> Rory-mania on pb dates from that curious time when any old soldier was proposed as a future party leader, normally with a note about a good back-story. Dan Jarvis was one for Labour.
Military people often seem to get talked up in politics, but then it doesn't happen. Wesley Clark was another one.
That said, I'm endorsing Dura Ace for any office he chooses to run for.
I can't imagine any pb.com regular less suited to representative politics than me but the sentiment is appreciated.
Also, my MoD file is as thick as a fucking Harry Potter book and contains enough material to end 10 political careers even by the standards of these feverish times.
> @isam said: > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party. > > > > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy. > > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below.
Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored?
The InfoWar revelations about Farage could prove deadly. It's one thing being the un-PC funnyman - a sort of political Jim Davidson; it's quite another embracing the creepy world of alt-right conspiracy obsessions and paranoia. Something about Nigel just died.
> I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
>
>
>
> Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
>
> Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below.
Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored?
Richard criticised what he said, but the article in the Guardian and the criticism from the Jewish Deputies that followed relied on shouting out what the host has said and done then pointing at Farage.
This tactic is used on PB daily and it is childish and tiresome.
> Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
IIRC Dura Ace, who claims (I think) to have some experience of him, doesn't rate him that highly.
However, I may be wrong, and if so I'm sure someone will correct me!
I didn't know him personally but I was present when the province he was governing ended up in a sea of flames and blood.
> @radsatser said: > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party. > > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy. * "Dear radsatser, How should we deal with Nigel Farage then? Yours sincerely The Chattering Classes"
Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message?
> @brokenwheel said: > > @radsatser said: > > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party. > > > > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy. > * > "Dear radsatser, > How should we deal with Nigel Farage then? > Yours sincerely > The Chattering Classes" > > Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message? > > But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
You mean the man who has failed SEVEN times to become an MP and is only in the position he is because the stupid LAB government in 1999 adopted the closed list rather than open list system for the Euro elections.
> @isam said: > > @isam said: > > > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party. > > > > > > > > > > > > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy. > > > > > > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes. > > > > It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below. > > > > Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored? > > Richard criticised what he said, but the article in the Guardian and the criticism from the Jewish Deputies that followed relied on shouting out what the host has said and done then pointing at Farage. > > This tactic is used on PB daily and it is childish and tiresome.
A politician has a choice about who he/she associates with. It is perfectly fair to point out the choices a politician makes. Of course the views of an interviewer are not the views of the politician he interviews. But if a politician consistently chooses to associate with people and groups on the extremes then that is a relevant fact about his moral and political choices. And a politician's moral and political choices are a very important guide to that politician and his policies.
> Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
*
I get your general point - about guilt by association - but in this case, with the association being Alex Jones, who is either clinically deranged or pretending to be in order to make a living, the charge is well merited.
And I'm not saying this because I'm anti Farage. For example, if Richard Burgon were to sit down for a cosy one on one about the New World Order with David Icke, I would be calling him out on it. More than that, I would be wanting Jeremy to sack him from the shadow cabinet.
> @Stark_Dawning said: > The InfoWar revelations about Farage could prove deadly. It's one thing being the un-PC funnyman - a sort of political Jim Davidson; it's quite another embracing the creepy world of alt-right conspiracy obsessions and paranoia. Something about Nigel just died.
People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
> > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
> >
> > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
> *
> "Dear radsatser,
> How should we deal with Nigel Farage then?
> Yours sincerely
> The Chattering Classes"
>
> Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message?
>
> But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
You mean the man who has failed SEVEN times to become an MP and is only in the position he is because the stupid LAB government in 1999 adopted the closed list rather than open list system for the Euro elections.
Then why are the progressive left so afraid of him that they're complaining that he even has a right to speak on national television?
> @kinabalu said: > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
> > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
>
> >
>
> > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
>
>
>
> It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below.
>
>
>
> Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored?
>
> Richard criticised what he said, but the article in the Guardian and the criticism from the Jewish Deputies that followed relied on shouting out what the host has said and done then pointing at Farage.
>
> This tactic is used on PB daily and it is childish and tiresome.
A politician has a choice about who he/she associates with. It is perfectly fair to point out the choices a politician makes. Of course the views of an interviewer are not the views of the politician he interviews. But if a politician consistently chooses to associate with people and groups on the extremes then that is a relevant fact about his moral and political choices. And a politician's moral and political choices are a very important guide to that politician and his policies.
Politicians from outside the big 2 parties need all the publicity they can get, so obviously can’t be as fussy about who they are interviewed by and where. The only time I have seen this Alex Jones was when he was grilled by Andrew Neil on the BBC. There would have been other politicians in the room, “Oh GOD how can they share a platform with him?!?!”
I remember Stewart Jackson replying to Iain Dale that he'd be staying in the Conservative Party, as some people had to clear up the mess once the current lot (in charge) had gone.
Edited extra bit: I saw that on Twitter, incidentally.
> > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
> >
> > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
> *
> "Dear radsatser,
> How should we deal with Nigel Farage then?
> Yours sincerely
> The Chattering Classes"
>
> Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message?
>
> But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
You mean the man who has failed SEVEN times to become an MP and is only in the position he is because the stupid LAB government in 1999 adopted the closed list rather than open list system for the Euro elections.
> @isam said: > I > @isam said: > > > > @isam said: > > > > > > > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored? > > > > > > Richard criticised what he said, but the article in the Guardian and the criticism from the Jewish Deputies that followed relied on shouting out what the host has said and done then pointing at Farage. > > > > > > This tactic is used on PB daily and it is childish and tiresome. > > > > A politician has a choice about who he/she associates with. It is perfectly fair to point out the choices a politician makes. Of course the views of an interviewer are not the views of the politician he interviews. But if a politician consistently chooses to associate with people and groups on the extremes then that is a relevant fact about his moral and political choices. And a politician's moral and political choices are a very important guide to that politician and his policies. > > Politicians from outside the big 2 parties need all the publicity they can get, so obviously can’t be as fussy about who they are interviewed by and where. The only time I have seen this Alex Jones was when he was grilled by Andrew Neil on the BBC. There would have been other politicians in the room, “Oh GOD how can they share a platform with him?!?!”
Don't be silly. Farage could get interviewed by any mainstream interviewer if he wanted, particularly in the US given his friendship with Trump. The same here. I rather suspect that the reason he doesn't give such interviews is because they would be tougher on him.
I think bad ideas should be defeated by good ideas. But I don't accept your claim that it is somehow silly to attack a politician for what he says and the choices he makes about who he chooses to associate with.
> @GIN1138 said: > > @dr_spyn said: > > Guido has a rumour that Stewart Jackson might run in Peterborough for The Brexit Party. Remains to be seen if he does. > > That would be a mistake for BP. > > For this seat they need someone outside of the political scene who can play the corruption/"plague on all your houses" card for all its worth.
> @GIN1138 said: > > @dr_spyn said: > > Guido has a rumour that Stewart Jackson might run in Peterborough for The Brexit Party. Remains to be seen if he does. > > That would be a mistake for BP. > > For this seat they need someone outside of the political scene who can play the corruption/"plague on all your houses" card for all its worth.
Not anyone that's been slurping from the EU gravy train for the last 20 years then. Well done Nige for avoiding that bear trap.
> @kinabalu said: > > @isam said: > > > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes. > > * > > I get your general point - about guilt by association - but in this case, with the association being Alex Jones, who is either clinically deranged or pretending to be in order to make a living, the charge is well merited. > > And I'm not saying this because I'm anti Farage. For example, if Richard Burgon were to sit down for a cosy one on one about the New World Order with David Icke, I would be calling him out on it. More than that, I would be wanting Jeremy to sack him from the shadow cabinet.
