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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    viewcode said:

    Now do the same graph but include size of labour majority.

    Actually, thinking about it, lose the geographical info entirely and just have a x-y scatter graph with size of labour vote on one axis Vs size of leave vote on the other axis. If the leave voting areas have a large labour vote then they can afford to tack to remain. If the leave voting areas have a small labour vote then they can't afford to do that.
    https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1128678715188289537
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,008
    > @ExiledInScotland said:
    > > @Alanbrooke said:
    > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > > > @Foxy said:
    > > > > FWIW
    > > > >
    > > > > https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1128671675548147712?s=19
    > > > >
    > > > > I think this means low interest and turnout.
    > > >
    > > > I think that maybe spin Dr Foxy
    > > >
    > > > However, what I do not understand is how Farage is getting wall to wall coverage in the media with little or no balance
    > >
    > > just imagine how bad it will be if he deploys a BUS !!!!
    >
    > He has a bus but there are no promises on the side (to be fair, I remember from reading articles that he was against the £350m figure but was overruled)

    There were two separate Leave campaigns, and the bus came from the one Farage wasn't associated with.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    The trouble with socialism is it takes up too many of your evenings:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1128343817344569344
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    > @TOPPING said:

    > I find myself in the position of hold my nose and vote since the so called "sensible" parties havent shown any ability to engage with large slices of the electorate.

    >

    > You are voting for TBP in the euros? Wow things have come to a pretty pass. What are you trying to achieve?

    >

    > As TMay continues to point out, we would have left by now if the loons hadn't scuppered it.



    Wow things have come to a pretty pass.



    Yes they have, the fact that people can be forced in to an uncomfortable choice says nothing positive about the traditional parties. This is simply the result of the they have nowhere else to go theory esposued by Blair and Cameron. I would be overjoyed if there was a sensible one nation right of centre party atm but there isnt. You can choose between conservatives with fingers in their ears singing lalalala or trying to kick the Tories back to their senses.



    Some choice.

    How are you and @MarqueeMark thinking about it?

    I’m torn between abstaining and voting TBP. Would be interested in your rationales for teaching different decisions
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670

    Flatmate and mother received Green Party leaflets this week. They're done as a letter from Caroline Lucas, who isn't the party leader. They don't mention the actual party leaders, Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. And we're in Sian Berry's ward. Berry is our local councillor. What was the point of moving the leadership away from Lucas if the party is going to act as if Lucas is still leader?

    Got one for the Ruth Davidson Unionist party today and Europe was not mentioned , just rabbited on about Nicola Sturgeon and Independence referendums, totally unbelievable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    > @rottenborough said:
    > The trouble with socialism is it takes up too many of your evenings:
    >
    > https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1128343817344569344

    It should be a comfort for her compared to the snakes she works with day in day out - while he is after her job and is measuring up the curtains for No.10, at least he has always been open about that, it being his job.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    No leaflets here in Wiltshire other than 1 from BP. The LDs used to inundate with materials right up to May 2017 when they unexpectedly did pooly. They poured all their efforts into a winnable seat for the GE, and now with the euros looks like they may have abandoned this area to Con and BP to fight over.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    > @Charles said:
    > > @TOPPING said:
    >
    > > I find myself in the position of hold my nose and vote since the so called "sensible" parties havent shown any ability to engage with large slices of the electorate.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > You are voting for TBP in the euros? Wow things have come to a pretty pass. What are you trying to achieve?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > As TMay continues to point out, we would have left by now if the loons hadn't scuppered it.
    >
    >
    >
    > Wow things have come to a pretty pass.
    >
    >
    >
    > Yes they have, the fact that people can be forced in to an uncomfortable choice says nothing positive about the traditional parties. This is simply the result of the they have nowhere else to go theory esposued by Blair and Cameron. I would be overjoyed if there was a sensible one nation right of centre party atm but there isnt. You can choose between conservatives with fingers in their ears singing lalalala or trying to kick the Tories back to their senses.
    >
    >
    >
    > Some choice.
    >
    > How are you and @MarqueeMark thinking about it?
    >
    > I’m torn between abstaining and voting TBP. Would be interested in your rationales for teaching different decisions

    I'm not voting. For the first time, I shall not put pencil to ballot paper.

    I'm part of that Tory voter strike that I keep being assured isn't happening....
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    > @rottenborough said:
    > The trouble with socialism is it takes up too many of your evenings:
    >
    > https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1128343817344569344

    It'd OK- Jezza will be getting time off in lieu.

    On a related note, as a new member of the party back in the day, I was puzzled to discover that Socialism has to work around school half-term holidays.

    Man the barricades! Oh, hang on - that's Whit Week.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?

    I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Makes as much sense as the alternative being they are serious
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1128698045619634176
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    > @rottenborough said:
    > Let's cut to the chase..
    >
    >
    >
    > https://twitter.com/i/status/1128627519522004992
    >
    >
    >
    > Not a single member, unless you count the company board.
    >
    > This is not a political party. It is a vehicle for a Farage cult.

    I was reading an article about a Dutch political party that had no members and they even have MPs in the Dutch parliament. The rationale was that with traditional member parties in the case of wrong doing the press always say"member does something wrong," Because they are members the rules will have a disciplinary process that must be followed. More press coverage. With no members, there is no disciplinary process so the party can just say they are only a supporter and donated 25 quid and then ignore them or say they are not welcome at end party event. End of story.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    https://twitter.com/AnneMilton/status/1128619938296619008

    Apart from the more obvious errors, "test how good you are at numbers"? Really?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    > @Roger said:
    > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    >
    > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?

    Depends on the region I should think. In most area it might be likely only 1 seat between the pair, so best to go LD? But in others CUK might be in with a shout with your vote but the LDs likely to be far to far behind to get a second?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    Roger said:

    I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?



    I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?

    CHUKers will be rarer than hens teeth in Scotland
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    > @rottenborough said:

    > Let's cut to the chase..

