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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What we are seeing in the British politics at the moment could

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited May 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What we are seeing in the British politics at the moment could be “The New Normal”

So, here we are, losses for both main parties, laceratingly large for the Tories, some in surprising places, the Lib Dems and the Greens cock-a-hoop, the NOTA party making a fine showing and the inevitable calls for a change of leadership  – with May more at risk, what with being heckled in Wales and facing an EGM in June. (Perhaps Trump could orchestrate proceedings during his forthcoming visit. He has experience in saying “You’re fired!” after all – with his British Mini-Me already copying his “Lock her up!” slogan – and it may be the only act which might give him some measure of popularity in Britain).  Party spokesmen come out with their prepared responses.  “We must do Brexit” they claim, without even pausing to wonder whether an increased vote for explicitly Remain parties and Independents might suggest wider, different concerns.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,864
    Does Theresa May have a plan B for the European elections in a couple of weeks?

    Facing an unparalleled drubbing, plan A is to rush through a customs union deal with Labour and cancel the elections. What is plan B?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,158
    Thanks for the header, cyclefree :)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 21,847
    Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 21,847

    Does Theresa May have a plan B for the European elections in a couple of weeks?



    Facing an unparalleled drubbing, plan A is to rush through a customs union deal with Labour and cancel the elections. What is plan B?

    Resign?

    It’s clear she’s never had any Plan B to her WA, even though it’s been rejected three times so far. Stubbornly presenting the same document again still isn’t going to get past MPs.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 1,631
    edited May 6
    Ceasefire agreed between Israel and Hamas thankfully.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 8,566
    > @DecrepitJohnL said:
    > Does Theresa May have a plan B for the European elections in a couple of weeks?
    >
    > Facing an unparalleled drubbing, plan A is to rush through a customs union deal with Labour and cancel the elections. What is plan B?

    The Euro elections will not be cancelled even in the event of the WA being passed, because it also has to pass the European Parliament, and that won't meet again until July. May and the Tories are just going to have to suck it up.

    A good header @Cyclefree.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 494
    > @Sandpit said:
    > Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.

    I also think iit is a great piece. One point I would add is that the union is being trashed for so called democracy. The issues of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are being not just ignored but derided.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 519
    Good piece,thanks.
    I rarely comment, but, for the first time ever I voted Lib dem, not because I like their ideas or policy etc, it was a pure protest vote.
    Both major parties seem to be saying "We get it", must finish brexit. The message I and many others were sending is "Remain".
    Hopefully I will never vote Lib dem again, I could never vote Green, even though I spent most of my working life developing innovative recycling, and alternative energy schemes.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Good morning, everyone.

    I agree that this will be the state of play for quite some time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    > @jayfdee said:
    > Good piece,thanks.
    > I rarely comment, but, for the first time ever I voted Lib dem, not because I like their ideas or policy etc, it was a pure protest vote.
    > Both major parties seem to be saying "We get it", must finish brexit. The message I and many others were sending is "Remain".
    > Hopefully I will never vote Lib dem again, I could never vote Green, even though I spent most of my working life developing innovative recycling, and alternative energy schemes.

    Sounds to me like you need to vote LibDem at least once again?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,126
    edited May 6
    ..
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    > @hamiltonace said:
    > > @Sandpit said:
    > > Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.
    >
    > I also think iit is a great piece. One point I would add is that the union is being trashed for so called democracy. The issues of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are being not just ignored but derided.


    When you take away putting the interests of the economy and of the Union first and, well, being conservative, what do they have left?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    > @DecrepitJohnL said:
    > Does Theresa May have a plan B for the European elections in a couple of weeks?
    >
    > Facing an unparalleled drubbing, plan A is to rush through a customs union deal with Labour and cancel the elections. What is plan B?


    A week or two back, plan B appeared to be to force MPs to express a preference for some option (probably the very same CU proposal) through a preference-voted options exercise, and then hope that having voted for it in that there would be sufficient pressure on a majority to see it through into the Bill.

    At one point the hints were that this options exercise would happen quickly. Either the government has gone cool on the idea or they really do hope the discussions with Corbyn are about to land a result.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,710
    Great article Cyclefree - thank you.

    I wonder if GE17 was the last great shout for the duopoly? Both parties are fracturing both ideologically (Methodism vs Marxism and dogmatism vs pragmatism) and geographically (What cuts it in the educated metropolitan groups doesn't in the poorer provincial ones - and vice versa, and all those young professionals driven out of London to South East England by property prices won't be voting Tory anytime soon) - so perhaps this is indeed 'the new normal' - Brexit was there 'at the scene of the crime' - but this has been coming down the tracks a while.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,003
    > @CarlottaVance said:
    > Great article Cyclefree - thank you.
    >
    > I wonder if GE17 was the last great shout for the duopoly? Both parties are fracturing both ideologically (Methodism vs Marxism and dogmatism vs pragmatism) and geographically (What cuts it in the educated metropolitan groups doesn't in the poorer provincial ones - and vice versa, and all those young professionals driven out of London to South East England by property prices won't be voting Tory anytime soon) - so perhaps this is indeed 'the new normal' - Brexit was there 'at the scene of the crime' - but this has been coming down the tracks a while.

