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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » EdM continues to progress with LAB voters in YouGov’s “Well

SystemSystem Posts: 11,019
edited November 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » EdM continues to progress with LAB voters in YouGov’s “Well/badly” ratings. But his net 44 way behind Dave’s net 84 with CON voters

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    First!
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    Leader net well/badly ratings among VI (2013 vs Nov 2 2012)

    Cameron: +84 (+15)
    Miliband: +44 (-1)

    Progress, huh?
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    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Might watch the highlights before writing the post-race piece.

    FPT: Mr. G, thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it. What did you make of the Goat?
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Yes indeed - hard for Dave's to increase any more among the diehards. Which highlights why +44 is still poor!

    Maybe it's related to the guff-like announcements such as today's on the living wage we get so often from all politicians (not just Miliband). It's an odd one. If the living wage is such a good thing why not just increase the minimum wage to the right level?

    Instead we get this one-year-only post-election bribe - after which benefits will catch up with incomes and the worker will be only marginally better off (if at all), and the employer will be saddled with the full cost of the increased salary and tax/NI.

    It just seems like another compromised muddle. Contrast with the energy price freeze, which is no nonsense and had the desired effect on party supporters!
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    tim said:

    More importantly Ed now has a lead among 2010 Lib Dems on this YouGov question

    He led last year too - and his lead has narrowed by 8 points....

    Among Lib Dem 2010 Net well (vs 2012)
    Cameron: -31 (+2)
    Miliband: -22 (-6)

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    edited November 2013
    tim said:

    Leader net well/badly ratings among VI (2013 vs Nov 2 2012)

    Cameron: +84 (+15)
    Miliband: +44 (-1)

    Progress, huh?

    The Tories were on 35% in that poll
    All within MOE of the current poll.

    The facts are Cameron has progressed among his supporters, Miliband is nearly back to where he was - and he's gone backwards among 2010 Lib Dems....
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This is brilliant Self v Littlejohn

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1390395.stm
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,923

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Might watch the highlights before writing the post-race piece.

    FPT: Mr. G, thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it. What did you make of the Goat?

    He was a real bad one , surprised he lasted
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited November 2013
    Ot and sorry if it's been posted already but i just saw David Milliband on News 24. tell Marr about his reaction to the Mail's attack on his father. In a way it showed what Labour missed out on. It was sincere without being sentimental or mawkish yet it was surprisingly moving. Without being cynical my friend Bruno would have given it an 8
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    Did anyone watch Marr interviewing Maria Miller this morning?

    I do get the feeling with Marr that he doesn't understand pretty basic stuff. Surely the point is that Ipso could request recognition from the Recognition body under the Royal Charter if it wanted to.

    Marr didn't seem to get that. He didn't understand that even under the Royal Charter that it is for the press to set up their OWN body that then applies for recognition. So Ipso can be the press body just as equally as any other body.

    All that isn't happening is that Ipso isn't applying for recognition (yet).
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    Plato said:

    This is brilliant Self v Littlejohn

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1390395.stm

    I wonder who he could have meant:

    ".....the man who called Two Jags, that's a name you coined: "He's a chimp, a pustulating boil of resentment and class hatred, a chippy, thin-skinned puffed up laughing stock, an ocean-going tub of lard, groaning with arrogance, ego, hypocrisy, and inferiority, he's an inadequate, inarticulate embarrassment, a disgrace to Britain at home and abroad."
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    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,923

    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi

    One of the few things that get cross party support , supping at the trough. These clowns should be tarred and feathered and run out of town
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Plato

    "This is brilliant Self v Littlejohn"

    It's 12 years old.
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    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi



    Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, founder of market research firm YouGov, claimed the most with a bill of £5,822.27 covering electricity and heating oil for his Warwickshire estate.

    That's just plain nuts. Why the feck do we have to pay for him to live on an estate anyway? That's his choice, he should pay for his own energy use, over and above the national average.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    This is brilliant Self v Littlejohn

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1390395.stm

    I wonder who he could have meant:

    ".....the man who called Two Jags, that's a name you coined: "He's a chimp, a pustulating boil of resentment and class hatred, a chippy, thin-skinned puffed up laughing stock, an ocean-going tub of lard, groaning with arrogance, ego, hypocrisy, and inferiority, he's an inadequate, inarticulate embarrassment, a disgrace to Britain at home and abroad."
    I loved the last couple of paras - I was LOL throughout.

    " SELF: Well he doesn't say he's a human being, does he? He uses the classic form of demonisation which is to say he's a chimp, in other words he's bestial. So he's actually dehumanised the subject of his abuse before he even moves on to piling on the pejoratives, and I think that's very psychologically interesting, of course we're all familiar with the kind of people who demonise other human beings by turning them into bestiary...we all know who does that.

    [long pause]

    LITTLEJOHN: In the Psychiatrist's Chair with Nicky Campbell

    CAMPBELL: Caroline Feraday has the travel.
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    Mr. G, and great fun to write, he was.

    Incidentally, I've just got a new one out, a shorti(ish) comedy called Sir Edric's Temple. It's up on Amazon, or you can get it for 2/3 off with code KF49K here: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/373077
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    I'll put up the post-race piece shortly after the highlights. Another race where the sharp end was relatively dull, but there was quite a bit of entertainment in the midfield.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334

    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi



    Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, founder of market research firm YouGov, claimed the most with a bill of £5,822.27 covering electricity and heating oil for his Warwickshire estate.

