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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The CON Westminster polling looks dire as we head into next mo

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited April 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The CON Westminster polling looks dire as we head into next month’s local and EU elections

To get a good sense of how voting intention polls are going I always think it is best to look at all the recent surveys to spot the trend. And this April there is one big and clear message – the Tories are in a mass as we edge towards next week’s local elections and of course the Euro Parliament elections three weeks later.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Unsurprisingly really.

    The Euro elections are basically a free hit, neither supporters of Leave or Remain have cause to support the Tories at this stage.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    Are all the brexitty members going to leave the Tories? Because that would seriously affect both the leadership outlook (not so no-deal-ish) and the ability to remove TMay (if the headbangers are gone, it's safe to hold an election).
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2019

    Unsurprisingly really.

    The Euro elections are basically a free hit, neither supporters of Leave or Remain have cause to support the Tories at this stage.

    The local elections may be more interesting in some ways, because they'll be more of a traditional battle between the three main parties, without the Brexit Party and the TIGers.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336

    Are all the brexitty members going to leave the Tories? Because that would seriously affect both the leadership outlook (not so no-deal-ish) and the ability to remove TMay (if the headbangers are gone, it's safe to hold an election).

    They might well hang around long enough to make sure the party is beyond repair first.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,880
    Off-topic: I do wonder how different the history of Northern Ireland would be if smartphones and the like had been around in the 1960s.

    Bellingcat have got an article (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/04/19/an-open-source-survey-of-the-shooting-of-lyra-mckee/) on research into the shooting of lyra McKee, and it shows just how much open-source information was available.

    If there had been another five or ten extra cameras around on Bloody Sunday, would it have proven one way or another who fired first (*), thrown more light on what happened, and made things like the Widgery whitewash impossible? Might it have eased, rather than escalated tensions in the long run?

    (*) Not that that necessarily excuses the actions of the soldiers.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    If they'd announced that from the start it might have flown, too late to do it now though...
  • Options
    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Nigelb said:

    Are all the brexitty members going to leave the Tories? Because that would seriously affect both the leadership outlook (not so no-deal-ish) and the ability to remove TMay (if the headbangers are gone, it's safe to hold an election).

    They might well hang around long enough to make sure the party is beyond repair first.

    No, they're not going to leave the party; they are going to take it over.

    It's entirely possible the vast bulk of conservative membership will vote against their own official candidates next month
  • Options
    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    AndyJS said:

    Unsurprisingly really.

    The Euro elections are basically a free hit, neither supporters of Leave or Remain have cause to support the Tories at this stage.

    The local elections may be more interesting in some ways, because they'll be more of a traditional battle between the three main parties, without the Brexit Party and the TIGers.
    Absolutely agree. These elections really matter as they directly impact the provision of services to voters. The EU elections are all a bit theoretical.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336

    Nigelb said:

    Are all the brexitty members going to leave the Tories? Because that would seriously affect both the leadership outlook (not so no-deal-ish) and the ability to remove TMay (if the headbangers are gone, it's safe to hold an election).

    They might well hang around long enough to make sure the party is beyond repair first.

    No, they're not going to leave the party; they are going to take it over.

    It's entirely possible the vast bulk of conservative membership will vote against their own official candidates next month
    That’s hardly incompatible with what I said...

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    edited April 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    JackJack said:

    That may be the case but the only way parliament will vote for it is in a forced choice between deal and no deal. Just get Raab or whoever to fail to agree to any extension the week before the leave date and parliament will have to choose one way or another. The can kicking doesn't work with an unwilling PM.

    Similarly, I suspect much of the ERG - if the choice genuinely was between Remain and Deal - would choose the Deal.

    It seems highly likely to me that Deal is the clear Condorcet winner, if the choices are No Deal, Deal, and Remain.

    The problem is that the options the HoC believes they have in front of them are: Deal, No Deal, Unicorns, and Remain.

    And, Unicorns keep winning.
    Our biggest problem in a nutshell . The news May is to try unicorning again confirms they never believe the options will be reduced to two. If it could be then we would get an answer one way or another, but with extension and pretend party negotiations they'll never do that.

    And yes I call them pretend negotiations. The issues before our parties are difficult but not complex- they know the options in front of them, and it would not take long to discuss what each is prepared to do and not do, not even to assess potential party support for each option.

    Nigelb said:

    Are all the brexitty members going to leave the Tories? Because that would seriously affect both the leadership outlook (not so no-deal-ish) and the ability to remove TMay (if the headbangers are gone, it's safe to hold an election).

    They might well hang around long enough to make sure the party is beyond repair first.

