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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ex-CON leader betting favourite, Javid, drops sharply amidst r

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited April 10 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ex-CON leader betting favourite, Javid, drops sharply amidst reports of plots to block him

Betdata.io chart of movement on the Betfair exchange

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Comments

  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 1,655
    edited April 10
    First! Like... Boris?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,602
    Second! Like Leave
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    edited April 10
    Is Javid not plunging after launching his farcical North Korean style internet "i-plod" policy ?

    Certainly shot himself in the foot.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    Hes not been very visible since Begum. Thats got more to do with it. In news/doing interviews leads to small increase in % chance. He will feature, but I doubt he gets to a final two now.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    Devonshire dockyard evacuated. Bae confirm on going incident, rumours of a bomb on one of the Asture class subs! This is zero hedge though.......
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    edited April 10


    Not a great look rn

    Edit - although as ever Zerohedge has sensationalized what looks like a possibly false bomb threat
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 25,690
    What is truly remarkable is both the diversity and spread of the field. One of May's few remaining strengths is that there is no consensus at all on who should replace her. This inclines more to hold onto nurse than might otherwise be the case. If you are a Javid supporter do you feel it is worth risking Boris? Or Raab? As with Brexit far more are against any one candidate than support any other.

    We can't go on like this-v-OMG, we can't have that. It's a tough call.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,245
    Afternoon all :)

    Has anyone mentioned this curious polling offering?

    https://hanburystrategycloud.filecloudonline.com/ui/core/index.html?mode=single&path=/SHARED/data/gux0YC3cc8BBIHJB

    For those who can't be arsed to read the tables, LAB 40% CON 31%.

    Yes, I know...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 22,749
    edited April 10
    I wouldn't read too much into either the current odds or movements in them. A lot will depend on the exact timing of any contest, the crucial question of which candidates are best at organising a campaign amongst MPs and setting up alliances, and on how the leading candidates perform in the campaign both at the MP level and the membership level. Javid certainly has a decent chance but I have the impression that Jeremy Hunt (who is fishing in similar waters) is ahead on campaign readiness.

    The one big anomaly in the market IMO is that the odds on Boris are far too short.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 25,690
    TGOHF said:

    Is Javid not plunging after launching his farcical North Korean style internet "i-plod" policy ?

    Certainly shot himself in the foot.

    Not sure about that. Whilst I have reservations it is nice to see some Cabinet Minister doing something, anything other than looking miserable about Brexit.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,183
    Scott_P said:
    So Steve Baker would jump from a plane, Mark Francois would have a shotgun put in his mouth, are the hardliners looking to create Remainer fantasies or is that just a windfall benefit?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,245
    I do wonder IF, and I know she won't or can't, May deciding we would leave without a WA on Friday evening might give the Conservative poll rating a significant temporary boost. She would have delivered - we'd be out of the EU, a lot of people (if I am to believe Facebook and Twitter) would be overjoyed.

    The Union Jacks would be flying and May's path would be strewn with rose petal where'er she trod.

    Presumably the actual impact of leaving without a WA might depress the Conservative numbers in a couple of weeks which might not be good for the local elections but as Sean F pointed out most of those voting now do so by post so the votes will be in before things get too serious.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 26,864
    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,332
    Scott_P said:
    Good article.

    "It is a truism among a certain sort of Leaver that Britain is, economically, a bit of a catch – if only we sold ourselves better. If we only showed a bit more confidence we could do so much better for ourselves. Rule Britannia and all that. Even Cabinet ministers – who really should know better – go in for this stuff. Even in private."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,426
    edited April 10
    May 1.09 to go before the year end. I know it's likely, but the Tory coup machine has faultered recently.
    "Now is not the time" and all that may mean she sees out the year...

    ~10-1 for May to survive the year is a good price I think.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 14,838
    edited April 10
    Javid was doing well just a few months ago so I doubt Islamophobia has much to do with it.

    I think it's just that as Remainer May has screwed up Brexit the idea Con would have another Remain leader while Brexit is unresolved is a bit far-fetched.

    I doubt he did himself any favours with his internet clampdown this week either...
  • mattmatt Posts: 2,933
    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Is the line about under 40's and property true or the view from London transposed across the country?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    Pulpstar said:

    May 1.09 to go before the year end. I know it's likely, but the Tory coup machine has faultered recently.
    "Now is not the time" and all that may mean she sees out the year...

    ~10-1 for May to survive the year is a good price I think.

    100-1 would be needed to tempt me.

