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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If we get to a Peterborough by-election it’s going to be a cor

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited April 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If we get to a Peterborough by-election it’s going to be a corker of a battle

Currently, as I’m sure we are all aware, there is a recall petition taking place in Peterborough seeking to get a by-election following the conviction and jailing of the incumbent MP who won the seat for LAB from the Tories at the last general election.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    First :o
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    First like Keir Starmer telling us no deal is on the way.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    edited April 2019
    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571
    First, like the other three before me.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Chris said:

    First like Keir Starmer telling us no deal is on the way.

    OK Keir Starmer wasn't quite the first to tell us that.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    So much fake news in the comments.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    RobD said:

    So much fake news in the comments.

    A lot of fake comments in the news too.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,826
    edited April 2019
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    First like Keir Starmer telling us no deal is on the way.

    OK Keir Starmer wasn't quite the first to tell us that.
    RobD is Keir Starmer
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571
    I know there's a recall petition running in Peterborough but can someone remind me of the criteria required to get one started?
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    I know there's a recall petition running in Peterborough but can someone remind me of the criteria required to get one started?

    I think it's a conviction with a prison sentence, but with a sentence less than 12 months - more than 12 months and a by-election is automatic. Another way is if the Commons suspends the MP for ten sitting days or fourteen calendar days.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,639

    I know there's a recall petition running in Peterborough but can someone remind me of the criteria required to get one started?

    Convictionwith a sentence for under a year after any appeals have been refused, and any conviction for expenses fraud, whatever the sentence, and suspension from the House for a certain number of days. May be more.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571

    I know there's a recall petition running in Peterborough but can someone remind me of the criteria required to get one started?

    I think it's a conviction with a prison sentence, but with a sentence less than 12 months - more than 12 months and a by-election is automatic. Another way is if the Commons suspends the MP for ten sitting days or fourteen calendar days.
    Thanks
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    Wonder whether Fiona will stand as an Indy? :D
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097
    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited April 2019
    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    I know there's a recall petition running in Peterborough but can someone remind me of the criteria required to get one started?

    The wonder of Wikipedia suggests that the offending MP must've received at least one of the following penalties:

    + A custodial prison sentence of a year or less—longer sentences automatically disqualify MPs without need for a petition;

    + Suspension from the House of at least 10 sitting days or 14 calendar days, following a report by the Committee on Standards;

    + A conviction for providing false or misleading expenses claims.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571

    I know there's a recall petition running in Peterborough but can someone remind me of the criteria required to get one started?

    The wonder of Wikipedia suggests that the offending MP must've received at least one of the following penalties:

    + A custodial prison sentence of a year or less—longer sentences automatically disqualify MPs without need for a petition;

    + Suspension from the House of at least 10 sitting days or 14 calendar days, following a report by the Committee on Standards;

    + A conviction for providing false or misleading expenses claims.
    Thanks - should have looked on Wiki :smile:
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    JackW said:

    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:

    The Tories would actually quite like to win this seat... ;)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,639

    I know there's a recall petition running in Peterborough but can someone remind me of the criteria required to get one started?

    The wonder of Wikipedia suggests that the offending MP must've received at least one of the following penalties:

    + A custodial prison sentence of a year or less—longer sentences automatically disqualify MPs without need for a petition;

    + Suspension from the House of at least 10 sitting days or 14 calendar days, following a report by the Committee on Standards;

    + A conviction for providing false or misleading expenses claims.
    Happily we've now had, or are about to have, examples of all three.

    Onasanya for the first, Paisley Jr for the second, and Davies for the third
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    edited April 2019
    JackW said:

    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:

    With tim as Labour candidate so that they can resume their PB interaction :wink:
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571
    JackW said:

    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:

    He's not the Tory candidate though is he.
  • Options
    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    If a recall petition can nearly hit 10% in a country where politics is totally moribund, it should pass comfortably in Peterborough.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,639
    GIN1138 said:

    Wonder whether Fiona will stand as an Indy? :D

    Didn't it used to be the case that MPs would receive more of a parachute payment if they lost an election than if they merely resigned it, encouraging some to stand in no hoper seats to lose but get more of a payout?

    Not sure if that is correct, and if it was if it is still the case, and if so whether it would apply here since while she can stand in the by-election should the recall succeed, technically she will have vacated the seat already. But given more money is never to be forsaken, if it is true she will stand I am sure.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,826

    JackW said:

    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:

    With tim as Labour candidate so that they can resume their PB interaction :wink:
    Tim is TIG
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    First like Keir Starmer telling us no deal is on the way.

    OK Keir Starmer wasn't quite the first to tell us that.
    RobD is Keir Starmer
    Confirmed.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Which is why I am less than sanguine about no deal. The politicians and civil service are unfit for purpose.
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    I visited Peterborough a few months ago one Saturday. The thing that struck me was the number of Eastern European languages I heard in the city centre. I can imagine that to certain members of the local population, this can feel like an overwhelming sense of change or even feeling like an invasion! With this in mind I wonder what a Brexit party/BNP in blazer party would achieve in a by-election? If the Brexit party/BNP in blazers party were to contest the election the best chance of success might be Nigel Farage as candidate. A note of caution on Eastern European numbers in Peterborough maybe they might not live in the city merely visiting there to spend their hard earned money.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Ah, so you are saying that Twitter has frothed itself into a rage over a question of a technical definition?

