Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A ridiculous spectacle, looking in detail at Julian Assange’s

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited April 14 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A ridiculous spectacle, looking in detail at Julian Assange’s arrest.

Assange’s arrest – his white beard, wink and ponytail giving him a very woke mixture of metrosexual man, cheeky rebel and Russian dissident  – is the latest scene in a life made for film. Now, following a spell at Her Majesty’s pleasure (her prisons, in NI anyway, used to faeces-smearing prisoners unlike the bemused Ecuadorians bulk-buying extra-strong Cilit Bang) he faces the possibility of extradition to Sweden or the US to face charges of sexual assault and conspiracy to hack into US government computers.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,180
    edited April 14
    An excellent post, Ms Free. The MPs should know better.

    My own view: Assange is a self-serving nasty fool, a publicity-seeker who has managed to con a whole load of people, and place others (including a member of my family) in trouble, or even danger.

    When talking about the law, we need to leave all those admirable qualities to one side. Aside from jumping bail (and how much I LOL at his supporters who lost money on his bail), then it would not surprise me if there was not enough evidence or cause for an extradition to go through. In which case the government could be faced with other difficult problems and decisions.

    Edit: and first. Sorry, Ms Free,
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 12,978
    Ooh, am I first?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,631
    Assange leaked from the Ecuadorian Embassy .....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 12,978

    An excellent post, Ms Free. The MPs should know better.

    My own view: Assange is a self-serving nasty fool, a publicity-seeker who has managed to con a whole load of people, and place others (including a member of my family) in trouble, or even danger.

    When talking about the law, we need to leave all those admirable qualities to one side. Aside from jumping bail (and how much I LOL at his supporters who lost money on his bail), then it would not surprise me if there was not enough evidence or cause for an extradition to go through. In which case the government could be faced with other difficult problems and decisions.

    Edit: and first. Sorry, Ms Free,

    Never mind. I can be the first to congratulate you!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,180
    Cyclefree said:

    An excellent post, Ms Free. The MPs should know better.

    My own view: Assange is a self-serving nasty fool, a publicity-seeker who has managed to con a whole load of people, and place others (including a member of my family) in trouble, or even danger.

    When talking about the law, we need to leave all those admirable qualities to one side. Aside from jumping bail (and how much I LOL at his supporters who lost money on his bail), then it would not surprise me if there was not enough evidence or cause for an extradition to go through. In which case the government could be faced with other difficult problems and decisions.

    Edit: and first. Sorry, Ms Free,

    Never mind. I can be the first to congratulate you!
    Believe me, after the last few days I'm in need of a little victory. :(
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 10,370
    Excellent piece, Cyclefree. For me Assange and co are at best irresponsible and at worst treasonous.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 20,668
    Thanks for the article Cyclefree. Some good points made. I think the law should be left to get on with it and the pols should shut up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 20,668
    Buttigieg formally running launch today!
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352
    edited April 14
    isam said:

    ... and as usual, the bored, flaccid, upper middle class, desperate to have something to make them feel alive and angry about, back him up. So embarrassing

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,908
    As usual Matt got it spot on. Plaque outside the Ecudorian embassy. “Julian Assange lived here for what felt like 700 years “.

    He’s a nasty piece of work and those making excuses for him should be ashamed of themselves.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,908
    edited April 14
    Sorry to go OT quite so soon but my wife had a very detailed survey from Ipsos Mori this morning. Nearly all about Scottish independence with Brexit quite peripheral. I wondered if Nicola was testing the waters before her next big announcement.
  • DavidL said:

    Sorry to go OT quite so soon but my wife had a very detailed survey from Ipsos Mori this morning. Nearly all about Scottish independence with Brexit quite peripheral. I wondered if Nicola was testing the waters before her next big announcement.

    The SNP generally use Panelbase.

    Ipsos MORI poll quarterly for STV.

    During the Indyref Better Together used Ipsos MORI.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,809
    edited April 14
    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352
    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,338



    Ipsos MORI poll quarterly for STV.

    Not AV?

    :lol:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 36,408
    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    Seems like a cheap way to close down debate on the issue. Just label everyone a nazi and you are done.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,338
    JackW said:

    Assange leaked from the Ecuadorian Embassy .....

