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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The seven minutes that put Kamala Harris back into the Democra

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited May 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The seven minutes that put Kamala Harris back into the Democratic nomination race

 

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  • FloaterFloater Posts: 7,587
    first
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 536
    edited May 6
    Second.....like Liverpool.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 12,282
    Hard to see past Biden at the moment IMO - Sanders' vote plunging, everyone else bouncing up and down in the 5-12 range, Biden on 44. Last month's hot tiup Buttigeg is down to 2!

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 5,300
    She's clearly pretty smart but if US voters wanted a smart President they wouldn't have voted for Trump.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,126
    fpt:
    > @kinabalu said:
    > Here is one and the article links to other research on the subject.
    > ...
    >
    >
    > Thanks. I will read those. And just to clarify what I'm seeking an answer to:
    >
    > It is not so much - Why did so many of the WWC vote Leave?
    >

    I ran across an excellent piece in the NS by my current MP Gloria de Piero about that this morning.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

    "How do we make sense of Brexit and how should we respond to the 2016 referendum result? If Labour doesn’t identify the concerns of those who voted against the status quo and take steps to address the discontent and disaffection that lay behind their decision to do so, there is a risk it will not govern for a long time. I represent a Labour seat where nearly 70 per cent of people voted Leave and I wanted to understand why so many did. I spoke to seven people from my Ashfield constituency who opted to exit the EU – one person from each age group between twenties and seventies. I wanted to hear the stories behind the statistics and identify some common themes that might help Labour reconnect with our natural base. "
  • > @Peter_the_Punter said:
    > She's clearly pretty smart but if US voters wanted a smart President they wouldn't have voted for Trump.
    >
    >

    In a system where the only choice is between Donald or Hilary, smart never comes into it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,126
    I'd call that questioning by Kamala Harris "Lawyer's Questioning" rather than forensic - she is trying to create a black-white divide in a world of grey and dump her opponent on the wrong side.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 277
    Prince Harry looking pretty happy... Its a boy!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,864
    > @Peter_the_Punter said:
    > She's clearly pretty smart but if US voters wanted a smart President they wouldn't have voted for Trump.
    >
    >

    Otoh, the last two Democrat presidents were lawyers.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,864
    edited May 6
    > @MattW said:
    > I'd call that questioning by Kamala Harris "Lawyer's Questioning" rather than forensic - she is trying to create a black-white divide in a world of grey and dump her opponent on the wrong side.

    Harris is questioning the Attorney General of the United States, who is ex officio big enough and ugly enough to take care of himself in lawyerly exchanges.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,512
    > @DecrepitJohnL said:
    > > @MattW said:
    > > I'd call that questioning by Kamala Harris "Lawyer's Questioning" rather than forensic - she is trying to create a black-white divide in a world of grey and dump her opponent on the wrong side.
    >
    > Harris is questioning the Attorney General of the United States, who is ex officio big enough and ugly enough to take care of himself in lawyerly exchanges.

    Yes, I don’t think the skills on display here translate well into the role of the President.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    I think the big problem for the Democrats is name recognition against Trump, for this reason, I should imagine that Biden is the best candidate to take on Trump given the current field. I should imagine that Biden would be good in the debates but I wonder how good he would be at sticking the pin on the donkey (Trump) and making the point stick.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,180
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > Hard to see past Biden at the moment IMO - Sanders' vote plunging, everyone else bouncing up and down in the 5-12 range, Biden on 44. Last month's hot tiup Buttigeg is down to 2!
    >
    > https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

    The gap between Biden's national polling and the latest Iowa and New Hampshire surveys could indicate something bigger. In these two early states people start focussing on the primary race a long time before the country at large.

    Biden is the Jeb Bush of this campaign. Well known through their names but is that backed up by much else. He's also very gaffe prone. Look at this parody Joe Biden website.

    https://joebiden.info/
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 24,657
    She’s very good in that clip (and William Barr is very evasive).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 25,218
    > @IanB2 said:
    > > @DecrepitJohnL said:
    > > > @MattW said:
    > > > I'd call that questioning by Kamala Harris "Lawyer's Questioning" rather than forensic - she is trying to create a black-white divide in a world of grey and dump her opponent on the wrong side.
    > >
    > > Harris is questioning the Attorney General of the United States, who is ex officio big enough and ugly enough to take care of himself in lawyerly exchanges.
    >
    > Yes, I don’t think the skills on display here translate well into the role of the President.

    I don't think that's the question.

    I think the question is:

    Does Kamala Harris stand out from the crowd?

    And I think the answer is "yes she does". She makes Democrats feel like someone is holding the President (and his men) to account. Not a lot of Senators, even the ones of the Judiciary committee, have managed to do that.

    All that being said, she does need some of the 12 dwarves to drop out prior to Iowa/NH and send their supporters her way.

    My view: she has an easier path the Presidency than Sanders, but a harder one than Biden.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 25,218
    Re Kamala Harris: I also think she's possibly the only candidate who make Trump lose his cool in a debate environment. I could see him flipping out and going off the rails.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.

    I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 25,218
    > @MikeSmithson said:
    > > @NickPalmer said:
    > > Hard to see past Biden at the moment IMO - Sanders' vote plunging, everyone else bouncing up and down in the 5-12 range, Biden on 44. Last month's hot tiup Buttigeg is down to 2!
    > >
    > > https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html
    >
    > The gap between Biden's national polling and the latest Iowa and New Hampshire surveys could indicate something bigger. In these two early states people start focussing on the primary race a long time before the country at large.
    >
    > Biden is the Jeb Bush of this campaign. Well known through their names but is that backed up by much else. He's also very gaffe prone. Look at this parody Joe Biden website.
    >
    > https://joebiden.info/

    I think that's right.

    As he showed in 2008 (delegate count... zero), he's not a dynamic campaigner. Really, the only reason he's in the position he's in is because Obama picked him as VP.

    I suspect he'll struggle to shine in the debates. Really, those who will get the crowd going will be those who manage to (a) be articulate and engaging and likeable, and (b) have their finger on the hot button issue for the Primaries. (So, in 2016, it was the Donald who had his finger on immigration, when no-one else was talking about it.)

    I don't think Biden scores that well on (a), and I think he'll really struggle with (b).

    Of the current candidates, I think Warren, Yang and (yes) Sanders do best on (b).

    But all of them struggle with (a). Warren is a technocrat. Yang is a bit weird. And Sanders is a grouchy Grandpa.

    So, the real question, I think, is of the candidates who have (a) is spades - such as Beto and Mayor Pete - can any of them nail (b)?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 27,943
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > Re Kamala Harris: I also think she's possibly the only candidate who make Trump lose his cool in a debate environment. I could see him flipping out and going off the rails.

    That's a good point. She can be tough without him being able to paint her as an Angry Democrat, even more so than Biden.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 25,218
    > @williamglenn said:
    > > @rcs1000 said:
    > > Re Kamala Harris: I also think she's possibly the only candidate who make Trump lose his cool in a debate environment. I could see him flipping out and going off the rails.
    >
    > That's a good point. She can be tough without him being able to paint her as an Angry Democrat, even more so than Biden.

    In a debate environment, with Kamala Harris calling on the moderators to "fact check", I can see Trump getting really, really angry.

    And then her giving a dismissive line such as "and they say women are the people who can't control their emotions."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,426
    edited May 6
    Kamala (or 'Harris' if we must) is my pick so I'm pleased as punch with this header.

