Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
Confusion between the Irish and the Northern Irish, a significant part of whom would oppose anything 'European" on the ground that it was founded on the Treaty of Rome.
17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start. In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt it
The problem is that Kevin Maguire is about as low, if not lower, than Boris Johnson. We'd be better off if both of them retreated from the public eye to count their money.
Like I said: on the same page of the 2015 Conservative manifesto where Dave promised an in-out referendum, he also promised to safeguard Britain's place in the Single Market. So the way to honour the referendum result in the spirit in which the referendum was promised would be to leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. But I wouldn't say not saying in the Single Market would single-handedly destroy all faith in democracy etc
That surely is just evidence that there wasn't room in Dave's Tiny Brain for the idea that the Referendum might actually be lost....
Ah, so Tory manifestos are inviolate only when you agree with them?
I'm saying Dave legged it when his own authority under the Manifesto was shot.
May stood on a Manifesto that she would leave the Customs Union. If she can't deliver on that Manifesto commitment, perhaps she should follow Dave out the door marked in Number 10 marked exit?
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?
I assume you would answer in the negative.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?
I assume you would answer in the negative.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?
17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start. In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt it
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’
How many times did that happen? Apart from occasions when a Tory MP became a kipper and re-fought his seat? And, yes, course, there was Clacton!
Seven out of the last ten by Elections in the 2010-15 parliament, and they won two of the other three.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
Confusion between the Irish and the Northern Irish, a significant part of whom would oppose anything 'European" on the ground that it was founded on the Treaty of Rome.
I didn’t feel it necessary to say ‘Northern’ as the Republic didn’t take part in the referendum
Like I said: on the same page of the 2015 Conservative manifesto where Dave promised an in-out referendum, he also promised to safeguard Britain's place in the Single Market. So the way to honour the referendum result in the spirit in which the referendum was promised would be to leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. But I wouldn't say not saying in the Single Market would single-handedly destroy all faith in democracy etc
That surely is just evidence that there wasn't room in Dave's Tiny Brain for the idea that the Referendum might actually be lost....
Ah, so Tory manifestos are inviolate only when you agree with them?
I'm saying Dave legged it when his own authority under the Manifesto was shot.
May stood on a Manifesto that she would leave the Customs Union. If she can't deliver on that Manifesto commitment, perhaps she should follow Dave out the door marked in Number 10 marked exit?
Except she did not win a majority on her manifesto, had she done so we might have a House of Commons that would vote for her Deal or No Deal, instead of one where a Customs Union is closest to a majority
17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start. In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt it
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’
If you want a settled Brexit, then yes, it is.
The implementation of Brexit has been clearly demonstrated not to be a binary choice - as many of those who voted leave have been telling you on here.
“It’s my turn to be unfair” is not a persuasive argument to those who disagree with you.
How am I personally being unfair?! It’s nothing to do with me how Brexit is or isn’t implemented!
I’m just pointing out how things were when the boot was on the other foot, although I would like to hear what concessions would be made to the leave 48% had the result been reversed, or let’s say ‘what concessions will be made if a 2nd ref is 52-48 Remain?’
What concessions would have satisfied you and how would they have been delivered?
I don’t think any would have been delivered, because being in the EU means little flexibility on their rules, and the establishment would have just told people like me that we lost.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?
I assume you would answer in the negative.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?
Same answer. The tail can't wags the dog.
even wag
You can't do Brexit "properly" unless you drag the Republic out too (not going to happen), cause immense disruption and division on the island of Ireland (which should be unthinkable because of the Good Friday Agreement), or abandon NI to the Republic (apparently not acceptable to most Leaver politicians, but is acceptable to most Leaver voters).
So it might have helped if this had been central to the referendum debate.
"So your only answer to a serious question is whataboutery not even grounded in reality."
How about Scottish independence? Is that whataboutery?
Mr w,
If I had to explain the Brexit vote and the reaction to it in one word, it would be "Arrogance."
Some Remainers persist in thinking they are special people. Their judgement is superior to the common herd. How dare the thick and ignorant win a referendum. It must be stopped at all costs and by all means. That attitude will keep the sore open.
Not 'special people' but it is now beyond reasonable doubt that their (Remainers) judgement proved superior to what you describe as 'the common herd'- 'Leavers.'
The closeness of the vote suggests it was largely luck mixed with a slightly better educated and younger demographic who were prepared to look more closely at the facts.
Like I said: on the same page of the 2015 Conservative manifesto where Dave promised an in-out referendum, he also promised to safeguard Britain's place in the Single Market. So the way to honour the referendum result in the spirit in which the referendum was promised would be to leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. But I wouldn't say not saying in the Single Market would single-handedly destroy all faith in democracy etc
That surely is just evidence that there wasn't room in Dave's Tiny Brain for the idea that the Referendum might actually be lost....