    That's just plain nuts. Why the feck do we have to pay for him to live on an estate anyway? That's his choice, he should pay for his own energy use, over and above the national average.
    This came up annoyingly on the doorstep today:
    "I'm not voting for any of you! The Mail says you're all living on estates and claiming thousands in fuel bills?"
    "I'm not an MP. When I was my fuel bill wasn't anything like that."
    "Huh! I'm not voting for any of you!"
    "But..."
    (door slams)
    (sigh)

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    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi



    Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, founder of market research firm YouGov, claimed the most with a bill of £5,822.27 covering electricity and heating oil for his Warwickshire estate.

    That's just plain nuts. Why the feck do we have to pay for him to live on an estate anyway? That's his choice, he should pay for his own energy use, over and above the national average.
    There is a case that could be made for paying energy cost for required second homes despite their (by most people's standards) very generous salaries.

    But claiming three or four times what the average household uses seems excessive - and, with a bit of luck - politically damaging....
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334
    On topic, I think that Labour supporters overwhelmingly mean by "doing well" "beating the Tories by a large margin". It's a trailing indicator of Labour success rather than a leading one.
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    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi



    Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, founder of market research firm YouGov, claimed the most with a bill of £5,822.27 covering electricity and heating oil for his Warwickshire estate.

    That's just plain nuts. Why the feck do we have to pay for him to live on an estate anyway? That's his choice, he should pay for his own energy use, over and above the national average.
    This came up annoyingly on the doorstep today:
    "I'm not voting for any of you! The Mail says you're all living on estates and claiming thousands in fuel bills?"
    "I'm not an MP. When I was my fuel bill wasn't anything like that."
    "Huh! I'm not voting for any of you!"
    "But..."
    (door slams)
    (sigh)

    He does have a point though - did you not claim £1 million in expenses during your 8 years as an MP?

    What exactly did you ever pay for out of your own pocket?
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    F1: the Lotus/Quantum deal is finally done:
    http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/quantum-deal-is-completed/

    This may mean that Hulkenberg will go there after all. Let's hope so.

    I'll get cracking with the post-race piece and get it up shortly.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Has that bloke got a heated moat?
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    F1: post-race analysis is up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/abu-dhabi-post-race-analysis.html

    Weird fact: this is the first race this season where my profit has been between £1 and £40.
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    Miss Carola, of course. You don't want the salmon to get chilly, do you?
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    The renewed expenses scandal shows again why we need OFPOL. We need regulatory oversight of politicians' honesty and competence, with sweeping powers to intervene.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,404
    edited November 2013
    I've read Guido piece in today's Sun.

    Might be worth putting some money on Ed Davey as next out of the cabinet at 33/1 with Ladbrokes.

    I get the feeling that's one that's going to get very very messy.

    It is expenses and he's renting from the local Lib Dem party (and his wife is a director of the company that owns the property) at what appears to be twice the local going rate.

    This one of those where the perceptions matter more than the facts.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL

    RT @Millie_77: Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi claimed nearly £6k on expenses for his energy bill. £6K!! Is he running a cannabis farm?
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    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi



    Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, founder of market research firm YouGov, claimed the most with a bill of £5,822.27 covering electricity and heating oil for his Warwickshire estate.

    That's just plain nuts. Why the feck do we have to pay for him to live on an estate anyway? That's his choice, he should pay for his own energy use, over and above the national average.
    This came up annoyingly on the doorstep today:
    "I'm not voting for any of you! The Mail says you're all living on estates and claiming thousands in fuel bills?"
    "I'm not an MP. When I was my fuel bill wasn't anything like that."
    "Huh! I'm not voting for any of you!"
    "But..."
    (door slams)
    (sigh)

    He does have a point though - did you not claim £1 million in expenses during your 8 years as an MP?

    What exactly did you ever pay for out of your own pocket?
    That's ten grand each and every month, pray do tell us what you spent it on
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    edited November 2013
    Move along, nothing to see, nothing for you here.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24794093

    Odd non story in Falkirk for SLab. Deans steps down as chairman.
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    I've read Guido piece in today's Sun.

    Might be worth putting some money on Ed Davey as next out of the cabinet at 33/1 with Ladbrokes.

    I get the feeling that's one that's going to get very very messy.

    It is expenses and he's renting from the local Lib Dem party (and his wife is a director of the company that owns the property) at what appears to be twice the local going rate.

    This one of those where the perceptions matter more than the facts.

    Thanks. I've put him in a double with Defy Logic for the Arkle.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,404
    edited November 2013

    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi



    Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, founder of market research firm YouGov, claimed the most with a bill of £5,822.27 covering electricity and heating oil for his Warwickshire estate.

    That's just plain nuts. Why the feck do we have to pay for him to live on an estate anyway? That's his choice, he should pay for his own energy use, over and above the national average.
    This came up annoyingly on the doorstep today:
    "I'm not voting for any of you! The Mail says you're all living on estates and claiming thousands in fuel bills?"
    "I'm not an MP. When I was my fuel bill wasn't anything like that."
    "Huh! I'm not voting for any of you!"
    "But..."
    (door slams)
    (sigh)

    He does have a point though - did you not claim £1 million in expenses during your 8 years as an MP?

    What exactly did you ever pay for out of your own pocket?
    That's ten grand each and every month, pray do tell us what you spent it on
    Judging by here most of it staffing costs and office rent, which appears to be the norm

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10472/nick_palmer/broxtowe#expenses

    IIRC Nick Palmer wasn't asked to repay anything back/had no issues when Sir Thomas Legg investigated his expenses in 2009.

