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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Campbell expulsion from LAB – the ramifications continue

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Campbell expulsion from LAB – the ramifications continue

I’ve witnessed Kate Hoey share a stage with Nigel Farage, in front of an image mocking Jeremy Corbyn.Accross the street on another stage was Tommeh Robnson.Kate Hoey is still a labour member.Alastair Campbell has been expelled today.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    First out the door like Bad Al.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    The story worked - I didn't even notice the ECHR story until PB mentioned it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,962
    Second like Remain. Except in Labour. Maybe.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,962
    > @kle4 said:
    > The story worked - I didn't even notice the ECHR story until PB mentioned it.

    It was leading the BBC News earlier.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The point in bold at the end of the piece is the key one. Both Labour and the Conservatives are in desperate trouble as a result.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    45 minutes till the destruction of the Labour party ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928

    > @justin124 said:



    > But this has happened many times before. In May 2014 UKIP polled over 26% at the EU elections - less than a year later at the 2015 GE they received 12.5%. At the May 2017 Local Elections the LibDems polled 18% - yet but 5 weeks later could only manage 7.5%. Moreover, voters have always had a pretty frivolous view of EU elections - even more so than Local Elections - and that might be even more the case in the current climate. Why should we give more weight to the elections held on 23rd May v those held on 2nd May?



    ---



    Agreed. I was going to post the self-same point. There are ample examples in the past showing the LibDems or Greens or UKIP doing extremely well in the Euros and then failing to replicate their polling at the Generals.



    No-one takes the Euro elections seriously in the UK.

    I just looked, all the way back to the first PR Euro elections.
    In every election, the LDs did better in the following GE than in the Euro election

    1999 Euros 11.9%; 2001 GE 18.3%
    2004 Euros 14.4%; 2005 GE 22.9%
    2009 Euros 13.3%; 2010 GE 24.2%
    2014 Euros 6.9%; 2015 GE 8.2%
    Ahem!

    Other fun facts include the Greens putting on their best show at an EU election in 1989, winning just under 15% of the vote (nearly double their 2014 score, for example), and on all eight occasions the LibDems scoring a lower vote-share than at each subsequent GE.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/05/20/putting-thursday-into-context-a-look-back-at-previous-uk-euro-elections/
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    This is why I really like Matt Hancock.


    Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.

    In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.

    Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”

    The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.


    https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    > @AlastairMeeks said:
    > The point in bold at the end of the piece is the key one. Both Labour and the Conservatives are in desperate trouble as a result.

    I always thought there was a large hard core of people (much larger than 14% anyway) who would never vote anything other than Labour.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Pulpstar said:

    45 minutes till the destruction of the Labour party ?

    What's happening at 22:30?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    edited May 2019
    > @Gallowgate said:
    > 45 minutes till the destruction of the Labour party ?
    >
    > What's happening at 22:30?

    I think it's a reference to

    Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the British Government
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2019
    I've been trying to resign my Labour membership for months. I only joined to get rid of Corbyn but however often I tender my resignation I still get weekly cash appeals from Jeremy or John. I'll try an open letter to Jeremy admitting feeling slightly aroused by a bar chart. That'll test whether they want my loyalty or my money.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    And it is only going to get worse.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Stephen Bercow is a UK version of Ruth Ginsberg the Dem appointed Supreme Court judge .

    She’s hanging on even though well into her 80s , terrified of stepping down as that would mean the lunatic in the WH appoints another right winger .

    In Bercows case he will do everything possible to help MPs stop a no deal .
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the British Government

    Clearly left my political anorak on the train.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    > @Sean_F said:
    > > @AlastairMeeks said:
    > > The point in bold at the end of the piece is the key one. Both Labour and the Conservatives are in desperate trouble as a result.
    >
    > I always thought there was a large hard core of people (much larger than 14% anyway) who would never vote anything other than Labour.

    Ditto the Conservatives.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,962
    edited May 2019
    > @kle4 said:
    > The story worked - I didn't even notice the ECHR story until PB mentioned it.

    No doubt Campbell would appreciate the irony - of being the dead cat thrown on the table....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    > @MarqueeMark said:
    > > @kle4 said:
    > > The story worked - I didn't even notice the ECHR story until PB mentioned it.
    >
    > No doubt Campbell would appreciate the irony - of being the dead cat thrown on the table....

    The Thick of It episode where the defence IT overspend is drowned out by the epic rant of piss lady was one of my favourites.
  • augustus_carpaugustus_carp Posts: 224
    > @Roger said:
    > I've been trying to resign my Labour membership for months. I only joined to get rid of Corbyn but however often I tender my resignation I still get weekly cash appeals from Jeremy or John. I'll try an open letter to Jeremy admitting feeling slightly aroused by a bar chart. That'll test whether they want my loyalty or my money.
    >

    "Admitting to feeling slightly aroused by a bar chart"! Excellent phrase, made my day.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    edited May 2019

    This is why I really like Matt Hancock.


