Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Michael Gove – the case against

1356

Comments

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,828
    > @Scott_P said:
    >

    Tory politician sez Labour politician is shit shock
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 5,514
    > @JosiasJessop said:
    > Off-topic:
    >
    > Getting away from politics for a minute, here's a quite wonderful story about how one of the missing Lewis chess pieces had been rediscovered:
    >
    > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48494885

    Lovely story - thanks for sharing. Echoes of Del and Rodney striking it rich.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 5,406
    Interesting and informative header.Thank you.

    I think the silver bullet for state schools is to abolish the private opt out.

    Gove does have his flaws - and plenty of them - but he is for me the best choice for the current circumstances.

    IMO he has the potential to be the best PM since Brown.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,634
    edited June 3
    > @Scott_P said:
    >


    But, but, but I thought in Rees-Mogg world we were supposed to respect the office, not the man?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 36,659
    I bet queenie is really looking forward to today....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,780
    Well, I have just been retweeted by Stephen Fry via OGH. Feels like some sort of honour, being retweeted by OGH. :)

    I hope Trump behaves himself when he is with HMQ. He was pretty ill-mannered last time walking in front of her. It was an ungentlemanly way of behaving to any old lady let alone our Head of State.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,591
    > @IanB2 said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > >
    >
    > Believe in the bin.

    Loathsome man but a much better effort than Gove. Definitely had some professional help. He didn't make the mistakes Gove did in talking about his 'achievements' other than as small asides. I just wonder whether those who don't like him will like him any better? Probably not but 7.5/10
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,723
    Mr. kinabalu, do you mean abolishing the private sector in education?

    If so, then, as well as destroying many good schools, you'd increase the workload on the state sector without increasing its resources.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,591
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,634
    > @FrancisUrquhart said:
    > I bet queenie is really looking forward to today....


    Prince Harry doing a Fuzz Townsend in Trump's glass of whatever gloopy concoction he insists on drinking?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,606
    > @Roger said:
    > > @Alanbrooke said:
    > > > @Charles said:
    > > > Off topic, I live in a small Hampshire market town and some climate extinction event banners have appeared on the railings of the main park over the weekend, clearly painted by primary school children.
    > > >
    > > > You need the permission of the town council to do that (which has just turned Lib Dem) so that fits.
    > > >
    > > > I have no idea how long they will be there for but yet another example of the creeping politicisation of everyday life.
    > > >
    > > > At my daughters school pupils are being given time off to rally against trump
    > > >
    > > > Would they have been given the same time off for Xi’s visit? It looks likely that the next major flashpoint will be the PRC invading* Taiwan.
    > > >
    > > > *They would say reunification but that rarely comes under threat of nuclear annahailation and is generally taken to be a two way process.
    > > >
    > > > No
    > > >
    > > > My daughter is upset that because Trump is staying at Winfield House her favourite playground was closed this week on security grounds
    > >
    > > Im still trying to pinpoint when adults in the UK decided to defer decision making to shildren.
    > >
    > > Were fucked if this continues.
    >
    > No we're not! There are few ten year olds I'wouldn't prefer as PM to any of the mob queuing up for the job at the moment. It's the new social awareness that bothers you. You can't keep up.
    >
    > 'Johnny what do you want to be when you leave school?'
    >
    > 'I just want to be a mother'

    I assume Johneey means "mother" in the Samuel L Jackson senses of the word ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 24,857

    Mr. HYUFD, hmm.

    Mr. B2, Trump's an arse, but the fact there's been more wibbling outrage about his visit than Xi Jinping's is ridiculous.

    +1, selective snowflake outrage.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,606
    edited June 3
    > @Roger said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > >
    >
    > Excellent tweet by Khan.

    Good to see knife crime has stopped.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 11,915
    > @Roger said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > >
    >
    > Excellent tweet by Khan.

    Indeed, the London Bridge attack was terrible.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 24,857

    > @Scott_P said:

    >





    Tory politician sez Labour politician is shit shock
    Trump certainly got it right.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 1,885
    edited June 3
    Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:

    Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)
    Labour 216 seats (-46)
    SNP 56 seats (+21)
    Conservatives 54 seats (-264)
    Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)
    Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)
    Green 1 seat (nc)
    NI 18 seats (nc)

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    #RuthForFM
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 36,659
    edited June 3
    Simon schama has turned his trump rant into a brexit rant.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 3,550
    Trump tweeting about crime in London .

    Perhaps he should concentrate on the 9000 gun murders a year in the USA . And his support for the NRA.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,380
    > @DecrepitJohnL said:
    > The OP might also have mentioned that as EdSec, Gove continued to sell off school playing fields.
    >
    IMO this is not true in any meaningful sense.

    The numbers sold , and they were often only parts anyway, dropped to essentially zero (ie about 20 per year from 25,000 schools) under New Labour, and fell further under the Coalition.

    I think it was Mr Gove that added accountability to the process.

    If you look at the actual reasons they are sold, it is usually because the school has closed or moved to a new site; perfectly acceptable and a good thing to do.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-land-decisions-about-disposals/decisions-on-the-disposal-of-school-land

    This seems mainly to be a cynical campaign by the GMB. See for example, this piece in the Indy last month:
    https://inews.co.uk/news/education/surge-number-school-playing-fields-sold-off/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 24,857

    > @Roger said:

    > > @Scott_P said:

    > >



    >

    > Excellent tweet by Khan.



    Good to see knife crime has stopped.
    Exactly , you would think he had better things to do rather than facilitate snowflakes and 16ft balloons etc. Saving the cesspit is what he is supposed to be there for.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    Here's a theory about the foreign policy politics of 'Downton Abbey' Britain.

    Us Brits are still stuck in a master/servant mentality. Having played the master up until Suez and then found ourselves like the naked emperor we realised we were to be relegated from the top table. The only response that made sense to us was to be the most dutiful servant to the new master of the house.

    It's not that we haven't found a role - it's just not one we really want to shout about as America's most loyal and obsequious courtier.