    So sharp in an interrogation setting that you can easily imagine her in AC12 - the ultimate compliment.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 27,943
    edited May 6
    rcs1000 said:

    Really, those who will get the crowd going will be those who manage to (a) be articulate and engaging and likeable, and (b) have their finger on the hot button issue for the Primaries. (So, in 2016, it was the Donald who had his finger on immigration, when no-one else was talking about it.)

    I don't think Biden scores that well on (a), and I think he'll really struggle with (b).

    Of the current candidates, I think Warren, Yang and (yes) Sanders do best on (b).

    But all of them struggle with (a). Warren is a technocrat. Yang is a bit weird. And Sanders is a grouchy Grandpa.

    So, the real question, I think, is of the candidates who have (a) is spades - such as Beto and Mayor Pete - can any of them nail (b)?

    Warren is a cut above the average technocratic candidate. Perhaps it's due to her career as a college professor but she has a way of framing policy issues in a relatable way without turning into David Miliband.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 1,454
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    >
    > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    >
    >
    > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html

    ______________________________

    Good luck with the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation. I used to find BBC R4 News fine but the bias towards reporting Farage not the Lib.Dems or Greens and 'leave' not 'remain'-related points is getting tedious. (Other programmes like AQ have stayed OK.)

    I was now going to reply to another quote as we used to do. But I don't dare do that until Vanilla's fixed.

    Vanilla's not the only 'improvement' to make things worse. Firefox has stopped working with Adblock or with the search engine Duckduckgo (which doesn't track you). A Firefox update is 'promised'. Is Vanilla promising one?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 393
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    >
    > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    >
    >
    > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html


    Is there much substance to Chuka Umunna's thoughts; do they not reduce to: Farage stands in elections, campaigns politically and is a sort of democrat; people Chuka doesn't like much or understand, mostly political moderates, vote for both him and some of his central views in various ways; Chuka has different opinions from Farage and doesn't like losing; it is easy to picture Farage as an extremist demagogue even though he isn't; a free press has a diversity of colourful biases.

    No wiser. No better informed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Damn it. Looking on Wikipedia, it seems the Pirates aren't standing:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_and_the_Humber_(European_Parliament_constituency)

    In the past, I might've voted English Democrat, but in recent years I've heard unpleasant things of BNP entryism and the like.

    ....

    I don't think there's a single party I want to vote for. Hmm.

    There's only one occasion in the past when I didn't vote. It was a very low key local election that I simply wasn't aware was on.

    *sighs* I'll probably contemplate the least worst option and back that. Or sign my ballot with an entertaining poem.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 51,576
    The race is now Boden and the seven dwarves, Sanders being the tallest of the also rans.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 393
    > @algarkirk said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > >
    > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > >
    > >
    > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    >
    >
    > Is there much substance to Chuka Umunna's thoughts; do they not reduce to: Farage stands in elections, campaigns politically and is a sort of democrat; people Chuka doesn't like much or understand, mostly political moderates, vote for both him and some of his central views in various ways; Chuka has different opinions from Farage and doesn't like losing; it is easy to picture Farage as an extremist demagogue even though he isn't; a free press has a diversity of colourful biases.
    >
    > No wiser. No better informed.

    As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,517
    edited May 6
    Morris_Dancer said:
    > Damn it. Looking on Wikipedia, it seems the Pirates aren't standing:
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_and_the_Humber_(European_Parliament_constituency)
    >
    > In the past, I might've voted English Democrat, but in recent years I've heard unpleasant things of BNP entryism and the like.
    >
    > ....
    >
    > I don't think there's a single party I want to vote for. Hmm.
    >
    > There's only one occasion in the past when I didn't vote. It was a very low key local election that I simply wasn't aware was on.
    >
    > *sighs* I'll probably contemplate the least worst option and back that. Or sign my ballot with an entertaining poem.

    I wonder if any polling has been done, or may be done as to whether the voter is voting FOR the candidate or actively voting AGAINST another candidate
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 51,576
    > @MikeSmithson said:
    > > @NickPalmer said:
    > > Hard to see past Biden at the moment IMO - Sanders' vote plunging, everyone else bouncing up and down in the 5-12 range, Biden on 44. Last month's hot tiup Buttigeg is down to 2!
    > >
    > > https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html
    >
    > The gap between Biden's national polling and the latest Iowa and New Hampshire surveys could indicate something bigger. In these two early states people start focussing on the primary race a long time before the country at large.
    >
    > Biden is the Jeb Bush of this campaign. Well known through their names but is that backed up by much else. He's also very gaffe prone. Look at this parody Joe Biden website.
    >
    > https://joebiden.info/

    Nah Harris is this races Jeb Bush, a ridiculously low early price barely backed up by anything
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 51,576
    Harrisramping.com
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,171

    *sighs* I'll probably contemplate the least worst option and back that. Or sign my ballot with an entertaining poem.

    Violets don't glow
    Brad Pitt has zits
    I ain't voting now
    'Cos MPs are shits.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 25,239
    As I have said before this is what she is really good at but it is not a sufficient skill set on its own to be a contender.

    She needs a clear idea of what the US should be like. If she has it I haven’t seen her articulate it.

    BTW, what a dream witness to cross. The AG of the USA? It’s a joke.
  • > @The_Taxman said:
    > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    >
    > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    >
    >
    > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html

    Umunna is a busted flush. He'll be out of a job come the next GE, and that'll be no loss to public life whatsoever.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. Root, with so many to choose from it'd normally be voting for a party, I think.

    But I don't want to endorse a Remain position, Labour is wretched, the Conservative deal (especially the customs union wibbling) is rubbish, UKIP is an implosion of woe, and I'm not fond of Farage (I can respect the desire to actually leave, but rallies and 'lock her up' put me off far more than they entice me).

    Mr. Doethur,

    There is a goat,
    Who wears a coat,
    And is afloat,
    With a stoat,
    In a boat,
    On a moat;
    He has no vote.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 74,737
    edited May 6

    Damn it. Looking on Wikipedia, it seems the Pirates aren't standing:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_and_the_Humber_(European_Parliament_constituency)

    In the past, I might've voted English Democrat, but in recent years I've heard unpleasant things of BNP entryism and the like.

    ....

    I don't think there's a single party I want to vote for. Hmm.

    There's only one occasion in the past when I didn't vote. It was a very low key local election that I simply wasn't aware was on.

    *sighs* I'll probably contemplate the least worst option and back that. Or sign my ballot with an entertaining poem.

    Vote Green.

    Magid Magid is standing in Yorkshire.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 655
    I'm going to stop rabbiting on about Guildford now, but I have extracted a few sentences from the Guildford online newspaper, The Dragon. I have been selective, picking out the most damning bits for brevity:


    "No one could objectively look at the results of the consultation on the Local Plan and say it was properly listened to. It was not.

    The veritable avalanche of 80,000 responses demonstrated the level of alarm over the Plan. Dismissing the views as NIMBY was not good enough.

    When politicians become too removed, too unhearing, too self-righteous, they are bound to fail.

    But Guildford’s Conservatives didn’t leave without a parting shot. Squeezing through adoption of the widely unpopular Local Plan a week before voters could have their say in the ballot box was probably the clearest sign of how undemocratic the Conservative instincts were.

    Even after the results from Thursday, they were still patting themselves on the back for perpetrating this.

    Do not forget, in the final months and weeks of the previous administration came a shameful revelation.

    If the “letter of support” for the Wisley Garden Village bid, passed off as official backing from Surrey County Council, had been written by GBC’s planning department that would be bad enough but it took a Freedom of Information investigation to reveal the glaring truth, that it really was written by agents of the property developers.