    One Matt in Hancock and the world's your oyster
    The bars are temples but the pearls ain't free
    You'll find a god in every Tory cloister
    And if you're lucky then the PM's a she
    I can feel Theresa sliding up to me

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=rgc_LRjlbTU
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited May 2019
    Hopefully Alistair Campbell can do the media strategy for the 'Remain Alliance'. The Brexit media need challenging and he has the experience and influence to do it with the right team of politicians to front the Remain Alliance. Until the Brexit supporting media realises the course of action they have indulged upon sells this country short economically and consequentially the adverse effects on the military, politics, national security and immigration will all work against the very interests Brexit was supposed to help.

    If Immigration was the driver of Brexit, replacing European immigrants for non-European ones is going to damage democracy as much as not doing Brexit at all. The Brexit supporting media have been playing with fire for the last 3 years and they will engulf us all with their foolish and endless pro-Brexit propaganda.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    > @Pulpstar said:
    > 45 minutes till the destruction of the Labour party ?

    Weapons of mass defection?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    People support a party at a GE because in the main they believe in that vision of the country for the next 5 years .

    Brexit transcends party allegiance because the ramifications won’t just be felt for 5 years but generations to come .

    Labours policy of waffle on Brexit has failed because they mistakenly believed Party allegiance would be stronger.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928

    > @Roger said:

    > I've been trying to resign my Labour membership for months. I only joined to get rid of Corbyn but however often I tender my resignation I still get weekly cash appeals from Jeremy or John. I'll try an open letter to Jeremy admitting feeling slightly aroused by a bar chart. That'll test whether they want my loyalty or my money.

    >



    "Admitting to feeling slightly aroused by a bar chart"! Excellent phrase, made my day.

    From stripograms to histograms?
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    > @TheWhiteRabbit said:
    > > @Gallowgate said:
    > > 45 minutes till the destruction of the Labour party ?
    > >
    > > What's happening at 22:30?
    >
    > I think it's a reference to
    >
    > Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the British Government

    Did Campbell write that dossier? I was too young to remember.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    > @Scott_P said:
    > https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1133471059318124545

    That did make me laugh.

    I'm a bit surprised Charles Clarke is still a member. He was passionately anti-Gordon (and tried to get me to join a plot to overthrow him - as he couldn't identify a possible successor, I declined). Then, IIRC, he was passionately anti-Miliband. Then he was passionately anti-Corbyn.

    The rule that you're thrown out if you voted for someone else is pretty universal in politics - there was a whole string of very brave LibDems and Tories in Broxtowe who were ejected by their parties for admitting voting for me. That said, I do think that the correct reading of the Labour rules is that you shouldn't attempt to persuade people to vote for another party, not that you mustn't admit to it in retrospect, so I hope Campbell is reinstated in due course.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    nico67 said:

    Stephen Bercow is a UK version of Ruth Ginsberg the Dem appointed Supreme Court judge .



    She’s hanging on even though well into her 80s , terrified of stepping down as that would mean the lunatic in the WH appoints another right winger .



    In Bercows case he will do everything possible to help MPs stop a no deal .

    Stephen Bercow?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    > @_Anazina_ said:
    > Stephen Bercow is a UK version of Ruth Ginsberg the Dem appointed Supreme Court judge .
    >
    >
    >
    > She’s hanging on even though well into her 80s , terrified of stepping down as that would mean the lunatic in the WH appoints another right winger .
    >
    >
    >
    > In Bercows case he will do everything possible to help MPs stop a no deal .
    >
    > Stephen Bercow?

    Oh yes what was I thinking it’s John Bercow. How embarrassing !
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    > @AlastairMeeks said:
    > > @Sean_F said:
    > > > @AlastairMeeks said:
    > > > The point in bold at the end of the piece is the key one. Both Labour and the Conservatives are in desperate trouble as a result.
    > >
    > > I always thought there was a large hard core of people (much larger than 14% anyway) who would never vote anything other than Labour.
    >
    > Ditto the Conservatives.

    I think the Conservative vote has been somewhat flakier since about 1990. Lots of Conservatives were willing to switch to the Lib Dems in local elections in the 90's, and to UKIP in the Euros, since the 2000's.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Has Rory the Tory from Balamory got any chance at all of winning this thing?

    He seems remarkable collegiate, interesting and sensible.

    Given that, I can only assume he is a complete no hoper.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    nico67 said:

    > @_Anazina_ said:

    > Stephen Bercow is a UK version of Ruth Ginsberg the Dem appointed Supreme Court judge .

    >

    >

    >

    > She’s hanging on even though well into her 80s , terrified of stepping down as that would mean the lunatic in the WH appoints another right winger .

    >

    >

    >

    > In Bercows case he will do everything possible to help MPs stop a no deal .

    >

    > Stephen Bercow?



    Oh yes what was I thinking it’s John Bercow. How embarrassing !

    Have you been watching Steven Berkoff on the telly?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    _Anazina_ said:

    Has Rory the Tory from Balamory got any chance at all of winning this thing?

    No.