    Please note - only a theory. Don't get tooo upset.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    > @Theuniondivvie said:
    > > @Scott_P said:
    > >
    >
    >
    > But, but, but I thought in Rees-Mogg world we were supposed to respect the office, not the man?

    Doesn’t Kahn disrespect the office of the president when he called trump abhorrent the other day and erects a balloon mocking him
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,606
    > @nico67 said:
    > Trump tweeting about crime in London .
    >
    > Perhaps he should concentrate on the 9000 gun murders a year in the USA . And his support for the NRA.
    >
    >

    maybe hes just another frightened tourist
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,606
    > @malcolmg said:
    > > @Roger said:
    >
    > > > @Scott_P said:
    >
    > > >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Excellent tweet by Khan.
    >
    >
    >
    > Good to see knife crime has stopped.
    >
    > Exactly , you would think he had better things to do rather than facilitate snowflakes and 16ft balloons etc. Saving the cesspit is what he is supposed to be there for.

    Fraid so malc

    Isnt it funny how Khan cant bring himself to tell kids to go to school and protesters to sod off and give him his police force back to tackle the murder rate.
    Black lives matter my arse.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 179
    @Alistair said:

    >
    > I don't understand how Gove's reforms took on vested interests.
    >
    > They replaced local beauracrats with Westminster beauracrats and drained hundreds of thousands of pounds from the system by funnelling 'management' fees to the upper echelons of the Academy structure, in some cases fraudulently.
    >
    > How did this 'take on' teachers.

    This highlights another failing of Gove as EdSec; a surprising credulity about the people he gave power to. There are some really good heads out there, but running a single school under an LEA is a very different and much smaller job than running an academy, let alone a Multi Academy trust. For a start, it requires the honesty not to siphon off large amounts of pay for yourself and your immediate mates; something which has happened far more than it should have. Even Sir Michael Wilshaw visibly (and quite tragically) floundered when he went from running a successful school to trying to run Ofsted.

    Michael Gove has many qualities; personal courtesy, a way with words, curiosity about ideas and a willingness to say that something needs radical reform. These are wonderful in a writer of op-ed essays, and useful in politics. But the experience of education (where lots of teachers were desperate for a change in 2010) is that he isn't interested in the question "what if this plan goes wrong?". Fine in an op-ed writer, but not surely not what we need now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 36,659
    edited June 3
    Schama talking total horseshit on sky...talking about macron not wanting anything to do with trump visit...forgetting macron has hosted him and given him the full red carpet treatment.
  • isamisam Posts: 28,540
    Scott_P said:
    He's talking about the Islamic terrorism of 2017 not the Trump tweets!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    > @kjohnw said:
    > > @Theuniondivvie said:
    > > > @Scott_P said:
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > > But, but, but I thought in Rees-Mogg world we were supposed to respect the office, not the man?
    >
    > Doesn’t Kahn disrespect the office of the president when he called trump abhorrent the other day and erects a balloon mocking him

    I'm not aware of Khan erecting a balloon mocking Trump. He did refuse to intervene which is hardly the same thing. Unless you want to see politicians taking charge of what is deemed 'acceptable protest'?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 3,550
    > @kjohnw said:
    > > @Theuniondivvie said:
    > > > @Scott_P said:
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > > But, but, but I thought in Rees-Mogg world we were supposed to respect the office, not the man?
    >
    > Doesn’t Kahn disrespect the office of the president when he called trump abhorrent the other day and erects a balloon mocking him

    It’s not his balloon . He gave permission for it to be flown . Just as he gave permission for a balloon that mocked himself . Having a fight with Trump won’t cause Kahn any problems in London .
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,066
    > @StuartDickson said:
    > Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:
    >
    > Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)
    > Labour 216 seats (-46)
    > SNP 56 seats (+21)
    > Conservatives 54 seats (-264)
    > Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)
    > Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)
    > Green 1 seat (nc)
    > NI 18 seats (nc)
    >
    > https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
    >
    > #RuthForFM

    Garbage in, garbage out
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    > @FrancisUrquhart said:
    > Schama talking total horseshit on sky...talking about macron not wanting anything to do with trump visit...forgetting macron has hosted him and given him the full red carpet treatment.

    Uncle Vince wrote a decent piece for the FT pointing out that Macron had tried sycophancy but the investment banker then realised it was a waste of time.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,998
    kamski said:


    Turkey is fairly unlikely to get visa-free travel with Schengen countries (which is not the same as joining Schengen) soon, as it would have to first recognise Cyprus, according to the EU. Even if it does get visa-free travel with Schengen, it's still not going to join the EU. And it also wouldn't make it any easier for Turkish citizens to visit the UK as the UK isn't in Schengen.

    If NATO falls apart Turkey will be fast tracked into the EU at breakneck speed. Somebody has to be willing and able to fight the Russians.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 24,281
    I must say, Trump's visit, and his rather eccentric take on normal diplomatic protocol, are proving highly entertaining. Just the tonic we need.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited June 3
    > @nico67 said:
    > > @kjohnw said:
    > > > @Theuniondivvie said:
    > > > > @Scott_P said:
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > But, but, but I thought in Rees-Mogg world we were supposed to respect the office, not the man?
    > >
    > > Doesn’t Kahn disrespect the office of the president when he called trump abhorrent the other day and erects a balloon mocking him
    >
    > It’s not his balloon . He gave permission for it to be flown . Just as he gave permission for a balloon that mocked himself . Having a fight with Trump won’t cause Kahn any problems in London .

    He still called the president abhorrent and that is disrespectful to the office . He wouldn’t have called the Chinese president abhorrent even though his country has major human rights violations, but it’s okay to call the leader of the free world abhorrent is it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,634
    > @kjohnw said:
    > > @Theuniondivvie said:
    > > > @Scott_P said:
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > > But, but, but I thought in Rees-Mogg world we were supposed to respect the office, not the man?
    >
    > Doesn’t Kahn disrespect the office of the president when he called trump abhorrent the other day and erects a balloon mocking him


    Repeat very slowly after me: Rees-Mogg (and people like him) is the one saying that the office of POTUS should be respected regardless of the incumbent, a courtesy he has decided that should not be extended to the office of London mayor. Afaik 'Kahn' (sic) hasn't come away with that sort of bollox.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 2,380
    Thanks for the OP.