    She's toast.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,775

    Scott_P said:
    So Steve Baker would jump from a plane, Mark Francois would have a shotgun put in his mouth, are the hardliners looking to create Remainer fantasies or is that just a windfall benefit?
    Steve Baker posts videos of himself jumping out of planes on Youtube.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,034
    Pulpstar said:

    May 1.09 to go before the year end. I know it's likely, but the Tory coup machine has faultered recently.
    "Now is not the time" and all that may mean she sees out the year...

    ~10-1 for May to survive the year is a good price I think.

    I don't think they'll get her out. Not even with a brillo pad, plenty of elbow grease and a packet of Dettol wipes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 3,074
    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 26,864
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    Labour can't even bring themselves to elect a woman. Like the Lib Dems it's got to be male, pale and stale.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,245
    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Yes, it's an excellent piece and a decent reflection of how it is in many parts of supposedly affluent south and south east England and the notion they are becoming part of the London megacity.

    This was the line which resonated with me:

    "Maybe the die was cast 40 years ago, when leading Tories embraced the credo of market fundamentalism and began to forget about civic pride and active government"

    2008 was as existential a crisis for the economic model as the 1970s. The answer then was to repudiate Butskellism in favour of monetarism. The response to 2008 was austerity and even that has been discredited leaving Corbyn's socialism the only "new" thinking in town.

    So many of our issues start from the economic model which is still rooted in the notions of the 80s.We need to change our thinking of how the economy works to benefit society and how government should work to actually provide good government for all.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 14,056
    "There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved."

    That may be true. But a failure to act, swiftly or decisively enough, to stop this sort of problem - even if it is now small - will likely result in it getting worse. The Tories really cannot afford to be thought of as hostile to Muslims and there is a risk that they already are or that they will be, if they don't deal with this sort of issue.

    They would do well to learn from this - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/03/08/what-might-the-tories-learn-from-labour/
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 9,771
    TGOHF said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    Labour can't even bring themselves to elect a woman. Like the Lib Dems it's got to be male, pale and stale.
    Blair was 43, to be fair. Just as well Corbyn holds him up as the light of progress within the party, isn't it :)
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
    In 1734 I used to be able to walk down the main street and have a choice of blacksmiths to get my horses reshod - now there isn't a single one - disgraceful that the government has let this happen..

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 22,749
    edited April 10
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Isn't that essentially the point John Harris is making - that the move to online shopping means that there there is a need for policy changes in areas such as planning and taxation, which aren't currently being given sufficient attention?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 1,616

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
    Government has the power to set taxes appropriately to remove the online advantage.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    edited April 10

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Isn't that essentially the point John Harris is making - that the move to online shopping means that there there is a need for policy changes in areas such as planning and taxation, which aren't currently being given sufficient attention?
    London seems to have led the way with congestion charges and investment in transport.

    Not a single city, town has followed (apart from 1 street in Durham).

    Is that central government's fault ?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 9,771
    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    I am not convinced that Labour would elect a kippah-wearing Jew, regardless of his views on Palestine or the NHS.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,245


    Cities for living in. Essential development.

    Indeed - the notion of regeneration of city centres purely in terms of retail is long dead. Many of the developments coming forward are predicated on the notion of "place" where you live, work and relax in the same physical environment. Flats on top of small start-up units or common working areas with excellent wifi surrounded by smaller retail opportunities are the new models.

    Public services are looking at "hubs" where all public services are co-located and access to one part of the public sector equals access to them all.

    The next thing to go will be the traditional suburb - horrendously outmoded and ill-suited to a world where there will be less requirement to travel or commute but where social interaction will still be needed.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    Dadge said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
    Government has the power to set taxes appropriately to remove the online advantage.
    Given that it hasn't used this power on beer to support pubs I wouldn't hold my breath.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
    In 1734 I used to be able to walk down the main street and have a choice of blacksmiths to get my horses reshod - now there isn't a single one - disgraceful that the government has let this happen..

    Without coaching inns how the hell is one to ride into town? Cities will become primarily residential again, offices, flats, cafe bars and niche businesses. No shops.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,183
    The places worst placed to deal with the decline of the high street are those where retail is the main focus of the place. Since places which have other offices or industries are already doing better, the effect is to widen the gap between the succeeding and the failing parts of the country.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 3,074
    Pulpstar said:

    May 1.09 to go before the year end. I know it's likely, but the Tory coup machine has faultered recently.
    "Now is not the time" and all that may mean she sees out the year...

    ~10-1 for May to survive the year is a good price I think.

