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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Divided they fall. Alastair Meeks on the European elections

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    It seems more likely to me. Many are furious but the pro Brexit vote seems more split to me as I suspect tiggers will underwhelm, and the leave vote will be more dispirited even if some are furious .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    They are more pro EU than they used to be.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    The winners will be the nearest to the Kick Bishop Brennan Jean-Claude Juncker Up the Arse Party.
    Possibly. The Kick Fascists and Farage Up The Arse Party also has quite a following
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    CHUK, LDs, PC, SNP and Greens can all be fairly described as Pro EU, so you shouldn't have long to wait. SF too if the stand in NI.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    Referendums pale into insignificance when up against opinion poll panels, and marches/petitions that include those not qualified to vote and their multiple email addresses
    Or interference from a hostile power perhaps? Oh, hang on.....
    I have to say I think it's excessive to describe Obama as hostile.

    Weak, inept and vacillating, yes. Hostile, no.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    SG ducks the issue of what happens to PVs if they are cast and then the elections are cancelled before polling day. MPs suggesting this wouldn't be on.

    Why not?

    Just interested in the logical argument because surely if the election is cancelled the votes are meaningless?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    Referendums pale into insignificance when up against opinion poll panels, and marches/petitions that include those not qualified to vote and their multiple email addresses
    Or interference from a hostile power perhaps? Oh, hang on.....
    Obama? Nah didn’t make any difference
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234
    isam said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    We’ll see. I’m used to pre election mockery from over confident EU types, it paid a few bills in May 2015 and June 2016.
    Indeed. I do like being reminded of bets that I won. It almost makes up for the last one... :(
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Charles, sacre bleu!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    AndyJS said:

    "Democrats “are on the wrong side of the immigration argument, the core issue shaping Western politics,” says Andrew Sullivan, a moderate-minded liberal writer at New York magazine."

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/04/08/andrew-sullivan-no-democrat-immigration-policy-beat-trump/

    This Andrew Sullivan?

    'Sullivan describes himself as a conservative and is the author of The Conservative Soul.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Sullivan#Politics

    Good, old Breitbart, its desperation to move the Overton Window is palpable.
  • How awful are Leavers?

    They are allying themselves with the President of France.

    We need to call out their treason.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1115642666413436928
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    TGOHF said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    ydoethur said:

    But that would be illegal, and leave them with a much worse problem if we revoked.

    It is ironic to see the EU, having stood firmly to the letter of their rules all this time, frantically trying to find a way round them.

    The advantage would be that as it would make revoke much more difficult it may finally persuade certain intellectually challenged persons to vote for the deal at last.
    How would it be illegal? All they have to do is draft the extension conditions so that it expires if the UK violates them. They've already done this with the first extension.
    I don't think Article 50 provides for any conditions to be attached to an extension.
    It's already been done as part of the first extension. An extension requires unanimity, so making it conditional effectively just sets out terms under which consent for the extension would be removed.

    https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/XT-20006-2019-INIT/en/pdf

    "Such an extension excludes any re-opening of the Withdrawal Agreement. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act by the United Kingdom should be compatible with the letter and the spiritof the Withdrawal Agreement"
    There's no indication the extension is conditional on any of that. As I said, Article 50 doesn't provide for the extension to be conditional.

    If the UK wants to give promises about how it's going to behave, obviously it can, but it would be separate from the operation of Article 50.
    They could make it a rolling daily extension if you want to be pedantic about conditionality.
    Easy way around Cooper-Letwin then - PM calls Macron a twat every day, vetos all motions and stops Irish lorries at Holyhead for extensive customs checks.

    We will be out in no time.
    You seem to assume that the PM is a Tory Europhobe. They may well be neither of those descriptors.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    CHUK

    Thank you Dr.You know, until you put together that acronym I hadn't understood why the Tiggers and Chukka Ummunna picked such a stupid name.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    Referendums pale into insignificance when up against opinion poll panels, and marches/petitions that include those not qualified to vote and their multiple email addresses
    Or interference from a hostile power perhaps? Oh, hang on.....
    Obama? Nah didn’t make any difference
    Well, if you consider Putin to be no more hostile to the UK than Obama it is useful to have a clarification of your view. Crazy, but it is a view.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    AndyJS said:

    "Democrats “are on the wrong side of the immigration argument, the core issue shaping Western politics,” says Andrew Sullivan, a moderate-minded liberal writer at New York magazine."

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/04/08/andrew-sullivan-no-democrat-immigration-policy-beat-trump/

    This Andrew Sullivan?

    'Sullivan describes himself as a conservative and is the author of The Conservative Soul.'

    Winner of 2016 Ronnie Corbett World’s shortest book award
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    Referendums pale into insignificance when up against opinion poll panels, and marches/petitions that include those not qualified to vote and their multiple email addresses
    I do feel your pain, Sam. The country voted to leave and yet here we are not having left and looking as though we might not be for some time to come. Why don't we just leave? This Friday for example?

    I do have one question, though - let's suppose that the whole CBI, TUC, BoE, Michael Gove, You Name It predictions of economic chaos are not just project fear but are very close approximations of what may happen.

