> @MattW said: > > @Stark_Dawning said: > > > @oxfordsimon said: > > > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news: > > > > > > > > > > The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins. > > > > > > I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant. > > > > > > I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers' > > > > > > It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury. > > > > > > Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes > > > Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted. > > > > > > The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations. > > > > > > > > > > A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself. > > It's not barring songs that is the issue here - it is whether this particular song constitutes incitement or not. The video is an alleged "parody" of canvassers going round killing people who turn out to be Tories, and who are then awarded points as in a video game. > > One of the ironies is that the stats flashed up to demonise Tories have mainly been long-exposed as dodgy or fraudulent. The "Tory Scum" rhetoric has been stock-in-trade of leftists and some SNP campaigners for years, if not decades. The new bit is perhaps the "Kill" reaching the mainstream. > > The one that concerned me was the attack on the Charity Worker at the (organised by Corbyn-fans, radicals - pick your word) demo about the Grenfell Tower fire, after one idiot told another idiot that he was a Tory. > https://metro.co.uk/2017/06/19/council-worker-beaten-by-protesters-was-actually-volunteer-who-helped-grenfell-victims-6719520/ > > Since it requires self-certification as 18+ on Youtube and logging in, I think it is probably OK to link from here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGYzZ7sNvY
It's actually quite good. Very much in the great British tradition of OTT Pythonesque silliness.
> @NickPalmer said: > > @kinabalu said: > > What do you think of universal basic income? > > I quite like the idea if like the national pension it's pitched at survivability level rather than comfort level. The concept that you should be able to fail, get by for a while without tons of bureaucracy and then try again is pretty attractive. Obviously the converse is that we don't have as many tax breaks and/or the rates go up.
I can't make my mind up. It's either a fantastic idea that simply has to happen - and therefore will - or it's utopian first world delusional thinking which ignores the brutal facts of life. Or to put it more Trumply - it's a GREAT idea or if not it's a TERRIBLE idea.
In Austria Kurz's OVP is currently polling 38%, well up on the 31.5% it got last time and he is miles ahead as preferred Chancellor so hard to see him going anywhere after the election in September, indeed SPO and Greens combined only get to 31%
You've misunderstood my comment. The issue is whether Kurz and the OVP would be willing to deal with coalition partners other than the Freedom Party or the SPD.
Up to now, the options have been a coalition of OVP and Freedom or OVP and SPD. With both NEOS and the Greens moving up in the polls it may be other options will become possible but is Kurz practical or flexible enough to consider these options?
Last time the three main parties won 165 of the 183 seats with 84.5% of the vote. IF FPO and SPD are falling sharply (and Nick P's point on party loyalty across Europe is interesting), we may see other parties in the mix. NEOS won 10 seats last time on 5.3%.
IF the OVP advances to 70+ seats and NEOS gets 20 or more, that's a viable coalition. I agree there's no possible Government not involving the OVP - we can all see that.
My question is Kurz may have four options if he gets over 70 seats next time:
1) go back to the diminished FPO 2) go to the diminished SPD 3) govern as a minority. 4) seek a deal with NEOS
What do you think he should do - what do you think he will do?
> @stodge said: > In Austria Kurz's OVP is currently polling 38%, well up on the 31.5% it got last time and he is miles ahead as preferred Chancellor so hard to see him going anywhere after the election in September, indeed SPO and Greens combined only get to 31% > > You've misunderstood my comment. The issue is whether Kurz and the OVP would be willing to deal with coalition partners other than the Freedom Party or the SPD. > > Up to now, the options have been a coalition of OVP and Freedom or OVP and SPD. With both NEOS and the Greens moving up in the polls it may be other options will become possible but is Kurz practical or flexible enough to consider these options? > > Last time the three main parties won 165 of the 183 seats with 84.5% of the vote. IF FPO and SPD are falling sharply (and Nick P's point on party loyalty across Europe is interesting), we may see other parties in the mix. NEOS won 10 seats last time on 5.3%. > > IF the OVP advances to 70+ seats and NEOS gets 20 or more, that's a viable coalition. I agree there's no possible Government not involving the OVP - we can all see that. > > My question is Kurz may have four options if he gets over 70 seats next time: > > 1) go back to the diminished FPO > 2) go to the diminished SPD > 3) govern as a minority. > 4) seek a deal with NEOS > > What do you think he should do - what do you think he will do?