    I agree. I laid that for a fair amount at 1.08 last week.

    OK she's going, all agree - I agree - but she is the PM, she has the job and will not be giving it up easily.

    And then there is the real phenomenon of inertia. Inertia makes it hard for things of any great import to happen. In extremis it stops them happening altogether.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,716
    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    If Javid is Muslim, then the previous Labour leader was Jewish.

    (In fact, both men are avowed atheists – how can Javid be classed as a Muslim when he doesn't believe in Allah?)
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,215
    Perhaps business rates have had their day?

    All we need is another £30bn per year source of tax revenue.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607

    The places worst placed to deal with the decline of the high street are those where retail is the main focus of the place. Since places which have other offices or industries are already doing better, the effect is to widen the gap between the succeeding and the failing parts of the country.

    The Americans have the right idea - ghost towns - if there is no reason for the town to exist then it simply doesn't.

    Excellent market efficiency.

  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,716
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    In fairness, I often need a spanner/tool within a few minutes, I don't want to wait a day or more to get it.

    But, I agree with much of the rest of your post.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    stodge said:


    Cities for living in. Essential development.

    Indeed - the notion of regeneration of city centres purely in terms of retail is long dead. Many of the developments coming forward are predicated on the notion of "place" where you live, work and relax in the same physical environment. Flats on top of small start-up units or common working areas with excellent wifi surrounded by smaller retail opportunities are the new models.

    Public services are looking at "hubs" where all public services are co-located and access to one part of the public sector equals access to them all.

    The next thing to go will be the traditional suburb - horrendously outmoded and ill-suited to a world where there will be less requirement to travel or commute but where social interaction will still be needed.

    Yes suburbia is due a major rethink. Certainly the old hubs of suburbia like the big estate pubs are dead or dying. We need to define how we live in a modern world and build to that
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    _Anazina_ said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    In fairness, I often need a spanner/tool within a few minutes, I don't want to wait a day or more to get it.

    But, I agree with much of the rest of your post.
    Amazon do same day delivery in many regions now...

    Ironmongers are a good thing - they don't have to be on the high street - in fact they are probably more competitive if they aren't.

  • isamisam Posts: 27,191
    stodge said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Yes, it's an excellent piece and a decent reflection of how it is in many parts of supposedly affluent south and south east England and the notion they are becoming part of the London megacity.

    This was the line which resonated with me:

    "Maybe the die was cast 40 years ago, when leading Tories embraced the credo of market fundamentalism and began to forget about civic pride and active government"

    2008 was as existential a crisis for the economic model as the 1970s. The answer then was to repudiate Butskellism in favour of monetarism. The response to 2008 was austerity and even that has been discredited leaving Corbyn's socialism the only "new" thinking in town.

    So many of our issues start from the economic model which is still rooted in the notions of the 80s.We need to change our thinking of how the economy works to benefit society and how government should work to actually provide good government for all.

    It’s the question I asked last week

    “If Brexit is overturned, and it was just a scream against life in 2016, what have politicians got to offer the 52%?”

    The towns Harris describes sound like my neck of the woods, the high street is dead.

    I think the answer is Blue Labour
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,775
    RoyalBlue said:

    Perhaps business rates have had their day?

    All we need is another £30bn per year source of tax revenue.

    £100 fine for anyone who mentions Brexit.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 1,616
    Crazy to think it's Wednesday, we're due to leave the EU on Friday, and No Deal Brexit is trading above 7 on Betfair.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,716
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Isn't that essentially the point John Harris is making - that the move to online shopping means that there there is a need for policy changes in areas such as planning and taxation, which aren't currently being given sufficient attention?
    London seems to have led the way with congestion charges and investment in transport.

    Not a single city, town has followed (apart from 1 street in Durham).

    Is that central government's fault ?
    There was a proposal to set up a congestion charge in Manchester – but, with the wisdom of fools, the numpties up there chose to put it to a referendum. Amazing as it might seem, it was voted down.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,426
    edited April 10
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
    In 1734 I used to be able to walk down the main street and have a choice of blacksmiths to get my horses reshod - now there isn't a single one - disgraceful that the government has let this happen..

    And now being a farrier is probably one of the most secure self employed jobs out there. And you will be in plenty of young ladies' phone books social media friends lists :D
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,612
    edited April 10

    TGOHF said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    Labour can't even bring themselves to elect a woman. Like the Lib Dems it's got to be male, pale and stale.
    Blair was 43, to be fair. Just as well Corbyn holds him up as the light of progress within the party, isn't it :)
    Interesting to reflect that of the four subsequent leaders (counting Harman) only one was born after Blair.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 3,074
    TGOHF said:

    Labour can't even bring themselves to elect a woman. Like the Lib Dems it's got to be male, pale and stale.