    Would you be happy to leave with no deal or are you happy to wait until we get some kind of deal whether it be the WA or a Lab-inspired compromise?
    In my opinion the deal should have been unquestioningly passed, and any MP who voted against it made a pariah by their peers.

    But I think the lack of threat of No Deal will make Remain MPs, buoyed by the three year filibuster, less likely to vote for any deal because they think they can hoodwink us into staying. So I didn’t want no deal, but it should have been the default on March 29th.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Tories railing against the world.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    How awful are Leavers?

    They are allying themselves with the President of France.

    We need to call out their treason.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1115642666413436928

    Is that an improvement or otherwise on their alignment with Putin?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    Such polling as there is suggests that the vote share for parties running on a Leave EU platform will exceed 45%. In general, people are pretty bad at predicting the likely actions of political opponents.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    Referendums pale into insignificance when up against opinion poll panels, and marches/petitions that include those not qualified to vote and their multiple email addresses
    Or interference from a hostile power perhaps? Oh, hang on.....
    Obama? Nah didn’t make any difference
    Well, if you consider Putin to be no more hostile to the UK than Obama it is useful to have a clarification of your view. Crazy, but it is a view.
    Neither had any effect I’d say.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    We will be comparing to 2014, when pro-EU voters were complacent and anti-EU voters were motivated to vote against the evil Empire.

    Sure some Leave voters will be pissed off that the elections are happening, but they were pissed off in 2014. The major change is that pro-EU voters are mobilised.

    Looking forward to seeing if I'm wrong!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    IanB2 said:

    Tories railing against the world.

    It's distressing. One of the USPs of the Tories has traditionally been that they deal with the world as it actually is, not some abstract theory about how it ought to be. That is being thrown away along with the other USP of economic competence. It doesn't leave much, except that the alternative is even worse on both counts.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234
    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    CHUK, LDs, PC, SNP and Greens can all be fairly described as Pro EU, so you shouldn't have long to wait. SF too if the stand in NI.
    IIRC SF used to be anti-EU (EC,EEC, whatevs). I think the Greens are a bit split on the matter, but given their highly devolved structure that's perhaps to be expected.

    It's a bit sad. European politics, whether national or pan-European, has changed and grown remarkably since 79 and entities such as the EP and others enabled this to be tracked. This will continue post-Brexit but it's like doing a puzzle with a piece removed. Although I do appreciate Leavers had different priorities than satisfying my statistical urges... :)
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    We will be comparing to 2014, when pro-EU voters were complacent and anti-EU voters were motivated to vote against the evil Empire.

    Sure some Leave voters will be pissed off that the elections are happening, but they were pissed off in 2014. The major change is that pro-EU voters are mobilised.

    Looking forward to seeing if I'm wrong!

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    We will be comparing to 2014, when pro-EU voters were complacent and anti-EU voters were motivated to vote against the evil Empire.

    Sure some Leave voters will be pissed off that the elections are happening, but they were pissed off in 2014. The major change is that pro-EU voters are mobilised.

    Looking forward to seeing if I'm wrong!
    It’s hard for me to imagine why remain inclined voters would be pissed off. They lost three years ago and they still haven’t had to pay out, they should be ecstatic.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited April 2019

    How awful are Leavers?

    They are allying themselves with the President of France.

    We need to call out their treason.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1115642666413436928

    Is that an improvement or otherwise on their alignment with Putin?
    Worse, we've been enemies with the Russians since 1945 with the French we're going back a millenium.

    Edit - I'm ignoring the Great Game.
  • TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Casino Royale is a Remainer?

    He's been harder on the ERG than I have been.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234
    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    An uncomfortably good point... :(
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    Referendums pale into insignificance when up against opinion poll panels, and marches/petitions that include those not qualified to vote and their multiple email addresses
    I do feel your pain, Sam. The country voted to leave and yet here we are not having left and looking as though we might not be for some time to come. Why don't we just leave? This Friday for example?

    I do have one question, though - let's suppose that the whole CBI, TUC, BoE, Michael Gove, You Name It predictions of economic chaos are not just project fear but are very close approximations of what may happen.

    Would you be happy to leave with no deal or are you happy to wait until we get some kind of deal whether it be the WA or a Lab-inspired compromise?
    In my opinion the deal should have been unquestioningly passed, and any MP who voted against it made a pariah by their peers.

    But I think the lack of threat of No Deal will make Remain MPs, buoyed by the three year filibuster, less likely to vote for any deal because they think they can hoodwink us into staying. So I didn’t want no deal, but it should have been the default on March 29th.
    Would you be happy with no deal now?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    edited April 2019

    How awful are Leavers?

    They are allying themselves with the President of France.

    We need to call out their treason.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1115642666413436928

    Is that an improvement or otherwise on their alignment with Putin?
    Worse, we've been enemies with the Russians since 1945 with the French we're going back a millenium.
    I seem to recall there were a few spats with the Russians before 45 - there was the Crimean War for a start, and the Russian Civil War...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Leavers bash them too. Indeed, the erg have turned leavers into remainers. Sorry if that is irritating but it's true.
  • ydoethur said:

    How awful are Leavers?