3 I suspect unless he wins a majority, given OVP has more than the SPD and Greens combined in the polls and the centre left will not touch the FPO with a bargepole.
Otherwise possibly 4 as NEOS are a liberal not centre left party
> @HYUFD said: > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > Mr. Palmer, hasn't universal basic income been tried (and failed) in Finland? > 'Failed' may be a bit strong, it did not lead to any rise in employment levels but did leave people happier and less stressed apparently. > > However due to expense it would only really be an option if AI led to long periods of unemployment for a large proportion of the population and would have to be funded by a robot tax. > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47169549 >
I think you're missing the point - it's a simplification of the system. Everyone gets a basic share of the state income, and everyone pays tax equally on everything they earn elsewhere. If done correctly it promotes small government.
The only downside is the perceived sense of obligation of the state to the individual - the whole 'rights' thing. (A very ugly concept)
> On the Lib Dem race as we know Jo Swinson is the overwhelming favourite but for me although likeable as always she did come across as slightly lightweight on Marr this morning.
-------
Unfortunately there's something a bit Vicky Pollard about her speech patterns.
3) I suspect unless he wins a majority, given OVP has more than the SPD and Greens combined in the polls and the centre left will not touch the FPO with a bargepole.
Otherwise possibly 4 as NEOS are a liberal not centre left party
Just to catch up, Kurz is no longer Chancellor though he still leads the OVP. Austria will have its first female Chancellor tomorrow with the swearing-in of Birgitte Bierlein who will take the country through to the elections due in September.
I also wonder whether with the antics over the sacking of Kickl, there is now a rift between the OVP and FPO which won't be settled easily or may have to se settled with Kurz having to step down completely. I do wonder if Kurz has overplayed his hand here.
Hence I'm inclined to agree the OVP will be hoping their numbers end up close to a majority. I suspect Kurz may find NEOS fairly unpalatable as well which I suppose raises the question of whether a non-OVP Government might yet emerge - led by the SPD but tacitly supported by the FPO as a snub to Kurz.
It's not just here it'll be an interesting summer politically.
Comments
> > @Stark_Dawning said:
> > > @oxfordsimon said:
> > > > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > > > Meanwhile, in kinder, gentler news:
> > > >
> > >
> > > The question is where art/satire ends and incitement begins.
> > >
> > > I find that sort of lyric and intent distasteful. As I would if it were Kill Labour Scum or any such variant.
> > >
> > > I know there are those in 'popular music' who like to appear edgy - but this is just hate-filled, infantile behaviour on the part of the 'music makers'
> > >
> > > It doesn't reflect well on Glastonbury.
> > >
> > > Do they have a right to hold these views in private? Yes
> > > Do they have a right to express these views in public? Yes - unless it breaks the laws on incitement to violence. And I am not expert enough to know for certain one way or the other. If they were standing up making a speech to this effect, I would say that there could be a case to answer. Singing does not make the words any different in terms of meaning, and I would say probably also intent. So perhaps this does count as incitement and thus should not be permitted.
> > >
> > > The theatremaker in me is all for being provocative and challenging. But there are necessary limits that have to be applied in serious situations.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > A society that bans certain songs is far, far more frightening than the song could ever be itself.
>
> It's not barring songs that is the issue here - it is whether this particular song constitutes incitement or not. The video is an alleged "parody" of canvassers going round killing people who turn out to be Tories, and who are then awarded points as in a video game.
>
> One of the ironies is that the stats flashed up to demonise Tories have mainly been long-exposed as dodgy or fraudulent. The "Tory Scum" rhetoric has been stock-in-trade of leftists and some SNP campaigners for years, if not decades. The new bit is perhaps the "Kill" reaching the mainstream.
>
> The one that concerned me was the attack on the Charity Worker at the (organised by Corbyn-fans, radicals - pick your word) demo about the Grenfell Tower fire, after one idiot told another idiot that he was a Tory.
> https://metro.co.uk/2017/06/19/council-worker-beaten-by-protesters-was-actually-volunteer-who-helped-grenfell-victims-6719520/
>
> Since it requires self-certification as 18+ on Youtube and logging in, I think it is probably OK to link from here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGYzZ7sNvY
It's actually quite good. Very much in the great British tradition of OTT Pythonesque silliness.
