Mr. Roger, that post (the authoritarian mention) reminds me of the news last night, and a weird bit of censorship.
It was the Danny Baker story. They showed the tweet text and top half of the picture (chimp not shown) and refused to show the rest... which just seemed a bit weird and precious.
Bleeping out Baker's front door expletives is one thing, but it's (as a picture) just a chimpanzee. And a clothed one at that.
If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
DELIVER BREXIT!
He's already declared that May's Fucking Shit Deal isn't Brexit so passing the WDA would not help in that regard.
The merit of her Deal were nothing to do with Farage. Had the commons (an ill suited name) passed it, he would be talking to himself if he were to criticise it. Instead he can now fight elections that shouldn’t be taking place on a betrayal narrative.
> @isam said: > Beautiful to see the contortions that make it possible for Farage to be so hapless that the 2016 win wasn’t his victory, yet so powerful that he’s going to take over the country and lead it to fascism
All the Leavers who thought Nige spoke a lot of sense up to 2016, disowned him after the referendum because his general prickishness tainted their beautiful dream and are now back to 'speaks a lot of sense' must feel a bit foolish, right enough.
> Beautiful to see the contortions that make it possible for Farage to be so hapless that the 2016 win wasn’t his victory, yet so powerful that he’s going to take over the country and lead it to fascism
All the Leavers who thought Nige spoke a lot of sense up to 2016, disowned him after the referendum because his general prickishness tainted their beautiful dream and are now back to 'speaks a lot of sense' must feel a bit foolish, right enough.
> @isam said: > > @GarethoftheVale2 said: > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it. > > > > > > DELIVER BREXIT! > > > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless. > > > > Appeasement doesn't work. > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience
I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible.
> @isam said: > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it. > > > > DELIVER BREXIT! > > He's already declared that May's Fucking Shit Deal isn't Brexit so passing the WDA would not help in that regard. > > The merit of her Deal were nothing to do with Farage. Had the commons (an ill suited name) passed it, he would be talking to himself if he were to criticise it. Instead he can now fight elections that shouldn’t be taking place on a betrayal narrative.
> @Dura_Ace said: > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it. > > > > DELIVER BREXIT! > > He's already declared that May's Fucking Shit Deal isn't Brexit so passing the WDA would not help in that regard.
Though with Year Zero Brexit, new arrangements would need hurriedly arranging, with more than a slight resemblance to May's Fucking Shit Deal.
As if that would heal any of the divisions in the country or address any of the concerns that led people to vote for Brexit.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @isam said: > > > @GarethoftheVale2 said: > > > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it. > > > > > > > > > > DELIVER BREXIT! > > > > > > > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless. > > > > > > > > Appeasement doesn't work. > > > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience > > I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible.
That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU.
You make two good points. I'm also getting concerned about the authoritarianism which seems to want to suffocate unorthodox ideas and satire. Whatever happened to 'We Are Charlie'? Having said that at the heart of it is a nasty authoritarianism of which Faragism and Brexit is at best a symptom
I wouldn't put Farage down as an authoritarian. What would I put him down as? A seasoned and successful political campaigner who understands that people have buttons in places where they previously didn't think they had places, perhaps.
> @SandyRentool said: > Top Tip: > > To send a message to parties obsessed about Brexit, vote for another party obsessed about Brexit. > > Er, no - hang on a minute - that doesn't work... > > Actual Top Tip: Vote in the Euros for a party not obsessed about Brexit, but for one obsessed about something more important.
> @IanB2 said: > > @HYUFD said: > > https://twitter.com/MarcusFysh/status/1126743093066194945?s=20 > > Fraser Nelson is an idiot who will write and print anything in support of a hard Brexit. He was the one that published that 30 things wrong with May's deal article, when it turned out a good number of the 'facts' in it had simply been made up.
> @TOPPING said: > You make two good points. I'm also getting concerned about the authoritarianism which seems to want to suffocate unorthodox ideas and satire. Whatever happened to 'We Are Charlie'? Having said that at the heart of it is a nasty authoritarianism of which Faragism and Brexit is at best a symptom > > I wouldn't put Farage down as an authoritarian. What would I put him down as? A seasoned and successful political campaigner who understands that people have buttons in places where they previously didn't think they had places, perhaps.
He is an effective communicator, but utterly malign in how he uses his talent. Just imagine if he were able to say...
"Brexit is complicated. We voted to leave, but it's not easy to figure out the state we're moving too. We need to give people trust and space to work through the detail, so we get the best possible outcome. We also need to bring on board those who voted against it, by offering them something in this new world."
> @IanB2 said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > @isam said: > > > > @GarethoftheVale2 said: > > > > > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELIVER BREXIT! > > > > > > > > > > > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > Appeasement doesn't work. > > > > > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience > > > > I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible. > > That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU.
Ok, anyone who didnt vote for either Mays deal or an alternative plausible non referendum brexit during the indicative votes. (48 Tory MPs did vote for one of Customs Union or CM2 so some did play ball).
He is an effective communicator, but utterly malign in how he uses his talent. Just imagine if he were able to say...
"Brexit is complicated. We voted to leave, but it's not easy to figure out the state we're moving too. We need to give people trust and space to work through the detail, so we get the best possible outcome. We also need to bring on board those who voted against it, by offering them something in this new world."
Instead we get.
"BETRAYAL!" and snake oil simple solutions
I don't think it's that malign. I think it is misguided, idiotic and clueless but not malign. He is fighting his political point much as I disagree with it.
And as for "imagine if he were able to say"... well no other politician has been able to say that and he has every right not to say it.
As @isam keeps pointing out - if the WA (when did it become the WDA!!??) had passed and we had, you know, left the EU, he would be pissing in the wind right now.
> @another_richard said: > > @IanB2 said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > https://twitter.com/MarcusFysh/status/1126743093066194945?s=20 > > > > Fraser Nelson is an idiot who will write and print anything in support of a hard Brexit. He was the one that published that 30 things wrong with May's deal article, when it turned out a good number of the 'facts' in it had simply been made up. > > May's deal IS hard Brexit. > > The terminology has changed since 2016.
The rhetoric : May's deal = hard brexit The likely reality : May's deal gets caught in an indefinite backstop which is not much economically different to remaining in.
Economically it is BINO - but the social aspects are hated by both the left and the right as it doesn't fit either worldview.
He is an effective communicator, but utterly malign in how he uses his talent. Just imagine if he were able to say...
"Brexit is complicated. We voted to leave, but it's not easy to figure out the state we're moving too. We need to give people trust and space to work through the detail, so we get the best possible outcome. We also need to bring on board those who voted against it, by offering them something in this new world."
Instead we get.
"BETRAYAL!" and snake oil simple solutions
I don't think it's that malign. I think it is misguided, idiotic and clueless but not malign. He is fighting his political point much as I disagree with it.
And as for "imagine if he were able to say"... well no other politician has been able to say that and he has every right not to say it.
As @isam keeps pointing out - if the WA (when did it become the WDA!!??) had passed and we had, you know, left the EU, he would be pissing in the wind right now.
Agree. Farage is a campaigner and not in power. He should have been put in a position where his talents could have been used towards sensible Brexit ends, but he wasn't. If the Tories had elected a Brexiteer as leader, who then had been honest about the complexities and time scale Farage would be a footnote by now. As it is he has every right to campaign. Compared with Labour he is a model of clarity, moderation and consistency.
Economically it is BINO - but the social aspects are hated by both the left and the right as it doesn't fit either worldview.
It's objectively terrible; combining both the disbenefits of leaving and remaining. The only possible reason for being in favour of it is internal tory party management.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. Roger, that post (the authoritarian mention) reminds me of the news last night, and a weird bit of censorship. > > It was the Danny Baker story. They showed the tweet text and top half of the picture (chimp not shown) and refused to show the rest... which just seemed a bit weird and precious. > > Bleeping out Baker's front door expletives is one thing, but it's (as a picture) just a chimpanzee. And a clothed one at that.
I wasn't at all happy about the BBC's treatment of Danny Baker. On the liberal left that seems to have put me in a line of one but so be it. I can't stand Danny Baker but I don't believe for a second he intended a racist slur so at worst it was an irreverent joke. If the day has arrived that the BBC fires people for bad taste humour it's the day it should pack its bags.