    They are allying themselves with the President of France.

    We need to call out their treason.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1115642666413436928

    Is that an improvement or otherwise on their alignment with Putin?
    Worse, we've been enemies with the Russians since 1945 with the French we're going back a millenium.
    I seem to recall there were a few spats with the Russians before 45 - there was the Crimean War for a start.
    See my edit.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    Yes - we aren't far away from a "run on the bank".
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The ERG nutjobs and their followers are trying to incite violence . Disgraceful .
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
    malc - I wouldn't mind if they were genuinely funny - they are usually repetitive and of low wit.

    I don't have any such expectations for your posts - so carry on.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    ydoethur said:

    How awful are Leavers?

    They are allying themselves with the President of France.

    We need to call out their treason.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1115642666413436928

    Is that an improvement or otherwise on their alignment with Putin?
    Worse, we've been enemies with the Russians since 1945 with the French we're going back a millenium.
    I seem to recall there were a few spats with the Russians before 45 - there was the Crimean War for a start.
    See my edit.
    And mine...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    How awful are Leavers?

    They are allying themselves with the President of France.

    We need to call out their treason.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1115642666413436928

    This is actually not as dumb as it seems. Despite the flaws of CU or the WA i would suggest not as many will be outraged at those outcomes as the ERG would like. Some, at least, will in sheer exhaustion wait and see. Forcing the commons to revoke or no deal would ensure they either get what they want or they ensure an outcome that will definitely provoke a severe reaction from a lot more people.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    CHUK, LDs, PC, SNP and Greens can all be fairly described as Pro EU, so you shouldn't have long to wait. SF too if the stand in NI.
    IIRC SF used to be anti-EU (EC,EEC, whatevs). I think the Greens are a bit split on the matter, but given their highly devolved structure that's perhaps to be expected.

    It's a bit sad. European politics, whether national or pan-European, has changed and grown remarkably since 79 and entities such as the EP and others enabled this to be tracked. This will continue post-Brexit but it's like doing a puzzle with a piece removed. Although I do appreciate Leavers had different priorities than satisfying my statistical urges... :)
    I think the Greens are definitely pro EU now, as they see the need for pan continental action on environmental issues. SF strongly backed Remain, presumably because of the Irish border.

    Though except for the swivel eyed splitters of UKIP and their fragments, pretty much all of the parties have fairrly europhile candidates as MEPs, as they are the ones interested. Take this Tory MEP for example:

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1110946588015427590?s=19
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited April 2019
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    Referendums pale into insignificance when up against opinion poll panels, and marches/petitions that include those not qualified to vote and their multiple email addresses
    I do feel your pain, Sam. The country voted to leave and yet here we are not having left and looking as though we might not be for some time to come. Why don't we just leave? This Friday for example?

    I do have one question, though - let's suppose that the whole CBI, TUC, BoE, Michael Gove, You Name It predictions of economic chaos are not just project fear but are very close approximations of what may happen.

    Would you be happy to leave with no deal or are you happy to wait until we get some kind of deal whether it be the WA or a Lab-inspired compromise?
    In my opinion the deal should have been unquestioningly passed, and any MP who voted against it made a pariah by their peers.

    But I think the lack of threat of No Deal will make Remain MPs, buoyed by the three year filibuster, less likely to vote for any deal because they think they can hoodwink us into staying. So I didn’t want no deal, but it should have been the default on March 29th.
    Would you be happy with no deal now?
    Not happy, but better than no Brexit yes. The point I think is, a point made by Portillo last month, that if we had been serious about leaving with no deal, we would have got a better deal that MPs would have voted for.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    Yes - we aren't far away from a "run on the bank".
    Wash your mouth out with soap, Sir!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    Yes - we aren't far away from a "run on the bank".
    Wash your mouth out with soap, Sir!
    Why? Does such a thought give you the Trots?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    So they are basically admitting the plan was to use the talks to justify an extension and they can break them off afterwards?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited April 2019
    "Another Tory Brexiter has given a speech saying that it would be a mistake for the EU to offer the UK a long article 50 extension because the UK would end up being a disruptive influence. It was Tim Loughton, a former minister, speaking in the Brexit debate a few minutes ago.

    Loughton is much less of a hardliner than Mark Francois and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the other Brexiters who have been making this argument today. Loughton voted against Theresa May’s deal in January, but voted for it in the subsequent two debate.

    Addressing the EU in the debate, he said:

    "If the EU elections go ahead, it is highly likely that UK will elect an army of Nigel Farage Mini-Mes who will frankly wreck havoc with the European parliament and wreck your calculations about the balance of power within the EU."

    Loughton said there was no prospect of May agreeing a deal with Labour that would be acceptable to majority of Conservative MPs and he said within the next few months the EU could be dealing with a different prime minister. " "
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
    malc - I wouldn't mind if they were genuinely funny - they are usually repetitive and of low wit.