    Those concerned, caught with one hand in this mire of dishonesty, contemptuously used the other to give two fingers to those few crying foul. Perhaps they thought they were untouchable. Well, now they’re well and truly touched.

    But the new kids on the block, all those new councillors, need not feel smug. They too are human, they too will be tempted to keep unpopular things under wraps, cut corners, hear what they want to hear and ignore criticism.

    If we are to see real, meaningful change in the way our local politics are conducted, in the very culture at Millmead, they must carefully read the Nolan Principles and stick to them even when the means might seem to justify the end.

    A new page in our borough’s history has been turned. Let’s all be determined it will relate a better story."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. Eagles, I did notice that.

    I think I'd rather eat my own face, to quote Sir Edric (when offered a sausage of dubious provenance).
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 6,797

    Mr. Root, with so many to choose from it'd normally be voting for a party, I think.

    But I don't want to endorse a Remain position, Labour is wretched, the Conservative deal (especially the customs union wibbling) is rubbish, UKIP is an implosion of woe, and I'm not fond of Farage (I can respect the desire to actually leave, but rallies and 'lock her up' put me off far more than they entice me).

    Mr. Doethur,

    There is a goat,
    Who wears a coat,
    And is afloat,
    With a stoat,
    In a boat,
    On a moat;
    He has no vote.

    Labour is red
    Tories are blue
    Jezza can fuck off
    And Tessa can too.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    edited May 6
    > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > >
    > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > >
    > >
    > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    >
    > Umunna is a busted flush. He'll be out of a job come the next GE, and that'll be no loss to public life whatsoever.

    I wouldn't write him off just yet! He has charisma. Some sort of progressive tactical alliance could happen yet in the next GE. Rebuilding representation for the centre ground is not an overnight job and it takes some time. The very press that gives Farage unmerited attention prejudices thought on how the moderates will fight back.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,426
    edited May 6
    MattW said:

    I ran across an excellent piece in the NS by my current MP Gloria de Piero about that this morning.
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

    Thanks. Will read. And have now checked out the ones linked on the PT by ‘ralphmalph’. Which proved to be excellent pieces. Insightful and persuasive on why many of the WWC in England voted Leave in 2016. Years of being marginalized, ignored, patronized - demonized even. Excluded from the fruits of economic growth in the good times, the prime target of austerity in the bad. Sick of the system so let’s fuck it up. Oh look, that twat Cameron is telling us to vote Remain. You know what, I’m gonna …

    BUT:

    I had already got with that programme. Years ago, I did. The great Owen Jones in his breakthrough book ‘Chavs’ was brilliant on it. It rings true to me and it is why I am loved up on the prospect of a radical, socialist leaning Labour government – because for all the flaws of Jeremy Corbyn as a leader his project is about prioritizing the badly off.

    So the same question is still torturing me –

    OK they voted Leave because - generically and with apols to the Stranglers, “Something Better Change” - understood - but why now, here in 2019, are WWC leavers flocking to No Deal Brexit and the likes of Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg, Redwood etc (to a man, right-wing careerists or free market ideologues who do not give a shit on a spit about the oiks) rather than this manifestation of Labour, who do care about them, about reducing inequality, and are proposing policies which make it clear that they do?

    The only way I can answer this with any logic is to conclude either that (i) they are enamoured with nationalism and matters of identity rather than economic and class self-interest, or (ii) they are not thinking clearly. Neither conclusion is particularly wholesome – hence my mental anguish.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 25,239
    > @kjh said:
    > I'm going to stop rabbiting on about Guildford now, but I have extracted a few sentences from the Guildford online newspaper, The Dragon. I have been selective, picking out the most damning bits for brevity:
    >
    >
    > "No one could objectively look at the results of the consultation on the Local Plan and say it was properly listened to. It was not.
    >
    > The veritable avalanche of 80,000 responses demonstrated the level of alarm over the Plan. Dismissing the views as NIMBY was not good enough.
    >
    > When politicians become too removed, too unhearing, too self-righteous, they are bound to fail.
    >
    > But Guildford’s Conservatives didn’t leave without a parting shot. Squeezing through adoption of the widely unpopular Local Plan a week before voters could have their say in the ballot box was probably the clearest sign of how undemocratic the Conservative instincts were.
    >
    > Even after the results from Thursday, they were still patting themselves on the back for perpetrating this.
    >
    > Do not forget, in the final months and weeks of the previous administration came a shameful revelation.
    >
    > If the “letter of support” for the Wisley Garden Village bid, passed off as official backing from Surrey County Council, had been written by GBC’s planning department that would be bad enough but it took a Freedom of Information investigation to reveal the glaring truth, that it really was written by agents of the property developers.
    >
    > Those concerned, caught with one hand in this mire of dishonesty, contemptuously used the other to give two fingers to those few crying foul. Perhaps they thought they were untouchable. Well, now they’re well and truly touched.
    >
    > But the new kids on the block, all those new councillors, need not feel smug. They too are human, they too will be tempted to keep unpopular things under wraps, cut corners, hear what they want to hear and ignore criticism.
    >
    > If we are to see real, meaningful change in the way our local politics are conducted, in the very culture at Millmead, they must carefully read the Nolan Principles and stick to them even when the means might seem to justify the end.
    >
    > A new page in our borough’s history has been turned. Let’s all be determined it will relate a better story."

    I won't even pretend to have been following this story like you have but in my experience a more likely explanation is that this proposal was being supported by officials and the Councillor's failings were not to ask proper questions and to remember who they actually represent. They have paid the price for that and quite right too but I would be surprised if it was really their idea.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 9,525
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
    > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > >
    > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > >
    > > Umunna is a busted flush. He'll be out of a job come the next GE, and that'll be no loss to public life whatsoever.
    >
    > I wouldn't write him off just yet! He has charisma. Some sort of progressive tactical alliance could happen yet in the next GE. Rebuilding representation for the centre ground is not an overnight job and it takes some time. The very press that gives Farage unmerited attention prejudices thought on how the moderates will fight back.

    People keep saying Chuka has charisma.

    Clearly he's not a complete damp fish, but he's no Tonty Blair.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Mr. Z, pithy and coarse, yet unerringly accurate.
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 866
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    >
    > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    >
    >
    > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html

    Hold on. Brexit supporting media? Where is that exactly? I don't get a newspaper these days other than The Times on Saturday. For my news I have the BBC and Sky, plus here. I don't see much Brexit supporting media?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 4,467
    TIL. Pilates was invented by a Mr Pilates.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,727
    > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > Damn it. Looking on Wikipedia, it seems the Pirates aren't standing:
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_and_the_Humber_(European_Parliament_constituency)
    >
    > In the past, I might've voted English Democrat, but in recent years I've heard unpleasant things of BNP entryism and the like.
    >
    > ....
    >
    > I don't think there's a single party I want to vote for. Hmm.
    >
    > There's only one occasion in the past when I didn't vote. It was a very low key local election that I simply wasn't aware was on.
    >
    > *sighs* I'll probably contemplate the least worst option and back that. Or sign my ballot with an entertaining poem.
    >
    > Vote Green.
    >
    > Magid Magid is standing in Yorkshire.