    >

    >

    >

    >



    >

    >

    >

    > Not a single member, unless you count the company board.

    >

    > This is not a political party. It is a vehicle for a Farage cult.



    I was reading an article about a Dutch political party that had no members and they even have MPs in the Dutch parliament. The rationale was that with traditional member parties in the case of wrong doing the press always say"member does something wrong," Because they are members the rules will have a disciplinary process that must be followed. More press coverage. With no members, there is no disciplinary process so the party can just say they are only a supporter and donated 25 quid and then ignore them or say they are not welcome at end party event. End of story.
    It also has the coincidental benefit that the leader gets control of a lot of money and no accountability to those who paid it. For a party supposedly campaigning about democracy, they don't seem very keen on it when it comes to their own affairs.
  • ah009ah009 Posts: 436
    > @Stereotomy said:
    > https://twitter.com/AnneMilton/status/1128619938296619008
    >
    > Apart from the more obvious errors, "test how good you are at numbers"? Really?

    But when's national men's numberacy day?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Flatmate and mother received Green Party leaflets this week. They're done as a letter from Caroline Lucas, who isn't the party leader. They don't mention the actual party leaders, Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. And we're in Sian Berry's ward. Berry is our local councillor. What was the point of moving the leadership away from Lucas if the party is going to act as if Lucas is still leader?

    Got one for the Ruth Davidson Unionist party today and Europe was not mentioned , just rabbited on about Nicola Sturgeon and Independence referendums, totally unbelievable.
    Why’s that unbelievable?

    Sounds very much true to form surely?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    > @Charles said:

    > > @TOPPING said:

    >

    > > I find myself in the position of hold my nose and vote since the so called "sensible" parties havent shown any ability to engage with large slices of the electorate.

    >

    > >

    >

    > > You are voting for TBP in the euros? Wow things have come to a pretty pass. What are you trying to achieve?

    >

    > >

    >

    > > As TMay continues to point out, we would have left by now if the loons hadn't scuppered it.

    >

    >

    >

    > Wow things have come to a pretty pass.

    >

    >

    >

    > Yes they have, the fact that people can be forced in to an uncomfortable choice says nothing positive about the traditional parties. This is simply the result of the they have nowhere else to go theory esposued by Blair and Cameron. I would be overjoyed if there was a sensible one nation right of centre party atm but there isnt. You can choose between conservatives with fingers in their ears singing lalalala or trying to kick the Tories back to their senses.

    >

    >

    >

    > Some choice.

    >

    > How are you and @MarqueeMark thinking about it?

    >

    > I’m torn between abstaining and voting TBP. Would be interested in your rationales for teaching different decisions



    I'm not voting. For the first time, I shall not put pencil to ballot paper.



    I'm part of that Tory voter strike that I keep being assured isn't happening....

    So why not Tory or TBP?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,156
    > @Charles said:
    > That being said you care very deeply about this topic - which is one of the reasons why I would tie to a medical definition - so there’s not much point in arguing about it

    I am happy to defer to medical expertise. My father was the medical advisor for the 1967 Abortion Act. If you want to defer to medicine, then nearly all doctors in the UK support the 1967 Act or want to see further liberalisation -- including, obviously, extending it to Northern Ireland. (Elements of the '67 Act were compromises to get it passed, like the requirement for sign off by two doctors. Again, I'd recommend the short documentary at https://www.kindtowomen.com/ )

    The people pushing concerns about viability are, by and large, religious conservatives.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758





    Apart from the more obvious errors, "test how good you are at numbers"? Really?
    Be nice

    She’s promoting numeracy not literacy

    👿
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Received a nice letter from local Tory association asking for input ahead of convention calling for TMay to be removed... I managed to give this input without swearing or using the words 'head bangers', 'purists', Private Francois etc as to who they might look to blame ahead of the PM for us not having left as planned.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    edited May 2019
    > @Charles said:
    >
    > She’s promoting numeracy not literacy
    >
    > 👿

    You're not meant to take her illiterally.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited May 2019
    > @AlastairMeeks said:
    -----------------------------
    It also has the coincidental benefit that the leader gets control of a lot of money and no accountability to those who paid it. For a party supposedly campaigning about democracy, they don't seem very keen on it when it comes to their own affairs.
    ----------------------------
    Democracy is one of those things that is only a good idea in small doses or in the right place. It's like a bit of hot curry powder is great in, well, a curry, but you wouldn't want 10 spoonfuls of it in your morning coffee.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    > @Charles said:
    > > @Charles said:
    >
    > > > @TOPPING said:
    >
    > >
    >
    > > > I find myself in the position of hold my nose and vote since the so called "sensible" parties havent shown any ability to engage with large slices of the electorate.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > > You are voting for TBP in the euros? Wow things have come to a pretty pass. What are you trying to achieve?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > > As TMay continues to point out, we would have left by now if the loons hadn't scuppered it.
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Wow things have come to a pretty pass.
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Yes they have, the fact that people can be forced in to an uncomfortable choice says nothing positive about the traditional parties. This is simply the result of the they have nowhere else to go theory esposued by Blair and Cameron. I would be overjoyed if there was a sensible one nation right of centre party atm but there isnt. You can choose between conservatives with fingers in their ears singing lalalala or trying to kick the Tories back to their senses.
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Some choice.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > How are you and @MarqueeMark thinking about it?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > I’m torn between abstaining and voting TBP. Would be interested in your rationales for teaching different decisions
    >
    >
    >
    > I'm not voting. For the first time, I shall not put pencil to ballot paper.
    >
    >
    >
    > I'm part of that Tory voter strike that I keep being assured isn't happening....
    >
    > So why not Tory or TBP?

    The Tories have done nothing to deserve my vote. After more than 40 years of being active for them, that is some point to reach.