    Edit: Just wanted to clarify, Sir Thomas Legg didn't solely investigate Nick Palmer, he investigated every MPs expenses when the expenses scandal broke.

    Which puts him in a good light when it comes to expenses
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071


    Which puts him in a good light when it comes to expenses

    No, it puts him in a very bad light, along with many others, for taking the piss out of the system.
    Legg merely found no reason to add Palmer and others to the list of Labour MPs who ended up in court.

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    GeoffM said:


    Which puts him in a good light when it comes to expenses

    No, it puts him in a very bad light, along with many others, for taking the piss out of the system.
    Legg merely found no reason to add Palmer and others to the list of Labour MPs who ended up in court.

    Errr, lots of MPs were forced to repay money back

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmmemest/348/348.pdf
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    SeanT said:

    I can see a zebra next to the fat American tourist, both apparently drunk.

    Did you buy drinks for both of them?
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I don't see why MP's should claim for any of their staff. As they can only claim for employees doing constituency business i.e. non party work, then staff could be provided by the civil service and paid centrally. This would also stop the dubious practice of employing family members!
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited November 2013

    GeoffM said:


    Which puts him in a good light when it comes to expenses

    No, it puts him in a very bad light, along with many others, for taking the piss out of the system.
    Legg merely found no reason to add Palmer and others to the list of Labour MPs who ended up in court.

    Errr, lots of MPs were forced to repay money back

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmmemest/348/348.pdf
    Yes, indeed. Some were told to paid back money, some were not, some (not enough) went to jail. Many of those who paid back no money were still taking the piss.

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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    SeanT said:

    Mark Senior, -

    Surely calling a Lib Dem MP "dishonest" is not libellous - it is tautologous.

    I suspect there may be some honest LibDem MPs. Well concealed, though.

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    SeanT said:

    Bwanji.

    I am writing this from the Royal Livingstone Hotel, on the very riverbanks of the Zambesi. With a massive gin and tonic to hand.

    Zambia!!

    A friend of mine was due to go there for Xmas with his family, but BA have just shut the route down and have cancelled his flights. Apoplectic is the word, I think.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Good to see OGH picked up on D'Ancona's article on Umunna and Hunt, as shown above Miliband's ratings still lag Cameron's despite improvement and both these two figures, particularly Umunna, are potential successors
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    Blue_rog said:

    I don't see why MP's should claim for any of their staff. As they can only claim for employees doing constituency business i.e. non party work, then staff could be provided by the civil service and paid centrally. This would also stop the dubious practice of employing family members!

    I was just thinking exactly the same thing. This should be tied with set expenses for travel and a government provided flat in London in which they can live when on Parliamentary business, with all bills paid for centrally. A set per diem for sustenance and that is about it.

    With very few exceptions (and there were some honourable exceptions who were claiming almost nothing) even those MPs who were claiming what they were legally entitled to were helping to propagate a dishonest system.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    SeanT said:

    Plato said:

    LOL

    RT @Millie_77: Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi claimed nearly £6k on expenses for his energy bill. £6K!! Is he running a cannabis farm?

    I'd be interested to know the proportion of Asian MPs/Peers who have been caught fiddling, in relation to the total number of Asian MPs/Peers.

    I suspect it is higher than for whites. However this might reflect the fact that it is harder for Asians to reach the Lords and Commons, in a largely white country, so only the very ambitious, egotistic and amorally self-serving Asians are likely to progress to the stage where they CAN rip us off.

    Such are the glories of democracy.



    That's a bit OTT even for you Sean. I don't think ethnicity has any bearing on the propensity for an MP to 'fiddle' the system.
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    SeanT said:

    Plato said:

    LOL

    RT @Millie_77: Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi claimed nearly £6k on expenses for his energy bill. £6K!! Is he running a cannabis farm?

    I'd be interested to know the proportion of Asian MPs/Peers who have been caught fiddling, in relation to the total number of Asian MPs/Peers.

    I suspect it is higher than for whites. However this might reflect the fact that it is harder for Asians to reach the Lords and Commons, in a largely white country, so only the very ambitious, egotistic and amorally self-serving Asians are likely to progress to the stage where they CAN rip us off.

    Such are the glories of democracy.



    Sounds like a very big G&T.

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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    GeoffM said:


    Which puts him in a good light when it comes to expenses


    Legg merely found no reason to add Palmer and others to the list of Labour MPs who ended up in court.

    A slur of which the Met would be proud, and no one else should be.

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    SeanT said:

    Plato said:

    LOL

    RT @Millie_77: Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi claimed nearly £6k on expenses for his energy bill. £6K!! Is he running a cannabis farm?

    I'd be interested to know the proportion of Asian MPs/Peers who have been caught fiddling, in relation to the total number of Asian MPs/Peers.

    I suspect it is higher than for whites. However this might reflect the fact that it is harder for Asians to reach the Lords and Commons, in a largely white country, so only the very ambitious, egotistic and amorally self-serving Asians are likely to progress to the stage where they CAN rip us off.

    Such are the glories of democracy.



    IIRC no Asian MP or peer has been imprisoned for dodgy expenses.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited November 2013
    Tim 'Dave Appeals to the core' That is precisely the point, Dave does not appeal to the core, right-wing Tories hate him as much as leftwingers do, which is why UKIP are rising so high in the polls and why he has had to bring Crosby back to shore up his base (many Tories who voted for Hague and IDS are now voting UKIP). Cameron appeals to centre-right liberals and the upper middle class privately educated posh, he does not appeal to anyone else, certainly not skilled blue collar workers and the lower middle class, whereas Boris does appeal to that group. The average Briton may think he looks more like a PM than Ed Miliband but that does not mean he appeals to them!
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    SeanT said:

    Mark Senior, -

    Surely calling a Lib Dem MP "dishonest" is not libellous - it is tautologous.