    The duopoly is an artifact of FPTP, so unless you have a route to change that, the best you can hope for is probably flipping one or both of the parties so you end up with a different duopoly.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 23,819
    An excellent header Cyclefree. I agree with every word you have said
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,515
    Clearly and eloquently set out, CF Once we went down the Brexit path of false assumptions, everything described here was inevitable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,519
    edited May 6
    IanB2 said:

    > @hamiltonace said:

    > > @Sandpit said:

    > > Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.

    >

    > I also think iit is a great piece. One point I would add is that the union is being trashed for so called democracy. The issues of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are being not just ignored but derided.





    When you take away putting the interests of the economy and of the Union first and, well, being conservative, what do they have left?

    Brexit is not a conservative project.
    It is a radical pursuit of an abstract - sovereignty - without any apparent coherent thought about the consequences, let alone planning for the nation’s future.

    And yes, an excellent header. I could tell it was a Cyclefree article from the first paragraph.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,519
    edited May 6

    If we’re talking about the board, then who knows ? They appear to have existed in a state of blissful ignorance when it comes to safety matters.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/05/06/safety-was-just-given-inside-boeings-boardroom-amid-max-crisis/
    Some corporate boards, such as JetBlue and Dow Chemical, mandate safety oversight in their bylaws, seeing it as a part of their duty to manage risks. Boeing’s corporate governance principles do not mention the word “safety,” and its board does not include any experts in airplane safety....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    edited May 6
    > @edmundintokyo said:
    > > @CarlottaVance said:
    > > Great article Cyclefree - thank you.
    > >
    > > I wonder if GE17 was the last great shout for the duopoly? Both parties are fracturing both ideologically (Methodism vs Marxism and dogmatism vs pragmatism) and geographically (What cuts it in the educated metropolitan groups doesn't in the poorer provincial ones - and vice versa, and all those young professionals driven out of London to South East England by property prices won't be voting Tory anytime soon) - so perhaps this is indeed 'the new normal' - Brexit was there 'at the scene of the crime' - but this has been coming down the tracks a while.
    >
    > The duopoly is an artifact of FPTP, so unless you have a route to change that, the best you can hope for is probably flipping one or both of the parties so you end up with a different duopoly.

    FPTnP doesn’t necessitate a two-party system (although arguably it only really ‘works’, even on its own terms, if there is one) - the party system we have was driven by class politics with the class-driver of voting behaviour being both predominant across the country and geographically variable. Where this no longer applies - the notable exceptions being the regionally-driven voting behaviour that overrode class to deliver most of the South West to the LibDems 1997-05 and most of Scotland to the SNP since 2015 - other parties can gain a foothold.

    The possibly emerging culturally driven divide (although one could argue age is in fact the stronger driver) also has two camps. Whether this will settle into the new basis of an American style two-party system remains to be seen. To do so it would need to replace politics based on class (or economic self-interest) almost entirely, which right now seems unlikely. Whereas you could almost see most of the remainers in some sort of centralist social Democratic Party, the challenge is for the leavers who clearly divide into right-wing/libertarian and left-wing socialist camps, which aren’t going to co-exist in any future broad tent party.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 21,690
    IanB2 said:

    > @edmundintokyo said:

    > > @CarlottaVance said:

    > > Great article Cyclefree - thank you.

    > >

    > > I wonder if GE17 was the last great shout for the duopoly? Both parties are fracturing both ideologically (Methodism vs Marxism and dogmatism vs pragmatism) and geographically (What cuts it in the educated metropolitan groups doesn't in the poorer provincial ones - and vice versa, and all those young professionals driven out of London to South East England by property prices won't be voting Tory anytime soon) - so perhaps this is indeed 'the new normal' - Brexit was there 'at the scene of the crime' - but this has been coming down the tracks a while.

    >

    > The duopoly is an artifact of FPTP, so unless you have a route to change that, the best you can hope for is probably flipping one or both of the parties so you end up with a different duopoly.



    FPTnP doesn’t necessitate a two-party system (although arguably it only really ‘works’, even on its own terms, if there is one) - the party system we have was driven by class politics with the class-driver of voting behaviour being both predominant across the country and geographically variable. Where this no longer applies - the notable exceptions being the regionally-driven voting behaviour that overrode class to deliver most of the South West to the LibDems 1997-05 most of Scotland to the SNP since 2015.



    The possibly emerging culturally driven divide (although one could argue age is in fact the stronger driver) also has two camps. Whether this will settle into the new basis of an American style two-party system remains to be seen. To do so it would need to replace politics based on class (or economic self-interest) almost entirely, which right now seems unlikely.

    It will soon settle back to being contest between mutt and Jeff, too many dumplings roaming the streets for anything sensible to happen in the UK.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 27,947
    Nigelb said:

    Brexit is not a conservative project.
    It is a radical pursuit of an abstract - sovereignty - without any apparent coherent thought about the consequences, let alone planning for the nation’s future.

