> > Yes on reflection, the bigger picture (literally) is a bad one and that was a bad thing. But I do still believe that Baker hasn't a racist bone in his body and was looking quickly for something to sum up the absurd (in his eyes) pomp and ceremony of a royal baby.
> >
> > But I do get the outrage.
>
> It really is best to avoid all simian references when discussing matters involving black people.
>
> I remember Roy Hodgson when England manager, half time team talk, Andros Townsend having a blinder, Roy urging his teammates to try and give him plenty of the ball.
>
> "Look, let's keep it simple," he said. "Just feed the monkey."
>
> Could have been a lot worse for him than it was. Luckily, Roy is so obviously not at all racist, the players knew that, no offence taken.
>
> But far preferable to have said, "Just feed Andros."
>
> If an animal term had to be used, for whatever reason, go with something like 'duck' or 'pigeon'.
Hodgson said ‘feed the monkey’ because it was part of a story about a monkey being fed. It would have been ridiculous to have said anything else.
> @TheValiant said: > And on my point about time, I'm probably not wrong in saying that Parliament probably only has about thirty sitting days until the end of October? > > They don't usually sit on Friday. They have another bank holiday later this month, and whilst not technically off, half of them will bugger off for half term. Summer is a nice long lazy six (Seven?) weeks off, and then back for a week (four days) in September (yawn, feel a bit tired after all that rest) before they go off again for a month during conferences. > > Someone tell me I'm wrong, and we really have loads of Parliamentary time left to sort out Brexit, because I'm not seeing it.
Seems a fair assessment but of course the HOC could curtail or cancel some of the holiday time off if necessary
> @SandyRentool said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @TOPPING said: > > > Danny Baker fired by BBC over royal baby chimp tweet, speaking of what's acceptable. > > > > > > He must be the world's greatest numpty if he didn't understand the implications of his tweet. > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693 > > > > > > There's a lot not to like about this. I took his explanation at face value. Not his job to police anyone else's racist thoughts. > > > > > > My immediate associations were Bishop Wilberforce making a twat of himself in the 1860 debate with Huxley* with the "descended from monkeys" attack, and "If you could see her through my eyes" from Cabaret. Neither is a good look. > > > I just don't recognize circus animals getting dressed up as a meme, and I don't see that Archie was dressed differently from any other 1 day old. > > > > > > *there is a lot of revisionism about whether he really did make a twat of himself. > > > > > > Yes on reflection, the bigger picture (literally) is a bad one and that was a bad thing. But I do still believe that Baker hasn't a racist bone in his body and was looking quickly for something to sum up the absurd (in his eyes) pomp and ceremony of a royal baby. > > > > > > But I do get the outrage. > > > > It also further shows what good PR it was for the royals to get Meghan into the family, they now get the PC vote with the new baby as well as the traditional patriotism vote behind the monarchy > > We get to have a vote on them now? Breaking news!
Obviously not unless a party is elected with a manifesto commitment for a referendum on becoming a Republic.
However the arrival of Diana, Kate and Meghan have probably ensured the royal family's future for the 21st century, that may not have been the case had Charles married Camilla in the first place
BTW, how would this tweet be interpreted if Nigel Farage, JRM or Christopher Chope had been the author? Would Danny Baker's friends be rushing to place a banter like gloss on it? And would Baker himself think that only diseased minds saw anything wrong in it?
It would be interpreted differently, because of offensive things those people have said previously, and because they don't have a history of poking fun at the establishment and media. Amazingly enough context does in fact matter, and if you take things out of context and apply the modern sensibility of "I'm offended by absolutely bloody everything at all times" you can find offense in otherwise innocuous things.
When you tweet you publish. When you publish there are no limits on who can encounter it or retweet it. In this case it is not at all clear what the 'inoffensive' context is. If it has to be carefully explained away to all the millions of people who have, understandably, never heard of Danny Baker and there is a glaringly obvious offensive series of meanings - each of which is aimed at a baby who has done no harm - your thin justification falls away.
> @kinabalu said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > > It also further shows what good PR it was for the royals to get Meghan into the family, they now get the PC vote with the new baby as well as the traditional patriotism vote behind the monarchy > > If they were up for election, that is. And who knows, perhaps one day they will be.
And they would now win any referendum easily, 68% of Britons think the monarchy is a good thing including an astonishing 61% of 18 to 24s.
> Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy. > > The child points at him and says "you're a monkey". > > After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey." > > True story.
Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say.
Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
> @kinabalu said: > > @TOPPING said: > > > Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy. > > > > The child points at him and says "you're a monkey". > > > > After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey." > > > > True story. > > Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc. > > You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say. > > > Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet - > > Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
I expect that's what he did mean. But, one would have to be brain-dead not to realise that depicting a mixed-race child as a monkey is going to be offensive. Especially, as there were some nasty memes on social media when the marriage took place, along the lines of "Meghan Markle's family" - above a troop of chimpanzees.
> @isam said: > > @isam said: > > > https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months > > > > Absurd analogy klaxon. > > Really? Why?
Isam, is that a serious question? You can't possibly compare colonial Rhodesia with Brexit. It's like comparing Tottenham Hotspur's comeback with nettle soup. I'm sure if you worked hard enough you'd find something contrived, sting in the tail for example, but that's about it.
> @kinabalu said: > > Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet - > > Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
Yep. I'm afraid there are some places you simply don't, and can't, go. The N word continues to be one, unless you're a black rapper.
Given the current & high profile issues with racism in football, monkey chants in Montenegro for example, it's one of the most crass and stupid tweets ever to be seen on twitter. Tho' that's saying something.
The two should not need to be compared together! That they choose to do so demonstrates it must be bad I think.
On bollocks as offensive pretty sure we could get away with that one at school on writing assignments, along with damn. It's a decent if childish slogan and effective.
> @isam said: > > @isam said: > > > twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440 > > > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months > > Absurd analogy klaxon. > > Really? Why?
Because it wasn’t really no deal, it had lots of support from Apartheid South Africa and Fascist Portugal (its situation didn’t really become untenable until Mozambique gained independence in 1975) and then it collapsed, ending up in a far worse situation than it would have had. Your analogy if correct would result in Britain experiencing a couple of decades of worsening penury before finally rejoining with the Euro and Schengen.
> > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months
>
>
>
> Absurd analogy klaxon.
>
> Really? Why?
Isam, is that a serious question? You can't possibly compare colonial Rhodesia with Brexit. It's like comparing Tottenham Hotspur's comeback with nettle soup. I'm sure if you worked hard enough you'd find something contrived, sting in the tail for example, but that's about it.
I think they are quite comparable. Rhodesia wanted independence from the British State, couldn’t agree terms and went their own way which seemingly left them ostracised and financially worse off, which is what most politicians say of No Deal
I expect that's what he did mean. But, one would have to be brain-dead not to realise that depicting a mixed-race child as a monkey is going to be offensive. Especially, as there were some nasty memes on social media when the marriage took place, along the lines of "Meghan Markle's family" - above a troop of chimpanzees.