To be honest if we are going to criticise politicians for going on Press TV or Russia Today or Al Jazeera, then we should criticise Farage for going on Infowars. The host is clearly a nut Job who says outrageous stuff to make money. He may believe it who knows. It is poor judgement from any politician to engage.
Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US?
Honestly, it's just sad.
Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
> @Cyclefree said: > Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. > > Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps.
> @Cyclefree said: > Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. > > Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
Mrs T did have the strong advantage, though, of being, like Mrs May 'one of us'; one of the 'sort of people' who will vote Conservative through thick and thin. Although, of course Thatcher's father was a Methodist with liberal tendencies.
> Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader.
>
> Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps.
None of them are challenging though. They’re whining to their friends in the Telegraph and Sunday Times (although there will be less of that now...) while hoping somebody else does the challenging.
> @brokenwheel said: > > Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message? > > But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
*
But the message "the people against the elites" gives you nothing to hit at, other than to find a PC way of saying "this how demagogues and chancers always pitch it, the appeal is to dumbos, please don't be one of them."
Also, the man IS the message in many ways. Brand Farage is powerful. He is a political star.
> @matt said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. > > > > > > Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through. > > > > I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps. > > None of them are challenging though. They’re whining to their friends in the Telegraph and Sunday Times (although there will be less of that now...) while hoping somebody else does the challenging.
I didn't say they weren't pathetic challengers. But it is startling to hear a Cabinet Minister actually backing government policy (where there is any such thing of course) these days.
> > > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
> >
>
> > It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See >
Most of the interviews in the Guardian scoop were between 7-10 years ago. He has been interviewed by every major interviewer here since, who are you saying he doesn’t give such interviews to?
> @Nemtynakht said: > > @kinabalu said: > > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit? > > He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
Actually I have seem him down in the pub having a pint with the locals following a walk in the hills. In Cumbria.
He seemed to me to be remarkably unaffected for a politician. Rather more than those politicians constantly being photographed with pints in their hands.
> @Nemtynakht said: > > @kinabalu said: > > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit? > > He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
I'd definitely go for a point with Rory Stewart. I'd vote for him as well.
But then I read and hand-sold plenty of copies of 'The Places In Between' and 'Occupational Hazards' whilst running a bookshop, two outstanding non-fiction books he wrote regarding his time in Afghanistan and Iraq. The latter - together with Rajiv Chandrasekaran's 'Imperial Life in the Emerald City' - should be given to any f*ckwit politician who still believes that 'regime change' works.
(And if you really want to go back to first principles, read 'The Collapse: The Accidental Opening of the Berlin Wall' by Mary Elise Sarotte to understand exactly how the seeds of the regime change mentality were sown in the minds of Western policitians)
> Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message?
>
> But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
*
But the message "the people against the elites" gives you nothing to hit at, other than to find a PC way of saying "this how demagogues and chancers always pitch it, the appeal is to dumbos, please don't be one of them."
Also, the man IS the message in many ways. Brand Farage is powerful. He is a political star.
One can see in him how elected dictators arise. A strong sense of the enemy (and it is the enemy, they’re not people any more) being the other and a willingness to deceive, lie, be indifferent to moral turpitude and generally associate with anybody who will push his position forward.
> Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader.
>
> Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps.
It is noteworthy that some of the politicians that Theresa May has treated worst have been far more honourable in return. Philip Hammond is one example. Nicky Morgan is another.
> @Cyclefree said: > > @Nemtynakht said: > > > @kinabalu said: > > > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit? > > > > He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant. > > Actually I have seem him down in the pub having a pint with the locals following a walk in the hills. In Cumbria. > > He seemed to me to be remarkably unaffected for a politician. Rather more than those politicians constantly being photographed with pints in their hands.
Well I’ll happily change my mind but he has the geeky air of Milliband, and I’d be surprised if he turns out to be a man of the people. He is however admirable and not many Tories can point to service for the public good.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. > > > > > > Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through. > > > > I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps. > > It is noteworthy that some of the politicians that Theresa May has treated worst have been far more honourable in return. Philip Hammond is one example. Nicky Morgan is another.
Indeed. Her poor treatment of her colleagues is a very bad mark against her, the sign of a poor leader.
> @GIN1138 said: > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
> @edmundintokyo said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has... > > I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
Has Farage told us who is funding his Brexit party? A simple question after all. And simple to answer.
> @edmundintokyo said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has... > > I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
Farage was mentioned just once in the Mueller report, in passing, in relation to someone suggesting someone else talks to Farage because he knows someone who the Trump campaign might want to speak to.
Civility should be attempted at every turn. It'll stop one alienating one's friends, prevent potential foes from being provoked, and ensure that those you're about to stab in the back don't see it coming.
Whether from a mercenary or polite perspective, it makes sense.
[There are, of course, rare circumstances when other ways are appropriate].
> @Cyclefree said: > > @edmundintokyo said: > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has... > > > > I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics. > > Has Farage told us who is funding his Brexit party? A simple question after all. And simple to answer.
With the sensitivity and concern for others that have become his trademarks, Nige has said he's not going to reveal this because the donor would be "hounded" by the media in the lead-up to the European elections.
On topic: I can't see the party going for Rory Stewart in its current state. He's been quite impressive as one of the few ministers to come out batting for a sensible solution to the Brexit nightmare, but that alas counts against him. I hope his career progresses, though. (BTW: Has his courageous pledge to resign if prisons didn't improve now been conveniently palped?)
More generally, it seems to me that the Labour-Conservative talks on a way forward might have a better chance than I'd previously thought. Robert Peston says they have zero chance of success, which is a good sign, but there does seem to be some movement. If we assume that some kind of agreement to disagree is achieved, what happens next?
The consensus is that neither party would be able to get its MPs to vote for any fudge, and that probably Theresa May would get chucked out pronto. However, there's a snag to chucking her out: any replacement leader could only get the necessary support in the party by promising a 'harder' or even no-deal Brexit. How would that work? If he or she promised that, they'd be immediately stuffed by not being able to get support for it in parliament; the numbers don't change just because the leader changes. In fact, it would be harder for any new leader, selected on a platform of a harder Brexit than TM's, to get support from centrist and opposition MPs. The candidates must know that - are they going to lame-duck themselves from day one? Although the mechanism is opaque, the political logic for the Conservatives, including the wannabee leaders, points to doing a deal.
Labour's position is equally difficult,of course, so I'm not holding my breath. By maybe, just maybe, some kind of muddled fudge can be reached?
> @Nemtynakht said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > @Nemtynakht said: > > > > @kinabalu said: > > > > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit? > > > > > > He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant. > > > > Actually I have seem him down in the pub having a pint with the locals following a walk in the hills. In Cumbria. > > > > He seemed to me to be remarkably unaffected for a politician. Rather more than those politicians constantly being photographed with pints in their hands. > > Well I’ll happily change my mind but he has the geeky air of Milliband, and I’d be surprised if he turns out to be a man of the people. He is however admirable and not many Tories can point to service for the public good.
> @Stark_Dawning said: > Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US? > > Honestly, it's just sad. > > Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
> > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
>
> I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
Farage was mentioned just once in the Mueller report, in passing, in relation to someone suggesting someone else talks to Farage because he knows someone who the Trump campaign might want to speak to.
And that's it.
Kudos for your use of the word "someone". As if no one knows who Julian Assange is, a man who Nigel Farage then subsequently did visit. It would be lovely to know what they did discuss, but I fear that Nigel Farage will not be in a hurry to tell us.
> @Richard_Nabavi said: > However, there's a snag to chucking her out: any replacement leader could only get the necessary support in the party by promising a 'harder' or even no-deal Brexit. How would that work? If he or she promised that, they'd be immediately stuffed by not being able to get support for it in parliament; the numbers don't change just because the leader changes.