    And I do not want Farage to be able to claim that a vote for the Brexit Party is in any way a personal vote for that loathsome toad.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    > @Charles said:

    > That being said you care very deeply about this topic - which is one of the reasons why I would tie to a medical definition - so there’s not much point in arguing about it



    I am happy to defer to medical expertise. My father was the medical advisor for the 1967 Abortion Act. If you want to defer to medicine, then nearly all doctors in the UK support the 1967 Act or want to see further liberalisation -- including, obviously, extending it to Northern Ireland. (Elements of the '67 Act were compromises to get it passed, like the requirement for sign off by two doctors. Again, I'd recommend the short documentary at https://www.kindtowomen.com/ )



    The people pushing concerns about viability are, by and large, religious conservatives.

    Not deferring to doctors or doctor’s unions thank you. I specifically suggested the HFEA because that had the possibility of being more clinical (forgive the pun) in its assessment.

    I’m asking a question about how you delineate conflicting rights (“right to life” vs “right to choose”). I’m not particularly fussed about the answer.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    > @Roger said:
    > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    >
    > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?

    Not just any CHUKer - he is their number one position candidate in Scotland....

    He's already CHUKed in the towel.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @MarqueeMark

    Good arguments
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Flatmate and mother received Green Party leaflets this week. They're done as a letter from Caroline Lucas, who isn't the party leader. They don't mention the actual party leaders, Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. And we're in Sian Berry's ward. Berry is our local councillor. What was the point of moving the leadership away from Lucas if the party is going to act as if Lucas is still leader?

    Got one for the Ruth Davidson Unionist party today and Europe was not mentioned , just rabbited on about Nicola Sturgeon and Independence referendums, totally unbelievable.
    Why’s that unbelievable?

    Sounds very much true to form surely?
    I know she is a one trick pony , but that is taking the biscuit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Flatmate and mother received Green Party leaflets this week. They're done as a letter from Caroline Lucas, who isn't the party leader. They don't mention the actual party leaders, Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. And we're in Sian Berry's ward. Berry is our local councillor. What was the point of moving the leadership away from Lucas if the party is going to act as if Lucas is still leader?

    Got one for the Ruth Davidson Unionist party today and Europe was not mentioned , just rabbited on about Nicola Sturgeon and Independence referendums, totally unbelievable.
    Why’s that unbelievable?

    Sounds very much true to form surely?
    I know she is a one trick pony , but that is taking the biscuit.
    One more trick than her colleagues south of the border I suppose, which is something.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670

    > @Roger said:

    > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?

    >

    > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?



    Not just any CHUKer - he is their number one position candidate in Scotland....



    He's already CHUKed in the towel.

    A totally unknown bog standard local councillor, they are really scraping the barrel.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    > @Roger said:
    > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    >
    > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?

    Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.

    The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.

    If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    edited May 2019

    > @Roger said:

    > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?

    >

    > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?



    Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.



    The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.



    If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.

    I could not go the sandals and turning vegan
    ps: non leather sandals at that
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Flatmate and mother received Green Party leaflets this week. They're done as a letter from Caroline Lucas, who isn't the party leader. They don't mention the actual party leaders, Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. And we're in Sian Berry's ward. Berry is our local councillor. What was the point of moving the leadership away from Lucas if the party is going to act as if Lucas is still leader?

    Got one for the Ruth Davidson Unionist party today and Europe was not mentioned , just rabbited on about Nicola Sturgeon and Independence referendums, totally unbelievable.
    Why’s that unbelievable?

    Sounds very much true to form surely?
    I know she is a one trick pony , but that is taking the biscuit.
    A reasonable criticism - but you can be a little one note yourself, malcolm...

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. kle4, in refuting the Athenian concept of democracy, the Spartan lawgiver Lycurgus asserted that those in favour of democracy should start with their own families.

    Anyway, I must be off.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    > @malcolmg said:
    > > @Roger said:
    >
    > > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?
    >
    >
    >
    > Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.
    >
    >
    >
    > The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.
    >
    >
    >
    > If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.
    >
    > I could not go the sandals and turning vegan
    > ps: non leather sandals at that

    Hemp sandals. Heaven forbid they should be plastic....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > > @Roger said:
    > > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    > >
    > > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?
    >
    > Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.
    >
    > The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.
    >
    > If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.

    The LDs have swerved a little bit towards populism with "Bollocks to Brexit" for my tastes.

    The opposite of Farage's over simple solutions and divisive rhetoric is not simple solutions and divisive rhetoric on the Remain side.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Flatmate and mother received Green Party leaflets this week. They're done as a letter from Caroline Lucas, who isn't the party leader. They don't mention the actual party leaders, Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. And we're in Sian Berry's ward. Berry is our local councillor. What was the point of moving the leadership away from Lucas if the party is going to act as if Lucas is still leader?

    Got one for the Ruth Davidson Unionist party today and Europe was not mentioned , just rabbited on about Nicola Sturgeon and Independence referendums, totally unbelievable.
    Why’s that unbelievable?

    Sounds very much true to form surely?
    I know she is a one trick pony , but that is taking the biscuit.
    A reasonable criticism - but you can be a little one note yourself, malcolm...

    Fair point , but I would expect a politician who says she is going to be the next FM to have a bit more on the policy front.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    > @Charles said:
    > FPT
    > It is curious that when extreme conservatives come to power often their very first act is to limit women's freedoms. See Iran, for instance. Why are conservative men so afraid of women being free?
    >
    > I think that’s an unfair use of the term “conservative” in the second sentence Fundamentalist would be better
    >
    > The answer is that their religious texts reflect the social landscape of when they were written (you only have to compare Romans to the Pentateuch to see the impact of time)
    >
    > Fundamentalists build their appeal on simplistic calls to go back to a past when everything was peachy. Subjugating women - based on 4,000 year old texts - is a highly visible demonstration of compliance.
    >
    > It also wins them credit from the many social and intellectual inadequates in their ranks
    >
    > (You could have summarised the above as “playing to their base”)

    I knew you'd bite! I was gently teasing you. Fundamentalist is a better term.