    Yes yes, Corbyn was felt to be a no hoper too, but he connected with the membership, Rory has no chance of doing that.

    It's Hunt's move I find most interesting - conventional wisdom is his words on no deal have hurt him, making it all the more curious he did it. If he were bold enough to be so blunt one wonders why he, like most Cabinet Ministers, have left it to Rory to defend the WA this whole time.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    > @nunuone said:
    > > @TheWhiteRabbit said:
    > > > @Gallowgate said:
    > > > 45 minutes till the destruction of the Labour party ?
    > > >
    > > > What's happening at 22:30?
    > >
    > > I think it's a reference to
    > >
    > > Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the British Government
    >
    > Did Campbell write that dossier? I was too young to remember.

    Apparently it was written by a student probably also too young (or drunk) to remember
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.
    >
    >
    > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.
    >
    > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.
    >
    > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”
    >
    > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.
    >
    >
    > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849

    While that is so, big business needs to repair relations with its natural supporters.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    nunuone said:

    > @TheWhiteRabbit said:

    > > @Gallowgate said:

    > > 45 minutes till the destruction of the Labour party ?

    > >

    > > What's happening at 22:30?

    >

    > I think it's a reference to

    >

    > Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the British Government



    Did Campbell write that dossier? I was too young to remember.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Dossier

    It was issued to journalists on 3 February 2003 by Alastair Campbell, Blair's Director of Communications and Strategy, and concerned Iraq and weapons of mass destruction. Together with the earlier September Dossier, these documents were ultimately used by the government to justify its involvement in the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Which party is this more worrying for ?

    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/1133479321782374400
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > > https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1133471059318124545
    >
    > That did make me laugh.
    >
    > I'm a bit surprised Charles Clarke is still a member. He was passionately anti-Gordon (and tried to get me to join a plot to overthrow him - as he couldn't identify a possible successor, I declined). Then, IIRC, he was passionately anti-Miliband. Then he was passionately anti-Corbyn.
    >
    > The rule that you're thrown out if you voted for someone else is pretty universal in politics - there was a whole string of very brave LibDems and Tories in Broxtowe who were ejected by their parties for admitting voting for me. That said, I do think that the correct reading of the Labour rules is that you shouldn't attempt to persuade people to vote for another party, not that you mustn't admit to it in retrospect, so I hope Campbell is reinstated in due course.
    >
    >
    >

    I seem to remember that when Ken Livingstone ran as mayor of London the first time in the media there were strong suggestions that some very highly placed figures in the Labour party were giving their second preference to the Tory candidate instead of independent Livingstone. It may have been nonsense but given the iron grip on the media New Labour achieved especially at that point in time, I think the rumours were authentic.


    Anyway, I thought progressives were all for tactical voting. Labour and the LD profited from it in 1997 and 2001.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    > @kle4 said:
    > Has Rory the Tory from Balamory got any chance at all of winning this thing?
    >
    >
    >
    > No.
    >
    > Yes yes, Corbyn was felt to be a no hoper too, but he connected with the membership, Rory has no chance of doing that.
    >
    > It's Hunt's move I find most interesting - conventional wisdom is his words on no deal have hurt him, making it all the more curious he did it. If he were bold enough to be so blunt one wonders why he, like most Cabinet Ministers, have left it to Rory to defend the WA this whole time.

    They did not like May or trust her to get it over the line. Their egos make them think they can do it. Unlikely but you never know, it "should" be possible given the alternatives.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I’m confused is something happening at 10.30 tonight re some drama in Labour .
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    > @Pulpstar said:
    > Which party is this more worrying for ?
    >
    > htt//twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/1133479321782374400

    UKIP
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,962
    > @Sean_F said:
    > > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.
    > >
    > >
    > > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.
    > >
    > > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.
    > >
    > > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”
    > >
    > > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.
    > >
    > >
    > > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849
    >
    > While that is so, big business needs to repair relations with its natural supporters.

    Big business also needs to appreciate that the executive has to implement change required by the voters. Big business HATES change - with British big business arguably the worst. "Fuck business" might have been brutally expressed, but it is a sentiment that can fairly be said by the Executive.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    > @nico67 said:
    > I’m confused is something happening at 10.30 tonight re some drama in Labour .
    >
    >

    Nothing more than normal.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > > https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1133471059318124545
    >
    > That did make me laugh.
    >
    > I'm a bit surprised Charles Clarke is still a member. He was passionately anti-Gordon (and tried to get me to join a plot to overthrow him - as he couldn't identify a possible successor, I declined). Then, IIRC, he was passionately anti-Miliband. Then he was passionately anti-Corbyn.
    >
    > The rule that you're thrown out if you voted for someone else is pretty universal in politics - there was a whole string of very brave LibDems and Tories in Broxtowe who were ejected by their parties for admitting voting for me. That said, I do think that the correct reading of the Labour rules is that you shouldn't attempt to persuade people to vote for another party, not that you mustn't admit to it in retrospect, so I hope Campbell is reinstated in due course.
    >
    >
    >

    They’ll be coming for you soon Nick after your electoral pact. Shameful day for Labour.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    > @kle4 said:
    > Has Rory the Tory from Balamory got any chance at all of winning this thing?
    >
    >
    >
    > No.
    >
    > Yes yes, Corbyn was felt to be a no hoper too, but he connected with the membership, Rory has no chance of doing that.
    >
    > It's Hunt's move I find most interesting - conventional wisdom is his words on no deal have hurt him, making it all the more curious he did it. If he were bold enough to be so blunt one wonders why he, like most Cabinet Ministers, have left it to Rory to defend the WA this whole time.