1) Win a leadership election promising renegotiation, say the EU would buckle because of your strength of purpose or something. I think this is what Boris is saying now. 2) Call a GE on the same platform and win 3) Go to Brussels to "renegotiate", get some nice chocolates 4) Pass TMay's deal
> @Richard_Nabavi said: > On topic: I can't see the party going for Rory Stewart in its current state. He's been quite impressive as one of the few ministers to come out batting for a sensible solution to the Brexit nightmare, but that alas counts against him. I hope his career progresses, though. (BTW: Has his courageous pledge to resign if prisons didn't improve now been conveniently palped?) > > More generally, it seems to me that the Labour-Conservative talks on a way forward might have a better chance than I'd previously thought. Robert Peston says they have zero chance of success, which is a good sign, but there does seem to be some movement. If we assume that some kind of agreement to disagree is achieved, what happens next? > > The consensus is that neither party would be able to get its MPs to vote for any fudge, and that probably Theresa May would get chucked out pronto. However, there's a snag to chucking her out: any replacement leader could only get the necessary support in the party by promising a 'harder' or even no-deal Brexit. How would that work? If he or she promised that, they'd be immediately stuffed by not being able to get support for it in parliament; the numbers don't change just because the leader changes. In fact, it would be harder for any new leader, selected on a platform of a harder Brexit than TM's, to get support from centrist and opposition MPs. The candidates must know that - are they going to lame-duck themselves from day one? Although the mechanism is opaque, the political logic for the Conservatives, including the wannabee leaders, points to doing a deal. > > Labour's position is equally difficult,of course, so I'm not holding my breath. By maybe, just maybe, some kind of muddled fudge can be reached?
A chance of some kind of muddled fudge, it fair gets the pulse racing,
> @edmundintokyo said: > > 1) Win a leadership election promising renegotiation, say the EU would buckle because of your strength of purpose or something. I think this is what Boris is saying now. > 2) Call a GE on the same platform and win > 3) Go to Brussels to "renegotiate", get some nice chocolates > 4) Pass TMay's deal
> @radsatser said: > @The uniondivvie > > "With the sensitivity and concern for others that has become his trademark, Nige has said he's not going to reveal this because the donor would be "hounded" by the media in the lead-up to the European elections." > > Are you divvie by nature as well as name. > > Farage has said the party has 85,000 supporters who have paid £25 each which equates to £2.1 million, he has also indicated that he has one donation of £100,000, details of which he will release in due course in keeping with the regualtions because the donor will be hounded by small minded people like you, who would make no attempt to question the funding of other parties. I wonder why? He has also opened up the parties Paypal account to the media. > > What he is clearly not going to do, is sing to the tune of others.
So we're not even allowed to quote what the great man says now?
Away and practice your sockpuppetry on someone who cares.
> @radsatser said: > @ kinabalu > > I would have thought the first thing to do, is engage your brain, and stop thinking the same tactics that failed last time will work this time. There is a reason why it is a commonly held view that repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity. > > To be honest you can't deal with him, he is now even more of a political giant on his return, and your needy group of diminishing chatterers are still the political pygmies devoid of creativity or ideas that you were last time. > > You could of course come up with a coherent idea, a coherent group, and a coherent campaign to offer an alternative to the fight for democracy that Farage now leads, or alternatively you could just remain sitting on your arses and be just as totally ineffective as you were the last time he grabbed the political system by the Rocky Mountain Oysters. > > We will be back in your part of the world soon, perhaps we can meet up. > > Cheers > > Democracy
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Gosh you are a fan!
In fact your post illustrates why I am in the camp that takes Nigel very seriously. He is no joke figure. He is formidable. The most influential British politician of recent times. He was the person who forced the offering of an EU referendum and he was then the one what won it. All of that stuff about the 'genius' Dominic Cummings is crap. No Nigel, no Brexit.
And he has now convinced millions of my gullible fellow Britons (including your good self) that he is The One to save the country from a corrupt and failing establishment who care not a jot for democracy or for the values and aspirations of ordinary decent folk. Trump in America has shown how this can take you all the way. I think it unlikely that Nigel can quite pull that off, but it is not out of the question.
As I keep saying, Brexit is not about leaving the European Union, not really, it is about something much much deeper - identity and nationalism.
How best to fight back? Difficult, hellish difficult, because most of the people who are strongly attracted to nationalism have neither the inclination nor the wherewithal to understand and appreciate the arguments against it. This, for obvious reasons, rather hampers me and my chattering classes.
Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot .
> > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
>
> He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
Actually I have seem him down in the pub having a pint with the locals following a walk in the hills. In Cumbria.
He seemed to me to be remarkably unaffected for a politician. Rather more than those politicians constantly being photographed with pints in their hands.
Have you seen him in the fishmonger's yet pointing at the display cabinet?
There are some pretty brutal comments about Rory below but they're probably realistic.
Note, though, that Mike Smithson was relating this not to some general theory about how telegenic he might be in a General Election but specifically to the next Tory leader market.
I'm not sure what the Conservative MPs and membership will do next. Does anyone? They seem to be in a fey mood and on a mission to self-destruct. In which case, Rory probably won't be on the ticket.
Someone mentioned who is likeable to work with. Believe it or not, Michael Gove is loved in the Civil Service. He's very hard working, intelligent and he actually listens. They really like him. To which we can add, that he did this country the most fantastic service of all in the long history of the British Isles ... when he knifed Boris.
> @nico67 said: > Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot . > >
Corbyn wants brexit and knows this is the only way it's now going/likely to happen.
He predicts that all the people angry with it will come back into the fold for a GE.
> @nico67 said: > Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot . > >
As long as the deal doesn't bind anyone in belong the 2022 GE I think all sides should be relaxed about a deal.
Manifesto's can then detail the long term approaches and the election will be a "Peoples Vote" ..
> @Bob__Sykes said: > The more I look at the Tory candidates the more I think there is only one stand out candidate. > > Theresa May. > > Unfortunately....
I was listening to him the other day and he was saying all the right things so I wondered what was wrong with him? I couldn't think of anything in particular although a friend noted his looks which are more Robin Cook than Hugh Grant. But should/could that stop him? No reason why, especially these days.
If there were, as @Dura_Ace notes, dramatic failures of his in the middle east (and his alone, the whole thing is an inglorious period in British military and overseas government history) then that should come out soon enough.
Also, I keep reading about Tory MPs who want to end the talks with Corbyn, go back to Brussels and renegotiate the backstop. So even if Brussels said yes and rewrote the WA, something you'd say is a million to one against, then what? They still haven't got a majority. The hardline pro EU Tories want a referendum and no Brexit. It's not even clear the DUP even wants Brexit any more.
How do they get over the line? Am I missing something?
May's strategy to stitch something up with Labour is the only game in town. That should have been obvious of course on 9th June 2017.... I think I may have suggested that, with many others, at the time.
> @radsatser said: > @The uniondivvie > > "With the sensitivity and concern for others that has become his trademark, Nige has said he's not going to reveal this because the donor would be "hounded" by the media in the lead-up to the European elections." > > Are you divvie by nature as well as name. > > Farage has said the party has 85,000 supporters who have paid £25 each which equates to £2.1 million, he has also indicated that he has one donation of £100,000, details of which he will release in due course in keeping with the regualtions because the donor will be hounded by small minded people like you, who would make no attempt to question the funding of other parties. I wonder why? He has also opened up the parties Paypal account to the media. > > What he is clearly not going to do, is sing to the tune of others.
Will every other party be asked to publish their full list of donors this quarter before the Electoral Commission reporting deadlines? Or does the demand just apply to the Brexit party.