    Plot twist: it turns out that pooling sovereignty with like-minded neighbours is a better way of preserving it than hoarding it in the cellar.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    > @malcolmg said:
    > > @edmundintokyo said:
    >
    > > > @CarlottaVance said:
    >
    > > > Great article Cyclefree - thank you.
    >
    > > >
    >
    > > > I wonder if GE17 was the last great shout for the duopoly? Both parties are fracturing both ideologically (Methodism vs Marxism and dogmatism vs pragmatism) and geographically (What cuts it in the educated metropolitan groups doesn't in the poorer provincial ones - and vice versa, and all those young professionals driven out of London to South East England by property prices won't be voting Tory anytime soon) - so perhaps this is indeed 'the new normal' - Brexit was there 'at the scene of the crime' - but this has been coming down the tracks a while.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > The duopoly is an artifact of FPTP, so unless you have a route to change that, the best you can hope for is probably flipping one or both of the parties so you end up with a different duopoly.
    >
    >
    >
    > FPTnP doesn’t necessitate a two-party system (although arguably it only really ‘works’, even on its own terms, if there is one) - the party system we have was driven by class politics with the class-driver of voting behaviour being both predominant across the country and geographically variable. Where this no longer applies - the notable exceptions being the regionally-driven voting behaviour that overrode class to deliver most of the South West to the LibDems 1997-05 most of Scotland to the SNP since 2015.
    >
    >
    >
    > The possibly emerging culturally driven divide (although one could argue age is in fact the stronger driver) also has two camps. Whether this will settle into the new basis of an American style two-party system remains to be seen. To do so it would need to replace politics based on class (or economic self-interest) almost entirely, which right now seems unlikely.
    >
    > It will soon settle back to being contest between mutt and Jeff, too many dumplings roaming the streets for anything sensible to happen in the UK.

    The challenge is to break the system even temporarily in order to change it. CUK looks heading for failure until or unless one of the main parties breaks (still quite possible). Or there is HY’s great white hope.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    edited May 6
    > @Nigelb said:
    > > @hamiltonace said:
    >
    > > > @Sandpit said:
    >
    > > > Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > I also think iit is a great piece. One point I would add is that the union is being trashed for so called democracy. The issues of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are being not just ignored but derided.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > When you take away putting the interests of the economy and of the Union first and, well, being conservative, what do they have left?
    >
    > Brexit is not a conservative project.
    > It is a radical pursuit of an abstract - sovereignty - without any apparent coherent thought about the consequences, let alone planning for the nation’s future.
    >
    > And yes, an excellent header. I could tell it was a Cyclefree article from the first paragraph.


    Yes, that was my point. Brexit has separated Conservatives from their senses, in so many ways. The trap is that something that appears superficially conservative, ‘merely’ seeking to restore an earlier era, is in its contemporary context actually a highly radical and disruptive break with the established order, culture and institutional framework.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,589
    edited May 6
    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > An excellent header Cyclefree. I agree with every word you have said

    +1
  • mattmatt Posts: 2,805

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.

    Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,519

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.

  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 2,209
    matt said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.

    Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.

    It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.

    The ship has sailed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. B, indeed, if that customs union and backstop nonsense goes ahead.

    Mr. Matt, we'll be able to determine our own domestic laws rather than have them imposed by the EU, and thus able to hold the political decision-makers to account directly, rather than have MPs point to the EU as a scapegoat (which is another reason that scepticism flourished).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,519

    matt said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.

    Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.

    It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.

    The ship has sailed.
    Should it ?
    And which ship is that ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,519

    Mr. B, indeed, if that customs union and backstop nonsense goes ahead.

    And in spades, if we leave without a deal.
    We’ll find out what it’s like to negotiate from a real position of weakness.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 27,947

    Mr. Matt, we'll be able to determine our own domestic laws rather than have them imposed by the EU, and thus able to hold the political decision-makers to account directly, rather than have MPs point to the EU as a scapegoat (which is another reason that scepticism flourished).

    If you believe that, just listen to the way Trump says that the EU and China are "taking advantage" of the US. Being outside the EU will not prevent the EU being used as a scapegoat. Indeed the increased awareness of our weaker position will probably encourage it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,891

    Mr. B, indeed, if that customs union and backstop nonsense goes ahead.

    Mr. Matt, we'll be able to determine our own domestic laws rather than have them imposed by the EU, and thus able to hold the political decision-makers to account directly, rather than have MPs point to the EU as a scapegoat (which is another reason that scepticism flourished).

    Which domestic laws have been imposed against our will by the EU?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. B, it's almost as if decades of throwing power to the EU without recourse to the electorate, even when a referendum was promised, whilst blaming the EU for woes, making sceptical noises in opposition yet being relentlessly pro-EU in office, was a stupid way for the political class to behave.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,519

    Mr. B, it's almost as if decades of throwing power to the EU without recourse to the electorate, even when a referendum was promised, whilst blaming the EU for woes, making sceptical noises in opposition yet being relentlessly pro-EU in office, was a stupid way for the political class to behave.

    And Brexit a yet more stupid reaction to that.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,515
    It's much easier to predict a mess than to get out of it. So where do we go from here? You can't deal with a problem until you accept you have it. To move forward we need to accept Brexit has failed, even if we disagree on the causes of the failure. Those many delusions you refer to will fall away, as they need to do. Then I think those trying to make the international order work need to argue the case from first principles. It won't be pretty, easy or quick.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 277
    > @brokenwheel said:
    > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    >
    > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    >
    > It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.
    >
    > Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    >
    > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    >
    > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    >
    >
    > As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.
    >
    >
    >
    > It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.
    >
    > The ship has sailed.