    Maybe Hunt has realised that Boris is going to be the Brexit candidate and he Hunt has to modify his appeal to the Remain side of the party. Whoever is up against Johnson is going to have their work carried out due to the Brexit supporting media going all out to get Johnson into No.10.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited May 2019
    Tonight’s bath time entertainment was this podcast ft Lord Finkelstein. He makes the point that the public pay far less attention to politics than the bubble think. When Phillip Hammond made a slip up in his budget speech, DF called Lord Cooper of Populus and asked him if he thought the public would think Hammond a gaffe prone Chancellor, to which Cooper replied “They would, if they knew he WAS chancellor” 🤣

    https://player.fm/series/the-political-party/show-56-lord-daniel-finkelstein
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    > @Pulpstar said:
    > Which party is this more worrying for ?
    >
    > https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/1133479321782374400

    The Better Together party.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    > @Scott_P said:
    > https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1133479643238027266

    When will the DM be covering the deaths of disabled people who died weeks after being declared fit to work and having their benefits cut.

    The Tories could start culling the poor and it still wouldn’t make the DM front page !
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    > @Sean_F said:
    > > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.
    > >
    > >
    > > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.
    > >
    > > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.
    > >
    > > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”
    > >
    > > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.
    > >
    > >
    > > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849
    >
    > While that is so, big business needs to repair relations with its natural supporters.

    "Big business" has changed so much in the last 20 years, and does need reform.

    Executive pay is ludicrous, the idea that you need to pay £10m for a CEO because another firm does makes no sense. What is the realistic difference in ability between people willing to work for £1m or £10m? I would be pretty confident there is none, it will simply be candidates being in the right place at the right time.

    Companies with billions of profit, paying little tax and few employees is a relatively new concept, they need to be dealt with.

    But these are not the target of Boris' F-business, the companies who will be hit hardest by Brexit are those offering some of the best jobs available for median earners across the country. Those are the companies and people he could not care less about as long as he sits on the throne.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    Pulpstar said:

    Which party is this more worrying for ?



    What happened to Northern Ireland on the second map? :open_mouth:
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    John McTernan. With friends like that Campbell doesn’t need enemies.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    > @Foxy said:

    > > @Theuniondivvie said:

    > > > @Luckyguy1983 said:

    > > > But then Alan Clarke thought Heseltine was unredeemably middle class (despite being descended form Scotch trade himself). That's the thing about the English class system, there's always a posher predator up the food chain (ending with fairly bourgeois Brenda at the top, weirdly).

    > >

    > > > I think you'll find it's the British class system.

    > >

    > >

    > > I think you'll find it infects England much more than, say, Scotland. Of course we all have to live with the consequences.

    > >

    > >

    >

    > The Scottish class structure seems to me quite polarised, without the infinite subtle gradiations of resentment that feature south of the border.





    Well, there certainly aren't a lot of people worrying whether they're lower-upper-middle class or not.



    I remember a couple of years ago a new system of class categories was touted, and the BBC had an online questionnaire that let you find out which niche you would occupy, it was quite the topic of discussion on here (leavened with a bit of insecurity I thought), but not a smidgeon of interest in the areas of Scottish society I consort with.

    The idea that Scotland is, or will ever be, in any way different from England in terms of its notions of class, is one of the quainter delusions I've read here. But yes, the PB response to the online survey...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    On a serious note.

    Compare and contrast against how Labour "deal" (no sniggering at the back) with cases of anti semitism.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    nico67 said:

    > @Scott_P said:

    >





    When will the DM be covering the deaths of disabled people who died weeks after being declared fit to work and having their benefits cut.



    The Tories could start culling the poor and it still wouldn’t make the DM front page !
    Campbell's Labour helped cull a lot of poor Iraqis...
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    I think the bare minimum level of loyalty a political party can expect is to not vote for another party. It's a bit more important than supporting a football team.

    But for us non-partisans the duty is to vote in the national interest. People who vote for the same lot regardless of the current problems and the various manifestos on offer aren't doing their job. It's a bit more important than supporting a football team.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited May 2019
    > @Scott_P said:
    > https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1133479539911385088

    Good analysis from Steve Richards. I think Rory is a candidate for the future, once the current type of populism has driven into the mud.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    Sean_F said:

    > @TheScreamingEagles said:

    > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.

    >

    >

    > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.

    >

    > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.