The information will be released to the Electoral Commission and published at the end of the quarter - as will apply to all parties on this website. Why should Farage be expected to release his donors when no one else is?
In the last quarter of 2018 the Tories had 220 'major' donations totalling £7.5 million, Labour had 85 totalling £4 million and the LDs had 151 totalling £1.2 million, the Greens had 20 donations adding up to £100k and the SNP had 7 totalling £213k.
Has the Guardian and Indy done a thorough review of these 500 plus donors so see what they are getting for their money, investigated their twitter feed for any comments over the last 5 years, done a check on any interviews they have made for any juicy statements, done a CRB check and checked their DVLA points and asked their associates for any juicy gossip?
Doubt it - but you can guarantee that this reported 1 major donor to the Brexit party - a contribution which apparently wouldn't be enough to buy 20% of a one bed flat in Bethnal Green - would be subject to all that and more!
> @Stark_Dawning said: > > Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
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Agreed.
And to illustrate the point - whilst not sharing his politics I used to like and respect Farage until he went over the pond and got up close and personal with Trump's nether regions.
Changed my view on him after that. I re-rated him. Down.
> @nico67 said: > Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot . > >
Are there enough Labour and Tory loyalists to get the fudge through ?
Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US?
Honestly, it's just sad.
Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
> @nico67 said: > Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot . > > _______________________________
Spin. Labour cannot do a deal without a referendum (or general election) attached, Corbyn could not deliver his MPs or his party. And if he tried to do so his enemies would instantly brand him Ramsay MacCorbyn and a split as deep as the one brought about by the original Ramsay Mac would probably follow.
Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
> @nico67 said: > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
I see PB has its new Ruth Davidson du jour, with Rory having the practical advantage of being an actual mp & therefore in a position to grasp the poison chalice. He needs to do more reverse ferreting and offer his sponge making skills to the public for the full Ruth.
Far too intelligent and principled to be even remotely like the Mooth
He's too remainy for the tory party members which is not sufficiently counterbalanced by his 18.5 weeks of service in the Black Jocks. He is too weird and geeky looking for the voters so, all in all, no fucking chance.
But on the plus side, he's the first guy I am going to go to if I have an evil magic ring that needs to be destroyed.
> @Sean_F said: > > @nico67 said: > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . > > > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides . > > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
Equally Labour lost control of every council in the Tees Valley that has to be news worthy..
> @nico67 said: > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
This local elections main article on the BBC news website refers to the Tories suffering a drubbing and Labour losing seats when they were expected to gain some? Seems accurate to me?
OT it said on Japanese telly that one of the princes, the one who married the American, had a baby and haven't announced the name yet. I hope and believe they're going to troll everyone by choosing Donald.
> One can see in him how elected dictators arise. A strong sense of the enemy (and it is the enemy, they’re not people any more) being the other and a willingness to deceive, lie, be indifferent to moral turpitude and generally associate with anybody who will push his position forward. > > Never thought I’d see it in Britain.
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Me neither. But we are, no question. Farage is perfect as an English Populist leader. He's golf club AND dog track. That's gold. Just a matter of how far he can go with all this.
His positioning is brilliant. Anything but a No Deal Brexit (which is undeliverable on the grounds of sanity) is a betrayal.
Thus betrayal (which is the fuel for his movement) is guaranteed to be in copious supply for the foreseeable future.
> @Sean_F said: > > @nico67 said: > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . > > > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides . > > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative.
Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US?
Honestly, it's just sad.
Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
Dear Dear , he came across as the spiv he is , only a blind man could have mistaken him for anything other than a snakeoil salesman. He is good at what he does but wholesomeness, how we laughed. You southern boys are easily taken in.
Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
Because you can't equate seat numbers in an asymmetric contest?
This election was mostly in Conservative country with the seats won when Cameron secured a majority on 37% and Labour were on 31%.
Since 2017 both major parties have been polling around the 40% mark. Now according to these elections they're both back to ~30% if not below. Labour is currently going backwards on bloody Ed Milliband, it's not what you'd expect from an opposition 9 years into Tory rule.
Fwiw I still think Labour are in the better position but things are precarious right now.
> @malcolmg said: > Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US? > > Honestly, it's just sad. > > Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange. > > Dear Dear , he came across as the spiv he is , only a blind man could have mistaken him for anything other than a snakeoil salesman. He is good at what he does but wholesomeness, how we laughed. You southern boys are easily taken in.
Yes - we could have been dumb enough to elect a procession of rabble rousers who promised a Sindy ref 2 within "weeks" every month since the humiliating defeat in 2014.
> @edmundintokyo said: > OT it said on Japanese telly that one of the princes, the one who married the America, had a baby and haven't announced the name yet. I hope and believe they're going to troll everyone by choosing Donald.
One of the princes had a baby?
I know they do many things differently in Japan, but.......
There are some pretty brutal comments about Rory below but they're probably realistic.
Note, though, that Mike Smithson was relating this not to some general theory about how telegenic he might be in a General Election but specifically to the next Tory leader market.
I'm not sure what the Conservative MPs and membership will do next. Does anyone? They seem to be in a fey mood and on a mission to self-destruct. In which case, Rory probably won't be on the ticket.
Someone mentioned who is likeable to work with. Believe it or not, Michael Gove is loved in the Civil Service. He's very hard working, intelligent and he actually listens. They really like him. To which we can add, that he did this country the most fantastic service of all in the long history of the British Isles ... when he knifed Boris.
Unfortunately he forgot to knife himself afterwards
> @TudorRose said: > > @Sean_F said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . > > > > > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides . > > > > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting. > > And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative. >
The elections were held in places more favoured for the Tories . So it was very unlikely they wouldn’t end up with more seats . Labour are lucky these weren’t covering places like London . The move to second vote parties would have been impossible to ignore even for the clueless cronies around Corbyn .
> Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US?
>
> Honestly, it's just sad.
>
> Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
>
> Dear Dear , he came across as the spiv he is , only a blind man could have mistaken him for anything other than a snakeoil salesman. He is good at what he does but wholesomeness, how we laughed. You southern boys are easily taken in.
Yes - we could have been dumb enough to elect a procession of rabble rousers who promised a Sindy ref 2 within "weeks" every month since the humiliating defeat in 2014.
They are getting as bad as Westminster nowadays. The tumbrils will be out soon.
> @malcolmg said: > There are some pretty brutal comments about Rory below but they're probably realistic. > > > > Note, though, that Mike Smithson was relating this not to some general theory about how telegenic he might be in a General Election but specifically to the next Tory leader market. > > > > I'm not sure what the Conservative MPs and membership will do next. Does anyone? They seem to be in a fey mood and on a mission to self-destruct. In which case, Rory probably won't be on the ticket. > > > > Someone mentioned who is likeable to work with. Believe it or not, Michael Gove is loved in the Civil Service. He's very hard working, intelligent and he actually listens. They really like him. To which we can add, that he did this country the most fantastic service of all in the long history of the British Isles ... when he knifed Boris. > > Unfortunately he forgot to knife himself afterwards
Gove is liked in DEFRA, he was not like at Justice
I think Corbyns in big trouble if he does a deal with May .
Over 75% of the membership want a second vote , the party has become much more Remain than in 2016. Labour voters now split over 70% saying Leaving was the wrong decision.
Remainers don’t expect a miracle , we expect Labour to do everything possible to secure a second vote on any deal . If that doesn’t work then fine we move on but if Labour is seen as bailing the Tories out then that would cause huge ructions in the party .
> There are some pretty brutal comments about Rory below but they're probably realistic.
>
>
>
> Note, though, that Mike Smithson was relating this not to some general theory about how telegenic he might be in a General Election but specifically to the next Tory leader market.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure what the Conservative MPs and membership will do next. Does anyone? They seem to be in a fey mood and on a mission to self-destruct. In which case, Rory probably won't be on the ticket.