Mr. Roger, ah, it took me a little while to get the Je suis Charlie reference, given the English.
That's a legitimate perspective. But given the BBC (I believe) and Sky (I remember distinctly) wimped out of showing the Charlie Hebdo covers I'm not surprised Baker ended up sacked. I was surprised that they censored a picture of a chimpanzee who was fully dressed.
> > Who is the 'Ghost of Tom Paine' and what on earth is that deluded comparison? Why do I have to occupy a planet with some people who have zero grasp of history. My wife works at the Imperial War Museum and would be appalled that someone would even consider comparing Farage to the Nazis. Deranged doesn't do justice to some of these twitter posters.
The "Ghost of Tom Paine" did not mention Nazis you did.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @IanB2 said: > > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > @isam said: > > > > > @GarethoftheVale2 said: > > > > > > > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELIVER BREXIT! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Appeasement doesn't work. > > > > > > > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience > > > > > > I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible. > > > > That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU. > > Ok, anyone who didnt vote for either Mays deal or an alternative plausible non referendum brexit during the indicative votes. (48 Tory MPs did vote for one of Customs Union or CM2 so some did play ball).
After May's deal had been massively rejected, refusing to countenance any realistic alternative is hardly helpful. CU or CM2 (which would be what any deal with Labour would require anyway) only needed a few more Tory votes to carry the indicative vote exercise.
> @Roger said: > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > Mr. Roger, that post (the authoritarian mention) reminds me of the news last night, and a weird bit of censorship. > > > > It was the Danny Baker story. They showed the tweet text and top half of the picture (chimp not shown) and refused to show the rest... which just seemed a bit weird and precious. > > > > Bleeping out Baker's front door expletives is one thing, but it's (as a picture) just a chimpanzee. And a clothed one at that. > > I wasn't at all happy about the BBC's treatment of Danny Baker. On the liberal left that seems to have put me in a line of one but so be it. I can't stand Danny Baker but I don't believe for a second he intended a racist slur so at worst it was an irreverent joke. If the day has arrived that the BBC fires people for bad taste humour it's the day it should pack its bags. > > WE ARE CHARLIE!
I listen to and like Danny Baker and find it equally implausible that he tweeted it without being aware how it would be perceived or that he is a racist and knew how it would be perceived but tweeted it anyway. Neither makes any sense so I don't understand what happened.
Might have given him the benefit of the doubt if his apology had been better but it sounded more like a plea for sympathy. Sacking him was the right choice at a publicly funded organisation.
Guy Verhofstadt - crazy name! crazy guy! - in both appearance and mannerisms is uncannily reminiscent of Jurgen Klopp (except before the teeth transplant). It's very easy to imagine him managing Liverpool. Speaking of which, QT last night, I did not think that Farridge had quite his usual cut through. He was effective, as he always is, but I was expecting a bit more. I still on balance expect him to be sweeping to power at some point in the next 5 years at the head of a right wing populist movement, ushering in a period that all of sound mind and good character will find deeply deplorable, but I am rather less sure about this than I was yesterday.
It is possible that the much vaunted Farridge, having been underrated for so long, is now being overrated. This does happen, I've noticed. Something goes from one to the other with barely an intervening moment where the assessment is accurate. Not just in politics, but more generally. Abba, for example. For decades they were unfairly denigrated as shallow formulaic pop, then all of a sudden the big rethink a few years ago and pretty much overnight they became authentic and brilliant, musicians worthy of the utmost respect, better than Status Quo. It could well be that exactly this is happening now with Farridge. One must hope so.
> @IanB2 said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > @IanB2 said: > > > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > > @isam said: > > > > > > @GarethoftheVale2 said: > > > > > > > > > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELIVER BREXIT! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Appeasement doesn't work. > > > > > > > > > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience > > > > > > > > I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible. > > > > > > That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU. > > > > Ok, anyone who didnt vote for either Mays deal or an alternative plausible non referendum brexit during the indicative votes. (48 Tory MPs did vote for one of Customs Union or CM2 so some did play ball). > > After May's deal had been massively rejected, refusing to countenance any realistic alternative is hardly helpful. CU or CM2 (which would be what any deal with Labour would require anyway) only needed a few more Tory votes to carry the indicative vote exercise.
Indeed a few more votes was all that was needed, they probably existed in the cabinet if they had voted freely.
CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing.
THE SNP’s European election campaign has got off to a disastrous start after tens of thousands of personalised letters were sent to the wrong people.
The bungled mailshot was aimed at around 700,000 registered postal voters.
Senior party figures blamed SNP HQ, which is run by Nicola Sturgeon’s husband Peter Murrell, for a mistake in the data given to mailing company Critiqom.
The Scottish Tories urged the SNP to report itself to the UK’s information watchdog in case there had been a breach of personal information.
Guy Verhofstadt - crazy name! crazy guy! - in both appearance and mannerisms is uncannily reminiscent of Jurgen Klopp (except before the teeth transplant). .
Underestimate GV at one's peril. For three decades Belgian politics was littered with the figurative corpses of those who did so.
Don't you worry about the further damage to the UK's reputation when people lookk at the European parliament with Farage and his cronies? We might think they're just a lunatic fringe but Europeans will see them as typical. Our dissinegrating reputation on the world stage will take a nose dive
> @kinabalu said: > Guy Verhofstadt - crazy name! crazy guy! - in both appearance and mannerisms is uncannily reminiscent of Jurgen Klopp (except before the teeth transplant). It's very easy to imagine him managing Liverpool. Speaking of which, QT last night, I did not think that Farridge had quite his usual cut through. He was effective, as he always is, but I was expecting a bit more. I still on balance expect him to be sweeping to power at some point in the next 5 years at the head of a right wing populist movement, ushering in a period that all of sound mind and good character will find deeply deplorable, but I am rather less sure about this than I was yesterday. > > It is possible that the much vaunted Farridge, having been underrated for so long, is now being overrated. This does happen, I've noticed. Something goes from one to the other with barely an intervening moment where the assessment is accurate. Not just in politics, but more generally. Abba, for example. For decades they were unfairly denigrated as shallow formulaic pop, then all of a sudden the big rethink a few years ago and pretty much overnight they became authentic and brilliant, musicians worthy of the utmost respect, better than Status Quo. It could well be that exactly this is happening now with Farridge. One must hope so.
I like your phonetic correct pronunciation of Farage. Apparently this is how his name was pronounced when the so-called man of the people and scourge of the establishment went to Dulwich College old bean!
> Farage leads in the EU polls..... What kind of a country do we live in? Who'd have beleived that one day the far right would find themselves in this position? It's shocking yet all we obsess about is Corbyn's ignorance of the nuances of anti semitism.
>
> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns. We are entering a national nightmare and no one seems to be noticing.
UKIP won the 2014 European elections too so this isn't anything new really.
Edit to add: the long-term trend is of the UK becoming a more tolerant society.
Dave's Tories came third! First time the PM's party didn't come at least second in a EU election in the UK.
> @kinabalu said: > Guy Verhofstadt - crazy name! crazy guy! - in both appearance and mannerisms is uncannily reminiscent of Jurgen Klopp (except before the teeth transplant). It's very easy to imagine him managing Liverpool. Speaking of which, QT last night, I did not think that Farridge had quite his usual cut through. He was effective, as he always is, but I was expecting a bit more. I still on balance expect him to be sweeping to power at some point in the next 5 years at the head of a right wing populist movement, ushering in a period that all of sound mind and good character will find deeply deplorable, but I am rather less sure about this than I was yesterday. > > It is possible that the much vaunted Farridge, having been underrated for so long, is now being overrated. This does happen, I've noticed. Something goes from one to the other with barely an intervening moment where the assessment is accurate. Not just in politics, but more generally. Abba, for example. For decades they were unfairly denigrated as shallow formulaic pop, then all of a sudden the big rethink a few years ago and pretty much overnight they became authentic and brilliant, musicians worthy of the utmost respect, better than Status Quo. It could well be that exactly this is happening now with Farridge. One must hope so.
Um. Where to start?