I think that's probably right. I was going to say that that means he was sacked for being an idiot but if his tweet emboldened or normalised racist thoughts and inspired racism then I can see why action had to be taken.
Oh if only every person of supposed influence at an institution whose actions have emboldened and created a benign environment for racists could likewise be sacked.
> I think they are quite comparable. Rhodesia wanted independence from the British State, couldn’t agree terms and went their own way which seemingly left them ostracised and financially worse off, which is what most politicians say of No Deal >
Nettle soup. Told you.
Britain has roughly the 5th largest economy in the world. It's in Europe even if and when it leaves the EU, not 7500 miles away. It has an integrated infrastructure with the EU and existing trade tariffs. In terms of our manufacturing and service industries there is almost literally nothing whatsoever in common with 1960's Rhodesia.
I could go on and on and on but I'm sure when you've taken time to reflect on it, you'd rather I didn't.
> @Foxy said: > https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440 > > > > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months > > Are you really suggesting that Ian Smith's Rhodesia is the right model for Brexit Britain? > > Rhodesia got very significant aid from neighbouring apartheid South Africa, but who would be our friendly equivalent?
It'll come with (bad) conditions but the closest equivalent would be the USA with a GOP President and congress sweep in 2020.
> @Sean_F said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @TOPPING said: > > > > > Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy. > > > > > > The child points at him and says "you're a monkey". > > > > > > After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey." > > > > > > True story. > > > > Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc. > > > > You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say. > > > > > > Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet - > > > > Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey. > > I expect that's what he did mean. But, one would have to be brain-dead not to realise that depicting a mixed-race child as a monkey is going to be offensive. Especially, as there were some nasty memes on social media when the marriage took place, along the lines of "Meghan Markle's family" - above a troop of chimpanzees.
Doesn't that mean you just call him an absolute twat for being so stupid. You only fire him from his job for being a racist or a persistent twat. If he isn't either, you shouldn't.
By all accounts he appears not to be racist. His joke had a completely different meaning and he had brain failure in not spotting the obvious implication.
On the same topic, one thing that always bugged me was people saying offensive things in private or when drunk, being caught out and who hold a position where those views are unacceptable and then giving the excuse it was in private or when drunk so its ok. I don't care if what you say is in public or private or you were drunk; if you hold views that are unacceptable for the position you hold then tough. To me that is a weird justification. I don't suddenly become a racist, or homophobic, or whatever once I close my front door or have a few beers.
Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
You seem quite woke for a conservative
Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
Much as I think it near-unbelievable that @Ishmael_Z has not heard of Danny Baker, likewise I have probably equally improbably not bothered to find out exactly what woke means.
Does it involve growing a beard and serving coffee?
Erm, that's not what happened with Leadsom at all. The Remain side of the party (plus quite a few pragmatic Leavers) largely united around May, though there was a pocket for Crabb-Javid. Whereas the Leavers split between Johnson [then Gove], Leadsom and Fox.
A final three of May v Leadsom v Gove then gave her a colossal lead amongst MPs to take to the membership.
Astonishing to think that Widdy actually supported Ken Clarke in his Tory leadership bid. So she wanted as PM a man who would have led us into bondage simply because he'd have been politically successful. How does that work?
> @isam said: > > @isam said: > > > > @isam said: > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months > > > > > > > > > > > > Absurd analogy klaxon. > > > > > > Really? Why? > > > > Isam, is that a serious question? You can't possibly compare colonial Rhodesia with Brexit. It's like comparing Tottenham Hotspur's comeback with nettle soup. I'm sure if you worked hard enough you'd find something contrived, sting in the tail for example, but that's about it. > > I think they are quite comparable. Rhodesia wanted independence from the British State, couldn’t agree terms and went their own way which seemingly left them ostracised and financially worse off, which is what most politicians say of No Deal
> @Sean_F said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @TOPPING said: > > > > > Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy. > > > > > > The child points at him and says "you're a monkey". > > > > > > After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey." > > > > > > True story. > > > > Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc. > > > > You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say. > > > > > > Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet - > > > > Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey. > > I expect that's what he did mean. But, one would have to be brain-dead not to realise that depicting a mixed-race child as a monkey is going to be offensive. Especially, as there were some nasty memes on social media when the marriage took place, along the lines of "Meghan Markle's family" - above a troop of chimpanzees.
Baker is also a Millwall fan, so presumably not a Metropolitan luvvie living in a bubble that seals it off from genuine racism.
When you tweet you publish. When you publish there are no limits on who can encounter it or retweet it. In this case it is not at all clear what the 'inoffensive' context is. If it has to be carefully explained away to all the millions of people who have, understandably, never heard of Danny Baker and there is a glaringly obvious offensive series of meanings - each of which is aimed at a baby who has done no harm - your thin justification falls away.
Well I disagree, context matters, and I'd be amazed if 1 in 100 of people who listen to Danny Baker think "he's a racist, and meant a racist intent". The fact that a symbol, word, or image can have multiple meanings is obvious, and if offence is simply a matter of perception then essentially everything is potential offensive.
Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
> @TOPPING said: > Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc. > > You seem quite woke for a conservative > > > Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet - > > Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey. > > Much as I think it near-unbelievable that @Ishmael_Z has not heard of Danny Baker, likewise I have probably equally improbably not bothered to find out exactly what woke means. > > Does it involve growing a beard and serving coffee?
Here's a good example of woke students (Obviously not the presenters )
Given the current & high profile issues with racism in football, monkey chants in Montenegro for example, it's one of the most crass and stupid tweets ever to be seen on twitter. Tho' that's saying something.
It's probably not even in the top 100,000 offensive things posted on Twitter in the last 24 hours.
> I think they are quite comparable. Rhodesia wanted independence from the British State, couldn’t agree terms and went their own way which seemingly left them ostracised and financially worse off, which is what most politicians say of No Deal
>
Nettle soup. Told you.
Britain has roughly the 5th largest economy in the world. It's in Europe even if and when it leaves the EU, not 7500 miles away. It has an integrated infrastructure with the EU and existing trade tariffs. In terms of our manufacturing and service industries there is almost literally nothing whatsoever in common with 1960's Rhodesia.
I could go on and on and on but I'm sure when you've taken time to reflect on it, you'd rather I didn't.
UDI meant Rhodesia cutting ties with almost every other country in the world, making it much harder to trade, which is equivalent to WTO terms Brexit
> @glw said: > Given the current & high profile issues with racism in football, monkey chants in Montenegro for example, it's one of the most crass and stupid tweets ever to be seen on twitter. Tho' that's saying something. > > It's probably not even in the top 100,000 offensive things posted on Twitter in the last 24 hours.
Sorry but you are utterly wrong.
It's deeply deeply offensive and f-ing stupid.
He got sacked. Rightly.
p.s. Going to be extremely patronising here, but I suggest you go away and do some reading up on the history of slavery and racism in the western world and Africa over the last 300 years, to include recent problems in football with monkey chants and media trolling on Meghan and her family. Then come back in a few weeks time and comment on this again when you've learned about it. See, told you it was patronising. It's also correct.