    I'm interested in your comments on Multi-Academy Trusts.

    Is the problem with the structure, or with the way the structure is abused? And how widespread is the problem? What % of schools in MATs are exploited in this manner?

    The MAT with which I am most familiar is run by an Anglican Diocese for currently approx 20 schools and their Annual Report says that there are more the 50 schools waiting to join.

    Is there something here about MATs being better if run by organisations at arms' length?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    > @TheWhiteRabbit said:
    > > @StuartDickson said:
    > > Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:
    > >
    > > Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)
    > > Labour 216 seats (-46)
    > > SNP 56 seats (+21)
    > > Conservatives 54 seats (-264)
    > > Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)
    > > Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)
    > > Green 1 seat (nc)
    > > NI 18 seats (nc)
    > >
    > > https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
    > >
    > > #RuthForFM
    >
    > Garbage in, garbage out

    It's amazing how Labour always seem to do well at the expense of the Liberal Democrats.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 581
    > @Dura_Ace said:
    > Turkey is fairly unlikely to get visa-free travel with Schengen countries (which is not the same as joining Schengen) soon, as it would have to first recognise Cyprus, according to the EU. Even if it does get visa-free travel with Schengen, it's still not going to join the EU. And it also wouldn't make it any easier for Turkish citizens to visit the UK as the UK isn't in Schengen.
    >
    > If NATO falls apart Turkey will be fast tracked into the EU at breakneck speed. Somebody has to be willing and able to fight the Russians.

    I think the Cypriot government may have an opinion on that.......
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,998

    Dura_Ace said:

    > @Luckyguy1983 said:

    > I disagree with posters saying the competition so far has been awful and highlighted a dearth of talent. I'd be the first to say that if I thought it were true. I think it has been pretty good, and actually brought some people to the fore (Rory Stewart, Kit Malthouse for me) who deserve to get more of a hearing.



    Rory Stewart is the candidate that the Tories need to choose, but they won't.

    His Brexit plan, as far as it can be discerned through the blizzard of memes, is just May's shit deal. Which he can't get through the HoC with a GE which he can't trigger. So he's just as fucked in the head as the rest of them.
    But, you’ll never have a good word to say about any Tory, regardless of who they are or what they do.

    The only one you seem to be equivocal on is Steve Baker, because you have an inkling of respect for his ideological purity, and probably also (unsaid) because you hope & expect the same to destroy the Conservatives as a political force.
    I have previously lavished praise on Disgraced National Security Risk Liam Fox for cancelling Nimrod MRA4.

    The Fabulous Baker Boy is the one to go for if you actually want to leave. Boris will dissemble, Gove will triangulate, Raabocop lacks the fortitude for the long march and Stewart's gap year will be over before he can get the WA through.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334
    > @Stuartinromford said:
    > @Alistair said:
    >
    > >
    > > I don't understand how Gove's reforms took on vested interests.
    > >
    > > They replaced local beauracrats with Westminster beauracrats and drained hundreds of thousands of pounds from the system by funnelling 'management' fees to the upper echelons of the Academy structure, in some cases fraudulently.
    > >
    > > How did this 'take on' teachers.
    >
    > This highlights another failing of Gove as EdSec; a surprising credulity about the people he gave power to. There are some really good heads out there, but running a single school under an LEA is a very different and much smaller job than running an academy, let alone a Multi Academy trust. For a start, it requires the honesty not to siphon off large amounts of pay for yourself and your immediate mates; something which has happened far more than it should have. Even Sir Michael Wilshaw visibly (and quite tragically) floundered when he went from running a successful school to trying to run Ofsted.
    >
    > Michael Gove has many qualities; personal courtesy, a way with words, curiosity about ideas and a willingness to say that something needs radical reform. These are wonderful in a writer of op-ed essays, and useful in politics. But the experience of education (where lots of teachers were desperate for a change in 2010) is that he isn't interested in the question "what if this plan goes wrong?". Fine in an op-ed writer, but not surely not what we need now.

    He comes across to me (I'm not a teacher) as slightly naive and credulous, his claim that the UK would hold all the cards in negotiation with the EU was and is obviously absurd but I think he genuinely believed it to be the case. Which places a huge question mark over his judgement.

    But I did hear one of the AQ panellists (Moran was it)? say he is the most treacherous man at Westminster and if that is the perception of his colleagues then I guess he will not win through.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,723
    Mr. Ace, isn't Turkey annoying the US by buying significant quantities of Russian-made anti-aircraft gear?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    Excellent article from John Harris on our divided nation - it's nice to see a media commentator who actually gets out and about around the country!

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/03/britain-remainers-no-deal-brexit-tribal-war
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 15,958
    > @Alistair said:
    > Apart from the fact this whole sorry piece is basically a vested interest attack on spmeone who tried to deal with the damage wrought by vested interests (yes, Y Doethur, I’m thinking of you there), it is also logically inconsistent. It attacks Gove for not listening and then says he was guilty of listening too much - and to the very people who in our system of Government we are told are specifically supposed to be there to advise.
    >
    > Even a cursory look at the standards of education over the last 30 or more years shows it has been getting disastrously worse since long before Gove appeared and for the teaching profession to blame him for its current ills is self serving and hypocritical.
    >
    > I don't understand how Gove's reforms took on vested interests.
    >
    > They replaced local beauracrats with Westminster beauracrats and drained hundreds of thousands of pounds from the system by funnelling 'management' fees to the upper echelons of the Academy structure, in some cases fraudulently.
    >
    > How did this 'take on' teachers.

    It gave them a different set of hoops to jump through.
    As ydoethur points out, the process was hardly consensual, so that counts as 'taking them on', I guess...