    No, they're not going to leave the party; they are going to take it over.

    It's entirely possible the vast bulk of conservative membership will vote against their own official candidates next month
    Likely, not just possible. The Tory party is the no deal Brexit party, its MPs just havent caught up with that. Baker and co are not wrong when they claim to speak for the members better than others even though there are holdouts.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    The local elections will be a practical demonstration of the fact that Brexit is utterly irrelevant to most of the problems facing Britain, but will nonetheless dominate our politics for the foreseeable future.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    If they'd announced that from the start it might have flown, too late to do it now though...
    A world of difference between boycotting one by election and the EP elections. And on a practical level they have to accept we might be staying in and having zero MEPs does then no good.

    Being third is I think survivable if humiliating, particularly if they hold up better than expected in the locals. But they really need to set their shit out before the elections to limit the damage.

    Unfortunately they cannot sort their shit out without a Brexit resolution and they need labour for that, who have no reason to give them one.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    Jared Diamond has a new book out, which is not entirely irrelevant to the current contrite,ps:
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/21/jared-diamond-upheaval-migration-minorities-how-countries-solve-crisis

    I didn’t realise he’s now in his 80s.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    Nigelb said:

    Jared Diamond has a new book out, which is not entirely irrelevant to the current contrite,ps:
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/21/jared-diamond-upheaval-migration-minorities-how-countries-solve-crisis

    I didn’t realise he’s now in his 80s.

    How did contretemps become contrite,ps ??
    Autocorrect surrealism.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    Her time always seems borrowed.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    its not about Conservatives boycotting elections, its about voters boycotting the Conservatives
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    edited April 2019
    FPT

    williamglenn said:

    Ezra Klein

    @ezraklein
    That monopolies answer by Warren in her CNN townhall was killer. A master class is how to clearly explain a complex policy that’s without collapsing into jargon.

    The idea that Warren isn’t a charismatic speaker is insane. This is the stuff people gushed over Bill Clinton for.

    15.3K
    1:15 AM - Apr 23, 2019
    Twitter Ads info and privacy
    3,460 people are talking about this


    She's spot on about this. This sums it up for me:

    "you can be the umpire in the baseball game and you can run an honest platform. Or you can be a player, that is, you can have a business or you can have a team in the game. But you don’t get to be the umpire and have a team in the game."

    This is, in my view, one of the most urgent issues for the future competitiveness of western economies.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,821
    Andy says Tories have led in 30 of last 46 polls though!!!
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    edited April 2019
    On topic there is no question that the Tories made a serious mistake not boycotting the Euro elections. Had they done so they would be facing less of a backlash in the local elections too.

    Boycotting would have made them the party of Brexit giving Farage a real problem. Trying to get MEPs elected to a Parliament that their membership, activists and most of their supporters want absolutely nothing to do with is, well, stupid is the word that comes to mind.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,703
    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    edited April 2019
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited April 2019
    The interesting thing is Labour is also well down on the 40% it got at GE17 in almost all the above polls, the main shift is Tory to Brexit Party and UKIP rather than Tory to Corbyn Labour
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    No, they don't want to get more of their voters into the habit of voting Brexit Party or UKIP or indeeed CUK than they have to
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    HYUFD said:
    Yes, I am sure that for CHUK, keeping May in the driving seat as the Tories head towards the cliffedge is in their interests.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
    It is unbelievably glib - as well as poor statistics - simply to dismiss one poll you don’t like purely on the back of performance in one earlier event. Who is to say what changes to method may have been made since then?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
    So Brexit Party down by 4 points, and 6 weeks to go...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
    The implications for the security services acting against organisations like the New IRA are potentially useful, but the potential for the commercial sector is rather more sinister.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
    It is unbelievably glib - as well as poor statistics - simply to dismiss one poll you don’t like purely on the back of performance in one earlier event. Who is to say what changes to method may have been made since then?
    It is also unbelievably complacent of Remainers like you to completely dismiss the Brexit Party and suggest we are heading for a landslide Remain victory in a second referendum
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    DavidL said:

    On topic there is no question that the Tories made a serious mistake not boycotting the Euro elections. Had they done so they would be facing less of a backlash in the local elections too.

    Boycotting would have made them the party of Brexit giving Farage a real problem. Trying to get MEPs elected to a Parliament that their membership, activists and most of their supporters want absolutely nothing to do with is, well, stupid is the word that comes to mind.

