay option. If my aunt had had ….
  • Options

    So MPs are going to give members a choice, if they have a choice at all, of IDS vs David Davis !! Very funny. That’ll solve a lot of problems.

    I desperately want shot of May but none of the obvious candidates are particularly inspiring. May has packed her Cabinet with mediocrities and non achievers. Boris will no doubt run but, despite the charisma and name recognition, he is seriously flawed on so many levels as to not be credible. I doubt his brother Joe would vote for him.

    The only way there can be a leadership contest with any prospect of not gifting power to Corbyn would be if Brexit’s course was at least settled. Fat chance. May has surpassed both Heath and Eden with her incompetence and failure.

    I am a big enthusiast for the government of national unity idea. Think about it - a confluence of the best of the Tory party with the crazies all banished, plus the best of the Labour Party with our crazies all banished.

    Because otherwise what's the solution? It's evident to anyone with a brain that a general election is near, with both parties led by a hated cretin and the voters as divided along Brexit lines as on old party lines. So think about what a "we tried to avoid a general election but need one sorry" campaign looks like. Tories still "led" by May, with multiple warring factions issuing their own policy declarations in direct contradiction of whatever manifesto May produces. Labour still led by Jezbollah, Watson leading a majority of MPs in open war against the Kali Ma who in turn are attacking Labour MPs on a massive scale whilst still hoping people will vote for them.

    A general election will be the end of our party system as it stands. So why not just accept that, bin the election that nobody wants and glue the sane politicians of any party together now
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    IDS is a leviathan. One of the true Tory greats. Please let him turn up the volume again.
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    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    Standing for the leadership to ensure a top job has happened before, but 19 Tory MPs doing it would look a bit strange.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    Suspect that is in part driven by uncertainty of where the UK will end up. Just think, without this meaningful vote we'd be months into the final trade negotiations by now.
    Yes, however bad things are, we should remember they can always get worse.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,335
    Artist said:

    Standing for the leadership to ensure a top job has happened before, but 19 Tory MPs doing it would look a bit strange.

    A bit strange means barely noticeable in our current politics.

  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    Good morning, everyone.

    Would IDS have been worse than May?

    F1: bit sleepy but will set about the latter half of the pre-race ramble presently.

    Yes.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    So MPs are going to give members a choice, if they have a choice at all, of IDS vs David Davis !! Very funny. That’ll solve a lot of problems.

    I desperately want shot of May but none of the obvious candidates are particularly inspiring. May has packed her Cabinet with mediocrities and non achievers. Boris will no doubt run but, despite the charisma and name recognition, he is seriously flawed on so many levels as to not be credible. I doubt his brother Joe would vote for him.

    The only way there can be a leadership contest with any prospect of not gifting power to Corbyn would be if Brexit’s course was at least settled. Fat chance. May has surpassed both Heath and Eden with her incompetence and failure.

    I am a big enthusiast for the government of national unity idea. Think about it - a confluence of the best of the Tory party with the crazies all banished, plus the best of the Labour Party with our crazies all banished.

    Because otherwise what's the solution? It's evident to anyone with a brain that a general election is near, with both parties led by a hated cretin and the voters as divided along Brexit lines as on old party lines. So think about what a "we tried to avoid a general election but need one sorry" campaign looks like. Tories still "led" by May, with multiple warring factions issuing their own policy declarations in direct contradiction of whatever manifesto May produces. Labour still led by Jezbollah, Watson leading a majority of MPs in open war against the Kali Ma who in turn are attacking Labour MPs on a massive scale whilst still hoping people will vote for them.

    A general election will be the end of our party system as it stands. So why not just accept that, bin the election that nobody wants and glue the sane politicians of any party together now
    The GoNU, like the coalition, will crush whoever is the junior partner. The electorate will ask the question “why vote for X, when they support Y?” The opposition role is the most crucial one in politics. If Watson should be working on anything, it’s about deepening the talent on Labours front bench, so it is seen as ready to take over.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    Load of bollocks. It's impossible to measure a road not taken.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,335
    Jonathan said:

    IDS is a leviathan. One of the true Tory greats. Please let him turn up the volume again.