    Fair cop. However, the next Labour leader is going to be female. Unless it's John McDonnell. Nothing female about him.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    _Anazina_ said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    In fairness, I often need a spanner/tool within a few minutes, I don't want to wait a day or more to get it.

    But, I agree with much of the rest of your post.
    3d printing will obliterate the need for specialized tool shops and the like. You just buy the blueprint. Clothing will be printed too, the next 20 years will see quite the change
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    _Anazina_ said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Isn't that essentially the point John Harris is making - that the move to online shopping means that there there is a need for policy changes in areas such as planning and taxation, which aren't currently being given sufficient attention?
    London seems to have led the way with congestion charges and investment in transport.

    Not a single city, town has followed (apart from 1 street in Durham).

    Is that central government's fault ?
    There was a proposal to set up a congestion charge in Manchester – but, with the wisdom of fools, the numpties up there chose to put it to a referendum. Amazing as it might seem, it was voted down.
    The car manufacturer, road construction, street furniture and driver lobby is very powerful.

    See diesel gate as an example.

    That is one vested interest that could do with being reigned in.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,716
    TGOHF said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    In fairness, I often need a spanner/tool within a few minutes, I don't want to wait a day or more to get it.

    But, I agree with much of the rest of your post.
    Amazon do same day delivery in many regions now...

    Ironmongers are a good thing - they don't have to be on the high street - in fact they are probably more competitive if they aren't.

    I find I can rarely – if ever – find the tools I need for a job on same-day (as yet). That said ScrewFix click and collect is pretty good and it means I can turn over the pick up in an hour or so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,612
    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF said:

    Labour can't even bring themselves to elect a woman. Like the Lib Dems it's got to be male, pale and stale.

    Fair cop. However, the next Labour leader is going to be female. Unless it's John McDonnell. Nothing female about him.
    I dunno. I hear him called by one word that relates to females fairly often...
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,527
    Highly doubt Macron actually wants to force no deal. France's traditional role is bad cop when it comes to the UK, he will just want to squeeze out a few more concessions and humiliate us a bit more as is to be expected when you have your old rival on the ropes. I would be far more worried if it was Merkel pushing for no deal.

    France is very closely tied with the UK and it would suffer more than the average European country in no deal. If I was going to take a stab at ranking how bad it would be for each country

    1. Ireland
    2. The UK
    3. The Netherlands
    4. France
    5. Germany
    6. Spain
    7. Poland maybe
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 46,486

    3d printing will obliterate the need for specialized tool shops and the like. You just buy the blueprint. Clothing will be printed too, the next 20 years will see quite the change

    Where do you get the specialized tools to repair your broken 3D printer?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 5,243
    Scott_P said:

    3d printing will obliterate the need for specialized tool shops and the like. You just buy the blueprint. Clothing will be printed too, the next 20 years will see quite the change

    Where do you get the specialized tools to repair your broken 3D printer?
    Lol
  • timmotimmo Posts: 968
    O/T
    For those who have sat in meetings with Javid they know that he is not up to the job. He has no empathy and to many he has the ego the size of a planet.If it gets as far as the members he has no chance unless he is up against Hammond i suppose.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 151
    edited April 10
    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water the PLP wish would come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
  • isamisam Posts: 27,191
    edited April 10
    TGOHF said:

    The places worst placed to deal with the decline of the high street are those where retail is the main focus of the place. Since places which have other offices or industries are already doing better, the effect is to widen the gap between the succeeding and the failing parts of the country.

    The Americans have the right idea - ghost towns - if there is no reason for the town to exist then it simply doesn't.

    Excellent market efficiency.


    I found this article on the future of American Shopping Malls interesting

    https://www.axios.com/future-of-malls-retail-columbus-5a46a516-a907-4119-bd97-0d2bd1dab5ae.html
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 22,749
    edited April 10
    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water they all hope will come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    No-one has ever suggested that Labour was an antisemitic party before Corbyn became leader. It's a recent development.

    Your comments about the 'right-wing press' are just silly. Let's not forget that the bacon-butty farce was a Labour photo-shoot! Nothing to do with the press, right-wing or otherwise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,612
    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water the PLP wish would come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    Okaaaay...