    I don't have any such expectations for your posts - so carry on.

    Malc? You flatter me!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    I think I see a little bit of a timing flaw in this plan....
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,234
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    CHUK, LDs, PC, SNP and Greens can all be fairly described as Pro EU, so you shouldn't have long to wait. SF too if the stand in NI.
    IIRC SF used to be anti-EU (EC,EEC, whatevs). I think the Greens are a bit split on the matter, but given their highly devolved structure that's perhaps to be expected.

    It's a bit sad. European politics, whether national or pan-European, has changed and grown remarkably since 79 and entities such as the EP and others enabled this to be tracked. This will continue post-Brexit but it's like doing a puzzle with a piece removed. Although I do appreciate Leavers had different priorities than satisfying my statistical urges... :)
    I think the Greens are definitely pro EU now, as they see the need for pan continental action on environmental issues. SF strongly backed Remain, presumably because of the Irish border.

    Though except for the swivel eyed splitters of UKIP and their fragments, pretty much all of the parties have fairrly europhile candidates as MEPs, as they are the ones interested. Take this Tory MEP for example:

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1110946588015427590?s=19
    Indeed.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    CHUK, LDs, PC, SNP and Greens can all be fairly described as Pro EU, so you shouldn't have long to wait. SF too if the stand in NI.
    IIRC SF used to be anti-EU (EC,EEC, whatevs). I think the Greens are a bit split on the matter, but given their highly devolved structure that's perhaps to be expected.

    It's a bit sad. European politics, whether national or pan-European, has changed and grown remarkably since 79 and entities such as the EP and others enabled this to be tracked. This will continue post-Brexit but it's like doing a puzzle with a piece removed. Although I do appreciate Leavers had different priorities than satisfying my statistical urges... :)
    I think the Greens are definitely pro EU now, as they see the need for pan continental action on environmental issues. SF strongly backed Remain, presumably because of the Irish border.

    Though except for the swivel eyed splitters of UKIP and their fragments, pretty much all of the parties have fairrly europhile candidates as MEPs, as they are the ones interested. Take this Tory MEP for example:

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1110946588015427590?s=19
    The Conservative MEP's were fervently pro-EU at one point.
  • kle4 said:

    So they are basically admitting the plan was to use the talks to justify an extension and they can break them off afterwards?
    You cynic.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    TGOHF said:

    IanB2 said:

    This debate seems a bit pointless as about the June extension with most in favour and the ERG against, when the real decision is about a longer extension or not.

    Poor Mike - his own tactics came to bite him on the rear. Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke.
    And so unlike anything we see in politics.....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
    malc - I wouldn't mind if they were genuinely funny - they are usually repetitive and of low wit.

    I don't have any such expectations for your posts - so carry on.

    Whats this Harry abusing me for someone else's post , a new low.
  • I think I see a little bit of a timing flaw in this plan....
    Cart before the horse.

    We need an extension so Labour and the government can sort stuff out.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    CHUK, LDs, PC, SNP and Greens can all be fairly described as Pro EU, so you shouldn't have long to wait. SF too if the stand in NI.
    IIRC SF used to be anti-EU (EC,EEC, whatevs). I think the Greens are a bit split on the matter, but given their highly devolved structure that's perhaps to be expected.

    It's a bit sad. European politics, whether national or pan-European, has changed and grown remarkably since 79 and entities such as the EP and others enabled this to be tracked. This will continue post-Brexit but it's like doing a puzzle with a piece removed. Although I do appreciate Leavers had different priorities than satisfying my statistical urges... :)
    With Scottish, Welsh, and Irish nationalists, they've switched from opposing EU membership to supporting it, as it makes breaking away from the UK easier.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
    malc - I wouldn't mind if they were genuinely funny - they are usually repetitive and of low wit.

    I don't have any such expectations for your posts - so carry on.

    Whats this Harry abusing me for someone else's post , a new low.
    Tbf I think he was complimenting you!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Sean_F said:

    The Conservative MEP's were fervently pro-EU at one point.

    Richard Ashworth is an independent now, he lost the Conservative whip.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,852
    edited April 2019
    RobC said:

    It could be the dysfunctional Tories will not be bothered if their vote collapses. As for the UKIP v Brexit party battle it would sum up how ludicrous the whole saga has been if they are unable to come to an electoral arrangement and helped to increase the chances of no Brexit thanks to a fractured pro Brexit vote damaging their cause further.

    Makes perfect sense. They really ought to fight a joint ticket and seek to hoover up as much of the Leave vote as possible. Should not be too difficult on the face of it since their core Brexit positions are identical. They want a Hard Brexit! and they want it now!

    However, there is a possible snag in that Gerard Batten and UKIP have recently adopted Islamophobia as a flagship policy. They do not merely want a Hard Brexit, they want a Muslim Free Brexit. This is not mere posturing. They are as opposed to Muslims as they are to EU membership. More so, if anything.

    So how will this play with Nigel Farage and his Brexit vehicle? Will he force UKIP to drop that controversial commitment for the purposes of the European elections? Or will he cave in and embrace it, perhaps with a view to reneging once safely elected?