    His leadership abilities are more akin to Tennyson’s Kraken in its ‘ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep’.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    edited March 2019
    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    Load of bollocks. It's impossible to measure a road not taken.
    I've been wasting my time on Google maps, then.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited March 2019
    Mr 43,

    Who are CER?

    I know economics isn't proper science, but it's often useful to give the providence of the forecasts. Have they expertise? Have they used established methods? Have they a track record? Are they independent? Without that information, I may as well quote what a little old lady told me at the post office queue.


    I did google it, but it seems to one of many think-tanks, and its website says "The CER is pro-European but not uncritical."

    Edit: Obviously error bars aren't allowed when you've no idea.

  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Let all the poison that lurks in the mud, hatch out.
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    Jonathan said:

    So MPs are going to give members a choice, if they have a choice at all, of IDS vs David Davis !! Very funny. That’ll solve a lot of problems.

    I desperately want shot of May but none of the obvious candidates are particularly inspiring. May has packed her Cabinet with mediocrities and non achievers. Boris will no doubt run but, despite the charisma and name recognition, he is seriously flawed on so many levels as to not be credible. I doubt his brother Joe would vote for him.

    The only way there can be a leadership contest with any prospect of not gifting power to Corbyn would be if Brexit’s course was at least settled. Fat chance. May has surpassed both Heath and Eden with her incompetence and failure.

    I am a big enthusiast for the government of national unity idea. Think about it - a confluence of the best of the Tory party with the crazies all banished, plus the best of the Labour Party with our crazies all banished.

    Because otherwise what's the solution? It's evident to anyone with a brain that a general election is near, with both parties led by a hated cretin and the voters as divided along Brexit lines as on old party lines. So think about what a "we tried to avoid a general election but need one sorry" campaign looks like. Tories still "led" by May, with multiple warring factions issuing their own policy declarations in direct contradiction of whatever manifesto May produces. Labour still led by Jezbollah, Watson leading a majority of MPs in open war against the Kali Ma who in turn are attacking Labour MPs on a massive scale whilst still hoping people will vote for them.

    A general election will be the end of our party system as it stands. So why not just accept that, bin the election that nobody wants and glue the sane politicians of any party together now
    The GoNU, like the coalition, will crush whoever is the junior partner. The electorate will ask the question “why vote for X, when they support Y?” The opposition role is the most crucial one in politics. If Watson should be working on anything, it’s about deepening the talent on Labours front bench, so it is seen as ready to take over.
    Watson has masses of talent on his front bench. Starmer. Cooper. Benn. Beckett. They are ready to take over once the divorce happens
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Betting post

    F1: pre-race ramble is up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2019/03/bahrain-pre-race-2019.html

    I've backed Sainz to win his group at 4.33. The others are Magnussen, Raikkonen, and Gasly.

    Magnussen and Sainz had practically identical times throughout qualifying, but I think the Haas might benefit relatively more from its Ferrari engine's 'party mode', which will unwind during the race to the advantage of Sainz's Renault-powered McLaren. Raikkonen is in a similar boat to Magnussen. Gasly starts 13th in a theoretically much faster car and could benefit from choice of tyres, but he's still some way further back.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    OT but can George Osborne fans look to the left of the graph and insert their own Ed Balls flatlining hand gestures?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Have lurked here since George W was still in the White House. I meant to say Happy Birthday PB on the 15-year celebration thread but better late than never! You should all know at times of peak political uncertainty, this is the place I and many others come to see what’s really happening, even if we stay silent under the surface like a soviet sub..

    But I figured why not try and contribute for once. With this in mind, a question if I may:

    May’s Deal with the Backstop: requires continued regulatory alignment with the EU, possibly indefinitely. The indefinite practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals with the rest of the world, due to continued regulatory alignment on goods. But two-way zero tariffs and frictionless trade between the UK and EU.

    UK government’s formal interim plan for no deal: requires the unilateral setting of zero tariffs on most goods and the continued regulatory alignment with the EU. There is the likelihood of being charged tariffs to export to the EU possibly indefinitely and the practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals elsewhere, given unilateral zero tariffs and regulatory alignment with the EU.

    Just what am I missing? It looks to me that in either scenario we will need to implement a technical border solution in Ireland and agree some good faith measures, if we are to avoid Steve Baker’s state of slavery.