    Certainly plausible.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,639

    With this in mind I wonder what a Brexit party/BNP in blazer party would achieve in a by-election?

    Prevent the Tories from winning?
  • Options
    JackW said:

    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:

    Oh god, he's not the Tory PPC for this seat, is he? I don't think my blood pressure could take it.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited April 2019
    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Wonder whether Fiona will stand as an Indy? :D

    Didn't it used to be the case that MPs would receive more of a parachute payment if they lost an election than if they merely resigned it, encouraging some to stand in no hoper seats to lose but get more of a payout?

    Not sure if that is correct, and if it was if it is still the case, and if so whether it would apply here since while she can stand in the by-election should the recall succeed, technically she will have vacated the seat already. But given more money is never to be forsaken, if it is true she will stand I am sure.
    It is why Danczuk stood, so I'm told.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    JackW said:

    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:

    Oh god, he's not the Tory PPC for this seat, is he? I don't think my blood pressure could take it.
    No a new PPC is in place.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046

    I visited Peterborough a few months ago one Saturday. The thing that struck me was the number of Eastern European languages I heard in the city centre. I can imagine that to certain members of the local population, this can feel like an overwhelming sense of change or even feeling like an invasion! With this in mind I wonder what a Brexit party/BNP in blazer party would achieve in a by-election? If the Brexit party/BNP in blazers party were to contest the election the best chance of success might be Nigel Farage as candidate. A note of caution on Eastern European numbers in Peterborough maybe they might not live in the city merely visiting there to spend their hard earned money.

    Go to any working class town in the Midlands and North and you will hear those Eastern European languages.

    That you were struck by the experience in Peterborough strikes me as surprising.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Okay, but wait a bit. The answer to the original question only said Parliamentary and local elections. It doesn't mention referendums at all.

    Now the franchise for all referendums in the UK has previously always been set as identical to the Parliamentary franchise (though for the Scottish indyref that was the franchise for the Scottish Parliament which is different to that for the Westminster Parliament), so the right for Irish citizens to vote in UK referendums is implied.

    Bradley's latest answer muddies the water quite considerably and it does raise the prospect of Irish citizens losing the right to vote in future referendums, including future NI border polls if it is not clarified/corrected.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    I hope you're right Taxman!
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Ah, so you are saying that Twitter has frothed itself into a rage over a question of a technical definition?

    Certainly plausible.
    Even so. If it is a written answer, on a matter of such delicacy, it should be made clear that it is a mere technicality.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    The former Kipper Patrick O'Flynn is the SDP candidate in Peterborough. If UKIP and the Brexit party also stand it will be a crowded field of Brexiteers.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    kle4 said:

    With this in mind I wonder what a Brexit party/BNP in blazer party would achieve in a by-election?

    Prevent the Tories from winning?
    Depends on how the votes fragment. It is possible for the Tories and Labour to both leak votes to the Brexit/BNP in blazer party and the Tories win by not losing as many votes as Labour. Alternatively, Labour might win again if they manage to get their vote out. I suppose it will depend on whether Revoke or Extend Article 50 are induced.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,097

    I visited Peterborough a few months ago one Saturday. The thing that struck me was the number of Eastern European languages I heard in the city centre. I can imagine that to certain members of the local population, this can feel like an overwhelming sense of change or even feeling like an invasion! With this in mind I wonder what a Brexit party/BNP in blazer party would achieve in a by-election? If the Brexit party/BNP in blazers party were to contest the election the best chance of success might be Nigel Farage as candidate. A note of caution on Eastern European numbers in Peterborough maybe they might not live in the city merely visiting there to spend their hard earned money.

    I hope you are right, but I don't believe so.

    I think if Theresa May can't bring herself to agree to an entirely non-binding political formula - even by way of honouring a vote of the Commons rather than by agreement with the Opposition - then she won't revoke Brexit in a million years.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,113

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    I don’t think so. I think the choice for May is no deal and destroy the Union or revoke and destroy the Tory Party. Her loyalty to party is stronger - just. It’s been the centre of her world since she was a teenager.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    dixiedean said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Ah, so you are saying that Twitter has frothed itself into a rage over a question of a technical definition?

    Certainly plausible.
    Even so. If it is a written answer, on a matter of such delicacy, it should be made clear that it is a mere technicality.
    Yes, I've looked at the two answers now and the second does not clarify the first but makes the situation even less clear.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571

    The former Kipper Patrick O'Flynn is the SDP candidate in Peterborough. If UKIP and the Brexit party also stand it will be a crowded field of Brexiteers.

    A lot will depend on wht stage we have reached with Brexit. We could be out with No Deal or with May's Deal, heading for a Referendum, Revoked... or still requesting extensions.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
  • Options

    JackW said:

    Just a Peterborough by-election thought to cheer PBers as the weekend nears :

    Stewart Jackson .... :smiley:

    Oh god, he's not the Tory PPC for this seat, is he? I don't think my blood pressure could take it.
    No a new PPC is in place.
    Phew. He's an absolute Chope of a man.