    This issue should not be underestimated. Shorn of their distinctive anti-Muslim branding, UKIP could suffer at the polls. OTOH, the Brexit party, if they have the Islam thing stuffed down their throats, risk losing much of their support amongst progressive metropolitan liberals.

    It could be a deal breaker.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    Yes - we aren't far away from a "run on the bank".
    Wash your mouth out with soap, Sir!
    Why? Does such a thought give you the Trots?
    More like saying “Macbeth” to an actor before they go on stage
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    "Another Tory Brexiter has given a speech saying that it would be a mistake for the EU to offer the UK a long article 50 extension because the UK would end up being a disruptive influence. It was Tim Loughton, a former minister, speaking in the Brexit debate a few minutes ago.

    Loughton is much less of a hardliner than Mark Francois and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the other Brexiters who have been making this argument today. Loughton voted against Theresa May’s deal in January, but voted for it in the subsequent two debate.

    Addressing the EU in the debate, he said:

    If the EU elections go ahead, it is highly likely that UK will elect an army of Nigel Farage Mini-Mes who will frankly wreck havoc with the European parliament and wreck your calculations about the balance of power within the EU.

    Loughton said there was no prospect of May agreeing a deal with Labour that would be acceptable to majority of Conservative MPs and he said within the next few months the EU could be dealing with a different prime minister. "

    It's highly likely 15 different parties will have Nigel Farage mini-me candidates resulting in other parties winning down the middle.

    Nigel Farage is going to have to perform miracles to ensure his Brexit supporters vote for his party and not UKIP.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    We will be comparing to 2014, when pro-EU voters were complacent and anti-EU voters were motivated to vote against the evil Empire.

    Sure some Leave voters will be pissed off that the elections are happening, but they were pissed off in 2014. The major change is that pro-EU voters are mobilised.

    Looking forward to seeing if I'm wrong!
    You also have 3 million EU voters who couldn't vote in the referendum in 2016. This will be their first chance to give a view on Brexit. If they turn out in any numbers on a low turnout election overall, they could have a significant say in the outcome.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Well everything is going swimmingly well.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    edited April 2019
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The media keep playing the narrative that the EU elections will return a huge pro Brexit contingent . Completely ignoring the possibility that pro EU parties could do well.

    Are there any pro-EU parties ? Or are they just anti-Brexit.

    I look forward to their pro-EU manifestoes..
    CHUK, LDs, PC, SNP and Greens can all be fairly described as Pro EU, so you shouldn't have long to wait. SF too if the stand in NI.
    IIRC SF used to be anti-EU (EC,EEC, whatevs). I think the Greens are a bit split on the matter, but given their highly devolved structure that's perhaps to be expected.

    It's a bit sad. European politics, whether national or pan-European, has changed and grown remarkably since 79 and entities such as the EP and others enabled this to be tracked. This will continue post-Brexit but it's like doing a puzzle with a piece removed. Although I do appreciate Leavers had different priorities than satisfying my statistical urges... :)
    With Scottish, Welsh, and Irish nationalists, they've switched from opposing EU membership to supporting it, as it makes breaking away from the UK easier.
    It could be said that Cons & Labs used to favour the EU because (among other reasons) it made breaking away from the UK more problematic. Now, who the fuck knows.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Division on the motion.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    kinabalu said:

    RobC said:

    It could be the dysfunctional Tories will not be bothered if their vote collapses. As for the UKIP v Brexit party battle it would sum up how ludicrous the whole saga has been if they are unable to come to an electoral arrangement and helped to increase the chances of no Brexit thanks to a fractured pro Brexit vote damaging their cause further.

    Makes perfect sense. They really ought to fight a joint ticket and seek to hoover up as much of the Leave vote as possible. Should not be too difficult on the face of it since their core Brexit positions are identical. They want a Hard Brexit! and they want it now!

    However, there is a possible snag in that Gerard Batten and UKIP have recently adopted Islamophobia as a flagship policy. They do not merely want a Hard Brexit, they want a Muslim Free Brexit. This is not mere posturing. They are as opposed to Muslims as they are to EU membership. More so, if anything.

    So how will this play with Nigel Farage and his Brexit vehicle? Will he force UKIP to drop that controversial commitment for the purposes of the European elections? Or will he cave in and embrace it, perhaps with a view to reneging once safely elected?

    This issue should not be underestimated. Shorn of their distinctive anti-Muslim branding, UKIP could suffer at the polls. OTOH, the Brexit party, if they have the Islam thing stuffed down their throats, risk losing much of their support amongst progressive metropolitan liberals.

    It could be a deal breaker.
    Are there any progressive, metropolitan liberals that support The Brexit Party?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    Sean_F said:

    The Conservative MEP's were fervently pro-EU at one point.

    Richard Ashworth is an independent now, he lost the Conservative whip.
    I see he tried to stop talks on the Withdrawal Agreement from progressing, in an attempt to prevent Brexit from taking place. He's as much a fanatic as Francois, in his way/
  • If you're looking for an excuse to drink gin.