>
>
>
> Someone mentioned who is likeable to work with. Believe it or not, Michael Gove is loved in the Civil Service. He's very hard working, intelligent and he actually listens. They really like him. To which we can add, that he did this country the most fantastic service of all in the long history of the British Isles ... when he knifed Boris.
>
> Unfortunately he forgot to knife himself afterwards
Gove is liked in DEFRA, he was not like at Justice
> > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
> > >
> > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
> >
> > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
>
> And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative.
>
The elections were held in places more favoured for the Tories . So it was very unlikely they wouldn’t end up with more seats . Labour are lucky these weren’t covering places like London . The move to second vote parties would have been impossible to ignore even for the clueless cronies around Corbyn .
That's not actually true though, Labour did relatively well in most areas that look more like London. Trafford, Southern commuter towns etc.
> @SandyRentool said: > The one thing that sticks in my mind about Rory is when he said that some of his constituents "Hold their trousers up with twine". > >
He apparently 'also joked about local people failing to get medical help for a boy who was run over by tractor'.
But to be fair these comments had actually been aimed at challenging the concept that Cumbria was a wealthy area and could cope with public spending cuts.
> @nico67 said: > > @TudorRose said: > > > @Sean_F said: > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . > > > > > > > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides . > > > > > > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting. > > > > And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative. > > > > The elections were held in places more favoured for the Tories . So it was very unlikely they wouldn’t end up with more seats . Labour are lucky these weren’t covering places like London . The move to second vote parties would have been impossible to ignore even for the clueless cronies around Corbyn .
It would be very unusual for Labour to win more seats than the Conservatives in this round of elections, but they ought to be doing a lot better than winning 2,000 of them.
There were lots of councils contested on Thursday which Labour have held in the recent past, but where they failed to make headway.
However they will skoosh all elections in Scotland coming up and for forseeable given they have no opposition.
Have to say the "pieman" of "Dusky Maiden" history is not one to be taken seriously though. The SNP cannot make a worse job of Mcaveety's previous labour administration no matter how bad they are or how hard they try.
> @brokenwheel said: > > @TudorRose said: > > > > @Sean_F said: > > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections . > > > > > > > > > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides . > > > > > > > > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting. > > > > > > And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative. > > > > > > > The elections were held in places more favoured for the Tories . So it was very unlikely they wouldn’t end up with more seats . Labour are lucky these weren’t covering places like London . The move to second vote parties would have been impossible to ignore even for the clueless cronies around Corbyn . > > That's not actually true though, Labour did relatively well in most areas that look more like London. Trafford, Southern commuter towns etc.
The coverage was fair enough. In straight numeric terms Tory losses were much the greater, but the Labour losses were at least as significant.
Comments
Also, my MoD file is as thick as a fucking Harry Potter book and contains enough material to end 10 political careers even by the standards of these feverish times.
> I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
>
>
>
> Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
>
> Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below.
Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored?
This tactic is used on PB daily and it is childish and tiresome.
But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
Honestly, it's just sad.
> > @radsatser said:
> > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
> >
> > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
> *
> "Dear radsatser,
> How should we deal with Nigel Farage then?
> Yours sincerely
> The Chattering Classes"
>
> Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message?
>
> But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
You mean the man who has failed SEVEN times to become an MP and is only in the position he is because the stupid LAB government in 1999 adopted the closed list rather than open list system for the Euro elections.
> > @isam said:
>
> > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
>
> >
>
> > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
>
>
>
> It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below.
>
>
>
> Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored?
>
> Richard criticised what he said, but the article in the Guardian and the criticism from the Jewish Deputies that followed relied on shouting out what the host has said and done then pointing at Farage.
>
> This tactic is used on PB daily and it is childish and tiresome.
A politician has a choice about who he/she associates with. It is perfectly fair to point out the choices a politician makes. Of course the views of an interviewer are not the views of the politician he interviews. But if a politician consistently chooses to associate with people and groups on the extremes then that is a relevant fact about his moral and political choices. And a politician's moral and political choices are a very important guide to that politician and his policies.
> Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
*
I get your general point - about guilt by association - but in this case, with the association being Alex Jones, who is either clinically deranged or pretending to be in order to make a living, the charge is well merited.
And I'm not saying this because I'm anti Farage. For example, if Richard Burgon were to sit down for a cosy one on one about the New World Order with David Icke, I would be calling him out on it. More than that, I would be wanting Jeremy to sack him from the shadow cabinet.
> The InfoWar revelations about Farage could prove deadly. It's one thing being the un-PC funnyman - a sort of political Jim Davidson; it's quite another embracing the creepy world of alt-right conspiracy obsessions and paranoia. Something about Nigel just died.
People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
> Guido has a rumour that Stewart Jackson might run in Peterborough for The Brexit Party. Remains to be seen if he does.
A former regular on PB
> Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
> Guido has a rumour that Stewart Jackson might run in Peterborough for The Brexit Party. Remains to be seen if he does.
That would be a mistake for BP.
For this seat they need someone outside of the political scene who can play the corruption/"plague on all your houses" card for all its worth.
Edited extra bit: I saw that on Twitter, incidentally.
> I > @isam said:
>
> > > @isam said:
>
> >
>
> > > I see the chattering classes have resumed their 'shock, horror....he must explain himself'..... dirt digging on Farage and anybody who gets involved with the Brexit Party.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Predictable, pointless, pathetic and piss poor strategy as well, simply because if you have been awake at all over the last 10 years, every pointless attack on him is just supercharging his message, and the now mainstream view that he is the 'only' one that can address the attack on our democracy.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It's not tenuous associations that Farage is being criticised for but what he himself has said in interview. See @Richard_Nabavi's post below.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Or do you think that what a politician says should somehow be ignored?
>
> >
>
> > Richard criticised what he said, but the article in the Guardian and the criticism from the Jewish Deputies that followed relied on shouting out what the host has said and done then pointing at Farage.
>
> >
>
> > This tactic is used on PB daily and it is childish and tiresome.
>
>
>
> A politician has a choice about who he/she associates with. It is perfectly fair to point out the choices a politician makes. Of course the views of an interviewer are not the views of the politician he interviews. But if a politician consistently chooses to associate with people and groups on the extremes then that is a relevant fact about his moral and political choices. And a politician's moral and political choices are a very important guide to that politician and his policies.
>
> Politicians from outside the big 2 parties need all the publicity they can get, so obviously can’t be as fussy about who they are interviewed by and where. The only time I have seen this Alex Jones was when he was grilled by Andrew Neil on the BBC. There would have been other politicians in the room, “Oh GOD how can they share a platform with him?!?!”
Don't be silly. Farage could get interviewed by any mainstream interviewer if he wanted, particularly in the US given his friendship with Trump. The same here. I rather suspect that the reason he doesn't give such interviews is because they would be tougher on him.
I think bad ideas should be defeated by good ideas. But I don't accept your claim that it is somehow silly to attack a politician for what he says and the choices he makes about who he chooses to associate with.
> > @dr_spyn said:
> > Guido has a rumour that Stewart Jackson might run in Peterborough for The Brexit Party. Remains to be seen if he does.
>
> That would be a mistake for BP.
>
> For this seat they need someone outside of the political scene who can play the corruption/"plague on all your houses" card for all its worth.
New boss, same as the old boss...
> > @dr_spyn said:
> > Guido has a rumour that Stewart Jackson might run in Peterborough for The Brexit Party. Remains to be seen if he does.
>
> That would be a mistake for BP.
>
> For this seat they need someone outside of the political scene who can play the corruption/"plague on all your houses" card for all its worth.