Your comments about Guy Verhofstadt are unnecessarily Ad Hominem and borderline racist.
I don't like Farage but let's have the common decency to use his real name.
There is no chance at all that Farage will sweep to power. This isn't the US. We're not that right wing and there's a core of loyalty to other parties which won't disappear. Remember, Trump was the Republican candidate!!
Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco.
Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
Your comments about Guy Verhofstadt are unnecessarily Ad Hominem and borderline racist.
I don't like Farage but let's have the common decency to use his real name.
There is no chance at all that Farage will sweep to power. This isn't the US. We're not that right wing and there's a core of loyalty to other parties which won't disappear. Remember, Trump was the Republican candidate!!
Saying someone looks like Jurgen Klopp is borderline racist? Um, LOL.
Surely the very (and original) definition of trolling.
> I like your phonetic correct pronunciation of Farage. Apparently this is how his name was pronounced when the so-called man of the people and scourge of the establishment went to Dulwich College old bean!
Yes - Man of the People innit.
(Going with the Will Self pronunciation - garage). Makes a difference.
> @Mysticrose said: > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
> @Roger said: > > @isam said: > > Double Crossover? > > > > > > > > BRX: 29% (+1) > > > > LAB: 26% (-3) > > > > CON: 13% (-) > > > > LDM: 13% (+5) > > > > GRN: 6% (-) > > > > SNP: 5% (-1) > > > > UKP: 3% (+1) > > > > CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May > > > > Changes with 21–23 April > > > > Market going t’other way > > Don't you worry about the further damage to the UK's reputation when people lookk at the European parliament with Farage and his cronies? We might think they're just a lunatic fringe but Europeans will see them as typical. Our dissinegrating reputation on the world stage will take a nose dive
No, our delegation will fit in with the other delegations that will be elected this time around.
> @Roger said: > > @isam said: > > Double Crossover? > > > > > > > > BRX: 29% (+1) > > > > LAB: 26% (-3) > > > > CON: 13% (-) > > > > LDM: 13% (+5) > > > > GRN: 6% (-) > > > > SNP: 5% (-1) > > > > UKP: 3% (+1) > > > > CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May > > > > Changes with 21–23 April > > > > Market going t’other way > > Don't you worry about the further damage to the UK's reputation when people lookk at the European parliament with Farage and his cronies? We might think they're just a lunatic fringe but Europeans will see them as typical. Our dissinegrating reputation on the world stage will take a nose dive
I think our reputation took a nose dive in 2016, and has continued on that trajectory since. This is why leavers are nationalists, but not patriots. No real patriot wishes to humiliate his/her own country by putting tin pot fascists like Farage and his ilk into places where other folk might think, as you suggest, that such unpleasant egotists are representative of whom we are.
> I like your phonetic correct pronunciation of Farage. Apparently this is how his name was pronounced when the so-called man of the people and scourge of the establishment went to Dulwich College old bean!
Yes - Man of the People innit.
(Going with the Will Self pronunciation - garage). Makes a difference.
There was a young man named Farage Who fell to an electoral barrage He campaigned so hard But let down his guard And one day got locked in his garage
> CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing.
CUK is proving an almost entirely negative force. apart for some vapid generalities. I don't see how they hope to avoid being eclipsed by the LD surge unless they develop a USP very quickly. They are handicapped by their mixed membership - I can imagine the ex-Lab or ex-Con MPs developing a joint programme quite easily, but doing one together is awkward, as Soubry in particular is still a Tory on most issues who happens to disagree on Europe (and social issues), while the ex-Labour people really are not.
> @Jonathan said: > > @SandyRentool said: > > Actual Top Tip: Vote in the Euros for a party not obsessed about Brexit, but for one obsessed about something more important. > > More important than Brexit? What madness is this?
In the event that the Labour and Conservative Parties lose seats after voting for this horrible thing I trust they'll listen to the message the voters are sending and never make a mistake like that again.
> Um. Where to start? > > Your comments about Guy Verhofstadt are unnecessarily Ad Hominem and borderline racist. > > I don't like Farage but let's have the common decency to use his real name. > > There is no chance at all that Farage will sweep to power. This isn't the US. We're not that right wing and there's a core of loyalty to other parties which won't disappear. Remember, Trump was the Republican candidate!! >
The 'crazy name crazy guy' is an old Private Eye meme (or whatever the word for meme was before the internet age). No way racist! (Oh and on that, but not necessarily to re-open, interesting comparison between the Baker and the Sugar case. Sugar not sacked by the Beeb. Should have been IMO. Likening top level African footballers to beach vendors in a tweet for which he did not apologize. Why did the Beeb not sack him? Why?).
"Farridge" is correct. Like Forage.You don't forage for food, do you. You forridge for it. Especially if we crash out of the EU without a deal.
Nigel's chances of power? Significantly higher than nil. You're being a touch complacent IMO. He's only 10/1 to win the NEXT election. So making it at some point would be shorter.
As with Trump, we have to somehow both take him seriously AND laugh at him. Tricky thing to pull off, but that is what I am trying to do.
CHUK are rather malign, although they will go down in history as an example of how NOT to launch a new party. Almost everything that could be done wrong, has been. All they are now serving to achieve is suck a little oxygen from the LibDems.
I sometimes wonder whether we should focus more on personalities and not solely on policies. Are the CHUCKERS good people? Are they decent? Did they constantly or consistently vote against their parties and the manifestos on which they were elected? Did they act with honour? Did they liaise and co-operate with other existing like-minded parties? Were they at all ego-centric? In essence, to quote Bono:
> @Sean_F said: > > @148grss said: > > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco. > > > > > > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"! > > > > > > http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE > > > > I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria > > I don't think any modern British political party (outside of the fringe) meets those criteria.
One of the problems with these political labels is that regardless of the correct definitions many (most?) will understand them completely differently - so if "Farage is not comparable to Hitler then he cant be fascist" will be a common viewpoint and you lose the conversation if you suggest he is a fascist.
Yes he uses some tools from a fascist playbook but so do May and Corbyn, if to a lesser extent.
Take him on on the issues, come up with bolder solutions, listen and persuade and the "sensible" political class would make him irrelevant again. Rely on focus groups for policy, use slogans not arguments to criticise and you will find Farage is better at that than most.
By the way, ref the idea of leaving a bad taste in the mouth, I think there was quite a lot of respect for Douglas Carswell. Compare and contrast that with Mark Reckless.
I'm not sure many of the TIGGERS are that widely regarded as people of honour. Anna Soubry was pretty much loathed by other Tory MPs and that's not just because of her Remainer views (contrast Ken Clarke, Nick Boles and even Dominic Grieve). I don't know enough about Chuka Umuna but I don't think he was much loved inside Labour.
Does this matter? Well, I do think if you're attempting to set yourselves up, Martin Bell style, as a party of anti-establishment change, you'd best make sure your behaviour matches the message. An awful lot of what CHUK have done has left plenty to be desired, and that's being fairly polite. The anti-Lib Dem memo was dreadful.
> > Farage leads in the EU polls..... What kind of a country do we live in? Who'd have beleived that one day the far right would find themselves in this position? It's shocking yet all we obsess about is Corbyn's ignorance of the nuances of anti semitism.
>
> >
>
> > Talk about fiddling while Rome burns. We are entering a national nightmare and no one seems to be noticing.
>
> >
>
> > It's the Euros, Rog, no one cares. Even @DavidL's wife is voting for the Brexit Party and I don't fear a country full of people like her.
>
>
>
> Do you think they're all Millwall supporters or could there be a smattering of 'David's Wives' in there too?
> @OblitusSumMe said: > > @Mysticrose said: > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them. > > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all.
Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour.
Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
> @kinabalu said: > > @OblitusSumMe said: > > > @Mysticrose said: > > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them. > > > > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already. > > Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all. > > Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour. > > Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
Then people will add up Brexit, Labour, Tory and UKIP to see if it will beat Lib Dem, Green and Change
> @Sean_F said: > > @148grss said: > > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco. > > > > > > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"! > > > > > > http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE > > > > I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria > > I don't think any modern British political party (outside of the fringe) meets those criteria.
I mean, I definitely think Brexit / UKIP / ERG wing of the Tories fulfil lots.