> > @kinabalu said:
> > What do you think of universal basic income?
>
> I quite like the idea if like the national pension it's pitched at survivability level rather than comfort level. The concept that you should be able to fail, get by for a while without tons of bureaucracy and then try again is pretty attractive. Obviously the converse is that we don't have as many tax breaks and/or the rates go up.
I can't make my mind up. It's either a fantastic idea that simply has to happen - and therefore will - or it's utopian first world delusional thinking which ignores the brutal facts of life. Or to put it more Trumply - it's a GREAT idea or if not it's a TERRIBLE idea.
Slightly inclined towards the former.
Up to now, the options have been a coalition of OVP and Freedom or OVP and SPD. With both NEOS and the Greens moving up in the polls it may be other options will become possible but is Kurz practical or flexible enough to consider these options?
Last time the three main parties won 165 of the 183 seats with 84.5% of the vote. IF FPO and SPD are falling sharply (and Nick P's point on party loyalty across Europe is interesting), we may see other parties in the mix. NEOS won 10 seats last time on 5.3%.
IF the OVP advances to 70+ seats and NEOS gets 20 or more, that's a viable coalition. I agree there's no possible Government not involving the OVP - we can all see that.
My question is Kurz may have four options if he gets over 70 seats next time:
1) go back to the diminished FPO
2) go to the diminished SPD
3) govern as a minority.
4) seek a deal with NEOS
What do you think he should do - what do you think he will do?
> In Austria Kurz's OVP is currently polling 38%, well up on the 31.5% it got last time and he is miles ahead as preferred Chancellor so hard to see him going anywhere after the election in September, indeed SPO and Greens combined only get to 31%
>
> You've misunderstood my comment. The issue is whether Kurz and the OVP would be willing to deal with coalition partners other than the Freedom Party or the SPD.
>
> Up to now, the options have been a coalition of OVP and Freedom or OVP and SPD. With both NEOS and the Greens moving up in the polls it may be other options will become possible but is Kurz practical or flexible enough to consider these options?
>
> Last time the three main parties won 165 of the 183 seats with 84.5% of the vote. IF FPO and SPD are falling sharply (and Nick P's point on party loyalty across Europe is interesting), we may see other parties in the mix. NEOS won 10 seats last time on 5.3%.
>
> IF the OVP advances to 70+ seats and NEOS gets 20 or more, that's a viable coalition. I agree there's no possible Government not involving the OVP - we can all see that.
>
> My question is Kurz may have four options if he gets over 70 seats next time:
>
> 1) go back to the diminished FPO
> 2) go to the diminished SPD
> 3) govern as a minority.
> 4) seek a deal with NEOS
>
> What do you think he should do - what do you think he will do?
3 I suspect unless he wins a majority, given OVP has more than the SPD and Greens combined in the polls and the centre left will not touch the FPO with a bargepole.
Otherwise possibly 4 as NEOS are a liberal not centre left party
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > Mr. Palmer, hasn't universal basic income been tried (and failed) in Finland?
> 'Failed' may be a bit strong, it did not lead to any rise in employment levels but did leave people happier and less stressed apparently.
>
> However due to expense it would only really be an option if AI led to long periods of unemployment for a large proportion of the population and would have to be funded by a robot tax.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47169549
>
I think you're missing the point - it's a simplification of the system. Everyone gets a basic share of the state income, and everyone pays tax equally on everything they earn elsewhere. If done correctly it promotes small government.
The only downside is the perceived sense of obligation of the state to the individual - the whole 'rights' thing. (A very ugly concept)
I also wonder whether with the antics over the sacking of Kickl, there is now a rift between the OVP and FPO which won't be settled easily or may have to se settled with Kurz having to step down completely. I do wonder if Kurz has overplayed his hand here.
Hence I'm inclined to agree the OVP will be hoping their numbers end up close to a majority. I suspect Kurz may find NEOS fairly unpalatable as well which I suppose raises the question of whether a non-OVP Government might yet emerge - led by the SPD but tacitly supported by the FPO as a snub to Kurz.
It's not just here it'll be an interesting summer politically.
>
>
> Unfortunately there's something a bit Vicky Pollard about her speech patterns.
>
> Bristol isn't in Scotland!
I didn't say her accent. Listen carefully to her intonation.