Ah, so Tory manifestos are inviolate only when you agree with them?
I'm saying Dave legged it when his own authority under the Manifesto was shot.
May stood on a Manifesto that she would leave the Customs Union. If she can't deliver on that Manifesto commitment, perhaps she should follow Dave out the door marked in Number 10 marked exit?
As I see @HYUFD has already noted yes. Had the manifesto been given popular assent. It was not. Hence terms and promises in it are moot.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?
I assume you would answer in the negative.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
The Northern Irish heard the same promises as everyone else from the Leave side about the status of the border not changing in any way. Now they know the reality, it would be interesting to see how they’d vote now.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start. In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt it
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’
If you want a settled Brexit, then yes, it is.
The implementation of Brexit has been clearly demonstrated not to be a binary choice - as many of those who voted leave have been telling you on here.
“It’s my turn to be unfair” is not a persuasive argument to those who disagree with you.
How am I personally being unfair?! It’s nothing to do with me how Brexit is or isn’t implemented!
I’m just pointing out how things were when the boot was on the other foot, although I would like to hear what concessions would be made to the leave 48% had the result been reversed, or let’s say ‘what concessions will be made if a 2nd ref is 52-48 Remain?’
What concessions would have satisfied you and how would they have been delivered?
I don’t think any would have been delivered, because being in the EU means little flexibility on their rules, and the establishment would have just told people like me that we lost.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?
I assume you would answer in the negative.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?
Same answer. The tail can't wags the dog.
even wag
You can't do Brexit "properly" unless you drag the Republic out too (not going to happen), cause immense disruption and division on the island of Ireland (which should be unthinkable because of the Good Friday Agreement), or abandon NI to the Republic (apparently not acceptable to most Leaver politicians, but is acceptable to most Leaver voters).
So it might have helped if this had been central to the referendum debate.
Yes. As well as the fact that leavers were unwilling to argue amongst themselves before the referendum, it's also desperately sad how none of their gigantic minds and gargantuan talents foresaw the NI border problem.
I mean, surely the titanic intellects of David Davis, Fox, Boris et al had all of this figured out?
17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start. In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt it
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’
If you want a settled Brexit, then yes, it is.
The implementation of Brexit has been clearly demonstrated not to be a binary choice - as many of those who voted leave have been telling you on here.
“It’s my turn to be unfair” is not a persuasive argument to those who disagree with you.
How am I personally being unfair?! It’s nothing to do with me how Brexit is or isn’t implemented!
I’m just pointing out how things were when the boot was on the other foot, although I would like to hear what concessions would be made to the leave 48% had the result been reversed, or let’s say ‘what concessions will be made if a 2nd ref is 52-48 Remain?’
What concessions would have satisfied you and how would they have been delivered?
I don’t think any would have been delivered, because being in the EU means little flexibility on their rules, and the establishment would have just told people like me that we lost.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?
I assume you would answer in the negative.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?
Same answer. The tail can't wags the dog.
even wag
You can't do Brexit "properly" unless you drag the Republic out too (not going to happen), cause immense disruption and division on the island of Ireland (which should be unthinkable because of the Good Friday Agreement), or abandon NI to the Republic (apparently not acceptable to most Leaver politicians, but is acceptable to most Leaver voters).
So it might have helped if this had been central to the referendum debate.
Yes. As well as the fact that leavers were unwilling to argue amongst themselves before the referendum, it's also desperately sad how none of their gigantic minds and gargantuan talents foresaw the NI border problem.
I mean, surely the titanic intellects of David Davis, Fox, Boris et al had all of this figured out?
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
The Northern Irish heard the same promises as everyone else from the Leave side about the status of the border not changing in any way. Now they know the reality, it would be interesting to see how they’d vote now.
The fact is that, in a democracy, people continuously make bad decisions. That is why democracy rarely lasts, in comparison to other forms of government.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
The problem came from the MPs demanding they had the final say. The have something like a 200 majority for Remain and that's the way they cast their votes in the referendum, no doubt. But that's where their input should have ended.
I know I keep bringing up a potential Scottish independence referendum, but the MPs will take exactly the same attitude (it's the arrogance thing). They will want to control and neuter the consequences. Think about those who lost, they must not be forgotten. Scotland must stay as close as possible to the UK. It will be independence in name only.
To gain true independence, the SNP have to win a majority in the HoC. The people don't count.
The Northern Irish heard the same promises as everyone else from the Leave side about the status of the border not changing in any way. Now they know the reality, it would be interesting to see how they’d vote now.
If you want to see the border post that really matters - head to the ferry port to Holyhead. View the endless queue of diesel belching lorries heading to pollute England en route to the ferry port . Value add to the Uk ? A large negative.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
The problem came from the MPs demanding they had the final say. The have something like a 200 majority for Remain and that's the way they cast their votes in the referendum, no doubt. But that's where their input should have ended.
