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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris Johnson – The False Favourite for the Tory leadership

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris Johnson – The False Favourite for the Tory leadership

Right now British politics and British political betting is consumed by the race for next Conservative leader and next Prime Minister. Conventional wisdom on both is that Boris Johnson is the man to beat. He has traded below evens on Betfair for the roles and after an initial rush of excitement, he has settled down in both next Conservative leader and next Prime Minister markets at about 5/2 at the time of writing.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    He'd boil his kids in oil if it suited him.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited May 2019
    Boris as leader would also open the party to the same sort of attacks that have been made against Labour over antisemitism (mutatis mutandis) which is why I've also been a longstanding Boris-sceptic. The court case, regardless of its merits, is another potential fly in the ointment if it will be a reminder to MPs of Boris's sometimes nebulous relationship with the truth.

    On the other hand, Boris is said to be guided by Lynton Crosby, and has the backing of the Telegraph. The leadership electorate might well see these as positives!
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Boris is an untrustworthy incapable careerist and opportunist, and I have always believed that he will not be in the two final candidates selected by MPs.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    I am less certain that Boris will withdraw early. He should have learned the lesson of last time that anything can happen, like Gove's implosion and May's election. Shadsy offers 2/1 against Boris pulling out before the start.
  • > @Toms said:
    > He'd boil his kids in oil if it suited him.

    Careful throwing "facts" like that about, you might end up in court.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    A plausible argument, and a fine article apart from the last bit:
    “but we are all being dazzled by Boris Johnson...”

    I would guess that most of us are not dazzled at all, so much as baffled as to what the thought processes of the Tory selectorate might be. And unable to summon up much enthusiasm for the alternatives.
  • Boris just isn't PM material but in his defence, who is these days?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    How many ovens does Boris have? That seems to be the key Tory metric.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
    > > @Toms said:
    > > He'd boil his kids in oil if it suited him.
    >
    > Careful throwing "facts" like that about, you might end up in court.

    How about ‘in my opinion, he gives the strong impression of someone perfectly willing to...’ ?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Suppose all of the declared candidates, and perhaps a few more, are in the first MPs ballot.

    How many votes will the first-placed candidate receive?
  • Fairly pressing assurance that I should be voting for Boris when I get my vote. But, I was going to in any case. Glad to see how worried he makes our opponents.

    Perhaps we should introduce a £3 membership option so our enemies can vote for him as well.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I think this contest, as crowded as the field is at the moment, could well end in another coronation.

    If the final two aren't both equally hardline on Brexit, then the more pragmatic contender could easily conclude that they have no chance in the membership ballot and withdraw in favour of their opponent, presumably in exchange for a senior cabinet role. A coronation would also have the considerable advantage of getting the new leader in place and Mrs May packed off back to Berkshire as rapidly as possible.

    Leadsom as PM and Gove as Chancellor, perhaps?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Fairly pressing assurance that I should be voting for Boris when I get my vote. But, I was going to in any case. Glad to see how worried he makes our opponents.



    Perhaps we should introduce a £3 membership option so our enemies can vote for him as well.

    Not waiting for the hustings? Or a chance encounter with Rory in a Lake District tea-shop?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300




    Perhaps we should introduce a £3 membership option so our enemies can vote for him [Boris] as well.

    Conservative Party membership is up by a third in a year, with another 36,000 having joined just in time for the leadership election. What could possibly go wrong?
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/25/conservative-membership-surge-amid-fears-campaign-swing-leadership/
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122
    Good piece - but I'm not a Boris fan.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Keep laying the favourite.

    (My book is green on the whole field and massively red on Boris).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,051
    > @Sandpit said:
    > Keep laying the favourite.
    >
    > (My book is green on the whole field and massively red on Boris).

    Mine too, apart from Hancock, who I cannot see as a serious contender.

    May put some real muppets in cabinet.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Do we know when Boris is likely to actually be in Court?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    > @Foxy said:
    > > @Sandpit said:
    > > Keep laying the favourite.
    > >
    > > (My book is green on the whole field and massively red on Boris).
    >
    > Mine too, apart from Hancock, who I cannot see as a serious contender.
    >
    > May put some real muppets in cabinet.

    Which department did Gonzo get?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Boris isn't fit to be PM.

    However, the idea that fitness for a leadership position is a prerequisite has been shown to be false.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    > @philiph said:
    > > @Foxy said:
    > > > @Sandpit said:
    > > > Keep laying the favourite.
    > > >
    > > > (My book is green on the whole field and massively red on Boris).
    > >
    > > Mine too, apart from Hancock, who I cannot see as a serious contender.
    > >
    > > May put some real muppets in cabinet.
    >
    > Which department did Gonzo get?

    International trade I think.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    Speaking of overpriced favourites, you can lay Brexit party to win Peterborough by-election at 1.33.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    > @twistedfirestopper3 said:
    > > @Toms said:
    > > He'd boil his kids in oil if it suited him.
    >
    > Careful throwing "facts" like that about, you might end up in court.

    It's clearly just my opinion.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    edited May 2019
    On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2019
    An insightful header I hope. If Boris fails big time it might even gain the iconic status of David Herdson's post pre the 2017 election. I'm sure a lot of us -and the country-will be wishing it well.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,224
    > @rkrkrk said:
    > Speaking of overpriced favourites, you can lay Brexit party to win Peterborough by-election at 1.33.

    Funny, but I've been thinking that too. They will probably win, but they shouldn't be three to one on.

    As regards Alastair's excellent piece, I'm of the same opinion but for a different reason. About half the endorsements are known and the front runners are as expected - Hunt, Johnson, Gove and Raab. My understanding is that Johnson is the Marmite candidate and therefore less likely than the other three to pick up transfers as the eliminations progress. If that is so, he has little chance of making the run-off. Five to two is a terrible price.