    The idea seems to have been to take on the LEAs, by replacing them entirely. That, clearly, has failed, and has instead destroyed their economies of scale. Couple that with the squeeze on LA funding, and it has left many more inadequate than before the process started.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,126
    Dura_Ace - Raabocop. That's quite funny.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,066
    > @Scott_P said:
    >

    Raab wants to digitise the Land Registry.

    Has anyone told him....?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,900
    Morning all :)

    I don't have a strong view on Gove. I do know he has the same problem all the "I refuse to accept a No Deal" brigade have. The WA is there and it won't be changed - the EU have been clear on this. Javid's nonsense about talking directly to the Irish Government explains why he should be a non-starter and none of the others have so far come up with a way out of the elephant trap into which the Conservatives blundered and fell after 2016.

    Plenty of words and "ideas" but nothing practical. Those prepared to countenance leaving without an agreed WA, whether by accident or design, only have to explain how and in what way they would mitigate the economic impact of the dislocation if it is as severe as the CBI, Bank of England and others assert. Clearly, we could take the £15 billion in the "war chest" accumulated by Hammond and piss it up the wall in the form of tax cuts (that counts Raab out as a serious runner).

    At least Gove has conceded the possibility of having to seek as further extension but the EU may not be so favourable - it seems the clamour to throw us out without a WA is growing just as the clamour to leaver without a WA is also growing.

    The Baxter prediction this morning shows the Conservatives surviving as a rump of 50 or so MPs. The Conservatives have never known what it's like to be a marginalised rump whereas the LDs and Labour do and have. The Party barely coped with being 165 MPs after 1997 - to be 54 would be traumatic in extremis.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 1,885
    > @TheWhiteRabbit said:
    > > @StuartDickson said:
    > > Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:
    > >
    > > Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)
    > > Labour 216 seats (-46)
    > > SNP 56 seats (+21)
    > > Conservatives 54 seats (-264)
    > > Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)
    > > Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)
    > > Green 1 seat (nc)
    > > NI 18 seats (nc)
    > >
    > > https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
    > >
    > > #RuthForFM
    >
    > Garbage in, garbage out

    Indeed. And vice versa: Old Tory garbage out, New Tory garbage in.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 5,406
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Mr. kinabalu, do you mean abolishing the private sector in education?
    >
    > If so, then, as well as destroying many good schools, you'd increase the workload on the state sector without increasing its resources.

    I'll get back to you with a compelling rationale. On my phone atm and this subject deserves more than that. It needs a proper desk and computer.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 179
    > @MattW said:
    > Thanks for the OP.
    >
    > I'm interested in your comments on Multi-Academy Trusts.
    >
    > Is the problem with the structure, or with the way the structure is abused? And how widespread is the problem? What % of schools in MATs are exploited in this manner?
    >
    > The MAT with which I am most familiar is run by an Anglican Diocese for currently approx 20 schools and their Annual Report says that there are more the 50 schools waiting to join.
    >
    > Is there something here about MATs being better if run by organisations at arms' length?

    That might be a part of the problem. A lot of MATs started life as a single successful school. Some were genuinely well-run, others more in the right place at the right time. The theory seemed to be that sorting out the local management would make everything good. Unfortunately, a lot of aspects of running a school don't really scale like that, and if you tell people that they are brilliant, and give them full control of the pay pot, then bad things are likely to happen.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,998

    Mr. Ace, isn't Turkey annoying the US by buying significant quantities of Russian-made anti-aircraft gear?

    NATO countries (USA, Greece, Slovakia) have done this in the past. It's very useful for training purposes and development of EW threat libraries to have the systems inside NATO.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,723
    edited June 3
    Mr. kinabalu, I look forward to the compelling attempt :p

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Ace, hmm. Fair enough.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 1,885
    > @stodge said:
    > Morning all :)
    > The Baxter prediction this morning shows the Conservatives surviving as a rump of 50 or so MPs. The Conservatives have never known what it's like to be a marginalised rump whereas the LDs and Labour do and have. The Party barely coped with being 165 MPs after 1997 - to be 54 would be traumatic in extremis.

    And the poor wee lambs would never hurt a fly.

    #Windrush
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 19,962
    > @Alistair said:
    > Apart from the fact this whole sorry piece is basically a vested interest attack on spmeone who tried to deal with the damage wrought by vested interests (yes, Y Doethur, I’m thinking of you there), it is also logically inconsistent. It attacks Gove for not listening and then says he was guilty of listening too much - and to the very people who in our system of Government we are told are specifically supposed to be there to advise.
    >
    >
    >
    > Even a cursory look at the standards of education over the last 30 or more years shows it has been getting disastrously worse since long before Gove appeared and for the teaching profession to blame him for its current ills is self serving and hypocritical.
    >
    > I don't understand how Gove's reforms took on vested interests.
    >
    > They replaced local beauracrats with Westminster beauracrats and drained hundreds of thousands of pounds from the system by funnelling 'management' fees to the upper echelons of the Academy structure, in some cases fraudulently.
    >
    > How did this 'take on' teachers.

    If his attempted reforms had been limited to getting rid of LEAs you would have a reasonable point. But they went far beyond that, not least in his attempts to make it easier to get rid of incompetant or failing teachers. Something that had proved extremly difficult to do over the previous decade.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 1,885
    > @FrankBooth said:
    > > @TheWhiteRabbit said:
    > > > @StuartDickson said:
    > > > Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:
    > > >
    > > > Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)
    > > > Labour 216 seats (-46)
    > > > SNP 56 seats (+21)
    > > > Conservatives 54 seats (-264)
    > > > Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)
    > > > Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)
    > > > Green 1 seat (nc)
    > > > NI 18 seats (nc)
    > > >
    > > > https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
    > > >
    > > > #RuthForFM
    > >
    > > Garbage in, garbage out
    >
    > It's amazing how Labour always seem to do well at the expense of the Liberal Democrats.