I know I keep bringing up a potential Scottish independence referendum, but the MPs will take exactly the same attitude (it's the arrogance thing). They will want to control and neuter the consequences. Think about those who lost, they must not be forgotten. Scotland must stay as close as possible to the UK. It will be independence in name only.
To gain true independence, the SNP have to win a majority in the HoC. The people don't count.
In Scotland the people are supposedly sovereign through the Declaration of Arbroath, the Claim of Right etc but even now Scots are just as split on independence as the UK is on Brexit
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
The Northern Irish heard the same promises as everyone else from the Leave side about the status of the border not changing in any way. Now they know the reality, it would be interesting to see how they’d vote now.
The fact is that, in a democracy, people continuously make bad decisions. That is why democracy rarely lasts, in comparison to other forms of government.
Not sure if that holds up, how many dictatorships last longer than democracies? Even if a dictator avoids a revolution, assassination etc, their power is often embodied in them and does not last that long after they have gone
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
The English would not take a view either way, though more prefer NI to stay in the UK than a United Ireland most people believe it is up to the people of NI. In any case given the Protestants and Unionists in NI are not going anywhere a may be difficult to avoid
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Not that long ago one of my Irish nephews married a Church of Ireland girl from the North, and the wedding was held in Carlingford. We were bussed in from the Republic and at the reception, the issue of Brexit came up. (this was pre-referendum).
The Southern Catholics were generally pro-EU. They've had a good few Euros from them. The most enthusiastic supporter of Brexit was a Belfast man. A Proddy but a man of intellect obviously.
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
It was raised, but it was not debated. Concerns were dismissed by the Leave side.
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
Somehow that is now deemed not to be a "proper" Brexit.
A falsehood has been perpetrated on the public and those responsible should be held to account for it.
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
It was raised, but it was not debated. Concerns were dismissed by the Leave side.
Because of the default assumptions I have listed. What that indicates to me that those who claim that no deal was what they were promoting during the referendum campaign are liars. They were forecasting/promising/wishing for the exact opposite.
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
It was raised, but it was not debated. Concerns were dismissed by the Leave side.
Because of the default assumptions I have listed. What that indicates to me that those who claim that no deal was what they were promoting during the referendum campaign are liars. They were forecasting/promising/wishing for the exact opposite.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Of course.
If Northern Irish Leavers had voted Remain, the referendum would have been very close to a tie; Leave would have won by 8,000 votes
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Since this whole Con-Lab enterprise looks obviously doomed it seems wiser to string it out: Better if TMay can say "we're negotiating with Labour" rather than "we tried negotiating with Labour and it didn't work, my current plan is to curl up in a ball and rock back and forth".
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
Somehow that is now deemed not to be a "proper" Brexit.
A falsehood has been perpetrated on the public and those responsible should be held to account for it.
There is a dishonesty in the no dealer's position. Anyone and everyone expected a deal with the EU which would leave trade largely unaffected, even if we were then out of the political structures.
May's deal delivers on that assumption for the transitional period and promises to deliver it long term subject to what we can agree. No deal does not. It does not even come close. The ERG are not only lunatics, incompetents and fools who have seriously overplayed their hand. They are also liars.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Since this whole Con-Lab enterprise looks obviously doomed it seems wiser to string it out: Better if TMay can say "we're negotiating with Labour" rather than "we tried negotiating with Labour and it didn't work, my current plan is to curl up in a ball and rock back and forth".
Only if the EU are content to accept that scenario when they can see as plainly as anyone that our political class could not agree what crisps to buy with a round in the pub. Their incompetence has put us in the role of supplicants and I think the point is coming when the EU will say enough, you leave on a particular date with or without the WA or you revoke. I personally hope they do. If we cannot break the deadlock ourselves it needs to be done for us.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Why would something break? May is being told by the 1922 that she must give just for talking to Corbyn which bodes poorly for making any compromises, while Corbyn has no need to take urgent action for the summit, since what does he care what happens at it?
MPs on both sides have shown continual lack of urgency, always something else will come along, more time will be found, their preferred option will open up.
So far they've been right about the time issue. No guarantee they will again, but they probably are. The EU want us to have a longer extension which is what all but a handful of labour want and many Tories want.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
You being stupid , it is the other half that are complaining. NI is not your normal place it is split as a normal occurence. England is just copying what is normal for NI. You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
So the view of the 48% of Brits who voted Remain are as important to the Brexit negotiations as those whose side won.... But the 44% of Northern Irish who voted to Leave don't matter because they've probably changed their minds?
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
Some would be keen on a hard border with the South, provided that there was no border in the Irish Sea. They would see it as strengthening the Union with Great Britain, and not too bothered if Irish nationalists are upset.
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
Somehow that is now deemed not to be a "proper" Brexit.
A falsehood has been perpetrated on the public and those responsible should be held to account for it.