    I think this is self pitying nonsense... If we Remain it is pretty obvious that a lot of things have to change, but at least we are not committing economic hara-kiri.

    We might slink about like a slapped cat, or we could re-energize ourselves and start to inject some enthusiasm into the process... and that is only our call to make. Listening to the little Englanders who want the UK to break up has been depressing and maddening. This kind of stupidity deserves nothing but a Bronx cheer.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,471
    Mr Walker,

    "Which domestic laws have been imposed against our will by the EU?"

    The EU produce Directives and Regulations. Although Directives need to be made into British regulations, European Regulations are already law in the UK.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    > @Cicero said:
    > > @brokenwheel said:
    > > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    > >
    > > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    > >
    > > It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.
    > >
    > > Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    > >
    > > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    > >
    > > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    > >
    > >
    > > As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.
    > >
    > > The ship has sailed.
    >
    > I think this is self pitying nonsense... If we Remain it is pretty obvious that a lot of things have to change, but at least we are not committing economic hara-kiri.
    >
    > We might slink about like a slapped cat, or we could re-energize ourselves and start to inject some enthusiasm into the process... and that is only our call to make. Listening to the little Englanders who want the UK to break up has been depressing and maddening. This kind of stupidity deserves nothing but a Bronx cheer.

    The dream scenario is that the Conservatives are consigned to the WPB along with Brexit, and somehow we get political reform and some kind of sensible social democratic government willing to re-engage more positively with our continental partners.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 27,947
    Cicero said:

    We might slink about like a slapped cat, or we could re-energize ourselves and start to inject some enthusiasm into the process... and that is only our call to make. Listening to the little Englanders who want the UK to break up has been depressing and maddening. This kind of stupidity deserves nothing but a Bronx cheer.

    People who don't want the UK to break up need to come up with a coherent plan for constitutional reform pretty quickly.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 6,797

    matt said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.

    Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.

    It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.

    The ship has sailed.

    matt said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.

    Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Glenn, ha.

    The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.

    As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.

    It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.

    The ship has sailed.


    You what? We would retain every power and right conferred on each and every member by the EU constitution, and would continue to enjoy the further soft power we gain from our relative economic and military pre eminence. What ship has sailed, and where to? Good metaphors should clarify rather than obfuscate.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. Walker, I don't believe the UK would've gone down the nonsensical VAT route the EU did with the #VATmess. Also, I raised accountability. The UK political class is, idiotically, in favour of Articles 11 and 13, but outside the EU it would at least be possible to support a party that wants to get rid of those. Inside the EU, it's simply not possible.

    But the key issue is that the EU integrates ever more, and we need to decide whether we wish to be an independent, self-governing nation, or a state within a wider EU. And for those claiming that's a fantasy, much the same was said only a few years ago about the EU army.

    Mr. Glenn, possibly, from some, but we would be able to hold those who determine our domestic laws to account, which we cannot now.

    Mr. B, what's the alternative? The EU cannot be reformed. It seeks only to accrue power to the centre, away from the accountable democracies of nation-states. If you're in favour of a United States of Europe, that's fine. If you're not, what realistic alternative is there to leaving?

    If our political class had not created a political centre-ground that was solidly pro-EU yet had little common ground with the electorate, we'd be in a better position, having certainly held a referendum on Lisbon (if not earlier). Instead they make anti-EU noises in opposition and act quite differently in office, gleefully throwing away vetoes and reneging upon manifesto pledges to do it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 1,631
    edited May 6
    CD13 said:

    The EU produce Directives and Regulations. Although Directives need to be made into British regulations, European Regulations are already law in the UK.

    and which of those are against our will?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 43,472
    This piece does tie into one I had sketched out, although with different emphasis, ultimately being that some actions are so epochal and transformative that you cannot truly go back to the way things were. That we might reverse plenty of what we have done or attempted but the memory of the last three years will have a profound impact.

    Of course I framed it with a civil war analogy because superficial historical allegories are fun.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,241
    Always enjoyable to read a Cyclefree piece.

    As soon as I reached 'British Mini-Me' I was certain who the author was.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 27,947
    edited May 6

    Mr. B, what's the alternative? The EU cannot be reformed. It seeks only to accrue power to the centre, away from the accountable democracies of nation-states. If you're in favour of a United States of Europe, that's fine. If you're not, what realistic alternative is there to leaving?

    The Brexit negotiations should have shown that this is a delusion. Time and again the UK attempted to negotiate directly with member states who held a firm line that we should talk to the Commission. It's not that power has been taken from member states - it's that they understand they have more power by working collectively. Leaving the EU will not change the balance of power between the UK and the other 27 states in the UK's favour - it will leave the UK relatively weaker.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 8,566
    CD13 said:

    Mr Walker,



    "Which domestic laws have been imposed against our will by the EU?"



    The EU produce Directives and Regulations. Although Directives need to be made into British regulations, European Regulations are already law in the UK.

    So which ones that we voted against have been imposed? Obviously ones that we voted for do not count.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. Glenn, oh, aye. The political class, certainly the leadership, has been shown to be utterly incompetent.

    But politicians come and go. Constitutional arrangements, treaties, and laws last altogether longer.

    Dr. Foxy, just a general point on the 'we opposed' line: almost the entire UK political class is pro-EU. British MEPs being for something doesn't mean it's either in the national interest or supported by most people.