    Too late, anyway.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:
    Yes, I am sure that for CHUK, keeping May in the driving seat as the Tories head towards the cliffedge is in their interests.
    CHUK will not back Corbyn either they want the indicative votes May is proposing and will push a second referendum or revoke
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
    It is unbelievably glib - as well as poor statistics - simply to dismiss one poll you don’t like purely on the back of performance in one earlier event. Who is to say what changes to method may have been made since then?
    It is also unbelievably complacent of Remainers like you to completely dismiss the Brexit Party and suggest we are heading for a landslide Remain victory in a second referendum
    I don't believe I have done either. All I have done is try to encourage you to think round things a little before filling these forums with your simplistic observations.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,976
    Foxy said:



    The implications for the security services acting against organisations like the New IRA are potentially useful, but the potential for the commercial sector is rather more sinister.

    The counter-terrorism game has certainly moved on since the good old days. From 2023 the RAF will have an armed drone (MQ-9B) that they can have over the 6 counties 24/7.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
    The implications for the security services acting against organisations like the New IRA are potentially useful, but the potential for the commercial sector is rather more sinister.
    But the growth potential for the blackmail industry is enormous. Especially when it gets easier and easier to put your face on someone else's body.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited April 2019
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
    It is unbelievably glib - as well as poor statistics - simply to dismiss one poll you don’t like purely on the back of performance in one earlier event. Who is to say what changes to method may have been made since then?
    It is also unbelievably complacent of Remainers like you to completely dismiss the Brexit Party and suggest we are heading for a landslide Remain victory in a second referendum
    I don't believe I have done either. All I have done is try to encourage you to think round things a little before filling these forums with your simplistic observations.
    As opposed to your PhD analysis completely ignoring the fact Comres was very wrong before the last referendum so why should we trust them as gospel this time?

    The final EUref Comres in 2016 had Remain 8% ahead

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:



    The implications for the security services acting against organisations like the New IRA are potentially useful, but the potential for the commercial sector is rather more sinister.

    The counter-terrorism game has certainly moved on since the good old days. From 2023 the RAF will have an armed drone (MQ-9B) that they can have over the 6 counties 24/7.
    That's not all that's changed: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/not-in-our-name-rip-lyra-new-graffiti-in-derry-signals-change-1.3868485
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319

    AndyJS said:

    Unsurprisingly really.

    The Euro elections are basically a free hit, neither supporters of Leave or Remain have cause to support the Tories at this stage.

    The local elections may be more interesting in some ways, because they'll be more of a traditional battle between the three main parties, without the Brexit Party and the TIGers.
    Absolutely agree. These elections really matter as they directly impact the provision of services to voters. The EU elections are all a bit theoretical.
    It's ironical that for the first time politicians are really interested in who gets most seats in the Euros, precisely at the moment when it probably won't affect any legislation regardless of who wins.

    The poll variation displayed on this thread is startling, partly down to the Lab/Green split. On the YouGov figures the Green will win several seats. On the ComRes figures a Green vote will probably be almost entirely wasted in terms of seats, as will CHUK, LibDem and UKIP. The BREX figures may reflect whether Farage was getting more coverage when the poll was taken - the previous figures may well reflect the launch coverage.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    We have a government not worthy of the name ... and then we have this

    https://order-order.com/2019/04/23/341262/
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JackJack said:

    That may be the case but the only way parliament will vote for it is in a forced choice between deal and no deal. Just get Raab or whoever to fail to agree to any extension the week before the leave date and parliament will have to choose one way or another. The can kicking doesn't work with an unwilling PM.

    Similarly, I suspect much of the ERG - if the choice genuinely was between Remain and Deal - would choose the Deal.

    It seems highly likely to me that Deal is the clear Condorcet winner, if the choices are No Deal, Deal, and Remain.

    The problem is that the options the HoC believes they have in front of them are: Deal, No Deal, Unicorns, and Remain.

    And, Unicorns keep winning.
    Our biggest problem in a nutshell . The news May is to try unicorning again confirms they never believe the options will be reduced to two. If it could be then we would get an answer one way or another, but with extension and pretend party negotiations they'll never do that.

    And yes I call them pretend negotiations. The issues before our parties are difficult but not complex- they know the options in front of them, and it would not take long to discuss what each is prepared to do and not do, not even to assess potential party support for each option.

    Nigelb said:

    Are all the brexitty members going to leave the Tories? Because that would seriously affect both the leadership outlook (not so no-deal-ish) and the ability to remove TMay (if the headbangers are gone, it's safe to hold an election).

    They might well hang around long enough to make sure the party is beyond repair first.

    No, they're not going to leave the party; they are going to take it over.