    Seems like my post was deleted, I'm quite happy to be sued if the post is considered libellous
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    This is brilliant Self v Littlejohn

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1390395.stm

    I wonder who he could have meant:

    ".....the man who called Two Jags, that's a name you coined: "He's a chimp, a pustulating boil of resentment and class hatred, a chippy, thin-skinned puffed up laughing stock, an ocean-going tub of lard, groaning with arrogance, ego, hypocrisy, and inferiority, he's an inadequate, inarticulate embarrassment, a disgrace to Britain at home and abroad."
    I loved the last couple of paras - I was LOL throughout.

    " SELF: Well he doesn't say he's a human being, does he? He uses the classic form of demonisation which is to say he's a chimp, in other words he's bestial. So he's actually dehumanised the subject of his abuse before he even moves on to piling on the pejoratives, and I think that's very psychologically interesting, of course we're all familiar with the kind of people who demonise other human beings by turning them into bestiary...we all know who does that.

    [long pause]

    LITTLEJOHN: In the Psychiatrist's Chair with Nicky Campbell

    CAMPBELL: Caroline Feraday has the travel.
    Extremely funny. My daughter introduced me to this tonight. http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/tim_minchin_s_storm_critique_of_alternative_medicine_and_defense_of_reason.html

    Definitely one for Tim to enjoy re alternative medicine.

    "Do you know what you call alternative medicine that works? it's called medicine."

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    SeanT said:



    Yup. You now have to go via Nairobi, Schiphol, Joburg, etc - with KLM, Air France, SAA &c - and I can't help thinking this is perhaps a sign of our Total F*ck Up in regard to London airports. Is it really not profitable for BA to fly to Lusaka direct 3 times a week (Lusaka being the capital of an ex British colony) but it IS profitable for KLM?

    Or is this just because there are so few free slots at Heathrow BA will sacrifice feebler African links in favour of Chinese links, thus detaching London from important parts of the world economy?

    BUILD THE THIRD RUNWAY, OR BUILD BORIS AIRPORT. Just Get On With It.

    More likely they're flying via Dubai. I work in Africa, and do that. Don't go via London unless someone else is paying for it, and insisting I go that way.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Has he switched suppliers?

    Name: Doncaster North MP: Ed Miliband Party: Labour Claim (£): 403.59 Fuel type: Electricity.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/your-mp-claim-energy-bills-2671685
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    dr_spyn said:

    Has he switched suppliers?

    Name: Doncaster North MP: Ed Miliband Party: Labour Claim (£): 403.59 Fuel type: Electricity.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/your-mp-claim-energy-bills-2671685

    Did he get any free coal?
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    It seems to me that three things need to happen for the Tories to have a realistic chance of winning the next General Election:

    Firstly and probably most importantly the LibDems need to increase their share of the vote from approx 10% currently to at least 16%, with two thirds of this increased share coming from Labour.

    Secondly UKIP's share of the vote needs to fall from approx 12% currently to 6% with at least two thirds of those switching opting for the Tories.

    Thirdly there has to be a straight switch of at least 3% from Labour to the Tories.

    Assuming Labour currently has a 5% lead over the Tories, with these parties holding 38% and 33% of the vote respectively, the above movements I have suggested would result in each of their shares becoming:

    Labour 38% - 4% +2% - 3% = 33%

    Tories 33% - 2% +4% +3% =38%

    LibDems 10% + 6% = 16%

    UKIP 12% - 6% = 6%

    Others 7%

    Probably sufficient to result in the Tories winning the most seats without necessarily winning an overall majority. This looks like a very big ask to me on all three counts.
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    SeanT said:

    Mark Senior, -

    Surely calling a Lib Dem MP "dishonest" is not libellous - it is tautologous.

    Seems like my post was deleted, I'm quite happy to be sued if the post is considered libellous
    Whilst your offer is generous, the site doesn't allow defamatory comments, it will be the site owner who will be sued, and I suspect, when that moment comes, you will be nowhere to be seen.

    So if you wish to continue posting on here, you will desist with your approach
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    @Squareroot Both Balls and Osborne haven't made claims if the Mirror's list is correct.
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    It seems to me that three things need to happen for the Tories to have a realistic chance of winning the next General Election:

    Firstly and probably most importantly the LibDems need to increase their share of the vote from approx 10% currently to at least 16%, with two thirds of this increased share coming from Labour.

    Secondly UKIP's share of the vote needs to fall from approx 12% currently to 6% with at least two thirds of those switching opting for the Tories.

    Thirdly there has to be a straight switch of at least 3% from Labour to the Tories.

    Assuming Labour currently has a 5% lead over the Tories, with these parties holding 38% and 33% of the vote respectively, the above movements I have suggested would result in each of their shares becoming:

    Labour 38% - 4% +2% - 3% = 33%

    Tories 33% - 2% +4% +3% =38%

    LibDems 10% + 6% = 16%

    UKIP 12% - 6% = 6%

    Others 7%

    Probably sufficient to result in the Tories winning the most seats without necessarily winning an overall majority. This looks like a very big ask to me on all three counts.