    It is still curious though. If Christian fundamentalists really paid attention to Jesus's teachings they would know that (a) one of his closest followers was Mary Magdalene, a prostitute, which hardly suggests a man concerned with social niceties; and (b) he told the men seeking to stone the adulteress that they should look to the beams in their own eyes before attacking a woman.

    Both seem quite contrary - to me anyway - to a view that women should be diminished and controlled and ignored.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    > @Cyclefree said:
    > > @Charles said:
    > > FPT
    > > It is curious that when extreme conservatives come to power often their very first act is to limit women's freedoms. See Iran, for instance. Why are conservative men so afraid of women being free?
    > >
    > > I think that’s an unfair use of the term “conservative” in the second sentence Fundamentalist would be better
    > >
    > > The answer is that their religious texts reflect the social landscape of when they were written (you only have to compare Romans to the Pentateuch to see the impact of time)
    > >
    > > Fundamentalists build their appeal on simplistic calls to go back to a past when everything was peachy. Subjugating women - based on 4,000 year old texts - is a highly visible demonstration of compliance.
    > >
    > > It also wins them credit from the many social and intellectual inadequates in their ranks
    > >
    > > (You could have summarised the above as “playing to their base”)
    >
    > I knew you'd bite! I was gently teasing you. Fundamentalist is a better term.
    >
    > It is still curious though. If Christian fundamentalists really paid attention to Jesus's teachings they would know that (a) one of his closest followers was Mary Magdalene, a prostitute, which hardly suggests a man concerned with social niceties; and (b) he told the men seeking to stone the adulteress that they should look to the beams in their own eyes before attacking a woman.
    >
    > Both seem quite contrary - to me anyway - to a view that women should be diminished and controlled and ignored.
    >
    >

    Maybe "right wing" would be a less controversial term
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > > @Roger said:
    > > > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    > > >
    > > > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?
    > >
    > > Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.
    > >
    > > The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.
    > >
    > > If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.
    >
    > The LDs have swerved a little bit towards populism with "Bollocks to Brexit" for my tastes.
    >
    > The opposite of Farage's over simple solutions and divisive rhetoric is not simple solutions and divisive rhetoric on the Remain side.
    >
    >

    Bollocks is hardly divisive rhetoric . Most people aren’t going to be annoyed at the terminology . It’s a funny term used to lightheartedly express dissatisfaction. The Lib Dems haven’t gone round calling those who disagree with them traitors which Leave have been peddling for months and is far more incendiary .
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Flatmate and mother received Green Party leaflets this week. They're done as a letter from Caroline Lucas, who isn't the party leader. They don't mention the actual party leaders, Sian Berry and Jonathan Bartley. And we're in Sian Berry's ward. Berry is our local councillor. What was the point of moving the leadership away from Lucas if the party is going to act as if Lucas is still leader?

    Got one for the Ruth Davidson Unionist party today and Europe was not mentioned , just rabbited on about Nicola Sturgeon and Independence referendums, totally unbelievable.
    Why’s that unbelievable?

    Sounds very much true to form surely?
    I know she is a one trick pony , but that is taking the biscuit.
    As ponies are wont to do...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    > @Charles said:

    > FPT

    > It is curious that when extreme conservatives come to power often their very first act is to limit women's freedoms. See Iran, for instance. Why are conservative men so afraid of women being free?

    >

    > I think that’s an unfair use of the term “conservative” in the second sentence Fundamentalist would be better

    >

    > The answer is that their religious texts reflect the social landscape of when they were written (you only have to compare Romans to the Pentateuch to see the impact of time)

    >

    > Fundamentalists build their appeal on simplistic calls to go back to a past when everything was peachy. Subjugating women - based on 4,000 year old texts - is a highly visible demonstration of compliance.

    >

    > It also wins them credit from the many social and intellectual inadequates in their ranks

    >

    > (You could have summarised the above as “playing to their base”)



    I knew you'd bite! I was gently teasing you. Fundamentalist is a better term.



    It is still curious though. If Christian fundamentalists really paid attention to Jesus's teachings they would know that (a) one of his closest followers was Mary Magdalene, a prostitute, which hardly suggests a man concerned with social niceties; and (b) he told the men seeking to stone the adulteress that they should look to the beams in their own eyes before attacking a woman.



    Both seem quite contrary - to me anyway - to a view that women should be diminished and controlled and ignored.

    Christian fundamentalists are daft. The whole point of the NT was that it was New Covenant - but they revert to parsing the OT
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Jonathan said:

    > > @Roger said:

    > > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?

    > >

    > > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?

    >

    > Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.

    >

    > The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.

    >

    > If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.



    The LDs have swerved a little bit towards populism with "Bollocks to Brexit" for my tastes.



    The opposite of Farage's over simple solutions and divisive rhetoric is not simple solutions and divisive rhetoric on the Remain side.

    No no, you see when it is simplistic solutions to a complex problem but in the direction you would like, it is totally different.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @nico67 said:

    > Bollocks is hardly divisive rhetoric . Most people aren’t going to be annoyed at the terminology . It’s a funny term used to lightheartedly express dissatisfaction. The Lib Dems haven’t gone round calling those who disagree with them traitors which Leave have been peddling for months and is far more incendiary .

    Yes. The Brexiteers have done much worse. But 'Bollocks' is not exactly constructive or helpful either. Someone, somewhere is going to have find a way through this at some point.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    Jonathan said:

    > > @Roger said:

    > > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?

    > >

    > > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?

    >

    > Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.

    >

    > The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.

    >

    > If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.



    The LDs have swerved a little bit towards populism with "Bollocks to Brexit" for my tastes.



    The opposite of Farage's over simple solutions and divisive rhetoric is not simple solutions and divisive rhetoric on the Remain side.

    Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @viewcode said:
    > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(

    There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    > @algarkirk said:
    > FPT
    > It is curious that when extreme conservatives come to power often their very first act is to limit women's freedoms. See Iran, for instance. Why are conservative men so afraid of women being free?
    >
    > I think that’s an unfair use of the term “conservative” in the second sentence Fundamentalist would be better
    >
    > The answer is that their religious texts reflect the social landscape of when they were written (you only have to compare Romans to the Pentateuch to see the impact of time)
    >
    > Fundamentalists build their appeal on simplistic calls to go back to a past when everything was peachy. Subjugating women - based on 4,000 year old texts - is a highly visible demonstration of compliance.
    >
    > It also wins them credit from the many social and intellectual inadequates in their ranks
    >
    > (You could have summarised the above as “playing to their base”)
    >
    > Cyclefree, you are describing people as 'extreme conservatives' and then sounding surprised when they do extremely extremist conservative things. The clue is in your name for these dreadful people who BTW should not be confused with the Burkean, Peelite, Parrisian or Clarkeian versions of conservatism.


    Oh, I am not surprised. Depressed mostly. Well, maybe a little surprised. My father was a small "c" conservative i.e. he was not a radical in terms of wanting to tear up the existing order. But he had the utmost respect for women and was so keen that I have a good education and inculcated in me a belief that I could do anything I wanted, that I was as good as any man, should not confine my ambitions etc.

    So I don't think that being conservative should necessarily equate with being the sort of man who wants to do down women and keep them in a confined space.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    Jonathan said:

    > @viewcode said:

    > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(



    There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.

    Dear God in Heaven above, why? Has that ever worked?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    viewcode said:

    Jonathan said:

    > @viewcode said:

    > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(



    There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.

    Dear God in Heaven above, why? Has that ever worked?
    Fine, just no holding the moral highground afterwards.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > > @Roger said:
    > > > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    > > >
    > > > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?
    > >
    > > Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.
    > >
    > > The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.
    > >
    > > If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.
    >
    > The LDs have swerved a little bit towards populism with "Bollocks to Brexit" for my tastes.
    >
    > The opposite of Farage's over simple solutions and divisive rhetoric is not simple solutions and divisive rhetoric on the Remain side.
    >
    >

    Jonathan. Are you staying with Labour for the euros?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    > @isam said:
    > If we revoke the Brexit Party may well lead the polls by January and Tommy Robinson and co will also become more prominent, if we No Deal the economy will take a major downturn and the Union could break apart
    >
    > My prediction a couple of years ago was that if MPs conspired to block Brexit and imprison Robinson they were setting up the perfect conditions to make Robinson a martyr and Farage a hero


    You do talk rubbish sometimes. (I mean this in the nicest possible way, of course.)

    MPs are not conspiring to put Robinson in prison. The justice system is taking its course. It is Robinson who is waving two fingers at it and conspiring to harm the very girls he claims to care about.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > @viewcode said:
    > > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(
    >
    > There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.

    It's pretty simple. You have values which appeal to the electorate and which they sense you truly feel, you have a narrative which fits those values, and you have policies which- according to your narrative- will help, and which symbolize your values.

    Centrists have mostly forgotten how to do this because they convinced themselves there was a consensus which made actual politics unnecessary, and because they're obsessed with triangulation, compromise and pandering, which directly hold them back from doing the above.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    Jonathan said:

    > @viewcode said:

    > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(



    There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.

    Dear God in Heaven above, why? Has that ever worked?
    Fine, just no holding the moral highground afterwards.
    I'm pretty sure politics does not work like that IRL... :(
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    Be nice

    She’s promoting numeracy not literacy

    👿

    Try JRM for literacy...

    https://twitter.com/j_amesmarriott/status/1128696996196433920
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited May 2019
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > @nico67 said:
    >
    > > Bollocks is hardly divisive rhetoric . Most people aren’t going to be annoyed at the terminology . It’s a funny term used to lightheartedly express dissatisfaction. The Lib Dems haven’t gone round calling those who disagree with them traitors which Leave have been peddling for months and is far more incendiary .
    >
    > Yes. The Brexiteers have done much worse. But 'Bollocks' is not exactly constructive or helpful either. Someone, somewhere is going to have find a way through this at some point.

    Sadly I can’t see that happening anytime soon. The next PM will be a hard Brexiter who will peddle even more division . The Tory Membership aren’t interested in a uniting figure , they just want their complete rupture with the EU and the UK being a Trump poodle .

    There’s no way back for the foreseeable. Time for compromise is over , once the no dealers decided that only that was a proper Brexit this has polarized Remainers .

    I used to be a Remainer willing to compromise , but no deal is a huge fraud . A deal was promised in the EU ref campaign but now that’s not possible because the ERG nutjobs spent months dishing out the traitor and betrayal sound bites .

    Remainers have little to lose now , a no deal crash out will be shown as the fraud it is or another vote happens .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    > @viewcode said:
    > > @viewcode said:
    >
    > > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(
    >
    >
    >
    > There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.
    >
    > Dear God in Heaven above, why? Has that ever worked?
    >
    > Fine, just no holding the moral highground afterwards.
    >
    > I'm pretty sure politics does not work like that IRL... :(

    To be sure, but people love claiming it anyway!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    > @Jonathan said:

    > > @viewcode said:

    > > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(

    >

    > There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.



    It's pretty simple. You have values which appeal to the electorate and which they sense you truly feel, you have a narrative which fits those values, and you have policies which- according to your narrative- will help, and which symbolize your values.



    Centrists have mostly forgotten how to do this because they convinced themselves there was a consensus which made actual politics unnecessary, and because they're obsessed with triangulation, compromise and pandering, which directly hold them back from doing the above.

    Can't we just nuke them from orbit? It would be so much easier... :)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @Roger said:
    > Jonathan. Are you staying with Labour for the euros?

    Good question. Haven't decided. Hope we get some more clarity between now and polling day.