    A greater mystery however is Leadsome's place amongst the betting favorites. She has just four endorsements. That suggests an early departure rather than a place in the run off. Thirteen to two is worse value than Boris.

    I don't get it, but I am laying it to the max.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    > @DavidL said:
    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...
    >
    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?
    >
    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.
    >
    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.
    >
    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?
    >
    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.

    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited May 2019
    Maybe those running against him are doing so to make their mark in the expectation of pulling out and backing him later and hoping for preferment? Just saying.

    On the other hand, Tory members too easily reel off that he is a ‘winner’, overlooking his descent to marmite status since 2016 and the tiny detail that he was up against Livingstone when he won.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited May 2019
    How is Matt so consistently brilliant?
    https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1133779631029530624/photo/1

    (I love the story that he gets paid more than the editor, and that the board would see his loss as a resigning mater for said editor - and they know he has standing offers from the Mail and the Sun).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    > @MarqueeMark said:
    > > @DavidL said:
    > > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...
    > >
    > > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?
    > >
    > > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.
    > >
    > > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.
    > >
    > > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?
    > >
    > > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.
    >
    > An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
    >
    > Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    If the EU dread him it's because they don't believe a word he says, and it's no fun negotiating with someone who keeps changing their minds, or worse, continually fudging.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753

    > @DavidL said:

    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    >

    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    >

    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    >

    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    >

    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    >

    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.



    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.



    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    Better than David Miliband? Are these really the standards we want to set? Really?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Even pre-referendum the swing when he took over as the new candidate in Ruislip was only fractionally above the national average. He is swimming against a demographic tide in his seat, but this doesn’t suggest that he had stardust status even then, amongst his electorate.

    My guess is that Tory members are disproportionately concentrated in the southern shires (unfortunate, given where their new electorate is), and that Boris’s electoral appeal runs out as soon as you start to go north or west.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    > @DavidL said:

    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    >

    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    >

    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    >

    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    >

    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    >

    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.



    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.



    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    Why call him Boris when no other politician is known by first names? It has been cultivated to make him appear cuddly, harmless, one of us etc, etc. I noticed on Marr last Sunday they agreed it was wrong and tried with difficulty fo call him Johnson.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    nichomar said:

    > @DavidL said:

    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    >

    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    >

    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    >

    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    >

    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    >

    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.



    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.



    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    Why call him Boris when no other politician is known by first names? It has been cultivated to make him appear cuddly, harmless, one of us etc, etc. I noticed on Marr last Sunday they agreed it was wrong and tried with difficulty fo call him Johnson.
    The only other Tory I can think of who has managed that trick is Ruth. It is not a trick to be underestimated.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,704
    > @Peter_the_Punter said:
    > > @rkrkrk said:
    > > Speaking of overpriced favourites, you can lay Brexit party to win Peterborough by-election at 1.33.
    >
    > Funny, but I've been thinking that too. They will probably win, but they shouldn't be three to one on.
    >
    > As regards Alastair's excellent piece, I'm of the same opinion but for a different reason. About half the endorsements are known and the front runners are as expected - Hunt, Johnson, Gove and Raab. My understanding is that Johnson is the Marmite candidate and therefore less likely than the other three to pick up transfers as the eliminations progress. If that is so, he has little chance of making the run-off. Five to two is a terrible price.
    >
    > A greater mystery however is Leadsome's place amongst the betting favorites. She has just four endorsements. That suggests an early departure rather than a place in the run off. Thirteen to two is worse value than Boris.
    >
    > I don't get it, but I am laying it to the max.

    Boris is not a mum though
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,006
    If not Boris then whom? The next PM will be a dyed in the wool leaver - if there was any lingering doubt please witness the mauling at the weekend and the response to it.

    Boris may be all the things his critics say. But he is also a character, an election winner, a motivator. Is Leadsom a better choice? McVey? Baker? Raab? Seriously?

    Because with all his flaws, Boris is at least someone non-political people recognise. When your opponent is Nigel Love Me Love Me Farage you need someone with a bit of panache to compete against him.

    The battle in the Tory Party surely has evolved pat Boris vs not Boris. Its Leave vs Remain, and if its not Boris then Leave throws away its best card. It'll be Boris.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708
    edited May 2019
    If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and is not a committed No Dealer either.

    If not Boris it will likely be Raab, one of them will almost certainly have the MPs to get to the final 2 with the support of hard Brexiteers and all the Tory membership polling shows whichever of them does would then trounce Hunt or Javid and comfortably beat Gove, their likely opponents from the Remain and Mayite loyalist wings of the party. If Gove is the Leaver in the final 2 then the membership likely votes for him over Hint or Javid too. Leadsom would have a chance if she got to the final two but at the moment she trails badly with MPs with Heather Wheeler her sole endorsement.

    On the latest ConHome numbers Hunt currently leads with MPs on 29, Boris and Gove are tied for second on 26, then Raab is third on 22 with the rest of the field some way back with Javid next on 14 and Hancock on 11.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    > @DavidL said:
    > > @DavidL said:
    >
    > > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.
    >
    >
    >
    > An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
    >
    >
    >
    > Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...
    >
    > Better than David Miliband? Are these really the standards we want to set? Really?

    Look at the field....

    If we didn't have Brexit hanging over democracy in this country, we could take a punt on Rory.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    This £350 million case looks barmy. Politicians will always put the best gloss on their case and ignore the awkward facts that demolish it. That is called politics. The fact that he quotes a gross figure rather than a nett figure is quite normal. I've yet to see a politician who quotes facts to undermine his own case. Isn't selective reporting the first lesson all activists learn?.

    He gets a lot of stick from his enemies Again quite normal, because he's an effective politician. Despite his faults.