Tradition, check. - English nationalism, wish for the good old days, glorifying the WW and Empire. Also anti feminist, anti LGBT etc. Rejecting modernism, check. - see above Disagreement is treason, check. - Literally a national newspaper called out the judiciary as treasonous, and other MPs Fear of difference, check. - do I need to explain Appeal to social frustration, double check. - first blamed the social ills caused by austerity on immigrants, now trying to use Brexit The obsession with plot, check. - Theresa is a secret Remainer, elites are stitching up Leaving, Globalism etc. Enemy is strong and weak, check. - When we leave the EU we will have all the cards, but also the EU has a stranglehold on us that is nigh impossible to escape Pacifism is treason, check. - Talk to any of these people about Trident and they become monsters who demand we use nukes even if they don't help anything Selective populism, check. - Yes to Brexit, yes to anti establishment talking points, yes to economic policies that would mean big payouts for the rich and the destruction of the social safety net for the poor (Farage still needs to be pressed on the NHS and an "insurance based system")
> @kinabalu said: > > @OblitusSumMe said: > > > @Mysticrose said: > > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them. > > > > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already. > > Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all. > > Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour. > > Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
Indeed - and LDs have always underperformed at EU elections relative to Local Elections.
> @NickPalmer said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing. > > CUK is proving an almost entirely negative force. apart for some vapid generalities. I don't see how they hope to avoid being eclipsed by the LD surge unless they develop a USP very quickly. They are handicapped by their mixed membership - I can imagine the ex-Lab or ex-Con MPs developing a joint programme quite easily, but doing one together is awkward, as Soubry in particular is still a Tory on most issues who happens to disagree on Europe (and social issues), while the ex-Labour people really are not.
I think CHUKs future, if it has one, is as a right of centre pro EU party with Ken Clarke type ideas. The LDs and Greens are further left, and if as likely the Tories choose a europhobe headbanger then there will be that niche market for Pro EU Conservatives of the Heathite tradition.
> Underestimate GV at one's peril. For three decades Belgian politics was littered with the figurative corpses of those who did so.
Based on what I've seen, he has a boundless, puppyish energy which combined with thick skin, a sunny 'life's a gas' outlook, and some brains makes for quite a formidable politician.
> @justin124 said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > @OblitusSumMe said: > > > > @Mysticrose said: > > > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them. > > > > > > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already. > > > > Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all. > > > > Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour. > > > > Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'. > > Indeed - and LDs have always underperformed at EU elections relative to Local Elections.
I think Labour have historically underperformed at Euro elections too, it is the Greens who poll over their usual vote. People may not want a Green UK government, but they want Green issues taken seriously in the EU. I know I do.
Indeed - and LDs have always underperformed at EU elections relative to Local Elections.
In 1984, the Alliance got 18.5% at the Euros. And 30 years ago, the Greens got 14.5% of the vote at the Euros, their highest ever in any UK-wide election!
> @kinabalu said: > > @OblitusSumMe said: > > > @Mysticrose said: > > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them. > > > > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already. > > Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all. > > Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour. > > Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
That is certainly the argument from Labour loyalists such as Owen Jones, but it may go the other way. If the Lib Dem bounce is not just sustained, but grows, then who knows how far they might rise?
Generally I'm in favour of voting honestly, for what you want, rather than on the basis of guessing how other people will vote.
So I will vote Green - for emergency action to reduce the harm from global warming and for being generally pro-EU. If you're primarily motivated by being a Remain supporter I don't see the sense in voting for Labour. Voting for Labour is for people in favour of a softer Brexit than May's Brexit. So what do you want most?
> > Farage leads in the EU polls..... What kind of a country do we live in? Who'd have beleived that one day the far right would find themselves in this position? It's shocking yet all we obsess about is Corbyn's ignorance of the nuances of anti semitism.
> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > Indeed - and LDs have always underperformed at EU elections relative to Local Elections. > > In 1984, the Alliance got 18.5% at the Euros. > And 30 years ago, the Greens got 14.5% of the vote at the Euros, their highest ever in any UK-wide election!
In 1984 the Alliance polled 21% at the Local Elections as measured by NEV.
> @148grss said: > > @Sean_F said: > > > @148grss said: > > > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco. > > > > > > > > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"! > > > > > > > > http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE > > > > > > I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria > > > > I don't think any modern British political party (outside of the fringe) meets those criteria. > > I mean, I definitely think Brexit / UKIP / ERG wing of the Tories fulfil lots. > > Tradition, check. - English nationalism, wish for the good old days, glorifying the WW and Empire. Also anti feminist, anti LGBT etc. > Rejecting modernism, check. - see above > Disagreement is treason, check. - Literally a national newspaper called out the judiciary as treasonous, and other MPs > Fear of difference, check. - do I need to explain > Appeal to social frustration, double check. - first blamed the social ills caused by austerity on immigrants, now trying to use Brexit > The obsession with plot, check. - Theresa is a secret Remainer, elites are stitching up Leaving, Globalism etc. > Enemy is strong and weak, check. - When we leave the EU we will have all the cards, but also the EU has a stranglehold on us that is nigh impossible to escape > Pacifism is treason, check. - Talk to any of these people about Trident and they become monsters who demand we use nukes even if they don't help anything > Selective populism, check. - Yes to Brexit, yes to anti establishment talking points, yes to economic policies that would mean big payouts for the rich and the destruction of the social safety net for the poor (Farage still needs to be pressed on the NHS and an "insurance based system")
Most of that is a stretch. Most Brexit supporters don't think that the Enlightenment ushered in an era of depravity, glorify militarism, obsess about plots, admire action for its own sake.
Most importantly of all, most fascist movements reject democracy and glorify the use of violence against opponents. That doesn't reflect the views of most Brexit supporters.
There are currently no direct scheduled flights between London and Baku in the week of the final.
If you want to fly to the game on the day then a lengthy wait in somewhere like Istanbul or Kiev would be needed.
The quickest journey by air on the day of the final takes six hours 55 minutes, with the majority lasting more than 10 hours.
The only way to fly direct to Baku for the game would be to leave London on the Saturday beforehand and return a week later, three days after the trophy has been lifted.
That's an eight-day trip for 90 minutes of football - and for a game which kicks of at 11pm local time (20:00 BST), so will not finish until around 1am!
The only way to get to Baku is going to be the way F1 do it - with a couple of dozen chartered 747s.
Can’t see many trying to travel there independently of the official tours from the clubs involved - as opposed to the other final in Madrid, where there’s plenty of planes, trains and automobiles to get you there.
> @Foxy said: > > @NickPalmer said: > > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > > CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing. > > > > CUK is proving an almost entirely negative force. apart for some vapid generalities. I don't see how they hope to avoid being eclipsed by the LD surge unless they develop a USP very quickly. They are handicapped by their mixed membership - I can imagine the ex-Lab or ex-Con MPs developing a joint programme quite easily, but doing one together is awkward, as Soubry in particular is still a Tory on most issues who happens to disagree on Europe (and social issues), while the ex-Labour people really are not. > > I think CHUKs future, if it has one, is as a right of centre pro EU party with Ken Clarke type ideas. The LDs and Greens are further left, and if as likely the Tories choose a europhobe headbanger then there will be that niche market for Pro EU Conservatives of the Heathite tradition.
In which case all voting against Ken Clarke's idea with no absentions might not be the best start.
> That is certainly the argument from Labour loyalists such as Owen Jones, but it may go the other way. If the Lib Dem bounce is not just sustained, but grows, then who knows how far they might rise? > > Generally I'm in favour of voting honestly, for what you want, rather than on the basis of guessing how other people will vote. > > So I will vote Green - for emergency action to reduce the harm from global warming and for being generally pro-EU. If you're primarily motivated by being a Remain supporter I don't see the sense in voting for Labour. Voting for Labour is for people in favour of a softer Brexit than May's Brexit. So what do you want most?
A Labour government. But re the EU I've moved from preferring a soft Brexit to rather wanting Revoke via Ref2, even though I hate the thought of Ref2.
So, Lab or LD for the Euros? Maybe just 'KISS', like you say - Labour.