    Feel 2nd vote now necessary. Very disappointed with muddy leadership position, but others in Labour are working hard in exceptionally difficult circumstances.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    > @Stereotomy said:
    > > @Jonathan said:
    > > > @viewcode said:
    > > > Because careful analysis and patient explanation worked so well last time... :(
    > >
    > > There has to be a way to do it, without becoming the thing you oppose.
    >
    > It's pretty simple. You have values which appeal to the electorate and which they sense you truly feel, you have a narrative which fits those values, and you have policies which- according to your narrative- will help, and which symbolize your values.
    >
    > Centrists have mostly forgotten how to do this because they convinced themselves there was a consensus which made actual politics unnecessary, and because they're obsessed with triangulation, compromise and pandering, which directly hold them back from doing the above.

    This, by the way, is why the Lib Dems are starting to climb back up now. The collapse after their U-turn on tuition fees didn't persist so long because everyone was enraged at them for the best part of a decade. It's because it helped voters see "Oh, these guys aren't <i>really</i> on my side. They may have policies I like, but to them those policies are just bargaining chips to push around the table. They don't have a fundamental guiding ideology pushing them towards these policies." Now, on EU, people are starting to sense that the Lib Dems' position is actually heartfelt
  • ah009ah009 Posts: 436
    > @Jonathan said:
    > The LDs have swerved a little bit towards populism with "Bollocks to Brexit" for my tastes.

    Vernacular is not populism. At least, not in my book. What do think populism means?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    > @Scott_P said:
    > Be nice
    >
    > She’s promoting numeracy not literacy
    >
    > 👿
    >
    > Try JRM for literacy...
    >
    > https://twitter.com/j_amesmarriott/status/1128696996196433920

    Is he referring to Mogg's book or Mogg himself ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > @Roger said:
    > > Jonathan. Are you staying with Labour for the euros?
    >
    > Good question. Haven't decided. Hope we get some more clarity between now and polling day.
    >
    > Feel 2nd vote now necessary. Very disappointed with muddy leadership position, but others in Labour are working hard in exceptionally difficult circumstances.
    >

    Voting LD could help to relegate the Tories to fourth place for the first time.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @ah009 said:
    > > @Jonathan said:
    > > The LDs have swerved a little bit towards populism with "Bollocks to Brexit" for my tastes.
    >
    > Vernacular is not populism. At least, not in my book. What do think populism means?
    >

    Are you arguing that to be precise, the 'Dem' in Lib Dem stands for demagogue?
  • ah009ah009 Posts: 436
    > @Jonathan said:
    > Are you arguing that to be precise, the 'Dem' in Lib Dem stands for demagogue?

    No, I'm saying that populism is about sticking it to elites, real or imagined. Saying "bollocks" isn't populist. An small example of pro-EU populism might be Caroline Lucas's tour of the north of the country telling Leave voters they were right to stick it to the powers that be (albeit there's a better way than Brexit).

    Populism isn't always bad, but I don't think that the Lib Dems "bollocks" is anything to do with populism.

    But that's my understanding of populism. Hence me asking.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @AndyJS said:
    > Voting LD could help to relegate the Tories to fourth place for the first time.

    Is the goal to humiliate the Tories, or perhaps is there more at stake these days?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > @AndyJS said:
    > > Voting LD could help to relegate the Tories to fourth place for the first time.
    >
    > Is the goal to humiliate the Tories, or perhaps is there more at stake these days?

    ---------------

    Nothing springs to mind.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @ah009 said:
    > > @Jonathan said:
    > > Are you arguing that to be precise, the 'Dem' in Lib Dem stands for demagogue?
    >
    > No, I'm saying that populism is about sticking it to elites, real or imagined. Saying "bollocks" isn't populist. An small example of pro-EU populism might be Caroline Lucas's tour of the north of the country telling Leave voters they were right to stick it to the powers that be (albeit there's a better way than Brexit).
    >
    > Populism isn't always bad, but I don't think that the Lib Dems "bollocks" is anything to do with populism.
    >
    > But that's my understanding of populism. Hence me asking.

    Well you are of course speaking-strictly correct, but I don't think borrowing from the Trump/Farage playbook is a great way to go.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Tory MPs increasingly favour a Matt Hancock v Dominic Raab run-off to succeed May reports the Standard

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-dominic-raab-emerges-as-a-male-thatcher-a4142801.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    > @Scott_P said:
    > Be nice
    >
    > She’s promoting numeracy not literacy
    >
    > 👿
    >
    > Try JRM for literacy...
    >
    > https://twitter.com/j_amesmarriott/status/1128696996196433920

    Should be a bestseller then...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @HYUFD said:
    > Tory MPs increasingly favour a Matt Hancock v Dominic Raab run-off to succeed May reports the Standard
    >
    > https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-dominic-raab-emerges-as-a-male-thatcher-a4142801.html

    Raab C Brexit, the guy who couldn't support the deal he negotiated and doesn't understand that Dover is important to the UK economy. Terrific! What a guy!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited May 2019
    > @Roger said:
    > You might both be pleased to see Campaign's Ad of the month by AMV. Bodyform's 'Viva La Vulva' appearing in toilets near you starting this week. What advertisers do today the rest of the world does tomorrow.....
    >
    > https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/bodyform-viva-la-vulva-bathroom-takeover-amv-bbdo/1584509?bulletin=campaign_creativity_bulletin&amp;utm_medium=EMAIL&amp;utm_campaign=eNews Bulletin&amp;utm_source=20190515&amp;utm_content=Campaign Creativity Fix (78)::&amp;email_hash=


    I translate that as 'Up the Fanny', which has a pleasing, earthy literalness.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Got our 'Labour will deliver Brexit' leaflet through the door today in Newcastle. F*ck 'em. My girlfriend and I, both previous Labour voters (her more so), will be voting Lib Dem.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > @HYUFD said:
    > > Tory MPs increasingly favour a Matt Hancock v Dominic Raab run-off to succeed May reports the Standard
    > >
    > > https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-dominic-raab-emerges-as-a-male-thatcher-a4142801.html
    >
    > Raab C Brexit, the guy who couldn't support the deal he negotiated and doesn't understand that Dover is important to the UK economy. Terrific! What a guy!