    As far as I'm concerned, the Tories can vote for Vlad the Impaler, but this court case helps make the legal system look silly, not Boris.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122
    > @MarqueeMark said:
    > > @DavidL said:
    > > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...
    > >
    > > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?
    > >
    > > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.
    > >
    > > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.
    > >
    > > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?
    > >
    > > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.
    >
    > An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
    >
    > Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    I think the EU dislike him rather than dread him - but their position will be exactly as now. It's just pathetic that so many on here and in the party still fail to get it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708
    edited May 2019
    > @HYUFD said:
    > If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and he is not a committed No Dealer either.
    >
    > If not Boris it will likely be Raab, one of them will almost certainly have the MPs to get to the final 2 with the support of hard Brexiteers and all the Tory membership polling shows whichever of them does would then trounce Hunt or Javid and comfortably beat Gove, their likely opponents from the Remain and Mayite loyalist wings of the party. If Gove is the Leaver in the final 2 then the membership likely votes for him over Hunt or Javid too. Leadsom would have a chance if she got to the final two but at the moment she trails badly with MPs with Heather Wheeler her sole endorsement.
    >
    > On the latest ConHome numbers Hunt currently leads with MPs on 29, Boris and Gove are tied for second on 26, then Raab is third on 22 with the rest of the field some way back with Javid next on 14 and Hancock on 11.
    >
    > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html

    Latest Tory membership polling here too

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/05/next-tory-leader-run-offs-our-panels-support-hasnt-changed-they-want-johnson-followed-by-raab-gove-javid-and-hunt-in-that-order.html
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    > @DavidL said:
    >
    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?
    >

    I can't decide whether Johnson is the most likely recipient of transfers, as laggards are eliminated from the process, or if the size of the field points to such a severe weakness in the favourite that transfers will mostly find a different berth.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited May 2019
    Shami on R4 refusing to answer the question of which side Labour would support in the further referendum it is (almost) demanding. Not going to go down well with its members.

    Also refusing to say that she wants Alastair Campbell back as a member.

    She's a waste of space as an interviewee.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. B2, sounds about as sensible as Clegg's 2007 three-line whip abstention on the Lisbon Treaty because we needed a 'real' referendum on staying in or leaving the EU.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    I don't think the EU fear Boris because they respect him but because they have contempt for him, based on what they have seen of him as Foreign Secretary. Similarly with Raab.

    There is no solution to the Brexit conundrum unless some of May’s red lines are torn up. If the other options - a referendum or a GE - are ruled out then there are only 2: exit with No Deal on 31 October with insufficient preparation or ask for more time to prepare for a No deal exit.

    How any serious party could contemplate the former option beats me. But there is a fundamental lack of seriousness in British politics today so I suppose I should not be surprised.

    Incidentally, Ian Lavery’s comments in the Times today make it pretty obvious that Corbyn is not going to be changing his tune on Brexit.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    IanB2 said:

    Shami on R4 refusing to answer the question of which side Labour would support in the further referendum it is (almost) demanding. Not going to go down well with its members.



    Also refusing to say that she wants Alastair Campbell back as a member.



    She's a waste of space as an interviewee.

    You did not need the last 3 words in your final sentence.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    DavidL said:

    > @DavidL said:

    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    >

    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    >

    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    >

    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    >

    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    >

    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.



    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.



    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    Better than David Miliband? Are these really the standards we want to set? Really?
    It is bananas
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    > @DavidL said:

    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    >

    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    >

    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    >

    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    >

    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    >

    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.



    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.



    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    Why call him Boris when no other politician is known by first names? It has been cultivated to make him appear cuddly, harmless, one of us etc, etc. I noticed on Marr last Sunday they agreed it was wrong and tried with difficulty fo call him Johnson.
    The only other Tory I can think of who has managed that trick is Ruth. It is not a trick to be underestimated.
    It is about the only thing she has managed though David, apart from continually saying I am sending a message to Nicola "No Indyref2". She is like a broken record. Will she ever have a policy.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    Nice hatchet job job Ali. :D
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    > @IanB2 said:
    > Maybe those running against him are doing so to make their mark in the expectation of pulling out and backing him later and hoping for preferment? Just saying.
    >

    It's possible. Worth comparing to previous elections.

    In 2005 Wikipedia says there were initially 7 candidates, of which 3 withdrew before the first ballot of MPs. In 2016 Wikipedia says there were initially 9 candidates, of which 4 withdrew before the first ballot.

    So far we are up to 11 declared candidates, which doesn't look as exceptional a number as I had thought.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)

    So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,051
    felix said:

    > @MarqueeMark said:

    > > @DavidL said:

    > > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    > >

    > > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    > >

    > > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    > >

    > > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    > >

    > > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    > >

    > > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.

    >

    > An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

    >

    > Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...



    I think the EU dislike him rather than dread him - but their position will be exactly as now. It's just pathetic that so many on here and in the party still fail to get it.

    Consideing that one of the Brexiteer criticisms of the EU is that it is an inflexible unresponsive oligarchy, it does seem particularly delusional that they expect it to suddenly cave in when faced by a bit of British pluck.

    On the other hand, the whole business of Brexit is a farce, may as well have a clown in charge.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    edited May 2019
    nichomar said:

    > @DavidL said:

    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    >

    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    >

    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    >

    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    >

    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    >

    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.



    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.