    It's entirely possible the vast bulk of conservative membership will vote against their own official candidates next month
    Likely, not just possible. The Tory party is the no deal Brexit party, its MPs just havent caught up with that. Baker and co are not wrong when they claim to speak for the members better than others even though there are holdouts.
    If that is the case, then i am no longer a Tory, and as I cannot ever vote for Corbtn, that leaves a pretty bleak future for this country.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JackJack said:

    That may be the case but the only way parliament will vote for it is in a forced choice between deal and no deal. Just get Raab or whoever to fail to agree to any extension the week before the leave date and parliament will have to choose one way or another. The can kicking doesn't work with an unwilling PM.

    Similarly, I suspect much of the ERG - if the choice genuinely was between Remain and Deal - would choose the Deal.

    It seems highly likely to me that Deal is the clear Condorcet winner, if the choices are No Deal, Deal, and Remain.

    The problem is that the options the HoC believes they have in front of them are: Deal, No Deal, Unicorns, and Remain.

    And, Unicorns keep winning.
    Our biggest problem in a nutshell . The news May is to try unicorning again confirms they never believe the options will be reduced to two. If it could be then we would get an answer one way or another, but with extension and pretend party negotiations they'll never do that.

    And yes I call them pretend negotiations. The issues before our parties are difficult but not complex- they know the options in front of them, and it would not take long to discuss what each is prepared to do and not do, not even to assess potential party support for each option.

    Nigelb said:

    Are all the brexitty members going to leave the Tories? Because that would seriously affect both the leadership outlook (not so no-deal-ish) and the ability to remove TMay (if the headbangers are gone, it's safe to hold an election).

    They might well hang around long enough to make sure the party is beyond repair first.

    No, they're not going to leave the party; they are going to take it over.

    It's entirely possible the vast bulk of conservative membership will vote against their own official candidates next month
    Likely, not just possible. The Tory party is the no deal Brexit party, its MPs just havent caught up with that. Baker and co are not wrong when they claim to speak for the members better than others even though there are holdouts.
    If that is the case, then i am no longer a Tory, and as I cannot ever vote for Corbtn, that leaves a pretty bleak future for this country.
    Yep - we are fucked - great legacy Cameron and May.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    And people for some reason think labour wont be fine in the euros . Even second would be no big deal
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    I see the new IRA think Brexit and hard border already happened.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    They could... But #FRIT springs to mind. :D
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141


    It's ironical that for the first time politicians are really interested in who gets most seats in the Euros, precisely at the moment when it probably won't affect any legislation regardless of who wins.

    They've got a good 5 years, there has to be some chance that Brexit will be cancelled within that time.

    I mean, the PM thinks it's dumb, all the member states think it's dumb, business leaders think it's dumb, trade union leaders think it's dumb, it's only happening because the voters thought it was clever, but per available polling, the voters now also think it's dumb. Added to which, nobody knows how to do it.

    I know indefinite Gimp Remain is the path of least resistance, but as a prolonged state of affairs it's also *extremely* dumb, no matter what you think of brexit.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
    It is unbelievably glib - as well as poor statistics - simply to dismiss one poll you don’t like purely on the back of performance in one earlier event. Who is to say what changes to method may have been made since then?
    It is also unbelievably complacent of Remainers like you to completely dismiss the Brexit Party and suggest we are heading for a landslide Remain victory in a second referendum
    I am not complacent, but these are certainly not easy elections to poll for. Turnout and certainty to vote have no real precedent and make massive assumptions that render the raw data to pieces.

    Then there is the tactical element, so in the East Midlands I am torn between my party, the Greens (best placed to take a Remain seat) and Labour, who have put up decent candidates and under Dehondt best placed to kick the Tories and UKIP in the arse.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    And people for some reason think labour wont be fine in the euros . Even second would be no big deal
    Ed Miliband came second in the 2014 Euros behind UKIP, fat lot of good it did him in 2015
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    But you point out the problem with the strategy. We still have David Davis.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
    Fundamentally Google and Amazon are natural monopolies. As such they should be regulated like utilities and only allowed a limited return on capital.

    (As an aside I saw my 21 year old cousin over the weekend. He tells me that none of the 18 year olds he knows are on Facebook. FWIW)
  • Options
    StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
    I would walk straight out of any shop that did that and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in finding it unacceptable. It wouldn’t take long for retailers to get the message.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    If they said that they are breaking the law.

    It would be predatory pricing
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Morning all :)

    Boycotting elections is part of the political game - when Zac Goldsmith resigned the Conservative Party and vowed to stand as an Independent in Richmond Park, the Conservatives opted not to put up a candidate against him. This enabled Conservative activists to work for Goldsmith without any issue since, as I understand it, if your Party isn't standing in an election, as an activist you are free to work for another candidate if you so wish.