    I just amused/horrified myself by a quick browse of Stewart Jackson's greatest hits on Wikipedia. its a wild ride:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Jackson
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    DougSeal said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    I don’t think so. I think the choice for May is no deal and destroy the Union or revoke and destroy the Tory Party. Her loyalty to party is stronger - just. It’s been the centre of her world since she was a teenager.
    Ruth Davidson is scheduled to come back from maternity leave at the beginning of May. I wonder what she thinks about all this.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571
    DougSeal said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    I don’t think so. I think the choice for May is no deal and destroy the Union or revoke and destroy the Tory Party. Her loyalty to party is stronger - just. It’s been the centre of her world since she was a teenager.
    She's been in the Union even longer.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,225
    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    No, no deal is off the table now.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,113

    DougSeal said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    I don’t think so. I think the choice for May is no deal and destroy the Union or revoke and destroy the Tory Party. Her loyalty to party is stronger - just. It’s been the centre of her world since she was a teenager.
    She's been in the Union even longer.
    Yeah, but like many of us Home Counties types, I’m not sure she noticed
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,113

    DougSeal said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    I don’t think so. I think the choice for May is no deal and destroy the Union or revoke and destroy the Tory Party. Her loyalty to party is stronger - just. It’s been the centre of her world since she was a teenager.
    She's been in the Union even longer.
    Yeah, but like many of us Home Counties types, I’m not sure she noticed
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    FPT
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder what interesting things Julian Assange will have to say to the rozzers when he emerges and is duly arrested. There must be a lot of people queuing up to have a chat with him about his activities of one sort or another.

    What will they arrest him for? Haven't the Swedes dropped their request for extradition due to the statute of limitations expiring?

    Can he actually only be arrested for jumping bail?
    I believe this explainer in the Guardian is accurate, so far as we can tell:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/why-is-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-in-london-ecuadorian-embassy

    Interesting, thanks. Especially that last paragraph.

    There would be a certain irony if having used fake fears of extradition to the US to hide from allegations of sexual misconduct, he managed to prolong matters to the extent that a change of political scenery in Washington made those fears into a reality.

    Karma's a bitch.
    How on earth do you deduce from that article that his fears were fake? Surely it confirms the opposite?

    It is an utter disgrace that UK police resources have continued to be used to stop this man leaving the country, especially considering there's an epidemic of violent crime.
    Yes, it's really terrible that the police use their resources to try and catch people who break the law. They should spend it on penguin awareness courses instead.

    As for the first, the US could have extradited him from here at any time for no reason, but they would have found it much harder to extradite him from Sweden which has a much less comprehensive extradition treaty and would have required our consent for onward movement.

    Whether Assange did or didn't rape anyone I don't know. But his wild and patently false claims about the extradition being an American stitch-up showed one of paranoia, stupidity, or guilt.

    I think probably the real problem he couldn't deal with was that the Obama administration considered him much less important than Manning. Trump, surprisingly, seems to feel the opposite way.
    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Okay, but wait a bit. The answer to the original question only said Parliamentary and local elections. It doesn't mention referendums at all.

    Now the franchise for all referendums in the UK has previously always been set as identical to the Parliamentary franchise (though for the Scottish indyref that was the franchise for the Scottish Parliament which is different to that for the Westminster Parliament), so the right for Irish citizens to vote in UK referendums is implied.

    Bradley's latest answer muddies the water quite considerably and it does raise the prospect of Irish citizens losing the right to vote in future referendums, including future NI border polls if it is not clarified/corrected.
    However given that the EU wants to have a hard border between the U.K. and Ireland (because Ireland is indivisible from the rest of the EU. and therefore it follows there can be no special deals to reflect our shared history) surely it is logical that Irish citizens should be treated like EU citizens for voting purposes?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
  • Options
    Just wanted to thank Foxy and others for their words on the previous thread. Much appreciated
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Just wanted to thank Foxy and others for their words on the previous thread. Much appreciated

    I was also sorry to hear your news. Very traumatic situation. Best wishes to you and your family.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Okay, but wait a bit. The answer to the original question only said Parliamentary and local elections. It doesn't mention referendums at all.

    Now the franchise for all referendums in the UK has previously always been set as identical to the Parliamentary franchise (though for the Scottish indyref that was the franchise for the Scottish Parliament which is different to that for the Westminster Parliament), so the right for Irish citizens to vote in UK referendums is implied.

    Bradley's latest answer muddies the water quite considerably and it does raise the prospect of Irish citizens losing the right to vote in future referendums, including future NI border polls if it is not clarified/corrected.
    However given that the EU wants to have a hard border between the U.K. and Ireland (because Ireland is indivisible from the rest of the EU. and therefore it follows there can be no special deals to reflect our shared history) surely it is logical that Irish citizens should be treated like EU citizens for voting purposes?
    The Good Friday Agreement is more important than your hair-splitting argument.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,113
    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Okay, but wait a bit. The answer to the original question only said Parliamentary and local elections. It doesn't mention referendums at all.

    Now the franchise for all referendums in the UK has previously always been set as identical to the Parliamentary franchise (though for the Scottish indyref that was the franchise for the Scottish Parliament which is different to that for the Westminster Parliament), so the right for Irish citizens to vote in UK referendums is implied.