There is a dishonesty in the no dealer's position. Anyone and everyone expected a deal with the EU which would leave trade largely unaffected, even if we were then out of the political structures.
May's deal delivers on that assumption for the transitional period and promises to deliver it long term subject to what we can agree. No deal does not. It does not even come close. The ERG are not only lunatics, incompetents and fools who have seriously overplayed their hand. They are also liars.
It bears repeating again that a no hard Irish border commitment was fully present and displayed proudly in their blessed Mansion House principles.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Since this whole Con-Lab enterprise looks obviously doomed it seems wiser to string it out: Better if TMay can say "we're negotiating with Labour" rather than "we tried negotiating with Labour and it didn't work, my current plan is to curl up in a ball and rock back and forth".
Only if the EU are content to accept that scenario when they can see as plainly as anyone that our political class could not agree what crisps to buy with a round in the pub. Their incompetence has put us in the role of supplicants and I think the point is coming when the EU will say enough, you leave on a particular date with or without the WA or you revoke. I personally hope they do. If we cannot break the deadlock ourselves it needs to be done for us.
And yet they backed down from that last time. If they have a pretext to do it again they probably will. As you say our MPs really need to be made to break the deadlock but do far the EU do not seem keen and it suits unicorn dealers and remainers to drag things out.
F1: markets still not really up but the points match bet has changed fro 1.8 for Vettel and 1.95 for Leclerc, to 3 for Leclerc.
He's only 3.75 to win the title. Which necessarily involves beating Vettel. Currently he's on 26 to Vettel's 22, although team orders may become a factor. (He should, of course, be on 36, but for that reliability failure).
Edited extra bit: the main potential problem is team orders. Otherwise, the odds are just too long.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
You being stupid , it is the other half that are complaining. NI is not your normal place it is split as a normal occurence. England is just copying what is normal for NI. You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
England voted to Leave, so if we don't it's Scotland and NI deciding our future which is more unfair, as the UK as a whole voted Leave. Better to think of the four parts as one country. If Remain had won despite England voting to Leave I wouldn't have complained.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Since this whole Con-Lab enterprise looks obviously doomed it seems wiser to string it out: Better if TMay can say "we're negotiating with Labour" rather than "we tried negotiating with Labour and it didn't work, my current plan is to curl up in a ball and rock back and forth".
Yes, but even as someone fairly close to it all I can't work out if there's good-faith negotiating going on. It would suit May if Labour signed something, even if it meant a free vote on a referendum, since they believe they can beat that. It would possibly suit Corbyn to do a deal on customs union plus the above free vote - statesmanlike, and moves the issue on. And one shouldn't rule out the possibility that both sides have an eye to the national interest and avoiding a total car crash.
On the other hand, the partisan advantage for both sides of just going through the motions is obvious too. I really can't decide.
The Northern Irish heard the same promises as everyone else from the Leave side about the status of the border not changing in any way. Now they know the reality, it would be interesting to see how they’d vote now.
If you want to see the border post that really matters - head to the ferry port to Holyhead. View the endless queue of diesel belching lorries heading to pollute England en route to the ferry port . Value add to the Uk ? A large negative.
Only if you are in England near the roads they are polluting.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Why would something break? May is being told by the 1922 that she must give just for talking to Corbyn which bodes poorly for making any compromises, while Corbyn has no need to take urgent action for the summit, since what does he care what happens at it?
MPs on both sides have shown continual lack of urgency, always something else will come along, more time will be found, their preferred option will open up.
So far they've been right about the time issue. No guarantee they will again, but they probably are. The EU want us to have a longer extension which is what all but a handful of labour want and many Tories want.
Our economy has already paid a price for the uncertainty. Investment has been diverted, name plates of financial institutions have been moved, the tax base has been eroded, domestic investment has been deferred. None of this was necessary. All of this will go on for as long as business does not know what the rules are going to be. It's why a long deferral is the worst possible outcome for UK plc. Our political class find it irresistible. Cretins.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
You being stupid , it is the other half that are complaining. NI is not your normal place it is split as a normal occurence. England is just copying what is normal for NI. You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
Last time I checked Scotland had a referendum on independence, and voted for the continuation of the Union.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Of course.
If Northern Irish Leavers had voted Remain, the referendum would have been very close to a tie; Leave would have won by 8,000 votes
You think all voters in NI voting Remain is a meaningful hypothesis?
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
It is not just Brexit, but also the collapse of Stormont government and power sharing that puts peace in Ireland at risk.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
You being stupid , it is the other half that are complaining. NI is not your normal place it is split as a normal occurence. England is just copying what is normal for NI. You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
Last time I checked Scotland had a referendum on independence, and voted for the continuation of the Union.