    Concentrated vote v spread vote
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 16,508
    > @swing_voter said:
    > > @Dura_Ace said:
    > > Turkey is fairly unlikely to get visa-free travel with Schengen countries (which is not the same as joining Schengen) soon, as it would have to first recognise Cyprus, according to the EU. Even if it does get visa-free travel with Schengen, it's still not going to join the EU. And it also wouldn't make it any easier for Turkish citizens to visit the UK as the UK isn't in Schengen.
    > >
    > > If NATO falls apart Turkey will be fast tracked into the EU at breakneck speed. Somebody has to be willing and able to fight the Russians.
    >
    > I think the Cypriot government may have an opinion on that.......

    I don't see either the Bulgarians or the Greeks being that keen, either.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,924
    We ought to question whether education actually serves any useful purpose at all. Surely all it does is indoctrinate young people with such invidious notions as concern about climate change and supporting EU membership. Perhaps a return to more deferential times - when the chap in the manor with his obvious breeding did all the thinking for us - is the productive alternative.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 4,948
    > @stodge said:
    > Morning all :)
    >
    > I don't have a strong view on Gove. I do know he has the same problem all the "I refuse to accept a No Deal" brigade have. The WA is there and it won't be changed - the EU have been clear on this. Javid's nonsense about talking directly to the Irish Government explains why he should be a non-starter and none of the others have so far come up with a way out of the elephant trap into which the Conservatives blundered and fell after 2016.
    >
    > Plenty of words and "ideas" but nothing practical. Those prepared to countenance leaving without an agreed WA, whether by accident or design, only have to explain how and in what way they would mitigate the economic impact of the dislocation if it is as severe as the CBI, Bank of England and others assert. Clearly, we could take the £15 billion in the "war chest" accumulated by Hammond and piss it up the wall in the form of tax cuts (that counts Raab out as a serious runner).
    >
    > At least Gove has conceded the possibility of having to seek as further extension but the EU may not be so favourable - it seems the clamour to throw us out without a WA is growing just as the clamour to leaver without a WA is also growing.

    Surely they would never throw us out given that we've been using the time they've already given us so wisely?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 15,958
    edited June 3
    > @MattW said:
    > Thanks for the OP.
    >
    > I'm interested in your comments on Multi-Academy Trusts.
    >
    > Is the problem with the structure, or with the way the structure is abused? And how widespread is the problem? What % of schools in MATs are exploited in this manner?
    >
    > The MAT with which I am most familiar is run by an Anglican Diocese for currently approx 20 schools and their Annual Report says that there are more the 50 schools waiting to join.
    >
    > Is there something here about MATs being better if run by organisations at arms' length?

    That would depend on the organisation, I guess.

    One of the things which ydoethur rightly objects to is the thinning out of traditional governance in MATs.
    The minimum number of governors for an academy trust (now called trustees) is three.

    Other than that, there are remarkably few constraints:
    "...The department sets very few requirements relating to the constitution of the board of Trustees of trusts into which it is prepared to enter a funding agreement. The department’s model articles of association give trusts almost complete flexibility to design the constitution of their board of trustees as they see fit in order to ensure it has the necessary skills and capacity to carry out its functions effectively:
    • the board must include at least two elected parent Trustees –a MAT may, alternatively, include two elected parents on each LGB;
    • no more than one third of the board can be employees of the trust;
    • no more than 19.9 per cent of the board can be LA associated, i.e. employees, members or officers of an LA (including teachers and headteachers of LA maintained schools) or people who are or have been within the last four years an employee, member or officer of an LA, where that LA has a responsibility for education or is a district or parish council where there is a land or other commercial relationship with the trust..."

    LGBs (local governing boards) don't have any power, and can be dispensed with entirely by the MAT board:
    https://www.nga.org.uk/News/NGA-News/Jan-April-2016/NGA-responds-to-removal-of-local-governing-bodies.aspx
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    edited June 3
    > @Roger said:
    > > @IanB2 said:
    > > > @Scott_P said:
    > > >
    > >
    > > Believe in the bin.
    >
    > Loathsome man but a much better effort than Gove. Definitely had some professional help. He didn't make the mistakes Gove did in talking about his 'achievements' other than as small asides. I just wonder whether those who don't like him will like him any better? Probably not but 7.5/10

    A chill down my spine. The bit of him speaking direct to camera was very good. The rest was not so much as listening to voters as telling them what he thinks is important.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,453

    We ought to question whether education actually serves any useful purpose at all. Surely all it does is indoctrinate young people with such invidious notions as concern about climate change and supporting EU membership. Perhaps a return to more deferential times - when the chap in the manor with his obvious breeding did all the thinking for us - is the productive alternative.

    The SNP, in fairness, are making progress in this direction. Economics has already been dropped out of the State system. Wouldn't want too many people knowing about that. English seems to be being reduced to a fan club for Jackie Kay whose doggerel is not worth the time of day but is pals with Nicola. History is mainly about how we should be ashamed of our role in the slave trade and English imperialism. I could go on.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348
    notme2 said:

    > @Roger said:

    > > @IanB2 said:

    > > > @Scott_P said:

    > > >



    > >

    > > Believe in the bin.

    >

    > Loathsome man but a much better effort than Gove. Definitely had some professional help. He didn't make the mistakes Gove did in talking about his 'achievements' other than as small asides. I just wonder whether those who don't like him will like him any better? Probably not but 7.5/10



    A chill down my spine. The bit of him speaking direct to camera was very good. The rest was not so much as listening to voters as telling them what he thinks is important.
    I'm always a bit sceptical when people say ' not listening to voters', as it often seems to mean: 'not listening to me!'