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1115646327826845697
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    But that leaves open the question whether the man in the street buys the increasingly (with the elapse of time) paradoxical notion that a further referendum is anti democratic. Obviously parliament just revoking and moving on would be a different matter.

    I don't anyway quake in my boots at the notion of all this justified anger at the betrayal of the will of the people. I am sure a few EDL types will stone some dachshunds to death for being German and leavers are already practising saying "while I do not condone violence in any circumstances..." in a gloating kind of way, but life will go on.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Conservative MEP's were fervently pro-EU at one point.

    Richard Ashworth is an independent now, he lost the Conservative whip.
    I see he tried to stop talks on the Withdrawal Agreement from progressing, in an attempt to prevent Brexit from taking place. He's as much a fanatic as Francois, in his way/
    He's certainly Europhile, to use that much-overused description. I remember thinking he was very much an outlier when he used to speak at our Sussex Conservative meetings from time to time.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    But that leaves open the question whether the man in the street buys the increasingly (with the elapse of time) paradoxical notion that a further referendum is anti democratic. Obviously parliament just revoking and moving on would be a different matter.

    I don't anyway quake in my boots at the notion of all this justified anger at the betrayal of the will of the people. I am sure a few EDL types will stone some dachshunds to death for being German and leavers are already practising saying "while I do not condone violence in any circumstances..." in a gloating kind of way, but life will go on.
    I doubt the man in the street would think that. But they (I think) will be frustrated that they are being asked the same question again with no apparent change in the UK’s status.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
    malc - I wouldn't mind if they were genuinely funny - they are usually repetitive and of low wit.

    I don't have any such expectations for your posts - so carry on.

    Whats this Harry abusing me for someone else's post , a new low.
    Tbf I think he was complimenting you!
    Apologies malc - the lack of turnips in the post should have been a clue.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,572
    kle4 said:

    So they are basically admitting the plan was to use the talks to justify an extension and they can break them off afterwards?
    There isn't any need to justify an extension. An offer that the UK made to kick the can down the road would ultimately be accepted, even if the only condition were that no conditions were attached. The one outcome that the EU wishes to avoid above all others is that the UK leaves without having our hands tied prior to the negotiations that would inevitably follow.

    In practice, there will be conditions, because it in the PM's interest to agree to EU demands that would constrain the process.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    kle4 said:

    So they are basically admitting the plan was to use the talks to justify an extension and they can break them off afterwards?
    You cynic.
    Cynic: what an idealist calls a realist.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited April 2019
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    But that leaves open the question whether the man in the street buys the increasingly (with the elapse of time) paradoxical notion that a further referendum is anti democratic. Obviously parliament just revoking and moving on would be a different matter.

    I don't anyway quake in my boots at the notion of all this justified anger at the betrayal of the will of the people. I am sure a few EDL types will stone some dachshunds to death for being German and leavers are already practising saying "while I do not condone violence in any circumstances..." in a gloating kind of way, but life will go on.
    I find that first sentence to be paradoxical. Yes the longer from 2016 it gets, referring to the 2016 referendum as ‘the will of the people’ carries less weight, but it also means that the 2016 Remainers are continuing to get their own way, and not suffering any of the adverse effects of losing, by not letting us leave, which is equally ridiculous.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
    malc - I wouldn't mind if they were genuinely funny - they are usually repetitive and of low wit.

    I don't have any such expectations for your posts - so carry on.

    Whats this Harry abusing me for someone else's post , a new low.
    Tbf I think he was complimenting you!
    Apologies malc - the lack of turnips in the post should have been a clue.
    LOL :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    On topic, I knew there had been a lot of splits in the MEP ranks from the UK, but to see it all laid out there, wow.

    kle4 said:

    So they are basically admitting the plan was to use the talks to justify an extension and they can break them off afterwards?
    There isn't any need to justify an extension. An offer that the UK made to kick the can down the road would ultimately be accepted, even if the only condition were that no conditions were attached. The one outcome that the EU wishes to avoid above all others is that the UK leaves without having our hands tied prior to the negotiations that would inevitably follow.

    In practice, there will be conditions, because it in the PM's interest to agree to EU demands that would constrain the process.
    I'm sure a justification is not needed, but a pretext probably makes the EU leaders feel better for a day when they agree it, and they can get righteously angry about one of the 'reasons' evaporating afterwards, which they'll also enjoy.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,852
    edited April 2019
    isam said:

    Are there any progressive, metropolitan liberals that support The Brexit Party?

    Most certainly!

    We are talking here of those who are passionate for Leave - even now when it looks to most observers like an utter shambles - and yet are at the same time just as passionate for open borders and multiculturalism.

    There are of the order 37 such individuals in the country. And most of them are on here.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    You should have thought of that before campaigning for something that the 'system' couldn't deliver.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    So they are basically admitting the plan was to use the talks to justify an extension and they can break them off afterwards?
    You cynic.
    Cynic: what an idealist calls a realist.
    Nah. While I may in this case be correct, I am also a glass half empty chap by nature even when not right.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    nico67 said:

    The ERG seem intent to piss off as many more moderate MPs as possible by their disgraceful behaviour.