    I agree they need to do three things:

    1. Enshrine in law an EU referendum will take place in 2015 regardless of who is in power.
    2. Repeal the climate change act
    3. Start fracking now.
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    Andrea should look away:

    "International Development Minister Alan Duncan claimed £2,750 for electricity bills and £1,250 in heating oil for his home in Rutland, Leicestershire..."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/mps-expenses-energy-bills-home-heating-nadhim-zahawi



    Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, founder of market research firm YouGov, claimed the most with a bill of £5,822.27 covering electricity and heating oil for his Warwickshire estate.

    That's just plain nuts. Why the feck do we have to pay for him to live on an estate anyway? That's his choice, he should pay for his own energy use, over and above the national average.
    There is a case that could be made for paying energy cost for required second homes despite their (by most people's standards) very generous salaries.

    But claiming three or four times what the average household uses seems excessive - and, with a bit of luck - politically damaging....
    There should certainly be a change to the rule that says you choose which home to claim expenses for, you should be able to claim no more than the cost of a one bed pied a terre either in London or in your constituency. MPs living close enough to London to commute should be paid the cost of a second class season ticket and if they choose to maintain a second home, it's at their own expense.

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    SeanT said:

    Mark Senior, -

    Surely calling a Lib Dem MP "dishonest" is not libellous - it is tautologous.

    Seems like my post was deleted, I'm quite happy to be sued if the post is considered libellous
    Whilst your offer is generous, the site doesn't allow defamatory comments, it will be the site owner who will be sued, and I suspect, when that moment comes, you will be nowhere to be seen.

    So if you wish to continue posting on here, you will desist with your approach
    I would take responsibility and would not expect anyone to take blame on my behalf, nevertheless I will agree to your request
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Ishmael

    "A slur of which the Met would be proud, and no one else should be."

    Well said. There are some really nasty pieces of work posting here. GeoffM just being one of several these days.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    tim said:

    @Peter

    At some point the Tories are going to have to confront the issue of Cameron and Osborne being unable to attract the voters they need.
    Cameron is likely to put Osborne before winning elections as he did last time, and I'm pleased about that, but the obvious move this time is to replace Osborne with Theresa May, as he should have replaced him with Phil Hammond last time.

    It would be quite an achievement for Cameron to fail to get a majority against Brown, lose the boundary changes, split the right and oppose AV then fail to gain from an economic recovery because he and Osborne are seen as being too out of touch,but he could feasibly achieve it.

    Which Tory do you think would would do best for the party at the next election as leader?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited November 2013
    PeterthePunter The Tories could still win a majority with the LDs on 10% as they would win a large number of LD seats on such a low LD total. They do need to win back large numbers of voters lost to UKIP though as you correctly point out so their vote holds up in Tory v Labour marginals. The Labour vote is likely to be about 35/36% whatever happens so a 3% gain from a Labour total of about 38/39% at present is about the best the Tories can hope for
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    AndyJS said:

    tim said:

    @Peter

    At some point the Tories are going to have to confront the issue of Cameron and Osborne being unable to attract the voters they need.
    Cameron is likely to put Osborne before winning elections as he did last time, and I'm pleased about that, but the obvious move this time is to replace Osborne with Theresa May, as he should have replaced him with Phil Hammond last time.

    It would be quite an achievement for Cameron to fail to get a majority against Brown, lose the boundary changes, split the right and oppose AV then fail to gain from an economic recovery because he and Osborne are seen as being too out of touch,but he could feasibly achieve it.

    Which Tory do you think would would do best for the party at the next election as leader?
    For me it would be David Davies but I doubt many would agree with me
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    edited November 2013

    AndyJS said:

    tim said:

    @Peter

    At some point the Tories are going to have to confront the issue of Cameron and Osborne being unable to attract the voters they need.
    Cameron is likely to put Osborne before winning elections as he did last time, and I'm pleased about that, but the obvious move this time is to replace Osborne with Theresa May, as he should have replaced him with Phil Hammond last time.

    It would be quite an achievement for Cameron to fail to get a majority against Brown, lose the boundary changes, split the right and oppose AV then fail to gain from an economic recovery because he and Osborne are seen as being too out of touch,but he could feasibly achieve it.

    Which Tory do you think would would do best for the party at the next election as leader?
    For me it would be David Davies but I doubt many would agree with me
    David Davies is past it unfortunately.He would have done OK in 2010,probably got the same number of votes as Cameron.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited November 2013
    Roger said:

    @Ishmael

    "A slur of which the Met would be proud, and no one else should be."

    Well said. There are some really nasty pieces of work posting here. GeoffM just being one of several these days.

    Like Button

    Being disliked by the hilarious self-parody Roger is as much a badge of distinction as getting a "Troll" on here from Hortence Wittering. I'd be concerned it it were any other way.

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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    edited November 2013
    SMukesh said:

    AndyJS said:

    tim said:

    @Peter

    At some point the Tories are going to have to confront the issue of Cameron and Osborne being unable to attract the voters they need.
    Cameron is likely to put Osborne before winning elections as he did last time, and I'm pleased about that, but the obvious move this time is to replace Osborne with Theresa May, as he should have replaced him with Phil Hammond last time.

    It would be quite an achievement for Cameron to fail to get a majority against Brown, lose the boundary changes, split the right and oppose AV then fail to gain from an economic recovery because he and Osborne are seen as being too out of touch,but he could feasibly achieve it.