Only if the EU are content to accept that scenario when they can see as plainly as anyone that our political class could not agree what crisps to buy with a round in the pub. Their incompetence has put us in the role of supplicants and I think the point is coming when the EU will say enough, you leave on a particular date with or without the WA or you revoke. I personally hope they do. If we cannot break the deadlock ourselves it needs to be done for us.
I haven't closely followed what the various leaders of the 27 are saying but if I were them I'd prefer an indefinite series of extensions to forcing a choice between No Deal and Revoke. Both of these are bad in their different ways: No Deal is horrible for Ireland and bad and chaotic for citizens and businesses everywhere, and Revoke leaves you with a grumpy member state many of whose voters legitimately think they were robbed.
Obviously an extension could ultimately end up in the same place, but it could also conceivably end up with the WA or a PV-fueled revoke, both of which are much better. The intermediate Gimp Remain state is a nuisance but definitely not a catastrophe, as long as the British are still paying their bills and holding elections when they're supposed to.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Why would something break? May is being told by the 1922 that she must give just for talking to Corbyn which bodes poorly for making any compromises, while Corbyn has no need to take urgent action for the summit, since what does he care what happens at it?
MPs on both sides have shown continual lack of urgency, always something else will come along, more time will be found, their preferred option will open up.
So far they've been right about the time issue. No guarantee they will again, but they probably are. The EU want us to have a longer extension which is what all but a handful of labour want and many Tories want.
Our economy has already paid a price for the uncertainty. Investment has been diverted, name plates of financial institutions have been moved, the tax base has been eroded, domestic investment has been deferred. None of this was necessary. All of this will go on for as long as business does not know what the rules are going to be. It's why a long deferral is the worst possible outcome for UK plc. Our political class find it irresistible. Cretins.
It's easier for them and pretends more options are open. Of course they cannot resist it.
I don't recall the Irish border ever being debated during the referendum campaign. I may have missed it but it never seemed to come up. I think the reason for that was that the default assumption was that we would continue to have a free trade, zero tariff arrangement with the EU so a harder border would not be necessary. Of course that is still entirely possible if we avoid no deal.
Somehow that is now deemed not to be a "proper" Brexit.
A falsehood has been perpetrated on the public and those responsible should be held to account for it.
There is a dishonesty in the no dealer's position. Anyone and everyone expected a deal with the EU which would leave trade largely unaffected, even if we were then out of the political structures.
May's deal delivers on that assumption for the transitional period and promises to deliver it long term subject to what we can agree. No deal does not. It does not even come close. The ERG are not only lunatics, incompetents and fools who have seriously overplayed their hand. They are also liars.
David, May's treaty delivers on nothing, it puts us in a transitional limbo paying large sums. Only thing it does is allow us to ask them for a trade deal and given we have given away anything we could negotiate with in the May crap agreement it means we will either get fleeced or be zombie EU members forever.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
It is not just Brexit, but also the collapse of Stormont government and power sharing that puts peace in Ireland at risk.
Stormont’s failure is far more significant. Salaries should be stopped and new elections called with current members disbarred
Probably not the only similar organisation in and around Hollywood either.
Online gossip columns have been filled with this sort of unbelievable stuff for years, yet slowly but surely even the most far-fetched stories are turning out to be completely true.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Of course.
If Northern Irish Leavers had voted Remain, the referendum would have been very close to a tie; Leave would have won by 8,000 votes
You think all voters in NI voting Remain is a meaningful hypothesis?
Not really, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence, but in any case I was completely wrong as I was looking at the wrong numbers
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Since this whole Con-Lab enterprise looks obviously doomed it seems wiser to string it out: Better if TMay can say "we're negotiating with Labour" rather than "we tried negotiating with Labour and it didn't work, my current plan is to curl up in a ball and rock back and forth".
Yes, but even as someone fairly close to it all I can't work out if there's good-faith negotiating going on. It would suit May if Labour signed something, even if it meant a free vote on a referendum, since they believe they can beat that. It would possibly suit Corbyn to do a deal on customs union plus the above free vote - statesmanlike, and moves the issue on. And one shouldn't rule out the possibility that both sides have an eye to the national interest and avoiding a total car crash.
On the other hand, the partisan advantage for both sides of just going through the motions is obvious too. I really can't decide.
I'm not sure any politician involved - whether government, opposition or EU - trusts anyone else at all any more.
The problem came from the MPs demanding they had the final say. The have something like a 200 majority for Remain and that's the way they cast their votes in the referendum, no doubt. But that's where their input should have ended.
I know I keep bringing up a potential Scottish independence referendum, but the MPs will take exactly the same attitude (it's the arrogance thing). They will want to control and neuter the consequences. Think about those who lost, they must not be forgotten. Scotland must stay as close as possible to the UK. It will be independence in name only.
To gain true independence, the SNP have to win a majority in the HoC. The people don't count.