    You mean he was shown the Ecua-Door? :lol:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 21,497
    Excellent piece as usual, Ms Cyclefree. Watching those who would usually jump to the defence of sexual assault victims tie themselves up in knots about Assange is most amusing - although not as amusing as the looks on the faces of the luvvies who collectively lost £200,000 in bail money!

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 74,126
    edited April 14
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    Seems like a cheap way to close down debate on the issue. Just label everyone a nazi and you are done.
    Cannot imagine why some people think Leavers are similar to Nazis.



    You lie with dogs, don't be surprised you catch fleas.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,809
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    It is easy for white people to be oblivious to racism, particularly when there is some gain involved.

    Maybe Lammy is just more tuned into it than you.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    On topic, you can dislike Julian Assange and all he stands for and still wonder whether the USA’s extradition attempts have pure motives.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,116
    isam said:
    Wow. In fairness to Lammy, Rees-Mogg had hitherto demonstrated an unfortunate knack of associating with pro-Apartheid and fascist-admiring elements, so his third such blooper might be stretching the elasticity of forgiveness a bit much.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,977
    DavidL said:

    Sorry to go OT quite so soon but my wife had a very detailed survey from Ipsos Mori this morning. Nearly all about Scottish independence with Brexit quite peripheral. I wondered if Nicola was testing the waters before her next big announcement.

    Short shrift in L Towers presumably? Always wise to ask the lassies first though.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 7,897

    On topic, you can dislike Julian Assange and all he stands for and still wonder whether the USA’s extradition attempts have pure motives.

    I think you've nailed it.

    Too many are playing the man not the ball.

    American war crimes shouldn't be conflated with Assange's personal alleged criminal behaviour.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352
    edited April 14

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    It is easy for white people to be oblivious to racism, particularly when there is some gain involved.

    Maybe Lammy is just more tuned into it than you.

    He's on the lookout for it more definitely.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,180
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Or perhaps his life experiences have caused him to see racism in everything? If you are subjected to racism a lot from when you are a kid, you are bound to see it as an issue later on.

    I used to quite like Lammy: he speaks very well on the societal problems facing young black men, and cares deeply about the subject. Racism is a significant part of a very complex jigsaw that does need resolving. He cares about it: and good on him for that. If he does do it to 'keep himself in a job' (and I fear that says more about you than him), then it would be because it matters to his constituents.

    However, that feeling has somewhat diminished as he has frequently put his foot in his mouth on a variety of topics. He shows a distinct inflexibility of thinking that I would not expect from a barrister.

    I've come to the conclusion that he's a well-educated fool: and in that he's hardly unique in parliament.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,977
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    It is easy for white people to be oblivious to racism, particularly when there is some gain involved.

    Maybe Lammy is just more tuned into it than you.

    Unfair.
    I'm sure Sam is hyper attuned to racism shown towards the white (or gammon tinted) British male.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,809

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Or UKIP dismissing threats of rape of a female MP as acceptable satire:



    Be careful isam. These are not good people.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,353

    JackW said:

    Assange leaked from the Ecuadorian Embassy .....

    You mean he was shown the Ecua-Door? :lol:
    Quito while you're ahead......
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 10,370

    JackW said:

    Assange leaked from the Ecuadorian Embassy .....

    You mean he was shown the Ecua-Door? :lol:
    Quito while you're ahead......
    I think you're Caracas.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Or perhaps his life experiences have caused him to see racism in everything? If you are subjected to racism a lot from when you are a kid, you are bound to see it as an issue later on.

    I used to quite like Lammy: he speaks very well on the societal problems facing young black men, and cares deeply about the subject. Racism is a significant part of a very complex jigsaw that does need resolving. He cares about it: and good on him for that. If he does do it to 'keep himself in a job' (and I fear that says more about you than him), then it would be because it matters to his constituents.

    However, that feeling has somewhat diminished as he has frequently put his foot in his mouth on a variety of topics. He shows a distinct inflexibility of thinking that I would not expect from a barrister.