> @TOPPING said: > Farage leads in the EU polls..... What kind of a country do we live in? Who'd have beleived that one day the far right would find themselves in this position? It's shocking yet all we obsess about is Corbyn's ignorance of the nuances of anti semitism. > > Talk about fiddling while Rome burns. We are entering a national nightmare and no one seems to be noticing. > > It's the Euros, Rog, no one cares. Even @DavidL's wife is voting for the Brexit Party and I don't fear a country full of people like her.
A country full of people like her would be a blessing indeed. As it is I, for some inexplicable reason, am the lucky one.
> > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco.
> >
> > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
Comments
It was the Danny Baker story. They showed the tweet text and top half of the picture (chimp not shown) and refused to show the rest... which just seemed a bit weird and precious.
Bleeping out Baker's front door expletives is one thing, but it's (as a picture) just a chimpanzee. And a clothed one at that.
> If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
>
> DELIVER BREXIT!
Only one way to stop crows poking around in your rubbish.
GIVE THEM FOOD!
> Beautiful to see the contortions that make it possible for Farage to be so hapless that the 2016 win wasn’t his victory, yet so powerful that he’s going to take over the country and lead it to fascism
All the Leavers who thought Nige spoke a lot of sense up to 2016, disowned him after the referendum because his general prickishness tainted their beautiful dream and are now back to 'speaks a lot of sense' must feel a bit foolish, right enough.
> > @GarethoftheVale2 said:
>
> > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
>
> >
>
> > DELIVER BREXIT!
>
>
>
> If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless.
>
>
>
> Appeasement doesn't work.
>
> If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience
I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible.
> If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
>
>
>
> DELIVER BREXIT!
>
> He's already declared that May's Fucking Shit Deal isn't Brexit so passing the WDA would not help in that regard.
>
> The merit of her Deal were nothing to do with Farage. Had the commons (an ill suited name) passed it, he would be talking to himself if he were to criticise it. Instead he can now fight elections that shouldn’t be taking place on a betrayal narrative.
And doesn't he just love it.
> If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
>
>
>
> DELIVER BREXIT!
>
> He's already declared that May's Fucking Shit Deal isn't Brexit so passing the WDA would not help in that regard.
Though with Year Zero Brexit, new arrangements would need hurriedly arranging, with more than a slight resemblance to May's Fucking Shit Deal.
As if that would heal any of the divisions in the country or address any of the concerns that led people to vote for Brexit.
> > @isam said:
> > > @GarethoftheVale2 said:
> >
> > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > DELIVER BREXIT!
> >
> >
> >
> > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless.
> >
> >
> >
> > Appeasement doesn't work.
> >
> > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience
>
> I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible.
That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU.
To send a message to parties obsessed about Brexit, vote for another party obsessed about Brexit.
Er, no - hang on a minute - that doesn't work...
Actual Top Tip: Vote in the Euros for a party not obsessed about Brexit, but for one obsessed about something more important.
> Top Tip:
>
> To send a message to parties obsessed about Brexit, vote for another party obsessed about Brexit.
>
> Er, no - hang on a minute - that doesn't work...
>
> Actual Top Tip: Vote in the Euros for a party not obsessed about Brexit, but for one obsessed about something more important.
More important than Brexit? What madness is this?
> > @HYUFD said:
> > https://twitter.com/MarcusFysh/status/1126743093066194945?s=20
>
> Fraser Nelson is an idiot who will write and print anything in support of a hard Brexit. He was the one that published that 30 things wrong with May's deal article, when it turned out a good number of the 'facts' in it had simply been made up.
May's deal IS hard Brexit.
The terminology has changed since 2016.
> You make two good points. I'm also getting concerned about the authoritarianism which seems to want to suffocate unorthodox ideas and satire. Whatever happened to 'We Are Charlie'? Having said that at the heart of it is a nasty authoritarianism of which Faragism and Brexit is at best a symptom
>
> I wouldn't put Farage down as an authoritarian. What would I put him down as? A seasoned and successful political campaigner who understands that people have buttons in places where they previously didn't think they had places, perhaps.
He is an effective communicator, but utterly malign in how he uses his talent. Just imagine if he were able to say...
"Brexit is complicated. We voted to leave, but it's not easy to figure out the state we're moving too. We need to give people trust and space to work through the detail, so we get the best possible outcome. We also need to bring on board those who voted against it, by offering them something in this new world."
Instead we get.
"BETRAYAL!" and snake oil simple solutions
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > @isam said:
> > > > @GarethoftheVale2 said:
> > >
> > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > DELIVER BREXIT!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Appeasement doesn't work.
> > >
> > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience
> >
> > I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible.
>
> That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU.
Ok, anyone who didnt vote for either Mays deal or an alternative plausible non referendum brexit during the indicative votes. (48 Tory MPs did vote for one of Customs Union or CM2 so some did play ball).
And as for "imagine if he were able to say"... well no other politician has been able to say that and he has every right not to say it.
As @isam keeps pointing out - if the WA (when did it become the WDA!!??) had passed and we had, you know, left the EU, he would be pissing in the wind right now.
> > @IanB2 said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > https://twitter.com/MarcusFysh/status/1126743093066194945?s=20
> >
> > Fraser Nelson is an idiot who will write and print anything in support of a hard Brexit. He was the one that published that 30 things wrong with May's deal article, when it turned out a good number of the 'facts' in it had simply been made up.
>
> May's deal IS hard Brexit.
>
> The terminology has changed since 2016.
The rhetoric : May's deal = hard brexit
The likely reality : May's deal gets caught in an indefinite backstop which is not much economically different to remaining in.
Economically it is BINO - but the social aspects are hated by both the left and the right as it doesn't fit either worldview.
https://twitter.com/romfordrecorder/status/1126775912467398656?s=21
> Mr. Roger, that post (the authoritarian mention) reminds me of the news last night, and a weird bit of censorship.
>
> It was the Danny Baker story. They showed the tweet text and top half of the picture (chimp not shown) and refused to show the rest... which just seemed a bit weird and precious.
>
> Bleeping out Baker's front door expletives is one thing, but it's (as a picture) just a chimpanzee. And a clothed one at that.
I wasn't at all happy about the BBC's treatment of Danny Baker. On the liberal left that seems to have put me in a line of one but so be it. I can't stand Danny Baker but I don't believe for a second he intended a racist slur so at worst it was an irreverent joke. If the day has arrived that the BBC fires people for bad taste humour it's the day it should pack its bags.
WE ARE CHARLIE!
BRX: 29% (+1)
LAB: 26% (-3)
CON: 13% (-)
LDM: 13% (+5)
GRN: 6% (-)
SNP: 5% (-1)
UKP: 3% (+1)
CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May
Changes with 21–23 April
That's a legitimate perspective. But given the BBC (I believe) and Sky (I remember distinctly) wimped out of showing the Charlie Hebdo covers I'm not surprised Baker ended up sacked. I was surprised that they censored a picture of a chimpanzee who was fully dressed.
>
> Who is the 'Ghost of Tom Paine' and what on earth is that deluded comparison? Why do I have to occupy a planet with some people who have zero grasp of history. My wife works at the Imperial War Museum and would be appalled that someone would even consider comparing Farage to the Nazis. Deranged doesn't do justice to some of these twitter posters.
The "Ghost of Tom Paine" did not mention Nazis you did.
> GDP up by 0.5% on the quarter, 1.8% y o y.
Despite Brexit? Or because of Brexit?
> > @IanB2 said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > @isam said:
> > > > > @GarethoftheVale2 said:
> > > >
> > > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > DELIVER BREXIT!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Appeasement doesn't work.
> > > >
> > > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience
> > >
> > > I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible.
> >
> > That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU.
>
> Ok, anyone who didnt vote for either Mays deal or an alternative plausible non referendum brexit during the indicative votes. (48 Tory MPs did vote for one of Customs Union or CM2 so some did play ball).
After May's deal had been massively rejected, refusing to countenance any realistic alternative is hardly helpful. CU or CM2 (which would be what any deal with Labour would require anyway) only needed a few more Tory votes to carry the indicative vote exercise.
> In the most Brexity, thick, racist, xenophobic part of London, the black deputy (to an Asian) Mayor celebrates Polish Heritage Day
>
> https://twitter.com/romfordrecorder/status/1126775912467398656
Yes, even there there are some with sound values.