    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    Why call him Boris when no other politician is known by first names? It has been cultivated to make him appear cuddly, harmless, one of us etc, etc. I noticed on Marr last Sunday they agreed it was wrong and tried with difficulty fo call him Johnson.
    I think it is also the combination of a slightly unusual first name and very common surname that encourages the use of “Boris”
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    > @HYUFD said:
    > > @HYUFD said:
    > > If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and he is not a committed No Dealer either.
    > >
    > > If not Boris it will likely be Raab, one of them will almost certainly have the MPs to get to the final 2 with the support of hard Brexiteers and all the Tory membership polling shows whichever of them does would then trounce Hunt or Javid and comfortably beat Gove, their likely opponents from the Remain and Mayite loyalist wings of the party. If Gove is the Leaver in the final 2 then the membership likely votes for him over Hunt or Javid too. Leadsom would have a chance if she got to the final two but at the moment she trails badly with MPs with Heather Wheeler her sole endorsement.
    > >
    > > On the latest ConHome numbers Hunt currently leads with MPs on 29, Boris and Gove are tied for second on 26, then Raab is third on 22 with the rest of the field some way back with Javid next on 14 and Hancock on 11.
    > >
    > > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
    >
    > Latest Tory membership polling here too
    >
    > https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/05/next-tory-leader-run-offs-our-panels-support-hasnt-changed-they-want-johnson-followed-by-raab-gove-javid-and-hunt-in-that-order.html

    Boris's trouble is the bulk of Tory MPs hate him. Not just dislike - actively hate. We have had three wasted years, firstly in appointing May to prevent Boris getting the job, then keeping May in place to stop Boris replacing her. There were MPs swigging champers to celebrate after May survived in December. How has that worked out, huh? How is the polling looking, eh? Actual election results?

    The Conservative Parliamentary Party has spent three years being bent all out of shape by Boris. Meanwhile, the membership looks to be a damned sight more politically astute than its MPs.

    The MPs trouble is that without at least putting Boris to the membership, then the Conservative Party is at a very severe risk of being supplanted by the Brexit Party. At least if the members decide that's who they want, the MPs can shrug their shoulders and say "Told yer...." But at least there will still be something worth fighting over, when it comes to his replacement.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    > @IanB2 said:
    > Shami on R4 refusing to answer the question of which side Labour would support in the further referendum it is (almost) demanding. Not going to go down well with its members.
    >
    > Also refusing to say that she wants Alastair Campbell back as a member.
    >
    > She's a waste of space as an interviewee.

    Well, one thing that puts me off the referendum demand from the People's Vote crowd is that they will instantly move on to demanding that we then pile in for Remain - as with all campaigns, it's dangerous to give a "There's no satisfying them!" impression. Campbell, to be fair, saw that and said that although that's what he'd like, he'd be perfectly happy if Labour were to endorse a referendum and then give members in effect a free vote.

    On topic, while it's demonstrably true (LabourList poll, overwhelmingly) that Labour members worry most about Boris, that's because many members think the election is in the bag if there's a mediocre Tory leader, as the Tories are simply worn out. Boris will clearly both enthuse and horrify, and it's essentially a roll of the dice. My own view is that nothing is in the bag in our chaotic political situation, and Boris is a risk for us but it might go either way. Our chances would be best with a lacklustre Tory leader feebly limping along. I wouldn't be rude enough to suggest who might fill that bill, but there are some options.

    But from the point of view of best for the country? Gove, obviously. Competent, intelligent, open-minded, a serious politician. Not photogenic and teachers hate him, but neither has been an insuperable bar to past Tory leaders (would you describe Hague, Howard or Major as cuties beloved by teachers?). I don't think he's marmite like Boris - people will in the end react well to competence.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    > @HYUFD said:
    > If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and is not a committed No Dealer either.
    >
    > If not Boris it will likely be Raab, one of them will almost certainly have the MPs to get to the final 2 with the support of hard Brexiteers and all the Tory membership polling shows whichever of them does would then trounce Hunt or Javid and comfortably beat Gove, their likely opponents from the Remain and Mayite loyalist wings of the party. If Gove is the Leaver in the final 2 then the membership likely votes for him over Hint or Javid too. Leadsom would have a chance if she got to the final two but at the moment she trails badly with MPs with Heather Wheeler her sole endorsement.
    >
    > On the latest ConHome numbers Hunt currently leads with MPs on 29, Boris and Gove are tied for second on 26, then Raab is third on 22 with the rest of the field some way back with Javid next on 14 and Hancock on 11.
    >
    > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html

    Boris may win but I would pose this question. The televised debates for all the candidates will put each one in front of the public and there will inevitably be polls conducted during and following the debates the results of which could show Boris, Raab, McVey and others as complete vote losers and one candidate rises spectacularly demonstrating they could not only beat Corbyn but win an election outright

    Do the members elect the absolute vote losers and ignore the winner, maybe even Rory
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2019
    > @DavidL said:
    > > @DavidL said:
    >
    > > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.
    >
    >
    >
    > An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
    >
    >
    >
    > Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...
    >
    > Better than David Miliband? Are these really the standards we want to set? Really?

    They're circling the wagons. That's all. Who can blame them!
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    > @MarqueeMark said:
    >
    > The MPs trouble is that without at least putting Boris to the membership, then the Conservative Party is at a very severe risk of being supplanted by the Brexit Party. At least if the members decide that's who they want, the MPs can shrug their shoulders and say "Told yer...." But at least there will still be something worth fighting over, when it comes to his replacement.
    >

    Wouldn't that be to repeat the success of Labour's experiment with Corbyn?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    > @MarqueeMark said:
    > > @DavidL said:
    > > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...
    > >
    > > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?
    > >
    > > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.
    > >
    > > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.
    > >
    > > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?
    > >
    > > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.
    >
    > An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
    >
    > Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    The EU "dreads" Boris as PM. Based on what exactly, ss far as I can see they see him as the buffoon that most of us do.

    The truly sad part of all this is that at this critical juncture the next PM is going to be chosen by the 0.2% of he population who are members of the Tory Party. Thank god for all our sakes that they at least had the wisdom to let the MPs whittle it down to 2 otherwise we'd be looking at PM Francois.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @GIN1138 said:

    "Nice hatchet job job Ali." :D

    ..........................................................

    Is the double "job" a not so subtle implication that Messr Meeks Meeks & Threadbare has done a political jobbie on Boris.