    The public are split on a whole host of issues: from Brexit, to the environment, to criminal justice. Politicians have to negotiate these different views and come up with an answer that hopefully not only satisfies a majority, but is also the right thing for the country. Just because that is not what an individual wants on a particular issue, does not automatically mean that they're not listening. It's just that they're listening to a myriad of different voices.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,622
    > @StuartDickson said:
    > > @FrankBooth said:
    > > > @TheWhiteRabbit said:
    > > > > @StuartDickson said:
    > > > > Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:
    > > > >
    > > > > Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)
    > > > > Labour 216 seats (-46)
    > > > > SNP 56 seats (+21)
    > > > > Conservatives 54 seats (-264)
    > > > > Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)
    > > > > Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)
    > > > > Green 1 seat (nc)
    > > > > NI 18 seats (nc)
    > > > >
    > > > > https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
    > > > >
    > > > > #RuthForFM
    > > >
    > > > Garbage in, garbage out
    > >
    > > It's amazing how Labour always seem to do well at the expense of the Liberal Democrats.
    >
    > Concentrated vote v spread vote

    Why there is any sense in rewarding a party whose supporters live close to each other remains a mystery. Personally I'd give the premium to broadly rather than deeply spread support.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,453
    notme2 said:

    > @Roger said:

    > > @IanB2 said:

    > > > @Scott_P said:

    > > >



    > >

    > > Believe in the bin.

    >

    > Loathsome man but a much better effort than Gove. Definitely had some professional help. He didn't make the mistakes Gove did in talking about his 'achievements' other than as small asides. I just wonder whether those who don't like him will like him any better? Probably not but 7.5/10



    A chill down my spine. The bit of him speaking direct to camera was very good. The rest was not so much as listening to voters as telling them what he thinks is important.
    Yes, a good effort. I think he means it this time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,622
    > @Chris said:
    > > @stodge said:
    > > Morning all :)
    > >
    > > I don't have a strong view on Gove. I do know he has the same problem all the "I refuse to accept a No Deal" brigade have. The WA is there and it won't be changed - the EU have been clear on this. Javid's nonsense about talking directly to the Irish Government explains why he should be a non-starter and none of the others have so far come up with a way out of the elephant trap into which the Conservatives blundered and fell after 2016.
    > >
    > > Plenty of words and "ideas" but nothing practical. Those prepared to countenance leaving without an agreed WA, whether by accident or design, only have to explain how and in what way they would mitigate the economic impact of the dislocation if it is as severe as the CBI, Bank of England and others assert. Clearly, we could take the £15 billion in the "war chest" accumulated by Hammond and piss it up the wall in the form of tax cuts (that counts Raab out as a serious runner).
    > >
    > > At least Gove has conceded the possibility of having to seek as further extension but the EU may not be so favourable - it seems the clamour to throw us out without a WA is growing just as the clamour to leaver without a WA is also growing.
    >
    > Surely they would never throw us out given that we've been using the time they've already given us so wisely?

    Yes, Gove is Mr Glenn's best friend
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 27,453
    On to much more serious matters, am I alone in being slightly nervous about Pakistan today? They have had such an abysmal run, got blown away by the Windies but always have that one performance in them. They are off to a goodish start.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334
    > @Chris said:
    > > @stodge said:
    > > Morning all :)
    > >
    > > I don't have a strong view on Gove. I do know he has the same problem all the "I refuse to accept a No Deal" brigade have. The WA is there and it won't be changed - the EU have been clear on this. Javid's nonsense about talking directly to the Irish Government explains why he should be a non-starter and none of the others have so far come up with a way out of the elephant trap into which the Conservatives blundered and fell after 2016.
    > >
    > > Plenty of words and "ideas" but nothing practical. Those prepared to countenance leaving without an agreed WA, whether by accident or design, only have to explain how and in what way they would mitigate the economic impact of the dislocation if it is as severe as the CBI, Bank of England and others assert. Clearly, we could take the £15 billion in the "war chest" accumulated by Hammond and piss it up the wall in the form of tax cuts (that counts Raab out as a serious runner).
    > >
    > > At least Gove has conceded the possibility of having to seek as further extension but the EU may not be so favourable - it seems the clamour to throw us out without a WA is growing just as the clamour to leaver without a WA is also growing.
    >
    > Surely they would never throw us out given that we've been using the time they've already given us so wisely?

    Well yes but I doubt the EU would want to set a precedent by throwing out a member, however stupid that member may be. Having the UK a supplicant waiting upon their pleasure is better than imposing the damage of no deal on their economies. So when the new PM goes cap in hand to them in October the likelihood is that they will be graciously please to grant a further extension.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,634
    > @DavidL said:
    > We ought to question whether education actually serves any useful purpose at all. Surely all it does is indoctrinate young people with such invidious notions as concern about climate change and supporting EU membership. Perhaps a return to more deferential times - when the chap in the manor with his obvious breeding did all the thinking for us - is the productive alternative.
    >
    > The SNP, in fairness, are making progress in this direction. Economics has already been dropped out of the State system. Wouldn't want too many people knowing about that. English seems to be being reduced to a fan club for Jackie Kay whose doggerel is not worth the time of day but is pals with Nicola. History is mainly about how we should be ashamed of our role in the slave trade and English imperialism. I could go on.


    You seem a little jaundiced, has the current state of the UK (which you appear to have voted into being) reduced you to coarse caricature?

    I'm sort of clear over Ruth's latest position on school testing (with her usual admirable consistency, it's entirely different from her previous one), but any updates on the brave, new policies that are going to energise the debate on Scottish education? Is one of them *whispers* No to indy ref II?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 77,962
    DavidL said:

    On to much more serious matters, am I alone in being slightly nervous about Pakistan today? They have had such an abysmal run, got blown away by the Windies but always have that one performance in them. They are off to a goodish start.

    Waves from Trent Bridge.

    Why didn’t Morgan choose to bat first on the pitch where England have scored 481 and 444 batting first in their last two visits?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 5,406
    Oh god the appalling orange one is all over the news. Even worse, with where I live I will be oppressed with the noise of that ridiculous copter - Marine One - flying overhead hither and thither for the next 3 days.

    Think I might go to the demo tomorrow. See if I can get in close and deliver an egg or a milkshake.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 24,281
    edited June 3
    The Boris video is very good indeed. Well done Lynton Crosby.