    They voted for Articles 11 and 13. I find it hard to believe the electorate was yearning for the link tax and a crackdown on creativity.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    “Jeremy Corbyn will not be able to get enough of his MPs to back a Brexit deal without the promise of a second referendum, even if Theresa May makes a big offer on a customs union and workers’ rights this week, senior Labour figures believe.

    Senior party sources said they believe two-thirds of Labour MPs, including several shadow cabinet ministers and many more frontbenchers, would refuse to back a deal without a people’s vote attached.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/05/labour-mps-say-they-wont-back-a-brexit-deal-without-a-peoples-vote
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 8,566
    Slightly off topic:



    Note the swords on the wall behind, no Elf and safety here!
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,302
    One line summary of header and discussion: Cameron fucked us all over.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,602
    > @brokenwheel said:
    > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    >
    > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    >
    > It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.
    >
    > Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    >
    > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    >
    > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    >
    >
    > As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.
    >
    >
    >
    > It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.
    >
    > The ship has sailed.

    Wrong - we'd be welcomedback with open arms and influence comes with economic strength - which we have.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 43,472
    edited May 6
    IanB2 said:

    “Jeremy Corbyn will not be able to get enough of his MPs to back a Brexit deal without the promise of a second referendum, even if Theresa May makes a big offer on a customs union and workers’ rights this week, senior Labour figures believe.



    Senior party sources said they believe two-thirds of Labour MPs, including several shadow cabinet ministers and many more frontbenchers, would refuse to back a deal without a people’s vote attached.”



    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/05/labour-mps-say-they-wont-back-a-brexit-deal-without-a-peoples-vote

    Duh. When the goal is remain even giving labour a labour Brexit would not create a deal. Corbyn is not so dumb as to sacrifice his leadership for this even if May is so desperate she has nothing to lose in trying it.

    Her best hope would appear to be if the labour leadership reject it could she put the plan the commons and see enough lab mps back it because she really had given them something.

    It seems doubtful. If 2/3 wont back it even if the leadership does then less than 1/3 will if the leadership opposes it. Add in you need more than 30 to back it, possibly double or triple that or more as some who backed the WA have already recanted and many more Tories would vote against it, and once more it falls .
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,471
    edited May 6
    Mr Gallowgate,

    In the case of Regulations, no further British input is allowed. In the case of Directives, we can adapt them a little to our own form of legislation, but there are limits and these are 'policed' by the EU.

    While we're on this subject, one reason why some on the left have become enamoured of the EU is that Health and Safety laws have become stricter. Limits are set for exposure to dangerous substances at work to make them uniform across the EU. However laws don't magically work without enforcement. British Industry often complains that the UK (and Germany, for instance) do enforce these laws properly whereas the Mediterranean countries never bother. So they can sign them off happily because no one will ever check.

    We could make these same stricter laws ourselves, but the left don't trust a UK Tory government. They eat babies, you know.

    There are many laws from Europe that we must import and where our input is one vote in twenty eight. Hence the reason to form 'gangs' and do quid pro quo deals. You may think this a good thing, but don't try and deny it happens.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,514
    > @felix said:
    > > @brokenwheel said:
    > > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    > >
    > > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    > >
    > > It's one reason I'm so concerned about the censorious nature of modern politics.
    > >
    > > Reclaiming allegedly lost power to be net less powerful hardly seems like a good or sensible trade.
    > >
    > > Mr. Glenn, ha.
    > >
    > > The lesson is that giving away power is a lot easier than reclaiming it.
    > >
    > >
    > > As we’ll discover after we have left the EU.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > It should be pretty clear by now that should we remain in the EU we will have no power whatsoever.
    > >
    > > The ship has sailed.
    >
    > Wrong - we'd be welcomedback with open arms and influence comes with economic strength - which we have.

    We would however be better regarded and more influential if we didn’t send another bunch of useless lunatics as our MEPs.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,657
    I’m afraid this has been a clear problem for years now. Britain is now in the midst of an experiment to see how long it can function effectively without a useful government.

    Italy did fine for over fifty years that way. The last twenty years, however, have told a sorrier tale.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,657
    Never mind the article, I have questions about the cartoon:



    Since when did mice try to trap cats with mousetraps? And what real harm would come to the cat anyway?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 43,472

    Never mind the article, I have questions about the cartoon:







    Since when did mice try to trap cats with mousetraps? And what real harm would come to the cat anyway?
    And isn't Jerry the hero of those cartoons?
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,502
    We could be looking at becoming more like Canada, which has been a fascinating mess of multi party politics with minority governments for years while staying with FPTP. Of course they were supposed to switch to PR after last election but Trudeau broke that promise. I think we will never see another a coalition government again though, just support for minority governments. Certainly the majorities of Thatcher and Blair don't seem like they will be reproduced anytime soon.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,515
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Mr. Walker, I don't believe the UK would've gone down the nonsensical VAT route the EU did with the #VATmess. Also, I raised accountability. The UK political class is, idiotically, in favour of Articles 11 and 13, but outside the EU it would at least be possible to support a party that wants to get rid of those. Inside the EU, it's simply not possible.
    >
    > But the key issue is that the EU integrates ever more, and we need to decide whether we wish to be an independent, self-governing nation, or a state within a wider EU. And for those claiming that's a fantasy, much the same was said only a few years ago about the EU army.
    >
    > Mr. Glenn, possibly, from some, but we would be able to hold those who determine our domestic laws to account, which we cannot now.
    >
    > Mr. B, what's the alternative? The EU cannot be reformed. It seeks only to accrue power to the centre, away from the accountable democracies of nation-states. If you're in favour of a United States of Europe, that's fine. If you're not, what realistic alternative is there to leaving?
    >
    > If our political class had not created a political centre-ground that was solidly pro-EU yet had little common ground with the electorate, we'd be in a better position, having certainly held a referendum on Lisbon (if not earlier). Instead they make anti-EU noises in opposition and act quite differently in office, gleefully throwing away vetoes and reneging upon manifesto pledges to do it.