    So just to be clear - because the right wing press were nasty to Miliband (and Howard, let it not be forgotten) it's OK for the current Labour leader to appear with Holocaust deniers?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,607
    timmo said:

    unless he is up against Hammond i suppose.

    Hammond - good one. Anna Soubry has more chance than him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,612

    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water they all hope will come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    No-one has ever suggested that Labour was an antisemitic party before Corbyn became leader. It's a recent development.

    Your comments about the 'right-wing press' are just silly.
    Actually, that's not true. A poster depicting Howard and Letwin as pigs had to be pulled after allegations of anti-semitism.

    Wasn't there also a campaign portraying Howard as Fagin, or am I confusing that with something else?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,716
    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water the PLP wish would come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    Indeed. Lest we forget.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 5,850
    Scott_P said:

    3d printing will obliterate the need for specialized tool shops and the like. You just buy the blueprint. Clothing will be printed too, the next 20 years will see quite the change

    Where do you get the specialized tools to repair your broken 3D printer?
    From another 3D printer?

    Basically, it's 3D printers all the way down.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 46,486
    _Anazina_ said:

    I find I can rarely – if ever – find the tools I need for a job on same-day (as yet). That said ScrewFix click and collect is pretty good and it means I can turn over the pick up in an hour or so.

    This is probably a naive question, but why do you regularly need new tools for a job? Why do you not have them from the last job?

    A friend of mine recently built a house, and was frustrated by the electrician who turned up every day, looked at the day's work, then drove to the wholesaler to buy parts (wasting an hour each time). It seemed strange that the guy didn't buy dozens of sockets and reels of T&E at the start of the job. In any case, he didn't buy a new screwdriver each day.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 46,486
    Anorak said:

    From another 3D printer?

    Basically, it's 3D printers all the way down.

    :)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 22,749
    edited April 10
    ydoethur said:

    Actually, that's not true. A poster depicting Howard and Letwin as pigs had to be pulled after allegations of anti-semitism.

    Wasn't there also a campaign portraying Howard as Fagin, or am I confusing that with something else?

    You are right that people did make that accusation. Personally I didn't think it was a fair accusation at the time, but my point was more that there has never been a suggestion until recently that Jewish people were being hounded by Labour members or that the leadership was anti-semitic.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,332
    Dadge said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
    Government has the power to set taxes appropriately to remove the online advantage.
    But not the convenience, delivery to your or your instructed recipients door, 24 hour availability, massive range available instantly and competitive price (if they don't tax it out of existence).

    Shopping and the High Street has changed. Maintenance by taxation isn't likely to succeed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,612

    ydoethur said:

    Actually, that's not true. A poster depicting Howard and Letwin as pigs had to be pulled after allegations of anti-semitism.

    Wasn't there also a campaign portraying Howard as Fagin, or am I confusing that with something else?

    You are right that people did make that accusation. Personally I didn't think it was a fair accusation at the time, but my point was more that there has never been a suggestion until recently that Jewish people were being hounded by Labour members or that the leadership was anti-semitic.
    OK, yes, I will agree with that.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 401

    RoyalBlue said:

    Perhaps business rates have had their day?

    All we need is another £30bn per year source of tax revenue.

    £100 fine for anyone who mentions Brexit.
    That could literally be the most popular tax in history!
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,716
    Scott_P said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    I find I can rarely – if ever – find the tools I need for a job on same-day (as yet). That said ScrewFix click and collect is pretty good and it means I can turn over the pick up in an hour or so.

    This is probably a naive question, but why do you regularly need new tools for a job? Why do you not have them from the last job?

    A friend of mine recently built a house, and was frustrated by the electrician who turned up every day, looked at the day's work, then drove to the wholesaler to buy parts (wasting an hour each time). It seemed strange that the guy didn't buy dozens of sockets and reels of T&E at the start of the job. In any case, he didn't buy a new screwdriver each day.
    Well, I'm a hobbyist DIY man not a professional, so I don't have the time, money or inclination to buy every possible combination of tool in the hope that one day I might need it. I have lots of tools that I have collected over the years, and often I can get through a job without a new one, but sometimes not.

    Yet your point about tradesmen stands – it's baffling. See also materials. Electricians particularly seem to often lack the right cable/bulb/part etc and you think, 'are these really that rare?' Answer is, 'no', It's just bad prep on their part.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 151
    edited April 10
    ydoethur said:

    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water the PLP wish would come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    Okaaaay...