    Is this the best the Yorkshire Conservatives can find:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Procter_(politician)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,228
    Anyway, I must be off. Have a good evening, everyone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 25,239
    > @MikeSmithson said:
    > > @NickPalmer said:
    > > Hard to see past Biden at the moment IMO - Sanders' vote plunging, everyone else bouncing up and down in the 5-12 range, Biden on 44. Last month's hot tiup Buttigeg is down to 2!
    > >
    > > https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html
    >
    > The gap between Biden's national polling and the latest Iowa and New Hampshire surveys could indicate something bigger. In these two early states people start focussing on the primary race a long time before the country at large.
    >
    > Biden is the Jeb Bush of this campaign. Well known through their names but is that backed up by much else. He's also very gaffe prone. Look at this parody Joe Biden website.
    >
    > https://joebiden.info/

    You're talking about a country that elected Trump. After that recording on the bus:
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=trump+sexual+harrassment+bus+incident&&view=detail&mid=FAFE6CCBB658A3EFCBA4FAFE6CCBB658A3EFCBA4&&FORM=VRDGAR

    I mean...
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > >
    > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > >
    > >
    > > Is there much substance to Chuka Umunna's thoughts; do they not reduce to: Farage stands in elections, campaigns politically and is a sort of democrat; people Chuka doesn't like much or understand, mostly political moderates, vote for both him and some of his central views in various ways; Chuka has different opinions from Farage and doesn't like losing; it is easy to picture Farage as an extremist demagogue even though he isn't; a free press has a diversity of colourful biases.
    > >
    > > No wiser. No better informed.
    >
    > As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.

    I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
  • kjhkjh Posts: 655
    > @DavidL said:
    > > @kjh said:
    > > I'm going to stop rabbiting on about Guildford now, but I have extracted a few sentences from the Guildford online newspaper, The Dragon. I have been selective, picking out the most damning bits for brevity:
    > >
    > >

    >
    > I won't even pretend to have been following this story like you have but in my experience a more likely explanation is that this proposal was being supported by officials and the Councillor's failings were not to ask proper questions and to remember who they actually represent. They have paid the price for that and quite right too but I would be surprised if it was really their idea.

    Except it was the councillors who initiated all the underhand stuff. Eg letter purporting to come from one leader to another. Previous councillor in charge of planning found guilty of fraud and involved with previous leader to get the vote on an elected mayor and payment of students to collect signatures paid for by an associate. The spokesperson for the Cayman Island Development company being another Tory councillor from White Horse. The list goes on and on, all driven by councillors.
  • > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > > >
    > > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Is there much substance to Chuka Umunna's thoughts; do they not reduce to: Farage stands in elections, campaigns politically and is a sort of democrat; people Chuka doesn't like much or understand, mostly political moderates, vote for both him and some of his central views in various ways; Chuka has different opinions from Farage and doesn't like losing; it is easy to picture Farage as an extremist demagogue even though he isn't; a free press has a diversity of colourful biases.
    > > >
    > > > No wiser. No better informed.
    > >
    > > As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.
    >
    > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....

    I suppose we all see what biases we want to see.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,411
    > @kinabalu said:
    > I ran across an excellent piece in the NS by my current MP Gloria de Piero about that this morning.
    > https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt
    >
    > Thanks. Will read. And have now checked out the ones linked on the PT by ‘ralphmalph’. Which proved to be excellent pieces. Insightful and persuasive on why many of the WWC in England voted Leave in 2016. Years of being marginalized, ignored, patronized - demonized even. Excluded from the fruits of economic growth in the good times, the prime target of austerity in the bad. Sick of the system so let’s fuck it up. Oh look, that twat Cameron is telling us to vote Remain. You know what, I’m gonna …
    >
    > BUT:
    >
    > I had already got with that programme. Years ago, I did. The great Owen Jones in his breakthrough book ‘Chavs’ was brilliant on it. It rings true to me and it is why I am loved up on the prospect of a radical, socialist leaning Labour government – because for all the flaws of Jeremy Corbyn as a leader his project is about prioritizing the badly off.
    >
    > So the same question is still torturing me –
    >
    > OK they voted Leave because - generically and with apols to the Stranglers, “Something Better Change” - understood - but why now, here in 2019, are WWC leavers flocking to No Deal Brexit and the likes of Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg, Redwood etc (to a man, right-wing careerists or free market ideologues who do not give a shit on a spit about the oiks) rather than this manifestation of Labour, who do care about them, about reducing inequality, and are proposing policies which make it clear that they do?
    >
    > The only way I can answer this with any logic is to conclude either that (i) they are enamoured with nationalism and matters of identity rather than economic and class self-interest, or (ii) they are not thinking clearly. Neither conclusion is particularly wholesome – hence my mental anguish.

    Why not ask them? We can speculate why people vote as they do, but there's no substitute for doing one's own research. If you want my guesses why a lot of poor people don't vote for radical socialists (and they are only guesses) I'd suggest they don't believe radical socialists can deliver the changes they promise, they've experienced bad Labour councils, they really dislike many radical socialist leaders (and believe such leaders despise them) and think that radical socialist espouse causes that are offensive or irrelevant.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @ExiledInScotland said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > >
    > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > >
    > >
    > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    >
    > Hold on. Brexit supporting media? Where is that exactly? I don't get a newspaper these days other than The Times on Saturday. For my news I have the BBC and Sky, plus here. I don't see much Brexit supporting media?

    The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express and the Sun. It is not just the printed copy but their online presence as well. Remember some of these papers called dissenting MPS traitors FFS! They whip people up into a hysteria about Brexit and how the UK must leave even if it is not in our interests to do so anymore....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 393
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > > >
    > > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Is there much substance to Chuka Umunna's thoughts; do they not reduce to: Farage stands in elections, campaigns politically and is a sort of democrat; people Chuka doesn't like much or understand, mostly political moderates, vote for both him and some of his central views in various ways; Chuka has different opinions from Farage and doesn't like losing; it is easy to picture Farage as an extremist demagogue even though he isn't; a free press has a diversity of colourful biases.
    > > >
    > > > No wiser. No better informed.
    > >
    > > As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.
    >
    > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....


    Not quite. We have a free media, a very free social media and a BBC which has been massively pro EU but had to be unbiased for a time.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    edited May 6
    > @algarkirk said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > > > >
    > > > > No wiser. No better informed.
    > > >
    > > > As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.
    > >
    > > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    >
    >
    > Not quite. We have a free media, a very free social media and a BBC which has been massively pro EU but had to be unbiased for a time.

    The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun are a free media but they choose to promote an extreme agenda that benefits nobody apart from Farage. All I am saying is strategically, those who oppose Brexit need to affect change on these Newspapers, if they want a different outcome. At the moment, the Brexit press are channelling their readership and the country into a situation a Lemming would relish.
  • John_McLeanJohn_McLean Posts: 56
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > Hard to see past Biden at the moment IMO - Sanders' vote plunging, everyone else bouncing up and down in the 5-12 range, Biden on 44. Last month's hot tiup Buttigeg is down to 2!
    >
    > https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

    Biden seems to be of a Hillary Clinton type performer on the hustings, cool and ritualistic, Sanders on the other hand is more of a Corbyn type in that he can enthuse audiences. Heck, he even stuffed two of Fox's best who thought they could crush him, even in a hand picked studio audience.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 2,208

    I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....

    This growing authoritarian tendency amongst the progressive left/remainers towards the media is disturbing. It's getting ever more book burner-y.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,727
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > > > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > > > > >
    > > > > > No wiser. No better informed.
    > > > >
    > > > > As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.
    > > >
    > > > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    > >
    > >
    > > Not quite. We have a free media, a very free social media and a BBC which has been massively pro EU but had to be unbiased for a time.
    >
    > The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun are a free media but they choose to promote an extreme agenda that benefits nobody apart from Farage. All I am saying is strategically, those who oppose Brexit need to affect change on these Newspapers, if they want a different outcome. At the moment, the Brexit press are channelling their readership and the country into a situation a Lemming would relish.