    For most of the last three years, we’ve had Brexiteers running the Brexit Dept (including the illustrious Mr Baker). Given that both May’s Plan A and the Brexiteers Plan B need this solution, what’s been done so far to implement it? Where’s the competitive tender for IT contracts? Where’s the pre-registration scheme for trusted traders? Where’s the official government forecasts on the value of smuggled goods?

    Or is the whole game that we never intended to have regulatory divergence in the first place? If so, then why not be honest and say the official policy is to stay in the customs union?

    I agree with your line of thought, but we really do not have a plan.

    The logic of the WA and backstop is that the FTA will be so close to CU and single market that it is indistinguishable. That is the track of the next 20 months should it pass. I suppose we would be outside CAP and CFP in name, but in practice little will change.

    Yep - if the loons are unhappy with the level of the UK's caving so far, they ain't seen nothing yet! This is all the entirely predictable consequence of what they advocated.

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    moonshine said:

    Have lurked here since George W was still in the White House. I meant to say Happy Birthday PB on the 15-year celebration thread but better late than never! You should all know at times of peak political uncertainty, this is the place I and many others come to see what’s really happening, even if we stay silent under the surface like a soviet sub..

    But I figured why not try and contribute for once. With this in mind, a question if I may:

    May’s Deal with the Backstop: requires continued regulatory alignment with the EU, possibly indefinitely. The indefinite practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals with the rest of the world, due to continued regulatory alignment on goods. But two-way zero tariffs and frictionless trade between the UK and EU.

    UK government’s formal interim plan for no deal: requires the unilateral setting of zero tariffs on most goods and the continued regulatory alignment with the EU. There is the likelihood of being charged tariffs to export to the EU possibly indefinitely and the practical unlikelihood of signing more advantageous free trade deals elsewhere, given unilateral zero tariffs and regulatory alignment with the EU.

    Just what am I missing? It looks to me that in either scenario we will need to implement a technical border solution in Ireland and agree some good faith measures, if we are to avoid Steve Baker’s state of slavery.

    For most of the last three years, we’ve had Brexiteers running the Brexit Dept (including the illustrious Mr Baker). Given that both May’s Plan A and the Brexiteers Plan B need this solution, what’s been done so far to implement it? Where’s the competitive tender for IT contracts? Where’s the pre-registration scheme for trusted traders? Where’s the official government forecasts on the value of smuggled goods?

    Or is the whole game that we never intended to have regulatory divergence in the first place? If so, then why not be honest and say the official policy is to stay in the customs union?

    1. Welcome;
    2. Yes; because
    3. No deal is simply out of the question.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    Load of bollocks. It's impossible to measure a road not taken.
    Yes and those are the bollocks that if my aunt had had, sh'ed have been my uncle.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    IDS is a leviathan. One of the true Tory greats. Please let him turn up the volume again.

    His leadership abilities are more akin to Tennyson’s Kraken in its ‘ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep’.
    IDS's Tories did well at the ballot box. IDS's problem was that he got thumped at PMQs every week. It was Conservative MPs, not the voters, who did for him. The plotters' choice, Michael Howard, did not lead the party back to power.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    That is a wonderfully mad-looking photo of IDS.

    It should be captioned "Iain Duncan Smith eyes something that he can see - or thinks he can see - crawling across the carpet towards him."
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2019
    <<Watson has masses of talent on his front bench. Starmer. Cooper. Benn. Beckett. They are ready to take over once the divorce happens>>

    Starmer is more likely to be, like Miliband, one of the very few figures who could hold the party together in a crisis, I would say, holding the more uncompromising ends of both the left and right of the party at bay.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited March 2019
    Mr B2,

    Did google maps predict the 2008 recession?

    For interest's sake can they predict what would have happened if Jezza had won the 2017 GE? Sorry to tease, but this is irresistible.


    Edit: I'm asking if CER could predict that? I'm sure they can and will if asked, but would you believe it?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    On topic

    While of course this is hands down the most April Fools Day story that is not actually an April Fool let's not forget that prior to his first stint none other than The Economist tipped him for the job.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    CD13 said:

    Mr B2,

    Did google maps predict the 2008 recession?

    For interest's sake can they predict what would have happened if Jezza had won the 2017 GE? Sorry to tease, but this is irresistible.