OK, it turns out that on current polling the tactical voting solution is for everybody in England to vote LibDem. This kind-of shows the limits of trying to do the whole thing impartially and mathematically rather than involving actual politics: It's hard to get Greens on board with this if your idea is for them not to get any seats.
It says they'll have another go with new polling on May 21st, though.
But if we spend Sunday watching Brexit win just ahead of the Lib Dems by 3% and the Greens get 4% - it's going to be frustrating seeing the poison dwarf smirking away like he's just got hold of a pot of Rheingold.
> @Stark_Dawning said: > https://twitter.com/bbcr4today/status/1126402756993081346 > > > > Astonishing to think that Widdy actually supported Ken Clarke in his Tory leadership bid. So she wanted as PM a man who would have led us into bondage simply because he'd have been politically successful. How does that work?
There is a strong steak of Corbyn like contrarianism in Miss Widdecombe. Her ego encourages her to take controversial positions on most things. It is why she is not a serious politician, and why she is now a candidate for the Brexit Nationalist Party, which is a natural home for people like her.
Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it!
There are genuinely colourblind people out there Foxy and I believe Danny Baker is one of them. Huge fucking idiot I accept, but not racist.
His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism.
The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.)
Baker is also a Millwall fan, so presumably not a Metropolitan luvvie living in a bubble that seals it off from genuine racism.
He's quite middle class now, even if his background is solidly working class, and he's a Corbyn supporting Remainer. Maybe those were warning signs about his incipient racism?
Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so
> @Recidivist said: > OK, it turns out that on current polling the tactical voting solution is for everybody in England to vote LibDem. This kind-of shows the limits of trying to do the whole thing impartially and mathematically rather than involving actual politics: It's hard to get Greens on board with this if your idea is for them not to get any seats. > > > > https://www.remainunited.org/be-tactical/ > > > > It says they'll have another go with new polling on May 21st, though. > > But if we spend Sunday watching Brexit win just ahead of the Lib Dems by 3% and the Greens get 4% - it's going to be frustrating seeing the poison dwarf smirking away like he's just got hold of a pot of Rheingold.
No, it needs maximum pro-EU MEPs. Maximum percentage vote is already achieved by lifelong supporters of other parties, like Heseltine, not voting Labour or in his case Tory.
The only way to maximise MEPs is tactical vote-swapping between regions.
Even that's probably not on, given the egotistical nature pf politicians like Umunna.
Private Eye reveals some minor skeletons in Dorrell's cupboard, making C.UK much more of a One Nation Tory party than anything else. Still, that's where the gap in the market is.
> Given the current & high profile issues with racism in football, monkey chants in Montenegro for example, it's one of the most crass and stupid tweets ever to be seen on twitter. Tho' that's saying something.
>
> It's probably not even in the top 100,000 offensive things posted on Twitter in the last 24 hours.
Sorry but you are utterly wrong.
It's deeply deeply offensive and f-ing stupid.
He got sacked. Rightly.
p.s. Going to be extremely patronising here, but I suggest you go away and do some reading up on the history of slavery and racism in the western world and Africa over the last 300 years, to include recent problems in football with monkey chants and media trolling on Meghan and her family. Then come back in a few weeks time and comment on this again when you've learned about it.
See, told you it was patronising. It's also correct.
Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so
The market also had Neil Hamilton 2nd in Newport West.
> @TOPPING said: > > Much as I think it near-unbelievable that @Ishmael_Z has not heard of Danny Baker, likewise I have probably equally improbably not bothered to find out exactly what woke means. > > Does it involve growing a beard and serving coffee?
Oh, I might have to withdraw the compliment then. You are unlikely to be very woke if you don't know what it means.
On the right lines with coffee, beard etc, but plenty to work on.
> @Wulfrun_Phil said: > > @david_herdson said: > > > @justin124 said: > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > Cluless Corbyn still pushing his we are the party to unite the country guff . And to say the country isn’t split across Remain and Leave , really what planet is he on . > > > > > > > > All Remainers need to ditch Labour , get behind the Lib Dems . > > > > > > Not many of them will want to support the Tories' Little Helpers! > > > > That argument has a limited life-span and the locals suggested that we might be coming to the end of it. > > > > It's only four years since the end of the Coalition and the man who trebled tuition fees is still leader of the Lib Dems but the reality is that that issue is long gone as a driving force - the 18-year old students starting at university this September were at primary school when the Lib Dems ratted on their election promise - and Brexit and Corbyn have driven revolutions in voting behaviour, not least in that the gap between the Lib Dems and Tories is massively wider now than in 2010 and the prospect of a repeat of the Rose Garden love-in is vanishingly remote and, hence, not really credible as a scare tactic. > > If Labour Remainers want to abandon Corbyn in the Euro elections for an unequivocal party of Remain, then they have 3 choices: Lib Dems, Greens or CHUK. > > Of those three, why on earth in a PR based election should they choose the party which was complicit in ushering in a a period of Conservative austerity, sustained that programme for a full 5 year parliament and is still led by a former Secretary of State from that Government? > > Memories will take a long time to fade. As time passes, the number of students suffering under the punitive tuition fees regime originally brought in by Cable is only growing, as is the number of former students now paying those fees back in real deductions from their take home pay and receiving annual statements reminding them that those huge debts will be there to repay for pretty well the rest of their working lives.
The local elections this month (and, for that matter, opinion polls in general) suggest that the public is already moving on. How many of the public even know that Cable was in the government from 2010-15? To be fair, he generally did his best at the time to give the impression he was in opposition. And Cable's tenure in the Lib Dem leader's office isn't going to last long, moving them even further from the pre-2015 era.
Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it!
There are genuinely colourblind people out there Foxy and I believe Danny Baker is one of them. Huge fucking idiot I accept, but not racist.
His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism.
The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.)
White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well?
Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so
The market also had Neil Hamilton 2nd in Newport West.
I’m just responding to the point that the candidate choice surely makes labour favs, because it did the opposite
> Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
>
> You seem quite woke for a conservative
>
>
> Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
>
> Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
>
> Much as I think it near-unbelievable that @Ishmael_Z has not heard of Danny Baker, likewise I have probably equally improbably not bothered to find out exactly what woke means.
>
> Does it involve growing a beard and serving coffee?
Here's a good example of woke students (Obviously not the presenters )
With the quote system as it is I am not sure who said that, but if asked who he was yesterday I would have guessed "someone on the telly", which I suppose suggests some subliminal level of awareness. I am quite good on Radio 2 bods, but r5 is a closed book to me.
btw it has just struck me that the other connotation of dressed up simians is Michael Jackson and Bubbles. Not sure what to make of that.
> @brokenwheel said: > > @Theuniondivvie said: > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > https://twitter.com/heidiallen75/status/1126458587398770689 > > > > > > > > @ForChange_Now, for now. > > > > Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity. > > > > Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him. > > The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so > > The market also had Neil Hamilton 2nd in Newport West.
Exactly. Backing Labour is probably now a value bet.
> @isam said: > > White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well?
Just on a technical point, I do see similarities between the Baker and Hodgson use of the M word.