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > Mr. Roger, that post (the authoritarian mention) reminds me of the news last night, and a weird bit of censorship.
> >
> > It was the Danny Baker story. They showed the tweet text and top half of the picture (chimp not shown) and refused to show the rest... which just seemed a bit weird and precious.
> >
> > Bleeping out Baker's front door expletives is one thing, but it's (as a picture) just a chimpanzee. And a clothed one at that.
>
> I wasn't at all happy about the BBC's treatment of Danny Baker. On the liberal left that seems to have put me in a line of one but so be it. I can't stand Danny Baker but I don't believe for a second he intended a racist slur so at worst it was an irreverent joke. If the day has arrived that the BBC fires people for bad taste humour it's the day it should pack its bags.
>
> WE ARE CHARLIE!
I listen to and like Danny Baker and find it equally implausible that he tweeted it without being aware how it would be perceived or that he is a racist and knew how it would be perceived but tweeted it anyway. Neither makes any sense so I don't understand what happened.
Might have given him the benefit of the doubt if his apology had been better but it sounded more like a plea for sympathy. Sacking him was the right choice at a publicly funded organisation.
It is possible that the much vaunted Farridge, having been underrated for so long, is now being overrated. This does happen, I've noticed. Something goes from one to the other with barely an intervening moment where the assessment is accurate. Not just in politics, but more generally. Abba, for example. For decades they were unfairly denigrated as shallow formulaic pop, then all of a sudden the big rethink a few years ago and pretty much overnight they became authentic and brilliant, musicians worthy of the utmost respect, better than Status Quo. It could well be that exactly this is happening now with Farridge. One must hope so.
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > @IanB2 said:
> > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > @isam said:
> > > > > > @GarethoftheVale2 said:
> > > > >
> > > > > > If people want to get rid of Farage, there is a very easy and effective way to do it.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > DELIVER BREXIT!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you deliver it successfully Farage will say it's a stitch-up that is not Brexit, and if you deliver a mess, Farage will say it's because you're useless.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Appeasement doesn't work.
> > > > >
> > > > > If they’d delivered a soft Brexit compromise, rather than vote against any form of leaving, Farage’s lines would have no audience
> > > >
> > > > I think it would have reduced his potential absolute max vote from 40% to somewhere below 20% so certainly significant. Whilst I would see the ERG as the main reason it didnt get delivered any MP who voted for Article 50 but couldnt support any of the indicative vote options without a referendum should also be seen as responsible.
> > >
> > > That will be almost every Tory MP, then, since almost all of them only voted for the Brady indicative option that wasn't actually achievable or on offer from the EU.
> >
> > Ok, anyone who didnt vote for either Mays deal or an alternative plausible non referendum brexit during the indicative votes. (48 Tory MPs did vote for one of Customs Union or CM2 so some did play ball).
>
> After May's deal had been massively rejected, refusing to countenance any realistic alternative is hardly helpful. CU or CM2 (which would be what any deal with Labour would require anyway) only needed a few more Tory votes to carry the indicative vote exercise.
Indeed a few more votes was all that was needed, they probably existed in the cabinet if they had voted freely.
CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing.
The bungled mailshot was aimed at around 700,000 registered postal voters.
Senior party figures blamed SNP HQ, which is run by Nicola Sturgeon’s husband Peter Murrell, for a mistake in the data given to mailing company Critiqom.
The Scottish Tories urged the SNP to report itself to the UK’s information watchdog in case there had been a breach of personal information.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17631520.snp-election-launch-hit-by-leaflet-fiasco
> Double Crossover?
>
>
>
> BRX: 29% (+1)
>
> LAB: 26% (-3)
>
> CON: 13% (-)
>
> LDM: 13% (+5)
>
> GRN: 6% (-)
>
> SNP: 5% (-1)
>
> UKP: 3% (+1)
>
> CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May
>
> Changes with 21–23 April
>
> Market going t’other way
Don't you worry about the further damage to the UK's reputation when people lookk at the European parliament with Farage and his cronies? We might think they're just a lunatic fringe but Europeans will see them as typical. Our dissinegrating reputation on the world stage will take a nose dive
> Guy Verhofstadt - crazy name! crazy guy! - in both appearance and mannerisms is uncannily reminiscent of Jurgen Klopp (except before the teeth transplant). It's very easy to imagine him managing Liverpool. Speaking of which, QT last night, I did not think that Farridge had quite his usual cut through. He was effective, as he always is, but I was expecting a bit more. I still on balance expect him to be sweeping to power at some point in the next 5 years at the head of a right wing populist movement, ushering in a period that all of sound mind and good character will find deeply deplorable, but I am rather less sure about this than I was yesterday.
>
> It is possible that the much vaunted Farridge, having been underrated for so long, is now being overrated. This does happen, I've noticed. Something goes from one to the other with barely an intervening moment where the assessment is accurate. Not just in politics, but more generally. Abba, for example. For decades they were unfairly denigrated as shallow formulaic pop, then all of a sudden the big rethink a few years ago and pretty much overnight they became authentic and brilliant, musicians worthy of the utmost respect, better than Status Quo. It could well be that exactly this is happening now with Farridge. One must hope so.
I like your phonetic correct pronunciation of Farage. Apparently this is how his name was pronounced when the so-called man of the people and scourge of the establishment went to Dulwich College old bean!
> Guy Verhofstadt - crazy name! crazy guy! - in both appearance and mannerisms is uncannily reminiscent of Jurgen Klopp (except before the teeth transplant). It's very easy to imagine him managing Liverpool. Speaking of which, QT last night, I did not think that Farridge had quite his usual cut through. He was effective, as he always is, but I was expecting a bit more. I still on balance expect him to be sweeping to power at some point in the next 5 years at the head of a right wing populist movement, ushering in a period that all of sound mind and good character will find deeply deplorable, but I am rather less sure about this than I was yesterday.
>
> It is possible that the much vaunted Farridge, having been underrated for so long, is now being overrated. This does happen, I've noticed. Something goes from one to the other with barely an intervening moment where the assessment is accurate. Not just in politics, but more generally. Abba, for example. For decades they were unfairly denigrated as shallow formulaic pop, then all of a sudden the big rethink a few years ago and pretty much overnight they became authentic and brilliant, musicians worthy of the utmost respect, better than Status Quo. It could well be that exactly this is happening now with Farridge. One must hope so.
Um. Where to start?
Your comments about Guy Verhofstadt are unnecessarily Ad Hominem and borderline racist.
I don't like Farage but let's have the common decency to use his real name.
There is no chance at all that Farage will sweep to power. This isn't the US. We're not that right wing and there's a core of loyalty to other parties which won't disappear. Remember, Trump was the Republican candidate!!
Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE
> Double Crossover?
>
> BRX: 29% (+1)
> LAB: 26% (-3)
> CON: 13% (-)
> LDM: 13% (+5)
> GRN: 6% (-)
> SNP: 5% (-1)
> UKP: 3% (+1)
> CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May
> Changes with 21–23 April
LibDems to beat Conservatives must be a great punt if there's a market?
I think CHUK are done for.
Surely the very (and original) definition of trolling.
> Saying someone looks like Jurgen Klopp is borderline racist? Um, LOL.
>
"crazy name! crazy guy! - in both appearance and mannerisms"
Having a go at someone because of their 'crazy' foreign-sounding surname ... come on, we can do better than that on here.
> I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
>
> Two Brexit supporting parties leading. Unfortunate.
That's the trouble though, isn't it? Labour aren't really 'Brexit supporting' and neither are they 'Remain supporting'
> I like your phonetic correct pronunciation of Farage. Apparently this is how his name was pronounced when the so-called man of the people and scourge of the establishment went to Dulwich College old bean!
Yes - Man of the People innit.
(Going with the Will Self pronunciation - garage). Makes a difference.
> I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
> > @isam said:
> > Double Crossover?