    Edit: I'm asking if CER could predict that? I'm sure they can and will if asked, but would you believe it?

    Does it matter? The CER graph only shows years that have already happened. Prediction is not involved.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    What hope have we of spotting the real April Fool stories tomorrow?
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr 43,

    I think I might have worked out the reasoning behind the impressive graph you quoted from CER.


    A publicity stunt. Am I right?
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    What is “doppelgänger U.K.” and why does it not align with U.K. pre referendum?

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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    Scott_P said:
    Somebody on ConHome is seriously advocating him for leader.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr L,

    "The CER graph only shows years that have already happened. Prediction is not involved."

    Only in a Multiverse. I had a e-novel published last year by Wild Wolf called "Our foolish ways" which concerned a multiverse. It was in the fiction category.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Chris said:

    That is a wonderfully mad-looking photo of IDS.

    It should be captioned "Iain Duncan Smith eyes something that he can see - or thinks he can see - crawling across the carpet towards him."

    Really? I would have said he looked comparatively sane in that one myself.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2019
    Steve Baker seems to think he's rallying the troops for battle before Agincourt again ; a common Tory delusion.
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    <<Watson has masses of talent on his front bench. Starmer. Cooper. Benn. Beckett. They are ready to take over once the divorce happens>>

    Starmer is more likely to be, like Miliband, one of the very few figures who could hold the party together in a crisis, I would say, holding the more uncompromising ends of both the left and right of the party at bay.

    The uncompromising right has left. The uncompromising left is the problem. Replace almost the entire front bench (keeping Starmer and Thornberry only) with the talent in the back, led by Watson, and the Labour Party suddenly looks like a government in waiting. It can't happen inside the Labour Party because He is Flawless and Resplendent. Just as the likes of Grieve Clarke and Soubry apparently have no role to play in the foaming-dog-fever ConKIP party.

    So we need to bypass both front benches and glue together MPs with brains and a heart.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    And that's still not as batshit crazy as the Commons voting down every single last option to move forward.
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    Scott_P said:
    Like so many on Brexit, Baker is another one of many who have completely lost it
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    Does anyone know whether the Deltapoll switcharound from a seven point Tory lead to five point Labour lead is the biggest turnaround in VI polling in a single month? Seems to me very likely.
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    TheAncientMarinerTheAncientMariner Posts: 227
    edited March 2019

    FF43 said:

    The UK economy has lost 2.5% of its economy thanks to Brexit, according to this research that broadly matches others. The £360 million a week hit to public finances means the entire "Brexiteers dividend" had disappeared. We will probably continue to pay the EU anyway. And if course we haven't left yet...

    In my place six jobs that were going to be created will now go to France, meaning six young people who would have had good, not fancy jobs now won't.

    https://twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1111915972632420353

    OT but can George Osborne fans look to the left of the graph and insert their own Ed Balls flatlining hand gestures?
    It compares the UK with some other countries - notably the US where Mr Trump's policies are creating growth north of 2% a year and was over 4% for a time.

    "(principally the US, Germany, and Luxembourg). As these countries did not hold a referendum in 2016, we can compare them to the UK to assess the cost of Brexit. "

    The US DID hold a referendum in 2016 - Democrat or Republican?

    In other words Bull***t.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    "The CER graph only shows years that have already happened. Prediction is not involved."

    Only in a Multiverse. I had a e-novel published last year by Wild Wolf called "Our foolish ways" which concerned a multiverse. It was in the fiction category.

    The CER graph shows what already happened in this universe. Brexit bad. Osborne bad. Multiverse irrelevant.

    OT re e-novels. Did you see the Guardian's article on plagiarism over the weekend?
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/28/plagiarism-book-stuffing-clickfarms-the-rotten-side-of-self-publishing
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited March 2019
    Mr L,

    It shows what it thinks would have happened had we taken a different course. Balls and uncles come to mind.