Not anyone that's been slurping from the EU gravy train for the last 20 years then. Well done Nige for avoiding that bear trap.
> > @isam said:
>
> > Infantile guilt by tenuous association tactic that trolls seem to think makes them look clever and delivers a killer point. People with common sense just roll their eyes.
>
> *
>
> I get your general point - about guilt by association - but in this case, with the association being Alex Jones, who is either clinically deranged or pretending to be in order to make a living, the charge is well merited.
>
> And I'm not saying this because I'm anti Farage. For example, if Richard Burgon were to sit down for a cosy one on one about the New World Order with David Icke, I would be calling him out on it. More than that, I would be wanting Jeremy to sack him from the shadow cabinet.
To be honest if we are going to criticise politicians for going on Press TV or Russia Today or Al Jazeera, then we should criticise Farage for going on Infowars. The host is clearly a nut Job who says outrageous stuff to make money. He may believe it who knows. It is poor judgement from any politician to engage.
> Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader.
>
> Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps.
> Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader.
>
> Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
Mrs T did have the strong advantage, though, of being, like Mrs May 'one of us'; one of the 'sort of people' who will vote Conservative through thick and thin.
Although, of course Thatcher's father was a Methodist with liberal tendencies.
>
> Well, they could always play the ball not the man and challenge his message?
>
> But then they know that'd be a losing battle.
*
But the message "the people against the elites" gives you nothing to hit at, other than to find a PC way of saying "this how demagogues and chancers always pitch it, the appeal is to dumbos, please don't be one of them."
Also, the man IS the message in many ways. Brand Farage is powerful. He is a political star.
> > @Cyclefree said:
>
> > Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader.
>
> >
>
> > Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
>
>
>
> I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps.
>
> None of them are challenging though. They’re whining to their friends in the Telegraph and Sunday Times (although there will be less of that now...) while hoping somebody else does the challenging.
I didn't say they weren't pathetic challengers. But it is startling to hear a Cabinet Minister actually backing government policy (where there is any such thing of course) these days.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
>
> He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
Actually I have seem him down in the pub having a pint with the locals following a walk in the hills. In Cumbria.
He seemed to me to be remarkably unaffected for a politician. Rather more than those politicians constantly being photographed with pints in their hands.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
>
> He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
I'd definitely go for a point with Rory Stewart. I'd vote for him as well.
But then I read and hand-sold plenty of copies of 'The Places In Between' and 'Occupational Hazards' whilst running a bookshop, two outstanding non-fiction books he wrote regarding his time in Afghanistan and Iraq. The latter - together with Rajiv Chandrasekaran's 'Imperial Life in the Emerald City' - should be given to any f*ckwit politician who still believes that 'regime change' works.
(And if you really want to go back to first principles, read 'The Collapse: The Accidental Opening of the Berlin Wall' by Mary Elise Sarotte to understand exactly how the seeds of the regime change mentality were sown in the minds of Western policitians)
Never thought I’d see it in Britain.
> > @Nemtynakht said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> > > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
> >
> > He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
>
> Actually I have seem him down in the pub having a pint with the locals following a walk in the hills. In Cumbria.
>
> He seemed to me to be remarkably unaffected for a politician. Rather more than those politicians constantly being photographed with pints in their hands.
Well I’ll happily change my mind but he has the geeky air of Milliband, and I’d be surprised if he turns out to be a man of the people. He is however admirable and not many Tories can point to service for the public good.
> > @Cyclefree said:
>
> > Mind you, the Tory party does have form in the past choosing the unlikely candidate. Mrs T anyone? Wrong sex, horrible voice, not at all "one of us", seen as a no-hoper and not at all with the zeitgeist (all that suburban gentility was snobbishly derided) but did herself good amongst MPs by her attacks on Labour in Parliament on the Finance Bill and by being the only Cabinet Minister willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader.
>
> >
>
> > Still think the odds are against him but it is not inconceivable, depending on what happens in the next few months, that an outsider might sneak through.
>
>
>
> I think the challenge now is to find a Cabinet Minister who is not willing to challenge an unpopular and failing leader. Hammond perhaps.
>
> It is noteworthy that some of the politicians that Theresa May has treated worst have been far more honourable in return. Philip Hammond is one example. Nicky Morgan is another.
Indeed. Her poor treatment of her colleagues is a very bad mark against her, the sign of a poor leader.
https://twitter.com/New_Westphalian/status/1125695837689008128
> People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
> > @GIN1138 said:
> > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
>
> I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
Has Farage told us who is funding his Brexit party? A simple question after all. And simple to answer.
> > @GIN1138 said:
> > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
>
> I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
Farage was mentioned just once in the Mueller report, in passing, in relation to someone suggesting someone else talks to Farage because he knows someone who the Trump campaign might want to speak to.
And that's it.
Civility should be attempted at every turn. It'll stop one alienating one's friends, prevent potential foes from being provoked, and ensure that those you're about to stab in the back don't see it coming.
Whether from a mercenary or polite perspective, it makes sense.
[There are, of course, rare circumstances when other ways are appropriate].
> > @edmundintokyo said:
> > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > People have been trying to get something on Farage for 20 years... Doubt this will stick anymore than "Russian Collusion" has...
> >
> > I don't think there's been any kind of electoral test of Farage since the Russia stuff blew up? It didn't really turn into a story until Trump, and that was after Farage had ducked out of British electoral politics.
>
> Has Farage told us who is funding his Brexit party? A simple question after all. And simple to answer.
With the sensitivity and concern for others that have become his trademarks, Nige has said he's not going to reveal this because the donor would be "hounded" by the media in the lead-up to the European elections.
More generally, it seems to me that the Labour-Conservative talks on a way forward might have a better chance than I'd previously thought. Robert Peston says they have zero chance of success, which is a good sign, but there does seem to be some movement. If we assume that some kind of agreement to disagree is achieved, what happens next?
The consensus is that neither party would be able to get its MPs to vote for any fudge, and that probably Theresa May would get chucked out pronto. However, there's a snag to chucking her out: any replacement leader could only get the necessary support in the party by promising a 'harder' or even no-deal Brexit. How would that work? If he or she promised that, they'd be immediately stuffed by not being able to get support for it in parliament; the numbers don't change just because the leader changes. In fact, it would be harder for any new leader, selected on a platform of a harder Brexit than TM's, to get support from centrist and opposition MPs. The candidates must know that - are they going to lame-duck themselves from day one? Although the mechanism is opaque, the political logic for the Conservatives, including the wannabee leaders, points to doing a deal.
Labour's position is equally difficult,of course, so I'm not holding my breath. By maybe, just maybe, some kind of muddled fudge can be reached?
> > @Cyclefree said:
> > > @Nemtynakht said:
> > > > @kinabalu said:
> > > > Hate to be shallow but Rory Stewart really does not have the look. Narrow shoulders, short and slight of frame, a face that is distinctly interesting. His voice is rather unusual too. Good guy, though, I like him a lot. On TV, that is, since that is all the direct evidence I have. Wonder what he's like to work for? I would like to know because this, for me, is an acid test of someone's character. Does he get results by inspiring people or by bullying them? Is he a prince among men or is he a little shit?
> > >
> > > He doesn’t have the ‘I’d go for a pint down the pub factor’. Current Tory leader on that front is Penny Morduant.
> >
> > Actually I have seem him down in the pub having a pint with the locals following a walk in the hills. In Cumbria.
> >
> > He seemed to me to be remarkably unaffected for a politician. Rather more than those politicians constantly being photographed with pints in their hands.
>
> Well I’ll happily change my mind but he has the geeky air of Milliband, and I’d be surprised if he turns out to be a man of the people. He is however admirable and not many Tories can point to service for the public good.