    I'm sure this May there will be many local examples of Parties not contesting seats against certain Independents.

    In the EU Referendum, the official position of the Conservative Party was one of neutrality which meant that while the Conservative PM backed REMAIN it was perfectly possible for Conservative MPs and activists to support LEAVE as they weren't actively working against their own party which is a hanging offence in all parties.

    Boycotting the EU elections would free up Conservative members and activists to campaign for the Brexit Party but would mean no Conservative MEPs elected. As I understand it, even voting against the candidates of your party is awkward if you are a member or activist but of course that can never be proved. If, however, as a Conservative activist you publicly work for the candidates of another party, I'd have thought that would warrant suspension if not expulsion.

    Choosing not to work for your own party's candidates in a given election on the other hand may disappoint the Party at national or even local level but it's your time and energy and if you don't want to that's up to you.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    If they said that they are breaking the law.

    It would be predatory pricing
    It might be against the law, but it doesn't help you when they have much more deeper pockets for lawyers than you do.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited April 2019
    Streeter said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
    I would walk straight out of any shop that did that and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in finding it unacceptable. It wouldn’t take long for retailers to get the message.
    What message? The supermarket already knows what you buy, because you stick all your shopping in the same trolley. Then you pay by card so they know you are you. If you use a loyalty points card, they know your address as well but that is the least important part.

    ETA: they might even know your car thanks to anpr in the supermarket car park. I don't know if anyone goes to the trouble of correlating customers with car registration numbers but they could.

    But yes, saying "Welcome back Steve" would be too in-your-face for most customers!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Streeter said:

    I would walk straight out of any shop that did that and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in finding it unacceptable. It wouldn’t take long for retailers to get the message.

    High Street retailers have other issues. The number of people walking into physical shops is not growing rapidly
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Someone got very excited last night about Pete Buttigieg. He got backed as low as 4.6 for the Democrat nomination.
  • Options

    Someone got very excited last night about Pete Buttigieg. He got backed as low as 4.6 for the Democrat nomination.

    A pretty obvious lay then.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    HYUFD said:


    Ed Miliband came second in the 2014 Euros behind UKIP, fat lot of good it did him in 2015

    While in 2009 the Conservatives finished 12 points ahead of Labour which would have guaranteed a majority in 2010.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319
    Streeter said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
    I would walk straight out of any shop that did that and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in finding it unacceptable. It wouldn’t take long for retailers to get the message.
    It's a subtle balance, isn't it? I really like Eritrean food and I'd be quite pleased to get a text saying "You are just 500 metres from an Eritrean restaurant at High Road 43." Similarly I don't mind getting a moderate amount of spam on computer games as I'm interested in what's coming out. But personalising is intrusive in a very American way, like the staff in restaurants who say ,"Hi, I'm Cindy, and I'm gonna make sure you have a great time today!" It's the false chumminess that I react against, not the relevant information.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Someone got very excited last night about Pete Buttigieg. He got backed as low as 4.6 for the Democrat nomination.

    A pretty obvious lay then.
    As it happens, I managed to lay all I wanted at 5.3. The usual mixed emotion about having got a good price and wishing I'd got the very best one.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, sounds like an interesting answer.

    Also, Vanilla decided to sign me out. Lovely.

    We are just starved of politicians who are able to articulate policy in a way that people can get. So many switch people off. From the same article:

    "Warren explained it clearly by using a hypothetical brand called “Pet Pillows” selling their doggie goods on Amazon:

    Every time you go to buy something, they get your information and they aggregate it with the other information they had about you. Every time you come to sell something, they get information. And then they see that, whoa, over there it looks like Pet Pillows is starting to make a big profit. Huh, says Amazon. I know what we’ll do. Let’s jump in front of Pet Pillows and do “Amazon pet pillows” and move Pet Pillows from the front page back to page 16. And the consequence is that Amazon, because of its superior information, can come in and knock out all of the [competition] ...

    Here’s what we know: As a consequence of this ... the area around these giants are referred to by venture capitalists, investors, as the “dead zone” — because it means you try to start up a business, you just run the risk that Amazon steps in front of you or Google steps in front of you or they buy you out before you have a chance to get started."

    Last year the investments our pension funds had in these tech giants went up 20%. 20% growth in the largest companies in the world. That is either the biggest bubble of all time or recognition of the power of monopoly. It needs to be stopped.
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    If they said that they are breaking the law.

    It would be predatory pricing
    It might be against the law, but it doesn't help you when they have much more deeper pockets for lawyers than you do.
    That’s why I’d be surprised if they said it - it would be black and white evidence. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did it
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Meanwhile last month's man Beto O'Rourke was last matched at 25.