    PS My stories may be sh*te but they are my own work.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Somebody on ConHome is seriously advocating him for leader.
    He'd be a better choice than Boris
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    It confirms what we already knew about the ERG. They know nothing and cannot do even elementary research.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    As we all know, Bercow is a stickler for arcane rules and precedent.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    Cometh the hour cometh the quiet man! :D
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    I am going to pose a question as I do not know the answer

    There is a wide held view that no deal will not happen, but that contradicts many including the EU

    So, in order for no deal to be stopped

    TM WDA is approved before 12th April and if not

    I assume legislation is required to pass both the HOC and HOL and needs royal assent

    Furthermore, is legislation required for the UK to take part in the EU elections

    I am very interested in fellow posters comments and knowledge
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2019

    <<Watson has masses of talent on his front bench. Starmer. Cooper. Benn. Beckett. They are ready to take over once the divorce happens>>

    Starmer is more likely to be, like Miliband, one of the very few figures who could hold the party together in a crisis, I would say, holding the more uncompromising ends of both the left and right of the party at bay.

    The uncompromising right has left. The uncompromising left is the problem. Replace almost the entire front bench (keeping Starmer and Thornberry only) with the talent in the back, led by Watson, and the Labour Party suddenly looks like a government in waiting. It can't happen inside the Labour Party because He is Flawless and Resplendent. Just as the likes of Grieve Clarke and Soubry apparently have no role to play in the foaming-dog-fever ConKIP party.

    So we need to bypass both front benches and glue together MPs with brains and a heart.
    I partly agree, and partly not. There are still some figures on the right of the Labour parliamentary party who, while sharing different delusions from the most fruity Corbynite ultras, are still in denial about the unpopularity of 1997 Labour policies in the present time. Many of these were opposed to Miliband when in power in the party, but I think would share a unique tolerance of figures like him or Starmer to lead the party in a time of crisis.

    A Miliband or Starmer leadership following Corbyn might try and retain some of these Left members of the frontbench while bringing in some 1997-2010 era members too, for instance.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    It shows what it thinks would have happened had we taken a different course. Balls and uncles come to mind.

    PS My stories may be sh*te but they are my own work.

    You have misunderstood the CER graph. The comparison is with the actual performance of a basket of other countries used to model our own economy.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    IanB2 said:

    Does anyone know whether the Deltapoll switcharound from a seven point Tory lead to five point Labour lead is the biggest turnaround in VI polling in a single month? Seems to me very likely.

    October 1992 first poll level pegging, last poll Tories 13 points behind (and in one they were 22 points behind - in the equivalent poll the month before the gap was just five points).
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    It forms part of the flush mechanism of Bercows personal outside toilet.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Jonathan said:

    It forms part of the flush mechanism of Bercows personal outside toilet.
    There are no rats, only a few large mace...
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,821
    BLUKIP leader next?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Labour has done extremely well in the last few months by not having a policy. That's been, with hindsight, the only reason the party hasn't split five ways instead of three.

    It's still immoral, cowardly and stupid, but I must admit having been a sceptic at first politically it was a smart move.
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    Thornberry on Sophy as evasive as ever and clearly does not understand, as so many, the difference between the WDA and the PD. She wants a custom unions but that would be in the non binding PD and not the WDA and could be binned in future UK - EU negotiations

    All mps and the public need to understand that on the WDA TM is correct.

    Everything needed to leave the EU is in the WDA without which we do not leave
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    It shows what it thinks would have happened had we taken a different course. Balls and uncles come to mind.

    PS My stories may be sh*te but they are my own work.

    You have misunderstood the CER graph. The comparison is with the actual performance of a basket of other countries used to model our own economy.
    Nobody is seriously claiming Brexit has aided our economy, and there’s decent enough evidence of resultant economic slowdown, yet for some reason PB’s finest wish to attack this graph?

    It must truly be embarrassing to have voted for Brexit.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,335

    Betting post

    F1: pre-race ramble is up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2019/03/bahrain-pre-race-2019.html

    I've backed Sainz to win his group at 4.33. The others are Magnussen, Raikkonen, and Gasly.

    Magnussen and Sainz had practically identical times throughout qualifying, but I think the Haas might benefit relatively more from its Ferrari engine's 'party mode', which will unwind during the race to the advantage of Sainz's Renault-powered McLaren. Raikkonen is in a similar boat to Magnussen. Gasly starts 13th in a theoretically much faster car and could benefit from choice of tyres, but he's still some way further back.