    Very Mark Oaten ....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    > @NickPalmer said:
    > > @IanB2 said:
    > > Shami on R4 refusing to answer the question of which side Labour would support in the further referendum it is (almost) demanding. Not going to go down well with its members.
    > >
    > > Also refusing to say that she wants Alastair Campbell back as a member.
    > >
    > > She's a waste of space as an interviewee.
    >
    > Well, one thing that puts me off the referendum demand from the People's Vote crowd is that they will instantly move on to demanding that we then pile in for Remain - as with all campaigns, it's dangerous to give a "There's no satisfying them!" impression. Campbell, to be fair, saw that and said that although that's what he'd like, he'd be perfectly happy if Labour were to endorse a referendum and then give members in effect a free vote.
    >
    > On topic, while it's demonstrably true (LabourList poll, overwhelmingly) that Labour members worry most about Boris, that's because many members think the election is in the bag if there's a mediocre Tory leader, as the Tories are simply worn out. Boris will clearly both enthuse and horrify, and it's essentially a roll of the dice. My own view is that nothing is in the bag in our chaotic political situation, and Boris is a risk for us but it might go either way. Our chances would be best with a lacklustre Tory leader feebly limping along. I wouldn't be rude enough to suggest who might fill that bill, but there are some options.
    >
    > But from the point of view of best for the country? Gove, obviously. Competent, intelligent, open-minded, a serious politician. Not photogenic and teachers hate him, but neither has been an insuperable bar to past Tory leaders (would you describe Hague, Howard or Major as cuties beloved by teachers?). I don't think he's marmite like Boris - people will in the end react well to competence.

    A very fair comment piece Nick and I agree that Gove would also be my choice
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    > @GIN1138 said:
    > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)
    >
    > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D

    The whole thing is an utter nonsense
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited May 2019
    JohnLoony said:

    Boris is an untrustworthy incapable careerist and opportunist, and I have always believed that he will not be in the two final candidates selected by MPs.

    Well he fears that hence the whinges from various quarters that he must be allowed through or the membership will go nuts.

    If he doesnt get through i hope whoever wins does not make the May mistake of giving him a top job. It didn't keep him on side and was pointless.

    But some people really like him, he still rides on the successes he had years ago, so would probably win if he does get through.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    I see that the Daily Express has become the Daily Esther.

    Clearly they don’t think Bozo is the person to lead the country.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    > @SandyRentool said:
    > I see that the Daily Express has become the Daily Esther.
    >
    > Clearly they don’t think Bozo is the person to lead the country.

    I would suggest the vast majority of the country does not think he is the person to lead the country
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    > @SandyRentool said:
    > I see that the Daily Express has become the Daily Esther.
    >
    > Clearly they don’t think Bozo is the person to lead the country.

    I’m an Esther investor.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    > @HYUFD said:

    > > @HYUFD said:

    > > If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and he is not a committed No Dealer either.

    > >

    > > If not Boris it will likely be Raab, one of them will almost certainly have the MPs to get to the final 2 with the support of hard Brexiteers and all the Tory membership polling shows whichever of them does would then trounce Hunt or Javid and comfortably beat Gove, their likely opponents from the Remain and Mayite loyalist wings of the party. If Gove is the Leaver in the final 2 then the membership likely votes for him over Hunt or Javid too. Leadsom would have a chance if she got to the final two but at the moment she trails badly with MPs with Heather Wheeler her sole endorsement.

    > >

    > > On the latest ConHome numbers Hunt currently leads with MPs on 29, Boris and Gove are tied for second on 26, then Raab is third on 22 with the rest of the field some way back with Javid next on 14 and Hancock on 11.

    > >

    > > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html

    >

    > Latest t-order.html



    Boris's trouble is the bulk of Tory MPs hate him. Not just dislike - actively hate. We have sults?




    The MPs trouble is that without at least putting Boris to the membership, then the Conservative Party is at a very severe risk of being supplanted by the Brexit Party

    If that is true the battle is already lost. What is the party even here for if they would be supplanted if they refuse to back one particular candidate, a candidate who is not even the best embodiment of the Brexit Party policy?

    If a single person of no particular fixed belief is all that will prevent being supplanted, then the party is already dead.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340

    > @HYUFD said:

    > If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and is not a committed No Dealer either.

    >

    > If not Boris it will likely be Raab, one of them will almost certainly have the MPs to get to the final 2 with the support of hard Brexiteers and all the Tory membership polling shows whichever of them does would then trounce Hunt or Javid and comfortably beat Gove, their likely opponents from the Remain and Mayite loyalist wings of the party. If Gove is the Leaver in the final 2 then the membership likely votes for him over Hint or Javid too. Leadsom would have a chance if she got to the final two but at the moment she trails badly with MPs with Heather Wheeler her sole endorsement.

    >

    > On the latest ConHome numbers Hunt currently leads with MPs on 29, Boris and Gove are tied for second on 26, then Raab is third on 22 with the rest of the field some way back with Javid next on 14 and Hancock on 11.

    >

    > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html



    Boris may win but I would pose this question. The televised debates for all the candidates will put each one in front of the public and there will inevitably be polls conducted during and following the debates the results of which could show Boris, Raab, McVey and others as complete vote losers and one candidate rises spectacularly demonstrating they could not only beat Corbyn but win an election outright



    Do the members elect the absolute vote losers and ignore the winner, maybe even Rory

    We’re talking about the membership that selected Iain Duncan Smith.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest

    Edges us another notch up the October general election ladder...
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    edited May 2019

    Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest

    Hammond is the hero we need. Boris is the hero we will get.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Boris could be a Romney - the electorate gives everyone else a good look in the hope of an alternative, but ultimately he is the last man standing
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited May 2019

    I see that the Daily Express has become the Daily Esther.



    Clearly they don’t think Bozo is the person to lead the country.

    The traitors, dont they know only Boris can save the country? The party will fall without him, all the rules and personal judgement must be abandoned so he can become leader.