    So just to be clear - because the right wing press were nasty to Miliband (and Howard, let it not be forgotten) it's OK for the current Labour leader to appear with Holocaust deniers?
    I'm not saying antisemitism is okay in Labour or on the right. I'm saying that to many lefties within Labour it seems like an issue used to attack the left and ignored on the right, and therefore a hypocritical partisan issue, not one that should be dealt with in the manner many would agree it should. The attacks from the right wing on George Soros are rarely called out as antisemitic, but that is what they are.

    On Right Wing antisemitism towards Ed Miliband specifically:

    https://forward.com/opinion/world/306666/the-strangeness-of-ed-miliband/

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/06/sun-front-page-antisemitic-save-our-bacon-ed-miliband
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 1,616
    philiph said:

    Dadge said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Whilst public transport is certainly something that needs active policy to manage, I'm not sure the government should be concerned with whether consumer shopping is online or not..

    Even if it results in the death of the High Street?
    You can't get a haircut, a pint of beer in the sun or a cooked meal on the internet.

    Pedestrianise the high street, convert upper stories into flats and make them places for people to gather and socialise. If you want to buy a spanner - go online.
    Cities for living in. Essential development.
    Government has the power to set taxes appropriately to remove the online advantage.
    But not the convenience, delivery to your or your instructed recipients door, 24 hour availability, massive range available instantly and competitive price (if they don't tax it out of existence).

    Shopping and the High Street has changed. Maintenance by taxation isn't likely to succeed.
    It's not only a matter of maintaining a balance between shops and delivery, it's also about revenues. If the govt doesn't rebalance taxation in line with business trends, it loses out on billions.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,716
    timmo said:

    O/T
    For those who have sat in meetings with Javid they know that he is not up to the job. He has no empathy and to many he has the ego the size of a planet.If it gets as far as the members he has no chance unless he is up against Hammond i suppose.

    Anyway the job is impossible, the Tories are completely unleadable. Even if Javid had the leadership skills of Moses he could not find a Brexit policy agreeable to both Mark Francois and Dominic Grieve.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,526

    Scott_P said:
    So Steve Baker would jump from a plane, Mark Francois would have a shotgun put in his mouth, are the hardliners looking to create Remainer fantasies or is that just a windfall benefit?
    Steve Baker posts videos of himself jumping out of planes on Youtube.

    From this I take it he is super keen to support May's deal? Perhaps he has seen the light? :p
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 151
    edited April 10
    Looking at the betting / polling on the Tory leaders, is this gonna be like the GOP 2012 race, where everyone got there 5 minutes on top of polling, but in the end to favourite wins? I understand the way GOP primaries work is VERY different from the way the CON leadership works, but can CON MPs really justify not picking Johnson, for instance, to get to the final 2 if 30-40% of the membership want him as leader?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 4,822
    isam said:

    stodge said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Yes, it's an excellent piece and a decent reflection of how it is in many parts of supposedly affluent south and south east England and the notion they are becoming part of the London megacity.

    This was the line which resonated with me:

    "Maybe the die was cast 40 years ago, when leading Tories embraced the credo of market fundamentalism and began to forget about civic pride and active government"

    2008 was as existential a crisis for the economic model as the 1970s. The answer then was to repudiate Butskellism in favour of monetarism. The response to 2008 was austerity and even that has been discredited leaving Corbyn's socialism the only "new" thinking in town.

    So many of our issues start from the economic model which is still rooted in the notions of the 80s.We need to change our thinking of how the economy works to benefit society and how government should work to actually provide good government for all.

    It’s the question I asked last week

    “If Brexit is overturned, and it was just a scream against life in 2016, what have politicians got to offer the 52%?”

    The towns Harris describes sound like my neck of the woods, the high street is dead.

    I think the answer is Blue Labour
    I don't know what your town is like, but mine has a council (was Lib Dem, Labour, now Tory, so this is very much cross party), dominated by people aged 60 and over, whose sole purpose appears to be to maintain everything as it was in their youth.
    Sainsburys? KFC? NO!
    They will kill the traditional small shops.
    Pedestrianisation? NO! People want to park right outside the shop. And clog up traffic, pollute the streets, etc.
    Festivals? NO! Too noisy, bring undesirable elements in.
    Meanwhile, everything shuts and people go elsewhere. Their answer? More parking spaces...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 3,074
    edited April 10
    148grss said:

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water the PLP wish would come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.

    I think there IS an issue in Labour but it is also true that it is exaggerated and cynically exploited by political opponents.

    Amongst the 500,000 members there are a tiny fraction (but because of the large membership it is not an insignificant absolute number) who are antisemitic, either through a belief in softhead "Jewish capitalists run the World" conspiracy theories, and/or through an over-identification with, and an immersion over the years in, the Palestine cause.