I disagree , when we are out Westminster will only have a say in the splitting of the spoils. If they are stupid enough to not want to be sensible then tough.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Get yourself over there Sam I'm sure they would be interested to hear your own clear headed analysis. Some communities anyway so be careful where you are.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Since this whole Con-Lab enterprise looks obviously doomed it seems wiser to string it out: Better if TMay can say "we're negotiating with Labour" rather than "we tried negotiating with Labour and it didn't work, my current plan is to curl up in a ball and rock back and forth".
Only if the EU are content to accept that scenario when they can see as plainly as anyone that our political class could not agree what crisps to buy with a round in the pub. Their incompetence has put us in the role of supplicants and I think the point is coming when the EU will say enough, you leave on a particular date with or without the WA or you revoke. I personally hope they do. If we cannot break the deadlock ourselves it needs to be done for us.
And yet they backed down from that last time. If they have a pretext to do it again they probably will. As you say our MPs really need to be made to break the deadlock but do far the EU do not seem keen and it suits unicorn dealers and remainers to drag things out.
A trade war with the US as they try to protect Boeing from the consequences of their own incompetence, Germany on the edge of a recession, Italy already in one, there is a lot to do and they must be getting as bored of Brexit as the rest of us.
F1: markets still not really up but the points match bet has changed fro 1.8 for Vettel and 1.95 for Leclerc, to 3 for Leclerc.
He's only 3.75 to win the title. Which necessarily involves beating Vettel. Currently he's on 26 to Vettel's 22, although team orders may become a factor. (He should, of course, be on 36, but for that reliability failure).
Edited extra bit: the main potential problem is team orders. Otherwise, the odds are just too long.
I'm thinking of laying Leclerc for the title as a trading bet - expecting him to get an engine penalty. Ferrari's stated reason for his Bahrain failure makes no sense, when compared to what was said over the team radio during the race.
Probably not the only similar organisation in and around Hollywood either.
Online gossip columns have been filled with this sort of unbelievable stuff for years, yet slowly but surely even the most far-fetched stories are turning out to be completely true.
It;s hardly surprising: the Hollywood casting couch was a true joke - even though it's not funny - for decades. This sort of thing was bound to develop where there are such stark power differentials.
And it won't just be Hollywood: one of the frustrating things about people only ever obsessing about Muslim grooming gangs - abhorrent as they are - is that abuse is much larger in scale than that. The figures for abuse is truly staggering and shocking. We will probably all know someone who has been abused in the last year - even if we don't know it.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
Naive Charles. Another one who should head over there for a look see.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Get yourself over there Sam I'm sure they would be interested to hear your own clear headed analysis. Some communities anyway so be careful where you are.
Me popping over there for a day or two and having a walk around would add nothing to the debate I'm afraid.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
You being stupid , it is the other half that are complaining. NI is not your normal place it is split as a normal occurence. England is just copying what is normal for NI. You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
England voted to Leave, so if we don't it's Scotland and NI deciding our future which is more unfair, as the UK as a whole voted Leave. Better to think of the four parts as one country. If Remain had won despite England voting to Leave I wouldn't have complained.
Time the union was broken up , it is not viable that England decides the future of everybody and runs roughshod over the rest of the union , it cannot continue. Its days are numbered.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Get yourself over there Sam I'm sure they would be interested to hear your own clear headed analysis. Some communities anyway so be careful where you are.
Me popping over there for a day or two and having a walk around would add nothing to the debate I'm afraid.
It would add a lot to the quality of the debate on here.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?
I assume you would answer in the negative.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?
Same answer. The tail can't wags the dog.
even wag
You can't do Brexit "properly" unless you drag the Republic out too (not going to happen), cause immense disruption and division on the island of Ireland (which should be unthinkable because of the Good Friday Agreement), or abandon NI to the Republic (apparently not acceptable to most Leaver politicians, but is acceptable to most Leaver voters).
So it might have helped if this had been central to the referendum debate.
Yes. As well as the fact that leavers were unwilling to argue amongst themselves before the referendum, it's also desperately sad how none of their gigantic minds and gargantuan talents foresaw the NI border problem.
I mean, surely the titanic intellects of David Davis, Fox, Boris et al had all of this figured out?
Oh, I see the problem...
The real eurosceptics on the right of the Tory Party and UKIP saw that blaming the EU for everything that was wrong with peoples' lives gave them a path way to winning the referendum. As there was no requirement in the referendum campaign to specify what the consequences of a leave vote would actually be all they had to do was keep quiet about their real intentions and the fact that what they had in mind wasn't going to do anything to improve those people's lives.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
How long have you been there?
48 hours. It’s in your face immediately. You should take a look.
Surely no need when I have your clear headed, impartial observations to hand!
Get yourself over there Sam I'm sure they would be interested to hear your own clear headed analysis. Some communities anyway so be careful where you are.
Me popping over there for a day or two and having a walk around would add nothing to the debate I'm afraid.