    I've come to the conclusion that he's a well-educated fool: and in that he's hardly unique in parliament.
    He is actually the only MP I have ever spoken to, I had a pint with him once and he seemed a nice enough bloke.

    But he has a long record of gaffes that show his prejudice, that isnt my opinion but fact. He hasn't had a bad life, University educated, Harvard, a lawyer etc I dont feel that i have to feel sorry for him in any way or guilty that I am white and he is black.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 3,654
    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I think Lammy is overstating his case, but we had better keep an eye on the direction things are going to make sure reality doesn't catch up with him. I think it is questionable that Rees-Mogg is a suitable candidate for a mainstream party for example.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,809

    JackW said:

    Assange leaked from the Ecuadorian Embassy .....

    You mean he was shown the Ecua-Door? :lol:
    Quito while you're ahead......
    The Inca isn't dry on that one!
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    It is easy for white people to be oblivious to racism, particularly when there is some gain involved.

    Maybe Lammy is just more tuned into it than you.

    Unfair.
    I'm sure Sam is hyper attuned to racism shown towards the white (or gammon tinted) British male.
    I can laugh it off. Bitter losers who were bullied at school being lairy on social media
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 6,587
    edited April 14
    Foxy said:

    JackW said:

    Assange leaked from the Ecuadorian Embassy .....

    You mean he was shown the Ecua-Door? :lol:
    Quito while you're ahead......
    The Inca isn't dry on that one!
    Knock it off you lot. You Olmec terrible puns
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 21,363
    DavidL said:

    Sorry to go OT quite so soon but my wife had a very detailed survey from Ipsos Mori this morning. Nearly all about Scottish independence with Brexit quite peripheral. I wondered if Nicola was testing the waters before her next big announcement.

    One can but hope David
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,394
    In a field of very stiff competition, I'm calling that your finest ever thread header Cyclefree, for all the grimness of the subject matter. I agree with every single word and I only wish I had expressed it as eloquently myself below the line.

    'Would it be too much to hope that those aiming for high office be aware of these pretty basic requirements?'

    Sadly the answer appears to be 'yes.' How far we have fallen.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 21,363
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    It is easy for white people to be oblivious to racism, particularly when there is some gain involved.

    Maybe Lammy is just more tuned into it than you.

    He is a total prat however
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,809
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    It is not crazy. Just last week Jack Renshaw was sentenced, as part of a radical right wing terrorism in this country.

    Sure, only a few Leavers are twisted enough to follow that path, but we should not be their apologists, should we isam?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,394

    On topic, you can dislike Julian Assange and all he stands for and still wonder whether the USA’s extradition attempts have pure motives.

    I think you've nailed it.

    Too many are playing the man not the ball.

    American war crimes shouldn't be conflated with Assange's personal alleged criminal behaviour.
    I think it's also fair to say you can think Assange deserves everything he's about to get and still think our extradition arrangements with the US are an utter disgrace that need changing as a matter of the highest priority.

    But Assange is pretty well without redeeming features. Let's not forget that originally the US didn't want him. I can't help but wonder whether what's changed is his ongoing interference in the US at the apparent behes of Putin. Let's equally not forget he was one factor, however minor, in the victory of Trump, which has been even worse than I feared it would.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 1,760
    Christ, this thread.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,394

    Cyclefree said:

    An excellent post, Ms Free. The MPs should know better.

    My own view: Assange is a self-serving nasty fool, a publicity-seeker who has managed to con a whole load of people, and place others (including a member of my family) in trouble, or even danger.

    When talking about the law, we need to leave all those admirable qualities to one side. Aside from jumping bail (and how much I LOL at his supporters who lost money on his bail), then it would not surprise me if there was not enough evidence or cause for an extradition to go through. In which case the government could be faced with other difficult problems and decisions.

    Edit: and first. Sorry, Ms Free,

    Never mind. I can be the first to congratulate you!
    Believe me, after the last few days I'm in need of a little victory. :(
    Sorry to hear that things are rough for you JJ. Hope they get better soon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,591
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Dr. Foxy, Lammy is so tuned into racism he can see it when no-one else can. Who can forget his powers of perception revealing unto us pasty mortals the racism of white pope smoke? Or the racism of helping people in Africa?