    >

    > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”

    >

    > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.

    >

    >

    > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849



    While that is so, big business needs to repair relations with its natural supporters.

    Ugh, he's using big swear words like it makes him look 'ard. Everything that comes out of this one's mouth is utterly cringeworthy. Looking forward to post leadership election when we can all forget who he is again.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    This feels calamitous for Labour. Civil war on social media. But then the Tories aren't doing much/any better. A plague on ALL their houses.

    fpt, I loved this from foxy


    "The imminent collapse of the EU is such a perennial favourite, that it rivals the Punic wars for ubiquity, yet it goes from strength to strength. "

    The EU is going from strength to strength???

    lol. Let's break this down.

    Arguably its most symbolic and influential member - France - is roiled in endless civil conflict, often deeply violent. In another major nation, Italy, where the EU was founded (the Treaty of Rome) - an openly eurosceptic party is triumphant. Meanwhile, its largest Eastern European member, Poland, has now consistently elected europhobic governments.

    To cap it all off, perhaps its most globally significant member - the UK (if you add together soft power with hard power plus the English language) - is now actively leaving.

    Then there's the endless recession of Greece. The catastrophe of the euro. Hideously slow growth. The immigration crisis. Terrorism. On and on and on.

    And this political union, and would-be empire, is going from "strength to strength"???

    You fucking bawling idiot. I am a Remainer, because it is too economically damaging to Leave, but this is just the most rancid drivel. The EU is deeply, deeply troubled, and very possibly doomed.

    If you want to see an empire going from strength to strength, I suggest Britain 1750-1850, Rome around the 1st century AD, the USA from 1890-1950, or China about now. The EU is the Austro-Hungarian Empire in middle age, with a bit of the USSR in about 1970.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The one question I want Emily Maitlis to ask in the debate if it happens, especially of Johnson and Gove.

    Where’s the mandate for no deal ? You both promised a deal in Vote Leave .
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Scott_P said:
    My God, yes, I can see him in a Paisley shirt at the Underground Club.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.
    >
    >
    > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.
    >
    > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.
    >
    > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”
    >
    > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.
    >
    >
    > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849

    I doubt many of the executive oligarchy of big business are 'wealth creators'.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The SNP must be absolubtely cock a hoop about all this. The Brexit party pretty much cleaning up in England and Wales is catnip for them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    nico67 said:

    The one question I want Emily Maitlis to ask in the debate if it happens, especially of Johnson and Gove.



    Where’s the mandate for no deal ? You both promised a deal in Vote Leave .

    You don't need to convince Gove.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    > @Sunil_Prasannan said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    >
    > > https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1133479643238027266
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > When will the DM be covering the deaths of disabled people who died weeks after being declared fit to work and having their benefits cut.
    >
    >
    >
    > The Tories could start culling the poor and it still wouldn’t make the DM front page !
    >
    > Campbell's Labour helped cull a lot of poor Iraqis...

    I’m not disagreeing . I was totally against the Iraq War . Blair though only fucked other countries not his own like Cameron .
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    > @Theuniondivvie said:
    > > @HYUFD said:
    > > > @StuartDickson said:
    > > > > @AndreaParma_82 said:
    > > > > What is left of SLAB is collapsing right now.
    > > > > Left winger Neil Findlay resigns from shadow cabinet and announces he will stand down in 2021.
    > > > > Daniel Johnson (moderate) is considering quitting shadow cabinet too.
    > > > > Labour MSPs group meeting takes place this afternoon
    > > >
    > > > They are going to have to reassess their opposition to independence. Even a neutral position would help them. Right now they’re simply aping the Tories, and you just can’t out-Tory the Tories.
    > >
    > > You also can't out-Nat the SNP
    >
    >
    > As I've no doubt tediously pointed out before, they should have been out-federalising/devo-maxing the LDs, not a hugely difficult task since the LD devotion to federalism is always more honoured in the breach than the observance. Instead they lurched between Union lite and more Yoon than the Tories, occasionally getting Brown to lumber out with his constitutional performing bear act.
    > Too late now.

    Federalism was a great idea... fifty years ago. Now it is the tired old joke that Rennie and Brown feel obliged to perform once a year in order to keep their adolescent followers amused. Nobody else pays them the slightest attention.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    > @kle4 said:

    > Has Rory the Tory from Balamory got any chance at all of winning this thing?

    >

    >

    >

    > No.

    >

    > Yes yes, Corbyn was felt to be a no hoper too, but he connected with the membership, Rory has no chance of doing that.

    >

    > It's Hunt's move I find most interesting - conventional wisdom is his words on no deal have hurt him, making it all the more curious he did it. If he were bold enough to be so blunt one wonders why he, like most Cabinet Ministers, have left it to Rory to defend the WA this whole time.



    Maybe Hunt has realised that Boris is going to be the Brexit candidate and he Hunt has to modify his appeal to the Remain side of the party. Whoever is up against Johnson is going to have their work carried out due to the Brexit supporting media going all out to get Johnson into No.10.