    And there are no strawberries in the shops.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @another_richard said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > > > > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > No wiser. No better informed.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.
    > > > >
    > > > > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Not quite. We have a free media, a very free social media and a BBC which has been massively pro EU but had to be unbiased for a time.
    > >
    > > The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun are a free media but they choose to promote an extreme agenda that benefits nobody apart from Farage. All I am saying is strategically, those who oppose Brexit need to affect change on these Newspapers, if they want a different outcome. At the moment, the Brexit press are channelling their readership and the country into a situation a Lemming would relish.
    >
    > And there are no strawberries in the shops.

    The UK has not left the EU as yet. Besides the UK will probably get non-European Immigrants to come and pick the Strawberries!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,727
    > @brokenwheel said:
    > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    >
    > This growing authoritarian tendency amongst the progressive left/remainers towards the media is disturbing. It's getting ever more book burner-y.

    Indeed but its always fun to see who the tin pot fascists are when 'people like them' don't do as they are told.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @brokenwheel said:
    > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    >
    > This growing authoritarian tendency amongst the progressive left/remainers towards the media is disturbing. It's getting ever more book burner-y.

    What is authoritarian about challenging the output of media? I have not said ban them or burn their newspapers. If you don't confront a bully it will just take over your life and make it miserable. The Brexit supporting press are propagating an outcome for the UK which will make it poorer, less able to project power on the world stage and leave the UK's population with less opportunities.
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 975
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
    > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > >
    > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > >
    > > Umunna is a busted flush. He'll be out of a job come the next GE, and that'll be no loss to public life whatsoever.
    >
    > I wouldn't write him off just yet! He has charisma. Some sort of progressive tactical alliance could happen yet in the next GE. Rebuilding representation for the centre ground is not an overnight job and it takes some time. The very press that gives Farage unmerited attention prejudices thought on how the moderates will fight back.

    Chuka is insufferably smug. Sadly for him, I suspect the British people won't love him as much as he loves himself....

    It will be interesting to see if he stands in Streatham again or tries somewhere more promising
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 768
    > @rural_voter said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > >
    > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > >
    > >
    > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    >
    > ______________________________
    >
    > Good luck with the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation. I used to find BBC R4 News fine but the bias towards reporting Farage not the Lib.Dems or Greens and 'leave' not 'remain'-related points is getting tedious. (Other programmes like AQ have stayed OK.)
    >
    > I was now going to reply to another quote as we used to do. But I don't dare do that until Vanilla's fixed.
    >
    > Vanilla's not the only 'improvement' to make things worse. Firefox has stopped working with Adblock or with the search engine Duckduckgo (which doesn't track you). A Firefox update is 'promised'. Is Vanilla promising one?

    You can now update Firefox to 66.0.4 via Help, About, and that fixes the problem.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,727
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @another_richard said
    > >
    > > And there are no strawberries in the shops.
    >
    > The UK has not left the EU as yet. Besides the UK will probably get non-European Immigrants to come and pick the Strawberries!
    >

    We were told that there were no strawberries in 2017 because of Brexit:



    That was a lie wasn't it.

    Should the LibDems be allowed to continue or do we need to 'affect change' on their extreme agenda ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,241
    I had the misfortune to see Sir Keith Joseph on the 1979 election coverage. What a sinister, evil fecker he was.

    I was 12 at the time of that election. Little did I know that I would live through all of my teens and twenties before we would see a change of government.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,411
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > > > > @algarkirk said:
    > > > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > > > > >
    > > > > > No wiser. No better informed.
    > > > >
    > > > > As a potential CUK voter, I want to hear what they are for, how they think we can move on from here. Instead this piece is just another criticism, partly valid, partly exaggerated that does not move us forward, does not change peoples minds, and if anything works as excuse for the two divided groups to stay in their echo chambers ignoring the other half of the country.
    > > >
    > > > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    > >
    > >
    > > Not quite. We have a free media, a very free social media and a BBC which has been massively pro EU but had to be unbiased for a time.
    >
    > The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun are a free media but they choose to promote an extreme agenda that benefits nobody apart from Farage. All I am saying is strategically, those who oppose Brexit need to affect change on these Newspapers, if they want a different outcome. At the moment, the Brexit press are channelling their readership and the country into a situation a Lemming would relish.

    Nobody is compelled to read such media.

    Strange as it may seem, many people in the UK dislike the EU.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,727
    > @SandyRentool said:
    > I had the misfortune to see Sir Keith Joseph on the 1979 election coverage. What a sinister, evil fecker he was.
    >
    > I was 12 at the time of that election. Little did I know that I would live through all of my teens and twenties before we would see a change of government.

    He looked like he was a white cat short of being a James Bond villain.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @another_richard said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > @another_richard said
    > > >
    > > > And there are no strawberries in the shops.
    > >
    > > The UK has not left the EU as yet. Besides the UK will probably get non-European Immigrants to come and pick the Strawberries!
    > >
    >
    > We were told that there were no strawberries in 2017 because of Brexit:
    >
    >
    >
    > That was a lie wasn't it.
    >
    > Should the LibDems be allowed to continue or do we need to 'affect change' on their extreme agenda ?

    Yes, he was wrong. But not 100% incorrect as some farmers have found it more difficult to recruit people to do these jobs even in the EU. I am not going to get involved any further in your tedious exchanges on Strawberries or Rotherham traveller communities....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 54,000
    Harris is helped by the fact the California primary will be earlier this year but she still needs a reasonable performance in Iowa and New Hampshire to still be in contention at that stage
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,143
    Evening all :)

    The housing problem isn't just about building or not building houses. It's a crisis of land management, planning, place, infrastructure and a raft of other things which can be grouped round a central question: "How are we going to live in the mid 21st century?"

    Housing isn't about having a place to eat, sleep or relax. It's about "place" - the whole notion of the environment around which and in which you eat, sleep, work, relax, play etc. The concept of separating these activities - you dwell in one place, you work in another place, you get entertained at other places comes from an age and a time when these activities were socially and culturally demarcated. The High Street was for shopping not for living (for the most part). You lived in the suburbs in your house alongside houses which looked the same - little boxes, little boxes etc.

    All of that was predicated on personal and available transport - you had a car or you took the bus or the train. That "life model" based on suburban living is breaking down and we need to think about how we live and work in different ways.

    I'd argue part of the political crisis of our time stems from the recognition the lifestyle model we have enjoyed since before WW2 is changing and whether from AI or from other factors, the security we enjoyed at home, at work in society and in our communities is being undermined and a lot of what we see is a backlash against that. There will always be affection for a "golden yesterday" if an uncertain tomorrow looms.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 54,000
    > @kinabalu said:
    > I ran across an excellent piece in the NS by my current MP Gloria de Piero about that this morning.
    > https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt
    >
    > Thanks. Will read. And have now checked out the ones linked on the PT by ‘ralphmalph’. Which proved to be excellent pieces. Insightful and persuasive on why many of the WWC in England voted Leave in 2016. Years of being marginalized, ignored, patronized - demonized even. Excluded from the fruits of economic growth in the good times, the prime target of austerity in the bad. Sick of the system so let’s fuck it up. Oh look, that twat Cameron is telling us to vote Remain. You know what, I’m gonna …
    >
    > BUT:
    >
    > I had already got with that programme. Years ago, I did. The great Owen Jones in his breakthrough book ‘Chavs’ was brilliant on it. It rings true to me and it is why I am loved up on the prospect of a radical, socialist leaning Labour government – because for all the flaws of Jeremy Corbyn as a leader his project is about prioritizing the badly off.
    >
    > So the same question is still torturing me –
    >
    > OK they voted Leave because - generically and with apols to the Stranglers, “Something Better Change” - understood - but why now, here in 2019, are WWC leavers flocking to No Deal Brexit and the likes of Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg, Redwood etc (to a man, right-wing careerists or free market ideologues who do not give a shit on a spit about the oiks) rather than this manifestation of Labour, who do care about them, about reducing inequality, and are proposing policies which make it clear that they do?
    >
    > The only way I can answer this with any logic is to conclude either that (i) they are enamoured with nationalism and matters of identity rather than economic and class self-interest, or (ii) they are not thinking clearly. Neither conclusion is particularly wholesome – hence my mental anguish.