    Damned white people and their charitable endeavours!

    And his criticism, in part, of the Grenfell Tower inquiry judge on the basis of the judge's whiteness was rancid.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
    It's not worth going round in circles, I completely disagree with you, it is allowed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 17,394

    Christ, this thread.

    Surely that's next week?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,809
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    It is easy for white people to be oblivious to racism, particularly when there is some gain involved.

    Maybe Lammy is just more tuned into it than you.

    He is a total prat however
    Yes, he can be a little polemical, and often wrong, but I wouldn't say a total prat. More the curates egg, and good in parts.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,591
    Mr. Jessop, hope things get better soon :)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 7,809
    edited April 14

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Dr. Foxy, Lammy is so tuned into racism he can see it when no-one else can. Who can forget his powers of perception revealing unto us pasty mortals the racism of white pope smoke? Or the racism of helping people in Africa?

    Damned white people and their charitable endeavours!

    And his criticism, in part, of the Grenfell Tower inquiry judge on the basis of the judge's whiteness was rancid.

    He can certainly see it in places where you turn a blind eye. We live in a country and society that has a long history of racosm and misogyny. Fortunately most of the most egregious bits are in the past, but it does still shape our society and thinking in many ways.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 26,830
    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I suspect that Lammy is as much of a fool as the people he criticises.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
    It's not worth going round in circles, I completely disagree with you, it is allowed.
    I’m very used to people disagreeing with me. I was simply explaining why I think what I think since you found it baffling.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,591
    Dr. Foxy, he criticised the suitability of a man for a job based on the colour of his skin. That might make sense if the job were playing the role of Othello, but it wasn't.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 26,830
    Foxy said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Dr. Foxy, Lammy is so tuned into racism he can see it when no-one else can. Who can forget his powers of perception revealing unto us pasty mortals the racism of white pope smoke? Or the racism of helping people in Africa?

    Damned white people and their charitable endeavours!

    And his criticism, in part, of the Grenfell Tower inquiry judge on the basis of the judge's whiteness was rancid.

    He can certainly see it in places where you turn a blind eye. We live in a country and society that has a long history of racosm and misogyny. Fortunately most of the most egregious bits are in the past, but it does still shape our society and thinking in many ways.
    Perhaps he just dislikes white people
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    It is not crazy. Just last week Jack Renshaw was sentenced, as part of a radical right wing terrorism in this country.

    Sure, only a few Leavers are twisted enough to follow that path, but we should not be their apologists, should we isam?
    I am not apologising for anyone who has done such things.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job


    .
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
    It's not worth going round in circles, I completely disagree with you, it is allowed.
    I’m very used to people disagreeing with me. I was simply explaining why I think what I think since you found it baffling.
    I just cant imagine thinking it would be ok for Farage to say he wanted to chop a woman up and put her in his freezer while criticising Osborne for making a military/political analogy. Each to their own
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,283
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I suspect that Lammy is as much of a fool as the people he criticises.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5989051/labour-mp-david-lammy-mocked-for-claiming-he-had-seen-no-police-on-streets-since-london-violence-as-cop-stood-behind-him/
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,341
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Equally, this morning you were determined not to see anything worrying about a hard right politician talking about picking up his rifle at a time when one of his political opponents had been murdered.

    The kindest interpretation of the ERG is that they are tone deaf about what they say and do. Since some of them have brains, it’s hard to be that kind.
    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?
    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    Analogy?

    Farage in 2016:
    ""I think it's legitimate to say that if people feel they have lost control completely, and we have lost control of our borders completely as members of the EU, and if people feel that voting doesn't change anything then violence is the next step."
    "I find it difficult to contemplate it happening here, but nothing's impossible."
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,125
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:



    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?

    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
    It's not worth going round in circles, I completely disagree with you, it is allowed.
    I’m very used to people disagreeing with me. I was simply explaining why I think what I think since you found it baffling.
    I just cant imagine thinking it would be ok for Farage to say he wanted to chop a woman up and put her in his freezer while criticising Osborne for making a military/political analogy. Each to their own
    Context is everything. If you shout “fire” in a crowded theatre you may cause deaths. Shout the same thing at a bonfire at home and you risk nothing.