Danny meant circus monkey, Roy meant space monkey.
Both relate to a specific and non-racist thing.
Big context difference though. Half-time team talk in the dressing room vs Public tweet with accompanying visual of said monkey.
Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it!
There are genuinely colourblind people out there Foxy and I believe Danny Baker is one of them. Huge fucking idiot I accept, but not racist.
His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism.
The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.)
White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well?
> Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
>
> The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so
>
> The market also had Neil Hamilton 2nd in Newport West.
Exactly. Backing Labour is probably now a value bet.
What is the motivation for voting Labour in Peterborough?
No leavers will Neither will any hardcore remainers Plenty will be disgusted with the behaviour of the ex Labour MP Labour only won in 2017 when they promised to back Brexit and UKIP didn’t stand
Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it!
There are genuinely colourblind people out there Foxy and I believe Danny Baker is one of them. Huge fucking idiot I accept, but not racist.
His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism.
The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.)
White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well?
As I said I believe he is genuinely colourblind.
This is a disgusting post and you should be banned.
I think you’ll find the term “colourblind” is now racist too.
Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it!
There are genuinely colourblind people out there Foxy and I believe Danny Baker is one of them. Huge fucking idiot I accept, but not racist.
His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism.
The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.)
White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well?
As I said I believe he is genuinely colourblind.
This is a disgusting post and you should be banned.
I think you’ll find the term “colourblind” is now racist too.
I was told off once for asking for a black coffee in a non-chain coffee shop (I was told I should have said "without milk"). So a pattern is definitely emerging.
I was told off once for asking for a black coffee in a non-chain coffee shop (I was told I should have said "without milk"). So a pattern is definitely emerging.
Logically shouldn't the choice really be coffee or coffee with milk? You don't normally specify things by what they don't contain. "Large cod and chips please, with no beetroot."
I was told off once for asking for a black coffee in a non-chain coffee shop (I was told I should have said "without milk"). So a pattern is definitely emerging.
Logically shouldn't the choice really be coffee or coffee with milk? You don't normally specify things by what they don't contain. "Large cod and chips please, with no beetroot."
> @GIN1138 said: > Is it Change UK, For_Change UK or ForChange_ Now UK? > > No one seems to know what the hell this party is actually called (including its leaders) ?
> @Wulfrun_Phil said: > > @matt said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > > > https://twitter.com/bbcr4today/status/1126402756993081346 > > > > > > > > > > > > Daft old bat. > > > > It is so offensive to those who really lived in an unfree country and to those who fought to free them. Britain is a free country. The EU is not some totalitarian dictator. > > > > It’s not just hyperbole; it really is disgusting to make outrageously untrue statements like that. There are many parts of Europe which really knew what it is like to be unfree. Britain, thank God, was not and is not one of those countries. Politicians here ought to remember that. > > > > Brexiteers lie compulsively. Because they can. Because the media doesn’t pull them up on it, doesn’t have the ability to forensically question. Because their core vote is the ignorant and reactionary. > > This site has become a good place for Remainers to talk crap to each other.
> @glw said: > I was told off once for asking for a black coffee in a non-chain coffee shop (I was told I should have said "without milk"). So a pattern is definitely emerging. > > Logically shouldn't the choice really be coffee or coffee with milk? You don't normally specify things by what they don't contain. "Large cod and chips please, with no beetroot."
In less trendy establishments, 'a coffee' might well come with milk already in it as standard.
> @brokenwheel said: > Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it! > > There are genuinely colourblind people out there Foxy and I believe Danny Baker is one of them. Huge fucking idiot I accept, but not racist. > > His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism. > > The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.) > > White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well? > > As I said I believe he is genuinely colourblind. > > This is a disgusting post and you should be banned. > > I think you’ll find the term “colourblind” is now racist too. > > Sad thing is I’m not even joking.
While I think people are frequently looking for offence (and finding it where it is deserved...and where it isn't) "colourblindness" is an interesting case.
It is absolutely coming from a position of privilege - you can't be "colourblind" if you are on the discriminated-against side of that equation. So "colourblind" isn't seen as a sensitive position, which should be something more like "awareness but fairness".
And in this case, he wasn't aware, so made a massive blunder. For which he should be called to account and apologize. Which he did. But he probably shouldn't be sacked for it, unless there are a string of other examples.
The Corbyn "I didn't know about the mural" thing is a similar example. In his case, there are a string of other issues, which means it was his responsibility to be aware. And that's why I am less forgiving of him.
> > Sports bets are fine. Occasionally people wibble about them, but not too much.
>
>
>
> Since there is a lot of posting about politics without betting it seems reasonable that there should be posts about betting without politics. Where sports posts get irritating is when we get a whole stream of posts about some ongoing sports event that has nothing to do with betting at all. Updates on current scores etc. are simply spam since it is reasonable to assume that anyone actually interested is already watching or following the match.
>
> Bah Humbug, if it applies to sport then same should apply to politics.
But this is a politics site, that is the point. There are plenty of fan sites for sport.
also a betting site and most bets are on sports and they may well be betting on them
> @dr_spyn said: > Have any PBers had their postal vote ballot papers delivered?
I ditched that idea after my council at the time screwed it up for the Police Commissioner elections. Switched back to normal as ballot never arrived but I was marked as 'continually receiving postal ballots' even though I'm sure I never ticked that box
What would Ann Widdecombe know about the Second World War anyway? She was born in 1947. This shroud waving by people who in fact were far too young to know anything about the war, still less have fought in it, is one of the more repellent aspects of Farage's Poundland Fascism.
> @david_herdson said: > > @glw said: > > I was told off once for asking for a black coffee in a non-chain coffee shop (I was told I should have said "without milk"). So a pattern is definitely emerging. > > > > Logically shouldn't the choice really be coffee or coffee with milk? You don't normally specify things by what they don't contain. "Large cod and chips please, with no beetroot." > > In less trendy establishments, 'a coffee' might well come with milk already in it as standard.
I was back in Stoke a few weeks ago, where I ventured into shall we say a less trendy establishment.
To my surprise they had a proper espresso machine, so I ordered a double espresso, the output of which Maureen dumped into a large builder tea style mug, only for Margaret to tell Maureen they had special cups in the back for those special coffees. After several minutes, Maureen reappeared wiping the dust off an espresso cup.
> @david_herdson said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > Is it Change UK, For_Change UK or ForChange_ Now UK? > > > > No one seems to know what the hell this party is actually called (including its leaders) ? > > For now, Change UK. Dave.
> @GIN1138 said: > Is it Change UK, For_Change UK or ForChange_ Now? > > No one seems to know what the hell this party is actually called (including its leaders) ?
> @SandyRentool said: > > @dr_spyn said: > > Have any PBers had their postal vote ballot papers delivered? > > That nice Mr Farage is saving you all the bother and filling them in for you...
He won't be filling it in for me. I have my own pen.