    Hes not entitled though.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    > @Freggles said:
    > Boris could be a Romney - the electorate gives everyone else a good look in the hope of an alternative, but ultimately he is the last man standing

    That is the risk. But the MPs seem determined to explore the alternatives very thoroughly.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,008
    Surely Johnson's USP is that everyone refers to him by his first name.

    To avoid misunderstanding, I'm not making a joke.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    nichomar said:

    > @DavidL said:

    > On topic I am not so sure. Boris has been all over the place on Brexit, he was an appalling Foreign Secretary, he is gaffe prone, not particularly moral and not as good at building alliances as you might expect and yet...

    >

    > 1. He can only be measured against the field. One of these numpties is our next PM. Who has the better claim?

    >

    > 2. He can legitimately claim to be a proven winner. Both as Mayor of London (twice) and as leader of the Vote Leave campaign he brought off unlikely victories against the odds. An unlikely victory against the odds is exactly what the Tories need for the next GE.

    >

    > 3. He is clever and colourful, always good copy for journalists. He used to be very amusing, but is less so now.

    >

    > 4. There are a lot of Indians in the race at the moment but who are they most likely to put their weight behind when faced with their inevitable elimination?

    >

    > Personally, I would rather have Rory but he has no chance. I would rather have Gove but he is every bit as marmite as Boris. I thought Javid would be a stronger candidate than he has been to date. I would rather have Hunt but I seriously doubt that the party will accept another converted remainer after the May experience. I repeat, someone has to win. Boris is a genuine contender and in my view is probably correctly the favourite, even if his odds seem short.



    An appalling foreign Secretary? Better than David Miliband. He did secure a co-ordinated international response to the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury. And I note his successor and fellow candidate has not managed to come back from Tehran with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.



    Boris is also the PM the EU dreads. They clearly had no dread of PM May - and look how that turned out...

    Why call him Boris when no other politician is known by first names? It has been cultivated to make him appear cuddly, harmless, one of us etc, etc. I noticed on Marr last Sunday they agreed it was wrong and tried with difficulty fo call him Johnson.
    Wasn't there a story years ago that Livingstones office had a swear jar arrangement to try to stop themselves calling Boris by his first name?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    > @kle4 said:
    > Boris is an untrustworthy incapable careerist and opportunist, and I have always believed that he will not be in the two final candidates selected by MPs.
    >
    > Well he fears that hence the whinges from various quarters that he must be allowed through or the membership will go nuts.
    >
    > If he doesnt get through i hope whoever wins does not make the May mistake of giving him a top job. It didn't keep him on side and was pointless.
    >
    > But some people really like him, he still rides on the successes he had years ago, so would probably win if he does get through.

    The way to get rid of him is to call an early election. There may of course be some collateral damage...
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > @GIN1138 said:
    > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)
    > >
    > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D
    >
    > The whole thing is an utter nonsense

    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > @GIN1138 said:
    > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)
    > >
    > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D
    >
    > The whole thing is an utter nonsense

    Nope the whole thing is because politicians have taken what was a legitimate exclusion from advertising laws (because a manifesto is a set of things that may or may not occur and campaigns are as much focusing on a viewpoint rather than anything else) and extended it to the point that they now state completely inaccurate statements as fact.

    It's that latter bit that I believe is the reason behind the court case and personally I don't see the harm in insisting that where facts are actual politicians can't lie about them.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    > @GIN1138 said:
    > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest
    >
    > Edges us another notch up the October general election ladder...

    I've actually been laying an October general election. It's 6.8 on betfair which seems very short for such a small timescale.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    GIN1138 said:

    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:

    > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest



    Edges us another notch up the October general election ladder...

    And just helps Boris and co more - a 'villain' for them to rally members against
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    > @kle4 said:
    > Boris is an untrustworthy incapable careerist and opportunist, and I have always believed that he will not be in the two final candidates selected by MPs.
    >
    > Well he fears that hence the whinges from various quarters that he must be allowed through or the membership will go nuts.
    >
    > If he doesnt get through i hope whoever wins does not make the May mistake of giving him a top job. It didn't keep him on side and was pointless.
    >
    > But some people really like him, he still rides on the successes he had years ago, so would probably win if he does get through.

    We are choosing the PM at a critical juncture in our history - frankly I couldn't't care less if the membership "go nuts" if Johnson is seen as not up to it by his own MPs and kept off the ballot.

    As far as "going nuts" is concerned I wouldn't have thought many of them would have far to travel.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    eek said:

    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:

    > > @GIN1138 said:

    > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)

    > >

    > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D

    >

    > The whole thing is an utter nonsense



    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:

    > > @GIN1138 said:

    > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)

    > >

    > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D

    >

    > The whole thing is an utter nonsense



    Nope the whole thing is because politicians have taken what was a legitimate exclusion from advertising laws (because a manifesto is a set of things that may or may not occur and campaigns are as much focusing on a viewpoint rather than anything else) and extended it to the point that they now state completely inaccurate statements as fact.



    It's that latter bit that I believe is the reason behind the court case and personally I don't see the harm in insisting that where facts are actual politicians can't lie about them.

    The silly thing here is that if VoteLevae had just used the net figure of ~£250m a week the slogan would likely have been just as effective and avoided this whole issue.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    OllyT said:

    > @kle4 said:

    > Boris is an untrustworthy incapable careerist and opportunist, and I have always believed that he will not be in the two final candidates selected by MPs.

    >

    > Well he fears that hence the whinges from various quarters that he must be allowed through or the membership will go nuts.

    >

    > If he doesnt get through i hope whoever wins does not make the May mistake of giving him a top job. It didn't keep him on side and was pointless.

    >

    > But some people really like him, he still rides on the successes he had years ago, so would probably win if he does get through.