    Nigel Farage is shouting fire in a crowded theatre.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,180
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Or perhaps his life experiences have caused him to see racism in everything? If you are subjected to racism a lot from when you are a kid, you are bound to see it as an issue later on.

    I used to quite like Lammy: he speaks very well on the societal problems facing young black men, and cares deeply about the subject. Racism is a significant part of a very complex jigsaw that does need resolving. He cares about it: and good on him for that. If he does do it to 'keep himself in a job' (and I fear that says more about you than him), then it would be because it matters to his constituents.

    However, that feeling has somewhat diminished as he has frequently put his foot in his mouth on a variety of topics. He shows a distinct inflexibility of thinking that I would not expect from a barrister.

    I've come to the conclusion that he's a well-educated fool: and in that he's hardly unique in parliament.
    He is actually the only MP I have ever spoken to, I had a pint with him once and he seemed a nice enough bloke.

    But he has a long record of gaffes that show his prejudice, that isnt my opinion but fact. He hasn't had a bad life, University educated, Harvard, a lawyer etc I dont feel that i have to feel sorry for him in any way or guilty that I am white and he is black.
    I don't expect you to feel sorry for him, or feel guilty in any way.

    However I do think it's important to try to understand why he comes out with the stuff he does: and then perhaps realise where he's coming from, even if he's often mistaken.

    On the same way people should try to understand where other sections of society are coming from, even if they are also often wrong.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,283
    Excellent header, as usual Cyclefree...and lest those following the Putin line that Assange is a 'journalist' forget that unlike responsible outlets - like the Guardian, which redacted names in reporting Wikileaks - Assange did not:


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/30/us-military-wikileaks-afghanistan-war-logs
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,977
    Has George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer taken over from endless panegyrics to Enoch Powell? Can't say it's an improvement.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:



    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?

    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
    It's not worth going round in circles, I completely disagree with you, it is allowed.
    I’m very used to people disagreeing with me. I was simply explaining why I think what I think since you found it baffling.
    I just cant imagine thinking it would be ok for Farage to say he wanted to chop a woman up and put her in his freezer while criticising Osborne for making a military/political analogy. Each to their own
    Context is everything. If you shout “fire” in a crowded theatre you may cause deaths. Shout the same thing at a bonfire at home and you risk nothing.

    Nigel Farage is shouting fire in a crowded theatre.
    I disagree
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    Has George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer taken over from endless panegyrics to Enoch Powell? Can't say it's an improvement.

    If Enoch had said he'd like to chop up Edward Heath and put him in a freezer I'd have thought it were worthy of criticism
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:



    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?

    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
    It's not worth going round in circles, I completely disagree with you, it is allowed.
    I’m very used to people disagreeing with me. I was simply explaining why I think what I think since you found it baffling.
    I just cant imagine thinking it would be ok for Farage to say he wanted to chop a woman up and put her in his freezer while criticising Osborne for making a military/political analogy. Each to their own
    Context is everything. If you shout “fire” in a crowded theatre you may cause deaths. Shout the same thing at a bonfire at home and you risk nothing.

    Nigel Farage is shouting fire in a crowded theatre.
    I disagree
    You disagree with Richard Tyndall then, who has predicted violence from Brexiteers?
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:
    It very much depends on how much anti-immigrant rhethoric you can stand. If you are white British then it is easy to shrug it off, revel in it or merely benefit from it without speaking against it.

    I suspect Lammy experiences it differently. Our Empire was built on force that enslaved his ancestors White supremacists are not some lairy pub talk to him, they are much more real. Are you surprised?
    I'm not particularly surprised because he sees racism in everything to keep himself in a job
    Or perhaps his life experiences have caused him to see racism in everything? If you are subjected to racism a lot from when you are a kid, you are bound to see it as an issue later on.

    I used to quite like Lammy: he speaks very well on the societal problems facing young black men, and cares deeply about the subject. Racism is a significant part of a very complex jigsaw that does need resolving. He cares about it: and good on him for that. If he does do it to 'keep himself in a job' (and I fear that says more about you than him), then it would be because it matters to his constituents.