    As I pointed out before they are not, Labour won unskilled working class and unemployed DEs at the last general election who are more welfare dependent. They may have voted Leave as well in 2016 but they still voted Labour in 2017.


    It was slightly higher earning less welfare dependant skilled white working class C2s who both voted Leave in 2016 and then voted Tory in 2017 and will be strong Brexit Party voters in the European elections. There is nothing remotely 'illogical' about that!
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @GarethoftheVale2 said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
    > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > O/T Brexit party and Farage 'hype' called out by Chuka Umunna.
    > > > >
    > > > > I think this is a sensible move by Chuka but he needs to get it on Sky TV and BBC News to raise questions in peoples mind about the blatant propaganda being distributed by the Brexit supporting media. I think someone like Ken Clarke should throw his considerable political weight into this debate in citing the appalling way these Brexit supporting papers are acting against their readers interests.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/farage-brexit-markle-baby-boy-chuka-umunna-change-uk-european-elections-a8901631.html
    > > >
    > > > Umunna is a busted flush. He'll be out of a job come the next GE, and that'll be no loss to public life whatsoever.
    > >
    > > I wouldn't write him off just yet! He has charisma. Some sort of progressive tactical alliance could happen yet in the next GE. Rebuilding representation for the centre ground is not an overnight job and it takes some time. The very press that gives Farage unmerited attention prejudices thought on how the moderates will fight back.
    >
    > Chuka is insufferably smug. Sadly for him, I suspect the British people won't love him as much as he loves himself....
    >
    > It will be interesting to see if he stands in Streatham again or tries somewhere more promising

    I was watching the 1979 GE coverage on the parliament channel earlier and David Owen was on the TV. Chuka reminds me of Owen to some extent. Owen, represented a marginal seat, far more marginal than the seat Umunna currently represents in parliament. My point is Owen managed to retain his seat for the rest of his career, although he did not contest 1992 so we don't know how he would effectively managed as an independent (The SDP was such a diminished beast by this time due to the Liberal - SDP merger). So, Chuka might be able to hold on if he is lucky.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 1,454
    > @SandyRentool said:
    > I had the misfortune to see Sir Keith Joseph on the 1979 election coverage. What a sinister, evil fecker he was.
    >
    > I was 12 at the time of that election. Little did I know that I would live through all of my teens and twenties before we would see a change of government.

    _______________________________________________________

    Aka the Mad Monk, or Maggie's Mentor. Her other one was Enoch Powell.

    The Mad Monk once made a speech suggesting that the lower classes should have fewer children.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 2,208
    edited May 6

    > @brokenwheel said:

    > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....

    >

    > This growing authoritarian tendency amongst the progressive left/remainers towards the media is disturbing. It's getting ever more book burner-y.



    What is authoritarian about challenging the output of media? I have not said ban them or burn their newspapers. If you don't confront a bully it will just take over your life and make it miserable. The Brexit supporting press are propagating an outcome for the UK which will make it poorer, less able to project power on the world stage and leave the UK's population with less opportunities.

    You are arguing for a campaign to remove opinions you don't like from even being aired by media.

    Did you seriously just ask what is authoritarian about that?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 393
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @brokenwheel said:
    > > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    > >
    > > This growing authoritarian tendency amongst the progressive left/remainers towards the media is disturbing. It's getting ever more book burner-y.
    >
    > What is authoritarian about challenging the output of media? I have not said ban them or burn their newspapers. If you don't confront a bully it will just take over your life and make it miserable. The Brexit supporting press are propagating an outcome for the UK which will make it poorer, less able to project power on the world stage and leave the UK's population with less opportunities.

    Generally politicians complaining about the media (on all sides) come across negatively whether they are right or wrong. Politicians are not in a great place to judge if the media is biased or not because of their own vested interests and spending lots of time with people of similar views.

    If ChangeUK have a positive message to put across the media will broadcast it - I have been looking for one and there is nothing beyond being anti Brexit and having nice values.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,171

    > @SandyRentool said:

    > I had the misfortune to see Sir Keith Joseph on the 1979 election coverage. What a sinister, evil fecker he was.

    >

    > I was 12 at the time of that election. Little did I know that I would live through all of my teens and twenties before we would see a change of government.



    _______________________________________________________



    Aka the Mad Monk, or Maggie's Mentor. Her other one was Enoch Powell.



    The Mad Monk once made a speech suggesting that the lower classes should have fewer children.

    He also famously asked why the children in whatever they called SEND schools in 1980 were not doing their Greek vocab.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 393
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @brokenwheel said:
    > > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    > >
    > > This growing authoritarian tendency amongst the progressive left/remainers towards the media is disturbing. It's getting ever more book burner-y.
    >
    > What is authoritarian about challenging the output of media? I have not said ban them or burn their newspapers. If you don't confront a bully it will just take over your life and make it miserable. The Brexit supporting press are propagating an outcome for the UK which will make it poorer, less able to project power on the world stage and leave the UK's population with less opportunities.



    A free press and social media is what it is. If I only drew attention to the BBC, the Guardian, The FT, The Mirror, The Economist and the Independent I could refer to a 'Remain' hegemony. But it would not be true. It's only part of the picture. The pro Brexit media is only part of the picture too. It is people who choose what they read, not publishers. Furthermore the pro Remain material on social media is almost infinite, and often brilliantly and comprehensibly argued. Long live the free press!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 3,901
    Sean_F said:

    > @kinabalu said:

    > I ran across an excellent piece in the NS by my current MP Gloria de Piero about that this morning.

    > https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

    >

    >

    >

    > BUT:

    >

    > .

    >

    > So the same question is still torturing me –

    >

    > ?

    >

    > The only way I can answer this with any logic is to conclude either that (i) they are enamoured with nationalism and matters of identity rather than economic and class self-interest, or (ii) they are not thinking clearly. Neither conclusion is particularly wholesome – hence my mental anguish.



    Why not ask them? We can speculate why people vote as they do, but there's no substitute for doing one's own research. If you want my guesses why a lot of poor people don't vote for radical socialists (and they are only guesses) I'd suggest they don't believe radical socialists can deliver the changes they promise, they've experienced bad Labour councils, they really dislike many radical socialist leaders (and believe such leaders despise them) and think that radical socialist espouse causes that are offensive or irrelevant.

    Well I don't fall into the income bracket any longer, but I have spent long enough on it and still have a family of DEs to think about to be pretty confident my view is as good as anyone's. The biggest thing they worry about is simply cashflow. It absorbs all your thought. So the Labour message of social support is a very welcome one - but the Tory tax cut one is very tempting. As to demagogues like Farage - one of the things that being on a low income is you become invisible. Nobody much wants to talk to you. You have to be quite aggressive to make your presence felt. So somebody sounding off in a cause you sympathise with is something you like.