    What's interesting about it is that it is like a party political broadcast (but a very good one), rather than anything much to do with the issues the new leader will face. The only real commitment is to leave the EU on the 31st October. A very foolish commitment, repeating the exact same mistake Theresa May made with insisting we'd leave on the 29th March - something which wasn't in her control. It's a commitment which will probably win Boris the premiership, and rapidly prove the undoing of his premiership.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    We ought to question whether education actually serves any useful purpose at all. Surely all it does is indoctrinate young people with such invidious notions as concern about climate change and supporting EU membership. Perhaps a return to more deferential times - when the chap in the manor with his obvious breeding did all the thinking for us - is the productive alternative.

    We tried that with David Cameron and look where it got us.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,622
    > @anothernick said:
    > > @Chris said:
    > > > @stodge said:
    > > > Morning all :)
    > > >
    > > > I don't have a strong view on Gove. I do know he has the same problem all the "I refuse to accept a No Deal" brigade have. The WA is there and it won't be changed - the EU have been clear on this. Javid's nonsense about talking directly to the Irish Government explains why he should be a non-starter and none of the others have so far come up with a way out of the elephant trap into which the Conservatives blundered and fell after 2016.
    > > >
    > > > Plenty of words and "ideas" but nothing practical. Those prepared to countenance leaving without an agreed WA, whether by accident or design, only have to explain how and in what way they would mitigate the economic impact of the dislocation if it is as severe as the CBI, Bank of England and others assert. Clearly, we could take the £15 billion in the "war chest" accumulated by Hammond and piss it up the wall in the form of tax cuts (that counts Raab out as a serious runner).
    > > >
    > > > At least Gove has conceded the possibility of having to seek as further extension but the EU may not be so favourable - it seems the clamour to throw us out without a WA is growing just as the clamour to leaver without a WA is also growing.
    > >
    > > Surely they would never throw us out given that we've been using the time they've already given us so wisely?
    >
    > Well yes but I doubt the EU would want to set a precedent by throwing out a member, however stupid that member may be. Having the UK a supplicant waiting upon their pleasure is better than imposing the damage of no deal on their economies. So when the new PM goes cap in hand to them in October the likelihood is that they will be graciously please to grant a further extension.

    It suggests Gove thinks he might win, and knows that after summer and the party conferences there is no time left. If he doesn't win he will be proved right, to the embarrassment of the victor.

    Having his wife in downing Street is not a pleasant thought.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 24,281

    We ought to question whether education actually serves any useful purpose at all. Surely all it does is indoctrinate young people with such invidious notions as concern about climate change and supporting EU membership. Perhaps a return to more deferential times - when the chap in the manor with his obvious breeding did all the thinking for us - is the productive alternative.

    We tried that with David Cameron and look where it got us.
    No, it was when voters stopped deferring to David Cameron that things went wrong.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,998
    kinabalu said:

    Oh god the appalling orange one is all over the news. Even worse, with where I live I will be oppressed with the noise of that ridiculous copter - Marine One - flying overhead hither and thither for the next 3 days.



    Think I might go to the demo tomorrow. See if I can get in close and deliver an egg or a milkshake.

    I salute the sentiment but you'll probably get lit the fuck up by the USS.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,634
    edited June 3
    > @Richard_Nabavi said:
    > We ought to question whether education actually serves any useful purpose at all. Surely all it does is indoctrinate young people with such invidious notions as concern about climate change and supporting EU membership. Perhaps a return to more deferential times - when the chap in the manor with his obvious breeding did all the thinking for us - is the productive alternative.
    >
    > We tried that with David Cameron and look where it got us.
    >
    > No, it was when voters stopped deferring to David Cameron that things went wrong.


    A dangerously modern outlook. The Great Reform Act was when it all started going Pete Tong.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 1,645
    > @StuartDickson said:
    > > @TheWhiteRabbit said:
    > > > @StuartDickson said:
    > > > Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:
    > > >
    > > > Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)
    > > > Labour 216 seats (-46)
    > > > SNP 56 seats (+21)
    > > > Conservatives 54 seats (-264)
    > > > Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)
    > > > Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)
    > > > Green 1 seat (nc)
    > > > NI 18 seats (nc)
    > > >
    > > > https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
    > > >
    > > > #RuthForFM
    > >
    > > Garbage in, garbage out
    >
    > Indeed. And vice versa: Old Tory garbage out, New Tory garbage in.
    _________________

    A compelling argument for PR.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 51,723
    Mr. Voter, PR is the work of Satan. An already fragmenting body politic does not need the insanity of a system that permanently embeds such fragmentation.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 9,672
    > @DavidL said:
    > On to much more serious matters, am I alone in being slightly nervous about Pakistan today? They have had such an abysmal run, got blown away by the Windies but always have that one performance in them. They are off to a goodish start.

    Absolutely right to be.... we could be 'spursy' too just to keep my week of sporting lows going.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    The Boris video is very good indeed. Well done Lynton Crosby.



    What's interesting about it is that it is like a party political broadcast (but a very good one), rather than anything much to do with the issues the new leader will face. The only real commitment is to leave the EU on the 31st October. A very foolish commitment, repeating the exact same mistake Theresa May made with insisting we'd leave on the 29th March - something which wasn't in her control. It's a commitment which will probably win Boris the premiership, and rapidly prove the undoing of his premiership.

    Is there anything significant in the end note that it is from Zac Goldsmith? It looks almost as if it is designed to get round some campaign rule or other but surely there are none?
  • glwglw Posts: 5,511

    I bet queenie is really looking forward to today....