    Which Tory do you think would would do best for the party at the next election as leader?
    For me it would be David Davies but I doubt many would agree with me
    David Davies is past it unfortunately.He would have done OK in 2010,probably got the same number of votes as Cameron.
    Did you mean David Davis?

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    HYUFD - I'm sorry to inform you that you owe the PB.com Social Fund the princely sum of £1.
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    SMukesh said:

    AndyJS said:

    tim said:

    @Peter

    At some point the Tories are going to have to confront the issue of Cameron and Osborne being unable to attract the voters they need.
    Cameron is likely to put Osborne before winning elections as he did last time, and I'm pleased about that, but the obvious move this time is to replace Osborne with Theresa May, as he should have replaced him with Phil Hammond last time.

    It would be quite an achievement for Cameron to fail to get a majority against Brown, lose the boundary changes, split the right and oppose AV then fail to gain from an economic recovery because he and Osborne are seen as being too out of touch,but he could feasibly achieve it.

    Which Tory do you think would would do best for the party at the next election as leader?
    For me it would be David Davies but I doubt many would agree with me
    David Davies is past it unfortunately.He would have done OK in 2010,probably got the same number of votes as Cameron without getting into the pickle that Cameron has got into with Coulson.
    He's 64 and seems younger, hardly past it. St Vince still has ambitions and he's 70 (ish)
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334
    GeoffM said:


    Which puts him in a good light when it comes to expenses

    No, it puts him in a very bad light, along with many others, for taking the piss out of the system.
    Legg merely found no reason to add Palmer and others to the list of Labour MPs who ended up in court.

    Legg was looking at who had made unwarranted claims. He found that I hadn't made any. I don't think you can reasonably describe that as putting me "in a very bad light" or "taking the piss".

    You're of course entitled to a view on what MPs should be allowed to claim for (in my case 3 FTE staff and a one-bedroom flat rented near Parliament - fuel costs were pretty small), but I don't think most people would think it odd to use the staff allowance for staff and the rental allowance for rent. If an allowance is too generous, cut it, but don't take a sinister view when people use an allowance in accordance with both the letter and the spirit of its purpose. Isn't that what you do in your job?

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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650

    SMukesh said:

    AndyJS said:

    tim said:

    @Peter

    At some point the Tories are going to have to confront the issue of Cameron and Osborne being unable to attract the voters they need.
    Cameron is likely to put Osborne before winning elections as he did last time, and I'm pleased about that, but the obvious move this time is to replace Osborne with Theresa May, as he should have replaced him with Phil Hammond last time.

    It would be quite an achievement for Cameron to fail to get a majority against Brown, lose the boundary changes, split the right and oppose AV then fail to gain from an economic recovery because he and Osborne are seen as being too out of touch,but he could feasibly achieve it.

    Which Tory do you think would would do best for the party at the next election as leader?
    For me it would be David Davies but I doubt many would agree with me
    David Davies is past it unfortunately.He would have done OK in 2010,probably got the same number of votes as Cameron without getting into the pickle that Cameron has got into with Coulson.
    He's 64 and seems younger, hardly past it. St Vince still has ambitions and he's 70 (ish)
    That sort of age seems to be a negative factor these days.Vince is not trying to be PM of this country.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    What could possibly motivate the politicians to want to muzzle the press?

    I cannot think of any reasons, any suggestions?
    antifrank said:

    The renewed expenses scandal shows again why we need OFPOL. We need regulatory oversight of politicians' honesty and competence, with sweeping powers to intervene.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited November 2013
    Nigel4England Davis would probably have not got as many swing voters who voted for Blair switching to the Tories as Cameron got, they would instead have gone to Clegg, so the Tory share would likely have been a little lower and the LD vote slightly higher. A Davis led Tory party would probably have got about 33/34%, not much different from what Michael Howard got, Labour would probably have been unchanged on 29%, but the LDs would likely have been higher on about 25/26%. As Clegg would never have formed a coalition with Davis, who he has much less in common with ideologically than Cameron, the likely result would either have been a Tory minority government or a Labour-LD coalition, with either Alan Johnson or David Miliband succeeding Brown as PM as the price for Clegg's support. However, Davis would not have lost the votes Cameron now has to UKIP
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    PeterthePunter Must have missed that?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited November 2013

    If an allowance is too generous, cut it, but don't take a sinister view when people use an allowance in accordance with both the letter and the spirit of its purpose. Isn't that what you do in your job?

    That's where we part company, I think. The (allowed) allowances were within the letter of the agreement - certainly when the agreement was precisely drafted. There were examples (in the Lords especially) where the wording was vague enough that claims were made of a sort unintended by the drafters.

    But the spirit of allowances? Not at all. I don't think that the spirit extended to bathplugs and biscuits and renting skin-flicks and a Tom Watson all-you-can-eat food allowance and renting offices to yourselves and employing swathes of your families to lick envelopes. Home flipping, especially when it allowed London MPs to have second homes was all within the letter of the allowances but within the spirit? Pull the other one and listen to the bells.

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    I'm thinking of now.

    Davis would certainly bring many UKIP voters back into the fold at the GE, Crosby is as arrogant as Cameron and just assumes UKIP voters will return forthwith.

    He is wrong.
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    Osborne has done well in a very difficult position.

    However he is viewed as a person is immaterial, he has managed to turn a catostrophic situation around without relating mass unemployment and deserves huge credit for that.

    And I am not a Tory"
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Foxetc

    "What could possibly motivate the politicians to want to muzzle the press?