    Interesting write up, MD.
    After you proved me wrong about Leclerc in FP1, it was good to see him win pole, as I’d suggested this was the better bet. Profitable for both of us, so far.

    I’m not convinced that Mercedes have much of an engine advantage in qualifying, if any at all, so your race calculations might be sllightly skewed. The silver team certainly sounded more confident about having a chance in the race.
    I think Ferrari will still probably win, but Hamilton’s odds look a bit too long to me.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    edited March 2019

    Thornberry on Sophy as evasive as ever and clearly does not understand, as so many, the difference between the WDA and the PD. She wants a custom unions but that would be in the non binding PD and not the WDA and could be binned in future UK - EU negotiations

    All mps and the public need to understand that on the WDA TM is correct.

    Everything needed to leave the EU is in the WDA without which we do not leave

    Or we leave with no deal, which I fully expect to be bad news (if not quite the extinction level economic calamity most people are predicting). That is the simple point those who vote down the deal in an apparent wish to Revoke appear incapable of getting their heads round.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    edited March 2019
    For the Hamilton family, the Mayor of London is a Muslim and "this is a problem". "He's trying to ban the sale of bacon. We want him hanged and cut into pieces, "says Matilda (right).

    https://twitter.com/icilondres/status/1111669862617808896?s=21
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108

    For the Hamilton family, the Mayor of London is a Muslim and "this is a problem". "He's trying to ban the sale of bacon. We want him hanged and cut into pieces, "says Matilda (right).

    https://twitter.com/icilondres/status/1111669862617808896?s=21

    Riiiight...

    I deserve a lot of credit here for not making an extremely tasteless pun about assault.
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    ydoethur said:

    Thornberry on Sophy as evasive as ever and clearly does not understand, as so many, the difference between the WDA and the PD. She wants a custom unions but that would be in the non binding PD and not the WDA and could be binned in future UK - EU negotiations

    All mps and the public need to understand that on the WDA TM is correct.

    Everything needed to leave the EU is in the WDA without which we do not leave

    Or we leave with no deal, which I fully expect to be bad news (if not quite the extinction level economic calamity most people are predicting). That is the simple point those who vote down the deal in an apparent wish to Revoke appear incapable of getting their heads round.
    No deal is getting very real and very imminent.

    It will happen in 12 days if we do not stop it and I am not at all sure without TM WDA we can stop it

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    For the Hamilton family, the Mayor of London is a Muslim and "this is a problem". "He's trying to ban the sale of bacon. We want him hanged and cut into pieces, "says Matilda (right).

    https://twitter.com/icilondres/status/1111669862617808896?s=21

    Basic breach of GDPR regulations there - unless the family gave their permission to have their names plastered over the media.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. B, what odds did you get on Leclerc for pole, and when did you bet?

    Pre-practice I think Hamilton was about evens and Bottas 3.5, and I'm interested to know what the Ferraris, especially Leclerc who I think was significantly longer than Vettel, were.

    We only have the one data point for qualifying to race performance gain/loss, so today's race will be useful in that regard. I was pretty tempted by the 2.75 on Hamilton to beat Vettel.

    Mr. Walker, bloody hell.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    ydoethur said:

    Thornberry on Sophy as evasive as ever and clearly does not understand, as so many, the difference between the WDA and the PD. She wants a custom unions but that would be in the non binding PD and not the WDA and could be binned in future UK - EU negotiations

    All mps and the public need to understand that on the WDA TM is correct.

    Everything needed to leave the EU is in the WDA without which we do not leave

    Or we leave with no deal, which I fully expect to be bad news (if not quite the extinction level economic calamity most people are predicting). That is the simple point those who vote down the deal in an apparent wish to Revoke appear incapable of getting their heads round.
    No deal is getting very real and very imminent.

    It will happen in 12 days if we do not stop it and I am not at all sure without TM WDA we can stop it

    Oh yes.

    The EU are now expecting No Deal.
    And I think you are right Big G that unless we can pass something in the next 12 days, including, if necessary the legislation enabling EU elections, we are going over Niagara sans barrel.
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    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    It shows what it thinks would have happened had we taken a different course. Balls and uncles come to mind.

    PS My stories may be sh*te but they are my own work.