> The local elections this month (and, for that matter, opinion polls in general) suggest that the public is already moving on. How many of the public even know that Cable was in the government from 2010-15? To be fair, he generally did his best at the time to give the impression he was in opposition. And Cable's tenure in the Lib Dem leader's office isn't going to last long, moving them even further from the pre-2015 era.
Yeah.. I think the LDs are out of the sin bin now, given the goldfish-like concentration span of the average voter. Ironically, I think the formation of Change UK has probably speeded that up (raise the idea of an alternative to the big two > turn out to be a bit less exciting than everyone thought > people grab on to the next passing alternative).
I'm not aligned to the LibDems by any stretch, but I think they got a raw deal for their time in government. They were only ever going to get a limited amount of airtime for their policies as the minor party (especially where those clashed with Tory ones), but in hindsight helped deliver remarkably stable government and probably put a bit of a brake on austerity.. maybe not much compared to Cameron's own instincts, but by helping to keep the right of the Tory party from cutting harder and faster. Considering the shitshow we've had since with a subsequent minority administration, I think they deserve much credit from the uncommitted voter.
> @isam said: > > @brokenwheel said: > > > > @Theuniondivvie said: > > > > > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/heidiallen75/status/1126458587398770689 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @ForChange_Now, for now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him. > > > > > > The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so > > > > > > The market also had Neil Hamilton 2nd in Newport West. > > > > Exactly. Backing Labour is probably now a value bet. > > What is the motivation for voting Labour in Peterborough? > > No leavers will > Neither will any hardcore remainers > Plenty will be disgusted with the behaviour of the ex Labour MP > Labour only won in 2017 when they promised to back Brexit and UKIP didn’t stand
The idea that 'no leaver' will vote Labour in Peterborough is just daft. You are assuming that every voter who supported Leave is as obsessed with the issue as you appear to be. It would not even be true of some voters who were firm Leave voters in 2016 - simply because other issues will override it. That is even more likely to be the case for those who remained genuinely undecided until the last moment before coming off the fence on a 51- 49 basis. I voted Leave - but will vote Labour on 23rd May. I will spoil my ballot paper at the General Election - but for reasons totally unrelated to Brexit.
I haven’t seen a single Leaver on here bring up “the good old days of empire”, it’s always Remainers imputing motives on others to discredit them. In reality no one actually holds those views.
It’s only Remainers who keep talking about it (negatively) as some kind of folk memory. It’s Remainers who are fighting the battles of the past, still living in a post-war mentality.
The Corbyn "I didn't know about the mural" thing is a similar example. In his case, there are a string of other issues, which means it was his responsibility to be aware. And that's why I am less forgiving of him.
The thing about Corbyn is he claims to have campaigned against almost all forms of discrimination for decades, so it's quite implausible to believe he genuinely didn't recognise some to the recent occurances. He ought to be highly attuned to such things, but strangely when it comes to his own party his powers wane.
I see Zimbabwe is now our favoured model for a post-Brexit Britain. Although, curiously, Robert Mugabe's greatest critic, Michael Ancram, was a Leaver!
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/17/roy-hodgson-apologises-space-monkey-joke
Danny Baker should know better than to post monkey pictures referring to babies with black mothers, really strange thing to do.
> And on my point about time, I'm probably not wrong in saying that Parliament probably only has about thirty sitting days until the end of October?
>
> They don't usually sit on Friday. They have another bank holiday later this month, and whilst not technically off, half of them will bugger off for half term. Summer is a nice long lazy six (Seven?) weeks off, and then back for a week (four days) in September (yawn, feel a bit tired after all that rest) before they go off again for a month during conferences.
>
> Someone tell me I'm wrong, and we really have loads of Parliamentary time left to sort out Brexit, because I'm not seeing it.
Seems a fair assessment but of course the HOC could curtail or cancel some of the holiday time off if necessary
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @TOPPING said:
> > > Danny Baker fired by BBC over royal baby chimp tweet, speaking of what's acceptable.
> > >
> > > He must be the world's greatest numpty if he didn't understand the implications of his tweet.
> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693
> > >
> > > There's a lot not to like about this. I took his explanation at face value. Not his job to police anyone else's racist thoughts.
> > >
> > > My immediate associations were Bishop Wilberforce making a twat of himself in the 1860 debate with Huxley* with the "descended from monkeys" attack, and "If you could see her through my eyes" from Cabaret. Neither is a good look.
> > > I just don't recognize circus animals getting dressed up as a meme, and I don't see that Archie was dressed differently from any other 1 day old.
> > >
> > > *there is a lot of revisionism about whether he really did make a twat of himself.
> > >
> > > Yes on reflection, the bigger picture (literally) is a bad one and that was a bad thing. But I do still believe that Baker hasn't a racist bone in his body and was looking quickly for something to sum up the absurd (in his eyes) pomp and ceremony of a royal baby.
> > >
> > > But I do get the outrage.
> >
> > It also further shows what good PR it was for the royals to get Meghan into the family, they now get the PC vote with the new baby as well as the traditional patriotism vote behind the monarchy
>
> We get to have a vote on them now? Breaking news!
Obviously not unless a party is elected with a manifesto commitment for a referendum on becoming a Republic.
However the arrival of Diana, Kate and Meghan have probably ensured the royal family's future for the 21st century, that may not have been the case had Charles married Camilla in the first place
> > @HYUFD said:
> >
> > It also further shows what good PR it was for the royals to get Meghan into the family, they now get the PC vote with the new baby as well as the traditional patriotism vote behind the monarchy
>
> If they were up for election, that is. And who knows, perhaps one day they will be.
And they would now win any referendum easily, 68% of Britons think the monarchy is a good thing including an astonishing 61% of 18 to 24s.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/09/08/monarchy-here-stay
There may be a generational divide on Brexit, there is no such generational divide over the monarchy
> Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy.
>
> The child points at him and says "you're a monkey".
>
> After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey."
>
> True story.
Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say.
Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
> https://twitter.com/VotePursglove/status/1126448382514483200
No, won't make any difference. Very few Labour voters are no dealers and Corbyn is only restating what Farage has said many times already.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1126453563566297088?s=20
> https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440
>
>
>
> Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months
Absurd analogy klaxon.
> > @TOPPING said:
>
> > Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy.
> >
> > The child points at him and says "you're a monkey".
> >
> > After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey."
> >
> > True story.
>
> Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
>
> You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say.
>
>
> Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
>
> Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
I expect that's what he did mean. But, one would have to be brain-dead not to realise that depicting a mixed-race child as a monkey is going to be offensive. Especially, as there were some nasty memes on social media when the marriage took place, along the lines of "Meghan Markle's family" - above a troop of chimpanzees.
> https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440
>
>
>
> Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months
UDI lasted from November 1965 - Autumn 1979.
> > @isam said:
>
> > https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months
>
>
>
> Absurd analogy klaxon.
>
> Really? Why?
Isam, is that a serious question? You can't possibly compare colonial Rhodesia with Brexit. It's like comparing Tottenham Hotspur's comeback with nettle soup. I'm sure if you worked hard enough you'd find something contrived, sting in the tail for example, but that's about it.