    Bradley's latest answer muddies the water quite considerably and it does raise the prospect of Irish citizens losing the right to vote in future referendums, including future NI border polls if it is not clarified/corrected.
    However given that the EU wants to have a hard border between the U.K. and Ireland (because Ireland is indivisible from the rest of the EU. and therefore it follows there can be no special deals to reflect our shared history) surely it is logical that Irish citizens should be treated like EU citizens for voting purposes?
    We give resident Commonwealth citizens the vote even if their countries impose stringent entry restrictions on our people and goods. Also your assertion that the “EU wants to have a hard border...” cannot go unchallenged. Even if it did I don’t see how “logic” takes you to the position of disenfranchising nearly half the NI electorate.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder what interesting things Julian Assange will have to say to the rozzers when he emerges and is duly arrested. There must be a lot of people queuing up to have a chat with him about his activities of one sort or another.

    What will they arrest him for? Haven't the Swedes dropped their request for extradition due to the statute of limitations expiring?

    Can he actually only be arrested for jumping bail?
    I believe this explainer in the Guardian is accurate, so far as we can tell:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/why-is-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-in-london-ecuadorian-embassy

    Interesting, thanks. Especially that last paragraph.

    There would be a certain irony if having used fake fears of extradition to the US to hide from allegations of sexual misconduct, he managed to prolong matters to the extent that a change of political scenery in Washington made those fears into a reality.

    Karma's a bitch.
    How on earth do you deduce from that article that his fears were fake? Surely it confirms the opposite?

    It is an utter disgrace that UK police resources have continued to be used to stop this man leaving the country, especially considering there's an epidemic of violent crime.
    Yes, it's really terrible that the police use their resources to try and catch people who break the law. They should spend it on penguin awareness courses instead.

    As for the first, the US could have extradited him from here at any time for no reason, but they would have found it much harder to extradite him from Sweden which has a much less comprehensive extradition treaty and would have required our consent for onward movement.

    Whether Assange did or didn't rape anyone I don't know. But his wild and patently false claims about the extradition being an American stitch-up showed one of paranoia, stupidity, or guilt.

    I think probably the real problem he couldn't deal with was that the Obama administration considered him much less important than Manning. Trump, surprisingly, seems to feel the opposite way.
    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    But you're happy to have billions wasted on No Deal Brexit preparations?
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,113

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder what interesting things Julian Assange will have to say to the rozzers when he emerges and is duly arrested. There must be a lot of people queuing up to have a chat with him about his activities of one sort or another.

    What will they arrest him for? Haven't the Swedes dropped their request for extradition due to the statute of limitations expiring?

    Can he actually only be arrested for jumping bail?
    I believe this explainer in the Guardian is accurate, so far as we can tell:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/why-is-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-in-london-ecuadorian-embassy

    Interesting, thanks. Especially that last paragraph.

    There would be a certain irony if having used fake fears of extradition to the US to hide from allegations of sexual misconduct, he managed to prolong matters to the extent that a change of political scenery in Washington made those fears into a reality.

    Karma's a bitch.
    How on earth do you deduce from that article that his fears were fake? Surely it confirms the opposite?

    It is an utter disgrace that UK police resources have continued to be used to stop this man leaving the country, especially considering there's an epidemic of violent crime.
    Yes, it's really terrible that the police use their resources to try and catch people who break the law. They should spend it on penguin awareness courses instead.

    As for the first, the US could have extradited him from here at any time for no reason, but they would have found it much harder to extradite him from Sweden which has a much less comprehensive extradition treaty and would have required our consent for onward movement.

    Whether Assange did or didn't rape anyone I don't know. But his wild and patently false claims about the extradition being an American stitch-up showed one of paranoia, stupidity, or guilt.

    I think probably the real problem he couldn't deal with was that the Obama administration considered him much less important than Manning. Trump, surprisingly, seems to feel the opposite way.
    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    Quite remarkable how they managed to get 19 men and 2 women convicted without even an investigation. Must have been a legal first.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder what interesting things Julian Assange will have to say to the rozzers when he emerges and is duly arrested. There must be a lot of people queuing up to have a chat with him about his activities of one sort or another.

    What will they arrest him for? Haven't the Swedes dropped their request for extradition due to the statute of limitations expiring?

    Can he actually only be arrested for jumping bail?
    I believe this explainer in the Guardian is accurate, so far as we can tell:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/why-is-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-in-london-ecuadorian-embassy

    Interesting, thanks. Especially that last paragraph.

    There would be a certain irony if having used fake fears of extradition to the US to hide from allegations of sexual misconduct, he managed to prolong matters to the extent that a change of political scenery in Washington made those fears into a reality.

    Karma's a bitch.
    How on earth do you deduce from that article that his fears were fake? Surely it confirms the opposite?

    It is an utter disgrace that UK police resources have continued to be used to stop this man leaving the country, especially considering there's an epidemic of violent crime.
    Yes, it's really terrible that the police use their resources to try and catch people who break the law. They should spend it on penguin awareness courses instead.

    As for the first, the US could have extradited him from here at any time for no reason, but they would have found it much harder to extradite him from Sweden which has a much less comprehensive extradition treaty and would have required our consent for onward movement.

    Whether Assange did or didn't rape anyone I don't know. But his wild and patently false claims about the extradition being an American stitch-up showed one of paranoia, stupidity, or guilt.