    You have misunderstood the CER graph. The comparison is with the actual performance of a basket of other countries used to model our own economy.
    Nobody is seriously claiming Brexit has aided our economy, and there’s decent enough evidence of resultant economic slowdown, yet for some reason PB’s finest wish to attack this graph?

    It must truly be embarrassing to have voted for Brexit.
    It must be totally embarrasing to take the CER graph at face value without delving into the source of their data. This is a fine example of cherry-picking your data.

    Since Jul 2016 the German Economy has grown by 4% https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth The UK by 4.2% https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth
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    ydoethur said:

    Thornberry on Sophy as evasive as ever and clearly does not understand, as so many, the difference between the WDA and the PD. She wants a custom unions but that would be in the non binding PD and not the WDA and could be binned in future UK - EU negotiations

    All mps and the public need to understand that on the WDA TM is correct.

    Everything needed to leave the EU is in the WDA without which we do not leave

    Or we leave with no deal, which I fully expect to be bad news (if not quite the extinction level economic calamity most people are predicting). That is the simple point those who vote down the deal in an apparent wish to Revoke appear incapable of getting their heads round.
    No deal is getting very real and very imminent.

    It will happen in 12 days if we do not stop it and I am not at all sure without TM WDA we can stop it

    Oh yes.

    The EU are now expecting No Deal.
    And I think you are right Big G that unless we can pass something in the next 12 days, including, if necessary the legislation enabling EU elections, we are going over Niagara sans barrel.
    To be fair I have been posing the question of the legislation needed for stopping no deal and taking part in the EU elections and so far I have not heard of an answer

    We may have different views but on this I am sure we are both very worried and if it happens furious with all our political class
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Well, the Ukrainians appear to be cutting out the middleman and going for an actual comedian.

    Ukraine election: Comedian is front-runner ahead of first round
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47763176

    Jasper Carrott for PM? He couldn't be worse than this lot.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    F1: Hulkenberg's weirdly slow qualifying performance was due to an engine malfunction that put him into 'safe mode'.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Good choice. Cometh the hour cometh the man.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    It shows what it thinks would have happened had we taken a different course. Balls and uncles come to mind.

    PS My stories may be sh*te but they are my own work.

    You have misunderstood the CER graph. The comparison is with the actual performance of a basket of other countries used to model our own economy.
    Nobody is seriously claiming Brexit has aided our economy, and there’s decent enough evidence of resultant economic slowdown, yet for some reason PB’s finest wish to attack this graph?

    It must truly be embarrassing to have voted for Brexit.
    It must be totally embarrasing to take the CER graph at face value without delving into the source of their data. This is a fine example of cherry-picking your data.

    Since Jul 2016 the German Economy has grown by 4% https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth The UK by 4.2% https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth
    So what? If our economy were in lock-step with the German economy, we'd have been able to join the Euro. It is you who is cherry-picking data. The deviation is real. The interpretation, or if you prefer, the speculation that this is due to Brexit could, however, be wrong.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,335

    I am going to pose a question as I do not know the answer

    There is a wide held view that no deal will not happen, but that contradicts many including the EU

    So, in order for no deal to be stopped

    TM WDA is approved before 12th April and if not

    I assume legislation is required to pass both the HOC and HOL and needs royal assent

    Furthermore, is legislation required for the UK to take part in the EU elections

    I am very interested in fellow posters comments and knowledge

    I disclaim any knowledge, but it seems to me that even if a significant majority in the House can agree on a serious alternative to May’s WA, it would need at a minimum to be able to demonstrate to the EU that the majority is sustainable - if there were to be any chance of a further extension from the EU.

    Passing legislation into law without the co-operation of the government simply isnt going to happen in the next ten days. And almost certainly isn’t, even with it.

    In other words, any significant alternative needs the current government’s active approval, or a new government commanding a majority in the existing parliament, by the end of the week.


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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    ydoethur said:

    Well, the Ukrainians appear to be cutting out the middleman and going for an actual comedian.

    Ukraine election: Comedian is front-runner ahead of first round
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47763176

    Jasper Carrott for PM? He couldn't be worse than this lot.

    The Americans beat the Ukranians by electing a bloke off the telly following the success of their earlier bloke off the films. As ever, London was ahead of the rest of the country when it elected the clown panellist from Have I Got News For You?
This discussion has been closed.