>
> Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
>
> Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
Yep. I'm afraid there are some places you simply don't, and can't, go. The N word continues to be one, unless you're a black rapper.
Given the current & high profile issues with racism in football, monkey chants in Montenegro for example, it's one of the most crass and stupid tweets ever to be seen on twitter. Tho' that's saying something.
On bollocks as offensive pretty sure we could get away with that one at school on writing assignments, along with damn. It's a decent if childish slogan and effective.
> > @isam said:
>
> > twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440
>
> > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months
>
> Absurd analogy klaxon.
>
> Really? Why?
Because it wasn’t really no deal, it had lots of support from Apartheid South Africa and Fascist Portugal (its situation didn’t really become untenable until Mozambique gained independence in 1975) and then it collapsed, ending up in a far worse situation than it would have had. Your analogy if correct would result in Britain experiencing a couple of decades of worsening penury before finally rejoining with the Euro and Schengen.
Rhodesia got very significant aid from neighbouring apartheid South Africa, but who would be our friendly equivalent?
EDIT: No, that does not work. He would be our Ian Smith. Our Mugabe (George Galloway?) would come along a little later.
Until Mrs T legitimised Mugabe, quite right, my mistake
> https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1126457155505225728
Once it gets to the knockout stage the Eurosceptic right will unite behind one candidate as they did for IDS, Davis and Leadsom
Oh if only every person of supposed influence at an institution whose actions have emboldened and created a benign environment for racists could likewise be sacked.
> I think they are quite comparable. Rhodesia wanted independence from the British State, couldn’t agree terms and went their own way which seemingly left them ostracised and financially worse off, which is what most politicians say of No Deal
>
Nettle soup. Told you.
Britain has roughly the 5th largest economy in the world. It's in Europe even if and when it leaves the EU, not 7500 miles away. It has an integrated infrastructure with the EU and existing trade tariffs. In terms of our manufacturing and service industries there is almost literally nothing whatsoever in common with 1960's Rhodesia.
I could go on and on and on but I'm sure when you've taken time to reflect on it, you'd rather I didn't.
> https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440
>
>
>
> Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months
>
> Are you really suggesting that Ian Smith's Rhodesia is the right model for Brexit Britain?
>
> Rhodesia got very significant aid from neighbouring apartheid South Africa, but who would be our friendly equivalent?
It'll come with (bad) conditions but the closest equivalent would be the USA with a GOP President and congress sweep in 2020.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @TOPPING said:
> >
> > > Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy.
> > >
> > > The child points at him and says "you're a monkey".
> > >
> > > After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey."
> > >
> > > True story.
> >
> > Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
> >
> > You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say.
> >
> >
> > Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
> >
> > Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
>
> I expect that's what he did mean. But, one would have to be brain-dead not to realise that depicting a mixed-race child as a monkey is going to be offensive. Especially, as there were some nasty memes on social media when the marriage took place, along the lines of "Meghan Markle's family" - above a troop of chimpanzees.
Doesn't that mean you just call him an absolute twat for being so stupid. You only fire him from his job for being a racist or a persistent twat. If he isn't either, you shouldn't.
By all accounts he appears not to be racist. His joke had a completely different meaning and he had brain failure in not spotting the obvious implication.
On the same topic, one thing that always bugged me was people saying offensive things in private or when drunk, being caught out and who hold a position where those views are unacceptable and then giving the excuse it was in private or when drunk so its ok. I don't care if what you say is in public or private or you were drunk; if you hold views that are unacceptable for the position you hold then tough. To me that is a weird justification. I don't suddenly become a racist, or homophobic, or whatever once I close my front door or have a few beers.
Does it involve growing a beard and serving coffee?
> https://twitter.com/heidiallen75/status/1126458587398770689
@ForChange_Now, for now.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1126457155505225728
>
> Once it gets to the knockout stage the Eurosceptic right will unite behind one candidate as they did for IDS, Davis and Leadsom
Erm, that's not what happened with Leadsom at all. The Remain side of the party (plus quite a few pragmatic Leavers) largely united around May, though there was a pocket for Crabb-Javid. Whereas the Leavers split between Johnson [then Gove], Leadsom and Fox.
A final three of May v Leadsom v Gove then gave her a colossal lead amongst MPs to take to the membership.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1126457155505225728
>
> Once it gets to the knockout stage the Eurosceptic right will unite behind one candidate as they did for IDS, Davis and Leadsom
Ah yes, the Brexit three; stupid, lazy and hopeless. Sums up the whole thinking behind the philosophy.
> > @isam said:
>
> > > @isam said:
>
> >
>
> > > https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1126419192813629440
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Rhodesia went for No Deal in the form of UDI, and lasted over two decades despite Harold Wilson predicting it wouldn’t last two months
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Absurd analogy klaxon.
>
> >
>
> > Really? Why?
>
>
>
> Isam, is that a serious question? You can't possibly compare colonial Rhodesia with Brexit. It's like comparing Tottenham Hotspur's comeback with nettle soup. I'm sure if you worked hard enough you'd find something contrived, sting in the tail for example, but that's about it.
>
> I think they are quite comparable. Rhodesia wanted independence from the British State, couldn’t agree terms and went their own way which seemingly left them ostracised and financially worse off, which is what most politicians say of No Deal
Massive success story, Rhodesia.
> Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it!
Indeed.
You just can't. Simple as that.
And much as I occasionally dislike the BBC, they are in an especially high-profile position as a public broadcaster.
Instant sack, regardless of how stupid (incredibly) or intentional (perhaps not) it was.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @TOPPING said:
> >
> > > Friend of mine's wife was on the train once with their five year old. Sitting opposite a black guy.
> > >
> > > The child points at him and says "you're a monkey".
> > >
> > > After a moment, the mother reprimands the child gently and says to it "No. You're a monkey."
> > >
> > > True story.
> >
> > Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
> >
> > You seem quite woke for a Conservative, I have to say.
> >
> >
> > Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
> >
> > Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
>
> I expect that's what he did mean. But, one would have to be brain-dead not to realise that depicting a mixed-race child as a monkey is going to be offensive. Especially, as there were some nasty memes on social media when the marriage took place, along the lines of "Meghan Markle's family" - above a troop of chimpanzees.
Baker is also a Millwall fan, so presumably not a Metropolitan luvvie living in a bubble that seals it off from genuine racism.
> Pot calling kettle
>
> https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1126453563566297088?s=20
Indeed. They are two cheeks of the same extremist arse.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/heidiallen75/status/1126458587398770689
>
> @ForChange_Now, for now.
Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
> Early intervention. Excellent. Far less chance then of years later the boy going "ooo ooo ooo" at football matches and tossing bananas around etc etc.
>
> You seem quite woke for a conservative
>
>
> Re the (arguably) inoffensive meaning of Baker's tweet -
>
> Royal baby, ridiculous media circus, poor newborn, being treated like a circus monkey.
>
> Much as I think it near-unbelievable that @Ishmael_Z has not heard of Danny Baker, likewise I have probably equally improbably not bothered to find out exactly what woke means.
>
> Does it involve growing a beard and serving coffee?