    Having said all that, people on low incomes are still people and vary just as much as everyone else. They have personalities, idiosyncracies, strengths and weaknesses, ups and downs. Some are conservative, some are liberal. They just don't have any fucking money.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,727
    > @The_Taxman said:
    > > @another_richard said:
    > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > @another_richard said
    > > > >
    > > > > And there are no strawberries in the shops.
    > > >
    > > > The UK has not left the EU as yet. Besides the UK will probably get non-European Immigrants to come and pick the Strawberries!
    > > >
    > >
    > > We were told that there were no strawberries in 2017 because of Brexit:
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > That was a lie wasn't it.
    > >
    > > Should the LibDems be allowed to continue or do we need to 'affect change' on their extreme agenda ?
    >
    > Yes, he was wrong. But not 100% incorrect as some farmers have found it more difficult to recruit people to do these jobs even in the EU. I am not going to get involved any further in your tedious exchanges on Strawberries or Rotherham traveller communities....
    >
    >
    >
    Perhaps you would prefer to 'affect change' on anyone pointing out inconvenient facts.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 393
    edited May 6
    > @HYUFD said:
    > > @kinabalu said:
    > > I ran across an excellent piece in the NS by my current MP Gloria de Piero about that this morning.
    > > https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt
    > >
    > > Thanks. Will read. And have now checked out the ones linked on the PT by ‘ralphmalph’. Which proved to be excellent pieces. Insightful and persuasive on why many of the WWC in England voted Leave in 2016. Years of being marginalized, ignored, patronized - demonized even. Excluded from the fruits of economic growth in the good times, the prime target of austerity in the bad. Sick of the system so let’s fuck it up. Oh look, that twat Cameron is telling us to vote Remain. You know what, I’m gonna …
    > >
    > > BUT:
    > >
    > > I had already got with that programme. Years ago, I did. The great Owen Jones in his breakthrough book ‘Chavs’ was brilliant on it. It rings true to me and it is why I am loved up on the prospect of a radical, socialist leaning Labour government – because for all the flaws of Jeremy Corbyn as a leader his project is about prioritizing the badly off.
    > >
    > > So the same question is still torturing me –
    > >
    > > OK they voted Leave because - generically and with apols to the Stranglers, “Something Better Change” - understood - but why now, here in 2019, are WWC leavers flocking to No Deal Brexit and the likes of Farage, Johnson, Rees Mogg, Redwood etc (to a man, right-wing careerists or free market ideologues who do not give a shit on a spit about the oiks) rather than this manifestation of Labour, who do care about them, about reducing inequality, and are proposing policies which make it clear that they do?
    > >
    > > The only way I can answer this with any logic is to conclude either that (i) they are enamoured with nationalism and matters of identity rather than economic and class self-interest, or (ii) they are not thinking clearly. Neither conclusion is particularly wholesome – hence my mental anguish.
    >
    > As I pointed out before they are not, Labour won unskilled working class and unemployed DEs at the last general election who are more welfare dependent. They may have voted Leave as well in 2016 but they still voted Labour in 2017.
    >
    >
    > It was slightly higher earning less welfare dependant skilled white working class C2s who both voted Leave in 2016 and then voted Tory in 2017 and will be strong Brexit Party voters in the European elections. There is nothing remotely 'illogical' about that!
    >
    >
    >

    On this one HYUFD is right, Corbyn is good (economically) for the precariat but bad (economically) for the working class. The middle class would do very well from Corbyn economically as well from things like tuition fees. Tax rises on workers to pay for benefits and higher education does not help working people (whether they are needed or not is a separate question but it is lazy thinking to assume Corbyn=working class saviour).
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @brokenwheel said:
    > > @brokenwheel said:
    >
    > > I think it is important to understand why Brexit happened in terms of how the debate was framed. The Brexit supporting media tipped the balance and to cancel Brexit, you have to attempt to change the output of the Brexit supporting media to a more neutral position. An analogy I like to use is that of water born disease in centuries past. The only way to stop the disease is to supply new water, drinking from stagnant pools will only result in the same disease and no progress. The Brexit supporting press desperately stick to the ridiculous position of an outcome that undermines Britain, removes opportunities for its people and results in lower living standards for all within the UK. It cannot be right for them to continue the narrative they do without them experiencing consequences....
    >
    > >
    >
    > > This growing authoritarian tendency amongst the progressive left/remainers towards the media is disturbing. It's getting ever more book burner-y.
    >
    >
    >
    > What is authoritarian about challenging the output of media? I have not said ban them or burn their newspapers. If you don't confront a bully it will just take over your life and make it miserable. The Brexit supporting press are propagating an outcome for the UK which will make it poorer, less able to project power on the world stage and leave the UK's population with less opportunities.
    >
    > You are arguing for a campaign to remove opinions you don't like from even being aired by media.
    >
    > Did you seriously just ask what is authoritarian about that?

    I am sorry I don't agree. Unless you challenge something you just get the same unhinged nonsense from the Brexit supporting media. Politicians challenge media outlets all the time and try to influence the agenda as Newspapers have also done the opposite to get their agenda enacted. It is just part of politics. If I was saying we should rise up and petrol bomb the newsagents, round up and exterminate all the journalists and blow up the newspaper presses then I could understand where you are coming from. I would be opposed to my last comments as you understandably would be! Brexit has really screwed up the minds of people, it is like people going on about democracy but not voting in elections...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 10,625
    Anyone betting on the baby's name?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 13,727
    > @stodge said:
    > Evening all :)
    >
    > The housing problem isn't just about building or not building houses. It's a crisis of land management, planning, place, infrastructure and a raft of other things which can be grouped round a central question: "How are we going to live in the mid 21st century?"
    >
    > Housing isn't about having a place to eat, sleep or relax. It's about "place" - the whole notion of the environment around which and in which you eat, sleep, work, relax, play etc. The concept of separating these activities - you dwell in one place, you work in another place, you get entertained at other places comes from an age and a time when these activities were socially and culturally demarcated. The High Street was for shopping not for living (for the most part). You lived in the suburbs in your house alongside houses which looked the same - little boxes, little boxes etc.
    >
    > All of that was predicated on personal and available transport - you had a car or you took the bus or the train. That "life model" based on suburban living is breaking down and we need to think about how we live and work in different ways.
    >
    > I'd argue part of the political crisis of our time stems from the recognition the lifestyle model we have enjoyed since before WW2 is changing and whether from AI or from other factors, the security we enjoyed at home, at work in society and in our communities is being undermined and a lot of what we see is a backlash against that. There will always be affection for a "golden yesterday" if an uncertain tomorrow looms.

    I think that's right.

    I'll add that while many are worried that they might lose that 'life model' there are others who fear they will never achieve it to begin with.

    There is something I refer to as 'middle class regression' where people from a middle class background and who have a middle class education are unable to get a middle class lifestyle and its attributes including home ownership.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 8,288
    tlg86 said:

    Anyone betting on the baby's name?

    If it isn't Wayne, I shall be vexed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 2,426
    Sean_F said:


    Why not ask them? We can speculate why people vote as they do, but there's no substitute for doing one's own research. If you want my guesses why a lot of poor people don't vote for radical socialists (and they are only guesses) I'd suggest they don't believe radical socialists can deliver the changes they promise, they've experienced bad Labour councils, they really dislike many radical socialist leaders (and believe such leaders despise them) and think that radical socialist espouse causes that are offensive or irrelevant.

    Those answers are convincing and are also fully compatible with my baleful suspicion of them being nationalistic and not thinking clearly.