    However, that feeling has somewhat diminished as he has frequently put his foot in his mouth on a variety of topics. He shows a distinct inflexibility of thinking that I would not expect from a barrister.

    I've come to the conclusion that he's a well-educated fool: and in that he's hardly unique in parliament.
    He is actually the only MP I have ever spoken to, I had a pint with him once and he seemed a nice enough bloke.

    But he has a long record of gaffes that show his prejudice, that isnt my opinion but fact. He hasn't had a bad life, University educated, Harvard, a lawyer etc I dont feel that i have to feel sorry for him in any way or guilty that I am white and he is black.
    I don't expect you to feel sorry for him, or feel guilty in any way.

    However I do think it's important to try to understand why he comes out with the stuff he does: and then perhaps realise where he's coming from, even if he's often mistaken.

    On the same way people should try to understand where other sections of society are coming from, even if they are also often wrong.
    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352
    edited April 14

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:



    Farage isnt hard right, and there is nothing wrong, or new,, in using war time analogies to describe political battles.

    Was his "rifle" quote better or worse than Osborne saying he'd like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer?

    Far worse. There is no track record of liberal Conservatives dismembering politicians (and note George Osborne spoke in private and apologised for his words). There is a long term and growing problem of the anti-immigrant anti-EU right spawning violent supporters. Using their language encourages them and validates their worldview.
    That is borderline crazy. I cant quite believe you are saying it.
    What do you regard as crazy? That politicians need to consider their audience when choosing their words? Seems a statement of the obvious to me.
    That Farage making the analogy of a soldier going to war to illustrate taking on political opponents is worse than George Osborne saying he would like to chop Theresa May up and put her in his freezer.
    One is likely to lead to real violence. One is not. The one that is likely to lead to real violence is worse.
    It's not worth going round in circles, I completely disagree with you, it is allowed.
    I’m very used to people disagreeing with me. I was simply explaining why I think what I think since you found it baffling.
    I just cant imagine thinking it would be ok for Farage to say he wanted to chop a woman up and put her in his freezer while criticising Osborne for making a military/political analogy. Each to their own
    Context is everything. If you shout “fire” in a crowded theatre you may cause deaths. Shout the same thing at a bonfire at home and you risk nothing.

    Nigel Farage is shouting fire in a crowded theatre.
    I disagree
    You disagree with Richard Tyndall then, who has predicted violence from Brexiteers?
    No I disagree that George Osborne's turn of phrase was not more worthy of criticism than Farage's analogy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,180

    Excellent header, as usual Cyclefree...and lest those following the Putin line that Assange is a 'journalist' forget that unlike responsible outlets - like the Guardian, which redacted names in reporting Wikileaks - Assange did not:


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/30/us-military-wikileaks-afghanistan-war-logs

    The Guardian deserves no credit for the redaction they and other media organisations did, as two of their 'journalists' 'accidentally' released the password for the master unredacted archive, which is why they're in the wild.

    They were utterly irresponsible. Personally the incident is so egregious it has to be deliberate.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,180
    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    If you really do try to understand where other people are coming from, then the comments you've made on this thread about Lammy seem rather odd.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 26,830
    edited April 14
    It's best to avoid inflammatory rhetoric, even if it is just rhetoric, as some people may see it as a green light to go out and attack people.

    I don't really see Farage's comment about 'putting the fear of God into politicians" as being beyond the pale (it's like Tony Benn saying the politicians should tremble as they await the voters' verdict). OTOH, cracks about someone being too ugly to rape are repulsive.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    If you really do try to understand where other people are coming from, then the comments you've made on this thread about Lammy seem rather odd.
    So be it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
    FOM is damaging for the British working class, yes
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
    FOM is damaging for the British working class, yes
    Is it damaging for the German working class?
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
    FOM is damaging for the British working class, yes
    Is it damaging for the German working class?
    Neither know, nor care
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,875
    edited April 14
    Am I the only one to think this rush to pronounce Assange guilty without any kind of trial disgusting?

    Whatever happened to being presumed innocent?