Here's a good example of woke students (Obviously not the presenters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXhJiiSIZ4
> Baker is also a Millwall fan, so presumably not a Metropolitan luvvie living in a bubble that seals it off from genuine racism.
>
For anyone who knows anything about football in general, and Millwall in particular, that was a beautifully deft way of expressing it.
UDI meant Rhodesia cutting ties with almost every other country in the world, making it much harder to trade, which is equivalent to WTO terms Brexit
> Given the current & high profile issues with racism in football, monkey chants in Montenegro for example, it's one of the most crass and stupid tweets ever to be seen on twitter. Tho' that's saying something.
>
> It's probably not even in the top 100,000 offensive things posted on Twitter in the last 24 hours.
Sorry but you are utterly wrong.
It's deeply deeply offensive and f-ing stupid.
He got sacked. Rightly.
p.s. Going to be extremely patronising here, but I suggest you go away and do some reading up on the history of slavery and racism in the western world and Africa over the last 300 years, to include recent problems in football with monkey chants and media trolling on Meghan and her family. Then come back in a few weeks time and comment on this again when you've learned about it.
See, told you it was patronising. It's also correct.
> https://twitter.com/bbcr4today/status/1126402756993081346
>
>
>
> Astonishing to think that Widdy actually supported Ken Clarke in his Tory leadership bid. So she wanted as PM a man who would have led us into bondage simply because he'd have been politically successful. How does that work?
There is a strong steak of Corbyn like contrarianism in Miss Widdecombe. Her ego encourages her to take controversial positions on most things. It is why she is not a serious politician, and why she is now a candidate for the Brexit Nationalist Party, which is a natural home for people like her.
His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism.
The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.)
> OK, it turns out that on current polling the tactical voting solution is for everybody in England to vote LibDem. This kind-of shows the limits of trying to do the whole thing impartially and mathematically rather than involving actual politics: It's hard to get Greens on board with this if your idea is for them not to get any seats.
>
>
>
> https://www.remainunited.org/be-tactical/
>
>
>
> It says they'll have another go with new polling on May 21st, though.
>
> But if we spend Sunday watching Brexit win just ahead of the Lib Dems by 3% and the Greens get 4% - it's going to be frustrating seeing the poison dwarf smirking away like he's just got hold of a pot of Rheingold.
_____________________________________________________________
No, it needs maximum pro-EU MEPs. Maximum percentage vote is already achieved by lifelong supporters of other parties, like Heseltine, not voting Labour or in his case Tory.
The only way to maximise MEPs is tactical vote-swapping between regions.
Even that's probably not on, given the egotistical nature pf politicians like Umunna.
Private Eye reveals some minor skeletons in Dorrell's cupboard, making C.UK much more of a One Nation Tory party than anything else. Still, that's where the gap in the market is.
>
> Much as I think it near-unbelievable that @Ishmael_Z has not heard of Danny Baker, likewise I have probably equally improbably not bothered to find out exactly what woke means.
>
> Does it involve growing a beard and serving coffee?
Oh, I might have to withdraw the compliment then. You are unlikely to be very woke if you don't know what it means.
On the right lines with coffee, beard etc, but plenty to work on.
> > @david_herdson said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @nico67 said:
> > > > Cluless Corbyn still pushing his we are the party to unite the country guff . And to say the country isn’t split across Remain and Leave , really what planet is he on .
> > > >
> > > > All Remainers need to ditch Labour , get behind the Lib Dems .
> > >
> > > Not many of them will want to support the Tories' Little Helpers!
> >
> > That argument has a limited life-span and the locals suggested that we might be coming to the end of it.
> >
> > It's only four years since the end of the Coalition and the man who trebled tuition fees is still leader of the Lib Dems but the reality is that that issue is long gone as a driving force - the 18-year old students starting at university this September were at primary school when the Lib Dems ratted on their election promise - and Brexit and Corbyn have driven revolutions in voting behaviour, not least in that the gap between the Lib Dems and Tories is massively wider now than in 2010 and the prospect of a repeat of the Rose Garden love-in is vanishingly remote and, hence, not really credible as a scare tactic.
>
> If Labour Remainers want to abandon Corbyn in the Euro elections for an unequivocal party of Remain, then they have 3 choices: Lib Dems, Greens or CHUK.
>
> Of those three, why on earth in a PR based election should they choose the party which was complicit in ushering in a a period of Conservative austerity, sustained that programme for a full 5 year parliament and is still led by a former Secretary of State from that Government?
>
> Memories will take a long time to fade. As time passes, the number of students suffering under the punitive tuition fees regime originally brought in by Cable is only growing, as is the number of former students now paying those fees back in real deductions from their take home pay and receiving annual statements reminding them that those huge debts will be there to repay for pretty well the rest of their working lives.
The local elections this month (and, for that matter, opinion polls in general) suggest that the public is already moving on. How many of the public even know that Cable was in the government from 2010-15? To be fair, he generally did his best at the time to give the impression he was in opposition. And Cable's tenure in the Lib Dem leader's office isn't going to last long, moving them even further from the pre-2015 era.
btw it has just struck me that the other connotation of dressed up simians is Michael Jackson and Bubbles. Not sure what to make of that.
> > @Theuniondivvie said:
>
> > > @Scott_P said:
>
> > > https://twitter.com/heidiallen75/status/1126458587398770689
>
>
>
> >
>
> > @ForChange_Now, for now.
>
>
>
> Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
>
> The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so
>
> The market also had Neil Hamilton 2nd in Newport West.
Exactly. Backing Labour is probably now a value bet.
Does "Blockquote Saviour" count for anything?
>
> White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well?
Just on a technical point, I do see similarities between the Baker and Hodgson use of the M word.
Danny meant circus monkey, Roy meant space monkey.
Both relate to a specific and non-racist thing.
Big context difference though. Half-time team talk in the dressing room vs Public tweet with accompanying visual of said monkey.
No leavers will
Neither will any hardcore remainers
Plenty will be disgusted with the behaviour of the ex Labour MP
Labour only won in 2017 when they promised to back Brexit and UKIP didn’t stand
I think you’ll find the term “colourblind” is now racist too.
Sad thing is I’m not even joking.
> https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1126454588285116416?s=20
The party of Anna Soubry, defender of austerity.
The party that won't vote against the Tories in a vote of no confidence.
Yes, Chuka / Chukkers, Labour voters will be more than happy to lend you their votes.
No one seems to know what the hell this party is actually called (including its leaders) ?
> Is it Change UK, For_Change UK or ForChange_ Now UK?
>
> No one seems to know what the hell this party is actually called (including its leaders) ?
For now, Change UK. Dave.
> > @matt said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> >
> > > https://twitter.com/bbcr4today/status/1126402756993081346
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Daft old bat.
> >
> > It is so offensive to those who really lived in an unfree country and to those who fought to free them. Britain is a free country. The EU is not some totalitarian dictator.
> >
> > It’s not just hyperbole; it really is disgusting to make outrageously untrue statements like that. There are many parts of Europe which really knew what it is like to be unfree. Britain, thank God, was not and is not one of those countries. Politicians here ought to remember that.