He'd look less geeky if he removed the wig.
> Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US?
>
> Honestly, it's just sad.
>
> Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
Del Boy surely?
> However, there's a snag to chucking her out: any replacement leader could only get the necessary support in the party by promising a 'harder' or even no-deal Brexit. How would that work? If he or she promised that, they'd be immediately stuffed by not being able to get support for it in parliament; the numbers don't change just because the leader changes.
1) Win a leadership election promising renegotiation, say the EU would buckle because of your strength of purpose or something. I think this is what Boris is saying now.
2) Call a GE on the same platform and win
3) Go to Brussels to "renegotiate", get some nice chocolates
4) Pass TMay's deal
> On topic: I can't see the party going for Rory Stewart in its current state. He's been quite impressive as one of the few ministers to come out batting for a sensible solution to the Brexit nightmare, but that alas counts against him. I hope his career progresses, though. (BTW: Has his courageous pledge to resign if prisons didn't improve now been conveniently palped?)
>
> More generally, it seems to me that the Labour-Conservative talks on a way forward might have a better chance than I'd previously thought. Robert Peston says they have zero chance of success, which is a good sign, but there does seem to be some movement. If we assume that some kind of agreement to disagree is achieved, what happens next?
>
> The consensus is that neither party would be able to get its MPs to vote for any fudge, and that probably Theresa May would get chucked out pronto. However, there's a snag to chucking her out: any replacement leader could only get the necessary support in the party by promising a 'harder' or even no-deal Brexit. How would that work? If he or she promised that, they'd be immediately stuffed by not being able to get support for it in parliament; the numbers don't change just because the leader changes. In fact, it would be harder for any new leader, selected on a platform of a harder Brexit than TM's, to get support from centrist and opposition MPs. The candidates must know that - are they going to lame-duck themselves from day one? Although the mechanism is opaque, the political logic for the Conservatives, including the wannabee leaders, points to doing a deal.
>
> Labour's position is equally difficult,of course, so I'm not holding my breath. By maybe, just maybe, some kind of muddled fudge can be reached?
A chance of some kind of muddled fudge, it fair gets the pulse racing,
>
> 1) Win a leadership election promising renegotiation, say the EU would buckle because of your strength of purpose or something. I think this is what Boris is saying now.
> 2) Call a GE on the same platform and win
> 3) Go to Brussels to "renegotiate", get some nice chocolates
> 4) Pass TMay's deal
Step 2 is the tricky one.
> @The uniondivvie
>
> "With the sensitivity and concern for others that has become his trademark, Nige has said he's not going to reveal this because the donor would be "hounded" by the media in the lead-up to the European elections."
>
> Are you divvie by nature as well as name.
>
> Farage has said the party has 85,000 supporters who have paid £25 each which equates to £2.1 million, he has also indicated that he has one donation of £100,000, details of which he will release in due course in keeping with the regualtions because the donor will be hounded by small minded people like you, who would make no attempt to question the funding of other parties. I wonder why? He has also opened up the parties Paypal account to the media.
>
> What he is clearly not going to do, is sing to the tune of others.
So we're not even allowed to quote what the great man says now?
Away and practice your sockpuppetry on someone who cares.
> @ kinabalu
>
> I would have thought the first thing to do, is engage your brain, and stop thinking the same tactics that failed last time will work this time. There is a reason why it is a commonly held view that repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.
>
> To be honest you can't deal with him, he is now even more of a political giant on his return, and your needy group of diminishing chatterers are still the political pygmies devoid of creativity or ideas that you were last time.
>
> You could of course come up with a coherent idea, a coherent group, and a coherent campaign to offer an alternative to the fight for democracy that Farage now leads, or alternatively you could just remain sitting on your arses and be just as totally ineffective as you were the last time he grabbed the political system by the Rocky Mountain Oysters.
>
> We will be back in your part of the world soon, perhaps we can meet up.
>
> Cheers
>
> Democracy
*
Gosh you are a fan!
In fact your post illustrates why I am in the camp that takes Nigel very seriously. He is no joke figure. He is formidable. The most influential British politician of recent times. He was the person who forced the offering of an EU referendum and he was then the one what won it. All of that stuff about the 'genius' Dominic Cummings is crap. No Nigel, no Brexit.
And he has now convinced millions of my gullible fellow Britons (including your good self) that he is The One to save the country from a corrupt and failing establishment who care not a jot for democracy or for the values and aspirations of ordinary decent folk. Trump in America has shown how this can take you all the way. I think it unlikely that Nigel can quite pull that off, but it is not out of the question.
As I keep saying, Brexit is not about leaving the European Union, not really, it is about something much much deeper - identity and nationalism.
How best to fight back? Difficult, hellish difficult, because most of the people who are strongly attracted to nationalism have neither the inclination nor the wherewithal to understand and appreciate the arguments against it. This, for obvious reasons, rather hampers me and my chattering classes.
But we do our best. We have to.
> > 2) Call a GE on the same platform and win
> Step 2 is the tricky one.
Obviously it's a risk. OTOH, Jeremy Corbyn.
Note, though, that Mike Smithson was relating this not to some general theory about how telegenic he might be in a General Election but specifically to the next Tory leader market.
I'm not sure what the Conservative MPs and membership will do next. Does anyone? They seem to be in a fey mood and on a mission to self-destruct. In which case, Rory probably won't be on the ticket.
Someone mentioned who is likeable to work with. Believe it or not, Michael Gove is loved in the Civil Service. He's very hard working, intelligent and he actually listens. They really like him. To which we can add, that he did this country the most fantastic service of all in the long history of the British Isles ... when he knifed Boris.
> Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot .
>
>
Corbyn wants brexit and knows this is the only way it's now going/likely to happen.
He predicts that all the people angry with it will come back into the fold for a GE.
It's as simple as that.
> Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot .
>
>
As long as the deal doesn't bind anyone in belong the 2022 GE I think all sides should be relaxed about a deal.
Manifesto's can then detail the long term approaches and the election will be a "Peoples Vote" ..
Theresa May.
Unfortunately....
> The more I look at the Tory candidates the more I think there is only one stand out candidate.
>
> Theresa May.
>
> Unfortunately....
LMAO - they should just wind up now then.
If there were, as @Dura_Ace notes, dramatic failures of his in the middle east (and his alone, the whole thing is an inglorious period in British military and overseas government history) then that should come out soon enough.
And reader, I backed him.
How do they get over the line? Am I missing something?
May's strategy to stitch something up with Labour is the only game in town. That should have been obvious of course on 9th June 2017.... I think I may have suggested that, with many others, at the time.
> @The uniondivvie
>
> "With the sensitivity and concern for others that has become his trademark, Nige has said he's not going to reveal this because the donor would be "hounded" by the media in the lead-up to the European elections."
>
> Are you divvie by nature as well as name.
>
> Farage has said the party has 85,000 supporters who have paid £25 each which equates to £2.1 million, he has also indicated that he has one donation of £100,000, details of which he will release in due course in keeping with the regualtions because the donor will be hounded by small minded people like you, who would make no attempt to question the funding of other parties. I wonder why? He has also opened up the parties Paypal account to the media.
>
> What he is clearly not going to do, is sing to the tune of others.
Will every other party be asked to publish their full list of donors this quarter before the Electoral Commission reporting deadlines? Or does the demand just apply to the Brexit party.
The information will be released to the Electoral Commission and published at the end of the quarter - as will apply to all parties on this website. Why should Farage be expected to release his donors when no one else is?
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties/quarterly-donations-and-loans
In the last quarter of 2018 the Tories had 220 'major' donations totalling £7.5 million, Labour had 85 totalling £4 million and the LDs had 151 totalling £1.2 million, the Greens had 20 donations adding up to £100k and the SNP had 7 totalling £213k.
