Having rented for a short period a few years back, I think the government proposals are very welcome. That's assuming they actually get round to doing anything afterwards, and this isn't another consultation that goes nowhere. If you've been a good tenant and looked after a property it is shocking to get a letter out of the blue giving you just a few weeks to move house, and as others have said it doesnt work this way in most of Europe.
Perhaps, but equally tenants here, for example, expect a kitchen to be provided. That’s not the expectation in Germany. Off to IKEA you go.
To be honest some ability to improve the property would also be welcome. Almost all tenancy contracts I have seen are amazingly restrictive - no pets (in Germany I believe such contracts are illegal), no decoration, not even able to put picture hooks into walls.
It's difficult to half and half it.
Either it makes sense for you have the right and obligation to maintain or improve, or neither.
Banning picture hooks is taking it to extremes, however. When I rented I had to get written permission from the lettings agent to hang some pictures, on condition that I filled in the tiny holes with filler when I vacated. When the agent's assessor came round to do the vacation inspection, she actually checked that I had done so in each room. Not, of course, because the owner was bothered about the little holes, but to find reasons to withhold some of the deposit.
In my post above I gave the name of a private individual. This was so that his interview could be found in the link (it was a long programme and his bit was short). Looking at the responses I think that post opens that individual to doxxing, which is unfair on him. If you can, can you delete or redact that post please?
"The issue comes not from either security or price controls, but a combination of both
* Fixed prices - leads to rapid turnover in tenants (as this is an opportunity to reset pricing) * Long security - leads to good tenants getting lower rents (certainty) and bad tenants higher rents (risk). Probably unintended consequences! * Combination - leads to no incentive for investment in the property so a decline in the quality of the housing stock and good landlords leaving the sector for reputational and return reasons"
Presumably all this can be managed? Outside of fixed terms, 4-6 month notice period for landlords to tenants as suggested below, 1-2 months notice for tenants, cap on annual increases on rents at RPI+5% would not be particularly onerous?
We have a fair rent price control, which is tied to market rents, in section 13 of the Housing Act. I suspect we will be hearing a lot more about it if s.21 is abolished.
As to the notice, you could extend the notice period - or you could change the first time it can be served. I prefer the latter. Two months is enough to move home, so the notice does its job - if the intention is to extend the minimum term of tenancies, we should do that directly.
I would be happy with any weak form of rent control, the objective should be to stop landlords arbitrarily and significantly increasing rents to force tenants out rather than "pure" rent control. I guess the existing one is largely irrelevant thanks to s21 so agree with your point.
Two months notice is not a lot, especially given more and more families are renting nowadays. Increasing up to four to six months would change a lot of peoples lives positively.
The main aspects of renting that need sorting out in my opinion are:
1) some reliable system of references (both ways); and 2) the deposit system, which seems to work terribly for both honest landlords and honest tenants
It's surprising that no equivalent of tripadvisor has really filled the niche for 1.
Don't get me started on deposits. The government scheme have actually lost our tenant's deposit so I'm on the hook for that when she leaves (because the useless drug addled mother****ers are refusing to admit liability).
don't you have a bank transfer as evidence?
Unfortunately not, because I did not own the property at the time the tenant moved in and a lot of the paperwork at both ends has gone missing.
The fact my mother had undiagnosed dementia for the last months of her life is some excuse for her. The fact the letting agents she used (before I sacked them) were extraordinarily incompetent is a fair defence for the tenant.
I would pay good money to know what the government's excuse is for not even recognising their own receipt.
At any rate, that's £900 I shall have to find somehow should my tenant give notice.
And you can't get a bank statement showing you'd sent the money to the agent at least? You might have a claim against them
At this moment, no. We don't know where about half of my mother's bank statements are and as she had several accounts tracing things isn't proving easy.
Having rented for a short period a few years back, I think the government proposals are very welcome. That's assuming they actually get round to doing anything afterwards, and this isn't another consultation that goes nowhere. If you've been a good tenant and looked after a property it is shocking to get a letter out of the blue giving you just a few weeks to move house, and as others have said it doesnt work this way in most of Europe.
Perhaps, but equally tenants here, for example, expect a kitchen to be provided. That’s not the expectation in Germany. Off to IKEA you go.
To be honest some ability to improve the property would also be welcome. Almost all tenancy contracts I have seen are amazingly restrictive - no pets (in Germany I believe such contracts are illegal), no decoration, not even able to put picture hooks into walls.
It's difficult to half and half it.
Either it makes sense for you have the right and obligation to maintain or improve, or neither.
Banning picture hooks is taking it to extremes, however. When I rented I had to get written permission from the lettings agent to hang some pictures, on condition that I filled in the tiny holes with filler when I vacated. When the agent's assessor came round to do the vacation inspection, she actually checked that I had done so in each room. Not, of course, because the owner was bothered about the little holes, but to find reasons to withhold some of the deposit.
I agree that is too far.
Personally I wouldn't have bothered and let them take £5 or something per picture hook.
It's an interesting area for policy debate and discussion but to take a political angle first, the Conservatives have always been about home ownership because it increases their level of support. For reasons of aspiration and financial security, people with mortgages seem more inclined to support tax cutting parties.