    I cannot think of any reasons, any suggestions? "

    Do you really think that or are you just trying to be smart?
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    HYUFD said:

    Nigel4England Davis would probably have not got as many swing voters who voted for Blair switching to the Tories as Cameron got, they would instead have gone to Clegg, so the Tory share would likely have been a little lower and the LD vote slightly higher. A Davis led Tory party would probably have got about 33/34%, not much different from what Michael Howard got, Labour would probably have been unchanged on 29%, but the LDs would likely have been higher on about 25/26%. As Clegg would never have formed a coalition with Davis, who he has much less in common with ideologically than Cameron, the likely result would either have been a Tory minority government or a Labour-LD coalition, with either Alan Johnson or David Miliband succeeding Brown as PM as the price for Clegg's support. However, Davis would not have lost the votes Cameron now has to UKIP

    Oh David Davis would have found something to resign about - even as Leader - before 2010, having knifed his colleagues beforehand.

    Ghastly, ghastly man. For once, the Tories elected the right person in 2005. And he's still the best. By far.
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    Roger said:

    @Foxetc

    "What could possibly motivate the politicians to want to muzzle the press?

    I cannot think of any reasons, any suggestions? "

    Do you really think that or are you just trying to be smart?

    Obviously you're not
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    dr_spyn said:
    Great to see Huhne back. The sharpest brain in British politics
    HYUFD said:

    Nigel4England Davis would probably have not got as many swing voters who voted for Blair switching to the Tories as Cameron got, they would instead have gone to Clegg, so the Tory share would likely have been a little lower and the LD vote slightly higher. A Davis led Tory party would probably have got about 33/34%, not much different from what Michael Howard got, Labour would probably have been unchanged on 29%, but the LDs would likely have been higher on about 25/26%. As Clegg would never have formed a coalition with Davis, who he has much less in common with ideologically than Cameron, the likely result would either have been a Tory minority government or a Labour-LD coalition, with either Alan Johnson or David Miliband succeeding Brown as PM as the price for Clegg's support. However, Davis would not have lost the votes Cameron now has to UKIP

    If the numbers had been right Clegg would have formed a coalition with David Davis

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    David Davis as Tory leader would have made most Tories yearn for the the Halcyon days of IDS' leadership.

    Even Gordon Brown would have defeated him 2007.
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    dr_spyn said:
    Great to see Huhne back. The sharpest brain in British politics
    HYUFD said:

    Nigel4England Davis would probably have not got as many swing voters who voted for Blair switching to the Tories as Cameron got, they would instead have gone to Clegg, so the Tory share would likely have been a little lower and the LD vote slightly higher. A Davis led Tory party would probably have got about 33/34%, not much different from what Michael Howard got, Labour would probably have been unchanged on 29%, but the LDs would likely have been higher on about 25/26%. As Clegg would never have formed a coalition with Davis, who he has much less in common with ideologically than Cameron, the likely result would either have been a Tory minority government or a Labour-LD coalition, with either Alan Johnson or David Miliband succeeding Brown as PM as the price for Clegg's support. However, Davis would not have lost the votes Cameron now has to UKIP

    If the numbers had been right Clegg would have formed a coalition with David Davis

    Blimey Mike, give the Huhne hero worship a rest, it's become embarassing
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    dr_spyn said:
    Great to see Huhne back. The sharpest brain in British politics
    Just a pity his brains were in his trousers in 2010.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334
    GeoffM said:

    If an allowance is too generous, cut it, but don't take a sinister view when people use an allowance in accordance with both the letter and the spirit of its purpose. Isn't that what you do in your job?

    That's where we part company, I think. The allowances were within the letter of the purpose when the letter was precisely drafted. There were examples (in the Lords especially) where the wording was vague enough that claims were made of a sort unintended by the drafters.

    But the spirit of allowances? Not at all. I don't think that the spirit extended to bathplugs and biscuits and renting skin-flicks and a Tom Watson all-you-can-eat food allowance and renting offices to yourselves and employing swathes of your families to lick envelopes. Home flipping, especially when it allowed London MPs to have second homes was all within the letter of the allowances but within the spirit? Pull the other one and listen to the bells.

    Sure. I'm saying that if people did follow the letter AND spirit (and I'd claim I did) then there isn't really anything to debate. If I'd rented skin-flicks or bought stuff to keep after I left Parliament it'd be different. But your original post suggested I was shown in a bad light and taking the piss without pointing to anything that you actually felt I'd done that wasn't in the spirit of the allowances. I think that's falling into the "they're all the same" generalisation. In particular, I didn't use the housing allowance to help buy property in any way: I rented a small flat with it, and when I left Parliament I left the flat, without any profit in any form. Why is that taking the piss?
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650

    Osborne has done well in a very difficult position.

    However he is viewed as a person is immaterial, he has managed to turn a catostrophic situation around without relating mass unemployment and deserves huge credit for that.

    And I am not a Tory"

    Osborne was never handed down a catastrophic situation though the coalition like to pretend that he was.The real catastrophe was in 2007/8 when queues were forming in front of Northern Rock but luckily we had a steady hand at the time to negotiate the situation.Not that Brown will get any credit on here.

    Osborne has had some successes but he`s nowhere done as well as the right would like to think he has.He has continued to miss the targets he had set for himself and by some margin.
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    SMukesh said:

    Osborne has done well in a very difficult position.

    However he is viewed as a person is immaterial, he has managed to turn a catostrophic situation around without relating mass unemployment and deserves huge credit for that.