    It needs stamping out, it really does. However, I do not believe should a Corbyn led Labour government come to power that there is the remotest prospect of antisemitism influencing any policy that they might consider or pursue, or of the lives of Jewish people in the UK being adversely impacted in any way.

    If I did, I would not vote for them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,612
    edited April 10
    148grss said:

    I'm not saying antisemitism is okay in Labour or on the right. I'm saying that to many lefties within Labour it seems like an issue used to attack the left and ignored on the right, and therefore a hypocritical partisan issue, not one that should be dealt with in the manner many would agree it should. The attacks from the right wing on George Soros are rarely called out as antisemitic, but that is what they are.

    Again, I do not agree. They are frequently called out as anti-Semitic and particularly Orban's attitude (which makes Netanyahu's servile behaviour all the more nauseating).

    The problem is we have a major party led by a man who has repeatedly and wilfully made common cause with extreme racists. Now, it's easy to shoot the messenger, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the press are not having to invent anything. It's his own backbenchers who are accusing him (and Formby, who has a similarly problematic record) of anti-Semitic behaviour.

    Now is he personally anti-Semitic? Probably not. But in a sense that's actually less excusable because he should not then be going with their views. Arguably, the worst thing it it shows he is thick as five posts, but in itself that should be good reason to get rid of him.

    The New York Times (hardly 'right wing') has done a series of articles on this: this is typical:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semite.html?module=inline
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,778
    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Is the line about under 40's and property true or the view from London transposed across the country?
    It is ceasing to be the case. Rates of home ownership are starting to rise again, among people aged over 25. 750,000 people became first time buyers in the past two years.

    Housing became unaffordable for loads of people, as property prices rose by 320% from 1996 to 2007. Outside London, and a few hotspots, they've barely moved since then.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,736
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Javid tripped the same lightweight alarm that Burnham did.

    That said, Burnham would still be a far better leader than the incumbent, so...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 18,157
    edited April 10
    148grss said:

    ydoethur said:

    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water the PLP wish would come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    Okaaaay...

    So just to be clear - because the right wing press were nasty to Miliband (and Howard, let it not be forgotten) it's OK for the current Labour leader to appear with Holocaust deniers?
    I'm not saying antisemitism is okay in Labour or on the right. I'm saying that to many lefties within Labour it seems like an issue used to attack the left and ignored on the right, and therefore a hypocritical partisan issue, not one that should be dealt with in the manner many would agree it should. The attacks from the right wing on George Soros are rarely called out as antisemitic, but that is what they are.

    On Right Wing antisemitism towards Ed Miliband specifically:

    https://forward.com/opinion/world/306666/the-strangeness-of-ed-miliband/

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/06/sun-front-page-antisemitic-save-our-bacon-ed-miliband
    Yeah agree it should be called out wherever it appears. And often is.

    https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-criticised-for-anti-semitic-howard-poster-488998.html

    Edit I see @ydoethur got there before me.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 22,749
    kinabalu said:

    .... However, I do not believe should a Corbyn led Labour government come to power that there is the remotest prospect of antisemitism influencing any policy that they might consider or pursue, or of the lives of Jewish people in the UK being adversely impacted in any way....

    That's not what many Jewish people think. They are seriously worried.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,716

    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water they all hope will come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    No-one has ever suggested that Labour was an antisemitic party before Corbyn became leader. It's a recent development.

    Your comments about the 'right-wing press' are just silly. Let's not forget that the bacon-butty farce was a Labour photo-shoot! Nothing to do with the press, right-wing or otherwise.
    That is stretching a point, to put it mildly. The bacon mis-munch was a freeze-frame deliberately chosen by the press to make EM look awkward. I challenge you to be videoed or shot eating and not look ugly or inelegant in a single still.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 4,822
    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Is the line about under 40's and property true or the view from London transposed across the country?
    It is ceasing to be the case. Rates of home ownership are starting to rise again, among people aged over 25. 750,000 people became first time buyers in the past two years.

    Housing became unaffordable for loads of people, as property prices rose by 320% from 1996 to 2007. Outside London, and a few hotspots, they've barely moved since then.
    Or, in the case of the northeast fallen by 7.1% between 2007 and 2017. Source ONS.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,526
    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another excellent state of the nation John Harris article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/theresa-may-berks-bucks-thames-valley-tory-austerity

    "With Brexit eating the Tories up, any notion of how to address such modern issues as the state of local public services, the migration of consumer spending online or our awful public transport now seems to be beyond their collective grasp; by way of ideas, all they have to cling on to is the old ideal of the property-owning democracy, which has long since shut out people under 40, and thus proved to be not very democratic at all."