    Trying to sabotage an extension is more likely to see more Tories supporting revoke if it comes to that .

    Zzzzz - this ERG bashing by remainers is utterly dull. Move on.
    Might consider it, once you admit what a ball aching embarrassment they are to your cause.
    malc - I wouldn't mind if they were genuinely funny - they are usually repetitive and of low wit.

    I don't have any such expectations for your posts - so carry on.

    Whats this Harry abusing me for someone else's post , a new low.
    Tbf I think he was complimenting you!
    Indeed he was , even if it was meant for you
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    But that leaves open the question whether the man in the street buys the increasingly (with the elapse of time) paradoxical notion that a further referendum is anti democratic. Obviously parliament just revoking and moving on would be a different matter.

    I don't anyway quake in my boots at the notion of all this justified anger at the betrayal of the will of the people. I am sure a few EDL types will stone some dachshunds to death for being German and leavers are already practising saying "while I do not condone violence in any circumstances..." in a gloating kind of way, but life will go on.
    They may not buy into it quite yet but if a losers revote is confirmed then there will be a vast amount of publicity given to the fact that they have been ignored and that they are being told to go back and vote again because they got it wrong the first time. A month or so of that should bring things nicely to boiling point.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    eek said:

    "Another Tory Brexiter has given a speech saying that it would be a mistake for the EU to offer the UK a long article 50 extension because the UK would end up being a disruptive influence. It was Tim Loughton, a former minister, speaking in the Brexit debate a few minutes ago.

    Loughton is much less of a hardliner than Mark Francois and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the other Brexiters who have been making this argument today. Loughton voted against Theresa May’s deal in January, but voted for it in the subsequent two debate.

    Addressing the EU in the debate, he said:

    If the EU elections go ahead, it is highly likely that UK will elect an army of Nigel Farage Mini-Mes who will frankly wreck havoc with the European parliament and wreck your calculations about the balance of power within the EU.

    Loughton said there was no prospect of May agreeing a deal with Labour that would be acceptable to majority of Conservative MPs and he said within the next few months the EU could be dealing with a different prime minister. "

    It's highly likely 15 different parties will have Nigel Farage mini-me candidates resulting in other parties winning down the middle.

    Nigel Farage is going to have to perform miracles to ensure his Brexit supporters vote for his party and not UKIP.
    UKIP and the Brexit Party are the ones that have brand recognition, and which show up in opinion polls.

    There'll be other anti-EU parties like English Democrats, BNP, Democrats & Veterans, UK First etc., but they'll only get penny packets of support.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Are there any progressive, metropolitan liberals that support The Brexit Party?

    Most certainly!

    We are talking here of those who are passionate for Leave - even now when it looks to most observers like an utter shambles - and yet are at the same time just as passionate for open borders and multiculturalism.

    There are of the order 37 such individuals in the country. And most of them are on here.
    Haha 😂That made me laugh 👍🏻
  • Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    "Another Tory Brexiter has given a speech saying that it would be a mistake for the EU to offer the UK a long article 50 extension because the UK would end up being a disruptive influence. It was Tim Loughton, a former minister, speaking in the Brexit debate a few minutes ago.

    Loughton is much less of a hardliner than Mark Francois and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the other Brexiters who have been making this argument today. Loughton voted against Theresa May’s deal in January, but voted for it in the subsequent two debate.

    Addressing the EU in the debate, he said:

    If the EU elections go ahead, it is highly likely that UK will elect an army of Nigel Farage Mini-Mes who will frankly wreck havoc with the European parliament and wreck your calculations about the balance of power within the EU.

    Loughton said there was no prospect of May agreeing a deal with Labour that would be acceptable to majority of Conservative MPs and he said within the next few months the EU could be dealing with a different prime minister. "

    It's highly likely 15 different parties will have Nigel Farage mini-me candidates resulting in other parties winning down the middle.

    Nigel Farage is going to have to perform miracles to ensure his Brexit supporters vote for his party and not UKIP.
    UKIP and the Brexit Party are the ones that have brand recognition, and which show up in opinion polls.

    There'll be other anti-EU parties like English Democrats, BNP, Democrats & Veterans, UK First etc., but they'll only get penny packets of support.

    Where's gay donkey raped my horse man these days?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    Breitbart: 'Morton Klein, moderate-minded liberal president of peace-seeking, moderate liberal Zionist Organization of America'
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    You should have thought of that before campaigning for something that the 'system' couldn't deliver.
    The system can deliver it. The issue is whether it wants to.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined

    How is confidence impacted when the campaign is shown to have been illegal?

    In any other context, the original vote would be void, to maintain confidence in the process...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    You should have thought of that before campaigning for something that the 'system' couldn't deliver.
    It can deliver it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    "Another Tory Brexiter has given a speech saying that it would be a mistake for the EU to offer the UK a long article 50 extension because the UK would end up being a disruptive influence. It was Tim Loughton, a former minister, speaking in the Brexit debate a few minutes ago.