    Anyone care to speculate on who next month's flavour of the month might be?
  • Options
    It's possible for the Conservative Party to do ok at the Locals if voters decide to vote on local issues and the quality of candidates rather than for tribal reasons.

    I've often thought this is the way it should be. You shouldn't vote in the locals on the performance of the Westminster bunch; it makes no sense and encourages poor local government. The practical problem is that it's difficult for the ordinary Joe and Joanna to assess just how well his and her local Council is performing, and which if any of the Councillors are worth supporting regardless of Party.

    I will be voting in Tewkesbury's Council Elections for the first time in May. The Council is pretty much solid Tory and my general impression is that it does a decent job. I am intrigued to note that two of the Candidates that stood and won last time as Conservatives are standing as Independents this time round and opposing the official Blue Rosettes.

    No, I don't know what the back story is but will do some research. Meanwhile, if anyone here can help.....
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Meanwhile last month's man Beto O'Rourke was last matched at 25.

    Anyone care to speculate on who next month's flavour of the month might be?

    I think you’re writing off Pete too early. I expect the primaries to turn into a contest between Bernie and a moderate. Assuming Biden self-destructs, I don’t see which of the moderates is more appealing.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boy

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    Comres had Remain ahead even on eve of referendum.

    Yougov has the Brexit Party ahead and was very accurate in the 2014 European Parliament elections

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118642347984683009?s=20
    It is unbelievably glib - as well as poor statistics - simply to dismiss one poll you don’t like purely on the back of performance in one earlier event. Who is to say what changes to method may have been made since then?
    It is also unbelievably complacent of Remainers like you to completely dismiss the Brexit Party and suggest we are heading for a landslide Remain victory in a second referendum
    I don't believe I have done either. All I have done is try to encourage you to think round things a little before filling these forums with your simplistic observations.
    As opposed to your PhD analysis completely ignoring the fact Comres was very wrong before the last referendum so why should we trust them as gospel this time?

    The final EUref Comres in 2016 had Remain 8% ahead

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
    As I said, it is idiotic to promote or dismiss a polling company because of one incidence of past performance. ComRes was the closest of the BPO companies for GE2015, which would equally be no reason to big up its latest findings. Do try to find a sounder basis for your commentary.
  • Options

    Someone got very excited last night about Pete Buttigieg. He got backed as low as 4.6 for the Democrat nomination.

    A pretty obvious lay then.
    As it happens, I managed to lay all I wanted at 5.3. The usual mixed emotion about having got a good price and wishing I'd got the very best one.
    Nobody ever buys at the bottom, or sells at the top. You should know that, Alastair.

    (Why is Vanilla logging me out each time I post?)
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319



    It's a subtle balance, isn't it? I really like Eritrean food and I'd be quite pleased to get a text saying "You are just 500 metres from an Eritrean restaurant at High Road 43." Similarly I don't mind getting a moderate amount of spam on computer games as I'm interested in what's coming out. But personalising is intrusive in a very American way, like the staff in restaurants who say ,"Hi, I'm Cindy, and I'm gonna make sure you have a great time today!" It's the false chumminess that I react against, not the relevant information.

    Oh, and more relevantly to here, I hate those political letters that are mock-personalised. "Nick, it's really important to vote next Thursday. We know you want to stop the Tories, Nick, and this is your chance to do it." Do they think we're idiots that we don't know about mail merge?
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Meanwhile last month's man Beto O'Rourke was last matched at 25.

    Anyone care to speculate on who next month's flavour of the month might be?

    It's a stretch, but what about Jay Inslee?

    He's standing explicitly on a single-issue campaign on climate change, hoping to receive enough donations to make the debates and try to put climate change higher up the political agenda. Suppose the Extinction Rebellion protests were to spread to the US in a major way there would be a wave for someone to ride.
  • Options
    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    Streeter said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
    I would walk straight out of any shop that did that and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in finding it unacceptable. It wouldn’t take long for retailers to get the message.
    It's a subtle balance, isn't it? I really like Eritrean food and I'd be quite pleased to get a text saying "You are just 500 metres from an Eritrean restaurant at High Road 43." Similarly I don't mind getting a moderate amount of spam on computer games as I'm interested in what's coming out. But personalising is intrusive in a very American way, like the staff in restaurants who say ,"Hi, I'm Cindy, and I'm gonna make sure you have a great time today!" It's the false chumminess that I react against, not the relevant information.
    Or the London hotel receptionist turning to one’s wife and saying “we have put a feather pillow on your side of the bed, as you asked for when you both checked in to our Paris hotel last week...” Which is a shame as one’s wife wasn’t with you in Paris.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    RoyalBlue said:

    Meanwhile last month's man Beto O'Rourke was last matched at 25.