    Is the line about under 40's and property true or the view from London transposed across the country?
    It is ceasing to be the case. Rates of home ownership are starting to rise again, among people aged over 25. 750,000 people became first time buyers in the past two years.

    Housing became unaffordable for loads of people, as property prices rose by 320% from 1996 to 2007. Outside London, and a few hotspots, they've barely moved since then.
    Or, in the case of the northeast fallen by 7.1% between 2007 and 2017. Source ONS.
    A chart might be more useful than looking relative to an arbitrary date. Sean did say it was starting to rise again, implying a more recent turnaround.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 22,749
    _Anazina_ said:

    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The LAB issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.

    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water they all hope will come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    No-one has ever suggested that Labour was an antisemitic party before Corbyn became leader. It's a recent development.

    Your comments about the 'right-wing press' are just silly. Let's not forget that the bacon-butty farce was a Labour photo-shoot! Nothing to do with the press, right-wing or otherwise.
    That is stretching a point, to put it mildly. The bacon mis-munch was a freeze-frame deliberately chosen by the press to make EM look awkward. I challenge you to be videoed or shot eating and not look ugly or inelegant in a single still.
    Sure. What on earth do you expect the press to do? Given a free hit like that against any politician, they'd take it. But, as I said, the hilarious thing is that Labour deliberately organised it - it wasn't some photographer sneaking a shot behind the scenes and catching EdM unawares. The press had been asked in to film Ed and his bacon butty.
  • isamisam Posts: 27,191
    TOPPING said:

    148grss said:

    ydoethur said:

    148grss said:

    kinabalu said:

    There is a difference. The
    issue goes right to the heart of the party’s leadership while nobody is saying that Theresa May is in anyway sympathetic or involved.


    OTOH, if the Tory membership are reluctant to have a leader who is Muslim, whereas the Labour membership would be happy with a Jewish one provided that he or she was sufficiently left wing and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, that would also be a difference.

    (The 'if' is not currently provable, I realize that.)

    The last Labour leader was Jewish (culturally, anyway), as is the prince beyond the water the PLP wish would come back.

    Again, one of the wild issues with the "Labour are super antisemitic" issue is they did have a Jewish leader in Ed Miliband, and it was the right wing press who were antisemitic towards him and his family, and nobody on the right batted an eye. His father was othered, he was othered and literally turned into a sneaky, opportunist who'd stab his own brother in the back for power who literally couldn't eat pork like a normal person.
    Okaaaay...

    So just to be clear - because the right wing press were nasty to Miliband (and Howard, let it not be forgotten) it's OK for the current Labour leader to appear with Holocaust deniers?
    I'm not saying antisemitism is okay in Labour or on the right. I'm saying that to many lefties within Labour it seems like an issue used to attack the left and ignored on the right, and therefore a hypocritical partisan issue, not one that should be dealt with in the manner many would agree it should. The attacks from the right wing on George Soros are rarely called out as antisemitic, but that is what they are.

    On Right Wing antisemitism towards Ed Miliband specifically:

    https://forward.com/opinion/world/306666/the-strangeness-of-ed-miliband/

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/06/sun-front-page-antisemitic-save-our-bacon-ed-miliband
    Yeah agree it should be called out wherever it appears. And often is.

    https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-criticised-for-anti-semitic-howard-poster-488998.html

    Edit I see @ydoethur got there before me.
    #newprofilepic?



    Available for the coinage of your choice at Hornchurch Airfield Tesco
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177
    TGOHF said:

    timmo said:

    unless he is up against Hammond i suppose.

    Hammond - good one. Anna Soubry has more chance than him.
    His "we have no red lines in our discussions with Labour" comment probably reduced his number of supporters in the membership to single fgures....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,426
    The bacon butty jibe against Ed Miliband was not antisemitic.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 18,157
    isam said:


    #newprofilepic?



    Available for the coinage of your choice at Hornchurch Airfield Tesco

    That's my favourite tie.

    Talking about coinage I have vowed not to use cash to pay for almost anything again especially anything that isn't a round figure (ie £5, £10, etc). For example if I buy a salmon sushi set at ITSU for £4.09 it effectively costs me £4.20 as I am very unlikely to use the 10p anywhere and will never use the 1p.

    Just thought I'd mention it.
This discussion has been closed.