    I think probably the real problem he couldn't deal with was that the Obama administration considered him much less important than Manning. Trump, surprisingly, seems to feel the opposite way.
    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    But you're happy to have billions wasted on No Deal Brexit preparations?
    Well, if it keeps you happy, we can No Deal Brexit so it isn't wasted......
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
    So - just to be clear - in your view, the way to escape any form of investigation for any crime is to run away and wait until your supporters start bleating about police wasting money trying to catch criminals?
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Given that the incumbent MP subject to a recall petition can stand at the ensuing by-election that could make it harder for the defending party to hang.Assuming that a different candidate had been selected than the presence of the outgoing person on the ballot paper would possibly split the vote for that party
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder what interesting things Julian Assange will have to say to the rozzers when he emerges and is duly arrested. There must be a lot of people queuing up to have a chat with him about his activities of one sort or another.

    What will they arrest him for? Haven't the Swedes dropped their request for extradition due to the statute of limitations expiring?

    Can he actually only be arrested for jumping bail?
    I believe this explainer in the Guardian is accurate, so far as we can tell:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/why-is-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-in-london-ecuadorian-embassy

    Interesting, thanks. Especially that last paragraph.

    There would be a certain irony if having used fake fears of extradition to the US to hide from allegations of sexual misconduct, he managed to prolong matters to the extent that a change of political scenery in Washington made those fears into a reality.

    Karma's a bitch.
    How on earth do you deduce from that article that his fears were fake? Surely it confirms the opposite?

    It is an utter disgrace that UK police resources have continued to be used to stop this man leaving the country, especially considering there's an epidemic of violent crime.
    Yes, it's really terrible that the police use their resources to try and catch people who break the law. They should spend it on penguin awareness courses instead.

    As for the first, the US could have extradited him from here at any time for no reason, but they would have found it much harder to extradite him from Sweden which has a much less comprehensive extradition treaty and would have required our consent for onward movement.

    Whether Assange did or didn't rape anyone I don't know. But his wild and patently false claims about the extradition being an American stitch-up showed one of paranoia, stupidity, or guilt.

    I think probably the real problem he couldn't deal with was that the Obama administration considered him much less important than Manning. Trump, surprisingly, seems to feel the opposite way.
    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    Quite remarkable how they managed to get 19 men and 2 women convicted without even an investigation. Must have been a legal first.
    Did they misguidedly talk to a tape recorder in court without their lawyer present?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    So brexit talks have broken down...have i made a boo boo not stockpiling bog roll?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited April 2019

    So brexit talks have broken down...have i made a boo boo not stockpiling bog roll?

    You're going to be in deep shit.

    Edit - but then, so are the rest of us.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Okay, but wait a bit. The answer to the original question only said Parliamentary and local elections. It doesn't mention referendums at all.

    Now the franchise for all referendums in the UK has previously always been set as identical to the Parliamentary franchise (though for the Scottish indyref that was the franchise for the Scottish Parliament which is different to that for the Westminster Parliament), so the right for Irish citizens to vote in UK referendums is implied.

    Bradley's latest answer muddies the water quite considerably and it does raise the prospect of Irish citizens losing the right to vote in future referendums, including future NI border polls if it is not clarified/corrected.
    However given that the EU wants to have a hard border between the U.K. and Ireland (because Ireland is indivisible from the rest of the EU. and therefore it follows there can be no special deals to reflect our shared history) surely it is logical that Irish citizens should be treated like EU citizens for voting purposes?
    The Good Friday Agreement is more important than your hair-splitting argument.
    I was musing philosophically. The real world has been known to diverge from classical logic at times
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DougSeal said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    First. And please tell me the Karen Bradley thing is a mistake...
    Like my first.
    It's the new third.

    Bradley is dumb enough to make that mistake, but I didn't think Ministers wrote their own answers. I thought civil servants would do that and a Minister approve or amend.

    I'm shocked that her civil servants allowed her to make such a basic shocking error. Presumably all of the civil servants who can hold a pencil the right way round have been seconded to work on no deal preparation, but even so.
    Actually strictly speaking it is accurate. AIUI British citizens resident in (the Republic of) Ireland are ineligible to vote in referendums to amend the constitution, but not other referendums (it's just that the Republic has never had a referendum that's not to amend the constitution). As the UK does not vote for its head of state, nor does it have a written constitution so no constitutional referendums, the claim of reciprocity is correct.
    Okay, but wait a bit. The answer to the original question only said Parliamentary and local elections. It doesn't mention referendums at all.

    Now the franchise for all referendums in the UK has previously always been set as identical to the Parliamentary franchise (though for the Scottish indyref that was the franchise for the Scottish Parliament which is different to that for the Westminster Parliament), so the right for Irish citizens to vote in UK referendums is implied.

    Bradley's latest answer muddies the water quite considerably and it does raise the prospect of Irish citizens losing the right to vote in future referendums, including future NI border polls if it is not clarified/corrected.
    However given that the EU wants to have a hard border between the U.K. and Ireland (because Ireland is indivisible from the rest of the EU. and therefore it follows there can be no special deals to reflect our shared history) surely it is logical that Irish citizens should be treated like EU citizens for voting purposes?
    We give resident Commonwealth citizens the vote even if their countries impose stringent entry restrictions on our people and goods. Also your assertion that the “EU wants to have a hard border...” cannot go unchallenged. Even if it did I don’t see how “logic” takes you to the position of disenfranchising nearly half the NI electorate.
    Are half the NI electorate really Irish *without also being British* citizens? I haven’t checked, but it would surprise me
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    ydoethur said:

    So brexit talks have broken down...have i made a boo boo not stockpiling bog roll?