    Didn't Raab vote for the thing he had previously voted against and which he had previously negotiated ?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London



    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html

    Why on earth has he been knighted?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @Gallowgate said:
    > Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London
    >
    >
    >
    > https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html
    >
    > Why on earth has he been knighted?

    For services to the Conservative party.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545
    > @nico67 said:
    > > @Jonathan said:
    > > > @nico67 said:
    > >
    > > > Bollocks is hardly divisive rhetoric . Most people aren’t going to be annoyed at the terminology . It’s a funny term used to lightheartedly express dissatisfaction. The Lib Dems haven’t gone round calling those who disagree with them traitors which Leave have been peddling for months and is far more incendiary .
    > >
    > > Yes. The Brexiteers have done much worse. But 'Bollocks' is not exactly constructive or helpful either. Someone, somewhere is going to have find a way through this at some point.
    >
    > Sadly I can’t see that happening anytime soon. The next PM will be a hard Brexiter who will peddle even more division . The Tory Membership aren’t interested in a uniting figure , they just want their complete rupture with the EU and the UK being a Trump poodle .
    >
    > There’s no way back for the foreseeable. Time for compromise is over , once the no dealers decided that only that was a proper Brexit this has polarized Remainers .
    >
    > I used to be a Remainer willing to compromise , but no deal is a huge fraud . A deal was promised in the EU ref campaign but now that’s not possible because the ERG nutjobs spent months dishing out the traitor and betrayal sound bites .
    >
    > Remainers have little to lose now , a no deal crash out will be shown as the fraud it is or another vote happens .
    >
    >

    Agreed.

    "We have no plans for no deal because we are going to get a good deal."

    This is what we were told. If a good deal cannot be had then the referendum result is impossible to deliver in the way the leavers promised and they should have the humility to admit it.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The Brexit Party are way ahead on turnout in England and Wales .

    They’re matched in Scotland by the SNP. Interestingly Change UK also have good turnout figures but given their low numbers it’s not going to help much .

    Many polls show the BP at 80% turnout on the definite vote 10/10 . Pro second vote parties really need to deliver a strong message on turnout .

    I think logic suggests that if you’ve moved to the BP you’re highly motivated to vote . You’ve had to make an active decision to change party.

    I think it would be a shock to see the BP poll under 30% for the EU elections . As for the rest much more difficult to think what happens there .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > @HYUFD said:
    > > Tory MPs increasingly favour a Matt Hancock v Dominic Raab run-off to succeed May reports the Standard
    > >
    > > https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-dominic-raab-emerges-as-a-male-thatcher-a4142801.html
    >
    > Raab C Brexit, the guy who couldn't support the deal he negotiated and doesn't understand that Dover is important to the UK economy. Terrific! What a guy!

    Raab is a 'male Thatcher' apparently according to the article with a forensic legal mind, able to get up at dawn and in peak fitness thanks to his gym use and boxing
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @HYUFD said:
    > > @Jonathan said:
    > > > @HYUFD said:
    > > > Tory MPs increasingly favour a Matt Hancock v Dominic Raab run-off to succeed May reports the Standard
    > > >
    > > > https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-dominic-raab-emerges-as-a-male-thatcher-a4142801.html
    > >
    > > Raab C Brexit, the guy who couldn't support the deal he negotiated and doesn't understand that Dover is important to the UK economy. Terrific! What a guy!
    >
    > Raab is a 'male Thatcher' apparently according to the article with a forensic legal mind, able to get up at dawn and in peak fitness thanks to his gym use and boxing

    He clearly has been working out, focusing on developing his ego.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    > @HYUFD said:
    > Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London
    >
    > https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html

    How much has he raised to invest in Inverness ?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    > @anothernick said:
    > > @nico67 said:
    > > > @Jonathan said:
    > > > > @nico67 said:
    > > >
    > > > > Bollocks is hardly divisive rhetoric . Most people aren’t going to be annoyed at the terminology . It’s a funny term used to lightheartedly express dissatisfaction. The Lib Dems haven’t gone round calling those who disagree with them traitors which Leave have been peddling for months and is far more incendiary .
    > > >
    > > > Yes. The Brexiteers have done much worse. But 'Bollocks' is not exactly constructive or helpful either. Someone, somewhere is going to have find a way through this at some point.
    > >
    > > Sadly I can’t see that happening anytime soon. The next PM will be a hard Brexiter who will peddle even more division . The Tory Membership aren’t interested in a uniting figure , they just want their complete rupture with the EU and the UK being a Trump poodle .
    > >
    > > There’s no way back for the foreseeable. Time for compromise is over , once the no dealers decided that only that was a proper Brexit this has polarized Remainers .
    > >
    > > I used to be a Remainer willing to compromise , but no deal is a huge fraud . A deal was promised in the EU ref campaign but now that’s not possible because the ERG nutjobs spent months dishing out the traitor and betrayal sound bites .
    > >
    > > Remainers have little to lose now , a no deal crash out will be shown as the fraud it is or another vote happens .
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Agreed.
    >
    > "We have no plans for no deal because we are going to get a good deal."
    >
    > This is what we were told. If a good deal cannot be had then the referendum result is impossible to deliver in the way the leavers promised and they should have the humility to admit it.

    Except they won’t admit to anything . And will blame everyone else .
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    > @Scott_P said:
    > https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1128718552045883398

    Imagine some of the comments from certain posters on here if it were a group of Farage supporters going round intimidating remainers and breaking up their party meetings.