    She probably is, there will be some subtle symbolism or words that will pass right over Trump's head but that indicate the true level of esteem that the Queen has for Trump.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334
    > @IanB2 said:
    > > @anothernick said:
    > > > @Chris said:
    > > > > @stodge said:
    > > > > Morning all :)
    > > > >
    > > > > I don't have a strong view on Gove. I do know he has the same problem all the "I refuse to accept a No Deal" brigade have. The WA is there and it won't be changed - the EU have been clear on this. Javid's nonsense about talking directly to the Irish Government explains why he should be a non-starter and none of the others have so far come up with a way out of the elephant trap into which the Conservatives blundered and fell after 2016.
    > > > >
    > > > > Plenty of words and "ideas" but nothing practical. Those prepared to countenance leaving without an agreed WA, whether by accident or design, only have to explain how and in what way they would mitigate the economic impact of the dislocation if it is as severe as the CBI, Bank of England and others assert. Clearly, we could take the £15 billion in the "war chest" accumulated by Hammond and piss it up the wall in the form of tax cuts (that counts Raab out as a serious runner).
    > > > >
    > > > > At least Gove has conceded the possibility of having to seek as further extension but the EU may not be so favourable - it seems the clamour to throw us out without a WA is growing just as the clamour to leaver without a WA is also growing.
    > > >
    > > > Surely they would never throw us out given that we've been using the time they've already given us so wisely?
    > >
    > > Well yes but I doubt the EU would want to set a precedent by throwing out a member, however stupid that member may be. Having the UK a supplicant waiting upon their pleasure is better than imposing the damage of no deal on their economies. So when the new PM goes cap in hand to them in October the likelihood is that they will be graciously please to grant a further extension.
    >
    > It suggests Gove thinks he might win, and knows that after summer and the party conferences there is no time left. If he doesn't win he will be proved right, to the embarrassment of the victor.
    >
    > Having his wife in downing Street is not a pleasant thought.

    Gove seems to engender suspicion and mistrust, and often outright hatred, amongst all those who have dealings with him so his chances of making a successful PM must be slim.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,924

    Martin Baxter’s Electoral Calculus has just updated the headline prediction:



    Brexit Party 249 seats (+249)

    Labour 216 seats (-46)

    SNP 56 seats (+21)

    Conservatives 54 seats (-264)

    Lib Dems 51 seats (+39)

    Plaid Cymru 5 seats (+1)

    Green 1 seat (nc)

    NI 18 seats (nc)



    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html



    #RuthForFM

    When TBP wins the next general election who will actually be our PM? Is Nigel contesting a seat or will he be overseeing things from outside parliament?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 21,622
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Mr. Voter, PR is the work of Satan. An already fragmenting body politic does not need the insanity of a system that permanently embeds such fragmentation.

    No, Satan prefers his acolytes in safe seats.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 24,281

    Is there anything significant in the end note that it is from Zac Goldsmith? It looks almost as if it is designed to get round some campaign rule or other but surely there are none?

    I think it's just a formality because of the rules on political ads.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 5,406
    > @Dura_Ace said:

    > I salute the sentiment but you'll probably get lit the fuck up by the USS.

    Point noted and very much taken.

    So what I might do is get my shot off and then sprint away and hide behind Owen Jones.

    The goons won't mess with Owen.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 16,634
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Mr. Voter, PR is the work of Satan. An already fragmenting body politic does not need the insanity of a system that permanently embeds such fragmentation.


    What does that already fragmenting body politic need?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 9,512
    > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > Mr. Voter, PR is the work of Satan. An already fragmenting body politic does not need the insanity of a system that permanently embeds such fragmentation.

    If you are happy with a party getting an overall majority on 35% of the vote, then fine.

    I find it an affront to democracy. Even when my team wins.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 1,535
    > @Stark_Dawning said:
    > We ought to question whether education actually serves any useful purpose at all. Surely all it does is indoctrinate young people with such invidious notions as concern about climate change and supporting EU membership. Perhaps a return to more deferential times - when the chap in the manor with his obvious breeding did all the thinking for us - is the productive alternative.

    Surely this must be trolling. Even if we exclude in-job training from "Education" and focus on school and university education, civilisation in the UK would rapidly disintegrate if there was no education.

    Just for starters we would run out of doctors. All new doctors would need to be educated overseas and brought to the UK. How many overseas doctors do you think would want to move to a country with such a policy. All financial, IT and engineering businesses would go to the dogs, foreign competitors would soon out-compete the UK, and a large number of British employees would move overseas, there would be no young people with the skills to take their place.

    The two most important advances in the last 150 years in the UK, the developed world and the developing world has been the advance of heath care/medicine and universal education. As said above, you need education to get the medical advances. Even the bottom 5% in terms of educational ability is way way more educated than the bottom 5% in Victorian times, and the whole of society benefits from this.

    Do you still doubt that Education serves a purpose?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 6,294
    Good piece @ydoethur. I left the education sector before these reforms, but the views above concur with most teachers of my acquaintance.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 11,915
    > @SandyRentool said:
    > > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > > Mr. Voter, PR is the work of Satan. An already fragmenting body politic does not need the insanity of a system that permanently embeds such fragmentation.
    >
    > If you are happy with a party getting an overall majority on 35% of the vote, then fine.
    >
    > I find it an affront to democracy. Even when my team wins.

    I know AV isn't PR - and I still don't know why the Lib Dems accepted that as the alternative to FPTP - but were you not a bit annoyed when Ed Miliband didn't come out in favour of AV?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 55,705
    edited June 3

    > @Morris_Dancer said:

    > Mr. Voter, PR is the work of Satan. An already fragmenting body politic does not need the insanity of a system that permanently embeds such fragmentation.



    If you are happy with a party getting an overall majority on 35% of the vote, then fine.



    I find it an affront to democracy. Even when my team wins.

    Everyone is in favour of PR till they're suddenly Prime Minister on ~35% of the vote... Johnson, Corbyn or Nige will be no different.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 9,512
    > @tlg86 said:
    > > @SandyRentool said:
    > > > @Morris_Dancer said:
    > > > Mr. Voter, PR is the work of Satan. An already fragmenting body politic does not need the insanity of a system that permanently embeds such fragmentation.
    > >
    > > If you are happy with a party getting an overall majority on 35% of the vote, then fine.
    > >
    > > I find it an affront to democracy. Even when my team wins.
    >
    > I know AV isn't PR - and I still don't know why the Lib Dems accepted that as the alternative to FPTP - but were you not a bit annoyed when Ed Miliband didn't come out in favour of AV?

    Not at all. Voting against AV was a way to kick the LibDems where it hurts and I took full advantage.
This discussion has been closed.