    You're going to be in deep shit.

    Edit - but then, so are the rest of us.
    I have got a load of decent plonk though....
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
    So - just to be clear - in your view, the way to escape any form of investigation for any crime is to run away and wait until your supporters start bleating about police wasting money trying to catch criminals?
    I don't know who you think you're convincing with this line of argument, but hey ho. Yes. There is always proportionality applied to the provision of every public service. Sweden no longer wants to extradite Assange. So he is wanted by the UK for skipping bail. We continue to pay millions of pounds, when the same resources are apparently so stretched that we can't stop kids being stabbed, on someone who broke the terms of their bail. That is not proportionate. I don't think that's proportionate, you don't think it's proportionate, nobody on PB think it's proportionate.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,826

    So brexit talks have broken down...have i made a boo boo not stockpiling bog roll?

    I cab sell you some 50p a sheet two ply

    10p a sheet izal
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    edited April 2019



    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.

    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
    We don't know what No Deal will result in.

    Personally I think it will bring unnecessary damage but others disagree and they may be right while you and I may be wrong.

    For example RCS predicts a 1990 level of damage rather than a 2008 level and that certainly wont lead to the disintegration of the Conservatives now any more than it did in 1990.

    And after all one thing we do know for certain is that predictions of doom and disaster have so far been proven totally wrong.

    While you are correct on the attractions this country has to Third World people that does not mean that they are needed to replace Eastern Europeans.

    There is no need to replace car washers, Big Issue sellers, turnip pickers and other tax payer subsidised low added value jobs. This country prospered very nicely without them in the decades when productivity steadily rose.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,225

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder what interesting things Julian Assange will have to say to the rozzers when he emerges and is duly arrested. There must be a lot of people queuing up to have a chat with him about his activities of one sort or another.

    What will they arrest him for? Haven't the Swedes dropped their request for extradition due to the statute of limitations expiring?

    Can he actually only be arrested for jumping bail?
    I believe this explainer in the Guardian is accurate, so far as we can tell:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/why-is-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-in-london-ecuadorian-embassy

    Interesting, thanks. Especially that last paragraph.

    There would be a certain irony if having used fake fears of extradition to the US to hide from allegations of sexual misconduct, he managed to prolong matters to the extent that a change of political scenery in Washington made those fears into a reality.

    Karma's a bitch.
    How on earth do you deduce from that article that his fears were fake? Surely it confirms the opposite?

    It is an utter disgrace that UK police resources have continued to be used to stop this man leaving the resources to try and catch people who break the law. They should spend it on penguin awareness courses instead.

    As for the first, the US could have extradited him from here at any time for no reason, but they would have found it much harder to extradite him from Sweden which has a much less comprehensive extradition treaty and would have required our consent for onward movement.

    Whether Assange did or didn't rape anyone I don't know. But his wild and patently false claims about the extradition being an American stitch-up showed one of paranoia, stupidity, or guilt.

    I think probably the real problem he couldn't deal with was that the Obama administration considered him much less important than Manning. Trump, surprisingly, seems to feel the opposite way.
    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    But you're happy to have billions wasted on No Deal Brexit preparations?
    Well, if it keeps you happy, we can No Deal Brexit so it isn't wasted......
    Those four ferries are plying back and forth every day with barely any cargo. That money is wasted whatever happens in the future.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
    So - just to be clear - in your view, the way to escape any form of investigation for any crime is to run away and wait until your supporters start bleating about police wasting money trying to catch criminals?
    I don't know who you think you're convincing with this line of argument, but hey ho. Yes. There is always proportionality applied to the provision of every public service. Sweden no longer wants to extradite Assange. So he is wanted by the UK for skipping bail. We continue to pay millions of pounds, when the same resources are apparently so stretched that we can't stop kids being stabbed, on someone who broke the terms of their bail. That is not proportionate. I don't think that's proportionate, you don't think it's proportionate, nobody on PB think it's proportionate.
    Bail-jumping is like perjury: it may not seem important at first glance but it is fundamental that it is punished severely because otherwise the authority of the court is undermined
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited April 2019

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
    So - just to be clear - in your view, the way to escape any form of investigation for any crime is to run away and wait until your supporters start bleating about police wasting money trying to catch criminals?
    I don't know who you think you're convincing with this line of argument, but hey ho. Yes. There is always proportionality applied to the provision of every public service. Sweden no longer wants to extradite Assange. So he is wanted by the UK for skipping bail. We continue to pay millions of pounds, when the same resources are apparently so stretched that we can't stop kids being stabbed, on someone who broke the terms of their bail. That is not proportionate. I don't think that's proportionate, you don't think it's proportionate, nobody on PB think it's proportionate.
    So what should be done?

    And I would point out the only reason he wasn't extradited to Sweden to be interviewed (not charged) following allegations of rape and sexual assault, which you say you take seriously - was because he committed a further criminal act.