    I guess, on the appeal to remain side, but even BigG admits the no deal brigade are the largest faction in the party membership, I don't see how anyone wins without at least saying they are fine with no deal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    How can anyone not be able to load a dishwasher (assuming they are fit and able)?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    > @TheScreamingEagles said:

    > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.

    >

    >

    > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.

    >

    > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.

    >

    > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”

    >

    > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.

    >

    >

    > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849



    I doubt many of the executive oligarchy of big business are 'wealth creators'.

    If he's the white knight of big business, they may as well relocate to Dublin right now, Brexit or no Brexit.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > @Sean_F said:
    > > > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > > > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.
    > > >
    > > > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.
    > > >
    > > > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”
    > > >
    > > > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849
    > >
    > > While that is so, big business needs to repair relations with its natural supporters.
    >
    > "Big business" has changed so much in the last 20 years, and does need reform.
    >
    > Executive pay is ludicrous, the idea that you need to pay £10m for a CEO because another firm does makes no sense. What is the realistic difference in ability between people willing to work for £1m or £10m? I would be pretty confident there is none, it will simply be candidates being in the right place at the right time.
    >
    > Companies with billions of profit, paying little tax and few employees is a relatively new concept, they need to be dealt with.
    >
    > But these are not the target of Boris' F-business, the companies who will be hit hardest by Brexit are those offering some of the best jobs available for median earners across the country. Those are the companies and people he could not care less about as long as he sits on the throne.

    The culture of there being no penalty for failure, and boards ripping off employees, pensioners, customers, shareholders, or creditors has generated widespread disgust.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    > @rottenborough said:
    > How can anyone not be able to load a dishwasher (assuming they are fit and able)?

    It is an art. The other members of my household have not quite perfected it.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > > https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1133471059318124545
    >
    > That did make me laugh.
    >
    > I'm a bit surprised Charles Clarke is still a member. He was passionately anti-Gordon (and tried to get me to join a plot to overthrow him - as he couldn't identify a possible successor, I declined). Then, IIRC, he was passionately anti-Miliband. Then he was passionately anti-Corbyn.
    >
    > The rule that you're thrown out if you voted for someone else is pretty universal in politics - there was a whole string of very brave LibDems and Tories in Broxtowe who were ejected by their parties for admitting voting for me. That said, I do think that the correct reading of the Labour rules is that you shouldn't attempt to persuade people to vote for another party, not that you mustn't admit to it in retrospect, so I hope Campbell is reinstated in due course.
    >
    >
    >

    It really sticks in the craw that Labour can kick out Campbell in about 10 minutes for doing what many, many other Party have done and yet Kate Hoey is allowed to campaign alongside Nigel Farage, Andrew Fisher has a senior position in Corbyn's office and outrageous cases of antisemitism gather dust in HQ files. Indefensible double standards.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Off topic is there a reliable site that has the full UK European Elections results including turnout?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,777
    @rottenborough said:
    My God, yes, I can see him in a Paisley shirt at the Underground Club.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Rory Stewart is like something out of a bad acid trip.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Scott_P said:
    It would be kind of hilarious if Rory's refreshingly homey, no hope campaign became a viral success and propelled him to leadership, and it turned out it was all part of a marketing strategy from Lynton Crosby or something.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > @Sean_F said:
    > > > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > > > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.
    > > >
    > > > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.
    > > >
    > > > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”
    > > >
    > > > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849
    > >
    > > While that is so, big business needs to repair relations with its natural supporters.
    >
    > "Big business" has changed so much in the last 20 years, and does need reform.
    >
    > Executive pay is ludicrous, the idea that you need to pay £10m for a CEO because another firm does makes no sense. What is the realistic difference in ability between people willing to work for £1m or £10m? I would be pretty confident there is none, it will simply be candidates being in the right place at the right time.
    >
    > Companies with billions of profit, paying little tax and few employees is a relatively new concept, they need to be dealt with.
    >
    > But these are not the target of Boris' F-business, the companies who will be hit hardest by Brexit are those offering some of the best jobs available for median earners across the country. Those are the companies and people he could not care less about as long as he sits on the throne.

    Isn't it curious how globalisation has led to downward pressure on workers earnings but upward pressure on executive earnings.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    rcs1000 said:

    @rottenborough said:

    My God, yes, I can see him in a Paisley shirt at the Underground Club.



    ++++++++++++++++++++++++



    Rory Stewart is like something out of a bad acid trip.

    Set the controls for the heart of Downing Street.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,777
    > @Pulpstar said:
    > Which party is this more worrying for ?
    >
    > https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/1133479321782374400

    Why has the SNP changed colour???
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    How can anyone not be able to load a dishwasher (assuming they are fit and able)?

    It seems like a joke about being bad at domestic tasks from the early 90s or something.