The arguments for an active private rental sector in London have been made elsewhere but the sheer demand has allowed unscrupulous landlords to create new slums - semi-detached suburban houses with 20 or more sleeping in them and numbers of these properties with external additional dwellings.
The advent of buy-to-let was driven by house prices rising 10% or more pa with interest rates on the floor - why invest in something with no return or a risk when you can bet on the certainty of bricks and mortar?
Renting is one aspect of the housing issue and can't be seen in isolation. The provision of new house is fine as far as it goes but as I commented last week, there are signs with the decline in traditional retail of the "High Street" evolving into something new and it's my belief the traditional suburb is also in its final phase as other factors change how we live and bring where we work, where we live and where we relax physically much closer.
"The issue comes not from either security or price controls, but a combination of both
* Fixed prices - leads to rapid turnover in tenants (as this is an opportunity to reset pricing) * Long security - leads to good tenants getting lower rents (certainty) and bad tenants higher rents (risk). Probably unintended consequences! * Combination - leads to no incentive for investment in the property so a decline in the quality of the housing stock and good landlords leaving the sector for reputational and return reasons"
Presumably all this can be managed? Outside of fixed terms, 4-6 month notice period for landlords to tenants as suggested below, 1-2 months notice for tenants, cap on annual increases on rents at RPI+5% would not be particularly onerous?
Yes - either fixed price or long security on their own can be managed through flexing the other
If a combination set of rules were reasonable - as you suggest - it would be fine. But when have you ever heard of a politician leaving something as reasonable? You can see the Daily Mail "why are rents rising faster than inflation" campaign already.
We rented many places over the years, and have several 'bad' stories:
*) The 'long-term let' (min 2 years) where we were thrown out after six months, because the owner wanted to move his family into the house. Later found he'd re-rented it to a friend's family. We decided it wasn't worth fighting it - we'd rather have a friendly landlord than one who didn't want us in, and were well used to moving.
*) A house in Cambridge where, when we moved in, I put on the manifest that the patio doors had been nailed shut. When we moved out, the landlord tried to take all our deposit because *we'd* nailed the patio doors shut. The agent backed him up - until I showed her the photos and emails I'd sent her when we moved in with the door nailed shut, and with the doors slightly mucky from the nail, showing it had been there for some time.
That latter house has a classic: there was a problem with a bulb, so I went to change it. The bayonet fixing in the housing had lost one lug, so someone had pushed a piece of card up the side of the bulb to hold it in. A slightly browned piece of card ...
The main aspects of renting that need sorting out in my opinion are:
1) some reliable system of references (both ways); and 2) the deposit system, which seems to work terribly for both honest landlords and honest tenants
It's surprising that no equivalent of tripadvisor has really filled the niche for 1.
Don't get me started on deposits. The government scheme have actually lost our tenant's deposit so I'm on the hook for that when she leaves (because the useless drug addled mother****ers are refusing to admit liability).
don't you have a bank transfer as evidence?
Unfortunately not, because I did not own the property at the time the tenant moved in and a lot of the paperwork at both ends has gone missing.
The fact my mother had undiagnosed dementia for the last months of her life is some excuse for her. The fact the letting agents she used (before I sacked them) were extraordinarily incompetent is a fair defence for the tenant.
I would pay good money to know what the government's excuse is for not even recognising their own receipt.
At any rate, that's £900 I shall have to find somehow should my tenant give notice.
And you can't get a bank statement showing you'd sent the money to the agent at least? You might have a claim against them
At this moment, no. We don't know where about half of my mother's bank statements are and as she had several accounts tracing things isn't proving easy.
The banks should be able to give you a CSV file with all the transactions...
Yes, London has a more extreme problem than other cities, and in some parts of the country things are fine. London and the South East is around a quarter of the population, add in the regional towns and cities where its a problem and you are probably up to 35-45% of the population live in places where the gap between earnings and house prices is too big.
For young people that % will be higher as they naturally tend to live in cities, especially those where there are more and better jobs.
From a political perspective it is the young people in those areas that have tended to switch to Conservative voters in their thirties and forties as they built up capital to conserve. That has stopped happening at anything like the same rate.
I think that links in to what Sean Fear was saying yesterday about the more economically active areas trending leftwards while old mining areas (which have affordable housing) have moved rightwards.
There's also this report:
' Middle-class families are seeing their incomes stagnating as they are squeezed by the ultra-rich taking a bigger slice, says an international report from the OECD economics think tank.
The report says the middle classes are being "hollowed out", with declining chances of rising prosperity and growing fears of job insecurity. '
I have previously mentioned what I refer to as 'middle class regression' ie people with a middle class background and middle class education and employment who are not able to enjoy a middle class lifestyle, of which home ownership is traditionally a major aspect.
It's a paradox that it's much easier to enjoy a middle class lifestyle in Mansfield than in Palmers Green.
I find it amusing that The Sunday Times 'Best Places To Live' shows more interest in the availability of fishmongers than they do in the local housing costs and pay rates.