    It would be a game of brownshirt / kristallnacht / mosely / fascist bingo.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    HYUFD said:

    Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London



    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html

    Why on earth has he been knighted?
    He richly deserves it. He was an excellent minister, which was certainly a surprise to me. He acted in the interests of the country, and he was one of the very few LibDem ministers who understood what coalition should be about and who explained policy decisions properly and without childish tribalism (Steve Webb was another). It's a great pity that the LibDems in general didn't act as he did - if they had done, they'd have done much better in 2015.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @Richard_Nabavi said:
    > Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London
    >
    >
    >
    > https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html
    >
    > Why on earth has he been knighted?
    >
    > He richly deserves it. He was an excellent minister, which was certainly a surprise to me. He acted in the interests of the country, and he was one of the very few LibDem ministers who understood what coalition should be about and who explained policy decisions properly and without childish tribalism (Steve Webb was another). It's a great pity that the LibDems in general didn't act as he did - if they had done, they'd have done much better in 2015.

    As I said, knighted for services to the Tory party.
  • ah009ah009 Posts: 436
    > @Jonathan said:
    > Well you are of course speaking-strictly correct, but I don't think borrowing from the Trump/Farage playbook is a great way to go.

    Well ok. I think we have wildly diverging perspectives on this; when I read the "Trump / Farage playbook", I thought "eh?!" Maybe you can see something I can't.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    > @Jonathan said:
    > > @AndyJS said:
    > > Voting LD could help to relegate the Tories to fourth place for the first time.
    >
    > Is the goal to humiliate the Tories, or perhaps is there more at stake these days?

    The Tories have humiliated themselves.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I don’t think Remain politicians have gone strong enough on the message . Vote Leave promised a deal. There’s no mandate for no deal . If you want it put it to a second vote.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2019
    Jonathan said:


    As I said, knighted for services to the Tory party.

    Sorry, but that is cheap and unworthy of you. It's also garbage - the service to the Tory party in terms of handing us the 2015 majority was done by all those LibDems who trashed their own USP by looking utterly miserable at being involved in the 'new politics' they'd promised their voters, agreeing with Labour that their actions were awful, and doing nothing to celebrate the achievements of the coalition. It's unsurprising that the electorate agreed to put them out of their misery.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kyf_100 said:

    > @Scott_P said:

    >





    Imagine some of the comments from certain posters on here if it were a group of Farage supporters going round intimidating remainers and breaking up their party meetings.



    It would be a game of brownshirt / kristallnacht / mosely / fascist bingo.
    Even if one disagrees with everything Farage says and stands for, trying to prevent him from speaking just play into his hands.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    > @Richard_Nabavi said:
    > Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London
    >
    >
    >
    > https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html
    >
    > Why on earth has he been knighted?
    >
    > He richly deserves it. He was an excellent minister, which was certainly a surprise to me. He acted in the interests of the country, and he was one of the very few LibDem ministers who understood what coalition should be about and who explained policy decisions properly and without childish tribalism (Steve Webb was another). It's a great pity that the LibDems in general didn't act as he did - if they had done, they'd have done much better in 2015.

    Or as the rest of us might put it, he was a Tory stooge.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    > @SandyRentool said:
    > > @Roger said:
    > > I'm in a quandary who to vote for. I'd prefer to vote CHUK but I have a feeling the vote might be wasted and Lib Dem might be the best option. Anyone got any thoughts?
    > >
    > > I just heard a Scottish CHUKer say vote Lib Dem. I guess he wouldn't be saying it if there was any doubt?
    >
    > Voting for the Chukkers is definitely a wasted vote. Plus, they re a bunch of self-inflated bellends.
    >
    > The LibDems are still a bunch of Tory mini-mes who can't be trusted.
    >
    > If you want to vote for a party clearly advocating Remain, then Green is your best option. Plus you get to send a message about something rather more important.

    It's the Greens for me.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Odds on the Tories getting 5% to 9.99% at the Euro election:

    Back: 2.7
    Lay: 2.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.158459637
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    > @another_richard said:
    > > @HYUFD said:
    > > Former Coalition Minister Sir Danny Alexander declares the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank of which he is Vice President has raised $2.5 billion in a bond issue to invest in London
    > >
    > > https://www.standard.co.uk/business/london-boosted-by-asian-infrastructure-investment-bank-2-billion-bond-debut-says-danny-alexander-a4142826.html
    >
    > How much has he raised to invest in Inverness ?

    If he has enough left over from his ample bonus I am sure be might drop a few pennies over to his hometown
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @Richard_Nabavi said:
    > As I said, knighted for services to the Tory party.
    >
    > Sorry, but that is cheap and unworthy of you. It's also garbage - the service to the Tory party in terms of handing us the 2015 majority was done by all those LibDems who trashed their own USP by looking utterly miserable at being involved in the 'new politics' they'd promised their voters, agreeing with Labour that their actions were awful, and doing nothing to celebrate the achievements of the coalition. It's unsurprising that the electorate agreed to put them out of their misery.

    He had a critical role to hold off the worst excesses of Tory policy, but happily went along with it. We are not going to agree.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    > @another_richard said:
    > > @Jonathan said:
    > > > @HYUFD said:
    > > > Tory MPs increasingly favour a Matt Hancock v Dominic Raab run-off to succeed May reports the Standard
    > > >
    > > > https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-dominic-raab-emerges-as-a-male-thatcher-a4142801.html
    > >
    > > Raab C Brexit, the guy who couldn't support the deal he negotiated and doesn't understand that Dover is important to the UK economy. Terrific! What a guy!
    >
    > Didn't Raab vote for the thing he had previously voted against and which he had previously negotiated ?

    Yes, before he then voted for it
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    > @Charles said:
    > Christian fundamentalists are daft. The whole point of the NT was that it was New Covenant - but they revert to parsing the OT

    So basically the OT is backstory that you can ignore if you're in a hurry?

    I thought the OT was important because it established JC's legitimacy by referring back to it. But maybe I'm wrong.
This discussion has been closed.