    Loughton is much less of a hardliner than Mark Francois and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the other Brexiters who have been making this argument today. Loughton voted against Theresa May’s deal in January, but voted for it in the subsequent two debate.

    Addressing the EU in the debate, he said:

    If the EU elections go ahead, it is highly likely that UK will elect an army of Nigel Farage Mini-Mes who will frankly wreck havoc with the European parliament and wreck your calculations about the balance of power within the EU.

    Loughton said there was no prospect of May agreeing a deal with Labour that would be acceptable to majority of Conservative MPs and he said within the next few months the EU could be dealing with a different prime minister. "

    It's highly likely 15 different parties will have Nigel Farage mini-me candidates resulting in other parties winning down the middle.

    Nigel Farage is going to have to perform miracles to ensure his Brexit supporters vote for his party and not UKIP.
    UKIP and the Brexit Party are the ones that have brand recognition, and which show up in opinion polls.

    There'll be other anti-EU parties like English Democrats, BNP, Democrats & Veterans, UK First etc., but they'll only get penny packets of support.

    Where's gay donkey raped my horse man these days?
    His party got 0.8% in the Newport West by-election. Spot the logo
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats_and_Veterans
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    I doubt the man in the street would think that. But they (I think) will be frustrated that they are being asked the same question again with no apparent change in the UK’s status.

    They may be frustrated, but that does not mean they would regard it as illegitimate.

    If, after a GE, no stable government can be formed, we vote again.

    That does not erode trust in the system. It assures it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    timmo said:

    The remainers are enthused and motivated to come out and vote..the Brexit side not so..therefore it can only be one result..a large number of Lib Dem and Change Uk MEPs

    I really don’t see it that way. The very fact there are Euro Elections being held is a massive Fuck You to Leave voters. They’re not represented on here or Twitter, but there are a lot of people angry at that, and it is big motivation for anti EU parties, akin to a football manager slagging an opposing team off and their boss putting the clippings on the dressing room wall
    What like the Leave march, and the Leave petition? titter
    Or the referendum itself perhaps ?

    Of course that was back in the day when we had a democracy and votes counted.
    We have never had a democracy. We certainly do not have a referendum based democracy, and there were substantial flaws in that referendum which are enough to question its legitimacy. I don't favour referenda, particularly simplistic ones, but if we must be held hostage to them, then Leave advocates should not be afraid to get clarification from "the people". The Brexit referendum is the opiate of the masses; it prevents you from seeing the glaring problems with our system of representation that are far more in need of reform than our membership of the EU.
    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined
    I don't anyway quake in my boots at the notion of all this justified anger at the betrayal of the will of the people. I am sure a few EDL types will stone some dachshunds to death for being German and leavers are already practising saying "while I do not condone violence in any circumstances..." in a gloating kind of way, but life will go on.
    Leave or Revoke, I expect Mr Yaxley Lennon to be busy either sttirring up race riots, or staring at prison walls. After all that is what he has done for the last 10 years, and it is hard to see him changing his spots. You don't get fascists off your back by giving into them, as Tories tell us endlessly*.

    *Despite or because of the fact that the Tory party was the appeasement party in the 1930s.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Motion for a June extension carried 420 v 110

    An anticlimax, really, after the drama of getting Letwin-Cooper through. The debate should have been on a longer extension. MPs appear to be waiting for the EU to force this upon us.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined

    How is confidence impacted when the campaign is shown to have been illegal?

    In any other context, the original vote would be void, to maintain confidence in the process...
    No it wouldn't, unless you think every breach of electoral law leads to the voiding of an election. Which you know it doesn't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Are there any progressive, metropolitan liberals that support The Brexit Party?

    Most certainly!

    We are talking here of those who are passionate for Leave - even now when it looks to most observers like an utter shambles - and yet are at the same time just as passionate for open borders and multiculturalism.

    There are of the order 37 such individuals in the country. And most of them are on here.
    Good bunch.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined

    How is confidence impacted when the campaign is shown to have been illegal?

    In any other context, the original vote would be void, to maintain confidence in the process...
    Exceeding a spending limit rarely invalidates an election result (eg Thanet South in 2015, or West Belfast in 1992). You'd need to demonstrate that it affected the result. That would be impossible in this case, as Remain hugely outspent Leave.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The issue is that democracy is, like banking, a confidence game.

    Regardless of the technicalities the public believes they live in a democracy

    If they stop believing that then the legitimacy of the whole system is undermined

    How is confidence impacted when the campaign is shown to have been illegal?

    In any other context, the original vote would be void, to maintain confidence in the process...
    There was an article yesterday saying that the appeals court had accepted they were “mistakes” with no malicious intent and reduced the fine.

    But in any event overturning the response would not be deemed by a court to be a proportionate response
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited April 2019
    kle4 said:


    His party got 0.8% in the Newport West by-election. Spot the logo
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats_and_Veterans

    Heh.

    From that link, the diarrhoea and vomiting party are targeting Essex.

    [Insert cheap gags about Essex here]

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-42862247
This discussion has been closed.