It would add a lot to the quality of the debate on here.
If its cold I could wear one of those half and half scarves, a Rangers/Celtic one maybe?
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
Naive Charles. Another one who should head over there for a look see.
I do
But let’s have your counter arguments with facts not insults
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
Naive Charles. Another one who should head over there for a look see.
I do
But let’s have your counter arguments with facts not insults
The problem came from the MPs demanding they had the final say. The have something like a 200 majority for Remain and that's the way they cast their votes in the referendum, no doubt. But that's where their input should have ended.
I know I keep bringing up a potential Scottish independence referendum, but the MPs will take exactly the same attitude (it's the arrogance thing). They will want to control and neuter the consequences. Think about those who lost, they must not be forgotten. Scotland must stay as close as possible to the UK. It will be independence in name only.
To gain true independence, the SNP have to win a majority in the HoC. The people don't count.
Was that demand not simply in response to not being consulted in the process - in a situation where the government lacked even a majority in Parliament ? It was absurd arrogance for May to think she could define Brexit and have it rubber stamped.
Should Scotland vote for independence, they will be in a similar position to rUK as we are to the EU, only with centuries of integration to undo, rather than decades. It's not an 'arrogance thing' at all. It is a democratic negotiation, with all the mess that entails.
The expectation that a magic wand can be waved and a new relationship between nations defined by a slim majority in one of those nations, in the space of a couple of years, is delusional.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
Naive Charles. Another one who should head over there for a look see.
I do
But let’s have your counter arguments with facts not insults
I'm not sure any politician involved - whether government, opposition or EU - trusts anyone else at all any more.
Exactly. I mean, I can just about see how TMay would compromise with the mystery tramp but why would he trust anything she told him? She won't even be around to deliver it, she's promised to drop out and let the Tories replace her with an unknown crazy person.
If they were going down the referendum path then I can see how it could work, but this one...
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.
You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.
The likely consequence of a hard border is either a) the resumption of the civil war in Ireland, or b) a united Ireland. Neither are particularly good outcomes, but I think the English would rather go with the latter than the former.
I’m sceptical. A generation of people have grown up outwith “the struggle”.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
Naive Charles. Another one who should head over there for a look see.
I do
But let’s have your counter arguments with facts not insults
I wrote three effing headers on it Charles.
And very good they were too.
tyvm
It's funny. Perhaps as @SouthamObserver is finding out it is difficult to envisage the dynamic and history over there as it is seemingly, to an observer (not a @SouthamObserver!) just another place in the UK.
Surely something has to break today so May has something to take to the Summit tomorrow. If she has nothing I do not think that an extension can be taken for granted. The incompetence of this is just mind blowing.
Since this whole Con-Lab enterprise looks obviously doomed it seems wiser to string it out: Better if TMay can say "we're negotiating with Labour" rather than "we tried negotiating with Labour and it didn't work, my current plan is to curl up in a ball and rock back and forth".
Yes, but even as someone fairly close to it all I can't work out if there's good-faith negotiating going on. It would suit May if Labour signed something, even if it meant a free vote on a referendum, since they believe they can beat that. It would possibly suit Corbyn to do a deal on customs union plus the above free vote - statesmanlike, and moves the issue on. And one shouldn't rule out the possibility that both sides have an eye to the national interest and avoiding a total car crash.
On the other hand, the partisan advantage for both sides of just going through the motions is obvious too. I really can't decide.
I think the car has crashed. They're just waiting for the smoke to clear before they can count the dead and injured.
So the view of the 48% of Brits who voted Remain are as important to the Brexit negotiations as those whose side won.... But the 44% of Northern Irish who voted to Leave don't matter because they've probably changed their minds?
It's almost as if a binary referendum on a complex issue is a rubbish way of making policy.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
You being stupid , it is the other half that are complaining. NI is not your normal place it is split as a normal occurence. England is just copying what is normal for NI. You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
England voted to Leave, so if we don't it's Scotland and NI deciding our future which is more unfair, as the UK as a whole voted Leave. Better to think of the four parts as one country. If Remain had won despite England voting to Leave I wouldn't have complained.
Scratch a liberty loving sovereigntist desperate to throw off the yoke of an undemocratic, centralising union, find a fan of an undemocratic, centralising union that always goes with the wishes of its largest member, as I always say.
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving really
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leave
You being stupid , it is the other half that are complaining. NI is not your normal place it is split as a normal occurence. England is just copying what is normal for NI. You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
England voted to Leave, so if we don't it's Scotland and NI deciding our future which is more unfair, as the UK as a whole voted Leave. Better to think of the four parts as one country. If Remain had won despite England voting to Leave I wouldn't have complained.
Scratch a liberty loving sovereigntist desperate to throw off the yoke of an undemocratic, centralising union, find a fan of an undemocratic, centralising union that always goes with the wishes of its largest member, as I always say.