    Does anyone here actually have any real evidence that he skipped bail? Surely we should remain silent on this until the trial.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 7,897
    Anyone advocating political violence should be the first against the wall.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,353
    Molinari 2 clear, 8 to go......
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,180
    rcs1000 said:

    Am I the only one to think this rush to pronounce Assange guilty without any kind of trial disgusting?

    Whatever happened to being presumed innocent?

    Does anyone here actually have any real evidence that he skipped bail? Surely we should remain silent on this until the trial.

    I wonder if he's going to use the those-nasty-Ecuadorians-were-keeping-me-captive-in-the-embassy defence?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
    FOM is damaging for the British working class, yes
    Is it damaging for the German working class?
    Neither know, nor care
    If you're a working class man from Essex who meets a Polish girl who came here under FOM and falls in love and starts a family, have you been damaged by FOM?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,875
    As an aside, Julian Assange had better hope to be extradited to Sweden to face his sex molestation charges first. Because then, it will be the Swedish government (and not our own) who is considering the extradition request from the US government.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
    FOM is damaging for the British working class, yes
    Is it damaging for the German working class?
    Neither know, nor care
    If you're a working class man from Essex who meets a Polish girl who came here under FOM and falls in love and starts a family, have you been damaged by FOM?
    No, but I am not saying it is a blanket negative for each individual but on balance a negative for a group.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,976
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
    FOM is damaging for the British working class, yes
    Is it damaging for the German working class?
    Neither know, nor care
    If you're a working class man from Essex who meets a Polish girl who came here under FOM and falls in love and starts a family, have you been damaged by FOM?
    No, but I am not saying it is a blanket negative for each individual but on balance a negative for a group.
    If it's positive for some individuals, where does the downside come from?
  • mattmatt Posts: 2,700
    The politicians (various) have laid in because after the complexity and difficultly of Brexit, this is a simple morality play and the US is invariably immoral in such plays. There’s no need to confront complex issues* so politicians can revert to simplistic emoting. That’s always easier.

    *there is but the US is always wrong and Swedish rape is just a few fingers, not really a proper crime.
  • isamisam Posts: 25,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I do try to do the latter, hence I don't use pejorative terms for comfortably off Remainers who voted, in my opinion, to continue to damage the lives of the working class, and just think of them as lacking in empathy.

    What do you think of working class Remainers?
    Everyone has their reasons, I don't really think bad of anyone for voting the way they do, within reason.
    You think they're voting to do damage to other working class people, or to themselves as well? In what form does this damage manifest itself?
    Yes, I think they are voting to do damage to other working class people but am ready to accept that they don't think they are doing that
    What form of damage?
    FOM
    They're damaged by having freedom?
    FOM is damaging for the British working class, yes
    Is it damaging for the German working class?
    Neither know, nor care
    If you're a working class man from Essex who meets a Polish girl who came here under FOM and falls in love and starts a family, have you been damaged by FOM?
    No, but I am not saying it is a blanket negative for each individual but on balance a negative for a group.
    If it's positive for some individuals, where does the downside come from?
    Loss of job security, lower wages, rapidly changing neighbourhoods, longer queues at the doctors...
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 7,657
    edited April 14
    rcs1000 said:

    Am I the only one to think this rush to pronounce Assange guilty without any kind of trial disgusting?

    Whatever happened to being presumed innocent?

    Does anyone here actually have any real evidence that he skipped bail? Surely we should remain silent on this until the trial.

    I thought the trial (such as it was) for skipping bail had already happened (on Thursday within hours of him being arrested)?

    EDIT: Julian Assange branded 'narcissist' by judge as he is found guilty of breaching bail conditions - https://news.sky.com/story/julian-assange-branded-narcissist-by-judge-as-he-is-found-guilty-of-breaching-bail-conditions-11690834
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 21,497
    rcs1000 said:

    Am I the only one to think this rush to pronounce Assange guilty without any kind of trial disgusting?

    Whatever happened to being presumed innocent?

    Does anyone here actually have any real evidence that he skipped bail? Surely we should remain silent on this until the trial.

    Ask the luvvies who wrote £200k worth of bail cheques for him, never expecting that they would actually get cashed!
This discussion has been closed.