"The issue comes not from either security or price controls, but a combination of both
* Fixed prices - leads to rapid turnover in tenants (as this is an opportunity to reset pricing) * Long security - leads to good tenants getting lower rents (certainty) and bad tenants higher rents (risk). Probably unintended consequences! * Combination - leads to no incentive for investment in the property so a decline in the quality of the housing stock and good landlords leaving the sector for reputational and return reasons"
Presumably all this can be managed? Outside of fixed terms, 4-6 month notice period for landlords to tenants as suggested below, 1-2 months notice for tenants, cap on annual increases on rents at RPI+5% would not be particularly onerous?
Yes - either fixed price or long security on their own can be managed through flexing the other
If a combination set of rules were reasonable - as you suggest - it would be fine. But when have you ever heard of a politician leaving something as reasonable? You can see the Daily Mail "why are rents rising faster than inflation" campaign already.
Would you be content for section 13 (market rent) to be retained? Naturally some tenants would accept slightly above market because they do not know the state of the market/don't want to bother.
What's going on with Boris's trousers? Incidentally photographic evidence to the right of BJ that Michael Fabricant is in fact evil dwarf Johnson spawn.
He needs to find a group to blame for rent robbery. Maybe a group his party already has form with. Blame them and then say its outrageous to accuse him of bigotry against said group. I'm stumped for who though.
"The issue comes not from either security or price controls, but a combination of both
* Fixed prices - leads to rapid turnover in tenants (as this is an opportunity to reset pricing) * Long security - leads to good tenants getting lower rents (certainty) and bad tenants higher rents (risk). Probably unintended consequences! * Combination - leads to no incentive for investment in the property so a decline in the quality of the housing stock and good landlords leaving the sector for reputational and return reasons"
Presumably all this can be managed? Outside of fixed terms, 4-6 month notice period for landlords to tenants as suggested below, 1-2 months notice for tenants, cap on annual increases on rents at RPI+5% would not be particularly onerous?
Yes - either fixed price or long security on their own can be managed through flexing the other
If a combination set of rules were reasonable - as you suggest - it would be fine. But when have you ever heard of a politician leaving something as reasonable? You can see the Daily Mail "why are rents rising faster than inflation" campaign already.
Sadly media calls for "something must be done" are the bane of a well functioning liberal democracy.
Mr. Above, quite agree. A juvenile media isn't helping a situation in which politicians often have little respect for free speech and knowledge about technology.
I still remember an old Checkpoint (intelligent and humorous videogame news show by LoadingReadyRun) years ago in which the British adult material filter was mocked for blocking a certain file because a letter string was something like 's.ex' or 'sex'.
I guess he'll do rent control, which is great politics, because it creates an eternal whack-a-mole game of landlords coming up with new ways to be abusive to tenants each of which the government then bans, and each individual whack of the mole is electorally popular.
I guess he'll do rent control, which is great politics, because it creates an eternal whack-a-mole game of landlords coming up with new ways to be abusive to tenants each of which the government then bans, and each individual whack of the mole is electorally popular.
Starmer seems to have won his argument that scrapping s.21 altogether (rather than 3 or 5 year? don't recall) was preferable to rent controls.
The main aspects of renting that need sorting out in my opinion are:
1) some reliable system of references (both ways); and 2) the deposit system, which seems to work terribly for both honest landlords and honest tenants
It's surprising that no equivalent of tripadvisor has really filled the niche for 1.
AirBnB is more or less that isn’t it?
Yes but only for holiday lets. I was thinking of more long term tenancies.
Mr. Above, quite agree. A juvenile media isn't helping a situation in which politicians often have little respect for free speech and knowledge about technology.
I still remember an old Checkpoint (intelligent and humorous videogame news show by LoadingReadyRun) years ago in which the British adult material filter was mocked for blocking a certain file because a letter string was something like 's.ex' or 'sex'.
You mean as with people from Scunthorpe or Penistone being unable to contribute to on-line discussions?
I guess he'll do rent control, which is great politics, because it creates an eternal whack-a-mole game of landlords coming up with new ways to be abusive to tenants each of which the government then bans, and each individual whack of the mole is electorally popular.
If he has a majority Id imagine any rent control Corbyn introduces would be onerous and bad for the sector. Some form of right to buy for private tenants would also come in at the expense of a mix of govt funds and landlords.
Reform is overdue and necessary, if the tories don't tackle it now it will be worse for their voters in the long run.
King Cole, quite. It's indicative of the level of technological deficiency many politicians and journalists suffer (a BBC article a few years ago warned against using e-readers before bed because the blue light they emitted disrupted sleep patterns. Only they didn't, because e-readers don't emit that, it's a problem if you read e-books on tablets, which are different devices...).
I guess he'll do rent control, which is great politics, because it creates an eternal whack-a-mole game of landlords coming up with new ways to be abusive to tenants each of which the government then bans, and each individual whack of the mole is electorally popular.
In addition, this will effectively eliminate private landlords eventually thereby increasing the need for council property, a rich seam of future labour/Marxist votes.
I guess he'll do rent control, which is great politics, because it creates an eternal whack-a-mole game of landlords coming up with new ways to be abusive to tenants each of which the government then bans, and each individual whack of the mole is electorally popular.
Reform is overdue and necessary, if the tories don't tackle it now it will be worse for their voters in the long run.
Thats the issue over almost everything at the moment. I'd prefer MUCH prefer all these needed reforms to be done by a tory party. Thats in areas in which the current systems and legislation are out of date and which need looking at.