    The "Vatmess" you refer to is the perfect example of a rule that the UK will have to take outside of the EU with no input or discussion.

    Inside the EU, the UK is at the table where the regulations are being thrashed out, it has a vote that can stop most things it doesn't want, and it can lobby afterwards for change.

    I understand the UK was one of those pushing for the "Vatmess". It may be a mess but it was a UK endorsed one. Which is the important sovereignty point.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 393
    > @Gardenwalker said:
    > Mr. B, indeed, if that customs union and backstop nonsense goes ahead.
    >
    > Mr. Matt, we'll be able to determine our own domestic laws rather than have them imposed by the EU, and thus able to hold the political decision-makers to account directly, rather than have MPs point to the EU as a scapegoat (which is another reason that scepticism flourished).
    >
    > Which domestic laws have been imposed against our will by the EU?

    One example: The right of 500,000,000 million people to live in the UK if they want with only very restricted powers to prevent it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 43,472

    We could be looking at becoming more like Canada, which has been a fascinating mess of multi party politics with minority governments for years while staying with FPTP. Of course they were supposed to switch to PR after last election but Trudeau broke that promise. I think we will never see another a coalition government again though, just support for minority governments. Certainly the majorities of Thatcher and Blair don't seem like they will be reproduced anytime soon.

    On the PR point I seem to recall the lame reason for breaking that promise was not agreeing on what should replace FPTP precisely - as though working on that was not a possibility. But with another election coming up surely like the SNP and currency Trudeau must remake his promise to replace FPTP but with a plan this time?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 8,566
    > @algarkirk said:
    > > @Gardenwalker said:
    > > Mr. B, indeed, if that customs union and backstop nonsense goes ahead.
    > >
    > > Mr. Matt, we'll be able to determine our own domestic laws rather than have them imposed by the EU, and thus able to hold the political decision-makers to account directly, rather than have MPs point to the EU as a scapegoat (which is another reason that scepticism flourished).
    > >
    > > Which domestic laws have been imposed against our will by the EU?
    >
    > One example: The right of 500,000,000 million people to live in the UK if they want with only very restricted powers to prevent it?

    The Single Market was a British initiative, under Mrs Thatcher in the late eighties. You may not like FOM, but it was not imposed against our will.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 21,587
    IanB2 said:

    “Jeremy Corbyn will not be able to get enough of his MPs to back a Brexit deal without the promise of a second referendum, even if Theresa May makes a big offer on a customs union and workers’ rights this week, senior Labour figures believe.



    Senior party sources said they believe two-thirds of Labour MPs, including several shadow cabinet ministers and many more frontbenchers, would refuse to back a deal without a people’s vote attached.”



    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/05/labour-mps-say-they-wont-back-a-brexit-deal-without-a-peoples-vote

    It is going to be a very long summer.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,657
    The hard left is at its usual internecine standard. As well as the tweet, check out the comments:

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Dr. Foxy, that assumes the electorate was in favour.

    Also, migration rates then were far lower than when Blair decided to 'rub the right's face in diversity'. And before further expansion (yeah, UK politicians were in favour of that too. But the divide between the political class and the electorate is a hallmark of the EU division).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,781
    > @kle4 said:
    > Never mind the article, I have questions about the cartoon:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Since when did mice try to trap cats with mousetraps? And what real harm would come to the cat anyway?
    >
    > And isn't Jerry the hero of those cartoons?

    From memory of such films the result of such an enterprise would be that the trap sprung back and engulfed the cat.

    And another thoughtful, and thought-provoking, piece from Ms Cyclefree.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,515
    > @AlastairMeeks said:
    > Never mind the article, I have questions about the cartoon:
    >
    >
    >
    > Since when did mice try to trap cats with mousetraps? And what real harm would come to the cat anyway?

    I'm not prepared to pay to read that article but you get the comments for free. They are not happy reading for Boris whose previously popular snake oil is comprehensively rejected in favour of the new stronger Farage brand.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. 43, that might still work out for Boris, though, as Farage won't be standing in the Conservative leadership contest.

    And yeah, that cartoon is just a bit weird.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 10,625
    > @AlastairMeeks said:
    > I’m afraid this has been a clear problem for years now. Britain is now in the midst of an experiment to see how long it can function effectively without a useful government.
    >
    > Italy did fine for over fifty years that way. The last twenty years, however, have told a sorrier tale.

    I wonder what happened 20 years ago....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 8,566

    Dr. Foxy, that assumes the electorate was in favour.