    So should he just have been allowed to escape?

    Assange's crimes are the reason so much has been spent. Yet you seem to approve of his breaking the law, for which he used an excuse that a fairly intelligent ten year old could see was spurious.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531
    edited April 2019
    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Poles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    So brexit talks have broken down...have i made a boo boo not stockpiling bog roll?

    You're going to be in deep shit.

    Edit - but then, so are the rest of us.
    I have got a load of decent plonk though....
    We have many plonkers around. Large numbers in the Commons for a start.

    Oh sorry, was that not what you meant?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    GIN1138 said:

    Wonder whether Fiona will stand as an Indy? :D

    She'd soon discover that a donkey without a rosette is just a donkey.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,901
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Oles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Can’t the Poles & Lithuanians apply for those visa’s then?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Oles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Can’t the Poles & Lithuanians apply for those visa’s then?
    You're as bad as Malcolm...
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
    So - just to be clear - in your view, the way to escape any form of investigation for any crime is to run away and wait until your supporters start bleating about police wasting money trying to catch criminals?
    I don't know who you think you're convincing with this line of argument, but hey ho. Yes. There is always proportionality applied to the provision of every public service. Sweden no longer wants to extradite Assange. So he is wanted by the UK for skipping bail. We continue to pay millions of pounds, when the same resources are apparently so stretched that we can't stop kids being stabbed, on someone who broke the terms of their bail. That is not proportionate. I don't think that's proportionate, you don't think it's proportionate, nobody on PB think it's proportionate.
    Bail-jumping is like perjury: it may not seem important at first glance but it is fundamental that it is punished severely because otherwise the authority of the court is undermined
    I'm sorry but this is a weak defence of an egregious waste of taxpayer's money. The police and justice system decide to let perpetrators slip through the cracks when the chase gets too difficult on an hourly basis. It's the nature of their work. People who have done a great deal worse than skip bail. Rotherham being just one extreme example.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571

    So brexit talks have broken down...have i made a boo boo not stockpiling bog roll?

    I cab sell you some 50p a sheet two ply

    10p a sheet izal
    Izal - bloody hell - do they still make that stuff?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough:
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Oles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Can’t the Poles & Lithuanians apply for those visa’s then?
    They can do, but they can work at better rates, and without visa hassles in the EU27, so will either gain permanent redidence here or move on.

    I remember before the East Europeans that we used to have gangmasters bring Asians from Birmingham to pick the crops near me.

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571

    Given that the incumbent MP subject to a recall petition can stand at the ensuing by-election that could make it harder for the defending party to hang.Assuming that a different candidate had been selected than the presence of the outgoing person on the ballot paper would possibly split the vote for that party

    Er...That's probably all the right words Mike but not necessarily in the right order.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough:
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Oles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Can’t the Poles & Lithuanians apply for those visa’s then?
    They can do, but they can work at better rates, and without visa hassles in the EU27, so will either gain permanent redidence here or move on.

    I remember before the East Europeans that we used to have gangmasters bring Asians from Birmingham to pick the crops near me.

    Asian gang masters are still very much in business.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Poles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Is washing cars and selling the Big Issue seasonal work ?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    edited April 2019
    I've tabbed over to the BBC football page twice tonight and immediately had a goal announcement.

    I must be worth millions to Liverpool.

    Edit: Make that three goals.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Chris said:

    Well, anyhow, if the government really isn't prepared to consider any changes to the wording of the political declaration, we are going to be leaving with no deal a week today.

    In preparing for this, as far as I can tell, the main things to remember are that the supermarkets have reasonably large stockpiles of food that can be stored at ambient temperature. It's food that needs to be frozen or chilled that is likely to be a problem in the event of no deal.

    I don't think that No Deal is going to happen. The breakdown in Tory / Labour talks was utterly predictable as is the enduring opposition to the Deal by ERG/DUP. My feeling is the PM and her Government has to be seen to exhaust all avenues to achieving the deal, then she will revoke.
    Revoke means the ruination of the Conservative party and PM Corbyn.

    Do you think the government will chose that ?

    I'm hoping for a WDA+CU agreement next week after all the posturing.
    No Deal means the disintegration of the Tories as well! That then means Corbyn as PM. Do you really think the Brexiteers in cabinet are going to walk? I am talking Fox, Grayling etc if they revoke Article 50? I don't think so. ERG/DUP are not going to back down in sufficient numbers to get the Deal through Parliament. I could of course be completely wrong but as I have posted before my view of the PMs strategy is one of exploring all avenues before the big decision of Revoke is countenanced.

    Peterborough: I visited the city to get a feel of the place and see the validity of stories regarding Eastern European numbers. I did notice many foreign accents and concluded that this may have been a driver for Brexit. I have lived in Towns and Cities with comparable Immigrant communities numbers, you can meet people with real hatred of Pakistani communities for instance in some parts of the country. The irony of Brexit is the Eastern European Immigrants will be supplanted by non European Immigrants even if the economy does not do well. This is because a non European immigrant who exists on £1 a day in some parts of the world will think £8 an hour in the UK is paradise in comparison.
    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?
    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Poles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Is washing cars and selling the Big Issue seasonal work ?
    I wouldn't have thought so.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
    So - just to be clear - in your view, the way to escape any form of investigation for any crime is to run away and wait until your supporters start bleating about police wasting money trying to catch criminals?
    I don't know who you think you're convincing with this line of argument, but hey ho. Yes. There is always proportionality applied to the provision of every public service. Sweden no longer wants to extradite Assange. So he is wanted by the UK for skipping bail. We continue to pay millions of pounds, when the same resources are apparently so stretched that we can't stop kids being stabbed, on someone who broke the terms of their bail. That is not proportionate. I don't think that's proportionate, you don't think it's proportionate, nobody on PB think it's proportionate.
    So what should be done?