But the tories seems to be in a massive circle jerk over Europe, whilst Corbyn just needs to sit back, and look like he will do 'something' when he gets into power, which he probably will.
I'm interested as to who owns all these rental properties on the continent? Buy to let people? Families with some inherited wealth? Housing associates?
A big part of the resentment around rental in UK is that it is seen, rightly or wrongly, that many of the landlords are middle class dinner party types who have used it as an extra pension planning strategy.
While some properties are let privately, my impression from renting in Germany was that most rentals are professional lets by companies that own whole apartment blocks.
Yes the landlords are mainly companies. In the last few decades the states have been selling their state owned social housing to private companies but with very strict rules about rent and contract conditions. Buying property to let is seen as a long term investment and you have to be prepared to be fair to the tenants and look after the property. In the cities each building is a block of many flats (from 8 to 50 flats), so a typical middle class family cannot afford to buy a whole building to let out.
There are many people who buy a flat/house, but buying is a beaurocratic hassle and moving between owner occupied flats/houses is rare other than just after retiring.
It's not all rosy in Germany as this article from The Economist indicates:-
"The issue comes not from either security or price controls, but a combination of both
* Fixed prices - leads to rapid turnover in tenants (as this is an opportunity to reset pricing) * Long security - leads to good tenants getting lower rents (certainty) and bad tenants higher rents (risk). Probably unintended consequences! * Combination - leads to no incentive for investment in the property so a decline in the quality of the housing stock and good landlords leaving the sector for reputational and return reasons"
Presumably all this can be managed? Outside of fixed terms, 4-6 month notice period for landlords to tenants as suggested below, 1-2 months notice for tenants, cap on annual increases on rents at RPI+5% would not be particularly onerous?
Yes - either fixed price or long security on their own can be managed through flexing the other
If a combination set of rules were reasonable - as you suggest - it would be fine. But when have you ever heard of a politician leaving something as reasonable? You can see the Daily Mail "why are rents rising faster than inflation" campaign already.
Would you be content for section 13 (market rent) to be retained? Naturally some tenants would accept slightly above market because they do not know the state of the market/don't want to bother.
I don't know enough about the details to comment to be honest. I've never let a retail property myself (the only retail investments we do tend to be very very bespoke).
"The issue comes not from either security or price controls, but a combination of both
* Fixed prices - leads to rapid turnover in tenants (as this is an opportunity to reset pricing) * Long security - leads to good tenants getting lower rents (certainty) and bad tenants higher rents (risk). Probably unintended consequences! * Combination - leads to no incentive for investment in the property so a decline in the quality of the housing stock and good landlords leaving the sector for reputational and return reasons"
Presumably all this can be managed? Outside of fixed terms, 4-6 month notice period for landlords to tenants as suggested below, 1-2 months notice for tenants, cap on annual increases on rents at RPI+5% would not be particularly onerous?
Yes - either fixed price or long security on their own can be managed through flexing the other
If a combination set of rules were reasonable - as you suggest - it would be fine. But when have you ever heard of a politician leaving something as reasonable? You can see the Daily Mail "why are rents rising faster than inflation" campaign already.
Sadly media calls for "something must be done" are the bane of a well functioning liberal democracy.
The problem isn't the media calls, it's the fact that politicians will respond without considering the implications
In this case, they will initially be capped to RPI and then to CPI and then frozen during the next downturn (hardship, obviously). And then frozen in perpetuity (which politician is going to lift a rent freeze after all).
And then you end up with underinvestment in the rental sector, poor housing stock and Rachmanesque behaviour
This glimpse into the type of discussion we'll be having in the post brexit reality is neither thrilling nor acrimonious. What's tomorrow? Pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre?
UKIP are a totally busted flush. All they have left is brand recognition amongst the politically unaware. And they have virtually no funds.
Their leader going on BBC1 defending Tommy Robinson and a guy who uses rape jokes as satire probably didn't help much! Think the Brexit/UKIP party gap will be bigger than people think. After all remember leave voters are adamant they know exactly what they are voting for, so very unlikely to get confused.
This glimpse into the type of discussion we'll be having in the post brexit reality is neither thrilling nor acrimonious. What's tomorrow? Pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre?
This glimpse into the type of discussion we'll be having in the post brexit reality is neither thrilling nor acrimonious. What's tomorrow? Pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre?
It's already part pedestrianised
I’ll be honest, I’m dead against it. I mean, people forget that traders need access to Dixons.
This glimpse into the type of discussion we'll be having in the post brexit reality is neither thrilling nor acrimonious. What's tomorrow? Pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre?
It's already part pedestrianised
I’ll be honest, I’m dead against it. I mean, people forget that traders need access to Dixons.
They do say it’ll help people in wheelchairs.
Gentleman's walk has been foot transport only since the early 80s, its funky. Norwich is just better than any other city on any metric
This glimpse into the type of discussion we'll be having in the post brexit reality is neither thrilling nor acrimonious. What's tomorrow? Pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre?
It's already part pedestrianised
I’ll be honest, I’m dead against it. I mean, people forget that traders need access to Dixons.
They do say it’ll help people in wheelchairs.