    Also, migration rates then were far lower than when Blair decided to 'rub the right's face in diversity'. And before further expansion (yeah, UK politicians were in favour of that too. But the divide between the political class and the electorate is a hallmark of the EU division).

    These decisions were made by our elected politicians. Are you really suggesting the neither Thatcher nor Blair had a mandate?

    How else are we to determine this mysterious "Will of the People"?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,515
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Mr. 43, that might still work out for Boris, though, as Farage won't be standing in the Conservative leadership contest.
    >
    > And yeah, that cartoon is just a bit weird.

    But "I can't believe it's not UKIP" Conservatives will struggle against the real Farage.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 21,587
    Look where we have ended up 25 years later.

    Can you imagine trying to get this project funded and passed by HoC since the catastrophe of Cameron's stupid eu vote?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 43,472
    FF43 said:

    > @AlastairMeeks said:

    > Never mind the article, I have questions about the cartoon:

    >

    >



    >

    > Since when did mice try to trap cats with mousetraps? And what real harm would come to the cat anyway?



    I'm not prepared to pay to read that article but you get the comments for free. They are not happy reading for Boris whose previously popular snake oil is comprehensively rejected in favour of the new stronger Farage brand.
    Boris backed Mays' deal. Clearly this makes him basically the same as May.

    Or So I'd have expected but he still seems to charm many of the true believers.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,452
    BBC 1979 Election night coverage - 11 minutes from start a section on betting on the result.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 8,566
    FF43 said:

    > @AlastairMeeks said:

    > Never mind the article, I have questions about the cartoon:

    >

    >



    >

    > Since when did mice try to trap cats with mousetraps? And what real harm would come to the cat anyway?



    I'm not prepared to pay to read that article but you get the comments for free. They are not happy reading for Boris whose previously popular snake oil is comprehensively rejected in favour of the new stronger Farage brand.
    On that subject, Boris seems to have bought a new tie:

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 21,587
    dr_spyn said:

    BBC 1979 Election night coverage - 11 minutes from start a section on betting on the result.

    No spoilers please.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 8,566
    tlg86 said:

    > @AlastairMeeks said:

    > I’m afraid this has been a clear problem for years now. Britain is now in the midst of an experiment to see how long it can function effectively without a useful government.

    >

    > Italy did fine for over fifty years that way. The last twenty years, however, have told a sorrier tale.



    I wonder what happened 20 years ago....

    That was when Italy developed a strong and stable government under Berlisconi.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 3,980
    edited May 6
    Liam Byrne's letter to Hodge Hill CLP to announce this attempt to get selected for the mayoral position...

    He makes it sound as everyone is dying of hunger in Birmingham
    There is also a "moral emergency of Tory Britain" that he really wants to fight.

    https://i1.wp.com/skwawkbox.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/byrne-email-1.png?w=940&ssl=1
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,452
    @rottenborough The clipped accents in some of the news items are quite noticeable.
  • isamisam Posts: 26,541
    Chaos, controversy and upset was what our political elite chose, rather than do anything about mass immigration.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,729
    ' immigration from the EU is down but is being replaced by non-EU immigration. '

    EU immigration and non-EU immigration are two separate things.

    If EU immigration was higher non-EU immigration would not be lower.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,066
    > @IanB2 said:
    > > @hamiltonace said:
    > > > @Sandpit said:
    > > > Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.
    > >
    > > I also think iit is a great piece. One point I would add is that the union is being trashed for so called democracy. The issues of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are being not just ignored but derided.
    >
    >
    > When you take away putting the interests of the economy and of the Union first and, well, being conservative, what do they have left?

    You make a good point. I fear even the possibility of rejoining will be a pipedream. The EU and the world have seen us for what we are and it's not been a pretty sight. Anyone wanting to deal with us in future would be advised to bring an exeedingly long spoon.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 3,902

    Ceasefire agreed between Israel and Hamas thankfully.

    Good news. Just as well the dispute over there isn't as difficult to resolve as Brexit.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 277
    > @algarkirk said:
    > > @Gardenwalker said:
    > > Mr. B, indeed, if that customs union and backstop nonsense goes ahead.
    > >
    > > Mr. Matt, we'll be able to determine our own domestic laws rather than have them imposed by the EU, and thus able to hold the political decision-makers to account directly, rather than have MPs point to the EU as a scapegoat (which is another reason that scepticism flourished).
    > >
    > > Which domestic laws have been imposed against our will by the EU?
    >
    > One example: The right of 500,000,000 million people to live in the UK if they want with only very restricted powers to prevent it?

    Well in theory every one of the 330 million Americans can visit the UK at the same time, but it doesn't happen does it?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,471
    An interesting point has been raised as to who is this magical 'We'?

    In European discussions, the 'line to take' is dictated by civil servants. They seem to work by arranging deals. It's what they do. I'm quite sure their ministers aren't up to date with every nuance. So, Sir Humphry is the 'we'. Democracy in action.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,729
    ' Like all revolutions, the initial demand for a trading relationship shorn of the political stuff (this from a country which built an Empire on the back of and for trade) ends up being discarded for a pure untainted Year Zero approach. '

    Politics is now a twatter fueled rush to the extremes.