> >
> >
> >
> > BRX: 29% (+1)
> >
> > LAB: 26% (-3)
> >
> > CON: 13% (-)
> >
> > LDM: 13% (+5)
> >
> > GRN: 6% (-)
> >
> > SNP: 5% (-1)
> >
> > UKP: 3% (+1)
> >
> > CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May
> >
> > Changes with 21–23 April
> >
> > Market going t’other way
>
> Don't you worry about the further damage to the UK's reputation when people lookk at the European parliament with Farage and his cronies? We might think they're just a lunatic fringe but Europeans will see them as typical. Our dissinegrating reputation on the world stage will take a nose dive
No, our delegation will fit in with the other delegations that will be elected this time around.
> > @isam said:
> > Double Crossover?
> >
> >
> >
> > BRX: 29% (+1)
> >
> > LAB: 26% (-3)
> >
> > CON: 13% (-)
> >
> > LDM: 13% (+5)
> >
> > GRN: 6% (-)
> >
> > SNP: 5% (-1)
> >
> > UKP: 3% (+1)
> >
> > CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May
> >
> > Changes with 21–23 April
> >
> > Market going t’other way
>
> Don't you worry about the further damage to the UK's reputation when people lookk at the European parliament with Farage and his cronies? We might think they're just a lunatic fringe but Europeans will see them as typical. Our dissinegrating reputation on the world stage will take a nose dive
I think our reputation took a nose dive in 2016, and has continued on that trajectory since. This is why leavers are nationalists, but not patriots. No real patriot wishes to humiliate his/her own country by putting tin pot fascists like Farage and his ilk into places where other folk might think, as you suggest, that such unpleasant egotists are representative of whom we are.
Who fell to an electoral barrage
He campaigned so hard
But let down his guard
And one day got locked in his garage
> CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing.
CUK is proving an almost entirely negative force. apart for some vapid generalities. I don't see how they hope to avoid being eclipsed by the LD surge unless they develop a USP very quickly. They are handicapped by their mixed membership - I can imagine the ex-Lab or ex-Con MPs developing a joint programme quite easily, but doing one together is awkward, as Soubry in particular is still a Tory on most issues who happens to disagree on Europe (and social issues), while the ex-Labour people really are not.
https://twitter.com/ballotboxscot/status/1126788979561500674?s=21
> > @SandyRentool said:
> > Actual Top Tip: Vote in the Euros for a party not obsessed about Brexit, but for one obsessed about something more important.
>
> More important than Brexit? What madness is this?
The most consequential thing the last parliament did was passing the Copyright Directive.
https://saveyourinternet.eu/uk/
In the event that the Labour and Conservative Parties lose seats after voting for this horrible thing I trust they'll listen to the message the voters are sending and never make a mistake like that again.
> Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco.
>
> Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
>
> http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE
I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria
> Terrible for Labour.
>
> https://twitter.com/ballotboxscot/status/1126788979561500674?s=21
If you want a pro unionist party that isn't quite sure on Brexit, Labour are your man up in Scotland.
> Um. Where to start?
>
> Your comments about Guy Verhofstadt are unnecessarily Ad Hominem and borderline racist.
>
> I don't like Farage but let's have the common decency to use his real name.
>
> There is no chance at all that Farage will sweep to power. This isn't the US. We're not that right wing and there's a core of loyalty to other parties which won't disappear. Remember, Trump was the Republican candidate!!
>
The 'crazy name crazy guy' is an old Private Eye meme (or whatever the word for meme was before the internet age). No way racist! (Oh and on that, but not necessarily to re-open, interesting comparison between the Baker and the Sugar case. Sugar not sacked by the Beeb. Should have been IMO. Likening top level African footballers to beach vendors in a tweet for which he did not apologize. Why did the Beeb not sack him? Why?).
"Farridge" is correct. Like Forage.You don't forage for food, do you. You forridge for it. Especially if we crash out of the EU without a deal.
Nigel's chances of power? Significantly higher than nil. You're being a touch complacent IMO. He's only 10/1 to win the NEXT election. So making it at some point would be shorter.
As with Trump, we have to somehow both take him seriously AND laugh at him. Tricky thing to pull off, but that is what I am trying to do.
> > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco.
> >
> > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
> >
> > http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE
>
> I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria
I don't think any modern British political party (outside of the fringe) meets those criteria.
CHUK are rather malign, although they will go down in history as an example of how NOT to launch a new party. Almost everything that could be done wrong, has been. All they are now serving to achieve is suck a little oxygen from the LibDems.
I sometimes wonder whether we should focus more on personalities and not solely on policies. Are the CHUCKERS good people? Are they decent? Did they constantly or consistently vote against their parties and the manifestos on which they were elected? Did they act with honour? Did they liaise and co-operate with other existing like-minded parties? Were they at all ego-centric? In essence, to quote Bono:
'Did they leave a bad taste in the mouth?'
> Double Crossover?
>
> BRX: 29% (+1)
> LAB: 26% (-3)
> CON: 13% (-)
> LDM: 13% (+5)
> GRN: 6% (-)
> SNP: 5% (-1)
> UKP: 3% (+1)
> CHU: 3% (-4)@OpiniumResearch, 3–7 May
> Changes with 21–23 April
European Parliament Voting Intention:
BXP: 29% (+1)
LAB: 26% (-2)
CON: 14% (=)
LDM: 12% (+5)
NAT: 6% (+1)
GRN: 6% (=)
UKIP: 4% (+1)
CHUK: 2% (-5)
Via @OpiniumResearch , 3-7 May.
Changes w/ 21-23 Apr.
> > @148grss said:
> > > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco.
> > >
> > > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
> > >
> > > http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE
> >
> > I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria
>
> I don't think any modern British political party (outside of the fringe) meets those criteria.
One of the problems with these political labels is that regardless of the correct definitions many (most?) will understand them completely differently - so if "Farage is not comparable to Hitler then he cant be fascist" will be a common viewpoint and you lose the conversation if you suggest he is a fascist.
Yes he uses some tools from a fascist playbook but so do May and Corbyn, if to a lesser extent.
Take him on on the issues, come up with bolder solutions, listen and persuade and the "sensible" political class would make him irrelevant again. Rely on focus groups for policy, use slogans not arguments to criticise and you will find Farage is better at that than most.
I'm not sure many of the TIGGERS are that widely regarded as people of honour. Anna Soubry was pretty much loathed by other Tory MPs and that's not just because of her Remainer views (contrast Ken Clarke, Nick Boles and even Dominic Grieve). I don't know enough about Chuka Umuna but I don't think he was much loved inside Labour.
Does this matter? Well, I do think if you're attempting to set yourselves up, Martin Bell style, as a party of anti-establishment change, you'd best make sure your behaviour matches the message. An awful lot of what CHUK have done has left plenty to be desired, and that's being fairly polite. The anti-Lib Dem memo was dreadful.
> > @Mysticrose said:
> > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
>
> If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all.
Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour.
Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
> > @OblitusSumMe said:
> > > @Mysticrose said:
> > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
> >
> > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
>
> Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all.
>
> Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour.
>
> Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
Then people will add up Brexit, Labour, Tory and UKIP to see if it will beat Lib Dem, Green and Change
> > @148grss said:
> > > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco.
> > >
> > > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
> > >
> > > http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE
> >
> > I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria
>
> I don't think any modern British political party (outside of the fringe) meets those criteria.
I mean, I definitely think Brexit / UKIP / ERG wing of the Tories fulfil lots.
Tradition, check. - English nationalism, wish for the good old days, glorifying the WW and Empire. Also anti feminist, anti LGBT etc.
Rejecting modernism, check. - see above
Disagreement is treason, check. - Literally a national newspaper called out the judiciary as treasonous, and other MPs
Fear of difference, check. - do I need to explain
Appeal to social frustration, double check. - first blamed the social ills caused by austerity on immigrants, now trying to use Brexit
The obsession with plot, check. - Theresa is a secret Remainer, elites are stitching up Leaving, Globalism etc.
Enemy is strong and weak, check. - When we leave the EU we will have all the cards, but also the EU has a stranglehold on us that is nigh impossible to escape
Pacifism is treason, check. - Talk to any of these people about Trident and they become monsters who demand we use nukes even if they don't help anything
Selective populism, check. - Yes to Brexit, yes to anti establishment talking points, yes to economic policies that would mean big payouts for the rich and the destruction of the social safety net for the poor (Farage still needs to be pressed on the NHS and an "insurance based system")
> > @OblitusSumMe said:
> > > @Mysticrose said:
> > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
> >
> > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
>
> Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all.