Gentleman's walk has been foot transport only since the early 80s, its funky. Norwich is just better than any other city on any metric
I presume it is fine to link to "rival" sites? Housing coming up high on the voter priorities for 3 of their 4 brexit voter types.
Thx for the link. This appears key:
"There does however seem a shift in sentiment among Left Wing Leavers with a quarter them now ranking Remain as their top preference and also among Sovereignty Remainers. Leave voters who have changed their minds mostly voted Labour in 2017 while changing Remain voters mostly voted Conservative"
This glimpse into the type of discussion we'll be having in the post brexit reality is neither thrilling nor acrimonious. What's tomorrow? Pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre?
It's already part pedestrianised
I’ll be honest, I’m dead against it. I mean, people forget that traders need access to Dixons.
They do say it’ll help people in wheelchairs.
Gentleman's walk has been foot transport only since the early 80s, its funky. Norwich is just better than any other city on any metric
The main aspects of renting that need sorting out in my opinion are:
1) some reliable system of references (both ways); and 2) the deposit system, which seems to work terribly for both honest landlords and honest tenants
It's surprising that no equivalent of tripadvisor has really filled the niche for 1.
I don’t think you would necessarily get a tripadvisor style site for several reasons
1. It said on Radio 4 this morning the average length of a tenancy is 4 years - this is not frequent enough to justify 2. Whereas hotels and restaurants are freely advertised and have always been reviewed, private landlords and private citizens renting do not openly market 3. It would be pretty serious if someone blackballed you - potentially homeless or unable to rent multiple properties costing ££££
I presume it is fine to link to "rival" sites? Housing coming up high on the voter priorities for 3 of their 4 brexit voter types.
Thx for the link. This appears key:
"There does however seem a shift in sentiment among Left Wing Leavers with a quarter them now ranking Remain as their top preference and also among Sovereignty Remainers. Leave voters who have changed their minds mostly voted Labour in 2017 while changing Remain voters mostly voted Conservative"
Whereas this is no surprise:
"Preference for no-deal is disproportionately favoured by Leave voters best positioned to weather any economic impact."
I used to enjoy a drink or two at the Trowel & Hammer in the Unthank Road many moons ago.
I shed no tears for UKIP - it served its purpose, It agitated for a referendum, got a referendum and achieved the desired result. I suspect had REMAIN won, UKIP would have gone on as a fringe political force but, and this is a rarity for political parties, it achieved its primary political raison d'etre after which it became entirely superfluous.
As for the Brexit Party, I'm left with the irony it will do very well in an election which, for many of its members and supporters, shouldn't be happening and most of whom would rather exit on June 1st and not fight the election at all.
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
Whilst Farage is distasteful he is not a fascist. I’m not sure I could now say the same of UKIP. Lots of normal people won’t be aware of what UKIP now stands for so we shouldn’t be that downbeat if UKIP gets a good level of support in the upcoming elections particularly euros.
Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
EDL vs bunch of tossers in mustard cords. Oh who to cheer for
I’m really upset that I feel that the need to point out Farage is not a fascist, only objectionable. A bit like Lammy calling the ERG nazis, or Assange being a whistleblower, our political discourse is limited when those on either side use hyperbole to describe their opponents
"This means that whatever the outcome of Brexit - and whichever means are used to bring it about - most people will not be happy."
I think that is only partially true. With the current leadership styles most people will not end up happy. I do not think either May's deal or a softer brexit is unsellable to over half the country with the right leadership; very much a struggle to see who that person is from the current choices. Ken Clarke could do it but wont be asked. Perhaps it is Boris selling Mays deal to the no-dealers.
Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?
It appears so, but I’m sure that the relevant authorities are looking at it
I used to enjoy a drink or two at the Trowel & Hammer in the Unthank Road many moons ago.
I shed no tears for UKIP - it served its purpose, It agitated for a referendum, got a referendum and achieved the desired result. I suspect had REMAIN won, UKIP would have gone on as a fringe political force but, and this is a rarity for political parties, it achieved its primary political raison d'etre after which it became entirely superfluous.
As for the Brexit Party, I'm left with the irony it will do very well in an election which, for many of its members and supporters, shouldn't be happening and most of whom would rather exit on June 1st and not fight the election at all.
And the only reason we are having those elections is because Brexiteers won't agree to exit the EU.
I used to enjoy a drink or two at the Trowel & Hammer in the Unthank Road many moons ago.
I shed no tears for UKIP - it served its purpose, It agitated for a referendum, got a referendum and achieved the desired result. I suspect had REMAIN won, UKIP would have gone on as a fringe political force but, and this is a rarity for political parties, it achieved its primary political raison d'etre after which it became entirely superfluous.
As for the Brexit Party, I'm left with the irony it will do very well in an election which, for many of its members and supporters, shouldn't be happening and most of whom would rather exit on June 1st and not fight the election at all.
Do you mean the trowel and hammer on st Stephens? I drank in it a lot when it went through a phase as an Irish pub called Finnegans Wake. My gf and I would spend all day Saturday getting off our faces in there. Its back as the T and H now, played in thd pool league there a few times recently Unthank road pubs are the Lily Langtry (now some gin place), the Rose Valley (my dad used to run it) now called the William and Florence, the Tuns now The Temple Bar, Georgian Townhouse and the Eaton cottage
Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.