    If there is one thing which would improve our politicians it would be a ban on twatter use.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,452
    1979 time line might be useful for those watching via BBC Iplayer later.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/ns-liveblog-retro-edition-1979
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 277
    > @williamglenn said:
    > We might slink about like a slapped cat, or we could re-energize ourselves and start to inject some enthusiasm into the process... and that is only our call to make. Listening to the little Englanders who want the UK to break up has been depressing and maddening. This kind of stupidity deserves nothing but a Bronx cheer.
    >
    > People who don't want the UK to break up need to come up with a coherent plan for constitutional reform pretty quickly.

    A Federal UK has been Lib Dem policy for over 100 years, also including HoL Reform and electoral Reform... https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/libdems/pages/4138/attachments/original/1392840156/117_-_Power_to_the_People.pdf?1392840156
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,414
    > @Nigelb said:
    > > @hamiltonace said:
    >
    > > > @Sandpit said:
    >
    > > > Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > I also think iit is a great piece. One point I would add is that the union is being trashed for so called democracy. The issues of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are being not just ignored but derided.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > When you take away putting the interests of the economy and of the Union first and, well, being conservative, what do they have left?
    >
    > Brexit is not a conservative project.
    > It is a radical pursuit of an abstract - sovereignty - without any apparent coherent thought about the consequences, let alone planning for the nation’s future.
    >
    > And yes, an excellent header. I could tell it was a Cyclefree article from the first paragraph.

    There's not a lot a lot about the EU that's small or large C Conservative.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. 43, oh, aye. Come the election, a diet coke option will always suffer, at least somewhat (and potentially very seriously) when up against the real deal.

    Mr. Cicero, is that for an English Parliament or do they intend to carve England into pieces?
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,502
    kle4 said:

    We could be looking at becoming more like Canada, which has been a fascinating mess of multi party politics with minority governments for years while staying with FPTP. Of course they were supposed to switch to PR after last election but Trudeau broke that promise. I think we will never see another a coalition government again though, just support for minority governments. Certainly the majorities of Thatcher and Blair don't seem like they will be reproduced anytime soon.

    On the PR point I seem to recall the lame reason for breaking that promise was not agreeing on what should replace FPTP precisely - as though working on that was not a possibility. But with another election coming up surely like the SNP and currency Trudeau must remake his promise to replace FPTP but with a plan this time?
    I'm not sure, I think he seems to have gotten away with it, certainly there was no lib dem tuition fees style collapse in support after such a blatant promise break, he may just try and ignore it completely now. Perhaps it's just less of an important issue there than in the UK (although even here it feels like no-one is really talking about changing FPTP these days)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 24,802
    > @another_richard said:
    > ' Like all revolutions, the initial demand for a trading relationship shorn of the political stuff (this from a country which built an Empire on the back of and for trade) ends up being discarded for a pure untainted Year Zero approach. '
    >
    > Politics is now a twatter fueled rush to the extremes.
    >
    > If there is one thing which would improve our politicians it would be a ban on twatter use.

    +1
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 3,902

    Dr. Foxy, that assumes the electorate was in favour.

    Also, migration rates then were far lower than when Blair decided to 'rub the right's face in diversity'. And before further expansion (yeah, UK politicians were in favour of that too. But the divide between the political class and the electorate is a hallmark of the EU division).

    So you are saying the entire problem is with British politicians? If so, how is leaving going to help.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,729
    > @Sean_F said:
    > > @Nigelb said:
    > > > @hamiltonace said:
    > >
    > > > > @Sandpit said:
    > >
    > > > > Third? Good piece as always Ms Cyclefree.
    > >
    > > >
    > >
    > > > I also think iit is a great piece. One point I would add is that the union is being trashed for so called democracy. The issues of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are being not just ignored but derided.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > When you take away putting the interests of the economy and of the Union first and, well, being conservative, what do they have left?
    > >
    > > Brexit is not a conservative project.
    > > It is a radical pursuit of an abstract - sovereignty - without any apparent coherent thought about the consequences, let alone planning for the nation’s future.
    > >
    > > And yes, an excellent header. I could tell it was a Cyclefree article from the first paragraph.
    >
    > There's not a lot a lot about the EU that's small or large C Conservative.

    The EU is very much an alliance between big government, big business and big culture.

    There are elements of Conservative support which approve of that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 27,947
    Cicero said:


    > People who don't want the UK to break up need to come up with a coherent plan for constitutional reform pretty quickly.

    A Federal UK has been Lib Dem policy for over 100 years, also including HoL Reform and electoral Reform... https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/libdems/pages/4138/attachments/original/1392840156/117_-_Power_to_the_People.pdf?1392840156
    That document rules out an English parliament on the grounds that it would be impossible to have a balanced federal UK on that basis, therefore it just emphasises how intractable the problem is.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,502

    > @another_richard said:

    > ' Like all revolutions, the initial demand for a trading relationship shorn of the political stuff (this from a country which built an Empire on the back of and for trade) ends up being discarded for a pure untainted Year Zero approach. '

    >

    > Politics is now a twatter fueled rush to the extremes.

    >

    > If there is one thing which would improve our politicians it would be a ban on twatter use.



    +1

    David Cameron's "too many tweets" quote is probably the thing he leaves as a legacy, truer words were never spoken.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 968
    Foxy said:

    Slightly off topic:



    Note the swords on the wall behind, no Elf and safety here!

    Just the yellow jackets needed.
This discussion has been closed.