    Then again, remember the fake outrage when Philip and Theresa May made a joke about boy tasks and girl tasks, notwithstanding the fact that she was, and is, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited May 2019
    > @rcs1000 said:
    > @rottenborough said:
    > My God, yes, I can see him in a Paisley shirt at the Underground Club.
    >
    > ++++++++++++++++++++++++
    >
    > Rory Stewart is like something out of a bad acid trip.
    >

    Alternatively, from postwar and mid-century, pre-Thatcherite and noblesse oblige, liberal upper-middle class England ( or Britain ) , in a good way.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    > @WhisperingOracle said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > > https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1133479539911385088
    >
    > Good analysis from Steve Richards. I think Rory is a candidate for the future, once the current type of populism has driven into the mud.<

    +++++

    That's actually very convincing from Rory. Contrast that with the dreadful video from Javid.

    Rory sounds genuine, convinced, and not scared to use the word "love". Which is brave. But it works. The opposite of wonkish wooden politics, or Corbynesque sloganising, while avoiding sentimentality.

    However I agree it is a bit too early for him (and he is too posh, Etonian and Remainery for the moment)

    I reckon the Tories' best bet is Gove, with Stewart as 2nd in command. A Brexiteer closely supported by a Remainer.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    > @anothernick said:
    > > @NickPalmer said:
    > > > @Scott_P said:
    > > > https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1133471059318124545
    > >
    > > That did make me laugh.
    > >
    > > I'm a bit surprised Charles Clarke is still a member. He was passionately anti-Gordon (and tried to get me to join a plot to overthrow him - as he couldn't identify a possible successor, I declined). Then, IIRC, he was passionately anti-Miliband. Then he was passionately anti-Corbyn.
    > >
    > > The rule that you're thrown out if you voted for someone else is pretty universal in politics - there was a whole string of very brave LibDems and Tories in Broxtowe who were ejected by their parties for admitting voting for me. That said, I do think that the correct reading of the Labour rules is that you shouldn't attempt to persuade people to vote for another party, not that you mustn't admit to it in retrospect, so I hope Campbell is reinstated in due course.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    > It really sticks in the craw that Labour can kick out Campbell in about 10 minutes for doing what many, many other Party have done and yet Kate Hoey is allowed to campaign alongside Nigel Farage, Andrew Fisher has a senior position in Corbyn's office and outrageous cases of antisemitism gather dust in HQ files. Indefensible double standards.

    If you threw out every MP that has campaigned along side otherwise opponents on a cross party issue there wouldn't be many MPs left.

    Working with opponents on cross party issues is the basis for compromise not an expellable offence or remotely comparable to voting for another party.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    > @kle4 said:
    > The one question I want Emily Maitlis to ask in the debate if it happens, especially of Johnson and Gove.
    >
    >
    >
    > Where’s the mandate for no deal ? You both promised a deal in Vote Leave .
    >
    > You don't need to convince Gove.

    No, he knows we hold all the cards and can choose the path we want. The EU is bound to fall in line.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    rcs1000 said:

    > @Pulpstar said:

    > Which party is this more worrying for ?

    >

    >





    Why has the SNP changed colour???
    Colours fade with age. Why, the Tory blue has definitely lightened in the same time! Hmm, what's that?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    edited May 2019
    > @Byronic said:
    > This feels calamitous for Labour. Civil war on social media. But then the Tories aren't doing much/any better. A plague on ALL their houses.
    >
    > fpt, I loved this from foxy
    >
    >
    > "The imminent collapse of the EU is such a perennial favourite, that it rivals the Punic wars for ubiquity, yet it goes from strength to strength. "
    >
    > The EU is going from strength to strength???
    >
    > lol. Let's break this down.
    >
    > Arguably its most symbolic and influential member - France - is roiled in endless civil conflict, often deeply violent. In another major nation, Italy, where the EU was founded (the Treaty of Rome) - an openly eurosceptic party is triumphant. Meanwhile, its largest Eastern European member, Poland, has now consistently elected europhobic governments.
    >
    > To cap it all off, perhaps its most globally significant member - the UK (if you add together soft power with hard power plus the English language) - is now actively leaving.
    >
    > Then there's the endless recession of Greece. The catastrophe of the euro. Hideously slow growth. The immigration crisis. Terrorism. On and on and on.
    >
    > And this political union, and would-be empire, is going from "strength to strength"???
    >
    > You fucking bawling idiot. I am a Remainer, because it is too economically damaging to Leave, but this is just the most rancid drivel. The EU is deeply, deeply troubled, and very possibly doomed.
    >
    > If you want to see an empire going from strength to strength, I suggest Britain 1750-1850, Rome around the 1st century AD, the USA from 1890-1950, or China about now. The EU is the Austro-Hungarian Empire in middle age, with a bit of the USSR in about 1970.
    >
    >

    The jaw-droppingly basic mistake you are making is to categorise the EU as an empire.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I don't load the dishwasher, I "do it wrong" apparently !
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited May 2019
    > @nico67 said:
    > > @Sunil_Prasannan said:
    > > > @Scott_P said:
    > >
    > > > https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1133479643238027266
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > When will the DM be covering the deaths of disabled people who died weeks after being declared fit to work and having their benefits cut.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > The Tories could start culling the poor and it still wouldn’t make the DM front page !
    > >
    > > Campbell's Labour helped cull a lot of poor Iraqis...
    >
    > I’m not disagreeing . I was totally against the Iraq War . Blair though only fucked other countries not his own like Cameron .