We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.
Mr. Above, quite agree. A juvenile media isn't helping a situation in which politicians often have little respect for free speech and knowledge about technology.
I still remember an old Checkpoint (intelligent and humorous videogame news show by LoadingReadyRun) years ago in which the British adult material filter was mocked for blocking a certain file because a letter string was something like 's.ex' or 'sex'.
Good show. Yes, if it cannot even manage that, it at the least is very poorly implemented.
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper age needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
Anyone expect the Govt-Opposition talks to result in a deal?
Or a breakdown with both sides blaming the other's intransigence?
I think Labour are stringing it out so they can say "we tried" - but all they want is govt collapse and a GE. Fair enough, its their job, but lets not have any sanctimony about putting 'Party before Country' when criticising the government.
Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.
We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.
We do seem to live in a world in which no argument can ever be sufficiently exaggerated.
Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.
We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.
I find it incredibly depressing. I’ll stand corrected but the Labour MP I think Cat Smith saying she couldn’t be friends with a Tory is also astonishing. I’d love politics to be a bit more common compromising because we’re all fallible. Our experiences define us but none of us have the same.
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
I think that is the EDL mob. Basically the young men who decades ago would be football hooligans.
JRM is more like the Prussian Junkers who abetted the rise of the Nazis, thinking they could control them. A combination of naivety and arrogance.
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
Yes I remember recently seeing a demographic theory of history that suggested that unrest and revolutions tended to happen in populations with population cohort bulges in the late teens and 20s. After that people generally have too much to lose by being revolutionary
This glimpse into the type of discussion we'll be having in the post brexit reality is neither thrilling nor acrimonious. What's tomorrow? Pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre?
Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?
Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.
We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.
We do seem to live in a world in which no argument can ever be sufficiently exaggerated.
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
Beautifully put. Also I don't think the average UKipper is a fascist, some undoubtedly are, but doubt its the majority.
Anyone expect the Govt-Opposition talks to result in a deal?
Or a breakdown with both sides blaming the other's intransigence?
I think Labour are stringing it out so they can say "we tried" - but all they want is govt collapse and a GE. Fair enough, its their job, but lets not have any sanctimony about putting 'Party before Country' when criticising the government.
No.
Yes.
Probably. Although in fairness we don't know for certain that the government have even offered anything concrete yet which would show Labour are merely demanding their policy in its entirety, that is not compromising.
It's definitely being strung out, since the options available are not complicated for people who have discussed little else for 2 years. Even trying to assess which options might provoke how much resentment in each others' party ranks would not take all that long. A long weekend would be sufficient to test it all out in discussions.
Mr. F, current times make me think a little of this, by Thucydides:
"Words had to change their ordinary meaning and to take that which was now given them. Reckless audacity came to be considered the courage of a loyal ally; prudent hesitation, specious cowardice; moderation was held to be a cloak for unmanliness; ability to see all sides of a question, inaptness to act on any. Frantic violence became the attribute of manliness; cautious plotting, a justifiable means of self-defence. The advocate of extreme measures was always trustworthy; his opponent a man to be suspected. To succeed in a plot was to have a shrewd head, to divine a plot a still shrewder; but to try to provide against having to do either was to break up your party and to be afraid of your adversaries."
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
I think that is the EDL mob. Basically the young men who decades ago would be football hooligans.
JRM is more like the Prussian Junkers who abetted the rise of the Nazis, thinking they could control them. A combination of naivety and arrogance.
Yes this is a great analogy. I recently read the Shortest History of Germany by James Hayes which was excellent, and yes the ERG brigade are very like the Junkers. The key difference being quite a gap between them and UKIP 2 - KIP harder. This is why it is important for May or someone else to tie them into the Tory party
The devolved administrations have been remarkably successful with policy innovations that get later adopted by the UK. Banning tenancy renewal fees, dog shock collars, smacking etc
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
Yes I remember recently seeing a demographic theory of history that suggested that unrest and revolutions tended to happen in populations with population cohort bulges in the late teens and 20s. After that people generally have too much to lose by being revolutionary
Terrorist organisations tend to be filled with people aged 16 to 25.
Mr. Nakht, yeah. Overuse of the most extreme categorisations/insults effectively dilutes them significantly, even rendering them meaningless.
We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.
Look forward to similar strictures against blanket use of antisemitism, terrorist sympathiser, Stalinist, Leninist, Marxist etc. I'd hate to think anyone on here was diluting themselves into meaninglessness.
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
Beautifully put. Also I don't think the average UKipper is a fascist, some undoubtedly are, but doubt its the majority.
Although it would not be unreasonable to compare the situtation here and elsewhere with that of 1927-1930, on the rise to power (polling between 3% and 18%), rather than 1933 where they are basically consolidating their grip.
I agree, that it is counterproductive to draw these comparisons without nuance. And David Lammy is nothing if not "without nuance". On the other hand, pointing out when people are using the language of the far right (however they intend it to be interpreted) and promoting the utterances of those who avowedly are on the far right, is important; and we have been letting that slide for too long (whichever party it comes from).
Anyone expect the Govt-Opposition talks to result in a deal?
Or a breakdown with both sides blaming the other's intransigence?