Has the Guardian and Indy done a thorough review of these 500 plus donors so see what they are getting for their money, investigated their twitter feed for any comments over the last 5 years, done a check on any interviews they have made for any juicy statements, done a CRB check and checked their DVLA points and asked their associates for any juicy gossip?
Doubt it - but you can guarantee that this reported 1 major donor to the Brexit party - a contribution which apparently wouldn't be enough to buy 20% of a one bed flat in Bethnal Green - would be subject to all that and more!
Sorry - people know the routine by now!
>
> Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
*
Agreed.
And to illustrate the point - whilst not sharing his politics I used to like and respect Farage until he went over the pond and got up close and personal with Trump's nether regions.
Changed my view on him after that. I re-rated him. Down.
> Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot .
>
>
Are there enough Labour and Tory loyalists to get the fudge through ?
> Cabinet source . Allegedly Labour is moving to the dealers ! Heard it all before . If Labour are stupid enough to bail out the Tories then they really have lost the plot .
>
>
_______________________________
Spin. Labour cannot do a deal without a referendum (or general election) attached, Corbyn could not deliver his MPs or his party. And if he tried to do so his enemies would instantly brand him Ramsay MacCorbyn and a split as deep as the one brought about by the original Ramsay Mac would probably follow.
The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
> Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
>
> The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
That is significant.
> > @nico67 said:
> > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
> >
> > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
>
> If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
Equally Labour lost control of every council in the Tees Valley that has to be news worthy..
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1125705747621236736
Perhaps Mr Jackson might stand if thousands of his ex constituents plead for him to run, but it looks as if he might not.
> Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
>
> The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
This local elections main article on the BBC news website refers to the Tories suffering a drubbing and Labour losing seats when they were expected to gain some? Seems accurate to me?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48157991
> One can see in him how elected dictators arise. A strong sense of the enemy (and it is the enemy, they’re not people any more) being the other and a willingness to deceive, lie, be indifferent to moral turpitude and generally associate with anybody who will push his position forward.
>
> Never thought I’d see it in Britain.
*
Me neither. But we are, no question. Farage is perfect as an English Populist leader. He's golf club AND dog track. That's gold. Just a matter of how far he can go with all this.
His positioning is brilliant. Anything but a No Deal Brexit (which is undeliverable on the grounds of sanity) is a betrayal.
Thus betrayal (which is the fuel for his movement) is guaranteed to be in copious supply for the foreseeable future.
> > @nico67 said:
> > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
> >
> > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
>
> If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative.
This election was mostly in Conservative country with the seats won when Cameron secured a majority on 37% and Labour were on 31%.
Since 2017 both major parties have been polling around the 40% mark. Now according to these elections they're both back to ~30% if not below. Labour is currently going backwards on bloody Ed Milliband, it's not what you'd expect from an opposition 9 years into Tory rule.
Fwiw I still think Labour are in the better position but things are precarious right now.
> Does anyone really think that Brexit party voters give any fucks about some radio show that Nige was on in the US?
>
> Honestly, it's just sad.
>
> Yes, this could resonate. Hitherto there was a kind of earthy English wholesomeness about Farage. One could imagine him as a pub landlord, say, or a bookmaker. Now he's got himself involved with the whole American-gun-owners-under-siege conspiracy movement. Suddenly our Nigel looks a little strange.
>
> Dear Dear , he came across as the spiv he is , only a blind man could have mistaken him for anything other than a snakeoil salesman. He is good at what he does but wholesomeness, how we laughed. You southern boys are easily taken in.
Yes - we could have been dumb enough to elect a procession of rabble rousers who promised a Sindy ref 2 within "weeks" every month since the humiliating defeat in 2014.
> OT it said on Japanese telly that one of the princes, the one who married the America, had a baby and haven't announced the name yet. I hope and believe they're going to troll everyone by choosing Donald.
One of the princes had a baby?
I know they do many things differently in Japan, but.......
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
> > >
> > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
> >
> > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
>
> And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative.
>
The elections were held in places more favoured for the Tories . So it was very unlikely they wouldn’t end up with more seats . Labour are lucky these weren’t covering places like London . The move to second vote parties would have been impossible to ignore even for the clueless cronies around Corbyn .
>
> They are getting as bad as Westminster nowadays. The tumbrils will be out soon.
I did read that was the case malc
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17622360.frank-mcaveety-glasgows-snp-administration-is-in-chaos-and-must-get-on-with-the-day-job/
> There are some pretty brutal comments about Rory below but they're probably realistic.
>
>
>
> Note, though, that Mike Smithson was relating this not to some general theory about how telegenic he might be in a General Election but specifically to the next Tory leader market.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure what the Conservative MPs and membership will do next. Does anyone? They seem to be in a fey mood and on a mission to self-destruct. In which case, Rory probably won't be on the ticket.
>
>
>
> Someone mentioned who is likeable to work with. Believe it or not, Michael Gove is loved in the Civil Service. He's very hard working, intelligent and he actually listens. They really like him. To which we can add, that he did this country the most fantastic service of all in the long history of the British Isles ... when he knifed Boris.
>
> Unfortunately he forgot to knife himself afterwards
Gove is liked in DEFRA, he was not like at Justice
Over 75% of the membership want a second vote , the party has become much more Remain than in 2016. Labour voters now split over 70% saying Leaving was the wrong decision.
Remainers don’t expect a miracle , we expect Labour to do everything possible to secure a second vote on any deal . If that doesn’t work then fine we move on but if Labour is seen as bailing the Tories out then that would cause huge ructions in the party .
> The one thing that sticks in my mind about Rory is when he said that some of his constituents "Hold their trousers up with twine".
>
>
He apparently 'also joked about local people failing to get medical help for a boy who was run over by tractor'.
But to be fair these comments had actually been aimed at challenging the concept that Cumbria was a wealthy area and could cope with public spending cuts.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/7909371/Rory-Stewart-sorry-for-saying-primitive-constituents-tied-trousers-with-string.html
> > @TudorRose said:
> > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > @nico67 said:
> > > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
> > > >
> > > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
> > >
> > > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
> >
> > And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative.
> >
>
> The elections were held in places more favoured for the Tories . So it was very unlikely they wouldn’t end up with more seats . Labour are lucky these weren’t covering places like London . The move to second vote parties would have been impossible to ignore even for the clueless cronies around Corbyn .
It would be very unusual for Labour to win more seats than the Conservatives in this round of elections, but they ought to be doing a lot better than winning 2,000 of them.
There were lots of councils contested on Thursday which Labour have held in the recent past, but where they failed to make headway.
> > @TudorRose said:
>
> > > @Sean_F said:
>
> > > > @nico67 said:
>
> > > > Quite amazing reporting by the BBC. Both Tories and Labour took a drubbing at the local elections .
>
> > > >
>
> > > > The BBC is now a mouthpiece for the government. How does 1300 versus 80 odd seat losses equate to a drubbing for both sides .
>
> > >
>
> > > If one side is starting with 4,900 seats and the other is starting with 2,100 seats, then that's fair reporting.
>
> >
>
> > And the fact that the Tories still ended up with more councillors than Labour + LibDems, a fact that should be considered when people talk about 'meltdown'; it's all relative.
>
> >
>
>
>
> The elections were held in places more favoured for the Tories . So it was very unlikely they wouldn’t end up with more seats . Labour are lucky these weren’t covering places like London . The move to second vote parties would have been impossible to ignore even for the clueless cronies around Corbyn .
>
> That's not actually true though, Labour did relatively well in most areas that look more like London. Trafford, Southern commuter towns etc.
The coverage was fair enough. In straight numeric terms Tory losses were much the greater, but the Labour losses were at least as significant.