You're one crazy guy
But if England voted Leave but the UK voted Remain I would have accepted it, so why are you implying otherwise?
Comments
May stood on a Manifesto that she would leave the Customs Union. If she can't deliver on that Manifesto commitment, perhaps she should follow Dave out the door marked in Number 10 marked exit?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_by-elections_(2010–present)
And over a hundred in the 2015 Election
So it might have helped if this had been central to the referendum debate.
The closeness of the vote suggests it was largely luck mixed with a slightly better educated and younger demographic who were prepared to look more closely at the facts.
How did you fall for that?
I mean, surely the titanic intellects of David Davis, Fox, Boris et al had all of this figured out?
Oh, I see the problem...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016
The problem came from the MPs demanding they had the final say. The have something like a 200 majority for Remain and that's the way they cast their votes in the referendum, no doubt. But that's where their input should have ended.
I know I keep bringing up a potential Scottish independence referendum, but the MPs will take exactly the same attitude (it's the arrogance thing). They will want to control and neuter the consequences. Think about those who lost, they must not be forgotten. Scotland must stay as close as possible to the UK. It will be independence in name only.
To gain true independence, the SNP have to win a majority in the HoC. The people don't count.
Rather regret not backing the 1.72 that was up for a day on EU elections being held.
Who do we think is the most intellectual, thoughtful and realistic leaver? Hannan?
The Southern Catholics were generally pro-EU. They've had a good few Euros from them. The most enthusiastic supporter of Brexit was a Belfast man. A Proddy but a man of intellect obviously.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/09/tony-blair-and-john-major-brexit-would-close-irish-border
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809
A falsehood has been perpetrated on the public and those responsible should be held to account for it.
Quite funny how Boris still has the ability to bend his detractors all out of shape.....
Actress Allison Mack pleads guilty in 'sex cult' case
This is a quite amazing story that has been boiling for some time, but appears to be reaching a conclusion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47858819
May's deal delivers on that assumption for the transitional period and promises to deliver it long term subject to what we can agree. No deal does not. It does not even come close. The ERG are not only lunatics, incompetents and fools who have seriously overplayed their hand. They are also liars.
MPs on both sides have shown continual lack of urgency, always something else will come along, more time will be found, their preferred option will open up.
So far they've been right about the time issue. No guarantee they will again, but they probably are. The EU want us to have a longer extension which is what all but a handful of labour want and many Tories want.
I don’t think they are going to pick up guns in large numbers
You’re going to get a continuation of the same low level gang based thuggery we’ve had for the last 20 years with lots of people blaming it on Brexit
You boys on here don't seem able to grip that England deciding your future is not everybody's cup of tea. There is no democracy in the UK, we all get what England wants.
He's only 3.75 to win the title. Which necessarily involves beating Vettel. Currently he's on 26 to Vettel's 22, although team orders may become a factor. (He should, of course, be on 36, but for that reliability failure).
Edited extra bit: the main potential problem is team orders. Otherwise, the odds are just too long.
On the other hand, the partisan advantage for both sides of just going through the motions is obvious too. I really can't decide.
Did you forget?
https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584
Obviously an extension could ultimately end up in the same place, but it could also conceivably end up with the WA or a PV-fueled revoke, both of which are much better. The intermediate Gimp Remain state is a nuisance but definitely not a catastrophe, as long as the British are still paying their bills and holding elections when they're supposed to.
Online gossip columns have been filled with this sort of unbelievable stuff for years, yet slowly but surely even the most far-fetched stories are turning out to be completely true.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47862622
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47802235
A trade war with the US as they try to protect Boeing from the consequences of their own incompetence, Germany on the edge of a recession, Italy already in one, there is a lot to do and they must be getting as bored of Brexit as the rest of us.
And it won't just be Hollywood: one of the frustrating things about people only ever obsessing about Muslim grooming gangs - abhorrent as they are - is that abuse is much larger in scale than that. The figures for abuse is truly staggering and shocking. We will probably all know someone who has been abused in the last year - even if we don't know it.
https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1115360525280534528
https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1115360532008198144
But let’s have your counter arguments with facts not insults
Should Scotland vote for independence, they will be in a similar position to rUK as we are to the EU, only with centuries of integration to undo, rather than decades. It's not an 'arrogance thing' at all. It is a democratic negotiation, with all the mess that entails.
The expectation that a magic wand can be waved and a new relationship between nations defined by a slim majority in one of those nations, in the space of a couple of years, is delusional.
If they were going down the referendum path then I can see how it could work, but this one...
NEW THREAD
It's funny. Perhaps as @SouthamObserver is finding out it is difficult to envisage the dynamic and history over there as it is seemingly, to an observer (not a @SouthamObserver!) just another place in the UK.
But if England voted Leave but the UK voted Remain I would have accepted it, so why are you implying otherwise?