I think Labour are stringing it out so they can say "we tried" - but all they want is govt collapse and a GE. Fair enough, its their job, but lets not have any sanctimony about putting 'Party before Country' when criticising the government.
No.
Yes.
Probably. Although in fairness we don't know for certain that the government have even offered anything concrete yet which would show Labour are merely demanding their policy in its entirety, that is not compromising.
It's definitely being strung out, since the options available are not complicated for people who have discussed little else for 2 years. Even trying to assess which options might provoke how much resentment in each others' party ranks would not take all that long. A long weekend would be sufficient to test it all out in discussions.
Government is pinning its hopes on AV-ing the option voting
The devolved administrations have been remarkably successful with policy innovations that get later adopted by the UK. Banning tenancy renewal fees, dog shock collars, smacking etc
That sounds more like displacement activity to me.
Genuinely great news on roasting the scumbag landlords, unfortunately any moves we make on this will be drowned out by not actually getting brexit done. Still, a great move.
The devolved administrations have been remarkably successful with policy innovations that get later adopted by the UK. Banning tenancy renewal fees, dog shock collars, smacking etc
It is one of the benefits of devolution that best practices get spread around, not much talked about by the proponents of devolution but a significant plus. The flip side is people then complain about a "post-code" lottery when that is the obvious outcome of devolution and handing powers back locally.
Incidentally Nige's clear purple water thing last week was that the Brexit Party, unlike UKIP, would reject candidates/members with previous links to far right parties. Does UKIP Fash 2.0 count as a far right party?
Obviously, that does not include Nigel himself.
Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?
Quite happy to accommodate UKIP's association with Tommy Robinson, them heading down the electoral toilet pan not so much.
So it's the Tommy R Party Versus Big Nige.
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
One reason I think we are safe its this: in 1933 the Hitler Youth had 2.3m members. I don't think a serious fascist party can get by without a really substantial youth element, since kicking foreigners needs youthful strength and energy. So the average ukipper agree needs to fall by about 40 years before we have a problem.
Yes I remember recently seeing a demographic theory of history that suggested that unrest and revolutions tended to happen in populations with population cohort bulges in the late teens and 20s. After that people generally have too much to lose by being revolutionary
The devolved administrations have been remarkably successful with policy innovations that get later adopted by the UK. Banning tenancy renewal fees, dog shock collars, smacking etc
That sounds more like displacement activity to me.
Successful policies on reducing stabbing and homelessness are displacement activity? If you say so. And heaven forfend, a PPB that is mostly true.
Comments
In my post above I gave the name of a private individual. This was so that his interview could be found in the link (it was a long programme and his bit was short). Looking at the responses I think that post opens that individual to doxxing, which is unfair on him. If you can, can you delete or redact that post please?
Two months notice is not a lot, especially given more and more families are renting nowadays. Increasing up to four to six months would change a lot of peoples lives positively.
Personally I wouldn't have bothered and let them take £5 or something per picture hook.
It's an interesting area for policy debate and discussion but to take a political angle first, the Conservatives have always been about home ownership because it increases their level of support. For reasons of aspiration and financial security, people with mortgages seem more inclined to support tax cutting parties.
The arguments for an active private rental sector in London have been made elsewhere but the sheer demand has allowed unscrupulous landlords to create new slums - semi-detached suburban houses with 20 or more sleeping in them and numbers of these properties with external additional dwellings.
The advent of buy-to-let was driven by house prices rising 10% or more pa with interest rates on the floor - why invest in something with no return or a risk when you can bet on the certainty of bricks and mortar?
Renting is one aspect of the housing issue and can't be seen in isolation. The provision of new house is fine as far as it goes but as I commented last week, there are signs with the decline in traditional retail of the "High Street" evolving into something new and it's my belief the traditional suburb is also in its final phase as other factors change how we live and bring where we work, where we live and where we relax physically much closer.
https://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2019/04/details-delay-social-care-green-paper?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=
Obviously after the 2017 GE debacle, the Government will want to make certain any "new" policy can be sold to a sceptical electorate.
If a combination set of rules were reasonable - as you suggest - it would be fine. But when have you ever heard of a politician leaving something as reasonable? You can see the Daily Mail "why are rents rising faster than inflation" campaign already.
*) The 'long-term let' (min 2 years) where we were thrown out after six months, because the owner wanted to move his family into the house. Later found he'd re-rented it to a friend's family. We decided it wasn't worth fighting it - we'd rather have a friendly landlord than one who didn't want us in, and were well used to moving.
*) A house in Cambridge where, when we moved in, I put on the manifest that the patio doors had been nailed shut. When we moved out, the landlord tried to take all our deposit because *we'd* nailed the patio doors shut. The agent backed him up - until I showed her the photos and emails I'd sent her when we moved in with the door nailed shut, and with the doors slightly mucky from the nail, showing it had been there for some time.
That latter house has a classic: there was a problem with a bulb, so I went to change it. The bayonet fixing in the housing had lost one lug, so someone had pushed a piece of card up the side of the bulb to hold it in. A slightly browned piece of card ...
Incidentally, that landlord was a builder.