    And I am not a Tory"

    Osborne was never handed down a catastrophic situation though the coalition like to pretend that he was.The real catastrophe was in 2007/8 when queues were forming in front of Northern Rock but luckily we had a steady hand at the time to negotiate the situation.Not that Brown will get any credit on here.

    Osborne has had some successes but he`s nowhere done as well as the right would like to think he has.He has continued to miss the targets he had set for himself and by some margin.
    I remember back in 2007, someone on here said that Northern Rock would be forgotten by next weekend.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    OGH Clegg would never have got a coalition with Davis through his party, the most he would have done is promise not to vote down a Davis minority Tory government in a vote of confidence
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    tim said:

    Osborne has done well in a very difficult position.

    However he is viewed as a person is immaterial, he has managed to turn a catostrophic situation around without relating mass unemployment and deserves huge credit for that.

    And I am not a Tory"

    Osbornes 2010 election campaign cost the Tories 5%, Osbornes Omnishambles 2012 cost them another 5%
    They are the two biggest poll movements of the last five years
    And brought the Tories back to within hailing distance (5-6%) with 18 months to go. Not even I thought that was likely this far out from the election.

    Poor you.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Tim In many ways May is a Merkel to Cameron's Blair and Boris's Berlusconi
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited November 2013
    HYUFD said:

    Tim In many ways May is a Merkel to Cameron's Blair and Boris's Berlusconi

    Too deep for me...I'm sure it's profound though.
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650

    SMukesh said:

    Osborne has done well in a very difficult position.

    However he is viewed as a person is immaterial, he has managed to turn a catostrophic situation around without relating mass unemployment and deserves huge credit for that.

    And I am not a Tory"

    Osborne was never handed down a catastrophic situation though the coalition like to pretend that he was.The real catastrophe was in 2007/8 when queues were forming in front of Northern Rock but luckily we had a steady hand at the time to negotiate the situation.Not that Brown will get any credit on here.

    Osborne has had some successes but he`s nowhere done as well as the right would like to think he has.He has continued to miss the targets he had set for himself and by some margin.
    I remember back in 2007, someone on here said that Northern Rock would be forgotten by next weekend.
    The fact that it`s nearly forgotten is a tribute to the way it was dealt with.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    JohnO I never sad he was a nice man and even Davis would not resign as leader. TSE Brown would still have bottled a 2007 election
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    SMukesh said:

    SMukesh said:

    Osborne has done well in a very difficult position.

    However he is viewed as a person is immaterial, he has managed to turn a catostrophic situation around without relating mass unemployment and deserves huge credit for that.

    And I am not a Tory"

    Osborne was never handed down a catastrophic situation though the coalition like to pretend that he was.The real catastrophe was in 2007/8 when queues were forming in front of Northern Rock but luckily we had a steady hand at the time to negotiate the situation.Not that Brown will get any credit on here.

    Osborne has had some successes but he`s nowhere done as well as the right would like to think he has.He has continued to miss the targets he had set for himself and by some margin.
    I remember back in 2007, someone on here said that Northern Rock would be forgotten by next weekend.
    The fact that it`s nearly forgotten is a tribute to the way it was dealt with.
    Unfortunately it is RBS that everyone remembers and the one we're still dealing with.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited November 2013

    It seems to me that three things need to happen for the Tories to have a realistic chance of winning the next General Election:

    Firstly and probably most importantly the LibDems need to increase their share of the vote from approx 10% currently to at least 16%, with two thirds of this increased share coming from Labour.

    Secondly UKIP's share of the vote needs to fall from approx 12% currently to 6% with at least two thirds of those switching opting for the Tories.

    Thirdly there has to be a straight switch of at least 3% from Labour to the Tories.

    Assuming Labour currently has a 5% lead over the Tories, with these parties holding 38% and 33% of the vote respectively, the above movements I have suggested would result in each of their shares becoming:

    Labour 38% - 4% +2% - 3% = 33%

    Tories 33% - 2% +4% +3% =38%

    LibDems 10% + 6% = 16%

    UKIP 12% - 6% = 6%

    Others 7%

    Probably sufficient to result in the Tories winning the most seats without necessarily winning an overall majority. This looks like a very big ask to me on all three counts.

    I'd agree with the assessment of what needs to happen.

    However, I think that both the LibDems and the UKIP shifts are more likely than not to happen.

    The Tory/Labour split I reckon will remain very similar: the electorate will view the question as essentially the same as last time (a gentle squeeze vs profligacy), so I don't see a reason for much direct shifting.

    As I've posted before, though, where that could shift is in Scotland - where the SNP not the Tories will benefit in vote share, but which represents downside to Labour (and possibly - I think - the Tories winning 1 or two seats by sneaking through the middle?)

    edit: but my outcome assessment is Tories largest party in a hung parliament. It may be hope though - perhaps more realistic is Labour largest in a hung parliament
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    HYUFD said:

    JohnO I never sad he was a nice man and even Davis would not resign as leader. TSE Brown would still have bottled a 2007 election

    I'm not sure.

    I know a Davis led Tory party would never been able to perform the way Dave and George did in 2007, which altered the narrative and the polls, and made Brown and Darling look like amateurs.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    HYUFD said:

    JohnO I never sad he was a nice man and even Davis would not resign as leader. TSE Brown would still have bottled a 2007 election

    As it's all counter-factual stuff we'll never know. But I seriously doubt whether a Davis led Tory party would have produced even a hung Parliament. Brown would now be well into his second term.

    In almost every sense, Davis was unsuited to be a party leader.
This discussion has been closed.