    Whatever, Labour must sort this out. There seems little point in scraping into office off the back of poncy bourgoise sentiment when the proletariat are not at all keen.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,518
    MattW said:

    I'd call that questioning by Kamala Harris "Lawyer's Questioning" rather than forensic - she is trying to create a black-white divide in a world of grey and dump her opponent on the wrong side.

    Except that in Barr’s case (let alone that of Trump), it is black and white.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-would-have-been-charged-with-obstruction-were-he-not-president-hundreds-of-former-federal-prosecutors-assert/2019/05/06/e4946a1a-7006-11e9-9f06-5fc2ee80027a_story.html
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,518
    tlg86 said:

    Anyone betting on the baby's name?

    Anyone give a flying fnck ?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 44
    > @Nigelb said:
    > Anyone betting on the baby's name?
    >
    > Anyone give a flying fnck ?

    Royalist arse lickers, which this website has plenty of
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 54,000
    > @Nigelb said:
    > Anyone betting on the baby's name?
    >
    > Anyone give a flying fnck ?

    > @Nigelb said:
    > Anyone betting on the baby's name?
    >
    > Anyone give a flying fnck ?

    Well it is presently leading the news not only here but in the US, France and Australia too so I would imagine a fair few do
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 54,000
    > @another_richard said:
    > > @stodge said:
    > > Evening all :)
    > >
    > > The housing problem isn't just about building or not building houses. It's a crisis of land management, planning, place, infrastructure and a raft of other things which can be grouped round a central question: "How are we going to live in the mid 21st century?"
    > >
    > > Housing isn't about having a place to eat, sleep or relax. It's about "place" - the whole notion of the environment around which and in which you eat, sleep, work, relax, play etc. The concept of separating these activities - you dwell in one place, you work in another place, you get entertained at other places comes from an age and a time when these activities were socially and culturally demarcated. The High Street was for shopping not for living (for the most part). You lived in the suburbs in your house alongside houses which looked the same - little boxes, little boxes etc.
    > >
    > > All of that was predicated on personal and available transport - you had a car or you took the bus or the train. That "life model" based on suburban living is breaking down and we need to think about how we live and work in different ways.
    > >
    > > I'd argue part of the political crisis of our time stems from the recognition the lifestyle model we have enjoyed since before WW2 is changing and whether from AI or from other factors, the security we enjoyed at home, at work in society and in our communities is being undermined and a lot of what we see is a backlash against that. There will always be affection for a "golden yesterday" if an uncertain tomorrow looms.
    >
    > I think that's right.
    >
    > I'll add that while many are worried that they might lose that 'life model' there are others who fear they will never achieve it to begin with.
    >
    > There is something I refer to as 'middle class regression' where people from a middle class background and who have a middle class education are unable to get a middle class lifestyle and its attributes including home ownership.
    >

    By 40 most people are still homeowners even if no longer by 30
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,171
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anyone betting on the baby's name?

    Anyone give a flying fnck ?
    The Daily Express. It's almost certainly lost millions having to reset the front page after it became apparent the name wasn't 'Diana.'
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,880
    CatMan said:

    > @Nigelb said:

    > Anyone betting on the baby's name?

    >

    > Anyone give a flying fnck ?



    Royalist arse lickers, which this website has plenty of

    We will now have flowering meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children dance and laugh and play with gumdrop smiles.
    :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,880
    HYUFD said:

    > @Nigelb said:

    > Anyone betting on the baby's name?

    >

    > Anyone give a flying fnck ?



    > @Nigelb said:

    > Anyone betting on the baby's name?

    >

    > Anyone give a flying fnck ?



    Well it is presently leading the news not only here but in the US, France and Australia too so I would imagine a fair few do

    Monarchy = Socialism!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,171
    Trump is handing Higgins' arse to him here.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,411
    > @Nigelb said:
    > Anyone betting on the baby's name?
    >
    > Anyone give a flying fnck ?

    Frodo.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 11,518
    > @ydoethur said:
    > Trump is handing Higgins' arse to him here.

    An unconventional gambit in snooker ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 393
    > @HYUFD said:
    > > @another_richard said:
    > > > @stodge said:
    > > > Evening all :)
    > > >
    > > > The housing problem isn't just about building or not building houses. It's a crisis of land management, planning, place, infrastructure and a raft of other things which can be grouped round a central question: "How are we going to live in the mid 21st century?"
    > > >
    > > > Housing isn't about having a place to eat, sleep or relax. It's about "place" - the whole notion of the environment around which and in which you eat, sleep, work, relax, play etc. The concept of separating these activities - you dwell in one place, you work in another place, you get entertained at other places comes from an age and a time when these activities were socially and culturally demarcated. The High Street was for shopping not for living (for the most part). You lived in the suburbs in your house alongside houses which looked the same - little boxes, little boxes etc.
    > > >
    > > > All of that was predicated on personal and available transport - you had a car or you took the bus or the train. That "life model" based on suburban living is breaking down and we need to think about how we live and work in different ways.
    > > >
    > > > I'd argue part of the political crisis of our time stems from the recognition the lifestyle model we have enjoyed since before WW2 is changing and whether from AI or from other factors, the security we enjoyed at home, at work in society and in our communities is being undermined and a lot of what we see is a backlash against that. There will always be affection for a "golden yesterday" if an uncertain tomorrow looms.
    > >
    > > I think that's right.
    > >
    > > I'll add that while many are worried that they might lose that 'life model' there are others who fear they will never achieve it to begin with.
    > >
    > > There is something I refer to as 'middle class regression' where people from a middle class background and who have a middle class education are unable to get a middle class lifestyle and its attributes including home ownership.
    > >
    >
    > By 40 most people are still homeowners even if no longer by 30

    If you count people on 30/35 year mortgages on leasehold flats with onerous terms as homeowners......with modern pay peaking around 40 not sure they will ever get to the stage of fully owning them even by 70
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 1,332
    > @another_richard said:
    > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > @another_richard said:
    > > > > @The_Taxman said:
    > > > > > @another_richard said
    > > > > >
    > > > > > And there are no strawberries in the shops.
    > > > >
    > > > > The UK has not left the EU as yet. Besides the UK will probably get non-European Immigrants to come and pick the Strawberries!
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > We were told that there were no strawberries in 2017 because of Brexit:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > That was a lie wasn't it.
    > > >
    > > > Should the LibDems be allowed to continue or do we need to 'affect change' on their extreme agenda ?
    > >
    > > Yes, he was wrong. But not 100% incorrect as some farmers have found it more difficult to recruit people to do these jobs even in the EU. I am not going to get involved any further in your tedious exchanges on Strawberries or Rotherham traveller communities....
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > Perhaps you would prefer to 'affect change' on anyone pointing out inconvenient facts.

    No, the Brexit supporting press don't point out facts they just peddle anti-EU propaganda without any statistical underpinning. That is fine, that is their narrative but I as a consumer of their media have the right to oppose what they produce if I so wish. I have an independent mind, I investigate things. If I or a politician want to challenge the type of output being produced by large media entities. I don't see a problem with that. You are opposed to that because you support Brexit, that is your choice as it is mine to be anti-Brexit. I think media have a responsibility to their readership, the Brexit supporting media do not seem to be underpinning their output on economic or social reality, instead they focus on nationalistic rhetoric that will leave their readership even more frustrated. For example European immigrants being replaced by non-European immigrants, the reason for this is even if the UK economy is not performing well. There will still be Labour shortages for some work, the pull of a £9 minimum wage will be immense to an individual on £1 a day in a much less developed economy.
This discussion has been closed.