    We are choosing the PM at a critical juncture in our history - frankly I couldn't't care less if the membership "go nuts" if Johnson is seen as not up to it by his own MPs and kept off the ballot.



    As far as "going nuts" is concerned I wouldn't have thought many of them would have far to travel.

    I dont disagree with your first point, especially as the whole point of the process is to not let through candidates who mps cannot back, but a lot of MPs are cowards, and they are desperate - if they think it splits
    The party further not to let him through they'll let him.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    > @not_on_fire said:
    > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    >
    > > > @GIN1138 said:
    >
    > > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)
    >
    > > >
    >
    > > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D
    >
    > >
    >
    > > The whole thing is an utter nonsense
    >
    >
    >
    > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    >
    > > > @GIN1138 said:
    >
    > > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)
    >
    > > >
    >
    > > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D
    >
    > >
    >
    > > The whole thing is an utter nonsense
    >
    >
    >
    > Nope the whole thing is because politicians have taken what was a legitimate exclusion from advertising laws (because a manifesto is a set of things that may or may not occur and campaigns are as much focusing on a viewpoint rather than anything else) and extended it to the point that they now state completely inaccurate statements as fact.
    >
    >
    >
    > It's that latter bit that I believe is the reason behind the court case and personally I don't see the harm in insisting that where facts are actual politicians can't lie about them.
    >
    > The silly thing here is that if VoteLevae had just used the net figure of ~£250m a week the slogan would likely have been just as effective and avoided this whole issue.

    You’re immediately going to walk into the other half of Leavers’ argument. They simultaneously believe that the lie was brilliantly clever and that lying should be consequence-free.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest

    I know he muted this last Sunday but has he spoken further since about it?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,008
    > @eek said:
    > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > > @GIN1138 said:
    > > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)
    > > >
    > > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D
    > >
    > > The whole thing is an utter nonsense
    >
    > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > > @GIN1138 said:
    > > > Newsnight seemed to imply that Boris wouldn't be appearing in court until after the leadership election (felt like late Summer/early Autumn was probable timeline)
    > > >
    > > > So if Boris does get the leadership we could see the Prime Minister going to court and taking the witness stand which would be somewhat unusual.... :D
    > >
    > > The whole thing is an utter nonsense
    >
    > Nope the whole thing is because politicians have taken what was a legitimate exclusion from advertising laws (because a manifesto is a set of things that may or may not occur and campaigns are as much focusing on a viewpoint rather than anything else) and extended it to the point that they now state completely inaccurate statements as fact.
    >
    > It's that latter bit that I believe is the reason behind the court case and personally I don't see the harm in insisting that where facts are actual politicians can't lie about them.

    Surely people can't be suggesting that the same laws should apply to politicians as to the rest of us?

    Outrageous!
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    nico67 said:

    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:

    > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest



    I know he muted this last Sunday but has he spoken further since about it?

    Are you expected him to have joined the Brexit Party since then or something?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,442
    > @MarqueeMark said:
    > > @HYUFD said:
    > > > @HYUFD said:
    > > > If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and he is not a committed No Dealer either.
    > > >
    > > > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
    > >
    > > Latest Tory membership polling here too
    > >
    > > https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/05/next-tory-leader-run-offs-our-panels-support-hasnt-changed-they-want-johnson-followed-by-raab-gove-javid-and-hunt-in-that-order.html
    >
    > Boris's trouble is the bulk of Tory MPs hate him. Not just dislike - actively hate. We have had three wasted years, firstly in appointing May to prevent Boris getting the job, then keeping May in place to stop Boris replacing her. There were MPs swigging champers to celebrate after May survived in December. How has that worked out, huh? How is the polling looking, eh? Actual election results?
    >
    >
    >

    It will be interesting if any of the contenders will promise to re-introduce party discipline to the parliamentary party and what boundaries they would tolerate within it.

    It is obviously fraught with difficulty, but it is clearly part of the problem that different wings of the party are allowed to operate as independent parties and campaign openly against the government.

    It is a possible differentiator for the likes of McVey who could say Hammond et al will be kicked out if they do not promise to support her on every VONC rather than waiting til it happens to split. That path obviously leads to the end of the government and possibly even Corbyn, not sure how it would play with the members, reading ConHome they would be delighted.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    > @nico67 said:
    > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest
    >
    > I know he muted this last Sunday but has he spoken further since about it?

    Yes, clearly and unequivocally today on Sky.

    He will vonc a no deal PM which should give us the shortest time in Office in recent history.

    Hello Esther, Goodbye Esther
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    > @OblitusSumMe said:
    > Suppose all of the declared candidates, and perhaps a few more, are in the first MPs ballot.
    >
    > How many votes will the first-placed candidate receive?

    About 50.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    At the moment, it is parliament that needs to be convinced of the need for Brexit.

    So why make the PM a man whose support in parliament is not his strength?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    > @noneoftheabove said:
    > > @MarqueeMark said:
    > > > @HYUFD said:
    > > > > @HYUFD said:
    > > > > If the Tories want to win a majority against Corbyn Boris remains by far their best bet, he has more charisma than the rest of the field put together and polling shows he is the candidate who would win back the most voters from the Brexit Party and increase the Tory voteshare the most. He is a Leaver committed to leaving the EU but not as hardline as say Baker or McVey as he voted for the Withdrawal Agreement on MV3 and he is not a committed No Dealer either.
    > > > >
    > > > > https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/05/leadership-election-candidate-support-numbers-hunt-27-johnson-19-raab-13-gove-12-javid-10.html
    > > >
    > > > Latest Tory membership polling here too
    > > >
    > > > https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/05/next-tory-leader-run-offs-our-panels-support-hasnt-changed-they-want-johnson-followed-by-raab-gove-javid-and-hunt-in-that-order.html
    > >
    > > Boris's trouble is the bulk of Tory MPs hate him. Not just dislike - actively hate. We have had three wasted years, firstly in appointing May to prevent Boris getting the job, then keeping May in place to stop Boris replacing her. There were MPs swigging champers to celebrate after May survived in December. How has that worked out, huh? How is the polling looking, eh? Actual election results?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    > It will be interesting if any of the contenders will promise to re-introduce party discipline to the parliamentary party and what boundaries they would tolerate within it.
    >
    > It is obviously fraught with difficulty, but it is clearly part of the problem that different wings of the party are allowed to operate as independent parties and campaign openly against the government.
    >
    > It is a possible differentiator for the likes of McVey who could say Hammond et al will be kicked out if they do not promise to support her on every VONC rather than waiting til it happens to split. That path obviously leads to the end of the government and possibly even Corbyn, not sure how it would play with the members, reading ConHome they would be delighted.