    And I would point out the only reason he wasn't extradited to Sweden to be interviewed (not charged) following allegations of rape and sexual assault, which you say you take seriously - was because he committed a further criminal act.

    So should he just have been allowed to escape?

    Assange's crimes are the reason so much has been spent. Yet you seem to approve of his breaking the law, for which he used an excuse that a fairly intelligent ten year old could see was spurious.
    YES. A thousand times yes. He should be allowed to escape. Bingo. Well done.

    I don't approve of anyone breaking the law. Which is why I don't approve of millions of pounds of police recources that could have been spent on criminal or terrorism investigation or prevention on the streets of London being spent on keeping someone who represents no threat to the British public and who stands accused of skipping bail holed up in an embassy.

    And I think you mean his alleged crimes, if we're respecting the legal process...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Do us a favour. Allegations of rape in Rotherham weren't even investigated! By contrast, we had spent £10 million at least policing Assange by 2015, whereupon the figure became classified. An utter disgrace.

    I think you will find they were investigated and several people were convicted.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the reason for the heavy police presence is he is a fugitive from the police.

    Or do you think that if they run far enough they should just be let go?
    When the Swedish case has been dropped, the only offence is skipping bail, and the taxpayer is paying millions on a ludicrous stakeout, you're damn right I think they should just be let go. Anyone with a vague grip on proportionality would agree.
    So - just to be clear - in your view, the way to escape any form of investigation for any crime is to run away and wait until your supporters start bleating about police wasting money trying to catch criminals?
    I don't know who you think you're convincing with this line of argument, but hey ho. Yes. There is always proportionality applied to the provision of every public service. Sweden no longer wants to extradite Assange. So he is wanted by the UK for skipping bail. We continue to pay millions of pounds, when the same resources are apparently so stretched that we can't stop kids being stabbed, on someone who broke the terms of their bail. That is not proportionate. I don't think that's proportionate, you don't think it's proportionate, nobody on PB think it's proportionate.
    Bail-jumping is like perjury: it may not seem important at first glance but it is fundamental that it is punished severely because otherwise the authority of the court is undermined
    I'm sorry but this is a weak defence of an egregious waste of taxpayer's money. The police and justice system decide to let perpetrators slip through the cracks when the chase gets too difficult on an hourly basis. It's the nature of their work. People who have done a great deal worse than skip bail. Rotherham being just one extreme example.
    While Asange is a bail jumper, I don't think others typically get pursued quite so enthusiastically. It is a useful justification for keeping tabs on a foreign agent of influence, a bit like busting Capone for tax evasion.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274



    Is washing cars and selling the Big Issue seasonal work ?

    The Albanian mafia has the car wash business monopoly and the Romanians "self employed" moved on the big issue gig far before they had free movement.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    YES. A thousand times yes. He should be allowed to escape. Bingo. Well done.

    I don't approve of anyone breaking the law. Which is why I don't approve of millions of pounds of police recources that could have been spent on criminal or terrorism investigation or prevention on the streets of London being spent on keeping someone who represents no threat to the British public holed up in an embassy.

    And I think you mean his alleged crimes, if we're respecting the legal process...

    Failing to surrender to bail is a crime.

    The rest of your arguments amount to 'people I don't like should be investigated when allegations are made, but people I like should get away with it because it's all really a plot because I say so.'

    And you accuse others of being ridiculous?

    May I draw your attention to the Gospel according to St Matthew, chapter 7, verses 1-5?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,571
    Presumably, if the talks between the goverment and Labour break down, as seems likely, the PMs fallback will kick in on Monday?...

    "However, if we cannot agree on a single unified approach, then we would instead agree a number of options for the Future Relationship that we could put to the House in a series of votes to determine which course to pursue.

    Crucially, the Government stands ready to abide by the decision of the House."
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:


    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?

    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Poles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Is washing cars and selling the Big Issue seasonal work ?
    I wouldn't have thought so.
    The net immigration from agriculture must be no more than a few thousand.

    Its the low grade service sector jobs which are dependent upon ever cheaper and more exploitable immigrants.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:


    How will the non European immigrant on £1 a day get to work legally in the UK?

    Probably via a seasonal workers visa. So the Poles and Lithuanians will be replaced by Ukrainians and Belarussians, perhaps Egyptians, Turks and Morroccans too.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397
    Is washing cars and selling the Big Issue seasonal work ?
    I wouldn't have thought so.
    The net immigration from agriculture must be no more than a few thousand.

    Its the low grade service sector jobs which are dependent upon ever cheaper and more exploitable immigrants.
    You mean the cheap services that poor people use?
This discussion has been closed.