(I know way too much about retail banking)
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1117711516701200385
Incidentally photographic evidence to the right of BJ that Michael Fabricant is in fact evil dwarf Johnson spawn.
https://twitter.com/michael53021960/status/1117607300536176640
I'm stumped for who though.
I still remember an old Checkpoint (intelligent and humorous videogame news show by LoadingReadyRun) years ago in which the British adult material filter was mocked for blocking a certain file because a letter string was something like 's.ex' or 'sex'.
If they want to be part of the UK........
Reform is overdue and necessary, if the tories don't tackle it now it will be worse for their voters in the long run.
I presume it is fine to link to "rival" sites? Housing coming up high on the voter priorities for 3 of their 4 brexit voter types.
But the tories seems to be in a massive circle jerk over Europe, whilst Corbyn just needs to sit back, and look like he will do 'something' when he gets into power, which he probably will.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/04/13/a-referendum-to-expropriate-apartments-from-big-landlords-in-berlin
Not sure how popular a policy of expropriation would be here (or in Germany, come to that).
4 have quit this morning alone. Lol
In this case, they will initially be capped to RPI and then to CPI and then frozen during the next downturn (hardship, obviously). And then frozen in perpetuity (which politician is going to lift a rent freeze after all).
And then you end up with underinvestment in the rental sector, poor housing stock and Rachmanesque behaviour
https://twitter.com/alexGspence/status/1117729354740568065
They do say it’ll help people in wheelchairs.
"There does however seem a shift in sentiment among Left Wing Leavers with a quarter them now ranking Remain as their top preference and also among Sovereignty Remainers. Leave voters who have changed their minds mostly voted Labour in 2017 while changing Remain voters mostly voted Conservative"
That'll separate the fascists from the...er ....fascists
1. It said on Radio 4 this morning the average length of a tenancy is 4 years - this is not frequent enough to justify
2. Whereas hotels and restaurants are freely advertised and have always been reviewed, private landlords and private citizens renting do not openly market
3. It would be pretty serious if someone blackballed you - potentially homeless or unable to rent multiple properties costing ££££
"Preference for no-deal is disproportionately favoured by Leave voters best positioned to weather any economic impact."
I shed no tears for UKIP - it served its purpose, It agitated for a referendum, got a referendum and achieved the desired result. I suspect had REMAIN won, UKIP would have gone on as a fringe political force but, and this is a rarity for political parties, it achieved its primary political raison d'etre after which it became entirely superfluous.
As for the Brexit Party, I'm left with the irony it will do very well in an election which, for many of its members and supporters, shouldn't be happening and most of whom would rather exit on June 1st and not fight the election at all.
"This means that whatever the outcome of Brexit - and whichever means are used to bring it about - most people will not be happy."
I drank in it a lot when it went through a phase as an Irish pub called Finnegans Wake. My gf and I would spend all day Saturday getting off our faces in there. Its back as the T and H now, played in thd pool league there a few times recently
Unthank road pubs are the Lily Langtry (now some gin place), the Rose Valley (my dad used to run it) now called the William and Florence, the Tuns now The Temple Bar, Georgian Townhouse and the Eaton cottage
We see similar things with terms like sexism, racism, or human rights violations. The later is incredibly important but it's been used on such a broad basis (from condemning the evil UK for evicting squatters from Dale Farm which they'd illegally occupied for a decade all the way to North Korean concentration camps) it's all but meaningless.
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1117729904894803968
Anyone expect the Govt-Opposition talks to result in a deal?
Or a breakdown with both sides blaming the other's intransigence?
I think Labour are stringing it out so they can say "we tried" - but all they want is govt collapse and a GE. Fair enough, its their job, but lets not have any sanctimony about putting 'Party before Country' when criticising the government.
JRM is more like the Prussian Junkers who abetted the rise of the Nazis, thinking they could control them. A combination of naivety and arrogance.
Yes.
Probably. Although in fairness we don't know for certain that the government have even offered anything concrete yet which would show Labour are merely demanding their policy in its entirety, that is not compromising.
It's definitely being strung out, since the options available are not complicated for people who have discussed little else for 2 years. Even trying to assess which options might provoke how much resentment in each others' party ranks would not take all that long. A long weekend would be sufficient to test it all out in discussions.
https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1117739268259164160
"Words had to change their ordinary meaning and to take that which was now given them. Reckless audacity came to be considered the courage of a loyal ally; prudent hesitation, specious cowardice; moderation was held to be a cloak for unmanliness; ability to see all sides of a question, inaptness to act on any. Frantic violence became the attribute of manliness; cautious plotting, a justifiable means of self-defence. The advocate of extreme measures was always trustworthy; his opponent a man to be suspected. To succeed in a plot was to have a shrewd head, to divine a plot a still shrewder; but to try to provide against having to do either was to break up your party and to be afraid of your adversaries."
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thucydides
Edited extra bit: anyway, I must be off.
https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1117699022331027457
I agree, that it is counterproductive to draw these comparisons without nuance. And David Lammy is nothing if not "without nuance". On the other hand, pointing out when people are using the language of the far right (however they intend it to be interpreted) and promoting the utterances of those who avowedly are on the far right, is important; and we have been letting that slide for too long (whichever party it comes from).
Which far right party was he in that is proscribed by his current one?
http://tinyurl.com/ybv9x4ma