>
> Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour.
>
> Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
Indeed - and LDs have always underperformed at EU elections relative to Local Elections.
> > @noneoftheabove said:
>
> > CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing.
>
> CUK is proving an almost entirely negative force. apart for some vapid generalities. I don't see how they hope to avoid being eclipsed by the LD surge unless they develop a USP very quickly. They are handicapped by their mixed membership - I can imagine the ex-Lab or ex-Con MPs developing a joint programme quite easily, but doing one together is awkward, as Soubry in particular is still a Tory on most issues who happens to disagree on Europe (and social issues), while the ex-Labour people really are not.
I think CHUKs future, if it has one, is as a right of centre pro EU party with Ken Clarke type ideas. The LDs and Greens are further left, and if as likely the Tories choose a europhobe headbanger then there will be that niche market for Pro EU Conservatives of the Heathite tradition.
> Underestimate GV at one's peril. For three decades Belgian politics was littered with the figurative corpses of those who did so.
Based on what I've seen, he has a boundless, puppyish energy which combined with thick skin, a sunny 'life's a gas' outlook, and some brains makes for quite a formidable politician.
Or indeed manager of Liverpool.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > > @OblitusSumMe said:
> > > > @Mysticrose said:
> > > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
> > >
> > > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
> >
> > Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all.
> >
> > Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour.
> >
> > Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
>
> Indeed - and LDs have always underperformed at EU elections relative to Local Elections.
I think Labour have historically underperformed at Euro elections too, it is the Greens who poll over their usual vote. People may not want a Green UK government, but they want Green issues taken seriously in the EU. I know I do.
And 30 years ago, the Greens got 14.5% of the vote at the Euros, their highest ever in any UK-wide election!
> > @OblitusSumMe said:
> > > @Mysticrose said:
> > > I've also a feeling that Labour will run the BP close and probably beat them.
> >
> > If the Lib Dem polling bounce from the locals is sustained they will surely start to attract more voters from Labour. That helps the Brexit Party win, though the electorate is so volatile at the moment that I'm wary of making predictions, even with postal votes being cast already.
>
> Interesting thought - so perhaps the idea of Labour remainers like me voting Lib Dem in the Euros (as I had just about decided to try and do) is NOT the right approach after all.
>
> Better to stick with the Reds, aim being to deny Farage and his BP the headline glory of topping the poll. Furthermore, all other keen remainers should vote Labour too. Forget about LD, Change, Green etc. Unite around Labour.
>
> Push the BP into a poor and distant 2nd place and brand them as 'losers'.
That is certainly the argument from Labour loyalists such as Owen Jones, but it may go the other way. If the Lib Dem bounce is not just sustained, but grows, then who knows how far they might rise?
Generally I'm in favour of voting honestly, for what you want, rather than on the basis of guessing how other people will vote.
So I will vote Green - for emergency action to reduce the harm from global warming and for being generally pro-EU. If you're primarily motivated by being a Remain supporter I don't see the sense in voting for Labour. Voting for Labour is for people in favour of a softer Brexit than May's Brexit. So what do you want most?
> Indeed - and LDs have always underperformed at EU elections relative to Local Elections.
>
> In 1984, the Alliance got 18.5% at the Euros.
> And 30 years ago, the Greens got 14.5% of the vote at the Euros, their highest ever in any UK-wide election!
In 1984 the Alliance polled 21% at the Local Elections as measured by NEV.
The Hone Office ?
In charge of knife sharpening ?
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @148grss said:
> > > > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > > > Excellent analysis of what fascism actually is by one of the greatest writers and philosophers of recent times, Umberto Eco.
> > > >
> > > > Mr Farridge and his Brexit Nationalist Party, Scottish Nationalists, UKIP, all score very highly on almost all counts. Ann Widdecombe and her stupid remarks about WW2, and others like her should take note. No doubt they will dismiss him as "just a foreigner"!
> > > >
> > > > http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html?fbclid=IwAR1i4--82rNveTGJcjYrTb_7R41swQqGqxXU2StsSzQs-csWnY6W_Y7HvmE
> > >
> > > I see no reason to think the SNP meet any of these criteria
> >
> > I don't think any modern British political party (outside of the fringe) meets those criteria.
>
> I mean, I definitely think Brexit / UKIP / ERG wing of the Tories fulfil lots.
>
> Tradition, check. - English nationalism, wish for the good old days, glorifying the WW and Empire. Also anti feminist, anti LGBT etc.
> Rejecting modernism, check. - see above
> Disagreement is treason, check. - Literally a national newspaper called out the judiciary as treasonous, and other MPs
> Fear of difference, check. - do I need to explain
> Appeal to social frustration, double check. - first blamed the social ills caused by austerity on immigrants, now trying to use Brexit
> The obsession with plot, check. - Theresa is a secret Remainer, elites are stitching up Leaving, Globalism etc.
> Enemy is strong and weak, check. - When we leave the EU we will have all the cards, but also the EU has a stranglehold on us that is nigh impossible to escape
> Pacifism is treason, check. - Talk to any of these people about Trident and they become monsters who demand we use nukes even if they don't help anything
> Selective populism, check. - Yes to Brexit, yes to anti establishment talking points, yes to economic policies that would mean big payouts for the rich and the destruction of the social safety net for the poor (Farage still needs to be pressed on the NHS and an "insurance based system")
Most of that is a stretch. Most Brexit supporters don't think that the Enlightenment ushered in an era of depravity, glorify militarism, obsess about plots, admire action for its own sake.
Most importantly of all, most fascist movements reject democracy and glorify the use of violence against opponents. That doesn't reflect the views of most Brexit supporters.
Can’t see many trying to travel there independently of the official tours from the clubs involved - as opposed to the other final in Madrid, where there’s plenty of planes, trains and automobiles to get you there.
> > @NickPalmer said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> >
> > > CUK voted against both options, unlike the Libdems not even a single abstention, thought that very disappointing and completely against the spirit of the "new way" of politics they claim to be proposing.
> >
> > CUK is proving an almost entirely negative force. apart for some vapid generalities. I don't see how they hope to avoid being eclipsed by the LD surge unless they develop a USP very quickly. They are handicapped by their mixed membership - I can imagine the ex-Lab or ex-Con MPs developing a joint programme quite easily, but doing one together is awkward, as Soubry in particular is still a Tory on most issues who happens to disagree on Europe (and social issues), while the ex-Labour people really are not.
>
> I think CHUKs future, if it has one, is as a right of centre pro EU party with Ken Clarke type ideas. The LDs and Greens are further left, and if as likely the Tories choose a europhobe headbanger then there will be that niche market for Pro EU Conservatives of the Heathite tradition.
In which case all voting against Ken Clarke's idea with no absentions might not be the best start.
> That is certainly the argument from Labour loyalists such as Owen Jones, but it may go the other way. If the Lib Dem bounce is not just sustained, but grows, then who knows how far they might rise?
>
> Generally I'm in favour of voting honestly, for what you want, rather than on the basis of guessing how other people will vote.
>
> So I will vote Green - for emergency action to reduce the harm from global warming and for being generally pro-EU. If you're primarily motivated by being a Remain supporter I don't see the sense in voting for Labour. Voting for Labour is for people in favour of a softer Brexit than May's Brexit. So what do you want most?
A Labour government. But re the EU I've moved from preferring a soft Brexit to rather wanting Revoke via Ref2, even though I hate the thought of Ref2.
So, Lab or LD for the Euros? Maybe just 'KISS', like you say - Labour.
SNP actually up 9.6%
> Farage leads in the EU polls..... What kind of a country do we live in? Who'd have beleived that one day the far right would find themselves in this position? It's shocking yet all we obsess about is Corbyn's ignorance of the nuances of anti semitism.
>
> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns. We are entering a national nightmare and no one seems to be noticing.
>
> It's the Euros, Rog, no one cares. Even @DavidL's wife is voting for the Brexit Party and I don't fear a country full of people like her.
A country full of people like her would be a blessing indeed. As it is I, for some inexplicable reason, am the lucky one.