    Anyone care to speculate on who next month's flavour of the month might be?

    I think you’re writing off Pete too early. I expect the primaries to turn into a contest between Bernie and a moderate. Assuming Biden self-destructs, I don’t see which of the moderates is more appealing.
    I'm not writing him off. I just think his price is too short. And while I'm not a backer of Joe Biden either, you can't just assume he'll self-destruct.

    My general strategy on races of this type is to lay at short prices rather than back (I may make exceptions for very long-priced candidates with possibilities).
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1120597390094999553/photo/1

    I suspect pride is going to come before a fall for TIG.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1120597390094999553/photo/1

    I suspect pride is going to come before a fall for TIG.

    I don't understand why at the Euro's new parties can't be run alongside the EP groupings??

    this is idiotic.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Could the Conservatives boycott the European elections? Just not put up any candidates. It would save a sack of cash, avoid humiliation, and blunt any Farage wins. Labour did this in David Davis's by-election.

    Boycotts are always difficult. Parties are set up to contest elections, and this principal purpose is written into their constitutions. And while we enjoy the spectacle and uncertainty, there are real people with (*possibly) real jobs and incomes at stake, and forcing someone into involuntary retirement is a difficult thing to be doing (at Westminster the financial leaving terms are better if you are defeated at election - no idea whether this applies in Brussels or not).

    In practice doing so would be extremely problematic, and potentially open to challenge, before you get to the embarassment and PR risk.
    ... and if our Euro MPs end up staying for months or years it removes a Tory voice in the EU.
    So what? And there is not going to be much of a Tory voice anyway. They are going to be annihilated.
    And it is not just Leavers that will annihilate them:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1118869993259786240?s=19

    And this poll puts the Faragists in 3rd, with another swing to Remain favouring parties.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1118859517620572163?s=19
    And people for some reason think labour wont be fine in the euros . Even second would be no big deal
    Ed Miliband came second in the 2014 Euros behind UKIP, fat lot of good it did him in 2015
    I didn't say I thought they would top the GE as a result. I think that for separate reasons.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954

    Meanwhile last month's man Beto O'Rourke was last matched at 25.

    Anyone care to speculate on who next month's flavour of the month might be?

    Time to have a small interest? Is his meh-ness a blip or the true Beto?
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Also if TIG fails, then thats a crying shame for democracy in this country. The stranglehold of both labour and the tories need to be smashed so new ideas and policies and people can come through.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152



    It's a subtle balance, isn't it? I really like Eritrean food and I'd be quite pleased to get a text saying "You are just 500 metres from an Eritrean restaurant at High Road 43." Similarly I don't mind getting a moderate amount of spam on computer games as I'm interested in what's coming out. But personalising is intrusive in a very American way, like the staff in restaurants who say ,"Hi, I'm Cindy, and I'm gonna make sure you have a great time today!" It's the false chumminess that I react against, not the relevant information.

    Oh, and more relevantly to here, I hate those political letters that are mock-personalised. "Nick, it's really important to vote next Thursday. We know you want to stop the Tories, Nick, and this is your chance to do it." Do they think we're idiots that we don't know about mail merge?
    I hate anything mock-personalised from anyone who does not actually know me. Thank goodness for spam folders. The recent change in data law enabled a big clean up of my email when I unsubscribed from loads of stuff. Very refreshing.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822

    It's possible for the Conservative Party to do ok at the Locals if voters decide to vote on local issues and the quality of candidates rather than for tribal reasons.

    I've often thought this is the way it should be. You shouldn't vote in the locals on the performance of the Westminster bunch; it makes no sense and encourages poor local government. The practical problem is that it's difficult for the ordinary Joe and Joanna to assess just how well his and her local Council is performing, and which if any of the Councillors are worth supporting regardless of Party.

    Come on, seriously? It's the only opportunity voters have between elections to register their view on the progress or otherwise of any Government. Yes it's tough on the local councillors but that's politics and I imagine were the Conservatives 20 points ahead there'd be plenty on here urging people to back the Government.

    As to "how well the local Council is performing", everyone has their standards and there's no point comparing your Council with the Council next door because, short of moving house, you can't change the Council that provides your service though you can change its leadership and policy direction.

    In any case, Council performance is in the eye of the beholder and what's important to you. Clean streets may matter more to you than adequate care for the elderly or it may not.