> >
> > Brexiteers lie compulsively. Because they can. Because the media doesn’t pull them up on it, doesn’t have the ability to forensically question. Because their core vote is the ignorant and reactionary.
>
> This site has become a good place for Remainers to talk crap to each other.
lol
they'd never survive in the Black Country
> I was told off once for asking for a black coffee in a non-chain coffee shop (I was told I should have said "without milk"). So a pattern is definitely emerging.
>
> Logically shouldn't the choice really be coffee or coffee with milk? You don't normally specify things by what they don't contain. "Large cod and chips please, with no beetroot."
In less trendy establishments, 'a coffee' might well come with milk already in it as standard.
> Massive success story, Rhodesia.
I think the point is that it has survived, albeit with a name change. Which is undeniably true. I've seen it on the news many times.
> Having looked up Danny Bakers tweet, it really is astonishing, as is the number of folk unable to see what is racist about it!
>
> There are genuinely colourblind people out there Foxy and I believe Danny Baker is one of them. Huge fucking idiot I accept, but not racist.
>
> His tweet however can be seen as a clarion call to racists who would know exactly how to interpret it. Which is why he was sacked. But the tweet itself was not racist. It "just" emboldened racism.
>
> The analogy with Corbyn is almost too perfect. (Only analogy as I do believe Corbyn is actually racist but it also works if you believe he is not.)
>
> White men just can’t compare mixed race people to monkeys, even if they have no history of racism. (Roy Hodgsons analogy was different in my opinion) I can’t believe Danny Baker was so stupid to do it, did he really think it would go down well?
>
> As I said I believe he is genuinely colourblind.
>
> This is a disgusting post and you should be banned.
>
> I think you’ll find the term “colourblind” is now racist too.
>
> Sad thing is I’m not even joking.
While I think people are frequently looking for offence (and finding it where it is deserved...and where it isn't) "colourblindness" is an interesting case.
It is absolutely coming from a position of privilege - you can't be "colourblind" if you are on the discriminated-against side of that equation. So "colourblind" isn't seen as a sensitive position, which should be something more like "awareness but fairness".
And in this case, he wasn't aware, so made a massive blunder. For which he should be called to account and apologize. Which he did. But he probably shouldn't be sacked for it, unless there are a string of other examples.
The Corbyn "I didn't know about the mural" thing is a similar example. In his case, there are a string of other issues, which means it was his responsibility to be aware. And that's why I am less forgiving of him.
> Have any PBers had their postal vote ballot papers delivered?
I ditched that idea after my council at the time screwed it up for the Police Commissioner elections. Switched back to normal as ballot never arrived but I was marked as 'continually receiving postal ballots' even though I'm sure I never ticked that box
> > @glw said:
> > I was told off once for asking for a black coffee in a non-chain coffee shop (I was told I should have said "without milk"). So a pattern is definitely emerging.
> >
> > Logically shouldn't the choice really be coffee or coffee with milk? You don't normally specify things by what they don't contain. "Large cod and chips please, with no beetroot."
>
> In less trendy establishments, 'a coffee' might well come with milk already in it as standard.
I was back in Stoke a few weeks ago, where I ventured into shall we say a less trendy establishment.
To my surprise they had a proper espresso machine, so I ordered a double espresso, the output of which Maureen dumped into a large builder tea style mug, only for Margaret to tell Maureen they had special cups in the back for those special coffees. After several minutes, Maureen reappeared wiping the dust off an espresso cup.
Times are changing....
> > @GIN1138 said:
> > Is it Change UK, For_Change UK or ForChange_ Now UK?
> >
> > No one seems to know what the hell this party is actually called (including its leaders) ?
>
> For now, Change UK. Dave.
Thanks David.
> Have any PBers had their postal vote ballot papers delivered?
That nice Mr Farage is saving you all the bother and filling them in for you...
> Is it Change UK, For_Change UK or ForChange_ Now?
>
> No one seems to know what the hell this party is actually called (including its leaders) ?
Maybe we have uncovered the change?
> > @dr_spyn said:
> > Have any PBers had their postal vote ballot papers delivered?
>
> That nice Mr Farage is saving you all the bother and filling them in for you...
He won't be filling it in for me. I have my own pen.
> The local elections this month (and, for that matter, opinion polls in general) suggest that the public is already moving on. How many of the public even know that Cable was in the government from 2010-15? To be fair, he generally did his best at the time to give the impression he was in opposition. And Cable's tenure in the Lib Dem leader's office isn't going to last long, moving them even further from the pre-2015 era.
Yeah.. I think the LDs are out of the sin bin now, given the goldfish-like concentration span of the average voter. Ironically, I think the formation of Change UK has probably speeded that up (raise the idea of an alternative to the big two > turn out to be a bit less exciting than everyone thought > people grab on to the next passing alternative).
I'm not aligned to the LibDems by any stretch, but I think they got a raw deal for their time in government. They were only ever going to get a limited amount of airtime for their policies as the minor party (especially where those clashed with Tory ones), but in hindsight helped deliver remarkably stable government and probably put a bit of a brake on austerity.. maybe not much compared to Cameron's own instincts, but by helping to keep the right of the Tory party from cutting harder and faster. Considering the shitshow we've had since with a subsequent minority administration, I think they deserve much credit from the uncommitted voter.
> > @brokenwheel said:
>
> > > @Theuniondivvie said:
>
> >
>
> > > > @Scott_P said:
>
> >
>
> > > > https://twitter.com/heidiallen75/status/1126458587398770689
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > @ForChange_Now, for now.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Widdecombe is off her trolley if she thinks appealing for more sacrifice (for what end?) is going to have much appeal after ten years of austerity.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Meanwhile, Farage’s choice of candidate for Peterborough surely makes Labour favourites again? Whilst a millionaire former Tory donor might appeal to Tory leavers, it gives Labour an easy line to put its own leavers off voting for him.
>
> >
>
> > The market went from 11/8 to 4/5 so doesn’t seem so
>
> >
>
> > The market also had Neil Hamilton 2nd in Newport West.
>
>
>
> Exactly. Backing Labour is probably now a value bet.
>
> What is the motivation for voting Labour in Peterborough?
>
> No leavers will
> Neither will any hardcore remainers
> Plenty will be disgusted with the behaviour of the ex Labour MP
> Labour only won in 2017 when they promised to back Brexit and UKIP didn’t stand
The idea that 'no leaver' will vote Labour in Peterborough is just daft. You are assuming that every voter who supported Leave is as obsessed with the issue as you appear to be. It would not even be true of some voters who were firm Leave voters in 2016 - simply because other issues will override it. That is even more likely to be the case for those who remained genuinely undecided until the last moment before coming off the fence on a 51- 49 basis. I voted Leave - but will vote Labour on 23rd May. I will spoil my ballot paper at the General Election - but for reasons totally unrelated to Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/aug/23/foreignpolicy.zimbabwe
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/after-40-years-of-being-lied-to-its-time-to-leave-the-eu/