    Maybe you inadvertently point out a way out of Brexit. Johnson becomes PM and one of his first actions is to join a war against Iran! Its the sort of thing the media love and it gives Johnson the cover to cancel Brexit. Trump probably wants a limited war before he goes for re-election in 2020 and John Bolton is excitedly quivering like a greyhound waiting to get out of a trap in relation to sorting Iran out.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,722
    > @rottenborough said:
    > How can anyone not be able to load a dishwasher (assuming they are fit and able)?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,777
    @Sean_F said:
    The culture of there being no penalty for failure, and boards ripping off employees, pensioners, customers, shareholders, or creditors has generated widespread disgust.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    What do you think an appropriate penalty for failure should be?

    I was thinking of some kind of ritual disemboweling, but am open to suggestions
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    > @Sean_F said:
    > > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > > @Sean_F said:
    > > > > @TheScreamingEagles said:
    > > > > This is why I really like Matt Hancock.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Matt Hancock has lambasted Conservative leadership rival Boris Johnson for his anti-business stance, arguing that the party should repair relations with corporate Britain, which has felt shunned by the May government.
    > > > >
    > > > > In a wide-ranging interview with the FT, the health secretary and leadership candidate set out his proposals to revitalise the economy, break the Brexit stalemate and rebuild relations with businesses.
    > > > >
    > > > > Acknowledging that the Tories had put too much distance between themselves and wealth creators, he referred to an infamous remark by Mr Johnson: “To the people who say ‘fuck business’, I say ‘fuck, fuck business’.”
    > > > >
    > > > > The former foreign secretary reportedly said “fuck business” last year in response to the fears of some business leaders that a hard Brexit would cause economic damage and disrupt trading relations. He has refused to deny making the remark, but his allies insist Mr Johnson has a record “of supporting businesses great and small”.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > https://www.ft.com/content/b18dd0c8-8151-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849
    > > >
    > > > While that is so, big business needs to repair relations with its natural supporters.
    > >
    > > "Big business" has changed so much in the last 20 years, and does need reform.
    > >
    > > Executive pay is ludicrous, the idea that you need to pay £10m for a CEO because another firm does makes no sense. What is the realistic difference in ability between people willing to work for £1m or £10m? I would be pretty confident there is none, it will simply be candidates being in the right place at the right time.
    > >
    > > Companies with billions of profit, paying little tax and few employees is a relatively new concept, they need to be dealt with.
    > >
    > > But these are not the target of Boris' F-business, the companies who will be hit hardest by Brexit are those offering some of the best jobs available for median earners across the country. Those are the companies and people he could not care less about as long as he sits on the throne.
    >
    > The culture of there being no penalty for failure, and boards ripping off employees, pensioners, customers, shareholders, or creditors has generated widespread disgust.

    Don't forget taxpayers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    ?

    > @kle4 said:

    > The one question I want Emily Maitlis to ask in the debate if it happens, especially of Johnson and Gove.

    >

    >

    >

    > Where’s the mandate for no deal ? You both promised a deal in Vote Leave .

    >

    > You don't need to convince Gove.



    No, he knows we hold all the cards and can choose the path we want. The EU is bound to fall in line.

    He doesn't seem to believe that anymore, whatever his tone on the leadership, hence his actually defending the deal in the past half year, unlike most of his compatriots.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237

    Pulpstar said:

    Which party is this more worrying for ?



    What happened to Northern Ireland on the second map? :open_mouth:
    When I am made Supreme Commander I will decree that every map depicting election results will include Northern Ireland
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    > @Pulpstar said:
    > The SNP must be absolubtely cock a hoop about all this. The Brexit party pretty much cleaning up in England and Wales is catnip for them.

    The best bit is that this mess is *entirely* self-inflicted.

    Cameron wasn’t happy with simply firing a revolver at his foot. He thought it wise to release a whopping great nuclear dirty bomb right at the heart of the English body politic.

    You will be cleaning up your scarred nation for decades to come. We Scots are just looking on aghast. How, oh how, could you be so daft?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    rcs1000 said:

    @Sean_F said:

    The culture of there being no penalty for failure, and boards ripping off employees, pensioners, customers, shareholders, or creditors has generated widespread disgust.



    ++++++++++++++++++++++



    What do you think an appropriate penalty for failure should be?



    I was thinking of some kind of ritual disemboweling, but am open to suggestions

    Being forcibly made to listen to TSE drone on about the merits of AV?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    I'm awfully confused, I feel like I've seen reports he has already in effect backed it about half a dozen times in the past month alone. I don't doubt it will eventually be undeniable, but really does it deserve fanfare when many of the party have claimed it is their policy for months anyway?
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