    I am sure there will be plenty of Councillors who will blame their defeat on "national factors" and it is unfair sometimes but perhaps it's also a question of the divergence of importance between what the local council does and what the national Government does.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    Guardian rolling blog says it all:

    "Good morning. I hope you all had a good Easter. And welcome back to the Brexit Groundhog Day vortex of doom."
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    Streeter said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:
    I know an entrepreneur in just that position with a very innovative start up. Amazon offered to buy him out at a knockdown price, telling him that they would set up their own version and under cut him if he refused. It really is classic monopoly bullying. He has held out so far though.

    It gets much more sinister once the facial recognition software starts to work properly. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is going to look pretty insignificant next to this.

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf19b956-60a2-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
    Can't read that. What is the article called?
    Who’s using your face? The ugly truth about facial recognition
    Thanks. Minority Report had advertising boards in shops that welcomed you by name (courtesy of the great Philip K Dick of course). Sounds like it is not far off.
    I would walk straight out of any shop that did that and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in finding it unacceptable. It wouldn’t take long for retailers to get the message.
    It's a subtle balance, isn't it? I really like Eritrean food and I'd be quite pleased to get a text saying "You are just 500 metres from an Eritrean restaurant at High Road 43." Similarly I don't mind getting a moderate amount of spam on computer games as I'm interested in what's coming out. But personalising is intrusive in a very American way, like the staff in restaurants who say ,"Hi, I'm Cindy, and I'm gonna make sure you have a great time today!" It's the false chumminess that I react against, not the relevant information.
    Same here, but for Eritrean food. Not being a metropolitan elite I've never had the opportunity to sample it ;)
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Also if TIG fails, then thats a crying shame for democracy in this country. The stranglehold of both labour and the tories need to be smashed so new ideas and policies and people can come through.

    Well it’s unlikely to come from a party with no new ideas or policies is it?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789

    It's possible for the Conservative Party to do ok at the Locals if voters decide to vote on local issues and the quality of candidates rather than for tribal reasons.

    I've often thought this is the way it should be. You shouldn't vote in the locals on the performance of the Westminster bunch; it makes no sense and encourages poor local government. The practical problem is that it's difficult for the ordinary Joe and Joanna to assess just how well his and her local Council is performing, and which if any of the Councillors are worth supporting regardless of Party.

    I will be voting in Tewkesbury's Council Elections for the first time in May. The Council is pretty much solid Tory and my general impression is that it does a decent job. I am intrigued to note that two of the Candidates that stood and won last time as Conservatives are standing as Independents this time round and opposing the official Blue Rosettes.

    No, I don't know what the back story is but will do some research. Meanwhile, if anyone here can help.....

    I'd expect the locals to be 2012-14 level of bad for the Conservatives , not 1993-96. The Conservatives' ratings are dire, but so too are their opponents'
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    The democratic primaries should be fun - recalling past Republican ones pretty much everyone had their brief moments as front runner.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Also if TIG fails, then thats a crying shame for democracy in this country. The stranglehold of both labour and the tories need to be smashed so new ideas and policies and people can come through.

    Well it’s unlikely to come from a party with no new ideas or policies is it?
    That does need time. But they can't be a one-policy thing.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789

    https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1120597390094999553/photo/1

    I suspect pride is going to come before a fall for TIG.

    It's good to see that incompetence and division are not restricted to my own side.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Meanwhile last month's man Beto O'Rourke was last matched at 25.

    Anyone care to speculate on who next month's flavour of the month might be?

    Time to have a small interest? Is his meh-ness a blip or the true Beto?
    Possibly. He's not done anything awful, he's just suffered by comparison. He seems very bland though. You also don't get a second chance to make a first impression.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    stodge said:

    I am sure there will be plenty of Councillors who will blame their defeat on "national factors" and it is unfair sometimes

    It is, but on the other hand I've never heard a local councillor say "frankly we've been a bit shit recently but we did ok in the elections because our party is doing so well nationally", so my sympathy for them on that point is limited.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    Also if TIG fails, then thats a crying shame for democracy in this country. The stranglehold of both labour and the tories need to be smashed so new ideas and policies and people can come through.

    Well it’s unlikely to come from a party with no new ideas or policies is it?
    That does need time. But they can't be a one-policy thing.
    In practice at the moment the only party who arent a one policy party are labour! And only then because Corbyn of all people is not obsessed with Brexit.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kle4 said:

    The democratic primaries should be fun - recalling past Republican ones pretty much everyone had their brief moments as front runner.

    A perfect summation of my betting strategy.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    I would say that it is not impossible that just about the entire existing house of commons MPs will be swept aside when a GE is finally called, judging by these focus group findings.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/23/30-years-research-never-seen-public-despondent-politics/
This discussion has been closed.