    No Deal isn't a manifesto commitment - which would make forcing it through awkward.
    Equally while you really shouldn't VONC your new leader its not as if you've campaigned for your seat with that leader as the leader of the party.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    > @Black_Rook said:
    > I think this contest, as crowded as the field is at the moment, could well end in another coronation.
    >
    > If the final two aren't both equally hardline on Brexit, then the more pragmatic contender could easily conclude that they have no chance in the membership ballot and withdraw in favour of their opponent, presumably in exchange for a senior cabinet role. A coronation would also have the considerable advantage of getting the new leader in place and Mrs May packed off back to Berkshire as rapidly as possible.
    >
    > Leadsom as PM and Gove as Chancellor, perhaps?

    I don't think another coronation is tenable.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    rkrkrk said:

    > @GIN1138 said:

    > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:

    > > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest

    >

    > Edges us another notch up the October general election ladder...



    I've actually been laying an October general election. It's 6.8 on betfair which seems very short for such a small timescale.

    2019 election is 3.4 to back (3.65 to lay) at the moment, which I think might have some value. There’s going to be another crunch in October whatever happens, and it it quite possible that an election is the only way to solve the impasse.

    Alternatively Lewis Hamilton is 1.25 for the F1 Drivers’ championship, which at this point is pretty much betting against him getting injured. Pays out no later than November.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,442
    > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > @nico67 said:
    > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    > > > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest
    > >
    > > I know he muted this last Sunday but has he spoken further since about it?
    >
    > Yes, clearly and unequivocally today on Sky.
    >
    > He will vonc a no deal PM which should give us the shortest time in Office in recent history.
    >
    > Hello Esther, Goodbye Esther

    I would guess she would still have first dibs on proposing the PM as leader of the biggest party, if she could not be PM herself? Would she try and appoint someone (Gove, Javid?) she can work with and could command a commons majority? Then Corbyn would try and fail. Then the Letwin et al gang could try which would lead to revoke/a very long extension and a GE.

    Farage would be delighted.
  • GreenHeronGreenHeron Posts: 148
    At this particular time, I look for only one criterion in the next Tory leader - that he/she is able to win the next election. I regard the Corbyn/Milne/McDonnell/Momentum dominated labour party a huge risk to the prosperity of the country - far more than any kind of Brexit - and I do not want to see Farage become the electoral choice of those on the right.

    And it is this that will lead to Corbyn, as it will split the usual core tory vote thus handing a majority to Corbyn that I do not believe he could otherwise achieve.

    Therefore, however unpalatable this may sound, the new leader needs to bring the more moderate right back into the tory stable. As the last elections have just demonstrated this is not a small fringe, it is a third of the country, and if all could be persuaded to vote, maybe even enough to win an election on their own. So far, the attitude of many on the "centrist" wing of the conservative party is either to pretend that this group doesn't exist, or to attempt to stick every single one of them in a box named "racist" or "xenophobic". As we have seen in the USA this will only serve to make the voters angrier and more determined.

    If Boris manages to make it through this contest then he will have demonstrated many of the capabilities required, as he will have everything thrown at him during this process - from his own side, from the media, and even from mendacious court cases. I think there is a good chance that he will withdraw as a result of the above, but if he makes it through sufficiently unscathed to get through to the final 2, I would be confident he is the right man for the job. Despite his weaknesses, he is a fairly centrist politician but one who can bring the right on board and someone who might be able to sell an unpalatable solution on Brexit if needed. Most importantly, he is a winner. Two mayoral elections in a labour city and the Brexit referendum is already a good CV, and if he wins this contest that will be four notable achievements, enough to give me.confidence that he can defeat the far left and the far right, which at the moment for me trumps ideological purity.
  • EmptyNesterEmptyNester Posts: 91
    Fans of Rory Stewart may be interested to note he is on Question Time tonight. Compare and contrast with fellow panellist Barry Gardiner.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,442
    > @Sandpit said:
    > > @GIN1138 said:
    >
    > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
    >
    > > > Hammond fires broadside on no dealers confirming he will vote against the government in a vonc on no deal in the national interest
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Edges us another notch up the October general election ladder...
    >
    >
    >
    > I've actually been laying an October general election. It's 6.8 on betfair which seems very short for such a small timescale.
    >
    > 2019 election is 3.4 to back (3.65 to lay) at the moment, which I think might have some value. There’s going to be another crunch in October whatever happens, and it it quite possible that an election is the only way to solve the impasse.
    >

    In theory a GE does sound like a good way past the impasse but in practical terms it is very likely to be another hung parliament across both party and Brexit resolution lines. Nothing will change.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    > @EmptyNester said:
    > Fans of Rory Stewart may be interested to note he is on Question Time tonight. Compare and contrast with fellow panellist Barry Gardiner.

    Practically a standup show, that is.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    > @not_on_fire said:

    > Do the members elect the absolute vote losers and ignore the winner, maybe even Rory
    >
    > We’re talking about the membership that selected Iain Duncan Smith.

    There's probably been some turnover in Membership since then ...
This discussion has been closed.